some capitalists have discovered the value of sharing some of the profits with the workers, thus there are profit sharing programs and stock option plans. If we could could a sizeable number of employee owned (worker) cooperatives that could compete with the traditional corporations, it might force corporations to act more co-op like in order to compete with coops. Such as giving a greater voice to workers (democracy, at least some democracy) and greater profit share/wages and benefits.
You know and you don't even need to read any Karl Marx books to see how shitty the living standards of most americans is. You know USA has this tricky system of paying many workers 40,000 a year. But you know something? those 40,000s belong to you for a few hours only. But they really belong to utility corporations, direct TV, insurance companies, lending companies, banks, IRS, etc. So in USA the worker who makes 40,000 makes a lot less really. What a tricky system !!
I am a firm supporter for this type of social market system. this way, we can remove the presence of government and capitalist greed from exploiting the worker. This is the sort of worker's democracy that they had in Yugoslavia before the went in to civil war. All economies should be based off the worker's democracy economic philosophy. This system would be the best system, better than either socialism or capitalism.
i guess we can add LIAR to your list of vices. i dont believe youve never touched drugs or alchohol. especialy since you are an athiest. not even pope john paul the 3 or mother theresa managed to go through life with out ever experimenting with drugs or alchohol. but i guess you are in denial. i also mentioned gambling but i notice you didnt catch on that. that is because your guilty conscience didnt go off. becuase your ARENT a compulsive gambler...but you ARE a drug addicted alchoholic.
LOL i hit the nail on the head with that alchoholic drug addict coment huh? otherwise you wouldnt of stopped the debate so soon. the truth will set you free the sooner you admit you have a problem with drugs and alchohol the sooner you will be back in controll of your life
@markbotv3 lol you are an idiot. i am straight edge douche bag. never touched drugs or alcohol in my life. i blocked you because you are a fucking moron, which shows when you post comments like that. now fuck off and get a life, possibly learn something, though i doubt you are capable.
onother problem with socialism is the guy who works in a sewer gets paid the same as the guy who gets blowjobs all day for a living. under capitalism the sewer worker would be compensated well for working is such a (pardon the pun) shitty job. and the guy who gets blowjobs all day wouldnt get paid for receiving them he would have to pay for them.
@markbotv3 Well, both capitalism and communism have failed our economies. The companies of the word are not democratically run and the results of the medieval hierarchical framework of these companies is easy to see in the news today. People are out of work and the planet is being polluted to feed greedy executives. A socialistic framework for a company doesn't necessarily mean the conditions you describe, though. People get paid for the work they do.
@CanadianoftheCoast people are out of work because their is too much regulation on free enterprise. that and TOO many people are wage earners instead of business owners. whether that business be a small farm or a trade skill. not enuff people own their own business. and when you are dependant on others. when the economy takes a hit. so do you. but when you rely on yourself you always have work. which is why capitalism always succeeds in the end and socialism fails before 75 year aniversary
@markbotv3 That is one opinion, but I disagree. People are out of work because there has been way too much spending on credit in the past few years. That spending is driving budgets into the ground. More people and businesses go bankrupt and the system collapses. Sadly, the capitalistic culture isbuilt on the lending/borrowing system but that system is failing. Thus we have our current economic problems.
@CanadianoftheCoast ROFL omfg...do you HONESTLY think bp CHOSE to do deep water drilling in the gulf? cmon dude REALLY?!?!?!? if so then you just outed your self in public as a fucking retard. NO!!!!! BP did NOT choose to drill in deep water. the govt TOLD them to drill there. that is to say it was regulation that caused the oil spill NOT capitalism. if left alone they would of drilled in shallow water more profit. less danger. un restricted capitalism is the only way out of this mess.
@markbotv3 If corporations were given more "freedoms" like what you say, there would be more oils spills like in the gulf and toxic waste spills like in Eastern Europe. Then there would be no more natural resources to sustain us.
The only way to counter this is to put the workers in charge of the companies. This is why the U.N. announced that 2012 will be the year of the cooperative.
Capitalism unrestrained is a failed concept just like communism.
@CanadianoftheCoast and the spill in eastern europe was STATE RUN. so again you cant blame capitalism on that. seeing how it was your precious govt that was in charge of that cluster fuck. why do you morons love the govt so much? do you like getting fucked in the ass? the govt cant do anything right. everything it touches turns to shit. trust in the PEOPLE we are the only ones who know what the fuck is going on. not the govt.
@markbotv3 Well, being that you've taken what could have been a mature intelligent conversation and drug it through the mud with childish insults, I'm calling this conversation over. However, I am correct in what I say and am not alone in this opinion: Capitalism and communism have both failed the people they were meant to serve.
Socialism (if you know the term, you know it means putting power into the hands of the people you say we should trust) is our best bet for a better life.
@CanadianoftheCoast socialism is when the govt controlls 60% or more of the economy. has nothing to do with the people. because power is in the hands of an elite few. middle aged europe was a socialist society for the most part. do you want to be a serf?
@markbotv3 no, that is neither socialism nor communism. you both need to educate yourself. socialism = workers' control over the means of production. communism = socialism + distribution according to need.
@eboyd32 lol the workers being in controll of production?!?!?!? ROFL ya that would work...NOT!!! i can see it now the workers would punch in and then everyone would stand around with their thumbs up their asses not doing a damn thing. that is the fundamental flaw of socialism. it DEMANDS that every body be a perfect angel and do what they are supposed to do...but then it also insists that angels dont exist. so how can it possibly work? that is why it never has worked and it NEVER WILL give up
@markbotv3 that may be the case on occasion, but the same is the case for large corporations who pay their workers by the hour. you ever walk into a store with a sales floor, like a corporate auto parts store? i used to work at one when i was 18 so i know that whether we played pranks all day or actually worked we still got paid the same for it. that doesn't change just because you have vertical management...
...in fact many would argue that it is actually the coop business that incentivizes workers to get things done because each member has to play a management role to an extent as well as the role of an employee. and also, in many coops, where management is needed, the role of manager is rotated throughout the workforce.
@eboyd32 that is a scary thought. i know people who cant even manage their own lives. now you are saying they will be "rotated in" to manage mine? FUCK THAT!!! let them learn how to controll their own impulses before you randomly and arbitrarilly put them in charge of other people. how much fucking damage can a drug addicted alcoholic gambler do to a company before a responsible manager gets rotated in? in my experience workers are ALWAYS alchoholics or drug addicts...
@eboyd32 which is ussually the reason they are workers and not managers in a normal company. capitalism is a meritocracy. that means good behavior is rewarded and rewarded richly. and bad behavior is punished and punished severely. and dont start whining about bail outs. cause bail outs arent capitalism that is corperate welfare and safety nets are the calling cards of socialism. sink or swim on your own merit. stop expecting people to come save your ass when Y0U fuck up
trustcurrency (dot) blogspot (dot) com (slash) 2009 (slash) 12 (slash) worker-cooperative-productivity (dot) html
watch?v=oyxW4xDq_eE
watch?v=NORmQ8zaL1c
if you do even minute research you will find that you are absolutely fucking wrong. not only do coops exist and work perfectly today, they employ more people around the world and are more efficient than vertically integrated corporations.
Co-operatives can work within a capitalistic society, but any society based upon capitalism must change to a more co-operative society in order to survive. The current state of the world is a testament to this fact. It has, historically and within our current economic framework, been considered that success = more money. This, lately, has been proven to be false.
I believe success only occurs when everyone gets a lifestyle they want.
@ashikapk in cooperatives the wealth is shared. fourtune 500 companies don't want to share the wealth. they wnat it all to themselves. obviously. lol.
@ashikapk Worker cooperatives have been around for many years the IWW has been around for more than 100 years and most of the cooperative that were established during the depression are still here and Best western which is a retailers cooperative has been around since 1946. Credit unions operate under a cooperative system as well. in a cooperative the people who actively participate are the shareholders. Why should I work if I'm not going to get a good deal for my labor?
Even though you are completly dependent on society to maintain your way of life. I can tell you buy into a fony individualism. You would'nt be enjoying things like the ability to buy food at a grocery store, electricity, or housing if it wasnt for other people ( the farmers, the construction workers, the laborers). We are all dependent on one another in some way shape or form and until we start recognizing this we have no hope.
Thats called market socialism. Definately not the worst idea I have ever heard. It would not be a bad system. I believe in active-use property rights, which would yield workers co-operatives also.
@patient0Studios ...uh guys...check your history. Coop is American as apple pie. At the beginning of the ind rev....trade unions...and such..de facto coops themselves...viewed "wages" as tanamount to slavery. Coop was the way to go until the advent of the corporation..and havent they just fucked that up all to hell.
@patient0Studios Marxism included a transition period in which we go from a state in which there is a "dictatorship of the proletariat" which is the only difference between Marxism and anarchism. as for syndicalism, that was a movement that involved revolution through radical unionism. that is absent from Marxist theory.
@patient0Studios and what if you put NOTHING in? like a grandma or something. are they gonna get paid still? cause if they are then the workers are having to work harder for the dependant classes. which will be less motivation for them. untill they decide to quit altogether and join the dependant class that gets paid for doing absolutely nothing. and his neighbor sees him getting paid for nothing so he does the same thing. and so on and so on
@AnarchyIsForMe and what is wrong with the workers STOP being depandant whiney little bitches all their lives and grow a pair and start a factory of their own? that is the other fundamental flaw with socialism. it is catering to the dependant class and trying to let them take controll...but if they were ABLE to run a factory they would of already done so. its like the children runing a family. all candy no work no school. untill everybody starves to death cause no body accepts responsibility
If you could make 300 hamburgers an hour, you can sell your labor for whatever you want. If you are that good, everyone will want to hire you. Since no mcdonalds needs 300 hamburgers...
@napalmtube you can start enjoying life anytime you want to it doesnt take a "ton of money" wow you must be a sad individual with a philosophy like that
some capitalists have discovered the value of sharing some of the profits with the workers, thus there are profit sharing programs and stock option plans. If we could could a sizeable number of employee owned (worker) cooperatives that could compete with the traditional corporations, it might force corporations to act more co-op like in order to compete with coops. Such as giving a greater voice to workers (democracy, at least some democracy) and greater profit share/wages and benefits.
Spillers72 3 months ago
You know and you don't even need to read any Karl Marx books to see how shitty the living standards of most americans is. You know USA has this tricky system of paying many workers 40,000 a year. But you know something? those 40,000s belong to you for a few hours only. But they really belong to utility corporations, direct TV, insurance companies, lending companies, banks, IRS, etc. So in USA the worker who makes 40,000 makes a lot less really. What a tricky system !!
maxistsocialist 6 months ago
I am a firm supporter for this type of social market system. this way, we can remove the presence of government and capitalist greed from exploiting the worker. This is the sort of worker's democracy that they had in Yugoslavia before the went in to civil war. All economies should be based off the worker's democracy economic philosophy. This system would be the best system, better than either socialism or capitalism.
JoshyPoshy88 6 months ago
i guess we can add LIAR to your list of vices. i dont believe youve never touched drugs or alchohol. especialy since you are an athiest. not even pope john paul the 3 or mother theresa managed to go through life with out ever experimenting with drugs or alchohol. but i guess you are in denial. i also mentioned gambling but i notice you didnt catch on that. that is because your guilty conscience didnt go off. becuase your ARENT a compulsive gambler...but you ARE a drug addicted alchoholic.
markbotv3 1 year ago
LOL i hit the nail on the head with that alchoholic drug addict coment huh? otherwise you wouldnt of stopped the debate so soon. the truth will set you free the sooner you admit you have a problem with drugs and alchohol the sooner you will be back in controll of your life
markbotv3 1 year ago
@markbotv3 lol you are an idiot. i am straight edge douche bag. never touched drugs or alcohol in my life. i blocked you because you are a fucking moron, which shows when you post comments like that. now fuck off and get a life, possibly learn something, though i doubt you are capable.
eboyd32 1 year ago
So what you think about Marx's centralization of the means of production,isn't that oppose to anarchism?
evanescent25 1 year ago
No, they are not the same! Socialism is government redistribution of wealth. Communism is pure fantasy that never existed or will exist in reality.
ssmusic214 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@ssmusic214 and YOU are an idiot.
eboyd32 1 year ago
onother problem with socialism is the guy who works in a sewer gets paid the same as the guy who gets blowjobs all day for a living. under capitalism the sewer worker would be compensated well for working is such a (pardon the pun) shitty job. and the guy who gets blowjobs all day wouldnt get paid for receiving them he would have to pay for them.
markbotv3 1 year ago
@markbotv3 Well, both capitalism and communism have failed our economies. The companies of the word are not democratically run and the results of the medieval hierarchical framework of these companies is easy to see in the news today. People are out of work and the planet is being polluted to feed greedy executives. A socialistic framework for a company doesn't necessarily mean the conditions you describe, though. People get paid for the work they do.
CanadianoftheCoast 1 year ago
@CanadianoftheCoast people are out of work because their is too much regulation on free enterprise. that and TOO many people are wage earners instead of business owners. whether that business be a small farm or a trade skill. not enuff people own their own business. and when you are dependant on others. when the economy takes a hit. so do you. but when you rely on yourself you always have work. which is why capitalism always succeeds in the end and socialism fails before 75 year aniversary
markbotv3 1 year ago
@markbotv3 That is one opinion, but I disagree. People are out of work because there has been way too much spending on credit in the past few years. That spending is driving budgets into the ground. More people and businesses go bankrupt and the system collapses. Sadly, the capitalistic culture isbuilt on the lending/borrowing system but that system is failing. Thus we have our current economic problems.
cont..
CanadianoftheCoast 1 year ago
@CanadianoftheCoast ROFL omfg...do you HONESTLY think bp CHOSE to do deep water drilling in the gulf? cmon dude REALLY?!?!?!? if so then you just outed your self in public as a fucking retard. NO!!!!! BP did NOT choose to drill in deep water. the govt TOLD them to drill there. that is to say it was regulation that caused the oil spill NOT capitalism. if left alone they would of drilled in shallow water more profit. less danger. un restricted capitalism is the only way out of this mess.
markbotv3 1 year ago
@markbotv3 If corporations were given more "freedoms" like what you say, there would be more oils spills like in the gulf and toxic waste spills like in Eastern Europe. Then there would be no more natural resources to sustain us.
The only way to counter this is to put the workers in charge of the companies. This is why the U.N. announced that 2012 will be the year of the cooperative.
Capitalism unrestrained is a failed concept just like communism.
CanadianoftheCoast 1 year ago
@CanadianoftheCoast and the spill in eastern europe was STATE RUN. so again you cant blame capitalism on that. seeing how it was your precious govt that was in charge of that cluster fuck. why do you morons love the govt so much? do you like getting fucked in the ass? the govt cant do anything right. everything it touches turns to shit. trust in the PEOPLE we are the only ones who know what the fuck is going on. not the govt.
markbotv3 1 year ago
@markbotv3 Well, being that you've taken what could have been a mature intelligent conversation and drug it through the mud with childish insults, I'm calling this conversation over. However, I am correct in what I say and am not alone in this opinion: Capitalism and communism have both failed the people they were meant to serve.
Socialism (if you know the term, you know it means putting power into the hands of the people you say we should trust) is our best bet for a better life.
CanadianoftheCoast 1 year ago
@CanadianoftheCoast socialism is when the govt controlls 60% or more of the economy. has nothing to do with the people. because power is in the hands of an elite few. middle aged europe was a socialist society for the most part. do you want to be a serf?
markbotv3 1 year ago
@markbotv3 That's communism. Educate yourself. This conversation is over.
CanadianoftheCoast 1 year ago
@CanadianoftheCoast communism and socialism are the same thing. their has never been a communist nation on this earth ever. they were all socialist.
markbotv3 1 year ago
@markbotv3 no, that is neither socialism nor communism. you both need to educate yourself. socialism = workers' control over the means of production. communism = socialism + distribution according to need.
eboyd32 1 year ago
@eboyd32 lol the workers being in controll of production?!?!?!? ROFL ya that would work...NOT!!! i can see it now the workers would punch in and then everyone would stand around with their thumbs up their asses not doing a damn thing. that is the fundamental flaw of socialism. it DEMANDS that every body be a perfect angel and do what they are supposed to do...but then it also insists that angels dont exist. so how can it possibly work? that is why it never has worked and it NEVER WILL give up
markbotv3 1 year ago
@markbotv3 hey jackass, why don't you actually study and learn the truth about coops and workers' control:
"Co-operatives provide over 100 million jobs around the world, 20% more than multinational enterprises."
w w w (dot) ica (dot) coop
“In no instance of which we have evidence has a major effort to increase employee participation resulted in a long-term decline in productivity.”
“There is apparently consistent support for the view that worker participation in management...
eboyd32 1 year ago
@eboyd32 ya right. they get paid the same whether or not they work hard or hardly work. i dont believe your assertion.
markbotv3 1 year ago
@markbotv3 that may be the case on occasion, but the same is the case for large corporations who pay their workers by the hour. you ever walk into a store with a sales floor, like a corporate auto parts store? i used to work at one when i was 18 so i know that whether we played pranks all day or actually worked we still got paid the same for it. that doesn't change just because you have vertical management...
eboyd32 1 year ago
...in fact many would argue that it is actually the coop business that incentivizes workers to get things done because each member has to play a management role to an extent as well as the role of an employee. and also, in many coops, where management is needed, the role of manager is rotated throughout the workforce.
eboyd32 1 year ago
@eboyd32 that is a scary thought. i know people who cant even manage their own lives. now you are saying they will be "rotated in" to manage mine? FUCK THAT!!! let them learn how to controll their own impulses before you randomly and arbitrarilly put them in charge of other people. how much fucking damage can a drug addicted alcoholic gambler do to a company before a responsible manager gets rotated in? in my experience workers are ALWAYS alchoholics or drug addicts...
markbotv3 1 year ago
@markbotv3 "in my experience workers are ALWAYS alchoholics or drug addicts..."
you're a fucking idiot. i'm done with you and you are blocked.
eboyd32 1 year ago
@eboyd32 which is ussually the reason they are workers and not managers in a normal company. capitalism is a meritocracy. that means good behavior is rewarded and rewarded richly. and bad behavior is punished and punished severely. and dont start whining about bail outs. cause bail outs arent capitalism that is corperate welfare and safety nets are the calling cards of socialism. sink or swim on your own merit. stop expecting people to come save your ass when Y0U fuck up
markbotv3 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
..causes higher productivity."
trustcurrency (dot) blogspot (dot) com (slash) 2009 (slash) 12 (slash) worker-cooperative-productivity (dot) html
watch?v=oyxW4xDq_eE
watch?v=NORmQ8zaL1c
if you do even minute research you will find that you are absolutely fucking wrong. not only do coops exist and work perfectly today, they employ more people around the world and are more efficient than vertically integrated corporations.
eboyd32 1 year ago
Thumbs up for hot tits
epsilon8998 1 year ago
Co-operatives can work within a capitalistic society, but any society based upon capitalism must change to a more co-operative society in order to survive. The current state of the world is a testament to this fact. It has, historically and within our current economic framework, been considered that success = more money. This, lately, has been proven to be false.
I believe success only occurs when everyone gets a lifestyle they want.
Good video. Keep it up.
CanadianoftheCoast 1 year ago
@CanadianoftheCoast you cant get the lifestyle you want under socialism
markbotv3 1 year ago
if this system of worker co operative was so good,why isn't there any of them in fortune 500 Cos.
It is just a pipe dream.They can never compete in quality or efficiency in which a modern corporate company provides.
ashikapk 2 years ago
@ashikapk in cooperatives the wealth is shared. fourtune 500 companies don't want to share the wealth. they wnat it all to themselves. obviously. lol.
softwaterseven 1 year ago
Of course shareholders must have the first right to the profits.
Shareholders are the owners of the company and why should they share it with workers.
Nobody is stopping anyone from starting a co operative.
Just like communism failed miserably workers co operative is also doomed.
If u seriuosly think it can suceed,why dont you start one and see the results.
ashikapk 1 year ago
@ashikapk Worker cooperatives have been around for many years the IWW has been around for more than 100 years and most of the cooperative that were established during the depression are still here and Best western which is a retailers cooperative has been around since 1946. Credit unions operate under a cooperative system as well. in a cooperative the people who actively participate are the shareholders. Why should I work if I'm not going to get a good deal for my labor?
Garhunt05 1 year ago
@softwaterseven a worker cooperative could range from a small local coffee shop to a fortune 500 company
candywrapp 1 year ago
@softwaterseven fortune five hundred companys share the wealth with the STOCKHOLDERS who helped make the company
markbotv3 1 year ago
Even though you are completly dependent on society to maintain your way of life. I can tell you buy into a fony individualism. You would'nt be enjoying things like the ability to buy food at a grocery store, electricity, or housing if it wasnt for other people ( the farmers, the construction workers, the laborers). We are all dependent on one another in some way shape or form and until we start recognizing this we have no hope.
napalmtube 3 years ago
Thats called market socialism. Definately not the worst idea I have ever heard. It would not be a bad system. I believe in active-use property rights, which would yield workers co-operatives also.
AnarchyIsForMe 3 years ago 4
Its not market socialism, in market socialism you get back exactly what you put in. So there is no wage or salary system.
patient0Studios 3 years ago
@patient0Studios ...uh guys...check your history. Coop is American as apple pie. At the beginning of the ind rev....trade unions...and such..de facto coops themselves...viewed "wages" as tanamount to slavery. Coop was the way to go until the advent of the corporation..and havent they just fucked that up all to hell.
davehutchinson67 1 year ago
@patient0Studios Marxism included a transition period in which we go from a state in which there is a "dictatorship of the proletariat" which is the only difference between Marxism and anarchism. as for syndicalism, that was a movement that involved revolution through radical unionism. that is absent from Marxist theory.
eboyd32 1 year ago
@patient0Studios and what if you put NOTHING in? like a grandma or something. are they gonna get paid still? cause if they are then the workers are having to work harder for the dependant classes. which will be less motivation for them. untill they decide to quit altogether and join the dependant class that gets paid for doing absolutely nothing. and his neighbor sees him getting paid for nothing so he does the same thing. and so on and so on
markbotv3 1 year ago
@AnarchyIsForMe and what is wrong with the workers STOP being depandant whiney little bitches all their lives and grow a pair and start a factory of their own? that is the other fundamental flaw with socialism. it is catering to the dependant class and trying to let them take controll...but if they were ABLE to run a factory they would of already done so. its like the children runing a family. all candy no work no school. untill everybody starves to death cause no body accepts responsibility
markbotv3 1 year ago
If you could make 300 hamburgers an hour, you can sell your labor for whatever you want. If you are that good, everyone will want to hire you. Since no mcdonalds needs 300 hamburgers...
AndyMH182 3 years ago
so kid....i made a ton of money in 15 years,,,,now i'm not working and enjoying life....cant do that under your system....but good luck to you.
elbrookman 3 years ago
yea and the problem is that you have to obtain a ton of money to start enjoying life.
napalmtube 3 years ago 3
@napalmtube you can start enjoying life anytime you want to it doesnt take a "ton of money" wow you must be a sad individual with a philosophy like that
markbotv3 1 year ago