People have to use their discrimination, or else they don't have minds. Homosexuality is mental illness, and a social disease. It's right for Baha'is to discourage it.
@DivineFellowship Oh great a white European supremacist agreeing with the homophobic stance of the Bahai community. If that isn't proof enough that the Bahais are wrong on this issue, then I don't know what is.
Is all you got is Orwellian newspeak and propaganda buzzwords? I've never met a "European supremacist." I have have no idea what you're babbling about. Are you a gay supremacist? I have also never met anybody who has a clinical mental illness or irrational fear regarding homosexuality (a "phobia"). That's Orwellian Newspeak invented by a radical gay activist. I've met people with dislike, disgust, aversion, disagreement with gays, but never anybody with a "phobia" regarding them. Grow up.
Baha'is will eventually become corrupt regarding their moral position. That's inevitable when you are embarassed about your "Book of Laws" and don't even follow it for the first 150 years of your growth. A religion gets way off the rails that way. I mean, Baha'is still don't even do falcon hunting properly, and they hardly ever wear sable.
Just last month the Iranian regime executed 3 men for 'lawat' - sex between two men. Hmmm, what other religion considers lawat sex between two consenting same sex adults and punishes them for it? Yes, the Bahai Faith. The degree of punishment is different, but the ostracizing and outcasting is all the same. In either case, stay in the closet (deep in the closet) and you will be ok. Otherwise face death or in the Bahai case have your rights removed.
This is one of the reasons I left Bahai after 20 years. I could not stand the discrimination perpetrated by a community which is, itself, all too willing to shout from the rooftops how its members in Iran (and elsewhere) are persecuted while they themselves persecute Queer people. I am against ALL forms of discrimination (religious, sexual, racial, etc.) and there was absolutely no room for me in the Bahai community. I seek a LOVING community, not a rigid, narrow-minded one.
@GreenRad2012 Bahai's are clearly taught in scripture not to discriminate. It is a personal choice whether to become Baha'i or not, and even as a Baha'i again it is a choice whether you are to decide to engage in homosexual behaviour or not. It is left to the concience of the believer. Bahai's do not drink alcohol either yet we do not force this moral standard on others, when someone CHOOSES to become a Baha'i they choose to sacrifice their right to drink/practice as a homosexual.
@GreenRad2012 I believe you are very ignorant in attempting to draw similarities between Bahai's being persecuted in Iran to the treatment of homosexuals. THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A COUNTRY ACTIVELY KILLING/IMPRISONING/VIOLATING THE RIGHTS OF A MINORITY SUCH AS THE BAHAI'S IN IRAN VERSE DOCTRINE WHICH FORBIDS HOMOSEXUAL BEHAVIOUR. The Baha'i stance is homosexual acts are immoral, we do not force this morality on anyone nor do we force anyone to become a Baha'i.
@nickyaz111 Bahais don't need to live in Iran. They can leave. Just as gay Bahais can leave the Bahai community. It is EXACTLY the same thing; with the exception of the degree of punishment. If you could only see with your own eyes and not the eyes of others. Justice seems to have been replaced by blind dogma among Bahais such as yourself. Sad!
@PeyBar The current punishment for a gay person who decides to marry his partner and raise a family is to have his voting rights removed by the Bahai administration. This essentially means that the individual has no right to have his voice heard in the decision making process inside the Bahai community and participate actively in the community. Essentially making the person a second class citizen as are Bahais in Iran.
But worse than the punishment itself is the unwelcoiming spirit inside most Bahai communities towards LGBT people. There are good Bahais and maybe some good communities were individuals live and let live. But the majority play the Don't' Ask Don't Tell game. So if you are a closeted, self-hating homosexual who thinks that you are diseased, then the Bahai community is a perfect place to worship. Otherwise, it is a truly toxic environment for most gays.
@nickyaz111 Unless the Bahai Faith is your home; stronger than your sense of country. Then essentially, yes you are in exile from your community, from your home because you have deiced to be true to yourself and love the person GOd intended for you. FOr this you are punished by the Bahais and told to go worship on your own. Yes, in my mind (a 5th generation Bahai) and many others, it is no different from Iran pressuring Bahais due to religion; only the type of punishment is the difference.
@nickyaz111 And btw, how many Bahais have been killed in Iran since the Revolution? 200 or so? How many people for the crime of homosexuality? A few thousand for sure! Have you ever heard the Bahai administration EVER condemn those killings? They have spoken up about religious discrimination in Iran, but never in regards to LGBT people. Why? I'm not belittling the plight of the Bahais in Iran, trust me. But I do find it a bit hypocritical to not give a damn about LGBT people dying in Iran.
@PeyBar rofl, so people should just leave their country of birth because they want to follow a religion? and if Bahai's could just leave they would... no.. the only option they have is to put their lives at even more risk and attempt to be smuggled out of the country
@nickyaz111 No actually I have family that has left and lives in the US; she goes back every year or so. But see, you are again missing the point, because you have hard time understanding the word "JUSTICE". No one should have their human rights taken away for the religion that they follow. The current Bahai community has created a community and wants to create a world where gay families are considered second class citizens. Until that changes, criticism will continue.
homosexualit is forbidden in all faiths.....ummm..in he bahai faith and in islam....it is said that..its okay that your gay or lesbian...but what makes the difference..is if you act on it. I'ts not something that ou should act upon. Also it is said in both islam and the bahai faith...your not help accountable for your thoughts..but for your actions.........so i dont think its riight for you to say that bahais are againts Gays n stuff becuase in that ase..every religion is agaisnt gays........
@rebrat90 Where is it forbidden in Islam or Christianity or Judaism? Or in the words of Bahaullah? If you are referring to the story of Sodom or the myriad of words that refer to Sodomy- then that is not what we are talking about. Everyone is against forced sex on someone else- rape. This is what sodomy meant in those writings. The concept of two men or women being monogomous and having a family in today's world is very different from what was forbidden by those Books. Educate yourself please!
@dffykvn whats the point of you putting videos up an dleaving it open for people to comment if your gonna curse me out? ...becuase i dont agree with you?? i didnt agree with you and i wasnt nasty towards you...have some class buddy
@dffykvn its cool.....but i stills tand by what say....in those religions thers no talk of those people going to hell or anything...........people make that up..the whole gay people r going to hell and thats what the bible says and stuff..its not true.....
I'm not gay but I had a friend that was gay that was kicked out of his home because his parents said it was against their religion
Others were shouted at by fundies in my school
The people who say gays are abominations in the eyes of god are hand in hand with the people that kick gays out of homes, make discriminatory laws against them, let police arrest gays for consensual sex (happens in texas), because they don't denounce discrimination they're a part of it
@rebrat90 The anti gay stuff is hate speech whether the person is just a regular person who finds gay sex distasteful or as far gone as the people that murder gays
The anti gay preachers in america funded a law in uganda to MURDER gay people
They can't do it in america so they're murdering gays for jesus in uganda
You might not be as far gone as those people, but you're on their side while they say hateful things about gays which leads to them to being ostracized and sometimes suicide
@rebrat90 Religions might say the same thing on many different issues, but what makes a religious person a good person to me is how much they embrace the good of their various holy books and how much ancient outdated bigoted nonsense they ignore
@dffykvn im just saying that in all religions its something that its known ,and something u shoudnt act upon. Now even though people say you will go to hell in stuff theyre wrong becuz how do you know what God will do to you? no one knows.........not priest ,not pastors..no one..so they cant say that people who r gay are going to hell. just like doing drugs.....i know its not allowed in religions but does that mean your going to hell?.....no...
@rebrat90 What do you mean by "all religions"? There are many that disagree with that statement- and they happen to be faithful Christians, Moslems and yes even Bahais. It's all on how the religion is interpreted. I refuse to believe your statement. It may seem innocent what you say, but it is not. The self-hate and hopelessness that is created among young, impressionable minds is wrong. Do you understand what I am saying? When you state con't:
@PeyBar When you state that all religions consider acting on homosexuality as wrong, this feeds the depression, thoughts of suicide, etc. that a young vulnerable person is feeling. We are here to tell that young person that NO, don't believe the fundamentalists in every religion that believe it's their way or the highway. Many in various religions are here to tell young people that God wants to them to love and be loved in a relationship just as much as straight people.
@PeyBar whose making thes epeople hate themselves and seem helpless???.....u want to change the word of God to your own and thats the problem. In no religion it says people who are gay will go to hell..i n no book it says that..it one thing for people to believe that but its another if it says that in any holy book....and it doesnt. And who determines how faithful a person is? becuz u pray all the time or always going to church????... it really doesnt matter what the people say..the books matter
The true marriage of Bahá'ís is this, that husband and wife should be united both physically and spiritually, that they may ever improve the spiritual life of each other, and may enjoy everlasting unity throughout all the worlds of God (Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 118)
The House of Justice can change it's own laws, but not change those put down in the "sacred texts," those of Baha'u'llah and Abdul'baha. That's the truth as best I know it.
@aaronlee75 .Truth can be understood out of the black/white box that you insist on. That's your choice. The concept of a same sex couple raising kids was completely outside of that box; it wasn't even a question that would have been asked. Times have changed .This may be why the UHJ in a recent letter said Bahais shouldn't ask a gay couple to divorce in ordert to become Bahais. But I haven't seen the letter myself. Anyway, shame that Bahais are not in the forefront of justice.
@PeyBar If you wish to take part in this experiment in social engineering, then fine...I can't rationaly say no. Be careful, though, for we don't know what the secondary consequences may be.
Just as in a polygamist marriage, the Faith wouldn't ask them to disolve the marriage...I, as an individual and looking at this precident, would say that it's unlikely that the faith would ask a same sex couple to disolve their marriage if they became Baha'is...for existing baha'is the rules seem clear.
@PeyBar Please note that these are for me..."Dissension and strife have always been, and shall remain, rejected by God." & "Let none contend with another..." (quotes from Baha'u'llah). I fear that perhaps I have been heading down the road of contention. If so, I'm sorry. I've said all that I need to say anyway. To say more would do little to advance this conversation and wouldn't change either of our POVs. Good luck with your path. I hope you find resolution one way or another. Peace
@aaronlee75 Thanks, I have already found a resolution. It's called keeping things honest, real and open. Wether or not I am every welcome in the Bahai community, makes no difference. But my sense of justice (which again is what Bahaullah came for this world for) will not allow me to keep silent. So if a Bahai in her position in Malaysia makes anti-gay and utterly homophobic remarks, maybe you think it's ok to not say anything. I don't. THAT is not rejected by God. Peace!
In a divorce case involving infidelity, the unfaithful spouse generally would lose everything.
"...like some Cahtolic priest do..." unfortunately implies pedephilia. Pediphilia of course would be routed out...no way accepted.
Baha'i law tends to be very consistant in regards to carrying one principle over to a similar problem. One that comes to mind is where a polygamist would decide to become a Baha'i.
The Baha'i Faith prescribes monogamy. In the case of someone in a polygamist marriage wanting to become a Baha'i...the Faith would not ask him/her to absolve that marriage. They wouldn't be asked to destroy the marriage and family that was in place allready. That dosen't mean that someone who was a Baha'i would be given the OK to enter into a polygamist marriage after the fact.
It'd be interesting to see how this principle might apply to pre-existing same sex marriages.
@aaronlee75 A Bahai could leave the Faith, enter into a legal marriage with someone of the same-sex and the Bahai community would have to accept it. From a recent letter from the UHJ, it seems like that is what they are saying. Basically don't ask the couple to divorce, but explain to them the law. It's not much, but it's a start. Better than hiding in the closet, right aaron?
@aaronlee75 Not true. Some gay men become Catholic Priests because it is their option to not get married and deal with their sexuality. Has nothing to do with pedephilia. What I am getting at is that the Bahai community can accept you adulterer, gay, whatever as long as you keep in the closet as doews the Cahtolic church. You understand well enough Aaron from your personal messages to me. BUT, the Bahai community freaks out when it has to deal with open gay families. THAT is the injustice.
@PeyBar Well, the Baha'i definition of marriage is a 100+ year old doctrine that the House of Justice has no power to repeal or change. Sadly, vey sadly, that is something that gay or bi Baha'is have to deal with. I learned to personally. I've known some people who have had too much of a moral objection to it, and left the Faith, while still staying friends with it.
Why might it be immoral? We can only guess. Baha'u'llah claimed to be God's messenger and to see the future. We can't know.
@aaronlee75 It comes down to a matter of faith. Did Baha'u'llah see the future, and see a reason for it to be banned...see it as a source of harm for some reason?
Also, if you're going to place a limit on sexual expression where do you do it? Unless it's totally open, someone will feel that it's not fair. It's a very very hard choice. Do we decide if it's us, or if it's God, that decides morality?
@aaronlee75 Yes, Faith that Bahaullah came to this world for justice and peace. Not to establish Sharia law as the mullahs in Iran have done. If that is your vision of the Bahai Faith, then friend you are no Bahai. You place limit on family. Polygamy is accepted in the Bahai Faith because there are cultures where polygamy is accepted, where functioning families are built. This the problem with the Bahais such as yourself. You don't see the distinction between family and pure sex.
It is easy to when you are closeted and enjoying your sexuality behind closed doors, to see it all in a fundamentalist black/white fashion. Just make it all about sex. Not about the beautiful families that are created. Or the kids that are adopted and raised. Just keep focusing it back on sex so that you can continue the status qujo. The staus quo obviously works for you. God is on the side of justice. Does it advance civilization or not?
@aaronlee75 Actually no, it's not 100+ years old. Bahai "law" was meant to be applied according to the needs of humanity. Bahai "law" channels sexual energy into the instution of marriage for the benefit of society. IN order to establish family and stability. This can also include gay couples. At this point in history, the Bahai community and its administration has decided it won't accept gay families.
@aaronlee75 Again Bahaullah channelled sexual energy into the instution of marriage. In His day, the definition was man and woman (or women). That is all. That is why He allowed a man to have up to two women. The idea of two men being together, raising kids? It didn't even come up. Only in the last few decades have we seen the fruits of such gay families- beautiful kids who do advance civilization (sometimes much more than Bahai kids). So you can accept the status quo.
@PeyBar But I am not willing to accept the status quo. And if there is to be no change as you claim. Well then, at least let's do the honorable thing as this video is doing and call a spade a spade. Make sure the world knows what the Bahai community truly thinks of gay people (such as the quote from that Bahai authority in Malaysia). Stop with the lies and the pretty facade of tolerance. Tell the truth please
@PeyBar The laws of Baha'ullah cannot be changed, why would you call yourself Baha'i when you know that? If you believe that are wrong, renounce your faith buddy.
@shaztekk Shaztek I am a Bahai because I believe in Bahaullah, in His vision of justice and not a religion of fudnamentalism. But how exactly do you argue this with someone who uses Ligths of Guidance as their guide to lving their life. Oh lord! Consultation with you would be like consulting with an evangelical Christian who uses the Bible in a literal fashion. You both are absolutely no different. Only the Bahais like you pretend to be so "tolerant" towards gay people. You are not.
@PeyBar You disregard Bahau'allahs law, Abul-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, and the many UHJ's that have been, I am not a fundamentalist, it is a STRICT LAW in that Baha'i faith THAT YOU CANNOT HAVE A SEXUAL RELATIONSHIP WITH ANOTHER MAN OR WOMAN. Like aaronlee said, the UHJ cannot change Bahau'allahs laws! You are a very impolite person, why don't you go drink/gamble/do drugs and say that's allowed too!
@shaztekk Nope, haven't disregarded anything since I am not having sex with slave boys. I respect that the UHJ makes laws that are not in the Book. BUT they are not God as you like to believe. They are 9 men with ultimate authority to lead the Faith- that's all. So stop worshipping administration. And please why don't you stop with your self-righteousness, that is against the Faith you know? And why don't you believe in religion and science agreeing? That is also part of the Faith. Forgot those?
@PeyBar HUH! you mention science when the behavioral pattern induced in Homosexuals goes against the genetic order involved in natures way, an enlargement of the Hypothalmus (sexual part of the brain) has been proven as the reason for (true) homosexuality. Scientific enough?
@shaztekk Keep posting my friend. You are doing a WAY better job at proving my point of the fundamentalist type of people that currently exist inside the Bahai community. Better than anything I can write or say. Sad, but thanks, maybe by shining a light on the problem it will help bring change. More than likely it will just make you people turn the community into momre of an inward looking cultish group,, rather than embracing ALL of humanity. Oh well...
If anyone cares; an official view point held since 1955 regarding homosexuality, was that it was an issue only if it was flagrantly demostrated in the community.
On a personal level, this means that if one keeps such a relationship private, then their actions are between them and God..
This is one way in which some gay Baha'is deal with it.
Ultimately we all answer only to God for our own actions.
Censure "should only be resorted to in very flagrant cases."
@aaronlee75 And by flagaranlty what aaronlee means are two loving people in a committed relationship raising a family. But if you are closeted, cheating on your straight spouse and basically keeping everything hidden (sort of like some Catholic priests do), then aaronlee is right, you are more than welcome in the Bahai community. The "law" may be changing some. A new letter from the UHJ says that gay couples who are officially married in some societies are not to be asked to divorce....
@PeyBar if they want to become Bahais. But just explained that they are not supposed to have sex while together. So maybe things are getting better- God willing. BUt unfortunately this tone of change is more due to society become more tolerant, not so much the Bahai community leading justice. Shouldn't it be the other way around? "The best of all to Me is Justice."
@aaronlee75 Again this is the problem. Someone like Aaron should understand the mental/emotional toll that a policy of Don't Ask Don't Tell takes on people. But the mental/spritual health of people, theeir happiness does not matter to a literalist. The letter of the "law" is all that matters. It's the same scenario with other fundamentalists in other religions. No different among Bahais. How exactly pray tell do two fathers raising a child keep their lives private?
And IF they UHJ is truly free from error (as in God makes no mistakes), then why elect UHJ members? Wouldn't those 9 men be better suited at electing the next members? And the Bahai fund, why don't they pick the Lotto and win; and stop asking poor Bahais for more money all the time? The reason is they are not infallible. They are just the ultimate leaders and to create another UHJ is wrong and against the Covenant. That's all, so don't read more into it. Don't go down the road of a cult- please!
But what is scary of aaronlee's comments is how stifling it is. He just subtly tried to threaten me by alluding to what I'm doing is close to breaking trhe covenant. I can p;ost his private message if anyone is interested. THIS is how free thought and expression is treated INSIDE the Bahai community. And this is why I choose to be inactive and worship on my own. Mindless sheep is NOT what Bahaullah intended. Sorry aaron- you are wrong in how you understand.
Abdul'baha and the Baha'i Covanant have placed the House of Justice at the top. The Covanant goes 2 ways. From the top down, loving guidance and protection of the Faith. From the bottom up, though, obedience without criticism from the faithful. The members of the UHJ are not representatives in the same way that members of the US Congress are; where the constituents tell them what to do. Is it the place of the flock to tell the shepard where to go and what to do? (that's a no.)
@aaronlee75 Abdul-Baha also extolled the freedom of thought and warned against the abuse of power by leaders of religion. Do you believe that the Bahai adminstration is completely free of abuse? You live in a fairy tale if you do. Don't mistake the strong words of accepting a leadership like the UHJ (which I do) with adminstration worship. That's making partners with God and sad to say a bit cultish (which seems to be the trend more and more recently in the Bahai community).
@aaronlee75 What Abdul'baha had to say about the House of Justice: "That which this body,...doth carry, that is verily the Truth and the Purpose of God himself. Whoso doth deviate therefrom is verily of them that love discord, hath shown forth malice and turned away from the Lord of the Covenant." "The House of Justice is both the Initiator and the Abrogator of its own laws.", & "whoso condeth with them hath contended with God..." (Baha'i World Faith, p 447.)...so it's on record, peace
@aaronlee75 And the Guardian has stated "The Guardian… is bound to insist upon a reconsideration by them (the UHJ) of any enactment he conscientiously believes to conflict with the meaning and to depart from the spirit of Bahá’u’lláh’s revealed utterances.”
(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha’u’llah, p. 150)
So without a Guardian, the UHJ can very well lead the wrong (they have made mistakes btw, but why shouldn't they? THe are NOT omniscient.
Ultimately the Guardian would accept the UHJ's ruling even if he had reservations. But why have reservations in the first place? Does God not get it right the first time? Or maybe infallibility is something different from what most Bahai want to believe at face value. You aaron choose to believe things as black and white. Maybe it gives you peace of mind to do so. That's not for me to judge. What is sad though is that your type are ALL that the Bahai community seems to tolerate these days.
@aaronlee75 Yep, I agree. Anyone whoever goes to the point of trying to set up a parallel UHJ and lead people a different way as the official Bahai view- is going against the Covenant. No brainer on that. But that does not mean you can't criticize and discuss views. I'm sorry you aaron are just trying to create yet another Sharia type religion where an individual just bows his head to authority and shuts up. We have enough of those in this world. I hope that is NOT your vision of the future.
The Universal House of Justice is the supreme institution of the Baha'i Faith and is responsible for its affairs world-wide. It is the only institution on the face of the planet which has the authority to interpret the Writings of the Bab, and Baha'u'llah. The seat of the Universal House of Justice, in fulfillment of Biblical and other prophecies, has its seat on Gods Holy Mountain, Mt. Carmel, in Haifa, Israel.
@jm3sb0nd007 I will tell you again, the UHJ does NOT have the authority to interpret. They enforce the laws. At this moment, the present UHJ, has stated the law is homosexuality is wrong. A future UHJ, God-willing, may think otherwise. HOwever, there are signs from a recent letter from the UHJ that I have just read, that show that maybe they are changing their minds on how to approach legal, gay relationships in some societies. So maybe things will get better. Cheers!
@PeyBar In those areas in which the Guardian didn't weigh in on something the UHJ does have the authority to make judgements on it...and if a future UHJ chooses, to change that judgement. Abdul'baha said that he would defer to the judgements of that institution on issues. That didn't arrise durring his lifetime...but that is the authority placed in the institution. On homosexual activity...I don't think that there is any question as to the current ruling. The activity is forbidden.
@aaronlee75 I agree with you. And that's why non-Bahais should be given the FULL picture as this video has done. Instead of just being given the pretty picture as jms3 and the institutions try to do when it comes to the issue. Then people can decide: not be a Bahai, be an inactive Bahai (like me) or join. It is about truth. However a recent letter from the UHJ does say that a gay couple legally married in a country should not be asked to divorce if they want to become Bahais,...
@PeyBar But should be taught that the "law" currently does not allow homosexual acts. This tells me they are being more lenient as times have changed- allowing gay couples to function in the Bahai community without having voting rights stripped and made to feel like second class citizens- as they have done in the past in the Bahai communities. But I'm not 100% sure of this new letter meaning this or not. You'll have to look it up if you are active in the Bahai community.
@PeyBar Anyway, it is really sad how far behind the Bahais are at the local grass-roots level. Local Bahai communities are stunted because they don't think they can think for themselves, not for an instance. SO unlike my friend's local Catholic congregation that has found how to accept LGBT people COMPLETELY and still stay within the Catholic church; the Bahais just sit waiting to move a millimeter according to what the UHJ says in a letter once a year.
@PeyBar I was saying that the UHJ *does* have limited authority to interpret...in areas where Effendi didn't. But to quote the Guardian; "(love)...between people of the same sex, to let it find expression in sexual acts is wrong." (notes 134, Aqdas, 1992 edition.) I've likened it to drug addiction. It's not a person's fault if they are an addict...it is though if they take drugs. Same is true orientation vs. active lifestyle. To be fair the same is true for all sexual promiscuity.
@aaronlee75 There seems to be a permanent ban on all active homosexual relations. Likewise a person is forbidden from "sleeping around," and should be likewise sanctioned if they don't stop. We can't say that "drugs are bad...just say no" and then turn around and smoke a joint. We're supposed to try and help anyone with a sexual deviancy of anykind...not condemn them. The acts themselves can be condemned though. I've looked into this subject on and off for almost 20 years.
@aaronlee75 It seems that people aren't strictly one or the other...not black/white so to speak. Rather, many "straight" guys, in prison or other circ., will have same sex affairs. Orientation has many degrees, few people are entirely 100%. We are all, though, responsible for our actions. It's on how we continue to act that we should be judged.
@aaronlee75 Well I'm 100% gay and 100% Bahai. And I plan to find someone to love and create a family to advance civilization because THAT is what God wants. The most beloved thing before God's eyes is Justice it alllows you to see with your own eyes and not the eyes of others. HOwever, unfortunately, some in every religion can't think for themselves. Rather they rely on administration worship to tell them what to think. Kind of cultish don't you think?
@aaronlee75 Yes you can. Drugs don't create loving relationships and beautiful children that ever-advance civilization like some of the gay couples that I know. HOw would you like if I equated Bahai marriage with sexual deviancy of straight people?
@aaronlee75 You mean to quote a secretary of Shoghi Effendi writing on behalf of the Guardian using the pseudo science of Shoghi Effendi's day. Please don't say a quote of the Guardian. Your liking love between two people to a drug addiction is disgusting. Shame on you.
@aaronlee75 And again, no they can't interperet. Where did they get this limited authority? From you? Please share a quote. Abdul-Baha made it clear they enforce laws. And Shoghi Effendi made it absolutely clear they enforce laws and create laws that are not in the book. So they don't have power to interpret. If they have made such a claim, then they are going against the Covenant. I hope you are not.
@PeyBar Please do not take offense. All of us, myself VERY much included, have spiritual problems. It was to those spiritual problems, in general, that I was talking about.
"Today this process of deduction is the right of the body of the House of Justice, and the deductions and conclusions of individual learned men have no authority, unless they are endorsed by the House of Justice." From the will of Abdul'baha regarding future laws not covered by Baha'u'llah. LofG pg 317.
@aaronlee75 My sexuality is NOT a problem, it is a blessing from God that allowed me to see with my own eyes and not the eyes of others. The onlty time I felt hopeless that it was a sickness, an abhorrent thing to the Creator and that I wanted to kill myself was when I was active in the Bahai community being fed that kind of Bull (as are kids in evangelical Christian churches). So I'm sorry about yoru spiritual problems, I'll pray for you. But don't lump my sexuality in with that.
@PeyBar Regarding "letters on behalf of the Guardian"...those were dictated and approved by S. Effendi before being sent out. The UHJ is considered by Baha'u'llah and Abdul'baha to be divinely guided in it's actions and dictates. Though not infallilbe, they do have the complete authority to rule on anything not expressly touched on by the founders. To create a law requires some level of interpretation. Even so, the Adminstration should never be allowed to become a bone of conention...
@aaronlee75 Yes sent out with limiited authority to when Shoghi Effendi actually interpreted something as being binding. Otherwise, you need to start enforcing EVERY single letter that came out of some secretary. The UHJ is the ultimate authority in the Faith period. It was set up that way so the Faith does not break into a million pieces. That is ALL I agree with. They don't speak as if they were God and to worship them as such is idolatory.
@jm3sb0nd007 Exactly. Guardianship interpreted. UHJ enforced laws. So please stop saying the UHJ interprets. You are wrong. If you are going to be a literalist minded Bahai, as are fundamentalist Christians with the Bible, then at least get your Writings correct! Thanks!
@peybar Because the fact of the matter is, logic guiding, that if you believe in God, you believe in Baha'ullah, then from there you can stem from that and accept what the UHJ says as well as the writings too. The word of God is not molded to fit what is the most popular view, this life is very fleeting, we are children inside the womb still waiting to be born. Perhaps if you think of life like that you may glean some more meaning from the words and not just automatically think its gay bashing
@jm3sb0nd007 When a loving couple, raising children that are sometimes BETTER than any coming out of straigh, married Bahai familes is being told that they are abhorrent to the Creator and subverting human life, then yes it IS close-minded homophobia. So yes, people should investigate the Bahai community, but they should be given the FULL picture (not just selected quotes that make it all rosy, like you do). Then they can choose be active Bahais, or believe on their own as I do.
@peybar A little note for you. You are completely wrong as you will see in the following quotes.Do not belittle the knowledge of MY religion, you are NO Baha'i. You are one that was either one before and then angered by something to turn away from it and then seek to cast a shadow on it, or have failed to secure power within it. You have not the spirit of a Baha'i nor attitude for me to believe such a claim. A true Baha'i would not speak like so to another Baha'i nor about his religion---.
@jm3sb0nd007 Interesting, a true Bahai I thought would never be so self-righteous and haughty to proclaim who is and is not a Bahai. I think you should evaluate yoursefl first before casting any stones. Allah'u'abha!
And yet another quote from the letters of the UHJ never quoted by people like jm3sb...:"Both you and your Baha'i friend must first recognize that a homosexual relationship subverts the purpose of human life and that determined effort to overcome the wayward tendencies which promote this practice which, like other sexual vices, is so abhorrent to the Creator of all mankind will help you both to return to a path that leads to true happiness. (23 August 1982 to an individual believer)"
Letter from the Universal House of Justice, dated September 11, 1995, to a National Spiritual Assembly
"To regard homosexuals with prejudice and disdain would be entirely against the spirit of Bahá'í Teachings. The doors are open for all of humanity to enter the Cause of God, irrespective of their present circumstances; this invitation applies to homosexuals as well as to any others who are engaged in practices contrary to the Bahá'í Teachings."
@jm3sb0nd007 The UHJ has also said that gay people do not "try to be problem humans", that they have a spiritual disorder, that achild needs a mother and father (not two people of the same sex) raising it, that gay teens should try to overcome their sexuality, that reparative therapy is an option that should be looked into, etc. These are also in letters from past UHJ's that you seem to ignore quoting. I consider such words from the leaders of a world religion to be homophobic. Do you?
@jm3sb0nd007 From a letter from the Secretariat office dated July 5, 1993:
The Universal House of Justice has indicated that "To the question of alteration of homosexual bents, much study must be given, and doubtless in the future clear principles of prevention and treatment will emerge" (Extract 13)."
@Peybar 2 You should not just automatically dismiss the Universal House of Justice, since it is what truly represents the Baha'i Faith, not misguided individuals. Without going too much into it Baha'ullah specifically left the power to interpret and lead to `Abdu'l-Bahá, who then left it to the guardianship, then Shogi Effendi who then(being the last guardian), left it to the Universal House of Justice. Seeing the undeniable legitimate transfers, what the UHJ says cannot be disregarded.Example
@jm3sb0nd007 Just a little note you should look up. The UHJ was not left the authority to interpret. They have the authority to lead and enforce laws according to the circumstances of humanity. But that isnot interpretation. If you going to say something in support of our religion, then you should get it correct please.
@ Peybar #1 it would not prove anything to post all the different comments you have heard online, just as my story in my first comment holds little water, why? Because we both could have made it up to support our point. That's why I tell people to investigate for themselves at least we can agree there. And you may say I deny it exists, I on the other hand have seen no evidence of it. Baha'is are taught to banish prejudice of any kind. #2(Refer to next comment)
I love how the last 5 comments were by the same person. As for your response to me, perhaps you shouldn't generalize the rest of the faith off your grandmother? Just the same you're entitled to your opinion. For anyone not familiar with the faith they shouldn't take what anyone has to say face value like peybar(Even me!), they should investigate for themselves (One tenet is personal investigation of the truth, no clergy) or contact the Universal house of justice or national spiritual assembly.
@jm3sb0nd007 Well I actually agree with you on that. People should investigate the Bahai community. Because maybe, like I said in my below posts which you disregard, the community has changed. I haven't been active in years. So when was the last time your community had a seminar on ending homophobia? I know Bahais still do Race Unity day, deepening on equality of men and women, religious persecution etc etc. Are you addressing homophobia among Bahais? Or do you just deny it exists? Thanks!
@jm3sb0nd007 Also beyond my own mother's comments, if you like, I can share a number of other comments from Bahais that I have heard inside of the 6 different Bahai communities that I have lived in in the US. Maybe the community has changed now at the grassroots level, but I would attribute this to a generational change among young Bahais in the West. The Bahai Administration is NOT the reason for this. Unfortunately it is society leading the way towards LGBT aceeptance, not the UHJ..
Question to the Bahais here who believe that the Bahai community is tolerant of LGBT people. When was the last time you went to a Bahai deepening, fireside whatever- where the issue of homophobia, especially inside the Bahai community, was addressed? I never have- not once in my entire Bahai life. Of course I stopped being active inthe late 90's- so maybe things have changed. Seriously has anything changed? It's easy to pull out words of tolerance- harder to show proof.
I have family friends who are gay and also friends of the faith. They are not baha'is themselves but they respect it and likewise they are treated with equal respect. Sometimes the Word of God goes against our preconceived notions., this is a test for many. However, let it be said that Baha'is do respect everyone equally, no one is trying to force people to join, nor say they are evil. This is obviously made by someone with a grudge with the faith otherwise they wouldn't have made a video. Peace
@jm3sb0nd007 My Persian mother, generations Bahai like me, once said there was no difference between gays wanting to get married and gay teens being executed in Iran. So obviously she did not get the memo that Bahai treat gays with respect. She would never make such a comment about Blacks or Jews, yet somehow it's ok to do so when it comes to gay people. So maybe the "grudge" you see is from those of us who are tired of the facade of tolerance that Bahais try to portray.
The reality is that inside the Bahai community, such tolerance does not exist. That is why I am not active in it, nor will I be until gay families are treated equally and with respect. But fortunately we can love Bahaullah on our own. It's just sad to see the Bahai community continuing to shrink and be out of step with justice.
The Baha'i Faiths view on Homosexuality is that it is not condemned, you could be a Baha'i and be homosexual, it is however, condemned to be a sexually active homosexual.
Why would you make a video about this? No one has forced you to become a Baha'i and many religions have far stricter views on homosexuality, if you love the Baha'i Faith so much as to make a video like this one, then you would overlook what you see as a mistake and follow the will of God.
@shaztekk If you feel the need to have a homosexual relationship, then the Baha'i Faith is not for you, Baha'is cannot and will not change the laws written down for them and a petition will have no affect on the laws of the religion.
@shaztekk Why? Because there are gay couples with kids raising beautiful children who are being told they are diseased and problem people for creating such a family. This is about keeping the Bahai Faith from becoming yet another fundamentalist minded, cultish group of people who are not willing to be on the forefront of justice. I follow the Will of God- that is the most of beloved thing in His eyes being JUSTICE. Go to look that up please!
@shaztekk Wow, seriously? THAT is how you measure how great your version of the Bahai Faith is? That it has less stricter views on homosexuality, so therefore it is better? Give me a break. It is a shame that Bahais like you pride yourself in how "tolerant" the Bahais are towards LGBT people because why? Gays aren't shunned, tortured or killed by the Bahai Faith? Meanwhile, so many other Faith communities are opened their hearts, mind and communities. Abdul-Baha would have done the same!
@PeyBar I only gave the view on homosexuality by the Baha'i faith, I don't understand why this would make you upset, I was merely stating, that if the person who uploaded the video doesn't like the views Baha'is have on homosexuality, why bother making the video? I am not "proud" of the fact that Baha'is have far less discrimination against gays, and even if I was, what harm is there in being happy that your faith does not shun, kill and torture people?
@shaztekk No you didn't. You gave YOUR understanding Bahaullah said nothing expect condemn sex with slave boys. Your understanding of the Bahai Faith would call for the punishment of gays in a future Bahai society, not just people who have sex with children as Bahaullah mentions. But again, how do you argue with a fundamentalist. I suggest you leave the Faith. You are turning the Bahai community into a cultish little group of people no different from some Christian churches. Sad!
Youtube would not let me continue, here is the rest: "Meanwhile, so many other Faith communities are opened their hearts, mind and communities" I'm sorry to inform you, but my "version" of the Baha'i faith is based on writings in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas and if you disagree with what is said in there, I suggest you renounce your faith. I am not against gays (something I tried my hardest to show in my first comment) I am only telling all the people watching this video, that this is the Baha'i view.
@shaztekk Again you are a blind fundamentalist, somethign that the Bahais are not supposed to be. But how do you argue with someone who uses Lights of Guidance as their guidebook to life instead of their heart and mind.
@PeyBar HUH your one funny guy! I am in no way perfect nor fundamentalist, I do not use The Lights Of Gjidance as a guide for my everyday life! HUH I ws using it as an example, you don't show a single sign of how a Baha'i should act you are in truth a covenant breaker and I shall pray for you.
@shaztekk And you do? Calling fellow Bahais covenant breakers? What kind of community are you creating? A loving tolerant one that accepts all of humanity as Abdul-Baha had wanted,, or a stifling, cultish,, inwarding looking community that shuns others? So sad. But don't worry Shaz, I'm not active in the Bahai community, nor will I ever be as long as there are people like you in it. LGBT are more welcome in my friend's local church- and they are Catholic! But..
@PeyBar do keep posting please. It shows the world what types of people they will find inside the Bahai community. I don't need to describe it, you are doing a fine job shaz! :o)
@PeyBar 1. Stop calling me Shaz im not your friend. 2. Stop trying to make me look bad when your going against your own religion. 3. Although it is very true that people of the Baha'i faith are sometimes complete idiots, on the subject that your talking about it simply doesn't matter because not only do some of the people not agree with you, but all the leaders of The Bahai Faith past and present disagree with you. Oh and by the way, complete disregard of your community doesn't seem very Baha'i.
@shaztekk I feel your pain, I see what you feel, you love the Faith, and it's teachings, you can't bare the fact that it doesn't agree with your behavior, if you look deep in your heart and soul, you will find God waiting there, to help you with your endeavors. That's all, it's all I have to say. Good luck"
i am a Bahai. I have always thought of my self beeing modern and inteligent. The question of what bahai thinks of gays never acured to me. Now that I know Bahai thins homossexuality is a disability I AM ASHAMED and I am not gay. I think this way of thinking is premetive
It looks like you were having quite a heated discussion and also the audio of the video has been disabled. I can't get involved. But I would ask anyone who's interested what they think the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith was talking about when he referred to Homosexuality being a 'handicap.' FYI I was not brought up in the Faith or any other religion. But my Mum breeds RACEHORSES. There's a big clue for you.
@PeyBar There is nothing wrong about what SWIFTisHERE said and he is certainly not ignorant. What he said is accurate. I suggest that for your own sake, you address your own problem by getting proper professional help. Are you still a Baha'i or not. If you are not, then what are you complaining about?
@cameronmoj It is accurate that there is ignorance against gays inside the Bahai community. If I can shine a light on any community that tells its vulnerable (especially youth) that they are unnatural, then I will. You sent us on a false quest to overcome our sexuality which harmed our souls and led some to suicide. So you better believe I will not let this continue in silence! The only thing I can do is let the world know. You want to continue in your ignorance, then so be it.
@356pla Actually, no the Bahai Faith is not supposed to be that way. There are Writings that may lead one to believe that, but there are also Writings that lead one completely to the opposite view. The us vs. them attitude is not supposed to exist among Bahais. But to some extent you are correct. There will always be fundamentalists minded individuals in every religion that thrive on this exclusivist view. And unfortunately, the leadership of said religions needs those people to stay in power.
@PeyBarBaha'i s got books. They say what they say. Different people who want the power to pronounce what is meant by those words now fight. It is a young religion and has not yet gained much power, let alone the control of a government. While this religion is young the only people they have the power to hurt are those who are close by.
@cameronmoj There is nothing wrong, unnatural or sinful about being gay and in a committed loving relationship. It is ignorant (ignoring science; something Bahais are supposed to believein) to tell a gay youth in your community that they need to get a doctor's help to overcome this. Your ignorance has led to the suicide of gay youth in the Bahai community and you should take responsibility for that. You don't speak for Bahaullah- only for your own prejudices.
@cameronmoj Oh and buddy, yep I"m still a Bahai. Albeit I won't be active as long as homophobes like you are the only ones given a voice inside the Bahai community. So enjoy being in a community tha tis shrinking and being less and less in touch with the world. Ishallah things will change in my life time.
To all the Bahais who have overcome the pain and suffering of the Bahai community and it's administration, please google the "It gets better" project. Share your story there as I did. All in the hopes that gay children inside the Bahai community will read it and be saved from the ignorance espoused by individual's like this Swift character below.
its not about equality, its stating that this is a handicap that must be overcome, the same way any other mental illness, that is identified as a mental illness, should be cured or atleast tried to be cured. It is a burden on the individual with it. It can destroy families and can lead to humiliation. although this doesnt mean they shouldnt be treated equally, they are human beings and their sexuality is their problem, it is merely a way of guiding those that find themselves with this problem.
@SWIFTisHERE Oh swift please. Tell us something we haven't heard before. If you think "they" should be treated equally, then start with the Bahai community. Allow gay couples with their kids to be equal with straight married Bahais and their kids. Open up the community to all and stop telling poor Bahai kids (like I was) that they have a mentla illness. We don't. I never did. All my pain and suffering came about because of the Bahai community and ignorant people like yourself. I'm free now.
What I've always found interesting with people inside the Bahai community who are so adamantly opposed to equal rights for LGBT people is that they themselves are battling with demons related to sexuality. Either they are in conflict with their own sexuality or they have been traumatized in some way by an LGBT person and now they have to take it on all of us. Very strange.
@SofarFurniture How long can someone keep saying over and over again that being gay is immoral, not normal, spread diseases, etc before it starts turning into trolling?
we believe that a marriage should be a man and a woman so we are not discriminating we are just saying that it is not accepted. and we do not shut homosexuals out we just help them become straight!
and ur stupid petition isnt gonna stop us from our teachings. we can do what we want and you can do the same!
@amieeheartsfred and as a fifth generation Bahai, I can make sure that the world knows that "unity in diversity" does not include gays and lesbians inside the Bahai community. I'll make sure to post her "stupid" petition on all progressive and gay friendly sites, so that they know how the Bahai community treats gays and lesbians (as you have just demonstrated). Btw, please check out the "It Gets Better Project" online.
@PeyBar Maybe the LGBT Bahais who survived the mental/emotional abuse inside the Bahai community of being told by the UHJ and Bahais like amie that they are "problem people" (see the letter written by the UHJ), have a spiritual disorder, need to turn straight to function inside the community, etc etc. maybe these Bahais should make videos for young gay Bahais inside the Bahai commuity who are currently hurting. Let them know that "It will get better"!
@PeyBar and listen to me we treat them with respect and its just what we believe so GET OVER IT! we cannot change our law against gays and lesbians as it isnt our choice and the universal house of justice will not do it. understand?
@amieeheartsfred yes i understand that you take a fundamentalist view, but I don't. And I as well as many others ARE Bahais. There is no law against gay marriage. There is no law against two men or women making a family. But there is prejudice in the Bahai community against LGBT people. THAT i understnad.
@amieeheartsfred Btw Ms. Amie. Have you googled the "it gets better project"? It is helping gay youth who are thinking of committing suicide to realize that life will get better. Did you know that Bahai youth who were gay committed suicide because of the nonsense that people like you espouse inside the Bahai community? Yes, YOU are responsible. I will make sure that any future kids inside the Bahai community know that it will get better and not to listen to the nonsense you espouse.
@SofarFurniture It is never unfair to block trolling. I deleted DivineInterllect's inappropriate comments, and unless you are DI commenting from a second account, I doubt you know what they were. Trolls do not deserve a forum or our time.
I am glad to know that you (and them, etc) are paying attention. Thanks.
@DivineInterllect "Science" doesn't discourage anal sex. And anal sex is not the same thing as homosexuality, by the way. If you are against anal sex, please go comment on someone's videos that are about anal sex- (you know straight couples have anal sex.) This video is about equal rights for all people. Stay on topic.
And again, medical science and psychology absolutely do *not* identify "risks" of one sexual orientation over another.
@DivineInterllect Who's being immoral? I consider my committed friends who are raising kids to be VERY moral. I'm sorry that you don't. But you have a bad case of what is called prejudice. And I find a man who abuses his wife in holy church-sanctioned matrimony to be very immoral. But I wouldn't judge ALL straight marriages according to the auctions of many. Why then do you judge gays?
@DivineInterllect Ahhh, so it al boils down to my "spirituality" is right and yours is wrong. Got it! It has nothing to do with actual facts. Ok, then there really is nothign to argue. You can't argue with prejudice.
How do you know who is a bahai here...? Im not, but I can say I am, I can say that Im a bahai, and bahais hate people. Its not proof...
sirjojo88 3 weeks ago
People have to use their discrimination, or else they don't have minds. Homosexuality is mental illness, and a social disease. It's right for Baha'is to discourage it.
DivineFellowship 3 months ago
@DivineFellowship Oh great a white European supremacist agreeing with the homophobic stance of the Bahai community. If that isn't proof enough that the Bahais are wrong on this issue, then I don't know what is.
PeyBar 3 months ago
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Is all you got is Orwellian newspeak and propaganda buzzwords? I've never met a "European supremacist." I have have no idea what you're babbling about. Are you a gay supremacist? I have also never met anybody who has a clinical mental illness or irrational fear regarding homosexuality (a "phobia"). That's Orwellian Newspeak invented by a radical gay activist. I've met people with dislike, disgust, aversion, disagreement with gays, but never anybody with a "phobia" regarding them. Grow up.
DivineFellowship 3 months ago
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Baha'is will eventually become corrupt regarding their moral position. That's inevitable when you are embarassed about your "Book of Laws" and don't even follow it for the first 150 years of your growth. A religion gets way off the rails that way. I mean, Baha'is still don't even do falcon hunting properly, and they hardly ever wear sable.
DivineFellowship 3 months ago
Just last month the Iranian regime executed 3 men for 'lawat' - sex between two men. Hmmm, what other religion considers lawat sex between two consenting same sex adults and punishes them for it? Yes, the Bahai Faith. The degree of punishment is different, but the ostracizing and outcasting is all the same. In either case, stay in the closet (deep in the closet) and you will be ok. Otherwise face death or in the Bahai case have your rights removed.
PeyBar 4 months ago
This is one of the reasons I left Bahai after 20 years. I could not stand the discrimination perpetrated by a community which is, itself, all too willing to shout from the rooftops how its members in Iran (and elsewhere) are persecuted while they themselves persecute Queer people. I am against ALL forms of discrimination (religious, sexual, racial, etc.) and there was absolutely no room for me in the Bahai community. I seek a LOVING community, not a rigid, narrow-minded one.
GreenRad2012 4 months ago
@GreenRad2012 Bahai's are clearly taught in scripture not to discriminate. It is a personal choice whether to become Baha'i or not, and even as a Baha'i again it is a choice whether you are to decide to engage in homosexual behaviour or not. It is left to the concience of the believer. Bahai's do not drink alcohol either yet we do not force this moral standard on others, when someone CHOOSES to become a Baha'i they choose to sacrifice their right to drink/practice as a homosexual.
nickyaz111 4 months ago
@GreenRad2012 I believe you are very ignorant in attempting to draw similarities between Bahai's being persecuted in Iran to the treatment of homosexuals. THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A COUNTRY ACTIVELY KILLING/IMPRISONING/VIOLATING THE RIGHTS OF A MINORITY SUCH AS THE BAHAI'S IN IRAN VERSE DOCTRINE WHICH FORBIDS HOMOSEXUAL BEHAVIOUR. The Baha'i stance is homosexual acts are immoral, we do not force this morality on anyone nor do we force anyone to become a Baha'i.
nickyaz111 4 months ago
@nickyaz111 Bahais don't need to live in Iran. They can leave. Just as gay Bahais can leave the Bahai community. It is EXACTLY the same thing; with the exception of the degree of punishment. If you could only see with your own eyes and not the eyes of others. Justice seems to have been replaced by blind dogma among Bahais such as yourself. Sad!
PeyBar 4 months ago
@PeyBar The current punishment for a gay person who decides to marry his partner and raise a family is to have his voting rights removed by the Bahai administration. This essentially means that the individual has no right to have his voice heard in the decision making process inside the Bahai community and participate actively in the community. Essentially making the person a second class citizen as are Bahais in Iran.
PeyBar 4 months ago
But worse than the punishment itself is the unwelcoiming spirit inside most Bahai communities towards LGBT people. There are good Bahais and maybe some good communities were individuals live and let live. But the majority play the Don't' Ask Don't Tell game. So if you are a closeted, self-hating homosexual who thinks that you are diseased, then the Bahai community is a perfect place to worship. Otherwise, it is a truly toxic environment for most gays.
PeyBar 4 months ago
@PeyBar if you want to be gay, don't be a Bahai.... that's alot different to saying 'if you want to be a Bahai you'll just have to go into exile'
nickyaz111 4 months ago
@nickyaz111 Unless the Bahai Faith is your home; stronger than your sense of country. Then essentially, yes you are in exile from your community, from your home because you have deiced to be true to yourself and love the person GOd intended for you. FOr this you are punished by the Bahais and told to go worship on your own. Yes, in my mind (a 5th generation Bahai) and many others, it is no different from Iran pressuring Bahais due to religion; only the type of punishment is the difference.
PeyBar 4 months ago
@nickyaz111 And btw, how many Bahais have been killed in Iran since the Revolution? 200 or so? How many people for the crime of homosexuality? A few thousand for sure! Have you ever heard the Bahai administration EVER condemn those killings? They have spoken up about religious discrimination in Iran, but never in regards to LGBT people. Why? I'm not belittling the plight of the Bahais in Iran, trust me. But I do find it a bit hypocritical to not give a damn about LGBT people dying in Iran.
PeyBar 4 months ago
@PeyBar rofl, so people should just leave their country of birth because they want to follow a religion? and if Bahai's could just leave they would... no.. the only option they have is to put their lives at even more risk and attempt to be smuggled out of the country
nickyaz111 4 months ago
@nickyaz111 No actually I have family that has left and lives in the US; she goes back every year or so. But see, you are again missing the point, because you have hard time understanding the word "JUSTICE". No one should have their human rights taken away for the religion that they follow. The current Bahai community has created a community and wants to create a world where gay families are considered second class citizens. Until that changes, criticism will continue.
PeyBar 4 months ago
homosexualit is forbidden in all faiths.....ummm..in he bahai faith and in islam....it is said that..its okay that your gay or lesbian...but what makes the difference..is if you act on it. I'ts not something that ou should act upon. Also it is said in both islam and the bahai faith...your not help accountable for your thoughts..but for your actions.........so i dont think its riight for you to say that bahais are againts Gays n stuff becuase in that ase..every religion is agaisnt gays........
rebrat90 9 months ago
@rebrat90 Where is it forbidden in Islam or Christianity or Judaism? Or in the words of Bahaullah? If you are referring to the story of Sodom or the myriad of words that refer to Sodomy- then that is not what we are talking about. Everyone is against forced sex on someone else- rape. This is what sodomy meant in those writings. The concept of two men or women being monogomous and having a family in today's world is very different from what was forbidden by those Books. Educate yourself please!
PeyBar 9 months ago
@rebrat90 You know that that's ridiculous
That means gay people can be gay if they just stay celibate their entire lives
Do you know how asinine you sound?
As for the anti gay stuff, that's all leviticus
I'm not gay, so the leviticus followers won't murder me...but I ate at the red lobster...I guess that means I'm an abomination
Yes, being gay is as evil as eating at the red lobster or ordering sushi
So would you kindly fuck off?
dffykvn 9 months ago
@dffykvn whats the point of you putting videos up an dleaving it open for people to comment if your gonna curse me out? ...becuase i dont agree with you?? i didnt agree with you and i wasnt nasty towards you...have some class buddy
rebrat90 9 months ago
I'm sorry but I get that way when I hear something thats that misinformed
In leviticus homosexuality is an abomination, right up there with other horrible abominations like eating shellfish and red lobster
According to hinduism burning widows alive at their husbands funerals is acceptable
Chinese "ghost brides" are similar
Lots of religions believe stupid things
There are religions that accept gay people, not all of them have such bigoted views
I'm sorry that I got so worked up
dffykvn 9 months ago
@dffykvn its cool.....but i stills tand by what say....in those religions thers no talk of those people going to hell or anything...........people make that up..the whole gay people r going to hell and thats what the bible says and stuff..its not true.....
rebrat90 9 months ago
But thats what gets to me
I'm not gay but I had a friend that was gay that was kicked out of his home because his parents said it was against their religion
Others were shouted at by fundies in my school
The people who say gays are abominations in the eyes of god are hand in hand with the people that kick gays out of homes, make discriminatory laws against them, let police arrest gays for consensual sex (happens in texas), because they don't denounce discrimination they're a part of it
dffykvn 9 months ago
@rebrat90 The anti gay stuff is hate speech whether the person is just a regular person who finds gay sex distasteful or as far gone as the people that murder gays
The anti gay preachers in america funded a law in uganda to MURDER gay people
They can't do it in america so they're murdering gays for jesus in uganda
You might not be as far gone as those people, but you're on their side while they say hateful things about gays which leads to them to being ostracized and sometimes suicide
dffykvn 9 months ago
@rebrat90 Religions might say the same thing on many different issues, but what makes a religious person a good person to me is how much they embrace the good of their various holy books and how much ancient outdated bigoted nonsense they ignore
Be charitable? Check
Kind? Check
Gracious? Check
Generous? Great quality
Those are all the good side of religion then its
Slavery (christians) fuck no
Hate gays (according to you all of them) no
Kill mouthy kids (jews christians) lord no
dffykvn 9 months ago
@rebrat90 btw you're the first person who believes that its wrong to be gay who says gays won't go to hell
Everyone else who says that stuff says gays will go to hell if they have gay sex
All of the priests, preachers evangelists, deacons who go off on gays say they'll go to hell if they have sex
You're literally the first person that I've heard say that religion should say that gay sex is wrong but they won't go to hell
dffykvn 9 months ago
@dffykvn im just saying that in all religions its something that its known ,and something u shoudnt act upon. Now even though people say you will go to hell in stuff theyre wrong becuz how do you know what God will do to you? no one knows.........not priest ,not pastors..no one..so they cant say that people who r gay are going to hell. just like doing drugs.....i know its not allowed in religions but does that mean your going to hell?.....no...
rebrat90 9 months ago
@rebrat90 Ok then I completely agree
I think the more modern a society gets the more superstitions it should abandon
Most people ignore the shellfish, mixed fabrics stuff
Hardcore zealots and fanatics want to stigmatize gays
The better societies marginalize those viewpoints as coming from the lunatic fringe
Unfortunately theres too many americans embracing the "hate gays to save their souls nonsense"
I'm glad you're not one of them
dffykvn 9 months ago
@dffykvn its funny how we came from you cursing me out to u saying you agree with me...lol
rebrat90 9 months ago
@rebrat90 What do you mean by "all religions"? There are many that disagree with that statement- and they happen to be faithful Christians, Moslems and yes even Bahais. It's all on how the religion is interpreted. I refuse to believe your statement. It may seem innocent what you say, but it is not. The self-hate and hopelessness that is created among young, impressionable minds is wrong. Do you understand what I am saying? When you state con't:
PeyBar 9 months ago
@PeyBar When you state that all religions consider acting on homosexuality as wrong, this feeds the depression, thoughts of suicide, etc. that a young vulnerable person is feeling. We are here to tell that young person that NO, don't believe the fundamentalists in every religion that believe it's their way or the highway. Many in various religions are here to tell young people that God wants to them to love and be loved in a relationship just as much as straight people.
PeyBar 9 months ago
Sorry that statement was not meqant for rebrat90, but rather dffykvn stating that "all religions it's something that shouldn't be acted upon"
PeyBar 9 months ago
@PeyBar whose making thes epeople hate themselves and seem helpless???.....u want to change the word of God to your own and thats the problem. In no religion it says people who are gay will go to hell..i n no book it says that..it one thing for people to believe that but its another if it says that in any holy book....and it doesnt. And who determines how faithful a person is? becuz u pray all the time or always going to church????... it really doesnt matter what the people say..the books matter
rebrat90 9 months ago
@rebrat90 Uh, you are.
PeyBar 7 months ago
@PeyBar ?
rebrat90 7 months ago
I shall pray foryou peybar.
shaztekk 10 months ago
@shaztekk Thanks, prayer is a good thing.Maybe my prayer's will open your heart and mind. Ishallah!
PeyBar 10 months ago
The true marriage of Bahá'ís is this, that husband and wife should be united both physically and spiritually, that they may ever improve the spiritual life of each other, and may enjoy everlasting unity throughout all the worlds of God (Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 118)
The House of Justice can change it's own laws, but not change those put down in the "sacred texts," those of Baha'u'llah and Abdul'baha. That's the truth as best I know it.
aaronlee75 11 months ago
@aaronlee75 .Truth can be understood out of the black/white box that you insist on. That's your choice. The concept of a same sex couple raising kids was completely outside of that box; it wasn't even a question that would have been asked. Times have changed .This may be why the UHJ in a recent letter said Bahais shouldn't ask a gay couple to divorce in ordert to become Bahais. But I haven't seen the letter myself. Anyway, shame that Bahais are not in the forefront of justice.
PeyBar 11 months ago
@PeyBar If you wish to take part in this experiment in social engineering, then fine...I can't rationaly say no. Be careful, though, for we don't know what the secondary consequences may be.
Just as in a polygamist marriage, the Faith wouldn't ask them to disolve the marriage...I, as an individual and looking at this precident, would say that it's unlikely that the faith would ask a same sex couple to disolve their marriage if they became Baha'is...for existing baha'is the rules seem clear.
aaronlee75 11 months ago
@PeyBar Please note that these are for me..."Dissension and strife have always been, and shall remain, rejected by God." & "Let none contend with another..." (quotes from Baha'u'llah). I fear that perhaps I have been heading down the road of contention. If so, I'm sorry. I've said all that I need to say anyway. To say more would do little to advance this conversation and wouldn't change either of our POVs. Good luck with your path. I hope you find resolution one way or another. Peace
aaronlee75 11 months ago
@aaronlee75 Thanks, I have already found a resolution. It's called keeping things honest, real and open. Wether or not I am every welcome in the Bahai community, makes no difference. But my sense of justice (which again is what Bahaullah came for this world for) will not allow me to keep silent. So if a Bahai in her position in Malaysia makes anti-gay and utterly homophobic remarks, maybe you think it's ok to not say anything. I don't. THAT is not rejected by God. Peace!
PeyBar 11 months ago
From a religious coalition in Malaysia opposed to Lady Gaga's empowering song about self-acceptance:
"Malaysia does not promote gays and lesbians, and has rightly banned the
offensive content in Lady Gaga's song, said Yong Su Sien, a member of
the Baha'i Office for the Advancement of Women.
They should call it the Bahai Office for the Advancement of Women and the Suppression of Gays!
PeyBar 11 months ago
In a divorce case involving infidelity, the unfaithful spouse generally would lose everything.
"...like some Cahtolic priest do..." unfortunately implies pedephilia. Pediphilia of course would be routed out...no way accepted.
Baha'i law tends to be very consistant in regards to carrying one principle over to a similar problem. One that comes to mind is where a polygamist would decide to become a Baha'i.
aaronlee75 11 months ago
The Baha'i Faith prescribes monogamy. In the case of someone in a polygamist marriage wanting to become a Baha'i...the Faith would not ask him/her to absolve that marriage. They wouldn't be asked to destroy the marriage and family that was in place allready. That dosen't mean that someone who was a Baha'i would be given the OK to enter into a polygamist marriage after the fact.
It'd be interesting to see how this principle might apply to pre-existing same sex marriages.
aaronlee75 11 months ago
@aaronlee75 A Bahai could leave the Faith, enter into a legal marriage with someone of the same-sex and the Bahai community would have to accept it. From a recent letter from the UHJ, it seems like that is what they are saying. Basically don't ask the couple to divorce, but explain to them the law. It's not much, but it's a start. Better than hiding in the closet, right aaron?
PeyBar 11 months ago
@aaronlee75 Not true. Some gay men become Catholic Priests because it is their option to not get married and deal with their sexuality. Has nothing to do with pedephilia. What I am getting at is that the Bahai community can accept you adulterer, gay, whatever as long as you keep in the closet as doews the Cahtolic church. You understand well enough Aaron from your personal messages to me. BUT, the Bahai community freaks out when it has to deal with open gay families. THAT is the injustice.
PeyBar 11 months ago
@PeyBar Well, the Baha'i definition of marriage is a 100+ year old doctrine that the House of Justice has no power to repeal or change. Sadly, vey sadly, that is something that gay or bi Baha'is have to deal with. I learned to personally. I've known some people who have had too much of a moral objection to it, and left the Faith, while still staying friends with it.
Why might it be immoral? We can only guess. Baha'u'llah claimed to be God's messenger and to see the future. We can't know.
aaronlee75 11 months ago
@aaronlee75 It comes down to a matter of faith. Did Baha'u'llah see the future, and see a reason for it to be banned...see it as a source of harm for some reason?
Also, if you're going to place a limit on sexual expression where do you do it? Unless it's totally open, someone will feel that it's not fair. It's a very very hard choice. Do we decide if it's us, or if it's God, that decides morality?
aaronlee75 11 months ago
@aaronlee75 Yes, Faith that Bahaullah came to this world for justice and peace. Not to establish Sharia law as the mullahs in Iran have done. If that is your vision of the Bahai Faith, then friend you are no Bahai. You place limit on family. Polygamy is accepted in the Bahai Faith because there are cultures where polygamy is accepted, where functioning families are built. This the problem with the Bahais such as yourself. You don't see the distinction between family and pure sex.
PeyBar 11 months ago
It is easy to when you are closeted and enjoying your sexuality behind closed doors, to see it all in a fundamentalist black/white fashion. Just make it all about sex. Not about the beautiful families that are created. Or the kids that are adopted and raised. Just keep focusing it back on sex so that you can continue the status qujo. The staus quo obviously works for you. God is on the side of justice. Does it advance civilization or not?
PeyBar 11 months ago
@aaronlee75 Actually no, it's not 100+ years old. Bahai "law" was meant to be applied according to the needs of humanity. Bahai "law" channels sexual energy into the instution of marriage for the benefit of society. IN order to establish family and stability. This can also include gay couples. At this point in history, the Bahai community and its administration has decided it won't accept gay families.
PeyBar 11 months ago
@aaronlee75 Again Bahaullah channelled sexual energy into the instution of marriage. In His day, the definition was man and woman (or women). That is all. That is why He allowed a man to have up to two women. The idea of two men being together, raising kids? It didn't even come up. Only in the last few decades have we seen the fruits of such gay families- beautiful kids who do advance civilization (sometimes much more than Bahai kids). So you can accept the status quo.
PeyBar 11 months ago
@PeyBar But I am not willing to accept the status quo. And if there is to be no change as you claim. Well then, at least let's do the honorable thing as this video is doing and call a spade a spade. Make sure the world knows what the Bahai community truly thinks of gay people (such as the quote from that Bahai authority in Malaysia). Stop with the lies and the pretty facade of tolerance. Tell the truth please
PeyBar 11 months ago
@PeyBar The laws of Baha'ullah cannot be changed, why would you call yourself Baha'i when you know that? If you believe that are wrong, renounce your faith buddy.
shaztekk 10 months ago
@shaztekk Shaztek I am a Bahai because I believe in Bahaullah, in His vision of justice and not a religion of fudnamentalism. But how exactly do you argue this with someone who uses Ligths of Guidance as their guide to lving their life. Oh lord! Consultation with you would be like consulting with an evangelical Christian who uses the Bible in a literal fashion. You both are absolutely no different. Only the Bahais like you pretend to be so "tolerant" towards gay people. You are not.
PeyBar 10 months ago
@PeyBar You disregard Bahau'allahs law, Abul-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, and the many UHJ's that have been, I am not a fundamentalist, it is a STRICT LAW in that Baha'i faith THAT YOU CANNOT HAVE A SEXUAL RELATIONSHIP WITH ANOTHER MAN OR WOMAN. Like aaronlee said, the UHJ cannot change Bahau'allahs laws! You are a very impolite person, why don't you go drink/gamble/do drugs and say that's allowed too!
shaztekk 10 months ago
@shaztekk Nope, haven't disregarded anything since I am not having sex with slave boys. I respect that the UHJ makes laws that are not in the Book. BUT they are not God as you like to believe. They are 9 men with ultimate authority to lead the Faith- that's all. So stop worshipping administration. And please why don't you stop with your self-righteousness, that is against the Faith you know? And why don't you believe in religion and science agreeing? That is also part of the Faith. Forgot those?
PeyBar 10 months ago
@PeyBar HUH! you mention science when the behavioral pattern induced in Homosexuals goes against the genetic order involved in natures way, an enlargement of the Hypothalmus (sexual part of the brain) has been proven as the reason for (true) homosexuality. Scientific enough?
shaztekk 10 months ago
@shaztekk Keep posting my friend. You are doing a WAY better job at proving my point of the fundamentalist type of people that currently exist inside the Bahai community. Better than anything I can write or say. Sad, but thanks, maybe by shining a light on the problem it will help bring change. More than likely it will just make you people turn the community into momre of an inward looking cultish group,, rather than embracing ALL of humanity. Oh well...
PeyBar 10 months ago
If anyone cares; an official view point held since 1955 regarding homosexuality, was that it was an issue only if it was flagrantly demostrated in the community.
On a personal level, this means that if one keeps such a relationship private, then their actions are between them and God..
This is one way in which some gay Baha'is deal with it.
Ultimately we all answer only to God for our own actions.
Censure "should only be resorted to in very flagrant cases."
UHJ law won't likely change
aaronlee75 11 months ago
@aaronlee75 And by flagaranlty what aaronlee means are two loving people in a committed relationship raising a family. But if you are closeted, cheating on your straight spouse and basically keeping everything hidden (sort of like some Catholic priests do), then aaronlee is right, you are more than welcome in the Bahai community. The "law" may be changing some. A new letter from the UHJ says that gay couples who are officially married in some societies are not to be asked to divorce....
PeyBar 11 months ago
@PeyBar if they want to become Bahais. But just explained that they are not supposed to have sex while together. So maybe things are getting better- God willing. BUt unfortunately this tone of change is more due to society become more tolerant, not so much the Bahai community leading justice. Shouldn't it be the other way around? "The best of all to Me is Justice."
PeyBar 11 months ago
@aaronlee75 Again this is the problem. Someone like Aaron should understand the mental/emotional toll that a policy of Don't Ask Don't Tell takes on people. But the mental/spritual health of people, theeir happiness does not matter to a literalist. The letter of the "law" is all that matters. It's the same scenario with other fundamentalists in other religions. No different among Bahais. How exactly pray tell do two fathers raising a child keep their lives private?
PeyBar 11 months ago
And IF they UHJ is truly free from error (as in God makes no mistakes), then why elect UHJ members? Wouldn't those 9 men be better suited at electing the next members? And the Bahai fund, why don't they pick the Lotto and win; and stop asking poor Bahais for more money all the time? The reason is they are not infallible. They are just the ultimate leaders and to create another UHJ is wrong and against the Covenant. That's all, so don't read more into it. Don't go down the road of a cult- please!
PeyBar 11 months ago
But what is scary of aaronlee's comments is how stifling it is. He just subtly tried to threaten me by alluding to what I'm doing is close to breaking trhe covenant. I can p;ost his private message if anyone is interested. THIS is how free thought and expression is treated INSIDE the Bahai community. And this is why I choose to be inactive and worship on my own. Mindless sheep is NOT what Bahaullah intended. Sorry aaron- you are wrong in how you understand.
PeyBar 11 months ago
@PeyBar feel free to if you choose.
aaronlee75 11 months ago
Abdul'baha and the Baha'i Covanant have placed the House of Justice at the top. The Covanant goes 2 ways. From the top down, loving guidance and protection of the Faith. From the bottom up, though, obedience without criticism from the faithful. The members of the UHJ are not representatives in the same way that members of the US Congress are; where the constituents tell them what to do. Is it the place of the flock to tell the shepard where to go and what to do? (that's a no.)
aaronlee75 11 months ago
@aaronlee75 Abdul-Baha also extolled the freedom of thought and warned against the abuse of power by leaders of religion. Do you believe that the Bahai adminstration is completely free of abuse? You live in a fairy tale if you do. Don't mistake the strong words of accepting a leadership like the UHJ (which I do) with adminstration worship. That's making partners with God and sad to say a bit cultish (which seems to be the trend more and more recently in the Bahai community).
PeyBar 11 months ago
@aaronlee75 What Abdul'baha had to say about the House of Justice: "That which this body,...doth carry, that is verily the Truth and the Purpose of God himself. Whoso doth deviate therefrom is verily of them that love discord, hath shown forth malice and turned away from the Lord of the Covenant." "The House of Justice is both the Initiator and the Abrogator of its own laws.", & "whoso condeth with them hath contended with God..." (Baha'i World Faith, p 447.)...so it's on record, peace
aaronlee75 11 months ago
@aaronlee75 And the Guardian has stated "The Guardian… is bound to insist upon a reconsideration by them (the UHJ) of any enactment he conscientiously believes to conflict with the meaning and to depart from the spirit of Bahá’u’lláh’s revealed utterances.”
(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha’u’llah, p. 150)
So without a Guardian, the UHJ can very well lead the wrong (they have made mistakes btw, but why shouldn't they? THe are NOT omniscient.
PeyBar 11 months ago
Ultimately the Guardian would accept the UHJ's ruling even if he had reservations. But why have reservations in the first place? Does God not get it right the first time? Or maybe infallibility is something different from what most Bahai want to believe at face value. You aaron choose to believe things as black and white. Maybe it gives you peace of mind to do so. That's not for me to judge. What is sad though is that your type are ALL that the Bahai community seems to tolerate these days.
PeyBar 11 months ago
@aaronlee75 Yep, I agree. Anyone whoever goes to the point of trying to set up a parallel UHJ and lead people a different way as the official Bahai view- is going against the Covenant. No brainer on that. But that does not mean you can't criticize and discuss views. I'm sorry you aaron are just trying to create yet another Sharia type religion where an individual just bows his head to authority and shuts up. We have enough of those in this world. I hope that is NOT your vision of the future.
PeyBar 11 months ago
The Universal House of Justice is the supreme institution of the Baha'i Faith and is responsible for its affairs world-wide. It is the only institution on the face of the planet which has the authority to interpret the Writings of the Bab, and Baha'u'llah. The seat of the Universal House of Justice, in fulfillment of Biblical and other prophecies, has its seat on Gods Holy Mountain, Mt. Carmel, in Haifa, Israel.
jm3sb0nd007 11 months ago
@jm3sb0nd007 I will tell you again, the UHJ does NOT have the authority to interpret. They enforce the laws. At this moment, the present UHJ, has stated the law is homosexuality is wrong. A future UHJ, God-willing, may think otherwise. HOwever, there are signs from a recent letter from the UHJ that I have just read, that show that maybe they are changing their minds on how to approach legal, gay relationships in some societies. So maybe things will get better. Cheers!
PeyBar 11 months ago
@PeyBar In those areas in which the Guardian didn't weigh in on something the UHJ does have the authority to make judgements on it...and if a future UHJ chooses, to change that judgement. Abdul'baha said that he would defer to the judgements of that institution on issues. That didn't arrise durring his lifetime...but that is the authority placed in the institution. On homosexual activity...I don't think that there is any question as to the current ruling. The activity is forbidden.
aaronlee75 11 months ago
@aaronlee75 I agree with you. And that's why non-Bahais should be given the FULL picture as this video has done. Instead of just being given the pretty picture as jms3 and the institutions try to do when it comes to the issue. Then people can decide: not be a Bahai, be an inactive Bahai (like me) or join. It is about truth. However a recent letter from the UHJ does say that a gay couple legally married in a country should not be asked to divorce if they want to become Bahais,...
PeyBar 11 months ago
@PeyBar But should be taught that the "law" currently does not allow homosexual acts. This tells me they are being more lenient as times have changed- allowing gay couples to function in the Bahai community without having voting rights stripped and made to feel like second class citizens- as they have done in the past in the Bahai communities. But I'm not 100% sure of this new letter meaning this or not. You'll have to look it up if you are active in the Bahai community.
PeyBar 11 months ago
@PeyBar Anyway, it is really sad how far behind the Bahais are at the local grass-roots level. Local Bahai communities are stunted because they don't think they can think for themselves, not for an instance. SO unlike my friend's local Catholic congregation that has found how to accept LGBT people COMPLETELY and still stay within the Catholic church; the Bahais just sit waiting to move a millimeter according to what the UHJ says in a letter once a year.
PeyBar 11 months ago
@PeyBar I was saying that the UHJ *does* have limited authority to interpret...in areas where Effendi didn't. But to quote the Guardian; "(love)...between people of the same sex, to let it find expression in sexual acts is wrong." (notes 134, Aqdas, 1992 edition.) I've likened it to drug addiction. It's not a person's fault if they are an addict...it is though if they take drugs. Same is true orientation vs. active lifestyle. To be fair the same is true for all sexual promiscuity.
aaronlee75 11 months ago
@aaronlee75 There seems to be a permanent ban on all active homosexual relations. Likewise a person is forbidden from "sleeping around," and should be likewise sanctioned if they don't stop. We can't say that "drugs are bad...just say no" and then turn around and smoke a joint. We're supposed to try and help anyone with a sexual deviancy of anykind...not condemn them. The acts themselves can be condemned though. I've looked into this subject on and off for almost 20 years.
aaronlee75 11 months ago
@aaronlee75 It seems that people aren't strictly one or the other...not black/white so to speak. Rather, many "straight" guys, in prison or other circ., will have same sex affairs. Orientation has many degrees, few people are entirely 100%. We are all, though, responsible for our actions. It's on how we continue to act that we should be judged.
aaronlee75 11 months ago
@aaronlee75 Well I'm 100% gay and 100% Bahai. And I plan to find someone to love and create a family to advance civilization because THAT is what God wants. The most beloved thing before God's eyes is Justice it alllows you to see with your own eyes and not the eyes of others. HOwever, unfortunately, some in every religion can't think for themselves. Rather they rely on administration worship to tell them what to think. Kind of cultish don't you think?
PeyBar 11 months ago
Comment removed
shaztekk 10 months ago
@aaronlee75 Yes you can. Drugs don't create loving relationships and beautiful children that ever-advance civilization like some of the gay couples that I know. HOw would you like if I equated Bahai marriage with sexual deviancy of straight people?
PeyBar 11 months ago
@aaronlee75 You mean to quote a secretary of Shoghi Effendi writing on behalf of the Guardian using the pseudo science of Shoghi Effendi's day. Please don't say a quote of the Guardian. Your liking love between two people to a drug addiction is disgusting. Shame on you.
PeyBar 11 months ago
@aaronlee75 And again, no they can't interperet. Where did they get this limited authority? From you? Please share a quote. Abdul-Baha made it clear they enforce laws. And Shoghi Effendi made it absolutely clear they enforce laws and create laws that are not in the book. So they don't have power to interpret. If they have made such a claim, then they are going against the Covenant. I hope you are not.
PeyBar 11 months ago
@PeyBar Please do not take offense. All of us, myself VERY much included, have spiritual problems. It was to those spiritual problems, in general, that I was talking about.
"Today this process of deduction is the right of the body of the House of Justice, and the deductions and conclusions of individual learned men have no authority, unless they are endorsed by the House of Justice." From the will of Abdul'baha regarding future laws not covered by Baha'u'llah. LofG pg 317.
aaronlee75 11 months ago
@aaronlee75 My sexuality is NOT a problem, it is a blessing from God that allowed me to see with my own eyes and not the eyes of others. The onlty time I felt hopeless that it was a sickness, an abhorrent thing to the Creator and that I wanted to kill myself was when I was active in the Bahai community being fed that kind of Bull (as are kids in evangelical Christian churches). So I'm sorry about yoru spiritual problems, I'll pray for you. But don't lump my sexuality in with that.
PeyBar 11 months ago
@PeyBar Regarding "letters on behalf of the Guardian"...those were dictated and approved by S. Effendi before being sent out. The UHJ is considered by Baha'u'llah and Abdul'baha to be divinely guided in it's actions and dictates. Though not infallilbe, they do have the complete authority to rule on anything not expressly touched on by the founders. To create a law requires some level of interpretation. Even so, the Adminstration should never be allowed to become a bone of conention...
aaronlee75 11 months ago
@aaronlee75 Yes sent out with limiited authority to when Shoghi Effendi actually interpreted something as being binding. Otherwise, you need to start enforcing EVERY single letter that came out of some secretary. The UHJ is the ultimate authority in the Faith period. It was set up that way so the Faith does not break into a million pieces. That is ALL I agree with. They don't speak as if they were God and to worship them as such is idolatory.
PeyBar 11 months ago
The Guardianship and the Universal House of
Justice can thus be seen to be, in the words of Shoghi
Effendi, the "Twin Successors" of Bahá'u'lláh and 'Abdu'l-Bahá. (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 3)
jm3sb0nd007 11 months ago
@jm3sb0nd007 Exactly. Guardianship interpreted. UHJ enforced laws. So please stop saying the UHJ interprets. You are wrong. If you are going to be a literalist minded Bahai, as are fundamentalist Christians with the Bible, then at least get your Writings correct! Thanks!
PeyBar 11 months ago
Comment removed
shaztekk 10 months ago
@peybar Because the fact of the matter is, logic guiding, that if you believe in God, you believe in Baha'ullah, then from there you can stem from that and accept what the UHJ says as well as the writings too. The word of God is not molded to fit what is the most popular view, this life is very fleeting, we are children inside the womb still waiting to be born. Perhaps if you think of life like that you may glean some more meaning from the words and not just automatically think its gay bashing
jm3sb0nd007 11 months ago
@jm3sb0nd007 When a loving couple, raising children that are sometimes BETTER than any coming out of straigh, married Bahai familes is being told that they are abhorrent to the Creator and subverting human life, then yes it IS close-minded homophobia. So yes, people should investigate the Bahai community, but they should be given the FULL picture (not just selected quotes that make it all rosy, like you do). Then they can choose be active Bahais, or believe on their own as I do.
PeyBar 11 months ago
@peybar A little note for you. You are completely wrong as you will see in the following quotes.Do not belittle the knowledge of MY religion, you are NO Baha'i. You are one that was either one before and then angered by something to turn away from it and then seek to cast a shadow on it, or have failed to secure power within it. You have not the spirit of a Baha'i nor attitude for me to believe such a claim. A true Baha'i would not speak like so to another Baha'i nor about his religion---.
jm3sb0nd007 11 months ago
@jm3sb0nd007 Interesting, a true Bahai I thought would never be so self-righteous and haughty to proclaim who is and is not a Bahai. I think you should evaluate yoursefl first before casting any stones. Allah'u'abha!
PeyBar 11 months ago
And yet another quote from the letters of the UHJ never quoted by people like jm3sb...:"Both you and your Baha'i friend must first recognize that a homosexual relationship subverts the purpose of human life and that determined effort to overcome the wayward tendencies which promote this practice which, like other sexual vices, is so abhorrent to the Creator of all mankind will help you both to return to a path that leads to true happiness. (23 August 1982 to an individual believer)"
PeyBar 11 months ago
Letter from the Universal House of Justice, dated September 11, 1995, to a National Spiritual Assembly
"To regard homosexuals with prejudice and disdain would be entirely against the spirit of Bahá'í Teachings. The doors are open for all of humanity to enter the Cause of God, irrespective of their present circumstances; this invitation applies to homosexuals as well as to any others who are engaged in practices contrary to the Bahá'í Teachings."
jm3sb0nd007 11 months ago
@jm3sb0nd007 The UHJ has also said that gay people do not "try to be problem humans", that they have a spiritual disorder, that achild needs a mother and father (not two people of the same sex) raising it, that gay teens should try to overcome their sexuality, that reparative therapy is an option that should be looked into, etc. These are also in letters from past UHJ's that you seem to ignore quoting. I consider such words from the leaders of a world religion to be homophobic. Do you?
PeyBar 11 months ago
@jm3sb0nd007 From a letter from the Secretariat office dated July 5, 1993:
The Universal House of Justice has indicated that "To the question of alteration of homosexual bents, much study must be given, and doubtless in the future clear principles of prevention and treatment will emerge" (Extract 13)."
PeyBar 11 months ago
@Peybar 2 You should not just automatically dismiss the Universal House of Justice, since it is what truly represents the Baha'i Faith, not misguided individuals. Without going too much into it Baha'ullah specifically left the power to interpret and lead to `Abdu'l-Bahá, who then left it to the guardianship, then Shogi Effendi who then(being the last guardian), left it to the Universal House of Justice. Seeing the undeniable legitimate transfers, what the UHJ says cannot be disregarded.Example
jm3sb0nd007 11 months ago
@jm3sb0nd007 Just a little note you should look up. The UHJ was not left the authority to interpret. They have the authority to lead and enforce laws according to the circumstances of humanity. But that isnot interpretation. If you going to say something in support of our religion, then you should get it correct please.
PeyBar 11 months ago
@ Peybar #1 it would not prove anything to post all the different comments you have heard online, just as my story in my first comment holds little water, why? Because we both could have made it up to support our point. That's why I tell people to investigate for themselves at least we can agree there. And you may say I deny it exists, I on the other hand have seen no evidence of it. Baha'is are taught to banish prejudice of any kind. #2(Refer to next comment)
jm3sb0nd007 11 months ago
I love how the last 5 comments were by the same person. As for your response to me, perhaps you shouldn't generalize the rest of the faith off your grandmother? Just the same you're entitled to your opinion. For anyone not familiar with the faith they shouldn't take what anyone has to say face value like peybar(Even me!), they should investigate for themselves (One tenet is personal investigation of the truth, no clergy) or contact the Universal house of justice or national spiritual assembly.
jm3sb0nd007 11 months ago
@jm3sb0nd007 Well I actually agree with you on that. People should investigate the Bahai community. Because maybe, like I said in my below posts which you disregard, the community has changed. I haven't been active in years. So when was the last time your community had a seminar on ending homophobia? I know Bahais still do Race Unity day, deepening on equality of men and women, religious persecution etc etc. Are you addressing homophobia among Bahais? Or do you just deny it exists? Thanks!
PeyBar 11 months ago
@jm3sb0nd007 Also beyond my own mother's comments, if you like, I can share a number of other comments from Bahais that I have heard inside of the 6 different Bahai communities that I have lived in in the US. Maybe the community has changed now at the grassroots level, but I would attribute this to a generational change among young Bahais in the West. The Bahai Administration is NOT the reason for this. Unfortunately it is society leading the way towards LGBT aceeptance, not the UHJ..
PeyBar 11 months ago
Comment removed
jm3sb0nd007 11 months ago
Question to the Bahais here who believe that the Bahai community is tolerant of LGBT people. When was the last time you went to a Bahai deepening, fireside whatever- where the issue of homophobia, especially inside the Bahai community, was addressed? I never have- not once in my entire Bahai life. Of course I stopped being active inthe late 90's- so maybe things have changed. Seriously has anything changed? It's easy to pull out words of tolerance- harder to show proof.
PeyBar 11 months ago
I have family friends who are gay and also friends of the faith. They are not baha'is themselves but they respect it and likewise they are treated with equal respect. Sometimes the Word of God goes against our preconceived notions., this is a test for many. However, let it be said that Baha'is do respect everyone equally, no one is trying to force people to join, nor say they are evil. This is obviously made by someone with a grudge with the faith otherwise they wouldn't have made a video. Peace
jm3sb0nd007 11 months ago
@jm3sb0nd007 My Persian mother, generations Bahai like me, once said there was no difference between gays wanting to get married and gay teens being executed in Iran. So obviously she did not get the memo that Bahai treat gays with respect. She would never make such a comment about Blacks or Jews, yet somehow it's ok to do so when it comes to gay people. So maybe the "grudge" you see is from those of us who are tired of the facade of tolerance that Bahais try to portray.
PeyBar 11 months ago
The reality is that inside the Bahai community, such tolerance does not exist. That is why I am not active in it, nor will I be until gay families are treated equally and with respect. But fortunately we can love Bahaullah on our own. It's just sad to see the Bahai community continuing to shrink and be out of step with justice.
PeyBar 11 months ago
The Baha'i Faiths view on Homosexuality is that it is not condemned, you could be a Baha'i and be homosexual, it is however, condemned to be a sexually active homosexual.
Why would you make a video about this? No one has forced you to become a Baha'i and many religions have far stricter views on homosexuality, if you love the Baha'i Faith so much as to make a video like this one, then you would overlook what you see as a mistake and follow the will of God.
shaztekk 1 year ago
@shaztekk If you feel the need to have a homosexual relationship, then the Baha'i Faith is not for you, Baha'is cannot and will not change the laws written down for them and a petition will have no affect on the laws of the religion.
shaztekk 1 year ago
@shaztekk Why? Because there are gay couples with kids raising beautiful children who are being told they are diseased and problem people for creating such a family. This is about keeping the Bahai Faith from becoming yet another fundamentalist minded, cultish group of people who are not willing to be on the forefront of justice. I follow the Will of God- that is the most of beloved thing in His eyes being JUSTICE. Go to look that up please!
PeyBar 11 months ago
@shaztekk Wow, seriously? THAT is how you measure how great your version of the Bahai Faith is? That it has less stricter views on homosexuality, so therefore it is better? Give me a break. It is a shame that Bahais like you pride yourself in how "tolerant" the Bahais are towards LGBT people because why? Gays aren't shunned, tortured or killed by the Bahai Faith? Meanwhile, so many other Faith communities are opened their hearts, mind and communities. Abdul-Baha would have done the same!
PeyBar 11 months ago
@PeyBar I only gave the view on homosexuality by the Baha'i faith, I don't understand why this would make you upset, I was merely stating, that if the person who uploaded the video doesn't like the views Baha'is have on homosexuality, why bother making the video? I am not "proud" of the fact that Baha'is have far less discrimination against gays, and even if I was, what harm is there in being happy that your faith does not shun, kill and torture people?
shaztekk 10 months ago
@shaztekk No you didn't. You gave YOUR understanding Bahaullah said nothing expect condemn sex with slave boys. Your understanding of the Bahai Faith would call for the punishment of gays in a future Bahai society, not just people who have sex with children as Bahaullah mentions. But again, how do you argue with a fundamentalist. I suggest you leave the Faith. You are turning the Bahai community into a cultish little group of people no different from some Christian churches. Sad!
PeyBar 10 months ago
Youtube would not let me continue, here is the rest: "Meanwhile, so many other Faith communities are opened their hearts, mind and communities" I'm sorry to inform you, but my "version" of the Baha'i faith is based on writings in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas and if you disagree with what is said in there, I suggest you renounce your faith. I am not against gays (something I tried my hardest to show in my first comment) I am only telling all the people watching this video, that this is the Baha'i view.
shaztekk 10 months ago
@shaztekk Again you are a blind fundamentalist, somethign that the Bahais are not supposed to be. But how do you argue with someone who uses Lights of Guidance as their guidebook to life instead of their heart and mind.
PeyBar 10 months ago
@PeyBar HUH your one funny guy! I am in no way perfect nor fundamentalist, I do not use The Lights Of Gjidance as a guide for my everyday life! HUH I ws using it as an example, you don't show a single sign of how a Baha'i should act you are in truth a covenant breaker and I shall pray for you.
shaztekk 10 months ago
@shaztekk And you do? Calling fellow Bahais covenant breakers? What kind of community are you creating? A loving tolerant one that accepts all of humanity as Abdul-Baha had wanted,, or a stifling, cultish,, inwarding looking community that shuns others? So sad. But don't worry Shaz, I'm not active in the Bahai community, nor will I ever be as long as there are people like you in it. LGBT are more welcome in my friend's local church- and they are Catholic! But..
PeyBar 10 months ago
@PeyBar do keep posting please. It shows the world what types of people they will find inside the Bahai community. I don't need to describe it, you are doing a fine job shaz! :o)
PeyBar 10 months ago
@PeyBar 1. Stop calling me Shaz im not your friend. 2. Stop trying to make me look bad when your going against your own religion. 3. Although it is very true that people of the Baha'i faith are sometimes complete idiots, on the subject that your talking about it simply doesn't matter because not only do some of the people not agree with you, but all the leaders of The Bahai Faith past and present disagree with you. Oh and by the way, complete disregard of your community doesn't seem very Baha'i.
shaztekk 10 months ago
@shaztekk I feel your pain, I see what you feel, you love the Faith, and it's teachings, you can't bare the fact that it doesn't agree with your behavior, if you look deep in your heart and soul, you will find God waiting there, to help you with your endeavors. That's all, it's all I have to say. Good luck"
shaztekk 10 months ago
@shaztekk Wow, you really are full of self-righteousness aren't you? Keep posting...
PeyBar 10 months ago
i am a Bahai. I have always thought of my self beeing modern and inteligent. The question of what bahai thinks of gays never acured to me. Now that I know Bahai thins homossexuality is a disability I AM ASHAMED and I am not gay. I think this way of thinking is premetive
Gandom44 1 year ago
I am a Bisexual and I am a Baha'i.
It looks like you were having quite a heated discussion and also the audio of the video has been disabled. I can't get involved. But I would ask anyone who's interested what they think the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith was talking about when he referred to Homosexuality being a 'handicap.' FYI I was not brought up in the Faith or any other religion. But my Mum breeds RACEHORSES. There's a big clue for you.
Namaste!
tashaclaire1 1 year ago
All religions are exclusive.
All religions are repressive.
Sucks when you're not among the chosen.
356pla 1 year ago
@PeyBar There is nothing wrong about what SWIFTisHERE said and he is certainly not ignorant. What he said is accurate. I suggest that for your own sake, you address your own problem by getting proper professional help. Are you still a Baha'i or not. If you are not, then what are you complaining about?
cameronmoj 1 year ago
@cameronmoj
PeyBar 1 year ago
@cameronmoj It is accurate that there is ignorance against gays inside the Bahai community. If I can shine a light on any community that tells its vulnerable (especially youth) that they are unnatural, then I will. You sent us on a false quest to overcome our sexuality which harmed our souls and led some to suicide. So you better believe I will not let this continue in silence! The only thing I can do is let the world know. You want to continue in your ignorance, then so be it.
PeyBar 1 year ago
@PeyBar All religions are exclusive.
All religions are repressive.
Sucks when you're not among the chosen.
356pla 1 year ago
@356pla Actually, no the Bahai Faith is not supposed to be that way. There are Writings that may lead one to believe that, but there are also Writings that lead one completely to the opposite view. The us vs. them attitude is not supposed to exist among Bahais. But to some extent you are correct. There will always be fundamentalists minded individuals in every religion that thrive on this exclusivist view. And unfortunately, the leadership of said religions needs those people to stay in power.
PeyBar 1 year ago
@PeyBarBaha'i s got books. They say what they say. Different people who want the power to pronounce what is meant by those words now fight. It is a young religion and has not yet gained much power, let alone the control of a government. While this religion is young the only people they have the power to hurt are those who are close by.
356pla 1 year ago
@cameronmoj There is nothing wrong, unnatural or sinful about being gay and in a committed loving relationship. It is ignorant (ignoring science; something Bahais are supposed to believein) to tell a gay youth in your community that they need to get a doctor's help to overcome this. Your ignorance has led to the suicide of gay youth in the Bahai community and you should take responsibility for that. You don't speak for Bahaullah- only for your own prejudices.
PeyBar 1 year ago
@cameronmoj Oh and buddy, yep I"m still a Bahai. Albeit I won't be active as long as homophobes like you are the only ones given a voice inside the Bahai community. So enjoy being in a community tha tis shrinking and being less and less in touch with the world. Ishallah things will change in my life time.
PeyBar 1 year ago
To all the Bahais who have overcome the pain and suffering of the Bahai community and it's administration, please google the "It gets better" project. Share your story there as I did. All in the hopes that gay children inside the Bahai community will read it and be saved from the ignorance espoused by individual's like this Swift character below.
PeyBar 1 year ago
its not about equality, its stating that this is a handicap that must be overcome, the same way any other mental illness, that is identified as a mental illness, should be cured or atleast tried to be cured. It is a burden on the individual with it. It can destroy families and can lead to humiliation. although this doesnt mean they shouldnt be treated equally, they are human beings and their sexuality is their problem, it is merely a way of guiding those that find themselves with this problem.
SWIFTisHERE 1 year ago
@SWIFTisHERE Oh swift please. Tell us something we haven't heard before. If you think "they" should be treated equally, then start with the Bahai community. Allow gay couples with their kids to be equal with straight married Bahais and their kids. Open up the community to all and stop telling poor Bahai kids (like I was) that they have a mentla illness. We don't. I never did. All my pain and suffering came about because of the Bahai community and ignorant people like yourself. I'm free now.
PeyBar 1 year ago
What I've always found interesting with people inside the Bahai community who are so adamantly opposed to equal rights for LGBT people is that they themselves are battling with demons related to sexuality. Either they are in conflict with their own sexuality or they have been traumatized in some way by an LGBT person and now they have to take it on all of us. Very strange.
PeyBar 1 year ago
@SofarFurniture How long can someone keep saying over and over again that being gay is immoral, not normal, spread diseases, etc before it starts turning into trolling?
PeyBar 1 year ago
we believe that a marriage should be a man and a woman so we are not discriminating we are just saying that it is not accepted. and we do not shut homosexuals out we just help them become straight!
and ur stupid petition isnt gonna stop us from our teachings. we can do what we want and you can do the same!
amieeheartsfred 1 year ago
@amieeheartsfred and as a fifth generation Bahai, I can make sure that the world knows that "unity in diversity" does not include gays and lesbians inside the Bahai community. I'll make sure to post her "stupid" petition on all progressive and gay friendly sites, so that they know how the Bahai community treats gays and lesbians (as you have just demonstrated). Btw, please check out the "It Gets Better Project" online.
PeyBar 1 year ago
@PeyBar Maybe the LGBT Bahais who survived the mental/emotional abuse inside the Bahai community of being told by the UHJ and Bahais like amie that they are "problem people" (see the letter written by the UHJ), have a spiritual disorder, need to turn straight to function inside the community, etc etc. maybe these Bahais should make videos for young gay Bahais inside the Bahai commuity who are currently hurting. Let them know that "It will get better"!
PeyBar 1 year ago
@PeyBar and listen to me we treat them with respect and its just what we believe so GET OVER IT! we cannot change our law against gays and lesbians as it isnt our choice and the universal house of justice will not do it. understand?
amieeheartsfred 1 year ago
@amieeheartsfred yes i understand that you take a fundamentalist view, but I don't. And I as well as many others ARE Bahais. There is no law against gay marriage. There is no law against two men or women making a family. But there is prejudice in the Bahai community against LGBT people. THAT i understnad.
PeyBar 1 year ago
@amieeheartsfred Btw Ms. Amie. Have you googled the "it gets better project"? It is helping gay youth who are thinking of committing suicide to realize that life will get better. Did you know that Bahai youth who were gay committed suicide because of the nonsense that people like you espouse inside the Bahai community? Yes, YOU are responsible. I will make sure that any future kids inside the Bahai community know that it will get better and not to listen to the nonsense you espouse.
PeyBar 1 year ago
@amieeheartsfred You wrote: "and listen to me we treat them with respect... so GET OVER IT!"
And,
"we are not discriminating we are just saying that it is not accepted. and we do not shut homosexuals out we just help them become straight!"
So, you are a comedian?
Maybe revisit your definitions of "respect" and "discriminate."
notmytruname 1 year ago
Comment removed
amieeheartsfred 1 year ago
@SofarFurniture It is never unfair to block trolling. I deleted DivineInterllect's inappropriate comments, and unless you are DI commenting from a second account, I doubt you know what they were. Trolls do not deserve a forum or our time.
I am glad to know that you (and them, etc) are paying attention. Thanks.
notmytruname 1 year ago
@DivineInterllect Blocked. Persistent nonsense. You may not just re-state not facts here over and over.
notmytruname 1 year ago
@DivineInterllect "Science" doesn't discourage anal sex. And anal sex is not the same thing as homosexuality, by the way. If you are against anal sex, please go comment on someone's videos that are about anal sex- (you know straight couples have anal sex.) This video is about equal rights for all people. Stay on topic.
And again, medical science and psychology absolutely do *not* identify "risks" of one sexual orientation over another.
notmytruname 1 year ago
@NLOFU Unjust human made laws. And homosexuality appears in many different species.
notmytruname 1 year ago
@DivineInterllect Who's being immoral? I consider my committed friends who are raising kids to be VERY moral. I'm sorry that you don't. But you have a bad case of what is called prejudice. And I find a man who abuses his wife in holy church-sanctioned matrimony to be very immoral. But I wouldn't judge ALL straight marriages according to the auctions of many. Why then do you judge gays?
PeyBar 1 year ago
@DivineInterllect Ahhh, so it al boils down to my "spirituality" is right and yours is wrong. Got it! It has nothing to do with actual facts. Ok, then there really is nothign to argue. You can't argue with prejudice.
PeyBar 1 year ago