As I am now teaching a class in Revelation this discussion is a very relevant one. Not only the question of 'he who with holds' in 2 Thess. but in matters pertaining to the "Day of the Lord" which will be initiated with Rev.6 as this man of sin is revealed. I am seeing more and more how 1 and 2 Thess. address awareness and preparation for the Day of the Lord.
@cornetcharlie Check my Playlists, Charlie. Under "The Harpazo" there are more videos about @ Thessalonians 2. Also You'll see a Playlist where I cover the entire book of Revelation, verse by verse.
The Holy Spirit has many functions -- perhaps "restrainer" is just one more aspect. However, it is clear that during the tribulation, the Holy Spirit still functions as one who woos the unbeliever to salvation. So the Holy Spirit is not removed from the earth, but perhaps that quality of His that keeps chaos away at bay is removed. I agree that Eliezer is a type of the Holy Spirit.
I like your prophecy of "gates of hell not prevail" great understanding!
This is a very controversial subject. Please post Biblical references and points rather than personal, argumentative statements that only add conflict to this page.
Where did Paul get any knowledge of the trumpet call at all? Would it not be from God, therefore what does he need Johns writings for? It is interesting that rev 10:7 and 1 cor 15:51-52 align extemely well, including the use of a "mystery" being shown in 1 Cor, and revealed in Rev directly before the last trumpet. And then when the trumpet is blown,"The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever." Meaning what? He has come.
My last comment didnt get posted, but in 1 tim 4:1 it says that "the spirit clearly says," referring to the apo. So then could "the spirit" not reveal to paul knowledge the trumpet call? If so, why then would you say it could not be the same trump in revelation only because it hadnt been written yet? If "the spirit" is revealing these things to Paul, why would he need Johns writings?
You are correct ... 1 Timothy 4:1 clearly says that in the end times people will depart from the faith. This is why I agree that applying "apostacy" to 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is understandable, but not exactly accurate to the verse.
The reason I say that the trumpets mentioned in 1 Corinthians and 1 Thessalonians shouldn't be claimed as the 7th Trumpet in Revelation is simply because Revelation wasn't available; if Paul couldn't refer to it, then we shouldn't either.
Further ... if Paul was refering to the 7th Trumpet in Revelation then we would see confirmation in Revelation to that. In fact, we do not. The many scriptures that speak of the Harpazo are not to be found in Revelation (after chapter 3).
For example, in John 14:2-3, Jesus says "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also." In Revelation, Jesus returns and doesn't **take** anyone anywhere.
Well it says where He will be, we will be also. So if he is reigning here, after his Kingdom( the one he prepared for us) is on the earth, would we not be with Him? Interestingly, in Rev 11:12 a voice from heaven says "come up here" and the two witnesses ascend in a cloud. THEN the angel sounds the 7th trumpet and the "kindgom of the world becomes the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ" Theres a lot of parallels there, but I still dont see any reason they couldnt be referring to the same trumpet
The important thing is to seek His Truth yourself through prayer and searching out the scriptures. Then you don't have to concern yourself with what anyone else says.
Most definitely. And thanks for entertaining my questions. I only probe to get to the bedrock of the different eschatological beliefs in my attempts to understand them and find out whether they are scripturally sound. Its a little strange to me that most everything in Gods word is very clear, but end times material, even with all that is written about it, is still so debated. To me, the only corrupt element is ourselves and our interpretations, so thats what I have been analyzing
Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
Queenster2 - likewise in Revelation 4:1 it says "come up here". I believe this is a sign of the rapture. Keep in mind that in Revelation 2 and 3 the Church is still on the earth. In 4:1 we see "come up here" and now they are in heaven.
Also, back in Noah's day what happened to Enoch prior to the flood?. God took him.
bodysupport - You got it. Look at Revelation 3:10 which says "I will keep you FROM the hour of trial ..." -- "from" is the Greek word "ek" which means "OUT of" (this is the Harpazo) and the "hour of trial" is referring to the Great Tribulation.
Note: Enoch was harpazo'ed BEFORE the flood ... just like the Called Out Ones will be harpazo'ed before the Great Tribulation.
I appreciate what you are doing despite any disagreement we may have, we are brothers in Christ. Rev. 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. 1Cor 15:51-52a Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump. We have a mystery and the last trump in both verses. Any thoughts
@Aaronpodgorski Many people mistake the Trumpets in the Book of Revelation to be associated with the "last trump" of 1 Corinthians ... but the last trump is not "the Seventh Trumpet." Check out my video series titled "Be Watchful" ... the Feast of Trumpets represents God's Holy Appointment for the Harpazo and *this* is what the "last trump" refers to; the blowing of the shofar.
My question would be: Where do you find another last trump in Rev. and what mystery is it referring to in Rev. 10:7? Mainly I want to know your take on the Mystery of God being finished.
@Aaronpodgorski There is no "last trump" in the Book of Revelation ... that phrase is only seen in Corinthians. The Mystery of God, as I understand it, is the dilemma of evil in the world; it will be done away with forevermore.
2Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
Using one word--out of context---to dispute an on-point criticism...really, Alan. You twisted the plain rendering in favor of a VERY selective rendering of ginomai. What is your source lexicon for the Greek?
ginomai- prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be. Used 636 times in the NT with a wide variety of renderings .
Out of context? It's from Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible ... the word "taken" in 2 Thessalonians 2:7 is the original Greek word, referenced as Strong's #G1096. It's as I quoted and not out of context at all; I'm merely describing the meanings applied to the word ... all of which are very much in context as far as every understanding of the Harpazo goes. Don't blame me if they all fit an idea you wish didn't exist.
As I am now teaching a class in Revelation this discussion is a very relevant one. Not only the question of 'he who with holds' in 2 Thess. but in matters pertaining to the "Day of the Lord" which will be initiated with Rev.6 as this man of sin is revealed. I am seeing more and more how 1 and 2 Thess. address awareness and preparation for the Day of the Lord.
cornetcharlie 1 month ago
@cornetcharlie Check my Playlists, Charlie. Under "The Harpazo" there are more videos about @ Thessalonians 2. Also You'll see a Playlist where I cover the entire book of Revelation, verse by verse.
WatchAlan 1 month ago
Good video and I agree. A quick comment tho on the role of the Holy Spirit...
The Holy Spirit does convict the world of sin and evil:
John 16:8,9
And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me
So 2 Thes 2:7 does seem to be the Holy Spirit like you said.
Psalms 51:11
"Do not cast me away from Your presence, And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me. "
bodysupport 2 years ago
The Holy Spirit has many functions -- perhaps "restrainer" is just one more aspect. However, it is clear that during the tribulation, the Holy Spirit still functions as one who woos the unbeliever to salvation. So the Holy Spirit is not removed from the earth, but perhaps that quality of His that keeps chaos away at bay is removed. I agree that Eliezer is a type of the Holy Spirit.
I like your prophecy of "gates of hell not prevail" great understanding!
meggy8868 2 years ago
Exactly!
:o)
The Holy Spirit operates on the earth during the Trib just as He did before Christ. Let's not forget what Christ said;
Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you (John 16:7).
WatchAlan 2 years ago
This is a very controversial subject. Please post Biblical references and points rather than personal, argumentative statements that only add conflict to this page.
Thanks.
WatchAlan 2 years ago
Comment removed
CaptainJackSpizzo 2 years ago
But as always, good stuff.
Let the iron continue to sharpen.
Queenster2 2 years ago
Where did Paul get any knowledge of the trumpet call at all? Would it not be from God, therefore what does he need Johns writings for? It is interesting that rev 10:7 and 1 cor 15:51-52 align extemely well, including the use of a "mystery" being shown in 1 Cor, and revealed in Rev directly before the last trumpet. And then when the trumpet is blown,"The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever." Meaning what? He has come.
Queenster2 2 years ago
Paul's reference to the trumpet call is most likely from the Feast of Trumpets ... certainly not relating to the Book of Revelation.
WatchAlan 2 years ago
My last comment didnt get posted, but in 1 tim 4:1 it says that "the spirit clearly says," referring to the apo. So then could "the spirit" not reveal to paul knowledge the trumpet call? If so, why then would you say it could not be the same trump in revelation only because it hadnt been written yet? If "the spirit" is revealing these things to Paul, why would he need Johns writings?
Queenster2 2 years ago
You are correct ... 1 Timothy 4:1 clearly says that in the end times people will depart from the faith. This is why I agree that applying "apostacy" to 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is understandable, but not exactly accurate to the verse.
The reason I say that the trumpets mentioned in 1 Corinthians and 1 Thessalonians shouldn't be claimed as the 7th Trumpet in Revelation is simply because Revelation wasn't available; if Paul couldn't refer to it, then we shouldn't either.
WatchAlan 2 years ago
Further ... if Paul was refering to the 7th Trumpet in Revelation then we would see confirmation in Revelation to that. In fact, we do not. The many scriptures that speak of the Harpazo are not to be found in Revelation (after chapter 3).
For example, in John 14:2-3, Jesus says "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also." In Revelation, Jesus returns and doesn't **take** anyone anywhere.
WatchAlan 2 years ago
Well it says where He will be, we will be also. So if he is reigning here, after his Kingdom( the one he prepared for us) is on the earth, would we not be with Him? Interestingly, in Rev 11:12 a voice from heaven says "come up here" and the two witnesses ascend in a cloud. THEN the angel sounds the 7th trumpet and the "kindgom of the world becomes the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ" Theres a lot of parallels there, but I still dont see any reason they couldnt be referring to the same trumpet
Queenster2 2 years ago
Ask Abba Father to reveal His Truth to you.
:o)
The important thing is to seek His Truth yourself through prayer and searching out the scriptures. Then you don't have to concern yourself with what anyone else says.
WatchAlan 2 years ago
Most definitely. And thanks for entertaining my questions. I only probe to get to the bedrock of the different eschatological beliefs in my attempts to understand them and find out whether they are scripturally sound. Its a little strange to me that most everything in Gods word is very clear, but end times material, even with all that is written about it, is still so debated. To me, the only corrupt element is ourselves and our interpretations, so thats what I have been analyzing
Queenster2 2 years ago
Way to go. We should all be like the Bereans.
:o)
Acts 17:11
Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
WatchAlan 2 years ago
Queenster2 - likewise in Revelation 4:1 it says "come up here". I believe this is a sign of the rapture. Keep in mind that in Revelation 2 and 3 the Church is still on the earth. In 4:1 we see "come up here" and now they are in heaven.
Also, back in Noah's day what happened to Enoch prior to the flood?. God took him.
bodysupport 2 years ago
bodysupport - You got it. Look at Revelation 3:10 which says "I will keep you FROM the hour of trial ..." -- "from" is the Greek word "ek" which means "OUT of" (this is the Harpazo) and the "hour of trial" is referring to the Great Tribulation.
Note: Enoch was harpazo'ed BEFORE the flood ... just like the Called Out Ones will be harpazo'ed before the Great Tribulation.
WatchAlan 2 years ago
I appreciate what you are doing despite any disagreement we may have, we are brothers in Christ. Rev. 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. 1Cor 15:51-52a Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump. We have a mystery and the last trump in both verses. Any thoughts
Aaronpodgorski 1 year ago
@Aaronpodgorski Many people mistake the Trumpets in the Book of Revelation to be associated with the "last trump" of 1 Corinthians ... but the last trump is not "the Seventh Trumpet." Check out my video series titled "Be Watchful" ... the Feast of Trumpets represents God's Holy Appointment for the Harpazo and *this* is what the "last trump" refers to; the blowing of the shofar.
WatchAlan 1 year ago
My question would be: Where do you find another last trump in Rev. and what mystery is it referring to in Rev. 10:7? Mainly I want to know your take on the Mystery of God being finished.
Aaronpodgorski 1 year ago
@Aaronpodgorski There is no "last trump" in the Book of Revelation ... that phrase is only seen in Corinthians. The Mystery of God, as I understand it, is the dilemma of evil in the world; it will be done away with forevermore.
WatchAlan 1 year ago
2Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
Using one word--out of context---to dispute an on-point criticism...really, Alan. You twisted the plain rendering in favor of a VERY selective rendering of ginomai. What is your source lexicon for the Greek?
ginomai- prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be. Used 636 times in the NT with a wide variety of renderings .
TheChaoSurfer 2 years ago
Out of context? It's from Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible ... the word "taken" in 2 Thessalonians 2:7 is the original Greek word, referenced as Strong's #G1096. It's as I quoted and not out of context at all; I'm merely describing the meanings applied to the word ... all of which are very much in context as far as every understanding of the Harpazo goes. Don't blame me if they all fit an idea you wish didn't exist.
WatchAlan 2 years ago