LOL! I read the title and immediately thought... Is Sarah Palin even smart enough to discuss that topic? Then I clicked on it and found out it's a cartoon; just like her! LOL!
@RBNightlinger She obviously knows more about the topic than you do, I doubt you know anything about Christianity or that you're even a believer. Even if you are, most know very little about the C/A debate and actually think Calvinism is an orthodox belief system rather than a perverted heresy with a false gospel and counterfeit god. So which are you, a militant blowhard atheist, an uneducated ignoramus, or all the above?
@RBNightlinger Wrong, your fruit exposed you. Your original comment gave you away as either an arrogant Calvinist or a militant atheist, and the former is far worse than the last. It's better to have never known the truth than to turn back to darkness (2Pet2:20-22). Calvinism is a doctrine of demons with a gospel cursed by Gal1:7-9 (Repent, for Christ MIGHT have died for you) and blasphemes God by claiming He creates helpless people for the sole purpose of casting them into hell. A vile heresy
@JoanDArc77 You call humility arrogance and believe that what you perceive as error in doctrine to be worse than denying the existence of God. Wow. I pray one day the Holy Spirit reveals to you the true state of your soul.
@RBNightlinger Was this a demonstration of your humility?:
"Is Sarah Palin even smart enough to discuss that topic? Then I clicked on it and found out it's a cartoon; just like her! LOL!"
1st, I suggest you get the forest out of your eyes before lecturing anyone about humility. 2nd, Calvinism isn't just an "error in doctrine", but promotes a totally different god. Jesus said in Jn17:3 "This is eternal life, knowing You, the only true God..." By His definition, you aren't saved.
It's funny that she says that God supplies the faith to believe. That is what Calvinists teach, of course this is only given to the elect. If God provides faith to believe to all men and women, why do some not believe????? Or do you believe that God does not give the same amount of faith to all people?
@soluscristus1 No, God convicts ALL men of sin and their need for a Savior and also provides the faith for them to believe, but they must choose to turn from their sins to be saved. People refuse because they'd rather have the fleeting pleasures of sin than the eternal things of God. God doesn't force or deny salvation to ANYONE as Calvin's unbilblical doctrines claim. They can choose to die rather than obey God, which has been the case ever since the garden of Eden.
@JoanDArc77 It seems like a contradiction to say that God gives faith to people and then they don't believe. I thought faith and believing were the same. If someone has faith in God won't they always choose Him? Are you talking about two different kinds of faith?
@soluscristus1 There's no contradiction. Salvation is a gift which must be received by faith but man is born in such a separated state from God because of inheriting Adam's fallen nature that God must supply it; that doesn't mean they're obligated or forced by God to receive it. One example is the 1st generation of Israelites who had no faith when God sent Moses to deliver them, their faith was built in the process of being delivered, but then they chose not to receive it and rejected God.
@JoanDArc77 I guess I don't understand how your last statement proves that there is no contradiction. I think your trying to say that God gives all people a faith or (knowledge) that He exists but no more. Is that correct? He obviously doesn't give everybody a saving faith or everybody would be a Christian.
@soluscristus1 From the example of the Israelites, how could you possibly conclude that God only gave them a "knowledge that He exists" but didn't grant them saving faith? Do you imagine He sent Moses to them with a promise of deliverance and to bring them into the Promised Land but didn't give them the faith to actually enter in? The only contradictions are between your doctrinal presuppositions and God's word. God doesn't force salvation on anyone just as He didn't force them into the Land
God does not FORCE salvation on anyone, He GIVES salvation to everyone. "Behold the Lamb of God who TAKES AWAY the sin of the WORLD!" John 1:29 Salvation is a the gift of deliverance from sin. All mankind will one day be sin free.
@UniversalismProven Nonsense. The only difference between Universalism and Calvinism is the U's claim God forces EVERYONE to be saved rather than just a chosen few. It's still a condemned gospel which fundamentally denies man's obligation to repent, claiming that eventually everyone will do so as it becomes increasingly clear that the alternative leads to destruction. On that basis, everyone swimming around Noah's ark was saved, but the bible says otherwise. It's a gospel of false assurance.
@UniversalismProven More nonsense. Salvation is a GIFT granted to those who repent when God convicts them of their sin, but if they wait until the consequences of sin are unleashed it will be too late; they'll only be swept away along with their sins. But you got one thing right: Universalism is related to science fiction, it's an esoteric delusion which has NOTHING to do with the bible or reality.
@Astrobrant2 How can you people claim to know something doesn't exist when the evidence is all around you from the miscroscope to the telescope? Atheists make themselves blind to avoid reality.
@JoanDArc77 Even if God did exist, (and no, there is absolutely NO evidence), what makes you think you or Calvin or anybody can tell us anything about his attributes or the interpretation of "TULIP"? Where do I buy such a microscope or telescope?
BTW, when did Sarah Palin say any of this stuff about Calvinism?
@Astrobrant2 Answered by the bible: it's a digest of supernatural events corroborated by history and archaelogy and futher validated by 100's of past and ongoing prophetic events foretold sometimes centuries in advance. 2nd, God's nature, His will, and His purposes are totally revealed within it and clearly expose heresies such as Calvinism's TULIP as counterfeits. 3rd, science itself has proven God's existence: it's statistically impossible for what we see to have occurred by time and chance.
@Astrobrant2 It's proven simply by statistics. For life to occur or for evolution to be true, it would take billions of random beneficial genetic mutations to take place among 1000's of variables involving proteins, amino acids, etc arranged in a specific way in a specific sequence: it's impossible even if the billions of years is granted to those who promote it. Since design is the only alternative, the statistics support a Designer simply by inverting the mathematical impossibility of chance.
@JoanDArc77 It is NOT proven by statistics or anything else.
Do you just not understand natural selection or do you simply avoid mentioning it since it is the explanation for what you consider MUST be the consequence of design?
@Astrobrant2 1st, to repeatedly chant that statistics don't prove anything when they actually DO invalidate your beliefs won't change the truth, and also demonstrates they're irrational. 2nd, natural selection doesn't help your cause but instead further undermines it, such as in the case of complicated, integrated systems requiring numerous parts which ALL must function correctly or NONE of it works. Natural selection won't allow non-functioning segments to ever develop into working systems.
@JoanDArc77 Clearly you don't understand the science and you have bought into some "answersingenesis" propaganda because it supports your beliefs that you were indoctrinated with since before you could think for yourself.
You stick to your magic and bronze age superstitions and I'll stick with science.
@Astrobrant2 LOL, you've said NOTHING substantive here, you have a faith-based belief! The truth is, there's no evidence evolution is taking place now, none in the fossil record it ever took place in the past, and it's statistically impossible according to the scientific knowledge we now have. Darwin even denies his theory from the grave citing both the lack of fossil evidence, which he expected to be found, and that if irreducible complexity could be shown it also disproves it. Case closed.
@chrisalpizar Rom9 is about God's sovereign dealings with nations, not individual salvation. God selected Israel (Jacob) over the Gentiles (Esau) to be the nations to be a light to the world and to bring forth the Messiah. Paul repeatedly states that salvation is open to whosoever wills from BOTH groups who respond to God in repentance and faith. Calvinists typically cite instances of God's sovereign acts and then try to apply them to the area of salvation which is by invitation, NOT by decree
@JoanDArc77 Wow. Romans 9 is crystal clear in its application to individual salvation. Paul calls people either vessels of wrath or mercy, and then identifies the individual believers as vessels of mercy. He uses Jacob vs Esau to teach that salvation is completely apart from works. Salvation has to be decreed (unless you're an open theist), but the invitation of the gospel is "whosoever will" (in other words, only God knows who the elect are; we preach to everyone).
@mkraeftig7 Rom9 is indeed crystal clear. God sovereignly called a people to Himself to be a light to the world and to be the nation to bring forth the Messiah then calls all people to follow that light. Paul repeatedly states that people from BOTH groups, Jew or Gentile, are saved by faith ALONE. It's NOT by decree eg, Rom11:32 "God has consigned all men to disobedience only that He may have mercy on them all alike" or Rom5:18 thru Adam all are condemned and thru Christ all are justifiied.
@JoanDArc77 Sorry, Paul says God made some vessels *prepared* for destruction and others *prepared beforehand* for glory. And he is clearly responding to individual objections to God's sovereign will. I'm not sure what you mean by emphasizing faith alone, as if I don't believe that. Predestined faith does not mean salvation is not by faith alone, because we're not saved until we have faith. Yet we cannot have faith apart from the grace of God.
@mkraeftig7 Sorry, but they're prepared for destruction by their refusal to obey God's message of grace and repentance, Paul is citing the rebellion of the 1st generation of Israelites. Like all Calvinists, you're biblically illiterate and don't know the entire chapter of Rom9 is a direct reference back to OT events. 2nd, it's indeed the grace of God that leads to repentance and faith, but that doesn't negate the fact that men can reject it and choose to die in their sins, as the Israelites did
@JoanDArc77 "they're prepared for destruction by their refusal to obey God's message of grace and repentance"
Dead wrong. Verse 11 says "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad" in direct application to individual salvation. Refusal to obey would be something bad. God elects BEFORE that choice.
@mkraeftig7 No, verse 11 is NOT about salvation. The phrase "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad" is referring to God's selection of Israel (Jacob) over Esau (Gentiles) as a chosen NATION which is the precise subject of Rom9; Paul is lamenting that Israel had now been rejected as a nation by their own rejection of the Messiah. Salvation has always been and always will be open to anyone from EITHER group by repentance and faith, just as Paul repeatedly says.
@JoanDArc77 I think you have tradition blinders on. I think it is quite clear that YES it refers to Jacob and Esau in historical context BY WAY OF COMPARISON TO HOW WE ARE REDEEMED (both Jews and Gentiles). Paul is teaching that salvation is God's sovereign choice, and he's saying, look, this is just how he chose Israel. Yes, the invitation is open, but only God knows the elect, we don't.
@JoanDArc77 "Like all Calvinists, you're biblically illiterate and don't know the entire chapter of Rom9 is a direct reference back to OT events."
No need to get snarky and generalize an entire group of people. This whole time I've been showing how Paul is using the OT events to picture what is happening in individual salvation. THAT is the whole point of Romans 9.
Ultimately how Gods Sovereign Will works with mans will is a mystery. I would even say God is so Sovereign he doesn't need to either force us to will or just make us will on our own, yet his words still come to pass, its beyond comprehension
@Joshster777 There's no mystery, the bible reveals it all to us. Our fellowship with God is broken by inheriting Adam's sin nature, Christ died for the sins of all mankind, God offers restoration to all those who choose to receive it, and desires that none of them perish but that all should come to repentance. Where each person spends eternity depends on their decision to accept Christ or to continue in sin and broken fellowhship. Calvinism instead claims Christ died only for some, not all.
Christ commanded Lazarus to come forth from the Grave but he also gave him the ability to do so,Lazarus could not obey unless The one who calls him out gives him the ability to respond.every sinner is dead and have no desire for the light But in Regeneration (an act of God only) God changes the disposition of the sinner's heart its that is the essence of regeneration where MERCY is applied to a guilty sinner.
@lincoln924 Lazarus is a false comparision, his raising is irrelevant to soteriology. It only signifies and represents the ressurection of the dead, not salvation. Everyone will be sovereignly ressurected but whether they take part in the 1st or 2nd one is determined by their response to God's call to repent and accept Christ or not. Again, no one is spiritually regenerated unless they choose to repent when God convicts them of their sin. And He neither forces or prevents anyone from doing so.
Think about this ,can a dead man bring himself to life? the answer is obvious neither can a spiritually dead person give them self life?God must regenerate the heart before a person exercise is free will to make the right decision ,its the miracle of the New Birth.everyone who is regenerated by the Spirit .comes to Christ.
@lincoln924 An unbiblical comparison. Spiritual death is defined as separation from God, not the loss of volition or will. The prodigal's father said, "This my son, who was dead, is alive again." Although he was dead, he chose to return to his father for restoration and new life. Calvinism has the order of salvation and the new birth backwards, only those who choose to repent are given to Christ to be regenerated by the Spirit. Calvinism distorts every single bible doctrine to fit its heresy.
lincoln924: can a dead man bring himself to life?
JoanDArc77: an unbiblical comparison
Eph. 2:4-6
"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were *dead* in our trespasses, *made* us alive together with Christ—by *grace* you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus"
@JoanDArc77 "only those who choose to repent are given to Christ to be regenerated by the Spirit."
Wow, so it's works (repent) + regeneration? No, the Bible makes clear that our faith/repentance is a gift (Eph. 2:8-9, Philip. 1:29, 2:12-13, etc.). Salvation is God's work from beginning to end, as Romans 8:28-30 makes crystal clear. Man cannot have ANY part to do with his salvation, or else he has room to boast (e.g. he was wiser than others by choosing to repent).
@mkraeftig7 Nonsense. Repentance isn't "working for your salvation", it's a response to the conviction of sin by the Holy Spirit which involves choosing to turn from one's own ways back to God. Those who do so by faith are given mercy and grace, including regeneration, to continue on that path. Salvation is indeed all from God and without His intervention no one can be saved, but it's synergistic from start to finish ie, God REQUIRES man's cooperation. He doesn't force salvation on anyone.
@JoanDArc77 A common misrepresentation of the doctrines of grace. We do not say God "forces" salvation on anyone, but rather CHANGES their heart so that they WILL choose Him. You seem to think that everything EXCEPT repentance is part of regeneration. But a man dead in sin will not repent until his heart of stone is replaced with a heart of flesh. Synergism is NOT "God alone" by definition. Again, a dead man has no part in being raised to life.
@mkraeftig7 1st, the word "force" doesn't misrepresent Calvinism, it's exactly what the "Irresistible" pillar means! Calvinist's shell game of saying God forces a change of heart so a person then "freely" chooses to repent is nothing but a con game. The result is the same ie, God irresistibly forces some to be saved (by whatever method) and denies it to others who He created only for destruction. It's YOU misrepresenting the so-called doctrines of "grace" which are just doctrines of damnation.
So you change your own heart? Or do you just "help" God change your heart? Sorry, but if I have a part in my salvation, I'm damned for sure. Praise God that His grace is sovereign!
"...just doctrines of damnation."
The amazing thing is that he shows mercy to anyone. Grace cannot be demanded.
With God's help, yes. And found in DOZENS of verses eg Joel2:13 "Rend your hearts not your garments and return to the Lord for He is merciful....and He revokes His sentence of evil". Synergism is also attested to in verses such as Rom8:13 "If you live according to the dictates of the flesh, you will surely die. But IF through the power of the Spirit YOU put to death the evil deeds of the flesh, THEN you shall genuinely live forever" Case closed
You just skip over "through the power of the Spirit" (ESV, "by the Spirit") and lock in on the "you." OF COURSE "you" are putting sin to death, but it is not by YOUR power (ANY of it) but by the SPIRIT's power. I just find it amazing that you declare "case closed" for synergism after quoting a verse that clearly teaches the monergism. The surrounding context is all about the Spirit's work in our lives.
@mkraeftig7 More ludicrous nonsense. I skipped over NOTHING but just like you did with Rom9, YOU skipped over the very subject of Rom8:13 which is an admonition to believers that THEY must choose to cooperate with the Holy Spirit in putting to death the deeds of the flesh. What's amazing is the willful blindness that grips Calvinists because of their poisonous doctrines.. You've been directly confronted and refuted, yet continue chanting Calvinist doctrines hoping the verses will just go away.
@JoanDArc77 It’s very telling that you blocked my other account without warning to avoid a rebuttal to your response from appearing (thankfully I have this backup account, which I’m sure you’re going to immediately block). Very dishonest on your part. If you don’t want others challenging your unbiblical position, best not enable comments or at least not without approval. Btw, if you delete this comment to keep people from knowing what you did, be honest and delete all our others.
@mkraeftig7 2nd, spiritual death isn't the same as physical death. The prodigal's father said, "This my son, who was dead, is alive again" Spiritual death is defined as separation from God, not the loss of volition or will. Though he was dead, the prodigal CHOSE to return to his father for new life. 3rd, although man's obedience is required in the salvation process, it's still ALL of God. Man can't save himself, there's no glory in simply receiving a free gift he can't earn or merit on his own.
@mkraeftig7 All fallacious, ignorant arguments. Man's will is indeed in bondage to sin but God leaves NO ONE in that helpless condition as Calvinism blasphemously claims. He intervenes by convicting ALL of them of sin and calling them to repentance, those who choose to obey Him are then given to Christ for regeneration. The prodigal illustrates this perfectly, he was lost until he CHOSE to return to his father. And there's NO glory in a drowning man simply choosing to grab a lifeline. Ridiculous
@JoanDArc77 We must not be reading the same Bible here. When God makes someone alive (Eph 2:5), that means they ARE saved. No one is made alive by God and then dies in their sins by rejecting the gospel.
"he was lost until he CHOSE"
And we are also saved when we choose Christ. You believe that power comes at least partly from within. I believe it comes all from God. BIG difference.
@mkraeftig7 You're going in circles and rejecting the scriptures that directly contradict your unbiblical abominations eg, such as the prodigal son who was dead, yet CHOSE to return to his father for new life. Being separated from God and dead in sin doesn't negate man's will. The problem is you're reading your false doctrines INTO the bible. Salvation is ENTIRELY God's work but it's a GIFT which man must choose to receive, God doesn't violate the free that He sovereignly chose to give mankind.
@JoanDArc77 I'm rejecting nothing but your false doctrine. When did I run away from the parable of the prodigal son? I already freely said that OF COURSE we choose, but the difference between you and me is that you attribute that choice to man's willpower, whereas I attribute it to God's sovereign, transforming grace that would make a spiritually dead man alive and choose to bow the knee to Jesus as Lord and trust him as Savior.
@mkraeftig77 You're a liar who's been unable to respond to the verses I cited except by chanting Calvinist doctrines hoping they'll go away and can't even simply admit your own doctrines say God FORCES salvation on some and denies it to others! You hide your abominations behind a false veneer of orthodoxy and misrepresent me as attributing salvation to man's willpower which is also a lie. Salvation is ALL from God but it's not by decree, instead it's a GIFT which man is free to refuse or accept
@mkraeftig77 Your proclamation that Rom8:13 supports monergism exposed your complete lack of honesty. The subject is a believer's responsibility to cooperate with the Holy Spirit, which is found throughout Paul's writings, all of which directly refutes Calvinism's "God does it all" nonsense, which isn't found ANYWHERE in the bible. You're been proven to be ignorant, arrogant, totally dishonest in the discussion, AND you've been totally refuted. No one has a cure for willful blindness. Begone!
@roboparks There are some minor differences between Calvin's writings and the various branches of modern day Calvinism but they all agree that salvation is limited and/or predetermined by God's decree, which is a false gospel, contradicts God's word, and blasphemes His character.
@mkwheeland87 It's indisputable that Calvinism uses fallacious arguments to change dozens of verses which use inclusive words about salvation such as "all, every, the world, us, everyone, whosoever, we, everybody, our, etc" limiting them to mean "a few" or "some" They even have the audacity to change the meaning in the SAME verse such as Rom5:18 "As one man's sin led to condemnation for ALL men, one Man's act of righteousness leads to justification for ALL men" Changing the 2nd "all" to "some"
@JoanDArc77 In order to say the second "all" in Romans 5:18 refers to every single person is if you are a universalist and believe every single person on earth goes to heaven, even apart from faith. The first "all" does in fact refer to every single person on the earth as sinful due to Adam's actions.
Every biblical interpreter, not just Calvinists understand this second "all" because the Bible teaches elsewhere FAITH is required for salvation yet faith is not required for Adam's condemnation.
@mkwheeland87 The inclusive nature of the second "all" in Rom5:18 has nothing to do with Universalism because as you pointed out, faith is required ie, the justification God has provided thru Christ is conditional; it's based on repentance and faith. No one has a choice about being born naturally but they do have a choice about being born again. The contoversy orthodox Christians have with Calvinism is its claim that God irresistibly forces salvation on a seelct few and denies it to others.
@JoanDArc77 Awesome arguement you have made & I thank you for taking time to share what you know. I use to attend a church that taught Calvinism but what it did for me was make me a pharisee. Infact, a sect of pharisees made life increasily difficult for the Pastor who taught us this doctrine. Calvinism to me inspires evil judgement of others when we are suppose to live & preach grace. I failed on both before & only now appreciate the power of grace for all.
@PHILLYCORRUPTCOPLEON Thanks for your testimony which is unfortunately rather rare; it's very difficult for someone to recover after they're seduced by Calvinism's fallacious arguments and scripture manipulations. It's a strong delusion that appeals to the worst in man's fallen nature.. As you point out, it's the fruit it produces in its adherents which is the main indiication there's something terribly wrong with the system.
@JoanDArc77 To call it a matter of "orthodoxy" for Calvinism is unfair. What church council ever deemed Calvinism heresy? None. On the contrary, at the Synod of Dort the Church supported Calvinism over Arminianism--yet I, as a Calvinist, do not consider Arminianism to be heresy. That would be unfair according to the standards of Apostle's Creed and Nicaean Creed.
You say "Deny it to others": that is a separate doctrine of "reprobation" not "irresistible grace." Irresistible grace is . . (cont)
@mkwheeland87 1st, what the Synod of Dort said is as irrelevant as anything the apostate Catholic church did in God's name; the only thing that matters is what agrees with God's word and Calvinism doesn't. 2nd, Arminians acknowledge that man is born separated from God and will not and cannot restore the relationship without God's intervention by convicting him of sin and calling him to repentance. The issue is Calvinism's false claim He irresistibly forces some and refuses to draw the rest.
@JoanDArc77 (part 2) a beautiful doctrine that teaches: since our free will is bent towards evil only ("those in the flesh cannot please God" Romans 8:8 and "only did evil continually" Gen 6:1-2) God's Spirit overcomes our stubbornness and gives us new life.
Reprobation is the doctrine (in addition to election, held by SOME Calvinists, not necessary with TULIP) that God turns away some for salvation. (cont)
@JoanDArc77 (part 2) a beautiful doctrine that teaches: since our free will is bent towards evil only ("those in the flesh cannot please God" Romans 8:8 and "only did evil continually" Gen 6:1-2) God's Spirit overcomes our stubbornness and gives us new life.
Reprobation is the doctrine (in addition to election, held by SOME Calvinists, not necessary with TULIP) that God turns away some for salvation. (cont)
Election (in Calv) assumes that all turned away to the point of no return in Adam. Thus rebirth and irresistable grace is necessary. . . it is not a denial of people who would freely choose God because in total depravity, no one can choose God--their wills are too corrupt (Romans 8, Genesis 6)
@JoanDArc77 What then is the correct understanding of (besides the two verses on man's inability to do good that I gave you earlier) Romans 9:13-18?
I would also suggest that we as humans violate people's free will all the time. I as a teacher, "force" homework on my students frequently. Or as parents, we force discipline on a child (when they don't desire it) . . .
@mkwheeland87 1st, God convicts the entire world of its sin (Jn16:8) and no one can escape it but He doesn't force them to repent. Man can choose to die rather than obey God and it has been that way ever since the garden of Eden. And using your own analogy: Do you, as Calvinism asserts, give your children commands they can't obey, even withhold the ability for them to respond, and then punish them when they refuse? 2nd, Rom9 is about God's sovereign dealings with NATIONS, not personal salvation.
@JoanDArc77 (cont.) . . . .and we as Christians pray for people's will to be changed in prayer when we say "God save that person" we don't pray "God I pray that person would freely choose with without your intervention at all" (for that would be not a pray at all)
If you don't want to answer these for whatever reason, I would at least like a response to the Romans 9.
@mkwheeland87 1st, prayer is indeed asking for God's intervention and God will always respond by convicting that person of their sin and need for a Savior, but He won't force them into a relationship with Himself that they don't want. 2nd, if you want more details about accurately interpreting Rom9, see the 2nd interview Larry King had with Sarah: "Sarah Palin on Calvinism, Predestination, and Rom9" She does a better job than I can in these short paragraphs.
is it just me, or is Sarah Palin trying to seduce us? Just saying. That's the main thing I get from this video. Stop trying to seduce us, Joan! you sillly haha
@cats9900 You were already totally seduced by Satan before you ever arrived here trying to pretend you're a Christian, but you were only fooling yourself. It's impossible for demoniacs to hide their putrid fruit, it always exposes them as imposters.
@cats9900 You came here with a chip on your shoulder ranting how you detest Arminianism & Sarah Palin, using terms like "idiotic, crap, dog vomit", etc, didn't have a cogent answer to any of the verses in the video nor those I presented ie, you ignored Rom8:13 and my response to Rom9, mischaracterized 1Jn2:2 and Jn1:29 as promoting Universalism, which they don't, and then proceeded to falsely accuse me of twisting what you said, being unloving, and "lashing out" at you. Go look up "projection"
@cats9900 1st, the issues involved in the C/A debate are salvational. Calvinism has a false gospel (Repent, for Christ MIGHT have died for you) which is condemned with an eternal curse in Gal1:7-9, and a god who creates helpless people for the sole purpose of casting them into hell. That's not the God of the bible who loves all men, sent Christ to redeem all of them, and desires that all of them come to repentance. As you've shown here, there can be no genuine fellowship betweeen the two camps.
(cont) Christ says in Jn17:3 "This is eternal life: to know You, the only true and real God, and to know Him, Jesus the Messiah, Whom You have sent" By this definition, those who follow the Calvinist's unbiblical god and antiChrist shepherd aren't saved. 2nd, Calvinists twist the bible into an unrecognizable pretzel and the resulting heresy separates them from other Christians. There can be no real unity if it's not based on God's word, the issues can't simply be ignored. 3rd, I'm a Mennonite.
@cats9900 1st,nothing in Jn3:16 says God loved the whole world but only chose SOME to save from it Instead, verses like Jn1:29 (the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the WORLD) and 1Jn2:2 (He's the propitiation for our sins and not for ours alone but the sins of the whole WORLD) indicate Christ died for ALL men. 2nd, if you read Rom8 you missed vs13 which clearly says redemption requires man's cooperation with God. 3rd, Rom9 concerns God's sovereign dealings with nations, NOT salvation.
Let me first say I am not one of those Christians who believe I have cornered the absolute truth on a 500 year old argument argued by smarter, wiser and more spiritually mature men than I, but what is done with verses like Ephesians 1:4. To choose some, do not some have to be left out? Or are we to proof text Romans 5:18's "all" and ignore Romans 5:19's "many"? You could even go so far as to say that Romans 5:18 means all men are currently saved. Just a few thoughts.
Calvinism/Doctrines of Grace/Reformed Theology are from the pit of Hell.....they are heresies that make God Almighty a sinner and not just a sinner but the Author of ALL sin.
Every child raped....every women beaten...every person murdered...every deceitful business deal...every cruelty man has done, was authored by God. It is a blasphemous false religion and many otherwise fine Bible teachers are promoting it today. MacArthur, Sproul, Piper, are some of them. Flee and Repent of Calvinism!!
LOL. Ignorance of scripture is the only excuse for Arminianism. Twisting the meaning of words is an Arminian trick, not a reformed one. Ignoring hundreds of scriptures, and denying biblical examples is the norm for them. Where was the free will of Pharoah? Ballam? The 400 prophets of Ahab? Saul? And those are just a few examples. John 6 and Romans 9 have to be thrown out for Arminianism to be true, along with over 150 other scriptures. Calvin may not have had it all right, but he used scripture
@klmartin "Calvin may not have had it all right but he used scripture"
He was ALL wrong and he manipulated dozens of verses which use inclusive words about salvation such as "all, every, whosoever, everyone, the world, us, our, everybody, we, etc" with fallacious arguments to make them mean "an elect few". He also denied many others which directly refute his false interpretations such as Rom5:18, Rom11:32, Acts17:29-30, Mt22:8-9. Salvation is a gift to ALL, not by decree
@JoanDArc77 Then how do you explain the hundreds of scriptures that say you are wrong? I know, you don't. There are explanations for every verse that you claim to be in opposition to Calvin, but Arminians, like Charismatics, just skip over them as if they don't exist. Either Jesus and Paul both lied, or Arminians are wrong. Jesus said NO ONE could come to Him unless the Father draws him. Paul said that natural man could not even understand the things of God. Whosoever never means any
@klmartin1962 1st, NO verses contradict my beliefs, if there were I wouldn't be posting anything on a public forum. 2nd, you're ignorant of the issues between the camps, there's no dispute that man cannot and will not come to God on his own. God must supply a way back thru Christ and intervenes by convicting him of sin and calling him to repentace. The issue is Calvinism's heretical claim that God irresistibly forces some to accept the call and withholds the ability of others to respond to it.
@JoanDArc77 Then I apologize for putting words in your mouth. I have debated this issue many, many, times and you are the first to take that stance. Most have a real problem accepting the depth of man's fall. To me, your argument can be made using scripture on the others. I think it is out of context, but I won't argue with anyone using the bible as their source, whether I agree with their interpretation or not. Many Blessings. Leon
@klmartin1962 If you examine all the prooftexts Calvin used such as Jn15:16, 2Th2:13, Phil1:6, Jn6:44, Acts13:48 etc, you'll see he adds divine force and subtracts man's free will from them. Verses like Rom5:18,11:32, and Lk7:30 put them in context, as all men are born condemned in Adam they're also all accepted in Christ, BUT they must choose to receive Him. God calls, convicts, elects, draws, etc but man can choose to reject it all and die in sin. God doesn't force or deny salvation to any.
@JoanDArc77 Joan you are absolutely correct but this is the typical stance from a Calvinist. You will always be told that you don't understand are ignorant. The god of Calvin is an evil man made god. Keep fighting the good fight. Contend for the faith!
@jcgordon65 The "you just don't understand Calvinism" argument is just a ploy and the truth is that most Calvinists don't really understand it nor do they know what Arminians believe and constantly misrepresent them. Arminians acknowldege that man cannot and will not come to God on his own; that God must provide a way back thru Christ, intervenes by convicting them of sin, and calls them to repentance. The controversy is their claim that He forces some and prevents others from responding.
@jwoodell3 Arminians use the bible as their authority to refute Calvinism, Sarah Palin is just one of them. Its heretical abominations have been refuted for centuries, ever since Arminius first posted his biblical answer to it. Nothing has changed since then, blind fools still fall into it because of their own bible ignorance, Christians still refute it with God's word, and people who listen to them are restored while those who don't drift into deeper apostasy and are destroyed by it.
Larry:"Do you find it deceiving to ask yourself questions so you can answer them and feel smart?"
Me:" Am I human? Yes.
Do I make mistakes? Sometimes.
Am I right about this? Probably.
Should people use me as a source of reliable information? Yup.
Is this medium really going to make a difference? For sure.
Does a bear sh*t in the woods? I have no idea. I've never been to the woods. I've seen biased youtube cartoon debates on calvinism however...so...I'm pretty much super-informed.
This feels like an unfair, strawman representation of Calvinism. I think that intellectual and theological honesty would warrant a closer examination of what you have already written off as unbiblical.
@adamkinunen Calvinists always object when the fake veneer of orthodoxy is stripped away and their unbiblical abominations are exposed. Nothing presented in the video or the discussion misrepresents Calvinist beliefs. They promote a false, limited gospel (Repent, for Christ MIGHT have died for you) and claim God creates helpless people for the sole purpose of casting them into hell. Nobody really cares if they worship an evil sadist, the controversy is their claim it's the God of the bible.
@JoanDArc77 How many times will you make the same error accusing calvinists of claiming a unjust God? It is your inability to see your own sinfulness that you continue to slander the reformed faith. Man is responsible for sin in the world, and all men are guily of sin. Why can you not understand this? It is your own obstinance that prevents you, else you wouldn't continue to make the same error. All men justly deserve hell because of their sin, and God chooses to save some for His glory.
It is sad you would openly admit God is not sovereign yet accuse me of doing so. I'm the one sitting here saying he is perfect and complete and never "a man, that he should lie".
Matthew 11:20-22 Then He began to denounce the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent. 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 Nevertheless I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you.
It is obvious that calvinism is wrong. In the Old Testament, Israel was told to offer a FREE WILL OFFERING. which makes this pretty clear, man was created with free will.
@truthful2298 You don't understand Calvinism. Calvinism does not teach the absence of mans free will or even that man has little free will. Man's will is completely free to do as he pleases! The problem is that the man who is not made alive in Christ only wants sin and nothing but sin. His will is in bondage.
God does NOT give us faith......He requires faith from us ....we need to believe!! Dont be ashamed, rightly divide the Word of Truth, 2 Tim 2:15.
For by (God's) grace you have been saved through (your) faith. And this is not of your own doing (salvation is of the Lord, faith is NOT a work!!!); it (salvation) is the gift of God, not the results of works (FAITH IS NOT A WORK!!!) so that no one may boast.
The problem is you violate the rules of Biblical interpretation. Rule of unity: Your interpretation of text cannot violate the interpretation of the whole of scripture. You can't make a doctrine out of one verse.
That video says "If God knew they would sin, he wouldn't have created them". PLEASE tell me you don't believe that? You want to talk about heresy, that is false teaching at it's finest. Saying that God does not know all things. If God were to do it again (which is kind of a silly analogy but bear with it), He would do it exactly the same and make Adam and Eve the same way. He does not make mistakes. Please tell me we agree there.
@bengphoenix Exactly. I'm still appalled that any Bible believing Christian would imply that God didn't know Adam and Eve would sin. Or that God would make a different decision in the future.
@kreezy22 What's appalling is that any Christian who claims he's read the bible doesn't know it says God repented of making man because of his great wickedness and sent a flood to destroy them, or that He doesn't allow anyone to be tempted beyond their ability to resist. Calvinism instead claims God not only allowed Adam to be tempted beyond his ability, but even decreed it and wanted him to fail the test, that He desired for Adam to disobey His command and for sin and death to enter the world.
@JoanDArc77 No, what is appalling is a person who says they have read the Bible that thinks God repents like a fallacious man does. God repenting of doing something does not mean what he did was wrong or not perfect. Your implication continues to be that God made a mistake or that God would have done it differently. You are trampling the foreknowledge and supremacy of God underfoot. The Torah says God repents, but not like a man.
@JoanDArc77 We repent because we didn't know about the consequences that would come and we then see we made a bad decision. God repents because although he knew what would happen, he chose to do it anyways and would do it all again because what he did was perfect. Your implying that his repentance means he made a mistake. He repented because it still remorses him that in his perfect plan, sin had to take place.
@JoanDArc77 God repented of making man AFTER he had fallen, and you know this. God created man, and deemed His creation "very good." Are you chronologically challenged? What you fail to understand is that man's original state was different than it is today. Man was totally innocent at that point, and since the fall all creation is under the curse of sin. Only in and through Christ are you able to overcome sin; you are nothing on your own. Your doctrine glorifies yourself and dethrones Christ
@bengphoenix You're confused about my beliefs as well as what the bible says because of the false, contadictory doctrines you hold. 1st, Calvinism claims God is responsible for sin, that He purposely defiled what He originally called "good", as you say man was innocent and according to Calvinism God allowed Adam to be tempted beyond his ability to resist because He actually desired Adam to fall. 2nd, all this is inconsistent with God's later statment that He repented of making mankind.
@kreezy22 "So are you saying God didn't know if Adam would fall?"
So you're saying God created Adam knowing his decision would be to disobey a command that carried the death penalty? Do you also think God sent Moses to the 1st generation of Israelites with a promise to deliver them from bondage and bring them into the Promised Land (Ex6:6-8) while knowing they'd rebel and He'd instead destroy them? Your "concern" should be about yours, not other's beliefs! You portray God as a deceiver!
@JoanDArc77 Well my concern lies with the fact that you don't believe in an omnipotent and omniscient God! You believe in a God that lacks knowledge. You believe in a God that does not know all things. You might want to reconsider your stance on that. I have talked to many people who oppose "calvinism" but have never heard a Christian say they don't believe God has exhaustive foreknowledge.
@kreezy22 God does know all things, is all powerful, and remains sovereign. His decision to give man a genuine free will that actually belongs to him doesn't affect any of His attributes. God reveals beforehand the exact result and what the consequences will be of whatever decision man might choose to make, and he can't escape them. How did Adam's choice to disobey God's command and to die affect God in the slightest? None, it only affected Adam and confirmed exactly what God had said.
@kreezy22 I made it clear ie, God knows every possible choice we can make, tells us the consequences and gives clear guidance about the right choice, but the decision belongs to us alone and we can even choose to die rather than do what God desires. For a clarifying scripture: Deut8:2 "You shall remember all the way which the Lord your God led you these 40 years in the wilderness, to humble and to prove you, TO KNOW what was in your heart, WHETHER YOU WOULD KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS OR NOT"
@JoanDArc77 Your still not answering my question though... you say he knows every POSSIBLE choice but does he know THE choice? Does he know EXACTLY what happens? Did he know that Adam and Eve would make the worst choice before time began?
@kreezy Your question was fully answered by God Himself in Deut8:2, but here's another verse for you: Gen22:12 "And He said, Do not lay your hand on the lad or do anything to him; for NOW I KNOW that you fear and revere God, since you have not held back from Me or begrudged giving Me your son, your only son" Can you see from those 2 very simple & clear verses exactly when God knew what their free will decision would be when faced with the choice to obey Him or not?
@JoanDArc77 Your STILL not giving me a straight yes or no answer! Stop beating around the bush and just answer yes or no. I want to know if God knew, long before time and space were created, that his creation would make the terrible the decision they made, long before he even created them. Answer that question, yes or no, please. You keep beating around the bush and taking the argument different places.
@kreezy22 "Answer that question, yes or no, please. You keep beating around the bush and taking the argument different places"
I find it very revealing that when God's word clearly and directly answers your question in Deut8:2 and Gen22:12, leaving no doubt about the extent of God's foreknowledge working in conjuction with the free will He gave to mankind, that it's somehow not sufficient for you. The problem is, the words "Now I know" exposes your entire theological foundation as faulty.
@JoanDArc77 lol what are you talking about? I understand those passages. But you have implied that beecause of those verses you believe.God knows the possibilities and the conseqquences but not the outcome. You have a very manipulative argument strategy. If you notice, I never accuse you or call your character out, I simply argue. You.do not. You resort.to jabs. Very manipulative.and sly. Bottom line is it seems like you believe there.is some thing God does not know, which is heresy
Really? Then why do you seek "clarification" for phrases like "now I know" and "He proved you to see what was in your heart, whether you would obey His commandments or not" Maybe you should clarify what they mean to YOU, since I think they speak cleary for themselves and see no need to add anything to them. Exactly what are YOU adding or subtracting from them causing your accusations that I'm "manipulative,sly,heretical,jab,attack your character,etc"?
@JoanDArc77 Your very malicious and on the attack with your argument. That is why debating with you is hard. If you were intelligent enough, perhaps you would undertsand that I'm asking for your interpretation of those passages. But apparently I need to spoon feed everything I say to you so as to not confuse you. I'll try to bring things to your level from now on... But I digress...
@kreezy22 So far you've accused me of being malicous, manipulative, sly, heretical, I jab and attack your character, I'm unintelligent, I violate the rules of Biblical interpretation, I worship a false God, make doctrines out of one verse, etc, and all that for the crime of quoting 2 simple, very clear passages which just happen to destroy the foundations of your entire theology; what a coincidence. Your problem is with God's word not ME, and none of your gibberish has reconciled those verses.
@JoanDArc77 Let's just level here. Here is what we have: You have quoted to verses to me and it seems you are trying to build a doctrine on them. However, I am still unclear as to what exactly your intending to imply with your interpretations of those texts. There is no sarcasm implied here. I am honestly unclear as to the whole scope of your beliefs in this instance. It seems you believe there was an aspect of Adam and Eves decision God did not know prior to the fall?
@JoanDArc77 Here is my belief: That God knew everything about Adam and Eve and all of eternity before he created them. He knew they would fall and knew that they would not make the right, good, perfect choice and stay with him but he knew that they would rebel. Is there any part of that you find wrong? Please let me know which part specifically you might find problematic.
@JoanDArc77 Your intepretation of those passages does not fit into scripture as a whole. (Isa. 40:13-14) teach he has never and can never learn from anyone. He knows and understands all things and always has. If God could receive knowledge he had not possesed before, he is not perfect and he is not God. God says "I Am the Lord, I change not". His knowledge always and always will be FULL. God is not surprised. He does not discover things
@JoanDArc77 God does not wonder and need not SEEK information. Only when he has a purpose like drawing men from sin or doing a work in them does he "seek" information. To do a work in them, not because he needs too. If you believe he needs too, you worship a god who is not GOD.
@kreezy22 Okay, gather up all your beliefs about Predestination, Sovereignty, Free Will, and Foreknowledge and apply them to the Exodus account. God made a promise in Ex6:6-8 to the 1st generation of Israelites to deliver them from bondage and bring them into the Promised Land, instead He destroyed them in the desert after they refused to enter the Land. If He already knew they'd rebel then this wasn't a deliverance but a predetermined death sentence and the "promise" was actually just a lie.
@JoanDArc77 I see your problem in this instance. Here is how I approach that text. First of all, God didn't destroy them. That is important to note. And he did take them into the land he promised. God did what he did in this manner: to do a work in Israel, and to better glorify himself. He didn't test them this way to find something out about them, but to do a work in their hearts! This is simply a means to an end. He knew how it would play out all along.
@kreezy22 The problem isn't mine, you're evading the Old Testament account and what the New Testament says too. The promise was specifically given to THAT generation - God sent Moses to THEM saying "I am the Lord, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and free you from their bondage, and I will rescue you with an outstretched arm and by mighty acts of judgment" 1Cor10 and Heb3&4 say they forfeited salvation by their rebellion. If God knew it, He lied to them.
@JoanDArc77 Slow down. I'm trying to make our exchange as clear as possible, so stay with me here. So to answer my question, you don't agree with my view of God's knowledge of Adam and Eve? So what then do you believe about the foreknowledge of God? I am not evading the text, only trying to interpret it with all of scripture. Scripture teaches an all knowing God and I will serve no other. Is that how you feel as well?
@kreezy22 Okay, for clarity: If you promise your children to take them to a carnival and know in advance their response when you arrive and tell them to get aboard a ride will be to kick you, break away and be destroyed in the ride's moving gears, then your original offer to them was only a veiled death sentence, a total lie. It's the same scenario as your view of Adam and Eve's fall, which btw, also contradicts 1Cor13:10, that God allows no one to be tempted beyond their ability to resist.
@JoanDArc77 Jacobus Arminius wrote, “[God] has known from eternity which person should believe…and which should persevere through subsequent grace” (Carl Bangs, Arminius, Abingdon Press, 1971, pp. 219, 352). Even Arminianism teaches that God knows. Understand you are standing relatively alone in your belief about God's foreknowledge.
@kreezy22 "Do you have an outside source that can help me?"
All I can give you are more bible verses but it's been my experience that if someone rejects one portion of God's word pertaining to an issue, they'll reject them all. Your only response to the 2 I've cited is to attempt trumping them away with your own opinions and either irrelevant or manipulated prooftexts which don't begin to reconcile your doctrinal contradictions about foreknowledge and the Exodus account or Adam's fall.
@JoanDArc77 I'm asking for an outside source that explains this take on scripture in more detail, as a youtube comment is not detailed. So calm down. I have been TRYING to clarify your views on foreknowledge, but no avail. You deny God's absolute foreknowledge yet you won't actually say "God does not have absolute foreknowledge". why is that? You will create an argument and beat around the bush but I'm waiting for your final conclusion!
@kreezy22 Now you're accusing me of being "uncalm" but I'm not under any stress whatsoever because my beliefs don't contradict any scriptures like yours do, and it's irrelevant anyway. If there was a problem with mine (which there's not) it doesn't help you resolve YOURS which have been exposed here. So my "final conclusion" is that nothing you've presented so far can be reconciled with Gen22:12, Deut8:2, God's promise in Ex6:6-8, Adam's fall, or 1Cor13:10. Case closed.
LOL! I read the title and immediately thought... Is Sarah Palin even smart enough to discuss that topic? Then I clicked on it and found out it's a cartoon; just like her! LOL!
RBNightlinger 1 week ago
@RBNightlinger She obviously knows more about the topic than you do, I doubt you know anything about Christianity or that you're even a believer. Even if you are, most know very little about the C/A debate and actually think Calvinism is an orthodox belief system rather than a perverted heresy with a false gospel and counterfeit god. So which are you, a militant blowhard atheist, an uneducated ignoramus, or all the above?
JoanDArc77 1 week ago
@JoanDArc77 You don't know me at all. But that's OK, because God does.
I'll simply quote Whitefield, who, when writing to John Wesley, said, "No, dear sir, you mistake."
Peace.
RBNightlinger 1 week ago
@RBNightlinger Wrong, your fruit exposed you. Your original comment gave you away as either an arrogant Calvinist or a militant atheist, and the former is far worse than the last. It's better to have never known the truth than to turn back to darkness (2Pet2:20-22). Calvinism is a doctrine of demons with a gospel cursed by Gal1:7-9 (Repent, for Christ MIGHT have died for you) and blasphemes God by claiming He creates helpless people for the sole purpose of casting them into hell. A vile heresy
JoanDArc77 1 week ago
@JoanDArc77 You call humility arrogance and believe that what you perceive as error in doctrine to be worse than denying the existence of God. Wow. I pray one day the Holy Spirit reveals to you the true state of your soul.
RBNightlinger 1 week ago
@RBNightlinger Was this a demonstration of your humility?:
"Is Sarah Palin even smart enough to discuss that topic? Then I clicked on it and found out it's a cartoon; just like her! LOL!"
1st, I suggest you get the forest out of your eyes before lecturing anyone about humility. 2nd, Calvinism isn't just an "error in doctrine", but promotes a totally different god. Jesus said in Jn17:3 "This is eternal life, knowing You, the only true God..." By His definition, you aren't saved.
JoanDArc77 1 week ago
It's funny that she says that God supplies the faith to believe. That is what Calvinists teach, of course this is only given to the elect. If God provides faith to believe to all men and women, why do some not believe????? Or do you believe that God does not give the same amount of faith to all people?
soluscristus1 1 week ago
@soluscristus1 No, God convicts ALL men of sin and their need for a Savior and also provides the faith for them to believe, but they must choose to turn from their sins to be saved. People refuse because they'd rather have the fleeting pleasures of sin than the eternal things of God. God doesn't force or deny salvation to ANYONE as Calvin's unbilblical doctrines claim. They can choose to die rather than obey God, which has been the case ever since the garden of Eden.
JoanDArc77 1 week ago
@JoanDArc77 It seems like a contradiction to say that God gives faith to people and then they don't believe. I thought faith and believing were the same. If someone has faith in God won't they always choose Him? Are you talking about two different kinds of faith?
soluscristus1 1 week ago
@soluscristus1 There's no contradiction. Salvation is a gift which must be received by faith but man is born in such a separated state from God because of inheriting Adam's fallen nature that God must supply it; that doesn't mean they're obligated or forced by God to receive it. One example is the 1st generation of Israelites who had no faith when God sent Moses to deliver them, their faith was built in the process of being delivered, but then they chose not to receive it and rejected God.
JoanDArc77 1 week ago
@JoanDArc77 I guess I don't understand how your last statement proves that there is no contradiction. I think your trying to say that God gives all people a faith or (knowledge) that He exists but no more. Is that correct? He obviously doesn't give everybody a saving faith or everybody would be a Christian.
soluscristus1 1 week ago
@soluscristus1 From the example of the Israelites, how could you possibly conclude that God only gave them a "knowledge that He exists" but didn't grant them saving faith? Do you imagine He sent Moses to them with a promise of deliverance and to bring them into the Promised Land but didn't give them the faith to actually enter in? The only contradictions are between your doctrinal presuppositions and God's word. God doesn't force salvation on anyone just as He didn't force them into the Land
JoanDArc77 1 week ago
@JoanDArc77
God does not FORCE salvation on anyone, He GIVES salvation to everyone. "Behold the Lamb of God who TAKES AWAY the sin of the WORLD!" John 1:29 Salvation is a the gift of deliverance from sin. All mankind will one day be sin free.
UniversalismProven 1 week ago
@UniversalismProven Nonsense. The only difference between Universalism and Calvinism is the U's claim God forces EVERYONE to be saved rather than just a chosen few. It's still a condemned gospel which fundamentally denies man's obligation to repent, claiming that eventually everyone will do so as it becomes increasingly clear that the alternative leads to destruction. On that basis, everyone swimming around Noah's ark was saved, but the bible says otherwise. It's a gospel of false assurance.
JoanDArc77 1 week ago
@JoanDArc77
Ok, God FORCES everyone to be saved. The cross and the blood FORCES sin out of humanity. May the FORCE be with you! :-)
UniversalismProven 1 week ago
@UniversalismProven More nonsense. Salvation is a GIFT granted to those who repent when God convicts them of their sin, but if they wait until the consequences of sin are unleashed it will be too late; they'll only be swept away along with their sins. But you got one thing right: Universalism is related to science fiction, it's an esoteric delusion which has NOTHING to do with the bible or reality.
JoanDArc77 6 days ago
@JoanDArc77 How can you people claim to know so much about something which doesn't exist?
Astrobrant2 5 days ago
@Astrobrant2 How can you people claim to know something doesn't exist when the evidence is all around you from the miscroscope to the telescope? Atheists make themselves blind to avoid reality.
JoanDArc77 5 days ago
@JoanDArc77 Even if God did exist, (and no, there is absolutely NO evidence), what makes you think you or Calvin or anybody can tell us anything about his attributes or the interpretation of "TULIP"? Where do I buy such a microscope or telescope?
BTW, when did Sarah Palin say any of this stuff about Calvinism?
Astrobrant2 5 days ago
@Astrobrant2 Answered by the bible: it's a digest of supernatural events corroborated by history and archaelogy and futher validated by 100's of past and ongoing prophetic events foretold sometimes centuries in advance. 2nd, God's nature, His will, and His purposes are totally revealed within it and clearly expose heresies such as Calvinism's TULIP as counterfeits. 3rd, science itself has proven God's existence: it's statistically impossible for what we see to have occurred by time and chance.
JoanDArc77 5 days ago
@JoanDArc77 Science has NOT proven God's existence. Where do you people get that garbage from?
Astrobrant2 4 days ago
@Astrobrant2 It's proven simply by statistics. For life to occur or for evolution to be true, it would take billions of random beneficial genetic mutations to take place among 1000's of variables involving proteins, amino acids, etc arranged in a specific way in a specific sequence: it's impossible even if the billions of years is granted to those who promote it. Since design is the only alternative, the statistics support a Designer simply by inverting the mathematical impossibility of chance.
JoanDArc77 4 days ago
@JoanDArc77 It is NOT proven by statistics or anything else.
Do you just not understand natural selection or do you simply avoid mentioning it since it is the explanation for what you consider MUST be the consequence of design?
Astrobrant2 4 days ago
@Astrobrant2 1st, to repeatedly chant that statistics don't prove anything when they actually DO invalidate your beliefs won't change the truth, and also demonstrates they're irrational. 2nd, natural selection doesn't help your cause but instead further undermines it, such as in the case of complicated, integrated systems requiring numerous parts which ALL must function correctly or NONE of it works. Natural selection won't allow non-functioning segments to ever develop into working systems.
JoanDArc77 4 days ago
@JoanDArc77 Clearly you don't understand the science and you have bought into some "answersingenesis" propaganda because it supports your beliefs that you were indoctrinated with since before you could think for yourself.
You stick to your magic and bronze age superstitions and I'll stick with science.
Astrobrant2 4 days ago
@Astrobrant2 LOL, you've said NOTHING substantive here, you have a faith-based belief! The truth is, there's no evidence evolution is taking place now, none in the fossil record it ever took place in the past, and it's statistically impossible according to the scientific knowledge we now have. Darwin even denies his theory from the grave citing both the lack of fossil evidence, which he expected to be found, and that if irreducible complexity could be shown it also disproves it. Case closed.
JoanDArc77 4 days ago
romans 9
chrisalpizar 2 weeks ago
@chrisalpizar Rom9 is about God's sovereign dealings with nations, not individual salvation. God selected Israel (Jacob) over the Gentiles (Esau) to be the nations to be a light to the world and to bring forth the Messiah. Paul repeatedly states that salvation is open to whosoever wills from BOTH groups who respond to God in repentance and faith. Calvinists typically cite instances of God's sovereign acts and then try to apply them to the area of salvation which is by invitation, NOT by decree
JoanDArc77 2 weeks ago
@JoanDArc77 Wow. Romans 9 is crystal clear in its application to individual salvation. Paul calls people either vessels of wrath or mercy, and then identifies the individual believers as vessels of mercy. He uses Jacob vs Esau to teach that salvation is completely apart from works. Salvation has to be decreed (unless you're an open theist), but the invitation of the gospel is "whosoever will" (in other words, only God knows who the elect are; we preach to everyone).
mkraeftig7 2 weeks ago
@mkraeftig7 Rom9 is indeed crystal clear. God sovereignly called a people to Himself to be a light to the world and to be the nation to bring forth the Messiah then calls all people to follow that light. Paul repeatedly states that people from BOTH groups, Jew or Gentile, are saved by faith ALONE. It's NOT by decree eg, Rom11:32 "God has consigned all men to disobedience only that He may have mercy on them all alike" or Rom5:18 thru Adam all are condemned and thru Christ all are justifiied.
JoanDArc77 2 weeks ago
@JoanDArc77 Sorry, Paul says God made some vessels *prepared* for destruction and others *prepared beforehand* for glory. And he is clearly responding to individual objections to God's sovereign will. I'm not sure what you mean by emphasizing faith alone, as if I don't believe that. Predestined faith does not mean salvation is not by faith alone, because we're not saved until we have faith. Yet we cannot have faith apart from the grace of God.
mkraeftig7 2 weeks ago
@mkraeftig7 Sorry, but they're prepared for destruction by their refusal to obey God's message of grace and repentance, Paul is citing the rebellion of the 1st generation of Israelites. Like all Calvinists, you're biblically illiterate and don't know the entire chapter of Rom9 is a direct reference back to OT events. 2nd, it's indeed the grace of God that leads to repentance and faith, but that doesn't negate the fact that men can reject it and choose to die in their sins, as the Israelites did
JoanDArc77 2 weeks ago
@JoanDArc77 "they're prepared for destruction by their refusal to obey God's message of grace and repentance"
Dead wrong. Verse 11 says "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad" in direct application to individual salvation. Refusal to obey would be something bad. God elects BEFORE that choice.
mkraeftig7 2 weeks ago
@mkraeftig7 No, verse 11 is NOT about salvation. The phrase "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad" is referring to God's selection of Israel (Jacob) over Esau (Gentiles) as a chosen NATION which is the precise subject of Rom9; Paul is lamenting that Israel had now been rejected as a nation by their own rejection of the Messiah. Salvation has always been and always will be open to anyone from EITHER group by repentance and faith, just as Paul repeatedly says.
JoanDArc77 2 weeks ago
@JoanDArc77 I think you have tradition blinders on. I think it is quite clear that YES it refers to Jacob and Esau in historical context BY WAY OF COMPARISON TO HOW WE ARE REDEEMED (both Jews and Gentiles). Paul is teaching that salvation is God's sovereign choice, and he's saying, look, this is just how he chose Israel. Yes, the invitation is open, but only God knows the elect, we don't.
mkraeftig7 2 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@JoanDArc77 "Like all Calvinists, you're biblically illiterate and don't know the entire chapter of Rom9 is a direct reference back to OT events."
No need to get snarky and generalize an entire group of people. This whole time I've been showing how Paul is using the OT events to picture what is happening in individual salvation. THAT is the whole point of Romans 9.
mkraeftig7 2 weeks ago
Ultimately how Gods Sovereign Will works with mans will is a mystery. I would even say God is so Sovereign he doesn't need to either force us to will or just make us will on our own, yet his words still come to pass, its beyond comprehension
Joshster777 2 weeks ago
@Joshster777 There's no mystery, the bible reveals it all to us. Our fellowship with God is broken by inheriting Adam's sin nature, Christ died for the sins of all mankind, God offers restoration to all those who choose to receive it, and desires that none of them perish but that all should come to repentance. Where each person spends eternity depends on their decision to accept Christ or to continue in sin and broken fellowhship. Calvinism instead claims Christ died only for some, not all.
JoanDArc77 2 weeks ago
Christ commanded Lazarus to come forth from the Grave but he also gave him the ability to do so,Lazarus could not obey unless The one who calls him out gives him the ability to respond.every sinner is dead and have no desire for the light But in Regeneration (an act of God only) God changes the disposition of the sinner's heart its that is the essence of regeneration where MERCY is applied to a guilty sinner.
lincoln924 3 weeks ago
@lincoln924 Lazarus is a false comparision, his raising is irrelevant to soteriology. It only signifies and represents the ressurection of the dead, not salvation. Everyone will be sovereignly ressurected but whether they take part in the 1st or 2nd one is determined by their response to God's call to repent and accept Christ or not. Again, no one is spiritually regenerated unless they choose to repent when God convicts them of their sin. And He neither forces or prevents anyone from doing so.
JoanDArc77 2 weeks ago
Think about this ,can a dead man bring himself to life? the answer is obvious neither can a spiritually dead person give them self life?God must regenerate the heart before a person exercise is free will to make the right decision ,its the miracle of the New Birth.everyone who is regenerated by the Spirit .comes to Christ.
lincoln924 3 weeks ago
@lincoln924 An unbiblical comparison. Spiritual death is defined as separation from God, not the loss of volition or will. The prodigal's father said, "This my son, who was dead, is alive again." Although he was dead, he chose to return to his father for restoration and new life. Calvinism has the order of salvation and the new birth backwards, only those who choose to repent are given to Christ to be regenerated by the Spirit. Calvinism distorts every single bible doctrine to fit its heresy.
JoanDArc77 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
lincoln924: can a dead man bring himself to life?
JoanDArc77: an unbiblical comparison
Eph. 2:4-6
"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were *dead* in our trespasses, *made* us alive together with Christ—by *grace* you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus"
Doesn't get more biblical than that! Praise God!
mkraeftig7 2 weeks ago
@JoanDArc77 "only those who choose to repent are given to Christ to be regenerated by the Spirit."
Wow, so it's works (repent) + regeneration? No, the Bible makes clear that our faith/repentance is a gift (Eph. 2:8-9, Philip. 1:29, 2:12-13, etc.). Salvation is God's work from beginning to end, as Romans 8:28-30 makes crystal clear. Man cannot have ANY part to do with his salvation, or else he has room to boast (e.g. he was wiser than others by choosing to repent).
mkraeftig7 2 weeks ago
@mkraeftig7 Nonsense. Repentance isn't "working for your salvation", it's a response to the conviction of sin by the Holy Spirit which involves choosing to turn from one's own ways back to God. Those who do so by faith are given mercy and grace, including regeneration, to continue on that path. Salvation is indeed all from God and without His intervention no one can be saved, but it's synergistic from start to finish ie, God REQUIRES man's cooperation. He doesn't force salvation on anyone.
JoanDArc77 2 weeks ago
@JoanDArc77 A common misrepresentation of the doctrines of grace. We do not say God "forces" salvation on anyone, but rather CHANGES their heart so that they WILL choose Him. You seem to think that everything EXCEPT repentance is part of regeneration. But a man dead in sin will not repent until his heart of stone is replaced with a heart of flesh. Synergism is NOT "God alone" by definition. Again, a dead man has no part in being raised to life.
mkraeftig7 2 weeks ago
@mkraeftig7 1st, the word "force" doesn't misrepresent Calvinism, it's exactly what the "Irresistible" pillar means! Calvinist's shell game of saying God forces a change of heart so a person then "freely" chooses to repent is nothing but a con game. The result is the same ie, God irresistibly forces some to be saved (by whatever method) and denies it to others who He created only for destruction. It's YOU misrepresenting the so-called doctrines of "grace" which are just doctrines of damnation.
JoanDArc77 2 weeks ago
@JoanDArc77 "...nothing but a con game"
So you change your own heart? Or do you just "help" God change your heart? Sorry, but if I have a part in my salvation, I'm damned for sure. Praise God that His grace is sovereign!
"...just doctrines of damnation."
The amazing thing is that he shows mercy to anyone. Grace cannot be demanded.
mkraeftig7 2 weeks ago
@mkraeftig7 "So you change your own heart?"
With God's help, yes. And found in DOZENS of verses eg Joel2:13 "Rend your hearts not your garments and return to the Lord for He is merciful....and He revokes His sentence of evil". Synergism is also attested to in verses such as Rom8:13 "If you live according to the dictates of the flesh, you will surely die. But IF through the power of the Spirit YOU put to death the evil deeds of the flesh, THEN you shall genuinely live forever" Case closed
JoanDArc77 2 weeks ago
@JoanDArc77 WOW WOW WOW
You just skip over "through the power of the Spirit" (ESV, "by the Spirit") and lock in on the "you." OF COURSE "you" are putting sin to death, but it is not by YOUR power (ANY of it) but by the SPIRIT's power. I just find it amazing that you declare "case closed" for synergism after quoting a verse that clearly teaches the monergism. The surrounding context is all about the Spirit's work in our lives.
mkraeftig7 2 weeks ago
@mkraeftig7 More ludicrous nonsense. I skipped over NOTHING but just like you did with Rom9, YOU skipped over the very subject of Rom8:13 which is an admonition to believers that THEY must choose to cooperate with the Holy Spirit in putting to death the deeds of the flesh. What's amazing is the willful blindness that grips Calvinists because of their poisonous doctrines.. You've been directly confronted and refuted, yet continue chanting Calvinist doctrines hoping the verses will just go away.
JoanDArc77 2 weeks ago
@JoanDArc77 It’s very telling that you blocked my other account without warning to avoid a rebuttal to your response from appearing (thankfully I have this backup account, which I’m sure you’re going to immediately block). Very dishonest on your part. If you don’t want others challenging your unbiblical position, best not enable comments or at least not without approval. Btw, if you delete this comment to keep people from knowing what you did, be honest and delete all our others.
mkraeftig77 2 weeks ago
@mkraeftig7 2nd, spiritual death isn't the same as physical death. The prodigal's father said, "This my son, who was dead, is alive again" Spiritual death is defined as separation from God, not the loss of volition or will. Though he was dead, the prodigal CHOSE to return to his father for new life. 3rd, although man's obedience is required in the salvation process, it's still ALL of God. Man can't save himself, there's no glory in simply receiving a free gift he can't earn or merit on his own.
JoanDArc77 2 weeks ago
@JoanDArc77 "Spiritual death is defined as separation from God, not the loss of volition or will"
Our will is in bondage to sin ("dead in sin") before God makes us alive to Christ.
"there's no glory in simply receiving a free gift he can't earn or merit on his own"
Yes there is, if you were "smart" enough to receive it and someone else wasn't.
If you're trying to directly parallel everything, the prodigal was "saved" before he arrived back at his home.
mkraeftig7 2 weeks ago
@mkraeftig7 All fallacious, ignorant arguments. Man's will is indeed in bondage to sin but God leaves NO ONE in that helpless condition as Calvinism blasphemously claims. He intervenes by convicting ALL of them of sin and calling them to repentance, those who choose to obey Him are then given to Christ for regeneration. The prodigal illustrates this perfectly, he was lost until he CHOSE to return to his father. And there's NO glory in a drowning man simply choosing to grab a lifeline. Ridiculous
JoanDArc77 2 weeks ago
@JoanDArc77 We must not be reading the same Bible here. When God makes someone alive (Eph 2:5), that means they ARE saved. No one is made alive by God and then dies in their sins by rejecting the gospel.
"he was lost until he CHOSE"
And we are also saved when we choose Christ. You believe that power comes at least partly from within. I believe it comes all from God. BIG difference.
mkraeftig7 2 weeks ago
@mkraeftig7 You're going in circles and rejecting the scriptures that directly contradict your unbiblical abominations eg, such as the prodigal son who was dead, yet CHOSE to return to his father for new life. Being separated from God and dead in sin doesn't negate man's will. The problem is you're reading your false doctrines INTO the bible. Salvation is ENTIRELY God's work but it's a GIFT which man must choose to receive, God doesn't violate the free that He sovereignly chose to give mankind.
JoanDArc77 2 weeks ago
@JoanDArc77 I'm rejecting nothing but your false doctrine. When did I run away from the parable of the prodigal son? I already freely said that OF COURSE we choose, but the difference between you and me is that you attribute that choice to man's willpower, whereas I attribute it to God's sovereign, transforming grace that would make a spiritually dead man alive and choose to bow the knee to Jesus as Lord and trust him as Savior.
mkraeftig77 2 weeks ago
@mkraeftig77 You're a liar who's been unable to respond to the verses I cited except by chanting Calvinist doctrines hoping they'll go away and can't even simply admit your own doctrines say God FORCES salvation on some and denies it to others! You hide your abominations behind a false veneer of orthodoxy and misrepresent me as attributing salvation to man's willpower which is also a lie. Salvation is ALL from God but it's not by decree, instead it's a GIFT which man is free to refuse or accept
JoanDArc77 2 weeks ago
@mkraeftig77 Your proclamation that Rom8:13 supports monergism exposed your complete lack of honesty. The subject is a believer's responsibility to cooperate with the Holy Spirit, which is found throughout Paul's writings, all of which directly refutes Calvinism's "God does it all" nonsense, which isn't found ANYWHERE in the bible. You're been proven to be ignorant, arrogant, totally dishonest in the discussion, AND you've been totally refuted. No one has a cure for willful blindness. Begone!
JoanDArc77 2 weeks ago
@JoanDArc77 "And there's NO glory in a drowning man simply choosing to grab a lifeline. Ridiculous"
Is it?
Interviewer: How did you not both survive when the coast guard was there to rescue you?
Saved Man: I stayed calm and had my wits about be to grip the line from the helicopter. The other guy panicked and couldn't control his grip.
But your analogy is bad because the Bible doesn't say we were "drowning in sin," but that we were DEAD in sin. Dead men can't grab ropes.
mkraeftig7 2 weeks ago
She didnt quote anything from Calvins Institutes or the papers from Ganeva from Cslvins time period.
roboparks 3 weeks ago
@roboparks There are some minor differences between Calvin's writings and the various branches of modern day Calvinism but they all agree that salvation is limited and/or predetermined by God's decree, which is a false gospel, contradicts God's word, and blasphemes His character.
JoanDArc77 3 weeks ago
Calvind Institutes talks nothing about this
roboparks 3 weeks ago
thats not true
roboparks 3 weeks ago
The discussion of arminianism was a fair one, and I speak as a Calvinist.
It started getting unsettling when the accusations of "changing verses" (or at least the meaning) began.
mkwheeland87 4 weeks ago
@mkwheeland87 It's indisputable that Calvinism uses fallacious arguments to change dozens of verses which use inclusive words about salvation such as "all, every, the world, us, everyone, whosoever, we, everybody, our, etc" limiting them to mean "a few" or "some" They even have the audacity to change the meaning in the SAME verse such as Rom5:18 "As one man's sin led to condemnation for ALL men, one Man's act of righteousness leads to justification for ALL men" Changing the 2nd "all" to "some"
JoanDArc77 4 weeks ago
@JoanDArc77 In order to say the second "all" in Romans 5:18 refers to every single person is if you are a universalist and believe every single person on earth goes to heaven, even apart from faith. The first "all" does in fact refer to every single person on the earth as sinful due to Adam's actions.
Every biblical interpreter, not just Calvinists understand this second "all" because the Bible teaches elsewhere FAITH is required for salvation yet faith is not required for Adam's condemnation.
mkwheeland87 4 weeks ago
@mkwheeland87 The inclusive nature of the second "all" in Rom5:18 has nothing to do with Universalism because as you pointed out, faith is required ie, the justification God has provided thru Christ is conditional; it's based on repentance and faith. No one has a choice about being born naturally but they do have a choice about being born again. The contoversy orthodox Christians have with Calvinism is its claim that God irresistibly forces salvation on a seelct few and denies it to others.
JoanDArc77 3 weeks ago
@JoanDArc77 Awesome arguement you have made & I thank you for taking time to share what you know. I use to attend a church that taught Calvinism but what it did for me was make me a pharisee. Infact, a sect of pharisees made life increasily difficult for the Pastor who taught us this doctrine. Calvinism to me inspires evil judgement of others when we are suppose to live & preach grace. I failed on both before & only now appreciate the power of grace for all.
PHILLYCORRUPTCOPLEON 3 weeks ago
@PHILLYCORRUPTCOPLEON Thanks for your testimony which is unfortunately rather rare; it's very difficult for someone to recover after they're seduced by Calvinism's fallacious arguments and scripture manipulations. It's a strong delusion that appeals to the worst in man's fallen nature.. As you point out, it's the fruit it produces in its adherents which is the main indiication there's something terribly wrong with the system.
JoanDArc77 3 weeks ago
@JoanDArc77 To call it a matter of "orthodoxy" for Calvinism is unfair. What church council ever deemed Calvinism heresy? None. On the contrary, at the Synod of Dort the Church supported Calvinism over Arminianism--yet I, as a Calvinist, do not consider Arminianism to be heresy. That would be unfair according to the standards of Apostle's Creed and Nicaean Creed.
You say "Deny it to others": that is a separate doctrine of "reprobation" not "irresistible grace." Irresistible grace is . . (cont)
mkwheeland87 3 weeks ago
@mkwheeland87 1st, what the Synod of Dort said is as irrelevant as anything the apostate Catholic church did in God's name; the only thing that matters is what agrees with God's word and Calvinism doesn't. 2nd, Arminians acknowledge that man is born separated from God and will not and cannot restore the relationship without God's intervention by convicting him of sin and calling him to repentance. The issue is Calvinism's false claim He irresistibly forces some and refuses to draw the rest.
JoanDArc77 3 weeks ago
@JoanDArc77 (part 2) a beautiful doctrine that teaches: since our free will is bent towards evil only ("those in the flesh cannot please God" Romans 8:8 and "only did evil continually" Gen 6:1-2) God's Spirit overcomes our stubbornness and gives us new life.
Reprobation is the doctrine (in addition to election, held by SOME Calvinists, not necessary with TULIP) that God turns away some for salvation. (cont)
mkwheeland87 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@JoanDArc77 (part 2) a beautiful doctrine that teaches: since our free will is bent towards evil only ("those in the flesh cannot please God" Romans 8:8 and "only did evil continually" Gen 6:1-2) God's Spirit overcomes our stubbornness and gives us new life.
Reprobation is the doctrine (in addition to election, held by SOME Calvinists, not necessary with TULIP) that God turns away some for salvation. (cont)
mkwheeland87 3 weeks ago
@JoanDArc77 (part 3)
Election (in Calv) assumes that all turned away to the point of no return in Adam. Thus rebirth and irresistable grace is necessary. . . it is not a denial of people who would freely choose God because in total depravity, no one can choose God--their wills are too corrupt (Romans 8, Genesis 6)
mkwheeland87 3 weeks ago
@JoanDArc77 What then is the correct understanding of (besides the two verses on man's inability to do good that I gave you earlier) Romans 9:13-18?
I would also suggest that we as humans violate people's free will all the time. I as a teacher, "force" homework on my students frequently. Or as parents, we force discipline on a child (when they don't desire it) . . .
mkwheeland87 3 weeks ago
@mkwheeland87 1st, God convicts the entire world of its sin (Jn16:8) and no one can escape it but He doesn't force them to repent. Man can choose to die rather than obey God and it has been that way ever since the garden of Eden. And using your own analogy: Do you, as Calvinism asserts, give your children commands they can't obey, even withhold the ability for them to respond, and then punish them when they refuse? 2nd, Rom9 is about God's sovereign dealings with NATIONS, not personal salvation.
JoanDArc77 3 weeks ago
@JoanDArc77 (cont.) . . . .and we as Christians pray for people's will to be changed in prayer when we say "God save that person" we don't pray "God I pray that person would freely choose with without your intervention at all" (for that would be not a pray at all)
If you don't want to answer these for whatever reason, I would at least like a response to the Romans 9.
mkwheeland87 3 weeks ago
@mkwheeland87 1st, prayer is indeed asking for God's intervention and God will always respond by convicting that person of their sin and need for a Savior, but He won't force them into a relationship with Himself that they don't want. 2nd, if you want more details about accurately interpreting Rom9, see the 2nd interview Larry King had with Sarah: "Sarah Palin on Calvinism, Predestination, and Rom9" She does a better job than I can in these short paragraphs.
JoanDArc77 3 weeks ago
is it just me, or is Sarah Palin trying to seduce us? Just saying. That's the main thing I get from this video. Stop trying to seduce us, Joan! you sillly haha
cats9900 1 month ago
@cats9900 You were already totally seduced by Satan before you ever arrived here trying to pretend you're a Christian, but you were only fooling yourself. It's impossible for demoniacs to hide their putrid fruit, it always exposes them as imposters.
JoanDArc77 1 month ago
@cats9900 You came here with a chip on your shoulder ranting how you detest Arminianism & Sarah Palin, using terms like "idiotic, crap, dog vomit", etc, didn't have a cogent answer to any of the verses in the video nor those I presented ie, you ignored Rom8:13 and my response to Rom9, mischaracterized 1Jn2:2 and Jn1:29 as promoting Universalism, which they don't, and then proceeded to falsely accuse me of twisting what you said, being unloving, and "lashing out" at you. Go look up "projection"
JoanDArc77 1 month ago
Comment removed
cats9900 1 month ago
@cats9900 1st, the issues involved in the C/A debate are salvational. Calvinism has a false gospel (Repent, for Christ MIGHT have died for you) which is condemned with an eternal curse in Gal1:7-9, and a god who creates helpless people for the sole purpose of casting them into hell. That's not the God of the bible who loves all men, sent Christ to redeem all of them, and desires that all of them come to repentance. As you've shown here, there can be no genuine fellowship betweeen the two camps.
JoanDArc77 1 month ago
Comment removed
cats9900 1 month ago
(cont) Christ says in Jn17:3 "This is eternal life: to know You, the only true and real God, and to know Him, Jesus the Messiah, Whom You have sent" By this definition, those who follow the Calvinist's unbiblical god and antiChrist shepherd aren't saved. 2nd, Calvinists twist the bible into an unrecognizable pretzel and the resulting heresy separates them from other Christians. There can be no real unity if it's not based on God's word, the issues can't simply be ignored. 3rd, I'm a Mennonite.
JoanDArc77 1 month ago
Comment removed
cats9900 1 month ago
Comment removed
cats9900 1 month ago
@cats9900 1st,nothing in Jn3:16 says God loved the whole world but only chose SOME to save from it Instead, verses like Jn1:29 (the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the WORLD) and 1Jn2:2 (He's the propitiation for our sins and not for ours alone but the sins of the whole WORLD) indicate Christ died for ALL men. 2nd, if you read Rom8 you missed vs13 which clearly says redemption requires man's cooperation with God. 3rd, Rom9 concerns God's sovereign dealings with nations, NOT salvation.
JoanDArc77 1 month ago
Let me first say I am not one of those Christians who believe I have cornered the absolute truth on a 500 year old argument argued by smarter, wiser and more spiritually mature men than I, but what is done with verses like Ephesians 1:4. To choose some, do not some have to be left out? Or are we to proof text Romans 5:18's "all" and ignore Romans 5:19's "many"? You could even go so far as to say that Romans 5:18 means all men are currently saved. Just a few thoughts.
fulgentblade 1 month ago
Comment removed
cats9900 1 month ago
Comment removed
cats9900 1 month ago
@cats9900 So exactly which verses of scripture Sarah used to refudiate Calvinism did you dislike so much?
JoanDArc77 1 month ago
Comment removed
cats9900 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Calvinism/Doctrines of Grace/Reformed Theology are from the pit of Hell.....they are heresies that make God Almighty a sinner and not just a sinner but the Author of ALL sin.
Every child raped....every women beaten...every person murdered...every deceitful business deal...every cruelty man has done, was authored by God. It is a blasphemous false religion and many otherwise fine Bible teachers are promoting it today. MacArthur, Sproul, Piper, are some of them. Flee and Repent of Calvinism!!
willpower242 1 month ago
LOL. Ignorance of scripture is the only excuse for Arminianism. Twisting the meaning of words is an Arminian trick, not a reformed one. Ignoring hundreds of scriptures, and denying biblical examples is the norm for them. Where was the free will of Pharoah? Ballam? The 400 prophets of Ahab? Saul? And those are just a few examples. John 6 and Romans 9 have to be thrown out for Arminianism to be true, along with over 150 other scriptures. Calvin may not have had it all right, but he used scripture
klmartin1962 1 month ago
@klmartin "Calvin may not have had it all right but he used scripture"
He was ALL wrong and he manipulated dozens of verses which use inclusive words about salvation such as "all, every, whosoever, everyone, the world, us, our, everybody, we, etc" with fallacious arguments to make them mean "an elect few". He also denied many others which directly refute his false interpretations such as Rom5:18, Rom11:32, Acts17:29-30, Mt22:8-9. Salvation is a gift to ALL, not by decree
nor denied to any
JoanDArc77 1 month ago
@JoanDArc77 Then how do you explain the hundreds of scriptures that say you are wrong? I know, you don't. There are explanations for every verse that you claim to be in opposition to Calvin, but Arminians, like Charismatics, just skip over them as if they don't exist. Either Jesus and Paul both lied, or Arminians are wrong. Jesus said NO ONE could come to Him unless the Father draws him. Paul said that natural man could not even understand the things of God. Whosoever never means any
klmartin1962 1 month ago
@klmartin1962 1st, NO verses contradict my beliefs, if there were I wouldn't be posting anything on a public forum. 2nd, you're ignorant of the issues between the camps, there's no dispute that man cannot and will not come to God on his own. God must supply a way back thru Christ and intervenes by convicting him of sin and calling him to repentace. The issue is Calvinism's heretical claim that God irresistibly forces some to accept the call and withholds the ability of others to respond to it.
JoanDArc77 1 month ago
@JoanDArc77 Then I apologize for putting words in your mouth. I have debated this issue many, many, times and you are the first to take that stance. Most have a real problem accepting the depth of man's fall. To me, your argument can be made using scripture on the others. I think it is out of context, but I won't argue with anyone using the bible as their source, whether I agree with their interpretation or not. Many Blessings. Leon
klmartin1962 1 month ago
@klmartin1962 If you examine all the prooftexts Calvin used such as Jn15:16, 2Th2:13, Phil1:6, Jn6:44, Acts13:48 etc, you'll see he adds divine force and subtracts man's free will from them. Verses like Rom5:18,11:32, and Lk7:30 put them in context, as all men are born condemned in Adam they're also all accepted in Christ, BUT they must choose to receive Him. God calls, convicts, elects, draws, etc but man can choose to reject it all and die in sin. God doesn't force or deny salvation to any.
JoanDArc77 1 month ago
@JoanDArc77 Joan you are absolutely correct but this is the typical stance from a Calvinist. You will always be told that you don't understand are ignorant. The god of Calvin is an evil man made god. Keep fighting the good fight. Contend for the faith!
jcgordon65 1 month ago
@jcgordon65 The "you just don't understand Calvinism" argument is just a ploy and the truth is that most Calvinists don't really understand it nor do they know what Arminians believe and constantly misrepresent them. Arminians acknowldege that man cannot and will not come to God on his own; that God must provide a way back thru Christ, intervenes by convicting them of sin, and calls them to repentance. The controversy is their claim that He forces some and prevents others from responding.
JoanDArc77 1 month ago
Arminians using Sarah Palin as an authority. I've seen it all!!
jwoodell3 1 month ago
@jwoodell3 Arminians use the bible as their authority to refute Calvinism, Sarah Palin is just one of them. Its heretical abominations have been refuted for centuries, ever since Arminius first posted his biblical answer to it. Nothing has changed since then, blind fools still fall into it because of their own bible ignorance, Christians still refute it with God's word, and people who listen to them are restored while those who don't drift into deeper apostasy and are destroyed by it.
JoanDArc77 1 month ago
Haha, this is awesome!
Xallia621 1 month ago
Larry:"Do you find it deceiving to ask yourself questions so you can answer them and feel smart?"
Me:" Am I human? Yes.
Do I make mistakes? Sometimes.
Am I right about this? Probably.
Should people use me as a source of reliable information? Yup.
Is this medium really going to make a difference? For sure.
Does a bear sh*t in the woods? I have no idea. I've never been to the woods. I've seen biased youtube cartoon debates on calvinism however...so...I'm pretty much super-informed.
Godmadeearth 1 month ago
@Godmadeearth
Should people have a relevant point before posting?
Probably.
What if they don't?
They might get eaten by bears.
JoanDArc77 1 month ago
This feels like an unfair, strawman representation of Calvinism. I think that intellectual and theological honesty would warrant a closer examination of what you have already written off as unbiblical.
adamkinunen 1 month ago
@adamkinunen Calvinists always object when the fake veneer of orthodoxy is stripped away and their unbiblical abominations are exposed. Nothing presented in the video or the discussion misrepresents Calvinist beliefs. They promote a false, limited gospel (Repent, for Christ MIGHT have died for you) and claim God creates helpless people for the sole purpose of casting them into hell. Nobody really cares if they worship an evil sadist, the controversy is their claim it's the God of the bible.
JoanDArc77 1 month ago
@JoanDArc77 How many times will you make the same error accusing calvinists of claiming a unjust God? It is your inability to see your own sinfulness that you continue to slander the reformed faith. Man is responsible for sin in the world, and all men are guily of sin. Why can you not understand this? It is your own obstinance that prevents you, else you wouldn't continue to make the same error. All men justly deserve hell because of their sin, and God chooses to save some for His glory.
bengphoenix 1 month ago
It is sad you would openly admit God is not sovereign yet accuse me of doing so. I'm the one sitting here saying he is perfect and complete and never "a man, that he should lie".
kreezy22 1 month ago
Matthew 11:20-22 Then He began to denounce the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent. 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 Nevertheless I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you.
Feraeond 1 month ago
It is obvious that calvinism is wrong. In the Old Testament, Israel was told to offer a FREE WILL OFFERING. which makes this pretty clear, man was created with free will.
truthful2298 1 month ago
@truthful2298 You don't understand Calvinism. Calvinism does not teach the absence of mans free will or even that man has little free will. Man's will is completely free to do as he pleases! The problem is that the man who is not made alive in Christ only wants sin and nothing but sin. His will is in bondage.
kreezy22 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
God does NOT give us faith......He requires faith from us ....we need to believe!! Dont be ashamed, rightly divide the Word of Truth, 2 Tim 2:15.
For by (God's) grace you have been saved through (your) faith. And this is not of your own doing (salvation is of the Lord, faith is NOT a work!!!); it (salvation) is the gift of God, not the results of works (FAITH IS NOT A WORK!!!) so that no one may boast.
willpower242 1 month ago
The problem is you violate the rules of Biblical interpretation. Rule of unity: Your interpretation of text cannot violate the interpretation of the whole of scripture. You can't make a doctrine out of one verse.
kreezy22 1 month ago
Some more things to consider..........youtube.com/watch?v=R1ckoCBtXvU&list=FLHZJM5Cm5afmRIN3BEqe5Mg&index=2&feature=plpp_video
"Calvinist witnessing" vid.
willpower242 2 months ago
Thanks for posting this Joan.......
willpower242 2 months ago
That video says "If God knew they would sin, he wouldn't have created them". PLEASE tell me you don't believe that? You want to talk about heresy, that is false teaching at it's finest. Saying that God does not know all things. If God were to do it again (which is kind of a silly analogy but bear with it), He would do it exactly the same and make Adam and Eve the same way. He does not make mistakes. Please tell me we agree there.
kreezy22 2 months ago
@kreezy22 That's true, after six days God looked at His creation, and it was "very good."
bengphoenix 2 months ago
@bengphoenix Exactly. I'm still appalled that any Bible believing Christian would imply that God didn't know Adam and Eve would sin. Or that God would make a different decision in the future.
kreezy22 2 months ago
@kreezy22 What's appalling is that any Christian who claims he's read the bible doesn't know it says God repented of making man because of his great wickedness and sent a flood to destroy them, or that He doesn't allow anyone to be tempted beyond their ability to resist. Calvinism instead claims God not only allowed Adam to be tempted beyond his ability, but even decreed it and wanted him to fail the test, that He desired for Adam to disobey His command and for sin and death to enter the world.
JoanDArc77 2 months ago
@JoanDArc77
Good answer!!
willpower242 2 months ago
@JoanDArc77 No, what is appalling is a person who says they have read the Bible that thinks God repents like a fallacious man does. God repenting of doing something does not mean what he did was wrong or not perfect. Your implication continues to be that God made a mistake or that God would have done it differently. You are trampling the foreknowledge and supremacy of God underfoot. The Torah says God repents, but not like a man.
kreezy22 2 months ago
@JoanDArc77 We repent because we didn't know about the consequences that would come and we then see we made a bad decision. God repents because although he knew what would happen, he chose to do it anyways and would do it all again because what he did was perfect. Your implying that his repentance means he made a mistake. He repented because it still remorses him that in his perfect plan, sin had to take place.
kreezy22 2 months ago
@JoanDArc77 God repented of making man AFTER he had fallen, and you know this. God created man, and deemed His creation "very good." Are you chronologically challenged? What you fail to understand is that man's original state was different than it is today. Man was totally innocent at that point, and since the fall all creation is under the curse of sin. Only in and through Christ are you able to overcome sin; you are nothing on your own. Your doctrine glorifies yourself and dethrones Christ
bengphoenix 2 months ago
@bengphoenix You're confused about my beliefs as well as what the bible says because of the false, contadictory doctrines you hold. 1st, Calvinism claims God is responsible for sin, that He purposely defiled what He originally called "good", as you say man was innocent and according to Calvinism God allowed Adam to be tempted beyond his ability to resist because He actually desired Adam to fall. 2nd, all this is inconsistent with God's later statment that He repented of making mankind.
JoanDArc77 1 month ago
@JoanDArc77 So are you saying God didn't know if Adam would fall? Are you saying God wouldn't make man if he did it over again?
kreezy22 1 month ago
@kreezy22 "So are you saying God didn't know if Adam would fall?"
So you're saying God created Adam knowing his decision would be to disobey a command that carried the death penalty? Do you also think God sent Moses to the 1st generation of Israelites with a promise to deliver them from bondage and bring them into the Promised Land (Ex6:6-8) while knowing they'd rebel and He'd instead destroy them? Your "concern" should be about yours, not other's beliefs! You portray God as a deceiver!
JoanDArc77 1 month ago
@JoanDArc77 Well my concern lies with the fact that you don't believe in an omnipotent and omniscient God! You believe in a God that lacks knowledge. You believe in a God that does not know all things. You might want to reconsider your stance on that. I have talked to many people who oppose "calvinism" but have never heard a Christian say they don't believe God has exhaustive foreknowledge.
kreezy22 1 month ago
@kreezy22 God does know all things, is all powerful, and remains sovereign. His decision to give man a genuine free will that actually belongs to him doesn't affect any of His attributes. God reveals beforehand the exact result and what the consequences will be of whatever decision man might choose to make, and he can't escape them. How did Adam's choice to disobey God's command and to die affect God in the slightest? None, it only affected Adam and confirmed exactly what God had said.
JoanDArc77 1 month ago
@JoanDArc77 I agree with you. But your not being clear... did he or did not know they would fall before he created them?
kreezy22 1 month ago
@kreezy22 I made it clear ie, God knows every possible choice we can make, tells us the consequences and gives clear guidance about the right choice, but the decision belongs to us alone and we can even choose to die rather than do what God desires. For a clarifying scripture: Deut8:2 "You shall remember all the way which the Lord your God led you these 40 years in the wilderness, to humble and to prove you, TO KNOW what was in your heart, WHETHER YOU WOULD KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS OR NOT"
JoanDArc77 1 month ago
@JoanDArc77 Your still not answering my question though... you say he knows every POSSIBLE choice but does he know THE choice? Does he know EXACTLY what happens? Did he know that Adam and Eve would make the worst choice before time began?
kreezy22 1 month ago
@kreezy Your question was fully answered by God Himself in Deut8:2, but here's another verse for you: Gen22:12 "And He said, Do not lay your hand on the lad or do anything to him; for NOW I KNOW that you fear and revere God, since you have not held back from Me or begrudged giving Me your son, your only son" Can you see from those 2 very simple & clear verses exactly when God knew what their free will decision would be when faced with the choice to obey Him or not?
JoanDArc77 1 month ago
@JoanDArc77 Your STILL not giving me a straight yes or no answer! Stop beating around the bush and just answer yes or no. I want to know if God knew, long before time and space were created, that his creation would make the terrible the decision they made, long before he even created them. Answer that question, yes or no, please. You keep beating around the bush and taking the argument different places.
kreezy22 1 month ago
@kreezy22 "Answer that question, yes or no, please. You keep beating around the bush and taking the argument different places"
I find it very revealing that when God's word clearly and directly answers your question in Deut8:2 and Gen22:12, leaving no doubt about the extent of God's foreknowledge working in conjuction with the free will He gave to mankind, that it's somehow not sufficient for you. The problem is, the words "Now I know" exposes your entire theological foundation as faulty.
JoanDArc77 1 month ago
@JoanDArc77 lol what are you talking about? I understand those passages. But you have implied that beecause of those verses you believe.God knows the possibilities and the conseqquences but not the outcome. You have a very manipulative argument strategy. If you notice, I never accuse you or call your character out, I simply argue. You.do not. You resort.to jabs. Very manipulative.and sly. Bottom line is it seems like you believe there.is some thing God does not know, which is heresy
kreezy22 1 month ago
@kreezy22 "I understand those passages"
Really? Then why do you seek "clarification" for phrases like "now I know" and "He proved you to see what was in your heart, whether you would obey His commandments or not" Maybe you should clarify what they mean to YOU, since I think they speak cleary for themselves and see no need to add anything to them. Exactly what are YOU adding or subtracting from them causing your accusations that I'm "manipulative,sly,heretical,jab,attack your character,etc"?
JoanDArc77 1 month ago
@JoanDArc77 Your very malicious and on the attack with your argument. That is why debating with you is hard. If you were intelligent enough, perhaps you would undertsand that I'm asking for your interpretation of those passages. But apparently I need to spoon feed everything I say to you so as to not confuse you. I'll try to bring things to your level from now on... But I digress...
kreezy22 1 month ago
@kreezy22 So far you've accused me of being malicous, manipulative, sly, heretical, I jab and attack your character, I'm unintelligent, I violate the rules of Biblical interpretation, I worship a false God, make doctrines out of one verse, etc, and all that for the crime of quoting 2 simple, very clear passages which just happen to destroy the foundations of your entire theology; what a coincidence. Your problem is with God's word not ME, and none of your gibberish has reconciled those verses.
JoanDArc77 1 month ago
@JoanDArc77 Let's just level here. Here is what we have: You have quoted to verses to me and it seems you are trying to build a doctrine on them. However, I am still unclear as to what exactly your intending to imply with your interpretations of those texts. There is no sarcasm implied here. I am honestly unclear as to the whole scope of your beliefs in this instance. It seems you believe there was an aspect of Adam and Eves decision God did not know prior to the fall?
kreezy22 1 month ago
@JoanDArc77 Here is my belief: That God knew everything about Adam and Eve and all of eternity before he created them. He knew they would fall and knew that they would not make the right, good, perfect choice and stay with him but he knew that they would rebel. Is there any part of that you find wrong? Please let me know which part specifically you might find problematic.
kreezy22 1 month ago
@JoanDArc77 Your intepretation of those passages does not fit into scripture as a whole. (Isa. 40:13-14) teach he has never and can never learn from anyone. He knows and understands all things and always has. If God could receive knowledge he had not possesed before, he is not perfect and he is not God. God says "I Am the Lord, I change not". His knowledge always and always will be FULL. God is not surprised. He does not discover things
kreezy22 1 month ago
@JoanDArc77 God does not wonder and need not SEEK information. Only when he has a purpose like drawing men from sin or doing a work in them does he "seek" information. To do a work in them, not because he needs too. If you believe he needs too, you worship a god who is not GOD.
kreezy22 1 month ago
@kreezy22 Okay, gather up all your beliefs about Predestination, Sovereignty, Free Will, and Foreknowledge and apply them to the Exodus account. God made a promise in Ex6:6-8 to the 1st generation of Israelites to deliver them from bondage and bring them into the Promised Land, instead He destroyed them in the desert after they refused to enter the Land. If He already knew they'd rebel then this wasn't a deliverance but a predetermined death sentence and the "promise" was actually just a lie.
JoanDArc77 1 month ago
@JoanDArc77 I see your problem in this instance. Here is how I approach that text. First of all, God didn't destroy them. That is important to note. And he did take them into the land he promised. God did what he did in this manner: to do a work in Israel, and to better glorify himself. He didn't test them this way to find something out about them, but to do a work in their hearts! This is simply a means to an end. He knew how it would play out all along.
kreezy22 1 month ago
@kreezy22 The problem isn't mine, you're evading the Old Testament account and what the New Testament says too. The promise was specifically given to THAT generation - God sent Moses to THEM saying "I am the Lord, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and free you from their bondage, and I will rescue you with an outstretched arm and by mighty acts of judgment" 1Cor10 and Heb3&4 say they forfeited salvation by their rebellion. If God knew it, He lied to them.
JoanDArc77 1 month ago
@JoanDArc77 Slow down. I'm trying to make our exchange as clear as possible, so stay with me here. So to answer my question, you don't agree with my view of God's knowledge of Adam and Eve? So what then do you believe about the foreknowledge of God? I am not evading the text, only trying to interpret it with all of scripture. Scripture teaches an all knowing God and I will serve no other. Is that how you feel as well?
kreezy22 1 month ago
@kreezy22 Okay, for clarity: If you promise your children to take them to a carnival and know in advance their response when you arrive and tell them to get aboard a ride will be to kick you, break away and be destroyed in the ride's moving gears, then your original offer to them was only a veiled death sentence, a total lie. It's the same scenario as your view of Adam and Eve's fall, which btw, also contradicts 1Cor13:10, that God allows no one to be tempted beyond their ability to resist.
JoanDArc77 1 month ago
@JoanDArc77 I'm still having a hard time quite grasping your argument. Do you have an outside source that can help me?
kreezy22 1 month ago
@JoanDArc77 Jacobus Arminius wrote, “[God] has known from eternity which person should believe…and which should persevere through subsequent grace” (Carl Bangs, Arminius, Abingdon Press, 1971, pp. 219, 352). Even Arminianism teaches that God knows. Understand you are standing relatively alone in your belief about God's foreknowledge.
kreezy22 1 month ago
@kreezy22 "Do you have an outside source that can help me?"
All I can give you are more bible verses but it's been my experience that if someone rejects one portion of God's word pertaining to an issue, they'll reject them all. Your only response to the 2 I've cited is to attempt trumping them away with your own opinions and either irrelevant or manipulated prooftexts which don't begin to reconcile your doctrinal contradictions about foreknowledge and the Exodus account or Adam's fall.
JoanDArc77 1 month ago
@JoanDArc77 I'm asking for an outside source that explains this take on scripture in more detail, as a youtube comment is not detailed. So calm down. I have been TRYING to clarify your views on foreknowledge, but no avail. You deny God's absolute foreknowledge yet you won't actually say "God does not have absolute foreknowledge". why is that? You will create an argument and beat around the bush but I'm waiting for your final conclusion!
kreezy22 1 month ago
@kreezy22 Now you're accusing me of being "uncalm" but I'm not under any stress whatsoever because my beliefs don't contradict any scriptures like yours do, and it's irrelevant anyway. If there was a problem with mine (which there's not) it doesn't help you resolve YOURS which have been exposed here. So my "final conclusion" is that nothing you've presented so far can be reconciled with Gen22:12, Deut8:2, God's promise in Ex6:6-8, Adam's fall, or 1Cor13:10. Case closed.
JoanDArc77 1 month ago