@MomoTheBellyDancer "how is Einstein's incomprehensible universe made comprehensible if mindless matter &energy is all there is?" What a terribly stupid thing to ask.
I guess Einstein must have been stupid to suggest "the only thing INcomprehensible about the universe is that it is COMPREHENSIBLE." If the universe is just mindless physical matter & energy, there is no logical necessity for it to be rationally intelligible or obey immaterial laws. Get it? No? Too much information, perhaps?
"- A bit late on this, but do you realise that none of these points follow logically from the major premise of "theism is true" I'm not sure which one of my post u refers to but if u attack my argument saying its logically unsound without saying how, that is just an unsubstantiated opinion. If ur referring to design as being supported by naturalism or theism I have dozens of Nobel laureates who conclude the latter is the only plausible explanation. Can u name one who supports naturalism
I love it when Christians preface a ridiculous superstitious assertion with the words, "As a Christian I believe....." When they say that it's obvious they'd rather not have to own up to it. Being a Christian requires certain beliefs.
If God doesnt exists then no miracles are possible, right? But then the skeptic says "yeh but u'd have to be delusional to believe in the resurrection, surely? How deluded is that, I rest my case". Hmm what case would that be?
This is the sort of circular logic that the uneducated athiest or doubter falls for. Well Hitchens is about to end his nanocosmic life, and will find out he's wrong. Let's pray that he has a deathbed reconciliation.
hitch is great man.. he's like a cat playing with a mouse, he already knows how he is going to win the debate, but he takes pleasure in toying with his opponent until the final point.
Hitchens, Dennett, Harris and Dawkins pulled the straight razor of logic from one ear to the other on religion. It now comes to the internet to flail and flop as it bleeds out in death throes.Like a vampire in the sun it dissolves to dust under the brilliance of the beam of logic and reason. Religion attracts the failed, the fallen, the weak of my species. It is a fantastic dividing marker for who is human and who is just religious.Dont ignore this important division, its there for a reason.
@699backstab As an outspoken anti-theist myself, I must say your remarks against theists are disgusting and fraudulent. There exists no single idea that, when held by an individual, should free him of his humanity. That sort of condescending "Us vs. Them" mentality is what leads to genocide and the portrayal of atheism as an embodiment of Satan. Sir, please do not ever claim that you are representative of me or any atheist in these inflammatory remarks; your words will incriminate us.
It is us versus them. It is Jews versus Nazis, it is Hutu versus Tutsi. It is a fight for survival like never before. It is cowards like you, empty get along go along Muppets like you who represent the oil in the slippery slope to Human degradation. Freedom and truth must be fought for constantly. You sir are a treasonous submember of the Human species. Stop working against you kind and fall into line with the good guys. Religion kills, rapes, murders and lies. Anti theism= truth and Humanity
@699backstab Are u the Jews or the Nazis, the Tutsis, or the God haters? R u the ones who say they lack belief but then believe the most absurd concepts like an infinite past universe, that "naturalism", a la mindless matter explains our finite rationally-intelligible, life-permitting universe, abstact laws& ultimate reality? What has produced a morally bankrupt world, those who ignore the inner voice of conscience or those whos lives are accountable to God? Do u have a bad case of truth decay?
@699backstab The God debate is simple. If atheism is true then the brain is just a "collocation of atoms" (Russell) or "a bunch of selfish genes with no other purpose than survival" (Dawkins) So if the brain functions as a bunch of chemical reactions in a survival machine then all reality is reducible to mindless matter. Q1 are the abstract laws of science & Math invented or were they discovered? Q2 How does any intelligent immaterial reality exist in a universe of mindless matter &energy?
cont'd If atheism is true, the universe is just product of blind forces & mindless matter having no purpose or design. Why should it exist at all or obey abstract laws, ¬ be a random, chaotic mess of noxious swirling gases; meaningless tragedies are exactly what one would expect. Since it has no meaning, no mind would evolve to ever deduce it has no meaning. If any life were possible it would evolve thru blind chance as molecules & selfish genes. There would be no meaning no hope no escape.
If atheism is true, then morality is just illusory, the product of socio-biological evolution. It matters not whether u live a life as a motherTeresa or Adoft Hitler.The law of the jungle is amoral where the fittest survive at the expense of the weak, the old & genetically impure. Hitler, the maniacal dictator was just following neo-Darwinian evolution when he said, “The law of selection justifies this incessant struggle, the weak should perish allowing the survival of the fittest.”
@MomoTheBellyDancer what? false conclusion. Humans have always made their own morality and we're the only ones shaping reality to suit our needs. Have been since the great protein boom in the savannahs (when we were more ape-ish).
Our illusions manifest themselves all the time, due to our actions and not a puppet-master.
In the animal kingdom an ape can tear the offspring part & eat it, presumbly to ensure the strongest survive. Since we're just "a bunch of selfish genes whose sole purpose is survival" isnt morality just illusory? Rihard Dawkins thinks so: "there is no good, no evil just blind pittiless indifference" If there's no moral Law Giver, there is no objective morality and "all things are permitted", right?
"If there's no moral Law Giver, there is no objective morality and "all things are permitted", right? "
Wrong. The answer to this is SO simple, that it in turn baffles me that people have so much trouble finding it. Think of it this way: what is it that makes human societies survive? Fire up those neurons and think about it.
@Dpesh7 The proof for God is simple because of the absurdity of the alternative. If there's no spiritual dimension to existence then EVERYTHING is reducible to mindless matter &energy. But physical matter is not eternal in the past & highly complex, immaterial realities like scientific laws, abstract maths, numbers, logic and other non-contingent, metaphysical concepts DO exist Therefore there must be a non-contingent, spiritual agent that transcends matter.
I love the way christians manipulate the word of god. Everything has two meanings, much the same way a soothsayer would explain why what was foretold didn't happen the way it was told. Please give me $20 and will try again. The bible is full of wisdom, but the stories of creation, virgin birth, resurrection, and so on are just stories, magical tales of things that men could not understand. Perhaps told to children around a campfire since the beginning of language.
I find it shocking and dismaying that so many people aren`t interested in the truth. They would rather believe in Supernatural Fairytales because it makes them feel better.
@nickwade1 If atheism is true, what is the logical necessity for any universe to obey laws or rules, or that immaterial laws to exist at all or that those laws should be defined by abstract mathematics? Without a Law Giver, there are no grounds to assume the universe has to behave this way. It is easier to imagine a universe in which conditions change uncontrollably from instant to instant, or even a universe as a random chaotic mess of noxious gases. -hence compelling evidence that god exists.
If theism is true, 1)the universe has been created for a purpose 2)it would be finite in the past, exhibiting incredible design & predictability 3) intelligent life would emerge to observe the universe 2b rationally intelligible 4)Such a creature would be blessed with free will&reason, ability to grieve, dream, hope & to love 5) the issue of a personal God & transcendent meaning would be the most compelling issue dominating all human history. 6) life would have ultimate meaning purpose & destiny
@MomoTheBellyDancer In a godless worldview, the concept of purpose other than survival of a gene pool is irrelevant. WHY questions dont even exist in your world of mindless matter & energy.Just ask Peter Adkins. If ur looking for a scientific model for God u wont find one. Just as u wont find one for logic, abstract math, intuition, hope or love.
Have u ever really loved someone (more than ur own life)? "Those who do not love, know not God, for God is love." 1 John 4:7-21)
Change of subject noted. Why is it that no theists ever wants to address this question? They merely states "god exists" and then can't even say WHY such an entity would exist. In short, positing that a god exists doesn't answer why we're here, so why posit one in the first place?
"1 John 4:7-21"
"Fear Not. What is not real, never was and never will be. What is real, always was and cannot be destroyed." - Bhagavad Gita
@MomoTheBellyDancer have ur ever faced the consequences of "a godless worldview" ? Science confirms a finite rationally intelligible universe underpinned by abstract immaterial laws, physical constants & complex mathematical equations. Did mindless matter define abstract laws or did laws create matter? "An infinite regression of past finite physical events exists nowhere in nature. It remains solely that of an idea." Dave Hilbert.
"We must face the problem of a cosmic beginning" A.Vilenkin
@MomoTheBellyDancer "The laws of nature are human constructs" Gee I thought the aliens created all the laws of science to ensure the universe was life-permitting and rationally intelligible, underpinned by abstract immaterial laws, physical constants & complex mathematical equations.
Now when exactly did the human mind construct those laws, before they evolved a brain or before they existed? And here was me believing we discovered not created those immutable, abstract laws of science.
@Prodigalfather1 - A bit late on this, but do you realise that none of these points follow logically from the major premise of "theism is true" nor, in any way from each other? Really this is just a list of presumptions based on one understanding what theism means. It may not be wrong, but if you are going to claim these conclusions as logical proof, then your hypothesis can be dismissed on the grounds that the 'design' is not incredible, except in the sense of 'incredibly' clumsy and wasteful.
quantum physicist John Polkinghorne "there are 6 fundamental constraints in nature whose values have 2b astonishingly accurate if any intelligent, carbon-based life is to exist anywhere in the universe."
Prof. Freeman Dyson theoretical physicist "The more we understand about the universe the more it seems like it knew we were coming."
@babaluboo123 "You are subscribing to his idea that the universe has consciousness?" Which person of the two?
I'd say it's the concept that the universe is rationally intelligible, knowable or as Einstein said, incomprehensibly comprehensible. There is no logical necessity for any universe to exist let alone obey abstract laws or be defined by absurdly narrow life-permitting physical constants. that is in a godless worldview that atheism argues has no purpose..
@babaluboo123 You are subscribing to his idea that the universe has consciousness?"
Actually I assert that the universe is rationally intelligible to the human mind b/c its framed by IMMATERIAL laws & physical constants ALL of which must fall into a life-permitting range if any carbon-based lifeform is to exist anywhere in the universe. If no God & the universe is purely physical: how is Einstein's "incomprehensible universe" made comprehensible if mindless matter &energy is all there is?
@GodHatesPortugal How does it feel to be both a Nazi, and a moron who's been proven wrong by current events? The Iraqi Parliament just elected a secular candidate in their first free election since combat troops have been withdrawn. So much for the NWO theory... the only thing new about this world order is democracy.
Christopher Hitchens spoke the truth and his words will echo down through the centuries. RIP my friend.
mikefromwa 2 months ago
As a Christian I believe Hitchens is a dangerous lunatic, though when I put on my 'intelligent person hat' I believe that he makes perfect sense.
Fuliginosus 4 months ago 5
@Fuliginosus don't switch back to your asshat!
Stipoon 4 months ago
@Stipoon i'm crying
;' D
natmanprime 4 months ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer "how is Einstein's incomprehensible universe made comprehensible if mindless matter &energy is all there is?" What a terribly stupid thing to ask.
I guess Einstein must have been stupid to suggest "the only thing INcomprehensible about the universe is that it is COMPREHENSIBLE." If the universe is just mindless physical matter & energy, there is no logical necessity for it to be rationally intelligible or obey immaterial laws. Get it? No? Too much information, perhaps?
Gericho49 6 months ago
"- A bit late on this, but do you realise that none of these points follow logically from the major premise of "theism is true" I'm not sure which one of my post u refers to but if u attack my argument saying its logically unsound without saying how, that is just an unsubstantiated opinion. If ur referring to design as being supported by naturalism or theism I have dozens of Nobel laureates who conclude the latter is the only plausible explanation. Can u name one who supports naturalism
Prodigalfather1 6 months ago
I love it when Christians preface a ridiculous superstitious assertion with the words, "As a Christian I believe....." When they say that it's obvious they'd rather not have to own up to it. Being a Christian requires certain beliefs.
HellRehab 7 months ago
If God doesnt exists then no miracles are possible, right? But then the skeptic says "yeh but u'd have to be delusional to believe in the resurrection, surely? How deluded is that, I rest my case". Hmm what case would that be?
This is the sort of circular logic that the uneducated athiest or doubter falls for. Well Hitchens is about to end his nanocosmic life, and will find out he's wrong. Let's pray that he has a deathbed reconciliation.
Prodigalfather1 8 months ago
hitch is great man.. he's like a cat playing with a mouse, he already knows how he is going to win the debate, but he takes pleasure in toying with his opponent until the final point.
piratebri 1 year ago 4
Hitchens, Dennett, Harris and Dawkins pulled the straight razor of logic from one ear to the other on religion. It now comes to the internet to flail and flop as it bleeds out in death throes.Like a vampire in the sun it dissolves to dust under the brilliance of the beam of logic and reason. Religion attracts the failed, the fallen, the weak of my species. It is a fantastic dividing marker for who is human and who is just religious.Dont ignore this important division, its there for a reason.
699backstab 1 year ago 2
@699backstab As an outspoken anti-theist myself, I must say your remarks against theists are disgusting and fraudulent. There exists no single idea that, when held by an individual, should free him of his humanity. That sort of condescending "Us vs. Them" mentality is what leads to genocide and the portrayal of atheism as an embodiment of Satan. Sir, please do not ever claim that you are representative of me or any atheist in these inflammatory remarks; your words will incriminate us.
DrLoonatic 1 year ago
It is us versus them. It is Jews versus Nazis, it is Hutu versus Tutsi. It is a fight for survival like never before. It is cowards like you, empty get along go along Muppets like you who represent the oil in the slippery slope to Human degradation. Freedom and truth must be fought for constantly. You sir are a treasonous submember of the Human species. Stop working against you kind and fall into line with the good guys. Religion kills, rapes, murders and lies. Anti theism= truth and Humanity
699backstab 8 months ago
@699backstab Are u the Jews or the Nazis, the Tutsis, or the God haters? R u the ones who say they lack belief but then believe the most absurd concepts like an infinite past universe, that "naturalism", a la mindless matter explains our finite rationally-intelligible, life-permitting universe, abstact laws& ultimate reality? What has produced a morally bankrupt world, those who ignore the inner voice of conscience or those whos lives are accountable to God? Do u have a bad case of truth decay?
Prodigalfather1 8 months ago
@699backstab
Son of Nietzsche strikes again (besides the bit about the brilliance of reason).
ultraviolet99 8 months ago
@699backstab The God debate is simple. If atheism is true then the brain is just a "collocation of atoms" (Russell) or "a bunch of selfish genes with no other purpose than survival" (Dawkins) So if the brain functions as a bunch of chemical reactions in a survival machine then all reality is reducible to mindless matter. Q1 are the abstract laws of science & Math invented or were they discovered? Q2 How does any intelligent immaterial reality exist in a universe of mindless matter &energy?
Prodigalfather1 8 months ago
cont'd If atheism is true, the universe is just product of blind forces & mindless matter having no purpose or design. Why should it exist at all or obey abstract laws, ¬ be a random, chaotic mess of noxious swirling gases; meaningless tragedies are exactly what one would expect. Since it has no meaning, no mind would evolve to ever deduce it has no meaning. If any life were possible it would evolve thru blind chance as molecules & selfish genes. There would be no meaning no hope no escape.
Prodigalfather1 8 months ago
If atheism is true, then morality is just illusory, the product of socio-biological evolution. It matters not whether u live a life as a motherTeresa or Adoft Hitler.The law of the jungle is amoral where the fittest survive at the expense of the weak, the old & genetically impure. Hitler, the maniacal dictator was just following neo-Darwinian evolution when he said, “The law of selection justifies this incessant struggle, the weak should perish allowing the survival of the fittest.”
Prodigalfather1 8 months ago
@Prodigalfather1
"If atheism is true, then morality is just illusory"
Appeal to consequences sighted. Thanks for playing.
MomoTheBellyDancer 7 months ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer what? false conclusion. Humans have always made their own morality and we're the only ones shaping reality to suit our needs. Have been since the great protein boom in the savannahs (when we were more ape-ish).
Our illusions manifest themselves all the time, due to our actions and not a puppet-master.
JayLeePoe 7 months ago
@JayLeePoe
"what? false conclusion."
Are you responding to me? If so, your answer doesn't make a lot of sense, really.
MomoTheBellyDancer 7 months ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer @MomoTheBellyDancer "Appeal to consequences sighted. Thanks for playing."
In the animal kingdom an ape can tear the offspring part & eat it, presumbly to ensure the strongest survive. Since we're just "a bunch of selfish genes whose sole purpose is survival" isnt morality just illusory? Rihard Dawkins thinks so: "there is no good, no evil just blind pittiless indifference" If there's no moral Law Giver, there is no objective morality and "all things are permitted", right?
Gericho49 7 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Gericho49
"If there's no moral Law Giver, there is no objective morality and "all things are permitted", right? "
Wrong. The answer to this is SO simple, that it in turn baffles me that people have so much trouble finding it. Think of it this way: what is it that makes human societies survive? Fire up those neurons and think about it.
MomoTheBellyDancer 7 months ago
check and mate
Dpesh7 1 year ago
@Dpesh7 The proof for God is simple because of the absurdity of the alternative. If there's no spiritual dimension to existence then EVERYTHING is reducible to mindless matter &energy. But physical matter is not eternal in the past & highly complex, immaterial realities like scientific laws, abstract maths, numbers, logic and other non-contingent, metaphysical concepts DO exist Therefore there must be a non-contingent, spiritual agent that transcends matter.
Prodigalfather1 8 months ago
I love the way christians manipulate the word of god. Everything has two meanings, much the same way a soothsayer would explain why what was foretold didn't happen the way it was told. Please give me $20 and will try again. The bible is full of wisdom, but the stories of creation, virgin birth, resurrection, and so on are just stories, magical tales of things that men could not understand. Perhaps told to children around a campfire since the beginning of language.
Trapar137 1 year ago
I find it shocking and dismaying that so many people aren`t interested in the truth. They would rather believe in Supernatural Fairytales because it makes them feel better.
Oh Dear
nickwade1 1 year ago 3
@nickwade1 If atheism is true, what is the logical necessity for any universe to obey laws or rules, or that immaterial laws to exist at all or that those laws should be defined by abstract mathematics? Without a Law Giver, there are no grounds to assume the universe has to behave this way. It is easier to imagine a universe in which conditions change uncontrollably from instant to instant, or even a universe as a random chaotic mess of noxious gases. -hence compelling evidence that god exists.
Prodigalfather1 8 months ago
If theism is true, 1)the universe has been created for a purpose 2)it would be finite in the past, exhibiting incredible design & predictability 3) intelligent life would emerge to observe the universe 2b rationally intelligible 4)Such a creature would be blessed with free will&reason, ability to grieve, dream, hope & to love 5) the issue of a personal God & transcendent meaning would be the most compelling issue dominating all human history. 6) life would have ultimate meaning purpose & destiny
Prodigalfather1 8 months ago
@Prodigalfather1
"If theism is true, 1)the universe has been created for a purpose "
That's only true if you can show that there is an intrinsic purpose to the existence of god.
MomoTheBellyDancer 7 months ago
Comment removed
Gericho49 7 months ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer In a godless worldview, the concept of purpose other than survival of a gene pool is irrelevant. WHY questions dont even exist in your world of mindless matter & energy.Just ask Peter Adkins. If ur looking for a scientific model for God u wont find one. Just as u wont find one for logic, abstract math, intuition, hope or love.
Have u ever really loved someone (more than ur own life)? "Those who do not love, know not God, for God is love." 1 John 4:7-21)
Gericho49 7 months ago
@Gericho49
"In a godless worldview,"
Change of subject noted. Why is it that no theists ever wants to address this question? They merely states "god exists" and then can't even say WHY such an entity would exist. In short, positing that a god exists doesn't answer why we're here, so why posit one in the first place?
"1 John 4:7-21"
"Fear Not. What is not real, never was and never will be. What is real, always was and cannot be destroyed." - Bhagavad Gita
MomoTheBellyDancer 7 months ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer have ur ever faced the consequences of "a godless worldview" ? Science confirms a finite rationally intelligible universe underpinned by abstract immaterial laws, physical constants & complex mathematical equations. Did mindless matter define abstract laws or did laws create matter? "An infinite regression of past finite physical events exists nowhere in nature. It remains solely that of an idea." Dave Hilbert.
"We must face the problem of a cosmic beginning" A.Vilenkin
Gericho49 7 months ago
@Gericho49
"Did mindless matter define abstract laws or did laws create matter? "
The laws of nature are human constructs.
MomoTheBellyDancer 7 months ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer "The laws of nature are human constructs" Gee I thought the aliens created all the laws of science to ensure the universe was life-permitting and rationally intelligible, underpinned by abstract immaterial laws, physical constants & complex mathematical equations.
Now when exactly did the human mind construct those laws, before they evolved a brain or before they existed? And here was me believing we discovered not created those immutable, abstract laws of science.
Prodigalfather1 6 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Prodigalfather1
"Now when exactly did the human mind construct those laws,"
Over the course of history, mostly in a slow and meticulous process of trial and error.
"before they evolved a brain or before they existed?"
They didn't exist as laws. It was simply nature as it was. Human beings have derived the laws in an effort to understand nature.
"we discovered not created those immutable, abstract laws of science. "
Then you don't know anything about science. Q.E.D.
MomoTheBellyDancer 6 months ago
@Prodigalfather1 - A bit late on this, but do you realise that none of these points follow logically from the major premise of "theism is true" nor, in any way from each other? Really this is just a list of presumptions based on one understanding what theism means. It may not be wrong, but if you are going to claim these conclusions as logical proof, then your hypothesis can be dismissed on the grounds that the 'design' is not incredible, except in the sense of 'incredibly' clumsy and wasteful.
kelco93 6 months ago
How can one possibly put aside science and decide to believe a story like that?
Historically believe it?
The guys brain is mush.
babaluboo123 1 year ago
@babaluboo123 put aside WHAT SCIENCE EXACTLY?
quantum physicist John Polkinghorne "there are 6 fundamental constraints in nature whose values have 2b astonishingly accurate if any intelligent, carbon-based life is to exist anywhere in the universe."
Prof. Freeman Dyson theoretical physicist "The more we understand about the universe the more it seems like it knew we were coming."
Prodigalfather1 8 months ago
@Prodigalfather1 You are subscribing to his idea that the universe has consciousness?
babaluboo123 8 months ago
@babaluboo123 "You are subscribing to his idea that the universe has consciousness?" Which person of the two?
I'd say it's the concept that the universe is rationally intelligible, knowable or as Einstein said, incomprehensibly comprehensible. There is no logical necessity for any universe to exist let alone obey abstract laws or be defined by absurdly narrow life-permitting physical constants. that is in a godless worldview that atheism argues has no purpose..
Gericho49 7 months ago
Comment removed
MomoTheBellyDancer 7 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Gericho49
"There is no logical necessity for any universe to exist"
There is no necessity for any god to exist either.
MomoTheBellyDancer 7 months ago
@babaluboo123 You are subscribing to his idea that the universe has consciousness?"
Actually I assert that the universe is rationally intelligible to the human mind b/c its framed by IMMATERIAL laws & physical constants ALL of which must fall into a life-permitting range if any carbon-based lifeform is to exist anywhere in the universe. If no God & the universe is purely physical: how is Einstein's "incomprehensible universe" made comprehensible if mindless matter &energy is all there is?
Prodigalfather1 6 months ago
@Prodigalfather1
"how is Einstein's incomprehensible universe made comprehensible if mindless matter &energy is all there is?"
What a terribly stupid thing to ask.
MomoTheBellyDancer 6 months ago
Neo-trostskites/Neocons are funny.
How is that war in Iraq going Hitchens? How does it feel being a tool of the Jews?
LOL...
GodHatesPortugal 2 years ago
@GodHatesPortugal you didn't really say anything in that post, just white noise.
seppomuppit 1 year ago
@seppomuppit racist white noise, also with a name like godhates "fill in the blank" well you see where I'm going with that
GaiusIuliusTaberna 1 year ago
@GodHatesPortugal How does it feel to be both a Nazi, and a moron who's been proven wrong by current events? The Iraqi Parliament just elected a secular candidate in their first free election since combat troops have been withdrawn. So much for the NWO theory... the only thing new about this world order is democracy.
GaiusIuliusTaberna 1 year ago 2
brilliant bit of investigative journalism!
ykoshy 2 years ago 6
Good call on putting this together.
fubintien 2 years ago 6
Very observant.
GreedySpeculator 2 years ago 8
lol check mate
BorgHub 2 years ago 29
lol Yup! Hitch gets such a high from debating. It's awesome watching the guy.
JasonERF 2 years ago 40