Dessie's finest hour; on a course and going that he hated. It is impossible to over-praise Simon Sherwood for the patient ride that he gave him. Most jockeys would have been beaten on him, including the whip-happy so-and-so who replaced him.
nacarat nearly gave a stone away in the racing post and nearly won the race only lost by a short head and your telling me kauto couldnt win a handicap HE COULD he is ten times better than nacarat so for me he could win a big handicap no problem !!!
ok lets put this to bed, dessie gave 2st 12kg in 1990 racing post to highly rated Delius and Seagram, Theres no way Kauto Star could give away 2st or more to top rivals, no chance, Dessie won gold cup and Grand national in same year, never ever to be repeated.
Dessie the stuff of legend, Kauto is a great horse make no mistake but Dessie had charisma, he was a star, 60,000 people cheered him on to win the 1989 gold cup, gave his opponents lumps of weight and beat them hands down, kauto would struggle to give that weight away and acheive what Dessie did. He's got the honours to prove it.
Kauto has beat - Imperial Commander who was 7-8 in his peak, Exotic Dancer 6-9 in his peak, Neptune Collonges 5-9 in his peak. Voy Por Ustedes (Good at the time) 8yrs, All of these horses at the time were rated 172+ and therefore very good horses in their own right. But i would guess the Handicapper has got their ratings all wrong as well. I would like to know where you rank Kauto!
@Jamie2462A The ratings havnt been right for years. Kauto won 2 Gold Cups against very average oposition. But he won 2, hence the high ratings. If Dessie ran in Gold Cups against that lot, god knows wot his rating would have been. The handicapper has got his head up his own arse. Im the biggest Dessie fan you will ever find. But even I have 2 bow to the fact Arkle was probly the best ever. So for you 2 say his rating was 2 high, I dont know why Im even bothering with you. HE would have beat Des
@Jamie2462A You have 2 admit, ratings now days are 2 high. Do you really think they will b talking about anything Kauto has beat, bar Denman, in 20 years? Dessie beat The Fellow, Forgive And Forget, Carvill's Hill, Bonanza Boy etc
French bred horses peak earlier and that is common Knowledge. I never said handicaps dont matter. I have formed my argument about KAUTO and Dessie off level weights. The pinnicle of a horsescareer should be when they compete agains the best off level weights. That is then a fair reflection of their performance. The GC, KG and all the BIG races that attract all the best horses are Group 1s off level weights.
@SouthsideofGlasgow - LOL. So why has Denmans best performance been post Heart OP? Figures can be manipulted to get the best results for your argument. As for Alymster - Its not abot how active you are its about how good you are. Kauto strike rate is better than Dessies and he is French Bred so his last 3 on your stats are not a true reflection of him. I think Kauto is finished as a race horse but when he was on form and jumping well i think he has your horses measure. The prosecution now rests
@Jamie2462A So wot ur saying is.... Kauto was good for 3 years and cos he's french we should forgive his last year. U know nothing about racing mate if you think the horses Kauto WAS beating 2 seasons ago were better than the 1s Dessie was beating and giving lumps of weight 2.. Name me 3 TOP DRAWER horses he has ever beat.... apart from Denman.
And your earlier comments about handicaps not mattering makes me wonder why Im even bothering with you
@Jamie2462A So wot ur saying is.... Kauto was good for 3 years and cos he's french we should forgive his last year. U know nothing about racing mate if you think the horses Kauto WAS beating 2 seasons ago were better than the 1s Dessie was beating and giving lumps of weight 2.. Name me 3 TOP DRAWER horses he has ever beat.... apart from Denman.
And your earlier comments about handicaps not mattering makes me wonder why Im even bothering with you
@Jamie2462A And for your information, Denmans best performance was when he won the Gold Cup. That put him onto 182, he only repeated that mark after his op. But hey, in your opinion that doesnt count cos that was in the hennesssy.... and we all know you views on handicaps dont we
@ALmyster4791 I have no view on handicaps. I have views on ratings. Denman is a good weight carrying horse and would have galloped Dessie into the ground IMO if they had met in the 08 GC. I just dont see why you guys think KS does not hold a light to Dessie. Kauto has won more GC, same amount of King Georges and beat horses rated in the 180s. For the record i believe Arkles & Flyingbolts rating to be over eggagerated. They probably fit in the same bracket as both Dessie and Kauto.
@Jamie2462A Dessie would have destroyed both Kauto and Denman, You could have put Denman on Kauto's back and he still wouldn't have beat Dessie. He was a true weight carrying champion, King GeorgeI remember watching Dessie race in the 89 Victor Chandler Handicap Chase where he took on four rivals, including the top-class Panto Prince and Vodkatini. He gave them 22 pounds and the latter 23 pounds. And got up to win by an head, Both them horses were top class...
@Jamie2462A In Dessie's Gold Cup win he ran on absolutely desperate ground and he hated soft ground but ran up the hill like a true champion hated every yard of the muck, As much as Im a fan of Kauto and Denman only the latter can have some comparison to Dessie IMO. Dessie was pretty similar to Kauto in respect he was quick in his younger days winning a Tingle Creek over 2 miles and then racing in the Champion Chase before upping in trip to win 4 King Georges and a Gold Cup, But he could give...
@Jamie2462A give weight and win. In the 1990 Racing Post Chase, He showed his true ability beating the top class Delius and very good sorts such as Solidasarock and Seagram who all received substantial weight (2 stone plus, over 13 kg, each). One of his best performances and one of the best weight carrying performance since the days of the mighty Arkle. He should be rated as the second greatest of all time IMO, He was a Kauto/Denman rolled into one. A total one off...
@Jamie2462A Kauto as never raced in any big handicaps and would have struggled to give weight all round IMO, Kauto is a great horse but he cannot be compared to Dessie. Dessies CV is far more impressive IMO, 4 King Georges like Kauto, A Gold Cup, Irish Grand National, Tingle Creek, Victor Chandler Chase pretty similar to Kauto's except were is the evidence of Kauto carrying big weights in handicaps? Nowhere...
@ASupremeOwl But you still gotta beat whats in front of you though have you not? and he has already beaten dessies record in the king george now
but dessie is indeed a great horse too but i do like kauto star and if anything i'm glad i'm able to watch him in my lifetime unfortunatly not so with dessie or even redrum
@ASupremeOwl I've never understood the obsession with handicaps at all. Kauto Star would be better than any horse he came up against in them, and if he failed to win it would just be because the handicappers had given the others too little weight to carry.
@somerandomer Thats the whole point of an handicap, To give the best horse in the race the most weight to weaken there chances of winning and the rest an improved chance of winning. When a horse wins off top weight it just shows they have defied the handicapper. Dessie gave lumps of weight away in races and still won, Just like Arkle did all them years ago. Kauto isn't built for handicaps, I don't believe he could have give nearly 2 stone allround in an...
@somerandomer Hennessy Gold Cup like Denman did and still won, His CV of 5 King Georges, 2 Tingle Creeks, 2 Cheltenham Gold Cups, 4 Betfair Chases etc is very impressive. Had he won a few handicaps along the way he would have undoubtedly been the best ever but he hasn't, He couldn't even give weight away to Monet's Garden in the Old Roan...
In my opinion.... Arkle was b4 my time. Dessie is the best Iv seen. Kauto n Denman the best chasers of they're generation, but its not the best era. But they can only beat wots put in front of them. And Kauto cant give away a couple of pounds 2 horses. I believe that Big Bucks is the greatest horse in the past 20 years. But cos he is a hurdeler, he does not get the full credit he deserves, And he never will. Punchestowns, Diamond Harry, Time for Rupert, Mighty Man all ran 2 fences cos of him
yep dessie beat better horses in his king george wins there was a lot of brilliant horses around in the late 80's and now not so many but credit to kauto star he has beaten good horses easily denman aside,not many horses from the last 5 years at around 3miles will be talked about in 20 years apart from the big 2 from nichols stable(long run is the next 5 years and a lot to prove to be considered a true great
I suggest we agree to disagree. You have your stats to back up Dessie and i have mine to back up Kauto. We are all trying to put our opinions acrossa and we are not going to change each others minds. I am in the Kauto corner as i think he is the classier and more talented animal. The Denman Pre heart op thing is overated. He won the Hennessy in a career best post heart op. People need to understand that he did not go bad overnight. KS beat him fair and sqaure in 09.
@Jamie2462A Denman was better b4 his heart problem. Madison De Burles thrashed him at Kempton, and had the beating of him at Aintree b4 he fell. Madison De Burles is a pig . Won a hennesy cos Big Bucks hates fences. Fact is, at 11 Dessie was still at the top of his game, 7 runs at 11 winning a king george, racing post chase and a grand national. Record 1131241 At 12 he was placing giving weight away. Kauto is now going into his 11-12yr old season. Lets c wot he does Record at 11 so far 33P. WOW
@Jamie2462A Form of both horses from age 7 (Kautos 1st Gold Cup)
Desert Orchid U232514111131P112232211111111U121113124141323F........ 23 wins from 46 starts
Kauto Star 112111221U1111F133P...... 11 wins from 19 starts. And to be honest, even the biggest of Kauto fans would be hard pushed 2 say they think he can win again more than one more race.
The record speaks for it's self.... the defence rests
@Jamie2462A Form of both horses from age 7 (Kautos 1st Gold Cup)
Desert Orchid U232514111131P112232211111111U121113124141323F........ 23 wins from 46 starts
Kauto Star 112111221U1111F133P...... 11 wins from 19 starts. And to be honest, even the biggest of Kauto fans would be hard pushed 2 say they think he can win again more than one more race.
The record speaks for it's self.... the defence rests
@SouthsideofGlasgow My beef isnt with Denman. My point is this guy saying Kauto is better than Dessie. My point being, the horses Dessie was beating, and thrashing, were, in fact, much better than the horses Kauto has been beating. And as you just pionted out, Kauto only beat Denman after his dodgy heart. They are good, but not as good as Dessie. Just look at the oposition
Neptune only good in Ireland, Beef couldnt win over here, Dancer (and I loved that horse to bits) was a glorified handicapper. Imperial Commander only ever won twice away from Cheltenham. The point is Kauto and Denman are good horses. But even you have to admit, i n your heart of hearts, neither of them have ever ever beaten anything you could call "top class". The only gold cup winner Kauto ever beat was Imperial Commander who was a bag of shit, and Denman with his dodgy heart.... FACT
@ALmyster4791 The only bag of shit here seems to be you and your typical losing punters moans and groans, so let me see then what about long run , not a top class horse then which he clearly is and kauto has finaly beaten him twice now and imperial commander was a good horse too to of won a gold cup race, so you think it's easy to win a gold cup race then do you, you talk a pile of shit
Kauto Star, Denman, Imperial Commander, Beef or Salmon, Exotic Dancer, Neptune Collonges when fit. These horses are gold cup contenders in any era. Now we have Long Run. Llike you said it is all opinions, but firmly in the corner of KS because i believe he is better...around both Cheltenham and Kempton. Its something we will have to differ on. I simply think Kauto goes through the gears and catches Dessie in the last 2 furlongs and beats him around both Chelt and Kemp.
My own personal view is that Dessie would have outstayed KS all day. Just my opinion & no not backed by ratings. But isent that why we are all commenting here? Opinion & a love of this great sport?
@Jamie2462a Listen I'm not here to get into childish squabbles over these superb animals, as some of your text appears to be attempting to provoke. I think KS is a magnificent chaser. Who has he beaten though? Horses like Forgive n Forget, who lined up against Dessie would have exposed KS!! The Thinker was a diamond. Burrough Hill Lad I feel has always been overlooked somewhat. I simply do not believe the in depth quality is in NH presently.
So you are saying that the Handicapper has got it all wrong? I would suggest he would be in a position to evaluate races and rate them far more accurately than either you or me. Next you will be telling me Dessie gives Kaut a stone and a beating at Kempton. Or maybe even laps Kauto. Kauto is rated higher, has more gold cups and and has beaten horses rated higher than Dessie when in on form. Deal with it. Kauto could have won the KG by 90 lengths and you would still say Dessie wins. 'BLINKERS'
@Jamie2462A Please.... go and look back at horse racing from before 2004.
You are obviously brought up in this era of racing, where the horses arnt all that. Kauto, Denmam and Long Run are all very good. Top class, but in a sub standard era for national hunt racing. They have no real oposition.
The depth in class during the 70's and 80's far far better. And you keep mentioning the ratings. Kauto had that huge rating cos he beat Madison De Burles n Racing Deamon for crying out loud. Who are they?
Horses from different generations can only be evaluated by what the handicapper deemed fit. Sadly he appears to be getting things increasingly wrong. DM & KS in my opinion rated too high. Weight, age, course, going.All say to me that Dessie had no right to win this GC. Yes Dessie regularly carried lumps of weight but to say he beat average horses is doing some fine steeple chasers a great disservice. A golden period for NH!
@PunkersTV Could not agree with you more. The golden age of jump racing has been and gone. We may be in a golden age of flat racing (Sea The Stars, Yates, Frankel, Canford Cliffs, Goldikova, Zenyata, Fame And Glory etc), but the jumpers around for the past 5 or 6 years have been pritty average, apart from Kauto, Big Bucks, Denman and Long Run. Hence the stupidly high ratings Kauto n Denman and even Long Run have.... They have beat nothing. Big Bucks is the best around since Dessie
This was voted the greatest race of all-time in a poll carried out by racing post.
Its even more special when you listen to the commentary of the late- great Peter Bromley,which is avalible online on RealPlayer;If you have'nt heard his commentary on the race i fully reccomend it to anyone...Spine tingling!!!
I think we will have to agree to disagree. Kauto not finished out of top 3 when finishing a race. When on his game he was formidable. Im sure you know french horses peak early hence Kauto not producing as a 10 or 11 year old as he did at 7,8 and 9. Dessie beat a not to great horse here and the favourite fell when in with every chance. Nortons coin was not the best but beat Dessie. Kauto V Dessie off LEVEL weights Kauto wins. Dessie beating inferior horses giving weight does not change that.
@Jamie2462A the horses Dessie gave weight 2 were better horses than Kauto couldnt give weight 2. Level weights..... Dessie would jump Kauto into the ground. He was faster, stayed further and jumped better
@Jamie2462A Dessie was over 14lb inferior on a left handed track....he beat Nortons Coin 30l+ at Kempton!! He would have destroyed Kauto right handed. Kauto Star beat Ashley Brook at levels by a fast diminishing one & half lengths at levels in the Victor Chandler run at Sandown. As a 12 year old Dessie met the future winner & contenders of the Champion Chase when the VC was atop class handicap....Dessie conceded 20lb plus to all his rivals yet was only beat 6 lengths by horses half his age.
@Jamie2462A Kauto also lacked guts in a fight. Twice he conceded weight & both times he lost. He was a very smart horse when all was in his favour but frankly Dessie was in another league. Kauto may have had a higher rating at just one point in his career but thats because Phil Smith the handicapper over-rated the Nicholls horse....dropping him 19lb after his hammering in the KG last year, a race won by a true champion in one of the fastest ever times on soft ground.
The Greatest steeplechaser of all time!! To win over three miles round a left handed course, beating the mud loving Yahoo after being previously regarded as a 2 miler was absolutely phenomenal!! R.I.P Dessie much loved never forgotten.
Kauto is rated better than Dessie for a reason. In the 2 biggest races of the year his stats out do Dessie. Here are KS stats for the 2006 KG all the way to the 2011 GC. Only the KG and GC are in the stats. 1112111F33. What are Dessies?
@Jamie2462A 12111313F. Kauto 6 wins from 10.... Dessie 5 from 9.
Bear in mind tho.... Dessie never ran in a Gold Cup untill the age of 10. In 83 runnings of the race, only 7 winners have been aged over 10. Kauto won his 1st at 7 then at 9. He stopped on the hill at 10 and was a spent force in the King Keorge.
So, the real reason Kauto is rated higher than Dessie is because he has thrashed rubbish horses. 35L winner of a KG beating Madison Du Berlais, Barbers Shop and Nacarat. Please
Thank you for posting this and Thank You Dessie. God, he was amazing. I've just watched it five times and each time I'm laughing and crying before the end. His FACE! He's so intelligent, so sensitive and all teh time thinking and communcating, with hs jockey, the other horses and the world around. So graceful, strong, brave, and always kind.
r@foriamonlyahorse re Dessie in the Victor Chandler. I do recall it. Quite unbievable the lumps of weight that horse carried. He was all heart determination and character. I mean this Gold cup! He hated the course he loathed the mud yet look at him charge up that hill!!!!
@PunkersTV I was only 7 yet this still remains the greatest horse and greatest race of my generation! KS couldn even lace denmans boots never mind dessie!! Im sure most of you have seen the painting of dessie with red rum and arkle, try replacing dessie with KS it would look like a p**s take! And that for me says it all " those on the painting were and still are THE 3 legends of racing!!!
@PunkersTV I was only 7 yet this still remains the greatest horse and greatest race of my generation! KS couldn even lace denmans boots never mind dessie!! Im sure most of you have seen the painting of dessie with red rum and arkle, try replacing dessie with KS it would look like a p**s take! And that for me says it all " those on the painting were and still are THE 3 legends of racing!!!
Desert Orchid carried 12 stone in the victor Chandler Chase and still beat the very classy Panto Prince. Kauto Star great horse But not in the same league as Dessie in my opinion.
@PunkersTV I just read a list of the ten best horses ever and they're all American. Is American racing a better standard? I've always thought the gold cup and the grand national were the biggest races but then i would say that.
@chatsworth1buccaneer I have seen some american racing.and they have produced some quality. For me personally NH in the UK is unrivaled because you develope a relationship with the horse that returns season after season. My personal favourite Race Horses of all time...no particular order... Forgive n Forget, Desert Orchid, Best Mate and Burrough Hill lad. Now that would be some match up.!
@chatsworth1buccaneer The Cheltenham Gold Cup is THE blue chip Race Horse in the racing world. The Grand National not so much. Popular but you do not get the very best grade 1 horses often enough. Great spectacle however.
@PunkersTV Something people forget is that Dessie carried 12 stone as a 12 year old in the Victor Chandler. He was beaten just 6l conceding 20lb plus to no less than Blitzreig, Katabatic & Young Snugfit...all tip top champion chase class two milers of their era!! I remember Kauto Star beating useful Ashley Brook over two miles at Sandown by a fast diminishing 1 1/2l at level weights...enough said!!
I have just realised that Kauto Star has had a form rating of 191. I simply cannot work this out as Dessie's highest was 188. There is NO WAY ON GOD'S EARTH that KS was better than Dessie! That is laughable!!! Dessie could run top class from 2m right up to 3m 5fl at very heavy weights against TOP CLASS opposition. KS can't do this and never has!
@aquamarineeyes The ratings that especially Nicholls horses have been given are very suspect indeed. 1833 rated 159 JOKE (8lb higher than Denman at same stage of career) - The Nightingale rated 167 JOKE - Kauto Star actually rated 193 JOKE (now dropped to 174) - Imperial Commander 185 JOKE !! When you look at all time greats like Pearlyman 172, Best Mate 179 & Barnbrook Again 172 it shows something has gone awry with Mr. Smiths handicapping skills!!!!!!!
@foriamonlyahorse11 Couldnt agree more. High ratings for beating complete dross. How Imperial Commander got 2 within 2lbs of Dessie is beyond me. He only ever won ONE of the championship races.
And Kauto, as good as he was, wasnt beating anything decent. In 10 years time, will they still be talking about Our Vic , Madison Du Berlais (crap horse that got lucky twice), Exotic Dancer (couldnt cut it at top level). I doubt it. Yet we still hear of The Fellow, Charter Party, Wayward Lad etc
@ALmyster4791 Thats exactly right. The exact same thing happened in Arkles era. Three horses dominated: Arkle, Flying Bolt & Mill House. These were so much better than the previous generation that the handicapper went OTT. No horse has got near them in 50 years which proves there was a grave error of judgement. Yes they were great horses but no better than Dessie. The handicapper got carried away again with KS, Denman & IC. Now Long Run has smashed them all into oblivion is he to be rated 250?
In my opinion, I think Dessie preferred right-handed courses like Sandown, Ascot and Kempton?
Because it was said that he hated Cheltenham, backed up by the fact that his record at courses like Kempton were substantially better than when he ran at Cheltenham.
It is widely accepted that Desert Orchid was about 16lb inferior on a left handed track. The runner up in this race was beaten 16l in the King George thus this adds weight to that theory. If it were not for that then Desert Orchid would have won 3 Gold Cups, 2 Champion Chases & an Arkle along with his 4 King Georges. The handicapper would have surely had Dessie rated in excess of 200 as a result.
Could anyone seriously see Kauto Star giving like of Delius 2 stone & a beating?
@dailystar1 Don't forget his win in arguably the finest ever renewal of the Racing Post Chase. Dessie, who was 11 at the time, carried 12st 3lb & conceded 2st to Martel Chase runner up, Delius, a feat the handicapper described as ''impossible''. The 3rd horse Seagram was beaten 19l receiving a COLOSSAL 35lb !!!!! Seagram won the following years National, beating an above average Gold cup winner 5l receiving just 5lb!!!!
Kauto Star only just managed to concede 10lb to handicapper Lami by a SH
@foriamonlyahorse1 Couldnt agree with you more. Garrison Savannah beat The Fellow in the gold cup in 1991 with Dessie in 3rd (at the age of 12) and TWO other Cheltenham Gold Cup winners behind him. That gold cup 2 me is hugely over looked as 1 of the best of all time. You also had Party Polotics, Kildimo, Arctic Call, Carrick Hill Lad, Yahoo, Celtic Shot, Nick The Brief.... all Graded Chase winners or winners of the top handicaps in a golden era for jump racing IMO. Kauto has never done that
@ALmyster947 Yes, Dessie was past his best when he was 3rd, however it was a gutsy effort when looking placed seemed an impossibility. The real measure of Dessie was that he gave 35lb & 19l beating to Seagram whereas Garrison Savanah was beaten by Seagram conceding just 5lb.
I get sick of the Nicholls sycophant club brown nosing away re. Kauto & Denman. Desert Orchid would have jumped fragile KS into the ground & plodder Denman wouldn't see which way Dessie went on a RH track!!
@foriamonlyahorse1 Kauto is a top horse in an average era, and unfortunatly will never have fully proved himself.Just look at the KG last year, beating horses 36l shows just how poor his oposition is.Denman is, IMO, a glorified handicapper,a top 1 by all means,but again against average horses. I personaly dont think Kauto would have won a Gold Cup had he been around in Best Mates day.
Simple fact,Dessie beat good horses all the time giving weight. Kautos rating is high against average performers
@ALmyster947 I think the handicapper needs to reassess the whole form thing using race times/conditions. When you look at Arkles rating he allegedly could give Desert Orchid two stone which is crap!!
I agree with you regard Best Mate. That horse has incredibly come in for some flak on here yet in this third Gold Cup win he was practically bumped off his feet at a crucial moment yet still was able to quicken & dig in up the hill. I know on Nicholls FB page some idiots think KS will be back!
@foriamonlyahorse1 He certainly looked an old tired horse yesterday, but I hear he had a small bleed after the race, either way 9-2 for the gold cup, I'll probly take a bit of that haha.
Agree with you on the handicapper point. Horses rating are going up stupidly for baeting nothing much. The horses Kauto has beaten, compared 2 wot Dessie beat giving lumps away, well its different ball games. Nothing Kauto has beat has achived anything, bat Commander.
@ALmyster947 Thats only because Commander made two howlers & that course would never suit an outright stayer like IC. I thought KS was tens for the GC? He'd have no chance in my opinion...they don't often comeback...once they are gone they are gone.
@foriamonlyahorse1 I think Nicholls is bang out of form at the moment and Kauto had a small bleed. I wouldnt write him totally off just yet.
Thing is tho, he isnt cutting it as an 11 year old, he runs 3 times a year at level weights against average opposition. Dessie would laugh at such a career. Any1 who thinks Kauto is a better horse than Desert Orchid is a clown that knows nothing about horse racing.
5 in a row.... your having a laugh. All hail king Desert Orchid.... a champion of champions
@ALmyster947 That may be the case but it has emerged that Long Run won that race in 6m 3s, an absolutely amazing time considering the soft ground!!!! The bleed may have been as a result of his crashing through the fence after he was already well beaten off...seems the Nicholls stable are already seeking excuses to justify sending KS into one last Gold Cup battle. I fear the worse for the horse (KS)...even the handicapper has dropped him 19lb in his assessment this year due to his rapid decline!!
dessie beat kauto at level weights? sorry but whos has the higher rating? if dessie is better why doesnt he have a higher rarting? maybe its dessie that beat donkeys?
@TissuePrices Dessie beat Yahoo 16l in the King George yet only edges him out at Cheltenham? Dessie was 14lb inferior left handed & this affected his rating of 187 v 191 KS. Kauto only just, shd, gave 10lb to Lami, a half decent handicapper. Dessie conceded 2 stone to top class Delius & even more to top class handicappers. Kauto has been wrapped up in cotton wool throughout his career, Dessie wasn't ever. Ratings do not take into account a horses courage. Dessie would have broken Kauto in two!!
@TissuePrices It is you who is deluded. Kauto once again has little opposition in the KG this year with only babies Burton Port, Riverside Theatre & Long Run offering some kind of opposition. KS & Denman dominated in an era where quality staying chasers are thin on the ground. The first time either met a good one in the Gold Cup (Imperial Commander) they both got hammered!!!!
@TissuePrices You really live in a dream world. I feel for you. You must have only been following racing for 2 years. Horses have bigger ratings these days than they should cos they r beating average horses. The golden age of jump racing has been and gone. Kauto would have been in the thick of it, but the fact he cant give weight 2 Monets Garden and Our Vic says it all. Dessie beat far superior horses than that giving alot more weight. You probly think Kauto would beat Arkle
any racing exerpt will tell u kauto is better then denman
u go on about carrying weight, he doesnt run handicaps, for the top horese they are a thing of the past, its all about grade 1s, weak era? this is prob the strongest era of chasers, its kauto and to lesser extent denman are so far ahead of the rest.
@TissuePrices I think you are about 14 years old with a racing knowlage of the past 2 years. This is 1 of the weakest 3m+ Chase eras in many years. You have Kauto, Denman and.... well no1 else. Imperial Comander can only win at Cheltenham unless he races a bunch of pigs. Are you really saying Long Run is top class? Madison Du Berlais? Snoopy Loopy? Notre Pere? Rambling Minster? Tartak? Ollie Magern? Racing Demon? Monkerhostin ? Turpin Green? L'Ami? Kingscliff? My Will? That is the level 2 beat
His beating of Panto Prince in the Victor Chandler, giving away 22lb over an inadequate 2 miles was simply extraordinary. No horse since has been tested in such a way. The fact that he could then go on and win the Gold Cup in desperate ground going left handed sealed his immortality for me
@ASupremeOwl I agree with you on every point bar Denman. I do beleive that both 100% fit and well Kauto would give Denman a beating.
But this muppet trying 2 say Kauto would beat Dessie is in another world. Dessie gave a beating 2 Panto Prince, Pegwell Bay, Kildimo, THE FELLOW for goodness sakes. There is nothing Kauto is beating. No horse Kauto has beat has ever held its form, bar Exotic Dancer.
He beats these horses easy enough, so he is a great horse, no doubting that. But hes 5 lths off Des
Kauto Star is a good racehorse but not in the league of Dessie. Kauto couldn't even give a stone to Monets Garden but Dessie gave a 1 and half stone away to Panto's Prince a multi grade one winner and still beat him and two stone to everyone in the Racing Post chase. Theres only Denman who would attempt that in this day and age. For as good as Kauto is hes been wrapped in cotton wool all his career. I still think Master Minded is the best horse Clive Smith owns...
@ASupremeOwl I agree with that. Master Minded is a better horse than KS. The 3 mile ranks have been weak since the demise of Best Mate. There are normally a host of good Irish 3M chasers but these have not emerged either. Denman & Kauto have had it easy up until last year. Beating 150 rated handicappers hollow in the King George is hardly that impressive. Dessie beat 160+ chasers in the Racing Post chase conceding beating 28 & 35lb, defying an 'impossible task' according to the Official H/Capper
There really is no discusion here. Kauto is beating a bunch of average performers rated FAR 2 high off of level weights. HE CANT GIVE WEIGHT AWAY. Dessie would give weight 2 proven horses 4-5 times a year and thrash them in2 the ground. Kauto is the best around during an average time for jump racing. He is no doubt a class act, and would have given Dessie a right good race, but his Jumping is 2 suspect. If he tryd 2 stand off outside the wings upsides Dessie, he'd b sniffing on landing
There isn't enough Desert Orchid on YT. I'm an Irishman and totally infected with the Arkle, Captain Christy , Monksfield, Dawn Run and Istabraq bugs. Of English-trained stars I was immune to the Best Mate bug, fairly immune to Kauto Star, a fair bit susceptible to Denman -I'll probably succumb if he wins another Gold Cup -but I'm an emotional wreck looking at videos of Desert Orchid and Red Rum. Desert Orchid was a weight carrier and that alone puts him closer to Arkle than most in my book.
I remember Kauto Star just beating Lami who received just 10lb. Lami was a mere handicapper & out of form at the time. Kauto is not capable of giving weight. We have had only one good 3 mile chaser join Kauto & Denman in the last 3 or 4 years & that's Imperial Commander & looked what happened in the Gold Cup!! Now with babies Diamond Harry & especially Burton Point on the scene things should hot up.
@TissuePrices You are talking shite pal. Dessie would have jumped Kauto into the ground. All Kauto has beaten in his King Georges are handicappers & the odd grade two horse.
Dessie gave 2 stone & 8l beating going away to top class Delius in Racing Post Chase. The third Seagram, in the form of his life, was beaten 16l receiving 2st 7lb!!! Seagram then won the National receiving just 5lb from the Gold Cup winner! dessie was at least a stone wrong at Cheltenham...add 14 to his 187 o/rating!!!!
Desert Orchid was rated 187. Kauto Star is 191. However, Dessie's rating also included his below par performances at Cheltenham. He beat the same horse, grade one winner Yahoo, by a going away 16 lengths at Kempton, with a great grade one winner in second (Barnbrook Again). Despite all being in Yahoo's favour he still beats him at Cheltenham. Allow for the 14lb he ran below form on left handed tracks he could have been rated in excess of 200.
Beating 150 rated chasers by 30 lengths in the King George is no big deal & is what should be expected by a 180 + rated chaser. Dessie beat 160+ rated chasers giving them lumps of weight in top HANDICAPS not to mention facing top class fields of grade one & two chasers in his King George wins.
Madison De Berlais, hardly the most consistent yard stick, was second to Kauto only a couple of lengths in front of a 152 horse, wouldnt have got near Dessie even with just ten stone!
Small minority? I don't think so. When has Kauto Star given top class handicappers weight & a beating? Never, why because it is been proven as beyond him. Kauto is consistent because he is wrapped up in proverbial cotton wool!! Dessie took on all races over all trips 2m to 3m 5f at tracks he loved & hated carrying upto 12stone 4pound vs the best around including greats like Barnbrook Again.
If Dessie handled left handed tracks he would have been rated at or around 200.
I am not doubting his greatness. Okay, he is no where near as tough as Des or Arkle. However his 2009 Gold Cup win was amazing & for me his best ever performance bang there with Dessies Racing Post Chase win under 12st 2lb.
I just feel had these two ever met at Kempton Dessies jumping would have had Kauto in real trouble. Let's not forget horses are herding animals & like 'sheep' they tend to follow. Had Kauto tried to follow Dessies jumps he'd come a cropper at one stage.
@TissuePrices Who has Kauto ever beaten. Please name me 1 decent horse he has ever given weight to. I was a big Exotic Dancer fan, but his buble seemed 2 pop after his 2nd big season. Dessie beat top horses giving upto 2 stone 3-4 times a year. Kauto (and Im a Kauto fan, he's the best around just now) cant even give horses rated 15lbs inferior 2 him a stone, and he runs 3 times a year. Fact is, horses these days, for wotever reason, have higher ratings than they deserve. Kauto isnt beating much
@TissuePrices Do you know anything about racing or do you just watch it for the pritty colours they wear? They were going 2 run him in this years Hennessy. They dont run him in handicaps, cos he cant give weight away, never has never will.
He is doing a great job I agree. But top rated horses have ratings higher than they diserve. Kauto has beaten average horses on level weights, n ame 1 GREAT horse. As much as I love Kauto, he has never fully proved himself.... Arkle n Dessie gave weight away
@TissuePrices You muppet. Kauto is nowhere near as good as Dessie. When as Kauto ever run an handicap and given weight away? He hasn't because he wouldn't handle it. Dessie would destroy Kauto and thats a fact...
@TissuePrices You clearly have no idea about racing so why anyone is bothering to acknowledge you is beyond Me. Dessie off even weights would destroy Kauto your in the small minority of idiots who think Kauto is anywhere near as good as Dessie. Kauto as beat very average horses all his career. Denman on his day off level weights is the best of the two in Nicholls yard. End of story. Dessie a true true legend
The horse fancied himself as a bit of a playboy in his day, but today he was asked the most serious questions of his racing life. Man up or move over. He showed today he lay down for no horse. It was a brutal day.
So So brave he was, I was right by the winning post that day, and will never forget a guy climbin the fence, pumping with emotion shouting take that you critics!!!,, a great day it was
Legendary though Dessie rightly is, my favourite thing about this clip is the crowd noise throughout - at every fence and at the finish line. Fantastic stuff.
voted the greatest race ever...and rightly so. vintage n.h racing days before all these soft conditions races were introduced. tingle creeks and v.c chases were h'caps and rightly so. true warriors carrying welter burdens. thats why to me denman is a greater horse than kauto. but thats just my opinion.
@grincher2006 I agree with you except the 2 comments about Dessie not staying & going left-handed. Remember he won the Whitbread the year before over 3m 5f and he had already won at Aintree previously, so those 'ghosts' had already been buried.
@XLadyClaireX Dessie did win left handed at Aintree (soft four runner race) but Aintree & Cheltenham are chalk & cheese thus require different attributes. Speed & stamina respectively. Ironically, despite being clearly 10lb to a stone inferior at Cheltenham, Dessie never finished out of the first three in any of his six chases at Cheltenham, a measure of his courage & class (3rd Arkle, 3rd Champion Chase x2, 3rd Gold Cup x2 & Gold Cup winner). A truly great horse.
This video is magic, i have watched it well over a 100 times, and every time i think there is no way dessie can get up there, but he obv does haha, and the commentary is awesome aswell, RIP Dessie
The line "He's beginning to get up" by O'Sulivan sends shivers down the spine. Dessie hates Cheltenham, hated the going but had the talent and heart to win this. Great great horse and up there with the best of them.
i dont know anything about racing or what makes horses great, all i know is i love this race. Such guts and determination from my favourite horse ever. Maybe not the best ever but my favourite anyway. The commentary is just sublime. Right at the end. "Dessie has done it." Even the commentator refers to him by his nickname. It just shows you how much Dessie was loved by all.
Also.... in regards 2 "Yahoo never won a race after this gold cup".... wot bout the martell cup at Aintree 2 weeks later. I do love Kauto, but the simple fact is, he has tried, and faild, to give weight away to lesser horses then Dessie did. Dessie was churned out 6-7 times a season, giving weight away reguarly, and never ran a bad race. Racin is very different now days. Horses have higher ratings than I believe they should have. Kauto IS great, but he isnt beating anything special
@ALmyster947 I thoroughly agree with your comments. Kauto is a great Horse but in truth he has only beat handicappers in his King George wins. That said the manner of his wins suggest he would have given Dessie plenty to think about. Dessie though was very successful at conceeding lumps of weight. He was never wrapped in cotton wool & was pitched against the best often given them 2 stone, occasionally more (gave 35lb & 19l beating to future National winner Seagram). A truly great horse.
ibane.... there was 2 Grand National winners in the race, and the hadicapers you refer 2 won the big hadicaps, not sum micky mouse race round Ludlow. At the end of it all, and I am a big Kauto fan, but who has Kauto ever beaten? The horses around, Kauto aside, are VERY average. Dessie, if you look thu his races, beat several Gold Cup n King George winners. I take your point bout this being a slog. But if you are really telling me Kauto would have beaten him this day.... you dont know racing....
ibane i agree but dessie hated left handed courses its a fact he was stones better going right handed.that day cheltemham was a mud bath yahoo was a mud lover but the old fella got up i dont think kauto would have given the likes of panto prince 2 stone plus over 2 miles and beat them sandown and kempton were dessies courses and there he was unbeatable and the weight he used to give away can only be matched by arkle so thats says it all
Dessie would roust Kauto and Denman I recon. Kauto couldnt give a stone 2 Monets Garden. But Dessie gave over a stone and a half 2 Panto Prince (a mutli winner) and 2 stone to the whole field in the Racing Post Chase. You wouldnt get that now days
@ALmyster947 desert orchid was a great horse round kempton,even would have arkle off the bit at kempton.but this gold cup was a bunch of handicapers.yahoo never won a race after this gold cup,ten plus was a up n coming horse who was still going ok when falling in this race and sadly had to be put down.desert orchid reminds me of wayward lad,a legend round kempton but didnt take to well to cheltenham,for that reason id rate kauto star more than dessie
He may not have liked Cheltenham but still placed in two high class Champion Chases. He won this Gold Cup in his first attempt in the race aged 10! His 3rd place the following year came less than a month after a stunning Racing Post win and a month later he won the Irish National. He was 12 when 3rd in 1991. Had he run in a GC at a younger age rather than in the Champion he may well have won 3.KS was visually taking in this year's KG but lofty figure is not justified on form of 2nd to 4th..
@jafeica some of those horses you mentioned were rather poor bonanza boy only won welsh national carvills hill won nowt the thinker won gold cup but never won a race after.west tip won national but was buthchered in high class races.desert orchid was overated great round kempton but thats it.
@ALmyster947 ...absolutely will never forget the battle with panto prince or pegwell bay, no horse will ever be able to produce the gutsy weight carrying performances that dessie did.
My fav thing about this is the crowd when they jump the last. Listen how loud it is on the run up, then it builds as they get 2 the fence, but as they jump it goes really quiet in anticipation. And then when they land the roar starts again and builds in 3 steps, when they get 2 the bottom of the hill.... when he starts drifting over.... and when he kicks clear.
'He's beginning to get up!' race of the century. If you look closely at 1:07 you can see dessie's head move and a wee brief expression of glee when he knew he had Yahoo. That horse knew what he was on the course to do. Legend
There's only one Dessie.The horse that proves us wrong all the time.
KingDessie 1 week ago
Dessie gave away loads of weight yet still won around 18 majors.
He's an absolute superstar who hated left hand tracks (Cheltenham).
This imo was the best gold cup and looking forward to the festival on
13 th Feb... Forget the form book and Kauto beating Long Run last time out.
Long run will get him again going up the hill..
40ChampagneSupernova 2 weeks ago
Dessie's finest hour; on a course and going that he hated. It is impossible to over-praise Simon Sherwood for the patient ride that he gave him. Most jockeys would have been beaten on him, including the whip-happy so-and-so who replaced him.
112sje 1 month ago
dessie is a legend
yognaut619 2 months ago
nacarat nearly gave a stone away in the racing post and nearly won the race only lost by a short head and your telling me kauto couldnt win a handicap HE COULD he is ten times better than nacarat so for me he could win a big handicap no problem !!!
mayess277 2 months ago
ok lets put this to bed, dessie gave 2st 12kg in 1990 racing post to highly rated Delius and Seagram, Theres no way Kauto Star could give away 2st or more to top rivals, no chance, Dessie won gold cup and Grand national in same year, never ever to be repeated.
damobowie1 1 month ago
Dessie the stuff of legend, Kauto is a great horse make no mistake but Dessie had charisma, he was a star, 60,000 people cheered him on to win the 1989 gold cup, gave his opponents lumps of weight and beat them hands down, kauto would struggle to give that weight away and acheive what Dessie did. He's got the honours to prove it.
damobowie1 2 months ago
mazingley Desert Orchid all has life he usento run the Queen Mother Champion chase from 1986-to-1988 finsh olny secund and third
waqarkhan25 3 months ago
At 1:06 I swear Dessie looks over at the crowd, probably just to say "Watch this then boys & girls!"
agaskew 3 months ago
Does anyone know how to get the video of 1991 garrison savannah gold cup posted on here, would love to see it
TheSpano1979 3 months ago
the runner up was clearly a very good horse too by the looks of it and only just failed not to win this
MYBIGKINDHEART 3 months ago
Kauto has beat - Imperial Commander who was 7-8 in his peak, Exotic Dancer 6-9 in his peak, Neptune Collonges 5-9 in his peak. Voy Por Ustedes (Good at the time) 8yrs, All of these horses at the time were rated 172+ and therefore very good horses in their own right. But i would guess the Handicapper has got their ratings all wrong as well. I would like to know where you rank Kauto!
Jamie2462A 5 months ago
@Jamie2462A The ratings havnt been right for years. Kauto won 2 Gold Cups against very average oposition. But he won 2, hence the high ratings. If Dessie ran in Gold Cups against that lot, god knows wot his rating would have been. The handicapper has got his head up his own arse. Im the biggest Dessie fan you will ever find. But even I have 2 bow to the fact Arkle was probly the best ever. So for you 2 say his rating was 2 high, I dont know why Im even bothering with you. HE would have beat Des
ALmyster4791 5 months ago
@Jamie2462A You have 2 admit, ratings now days are 2 high. Do you really think they will b talking about anything Kauto has beat, bar Denman, in 20 years? Dessie beat The Fellow, Forgive And Forget, Carvill's Hill, Bonanza Boy etc
ALmyster4791 5 months ago
French bred horses peak earlier and that is common Knowledge. I never said handicaps dont matter. I have formed my argument about KAUTO and Dessie off level weights. The pinnicle of a horsescareer should be when they compete agains the best off level weights. That is then a fair reflection of their performance. The GC, KG and all the BIG races that attract all the best horses are Group 1s off level weights.
Jamie2462A 5 months ago
@SouthsideofGlasgow - LOL. So why has Denmans best performance been post Heart OP? Figures can be manipulted to get the best results for your argument. As for Alymster - Its not abot how active you are its about how good you are. Kauto strike rate is better than Dessies and he is French Bred so his last 3 on your stats are not a true reflection of him. I think Kauto is finished as a race horse but when he was on form and jumping well i think he has your horses measure. The prosecution now rests
Jamie2462A 5 months ago
@Jamie2462A So wot ur saying is.... Kauto was good for 3 years and cos he's french we should forgive his last year. U know nothing about racing mate if you think the horses Kauto WAS beating 2 seasons ago were better than the 1s Dessie was beating and giving lumps of weight 2.. Name me 3 TOP DRAWER horses he has ever beat.... apart from Denman.
And your earlier comments about handicaps not mattering makes me wonder why Im even bothering with you
ALmyster4791 5 months ago
@Jamie2462A So wot ur saying is.... Kauto was good for 3 years and cos he's french we should forgive his last year. U know nothing about racing mate if you think the horses Kauto WAS beating 2 seasons ago were better than the 1s Dessie was beating and giving lumps of weight 2.. Name me 3 TOP DRAWER horses he has ever beat.... apart from Denman.
And your earlier comments about handicaps not mattering makes me wonder why Im even bothering with you
ALmyster4791 5 months ago
@Jamie2462A And for your information, Denmans best performance was when he won the Gold Cup. That put him onto 182, he only repeated that mark after his op. But hey, in your opinion that doesnt count cos that was in the hennesssy.... and we all know you views on handicaps dont we
ALmyster4791 5 months ago
@ALmyster4791 I have no view on handicaps. I have views on ratings. Denman is a good weight carrying horse and would have galloped Dessie into the ground IMO if they had met in the 08 GC. I just dont see why you guys think KS does not hold a light to Dessie. Kauto has won more GC, same amount of King Georges and beat horses rated in the 180s. For the record i believe Arkles & Flyingbolts rating to be over eggagerated. They probably fit in the same bracket as both Dessie and Kauto.
Jamie2462A 5 months ago
@Jamie2462A Dessie would have destroyed both Kauto and Denman, You could have put Denman on Kauto's back and he still wouldn't have beat Dessie. He was a true weight carrying champion, King GeorgeI remember watching Dessie race in the 89 Victor Chandler Handicap Chase where he took on four rivals, including the top-class Panto Prince and Vodkatini. He gave them 22 pounds and the latter 23 pounds. And got up to win by an head, Both them horses were top class...
ASupremeOwl 3 months ago
@Jamie2462A In Dessie's Gold Cup win he ran on absolutely desperate ground and he hated soft ground but ran up the hill like a true champion hated every yard of the muck, As much as Im a fan of Kauto and Denman only the latter can have some comparison to Dessie IMO. Dessie was pretty similar to Kauto in respect he was quick in his younger days winning a Tingle Creek over 2 miles and then racing in the Champion Chase before upping in trip to win 4 King Georges and a Gold Cup, But he could give...
ASupremeOwl 3 months ago
@Jamie2462A give weight and win. In the 1990 Racing Post Chase, He showed his true ability beating the top class Delius and very good sorts such as Solidasarock and Seagram who all received substantial weight (2 stone plus, over 13 kg, each). One of his best performances and one of the best weight carrying performance since the days of the mighty Arkle. He should be rated as the second greatest of all time IMO, He was a Kauto/Denman rolled into one. A total one off...
ASupremeOwl 3 months ago
@Jamie2462A Kauto as never raced in any big handicaps and would have struggled to give weight all round IMO, Kauto is a great horse but he cannot be compared to Dessie. Dessies CV is far more impressive IMO, 4 King Georges like Kauto, A Gold Cup, Irish Grand National, Tingle Creek, Victor Chandler Chase pretty similar to Kauto's except were is the evidence of Kauto carrying big weights in handicaps? Nowhere...
ASupremeOwl 3 months ago
@ASupremeOwl But you still gotta beat whats in front of you though have you not? and he has already beaten dessies record in the king george now
but dessie is indeed a great horse too but i do like kauto star and if anything i'm glad i'm able to watch him in my lifetime unfortunatly not so with dessie or even redrum
MYBIGKINDHEART 2 months ago
@ASupremeOwl I've never understood the obsession with handicaps at all. Kauto Star would be better than any horse he came up against in them, and if he failed to win it would just be because the handicappers had given the others too little weight to carry.
somerandomer 2 months ago
@somerandomer Thats the whole point of an handicap, To give the best horse in the race the most weight to weaken there chances of winning and the rest an improved chance of winning. When a horse wins off top weight it just shows they have defied the handicapper. Dessie gave lumps of weight away in races and still won, Just like Arkle did all them years ago. Kauto isn't built for handicaps, I don't believe he could have give nearly 2 stone allround in an...
ASupremeOwl 2 months ago
@somerandomer Hennessy Gold Cup like Denman did and still won, His CV of 5 King Georges, 2 Tingle Creeks, 2 Cheltenham Gold Cups, 4 Betfair Chases etc is very impressive. Had he won a few handicaps along the way he would have undoubtedly been the best ever but he hasn't, He couldn't even give weight away to Monet's Garden in the Old Roan...
ASupremeOwl 2 months ago
In my opinion.... Arkle was b4 my time. Dessie is the best Iv seen. Kauto n Denman the best chasers of they're generation, but its not the best era. But they can only beat wots put in front of them. And Kauto cant give away a couple of pounds 2 horses. I believe that Big Bucks is the greatest horse in the past 20 years. But cos he is a hurdeler, he does not get the full credit he deserves, And he never will. Punchestowns, Diamond Harry, Time for Rupert, Mighty Man all ran 2 fences cos of him
ALmyster4791 5 months ago
@SouthsideofGlasgow Good choice; however, where's Arkle in all this?
alieli76 5 months ago
yep dessie beat better horses in his king george wins there was a lot of brilliant horses around in the late 80's and now not so many but credit to kauto star he has beaten good horses easily denman aside,not many horses from the last 5 years at around 3miles will be talked about in 20 years apart from the big 2 from nichols stable(long run is the next 5 years and a lot to prove to be considered a true great
burkhillcomedy 5 months ago
I suggest we agree to disagree. You have your stats to back up Dessie and i have mine to back up Kauto. We are all trying to put our opinions acrossa and we are not going to change each others minds. I am in the Kauto corner as i think he is the classier and more talented animal. The Denman Pre heart op thing is overated. He won the Hennessy in a career best post heart op. People need to understand that he did not go bad overnight. KS beat him fair and sqaure in 09.
Jamie2462A 6 months ago
@Jamie2462A Denman was better b4 his heart problem. Madison De Burles thrashed him at Kempton, and had the beating of him at Aintree b4 he fell. Madison De Burles is a pig . Won a hennesy cos Big Bucks hates fences. Fact is, at 11 Dessie was still at the top of his game, 7 runs at 11 winning a king george, racing post chase and a grand national. Record 1131241 At 12 he was placing giving weight away. Kauto is now going into his 11-12yr old season. Lets c wot he does Record at 11 so far 33P. WOW
ALmyster4791 5 months ago
@Jamie2462A Form of both horses from age 7 (Kautos 1st Gold Cup)
Desert Orchid U232514111131P112232211111111U121113124141323F........ 23 wins from 46 starts
Kauto Star 112111221U1111F133P...... 11 wins from 19 starts. And to be honest, even the biggest of Kauto fans would be hard pushed 2 say they think he can win again more than one more race.
The record speaks for it's self.... the defence rests
ALmyster4791 5 months ago
@ALmyster4791 you say he has only won 11 from 19 and yet at timeform.com it says he has won 23 from 39 races plus six 2nds and four 3rds
and i see with the desert orchid form that you give here that he too didn't have it all his own way either
MYBIGKINDHEART 2 months ago
@Jamie2462A Form of both horses from age 7 (Kautos 1st Gold Cup)
Desert Orchid U232514111131P112232211111111U121113124141323F........ 23 wins from 46 starts
Kauto Star 112111221U1111F133P...... 11 wins from 19 starts. And to be honest, even the biggest of Kauto fans would be hard pushed 2 say they think he can win again more than one more race.
The record speaks for it's self.... the defence rests
ALmyster4791 5 months ago
@ALmyster4791 well let me see he has won his last 2 races since you wrote this comment and beaten a so called good horse of long run too back to back
WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT THEN
MYBIGKINDHEART 2 months ago
@SouthsideofGlasgow My beef isnt with Denman. My point is this guy saying Kauto is better than Dessie. My point being, the horses Dessie was beating, and thrashing, were, in fact, much better than the horses Kauto has been beating. And as you just pionted out, Kauto only beat Denman after his dodgy heart. They are good, but not as good as Dessie. Just look at the oposition
ALmyster4791 6 months ago
Neptune only good in Ireland, Beef couldnt win over here, Dancer (and I loved that horse to bits) was a glorified handicapper. Imperial Commander only ever won twice away from Cheltenham. The point is Kauto and Denman are good horses. But even you have to admit, i n your heart of hearts, neither of them have ever ever beaten anything you could call "top class". The only gold cup winner Kauto ever beat was Imperial Commander who was a bag of shit, and Denman with his dodgy heart.... FACT
ALmyster4791 6 months ago
@ALmyster4791 The only bag of shit here seems to be you and your typical losing punters moans and groans, so let me see then what about long run , not a top class horse then which he clearly is and kauto has finaly beaten him twice now and imperial commander was a good horse too to of won a gold cup race, so you think it's easy to win a gold cup race then do you, you talk a pile of shit
MYBIGKINDHEART 2 months ago
Kauto Star, Denman, Imperial Commander, Beef or Salmon, Exotic Dancer, Neptune Collonges when fit. These horses are gold cup contenders in any era. Now we have Long Run. Llike you said it is all opinions, but firmly in the corner of KS because i believe he is better...around both Cheltenham and Kempton. Its something we will have to differ on. I simply think Kauto goes through the gears and catches Dessie in the last 2 furlongs and beats him around both Chelt and Kemp.
Jamie2462A 6 months ago
My own personal view is that Dessie would have outstayed KS all day. Just my opinion & no not backed by ratings. But isent that why we are all commenting here? Opinion & a love of this great sport?
PunkersTV 6 months ago
@Jamie2462a Listen I'm not here to get into childish squabbles over these superb animals, as some of your text appears to be attempting to provoke. I think KS is a magnificent chaser. Who has he beaten though? Horses like Forgive n Forget, who lined up against Dessie would have exposed KS!! The Thinker was a diamond. Burrough Hill Lad I feel has always been overlooked somewhat. I simply do not believe the in depth quality is in NH presently.
PunkersTV 6 months ago
So you are saying that the Handicapper has got it all wrong? I would suggest he would be in a position to evaluate races and rate them far more accurately than either you or me. Next you will be telling me Dessie gives Kaut a stone and a beating at Kempton. Or maybe even laps Kauto. Kauto is rated higher, has more gold cups and and has beaten horses rated higher than Dessie when in on form. Deal with it. Kauto could have won the KG by 90 lengths and you would still say Dessie wins. 'BLINKERS'
Jamie2462A 6 months ago
@Jamie2462A Please.... go and look back at horse racing from before 2004.
You are obviously brought up in this era of racing, where the horses arnt all that. Kauto, Denmam and Long Run are all very good. Top class, but in a sub standard era for national hunt racing. They have no real oposition.
The depth in class during the 70's and 80's far far better. And you keep mentioning the ratings. Kauto had that huge rating cos he beat Madison De Burles n Racing Deamon for crying out loud. Who are they?
ALmyster4791 6 months ago
Horses from different generations can only be evaluated by what the handicapper deemed fit. Sadly he appears to be getting things increasingly wrong. DM & KS in my opinion rated too high. Weight, age, course, going.All say to me that Dessie had no right to win this GC. Yes Dessie regularly carried lumps of weight but to say he beat average horses is doing some fine steeple chasers a great disservice. A golden period for NH!
PunkersTV 6 months ago
@PunkersTV Could not agree with you more. The golden age of jump racing has been and gone. We may be in a golden age of flat racing (Sea The Stars, Yates, Frankel, Canford Cliffs, Goldikova, Zenyata, Fame And Glory etc), but the jumpers around for the past 5 or 6 years have been pritty average, apart from Kauto, Big Bucks, Denman and Long Run. Hence the stupidly high ratings Kauto n Denman and even Long Run have.... They have beat nothing. Big Bucks is the best around since Dessie
ALmyster4791 6 months ago
This was voted the greatest race of all-time in a poll carried out by racing post.
Its even more special when you listen to the commentary of the late- great Peter Bromley,which is avalible online on RealPlayer;If you have'nt heard his commentary on the race i fully reccomend it to anyone...Spine tingling!!!
stevebenbob 7 months ago
I think we will have to agree to disagree. Kauto not finished out of top 3 when finishing a race. When on his game he was formidable. Im sure you know french horses peak early hence Kauto not producing as a 10 or 11 year old as he did at 7,8 and 9. Dessie beat a not to great horse here and the favourite fell when in with every chance. Nortons coin was not the best but beat Dessie. Kauto V Dessie off LEVEL weights Kauto wins. Dessie beating inferior horses giving weight does not change that.
Jamie2462A 8 months ago
@Jamie2462A the horses Dessie gave weight 2 were better horses than Kauto couldnt give weight 2. Level weights..... Dessie would jump Kauto into the ground. He was faster, stayed further and jumped better
ALmyster4791 7 months ago
@Jamie2462A Dessie was over 14lb inferior on a left handed track....he beat Nortons Coin 30l+ at Kempton!! He would have destroyed Kauto right handed. Kauto Star beat Ashley Brook at levels by a fast diminishing one & half lengths at levels in the Victor Chandler run at Sandown. As a 12 year old Dessie met the future winner & contenders of the Champion Chase when the VC was atop class handicap....Dessie conceded 20lb plus to all his rivals yet was only beat 6 lengths by horses half his age.
foriamonlyahorse11 7 months ago
@Jamie2462A Kauto also lacked guts in a fight. Twice he conceded weight & both times he lost. He was a very smart horse when all was in his favour but frankly Dessie was in another league. Kauto may have had a higher rating at just one point in his career but thats because Phil Smith the handicapper over-rated the Nicholls horse....dropping him 19lb after his hammering in the KG last year, a race won by a true champion in one of the fastest ever times on soft ground.
foriamonlyahorse11 7 months ago
The Greatest steeplechaser of all time!! To win over three miles round a left handed course, beating the mud loving Yahoo after being previously regarded as a 2 miler was absolutely phenomenal!! R.I.P Dessie much loved never forgotten.
Jhayter999 10 months ago
Kauto is rated better than Dessie for a reason. In the 2 biggest races of the year his stats out do Dessie. Here are KS stats for the 2006 KG all the way to the 2011 GC. Only the KG and GC are in the stats. 1112111F33. What are Dessies?
Jamie2462A 10 months ago
@Jamie2462A 12111313F. Kauto 6 wins from 10.... Dessie 5 from 9.
Bear in mind tho.... Dessie never ran in a Gold Cup untill the age of 10. In 83 runnings of the race, only 7 winners have been aged over 10. Kauto won his 1st at 7 then at 9. He stopped on the hill at 10 and was a spent force in the King Keorge.
So, the real reason Kauto is rated higher than Dessie is because he has thrashed rubbish horses. 35L winner of a KG beating Madison Du Berlais, Barbers Shop and Nacarat. Please
ALmyster4791 8 months ago
Thank you for posting this and Thank You Dessie. God, he was amazing. I've just watched it five times and each time I'm laughing and crying before the end. His FACE! He's so intelligent, so sensitive and all teh time thinking and communcating, with hs jockey, the other horses and the world around. So graceful, strong, brave, and always kind.
Katencantada 10 months ago
"Dessie has done it"!
TheWhitehall 11 months ago
I read dessie's book,it is a great experience,as you know everything that goes on,HE IS A GREAT RACEHORSE and will live on,im sure of it!
HannahK6293 11 months ago
r@foriamonlyahorse re Dessie in the Victor Chandler. I do recall it. Quite unbievable the lumps of weight that horse carried. He was all heart determination and character. I mean this Gold cup! He hated the course he loathed the mud yet look at him charge up that hill!!!!
PunkersTV 11 months ago 5
@PunkersTV I was only 7 yet this still remains the greatest horse and greatest race of my generation! KS couldn even lace denmans boots never mind dessie!! Im sure most of you have seen the painting of dessie with red rum and arkle, try replacing dessie with KS it would look like a p**s take! And that for me says it all " those on the painting were and still are THE 3 legends of racing!!!
cloughy82 6 months ago
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@PunkersTV I was only 7 yet this still remains the greatest horse and greatest race of my generation! KS couldn even lace denmans boots never mind dessie!! Im sure most of you have seen the painting of dessie with red rum and arkle, try replacing dessie with KS it would look like a p**s take! And that for me says it all " those on the painting were and still are THE 3 legends of racing!!!
cloughy82 6 months ago
@foriamonlyahorse Absolutly spot on. You echo my thoughts exactly. Excellent post!
PunkersTV 11 months ago
He's my godfather.........HERO.
tombutterwick123 11 months ago
Comment removed
tombutterwick123 11 months ago
Desert Orchid carried 12 stone in the victor Chandler Chase and still beat the very classy Panto Prince. Kauto Star great horse But not in the same league as Dessie in my opinion.
PunkersTV 11 months ago
@PunkersTV I just read a list of the ten best horses ever and they're all American. Is American racing a better standard? I've always thought the gold cup and the grand national were the biggest races but then i would say that.
chatsworth1buccaneer 11 months ago
@chatsworth1buccaneer I have seen some american racing.and they have produced some quality. For me personally NH in the UK is unrivaled because you develope a relationship with the horse that returns season after season. My personal favourite Race Horses of all time...no particular order... Forgive n Forget, Desert Orchid, Best Mate and Burrough Hill lad. Now that would be some match up.!
PunkersTV 11 months ago
@chatsworth1buccaneer The Cheltenham Gold Cup is THE blue chip Race Horse in the racing world. The Grand National not so much. Popular but you do not get the very best grade 1 horses often enough. Great spectacle however.
PunkersTV 11 months ago
@PunkersTV Something people forget is that Dessie carried 12 stone as a 12 year old in the Victor Chandler. He was beaten just 6l conceding 20lb plus to no less than Blitzreig, Katabatic & Young Snugfit...all tip top champion chase class two milers of their era!! I remember Kauto Star beating useful Ashley Brook over two miles at Sandown by a fast diminishing 1 1/2l at level weights...enough said!!
foriamonlyahorse11 11 months ago
what a champ
DemonChinChilla355 1 year ago
Most emotional gold cup EVER !!!
marktattters 1 year ago 9
I have just realised that Kauto Star has had a form rating of 191. I simply cannot work this out as Dessie's highest was 188. There is NO WAY ON GOD'S EARTH that KS was better than Dessie! That is laughable!!! Dessie could run top class from 2m right up to 3m 5fl at very heavy weights against TOP CLASS opposition. KS can't do this and never has!
aquamarineeyes 1 year ago
@aquamarineeyes The ratings that especially Nicholls horses have been given are very suspect indeed. 1833 rated 159 JOKE (8lb higher than Denman at same stage of career) - The Nightingale rated 167 JOKE - Kauto Star actually rated 193 JOKE (now dropped to 174) - Imperial Commander 185 JOKE !! When you look at all time greats like Pearlyman 172, Best Mate 179 & Barnbrook Again 172 it shows something has gone awry with Mr. Smiths handicapping skills!!!!!!!
foriamonlyahorse11 11 months ago
@foriamonlyahorse11 Couldnt agree more. High ratings for beating complete dross. How Imperial Commander got 2 within 2lbs of Dessie is beyond me. He only ever won ONE of the championship races.
And Kauto, as good as he was, wasnt beating anything decent. In 10 years time, will they still be talking about Our Vic , Madison Du Berlais (crap horse that got lucky twice), Exotic Dancer (couldnt cut it at top level). I doubt it. Yet we still hear of The Fellow, Charter Party, Wayward Lad etc
ALmyster4791 8 months ago
@ALmyster4791 Thats exactly right. The exact same thing happened in Arkles era. Three horses dominated: Arkle, Flying Bolt & Mill House. These were so much better than the previous generation that the handicapper went OTT. No horse has got near them in 50 years which proves there was a grave error of judgement. Yes they were great horses but no better than Dessie. The handicapper got carried away again with KS, Denman & IC. Now Long Run has smashed them all into oblivion is he to be rated 250?
foriamonlyahorse11 8 months ago
If ever a horse deserved to win a Gold Cup its Desert Orchid
Jonboy176 1 year ago 2
In my opinion, I think Dessie preferred right-handed courses like Sandown, Ascot and Kempton?
Because it was said that he hated Cheltenham, backed up by the fact that his record at courses like Kempton were substantially better than when he ran at Cheltenham.
thisiswho2 1 year ago
@thisiswho2
It is widely accepted that Desert Orchid was about 16lb inferior on a left handed track. The runner up in this race was beaten 16l in the King George thus this adds weight to that theory. If it were not for that then Desert Orchid would have won 3 Gold Cups, 2 Champion Chases & an Arkle along with his 4 King Georges. The handicapper would have surely had Dessie rated in excess of 200 as a result.
Could anyone seriously see Kauto Star giving like of Delius 2 stone & a beating?
foriamonlyahorse1 1 year ago 2
@saintaddison yeah found it on bbc website. Thanx tho
ALmyster947 1 year ago
@saintaddison found it
ALmyster947 1 year ago
@saintaddison I want it please. Is that the 1 where he sounds totaly gutted 2 out cos he thinks Dessie is beat?
I would love that. How can I get it please?
ALmyster947 1 year ago
Kauto star*
dailystar1 1 year ago
For me dessie is better than kauri star...giving 22lb to panto prince over 2 miles 12 stone to victory in an Irish national are 2 that stand out
dailystar1 1 year ago 2
@dailystar1 Don't forget his win in arguably the finest ever renewal of the Racing Post Chase. Dessie, who was 11 at the time, carried 12st 3lb & conceded 2st to Martel Chase runner up, Delius, a feat the handicapper described as ''impossible''. The 3rd horse Seagram was beaten 19l receiving a COLOSSAL 35lb !!!!! Seagram won the following years National, beating an above average Gold cup winner 5l receiving just 5lb!!!!
Kauto Star only just managed to concede 10lb to handicapper Lami by a SH
foriamonlyahorse1 1 year ago
@foriamonlyahorse1 Couldnt agree with you more. Garrison Savannah beat The Fellow in the gold cup in 1991 with Dessie in 3rd (at the age of 12) and TWO other Cheltenham Gold Cup winners behind him. That gold cup 2 me is hugely over looked as 1 of the best of all time. You also had Party Polotics, Kildimo, Arctic Call, Carrick Hill Lad, Yahoo, Celtic Shot, Nick The Brief.... all Graded Chase winners or winners of the top handicaps in a golden era for jump racing IMO. Kauto has never done that
ALmyster947 1 year ago
@ALmyster947 Yes, Dessie was past his best when he was 3rd, however it was a gutsy effort when looking placed seemed an impossibility. The real measure of Dessie was that he gave 35lb & 19l beating to Seagram whereas Garrison Savanah was beaten by Seagram conceding just 5lb.
I get sick of the Nicholls sycophant club brown nosing away re. Kauto & Denman. Desert Orchid would have jumped fragile KS into the ground & plodder Denman wouldn't see which way Dessie went on a RH track!!
foriamonlyahorse1 1 year ago
@foriamonlyahorse1 Kauto is a top horse in an average era, and unfortunatly will never have fully proved himself.Just look at the KG last year, beating horses 36l shows just how poor his oposition is.Denman is, IMO, a glorified handicapper,a top 1 by all means,but again against average horses. I personaly dont think Kauto would have won a Gold Cup had he been around in Best Mates day.
Simple fact,Dessie beat good horses all the time giving weight. Kautos rating is high against average performers
ALmyster947 1 year ago
@ALmyster947 I think the handicapper needs to reassess the whole form thing using race times/conditions. When you look at Arkles rating he allegedly could give Desert Orchid two stone which is crap!!
I agree with you regard Best Mate. That horse has incredibly come in for some flak on here yet in this third Gold Cup win he was practically bumped off his feet at a crucial moment yet still was able to quicken & dig in up the hill. I know on Nicholls FB page some idiots think KS will be back!
foriamonlyahorse1 1 year ago
@foriamonlyahorse1 He certainly looked an old tired horse yesterday, but I hear he had a small bleed after the race, either way 9-2 for the gold cup, I'll probly take a bit of that haha.
Agree with you on the handicapper point. Horses rating are going up stupidly for baeting nothing much. The horses Kauto has beaten, compared 2 wot Dessie beat giving lumps away, well its different ball games. Nothing Kauto has beat has achived anything, bat Commander.
Arkle was way b4 my time, so no comment haha
ALmyster947 1 year ago
@ALmyster947 Thats only because Commander made two howlers & that course would never suit an outright stayer like IC. I thought KS was tens for the GC? He'd have no chance in my opinion...they don't often comeback...once they are gone they are gone.
foriamonlyahorse1 1 year ago
@foriamonlyahorse1 I think Nicholls is bang out of form at the moment and Kauto had a small bleed. I wouldnt write him totally off just yet.
Thing is tho, he isnt cutting it as an 11 year old, he runs 3 times a year at level weights against average opposition. Dessie would laugh at such a career. Any1 who thinks Kauto is a better horse than Desert Orchid is a clown that knows nothing about horse racing.
5 in a row.... your having a laugh. All hail king Desert Orchid.... a champion of champions
ALmyster947 1 year ago
@ALmyster947 That may be the case but it has emerged that Long Run won that race in 6m 3s, an absolutely amazing time considering the soft ground!!!! The bleed may have been as a result of his crashing through the fence after he was already well beaten off...seems the Nicholls stable are already seeking excuses to justify sending KS into one last Gold Cup battle. I fear the worse for the horse (KS)...even the handicapper has dropped him 19lb in his assessment this year due to his rapid decline!!
foriamonlyahorse1 1 year ago
Thats got to be the best feeling in the world!!!
coolsdon 1 year ago
some deluded folk on here
dessie beat kauto at level weights? sorry but whos has the higher rating? if dessie is better why doesnt he have a higher rarting? maybe its dessie that beat donkeys?
you guys are clearly bias dessie fans.
TissuePrices 1 year ago
@TissuePrices Dessie beat Yahoo 16l in the King George yet only edges him out at Cheltenham? Dessie was 14lb inferior left handed & this affected his rating of 187 v 191 KS. Kauto only just, shd, gave 10lb to Lami, a half decent handicapper. Dessie conceded 2 stone to top class Delius & even more to top class handicappers. Kauto has been wrapped up in cotton wool throughout his career, Dessie wasn't ever. Ratings do not take into account a horses courage. Dessie would have broken Kauto in two!!
foriamonlyahorse1 1 year ago
@TissuePrices It is you who is deluded. Kauto once again has little opposition in the KG this year with only babies Burton Port, Riverside Theatre & Long Run offering some kind of opposition. KS & Denman dominated in an era where quality staying chasers are thin on the ground. The first time either met a good one in the Gold Cup (Imperial Commander) they both got hammered!!!!
foriamonlyahorse1 1 year ago
@TissuePrices You really live in a dream world. I feel for you. You must have only been following racing for 2 years. Horses have bigger ratings these days than they should cos they r beating average horses. The golden age of jump racing has been and gone. Kauto would have been in the thick of it, but the fact he cant give weight 2 Monets Garden and Our Vic says it all. Dessie beat far superior horses than that giving alot more weight. You probly think Kauto would beat Arkle
ALmyster947 1 year ago
@ALmyster947
there is no point debating with the blind
any racing exerpt will tell u kauto is better then denman
u go on about carrying weight, he doesnt run handicaps, for the top horese they are a thing of the past, its all about grade 1s, weak era? this is prob the strongest era of chasers, its kauto and to lesser extent denman are so far ahead of the rest.
kauto would beat dessie by atleast 10lengths
TissuePrices 1 year ago
@TissuePrices I think you are about 14 years old with a racing knowlage of the past 2 years. This is 1 of the weakest 3m+ Chase eras in many years. You have Kauto, Denman and.... well no1 else. Imperial Comander can only win at Cheltenham unless he races a bunch of pigs. Are you really saying Long Run is top class? Madison Du Berlais? Snoopy Loopy? Notre Pere? Rambling Minster? Tartak? Ollie Magern? Racing Demon? Monkerhostin ? Turpin Green? L'Ami? Kingscliff? My Will? That is the level 2 beat
ALmyster947 1 year ago
His beating of Panto Prince in the Victor Chandler, giving away 22lb over an inadequate 2 miles was simply extraordinary. No horse since has been tested in such a way. The fact that he could then go on and win the Gold Cup in desperate ground going left handed sealed his immortality for me
ASupremeOwl 1 year ago
@ASupremeOwl I agree with you on every point bar Denman. I do beleive that both 100% fit and well Kauto would give Denman a beating.
But this muppet trying 2 say Kauto would beat Dessie is in another world. Dessie gave a beating 2 Panto Prince, Pegwell Bay, Kildimo, THE FELLOW for goodness sakes. There is nothing Kauto is beating. No horse Kauto has beat has ever held its form, bar Exotic Dancer.
He beats these horses easy enough, so he is a great horse, no doubting that. But hes 5 lths off Des
ALmyster947 1 year ago
Kauto Star is a good racehorse but not in the league of Dessie. Kauto couldn't even give a stone to Monets Garden but Dessie gave a 1 and half stone away to Panto's Prince a multi grade one winner and still beat him and two stone to everyone in the Racing Post chase. Theres only Denman who would attempt that in this day and age. For as good as Kauto is hes been wrapped in cotton wool all his career. I still think Master Minded is the best horse Clive Smith owns...
ASupremeOwl 1 year ago
@ASupremeOwl I agree with that. Master Minded is a better horse than KS. The 3 mile ranks have been weak since the demise of Best Mate. There are normally a host of good Irish 3M chasers but these have not emerged either. Denman & Kauto have had it easy up until last year. Beating 150 rated handicappers hollow in the King George is hardly that impressive. Dessie beat 160+ chasers in the Racing Post chase conceding beating 28 & 35lb, defying an 'impossible task' according to the Official H/Capper
foriamonlyahorse1 1 year ago
There really is no discusion here. Kauto is beating a bunch of average performers rated FAR 2 high off of level weights. HE CANT GIVE WEIGHT AWAY. Dessie would give weight 2 proven horses 4-5 times a year and thrash them in2 the ground. Kauto is the best around during an average time for jump racing. He is no doubt a class act, and would have given Dessie a right good race, but his Jumping is 2 suspect. If he tryd 2 stand off outside the wings upsides Dessie, he'd b sniffing on landing
ALmyster947 1 year ago
There isn't enough Desert Orchid on YT. I'm an Irishman and totally infected with the Arkle, Captain Christy , Monksfield, Dawn Run and Istabraq bugs. Of English-trained stars I was immune to the Best Mate bug, fairly immune to Kauto Star, a fair bit susceptible to Denman -I'll probably succumb if he wins another Gold Cup -but I'm an emotional wreck looking at videos of Desert Orchid and Red Rum. Desert Orchid was a weight carrier and that alone puts him closer to Arkle than most in my book.
alipitogen 1 year ago
I remember Kauto Star just beating Lami who received just 10lb. Lami was a mere handicapper & out of form at the time. Kauto is not capable of giving weight. We have had only one good 3 mile chaser join Kauto & Denman in the last 3 or 4 years & that's Imperial Commander & looked what happened in the Gold Cup!! Now with babies Diamond Harry & especially Burton Point on the scene things should hot up.
foriamonlyahorse1 1 year ago
wow! who'd of thought that he would get up to rally and win this race
what a horse
just as good as redrum
MYBIGKINDHEART 1 year ago
i have blinkers on...apparently!
Nonsense to suggest Kauto Star would 'destroy' Dessie...
timalloybhoy 1 year ago
kauto would destory dessy, anyone who cant see that has got blinkers on
TissuePrices 1 year ago
@TissuePrices You are talking shite pal. Dessie would have jumped Kauto into the ground. All Kauto has beaten in his King Georges are handicappers & the odd grade two horse.
Dessie gave 2 stone & 8l beating going away to top class Delius in Racing Post Chase. The third Seagram, in the form of his life, was beaten 16l receiving 2st 7lb!!! Seagram then won the National receiving just 5lb from the Gold Cup winner! dessie was at least a stone wrong at Cheltenham...add 14 to his 187 o/rating!!!!
foriamonlyahorse1 1 year ago
@foriamonlyahorse1
whats dessie highest rating? nowhere near kauto
kauto destroyed madison de berlais a grade one winner, kauto has beaten them, im sory dessit was good but hes a level below kauto
its fact that this current era of chasing is prob the strongest ever, and kauto is right at the top of the list
TissuePrices 1 year ago
@TissuePrices
Desert Orchid was rated 187. Kauto Star is 191. However, Dessie's rating also included his below par performances at Cheltenham. He beat the same horse, grade one winner Yahoo, by a going away 16 lengths at Kempton, with a great grade one winner in second (Barnbrook Again). Despite all being in Yahoo's favour he still beats him at Cheltenham. Allow for the 14lb he ran below form on left handed tracks he could have been rated in excess of 200.
Some people have short memories.
foriamonlyahorse1 1 year ago
@TissuePrices
Beating 150 rated chasers by 30 lengths in the King George is no big deal & is what should be expected by a 180 + rated chaser. Dessie beat 160+ rated chasers giving them lumps of weight in top HANDICAPS not to mention facing top class fields of grade one & two chasers in his King George wins.
Madison De Berlais, hardly the most consistent yard stick, was second to Kauto only a couple of lengths in front of a 152 horse, wouldnt have got near Dessie even with just ten stone!
foriamonlyahorse1 1 year ago
@foriamonlyahorse1
come on fella your in a very small minority if u think dessie is in kauto league
im 100% convinced kauto would beat dessie on any ground any distance, kauto is far superior.
kauto has beaten them all, and is the most consistant of horese regualrly scoring 170+
TissuePrices 1 year ago
@TissuePrices
Small minority? I don't think so. When has Kauto Star given top class handicappers weight & a beating? Never, why because it is been proven as beyond him. Kauto is consistent because he is wrapped up in proverbial cotton wool!! Dessie took on all races over all trips 2m to 3m 5f at tracks he loved & hated carrying upto 12stone 4pound vs the best around including greats like Barnbrook Again.
If Dessie handled left handed tracks he would have been rated at or around 200.
foriamonlyahorse1 1 year ago
@TissuePrices
I am not doubting his greatness. Okay, he is no where near as tough as Des or Arkle. However his 2009 Gold Cup win was amazing & for me his best ever performance bang there with Dessies Racing Post Chase win under 12st 2lb.
I just feel had these two ever met at Kempton Dessies jumping would have had Kauto in real trouble. Let's not forget horses are herding animals & like 'sheep' they tend to follow. Had Kauto tried to follow Dessies jumps he'd come a cropper at one stage.
foriamonlyahorse1 1 year ago
@TissuePrices Who has Kauto ever beaten. Please name me 1 decent horse he has ever given weight to. I was a big Exotic Dancer fan, but his buble seemed 2 pop after his 2nd big season. Dessie beat top horses giving upto 2 stone 3-4 times a year. Kauto (and Im a Kauto fan, he's the best around just now) cant even give horses rated 15lbs inferior 2 him a stone, and he runs 3 times a year. Fact is, horses these days, for wotever reason, have higher ratings than they deserve. Kauto isnt beating much
ALmyster947 1 year ago
@ALmyster947
what nonesense, kauto doesnt run handicaps, racing as moved on, its not about handicaps, its all about grade 1s, and just look at kauto record.
you say who has kauto beaten? hes beaten everyones put infront of him.
Kauto is simpy the best, dont think another horse has done so much for racing as kauto
for conclusive proof of who the beat horse is please refer to the offical ratings, kauto differnt gravy.
kauto would be fave to beat dessie in grade 1 and u know it
TissuePrices 1 year ago
@TissuePrices Do you know anything about racing or do you just watch it for the pritty colours they wear? They were going 2 run him in this years Hennessy. They dont run him in handicaps, cos he cant give weight away, never has never will.
He is doing a great job I agree. But top rated horses have ratings higher than they diserve. Kauto has beaten average horses on level weights, n ame 1 GREAT horse. As much as I love Kauto, he has never fully proved himself.... Arkle n Dessie gave weight away
ALmyster947 1 year ago
@ALmyster947
he didnt run in hennesy cos it would have interferred with his king george prep which just happens to b the bigger race
he beat denman, hes beaten them all, and all distances, all tracks
TissuePrices 1 year ago
@TissuePrices My point is they WERE thinking about it. So they DO consider running him in handicaps
ALmyster947 1 year ago
@TissuePrices You muppet. Kauto is nowhere near as good as Dessie. When as Kauto ever run an handicap and given weight away? He hasn't because he wouldn't handle it. Dessie would destroy Kauto and thats a fact...
ASupremeOwl 1 year ago
@TissuePrices You clearly have no idea about racing so why anyone is bothering to acknowledge you is beyond Me. Dessie off even weights would destroy Kauto your in the small minority of idiots who think Kauto is anywhere near as good as Dessie. Kauto as beat very average horses all his career. Denman on his day off level weights is the best of the two in Nicholls yard. End of story. Dessie a true true legend
ASupremeOwl 1 year ago
Amazing! And he wasn't even stoutly bred. A big horse for the big races with a truly big big heart.
shanklypaisleyrafa 1 year ago
The horse fancied himself as a bit of a playboy in his day, but today he was asked the most serious questions of his racing life. Man up or move over. He showed today he lay down for no horse. It was a brutal day.
sleeplessinsale 1 year ago
That horse was an absolute warrior, I was only a kid when it was riding use to get my dad to put put 50p e/w on :))
Great memories.
Vincent777Legion1 1 year ago
one word .... "LEGEND"
harrington78 1 year ago
Great race.
Do you have Dessie winning the Regal Chase (Totesport Bowl) at Aintree in 1988?
gurgless 1 year ago
hmmmm...... I wonder where the white horse is in a the brownies....
TheWhisperWolf 1 year ago
desert orchid and red rum best english race horses gone :( R.I.P you stars xx
emmhorse 1 year ago 6
@emmhorse You can add Dancing Brave with them 2 legends my friend.
watfordtripod 1 year ago
@watfordtripod haha i dont think ive heard of him :/
emmhorse 1 year ago
@emmhorse I think u will find that Red Rum was bred in Rossenarra stud in Kells, County Meath, IRELAND not England......
irishjig123 8 months ago
@irishjig123 Ah yes,wouldn't be the same without some oirish prick sticking his oar in something that doesn't concern him !!
marmaduke9 8 months ago
So So brave he was, I was right by the winning post that day, and will never forget a guy climbin the fence, pumping with emotion shouting take that you critics!!!,, a great day it was
MrTinlizzy 1 year ago
Legendary though Dessie rightly is, my favourite thing about this clip is the crowd noise throughout - at every fence and at the finish line. Fantastic stuff.
faulknmd 1 year ago
voted the greatest race ever...and rightly so. vintage n.h racing days before all these soft conditions races were introduced. tingle creeks and v.c chases were h'caps and rightly so. true warriors carrying welter burdens. thats why to me denman is a greater horse than kauto. but thats just my opinion.
greggles1902 1 year ago
Compare and contrast with the huge roar of silence that greeted the winner the following year.
21shergar 1 year ago
@grincher2006 I agree with you except the 2 comments about Dessie not staying & going left-handed. Remember he won the Whitbread the year before over 3m 5f and he had already won at Aintree previously, so those 'ghosts' had already been buried.
XLadyClaireX 1 year ago
@XLadyClaireX Dessie did win left handed at Aintree (soft four runner race) but Aintree & Cheltenham are chalk & cheese thus require different attributes. Speed & stamina respectively. Ironically, despite being clearly 10lb to a stone inferior at Cheltenham, Dessie never finished out of the first three in any of his six chases at Cheltenham, a measure of his courage & class (3rd Arkle, 3rd Champion Chase x2, 3rd Gold Cup x2 & Gold Cup winner). A truly great horse.
foriamonlyahorse11 1 year ago
The greatest jump racehorse ever. Just breathtaking to watch...
MDreadedTV 1 year ago
This video is magic, i have watched it well over a 100 times, and every time i think there is no way dessie can get up there, but he obv does haha, and the commentary is awesome aswell, RIP Dessie
x
DukeStreetDessie 1 year ago
The line "He's beginning to get up" by O'Sulivan sends shivers down the spine. Dessie hates Cheltenham, hated the going but had the talent and heart to win this. Great great horse and up there with the best of them.
mallafets 1 year ago
Brilliant commentary as ever by the great Peter O'Sullevan.
I know that Desert Orchid met Red Rum. I wonder if that momentous event was ever filmed?
cbak12sg 1 year ago
Dessie and Rummy are the 2 greatest race horces ever in my opinion, with maybe Arkle a distant third.
Phoenix8049 2 years ago
i dont know anything about racing or what makes horses great, all i know is i love this race. Such guts and determination from my favourite horse ever. Maybe not the best ever but my favourite anyway. The commentary is just sublime. Right at the end. "Dessie has done it." Even the commentator refers to him by his nickname. It just shows you how much Dessie was loved by all.
multipleman78 2 years ago
dessie legend...kauto legend..istabraq legend.. arkle super legend...watchh out for dunguib!
irishbraq 2 years ago
@irishbraq you spot on loved dessie ,dunguib looks a superstar lets hope he romps in at cheltenham.
davidandrew66 2 years ago
Also.... in regards 2 "Yahoo never won a race after this gold cup".... wot bout the martell cup at Aintree 2 weeks later. I do love Kauto, but the simple fact is, he has tried, and faild, to give weight away to lesser horses then Dessie did. Dessie was churned out 6-7 times a season, giving weight away reguarly, and never ran a bad race. Racin is very different now days. Horses have higher ratings than I believe they should have. Kauto IS great, but he isnt beating anything special
ALmyster947 2 years ago 8
@ALmyster947 I thoroughly agree with your comments. Kauto is a great Horse but in truth he has only beat handicappers in his King George wins. That said the manner of his wins suggest he would have given Dessie plenty to think about. Dessie though was very successful at conceeding lumps of weight. He was never wrapped in cotton wool & was pitched against the best often given them 2 stone, occasionally more (gave 35lb & 19l beating to future National winner Seagram). A truly great horse.
foriamonlyahorse11 1 year ago
ibane.... there was 2 Grand National winners in the race, and the hadicapers you refer 2 won the big hadicaps, not sum micky mouse race round Ludlow. At the end of it all, and I am a big Kauto fan, but who has Kauto ever beaten? The horses around, Kauto aside, are VERY average. Dessie, if you look thu his races, beat several Gold Cup n King George winners. I take your point bout this being a slog. But if you are really telling me Kauto would have beaten him this day.... you dont know racing....
ALmyster947 2 years ago
ibane i agree but dessie hated left handed courses its a fact he was stones better going right handed.that day cheltemham was a mud bath yahoo was a mud lover but the old fella got up i dont think kauto would have given the likes of panto prince 2 stone plus over 2 miles and beat them sandown and kempton were dessies courses and there he was unbeatable and the weight he used to give away can only be matched by arkle so thats says it all
straywolf69 2 years ago 2
Dessie would roust Kauto and Denman I recon. Kauto couldnt give a stone 2 Monets Garden. But Dessie gave over a stone and a half 2 Panto Prince (a mutli winner) and 2 stone to the whole field in the Racing Post Chase. You wouldnt get that now days
ALmyster947 2 years ago
@ALmyster947 desert orchid was a great horse round kempton,even would have arkle off the bit at kempton.but this gold cup was a bunch of handicapers.yahoo never won a race after this gold cup,ten plus was a up n coming horse who was still going ok when falling in this race and sadly had to be put down.desert orchid reminds me of wayward lad,a legend round kempton but didnt take to well to cheltenham,for that reason id rate kauto star more than dessie
ibanez777vbk 2 years ago
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jafeica 2 years ago
He may not have liked Cheltenham but still placed in two high class Champion Chases. He won this Gold Cup in his first attempt in the race aged 10! His 3rd place the following year came less than a month after a stunning Racing Post win and a month later he won the Irish National. He was 12 when 3rd in 1991. Had he run in a GC at a younger age rather than in the Champion he may well have won 3.KS was visually taking in this year's KG but lofty figure is not justified on form of 2nd to 4th..
jafeica 2 years ago
@jafeica some of those horses you mentioned were rather poor bonanza boy only won welsh national carvills hill won nowt the thinker won gold cup but never won a race after.west tip won national but was buthchered in high class races.desert orchid was overated great round kempton but thats it.
ibanez777vbk 2 years ago
@ALmyster947 ...absolutely will never forget the battle with panto prince or pegwell bay, no horse will ever be able to produce the gutsy weight carrying performances that dessie did.
TheColeman1981 1 year ago
My fav thing about this is the crowd when they jump the last. Listen how loud it is on the run up, then it builds as they get 2 the fence, but as they jump it goes really quiet in anticipation. And then when they land the roar starts again and builds in 3 steps, when they get 2 the bottom of the hill.... when he starts drifting over.... and when he kicks clear.
Wot a race. Legend.
ALmyster947 2 years ago
'He's beginning to get up!' race of the century. If you look closely at 1:07 you can see dessie's head move and a wee brief expression of glee when he knew he had Yahoo. That horse knew what he was on the course to do. Legend
Dilupist1 2 years ago
Still puts a lump in my throat watching that
kickonmyson 2 years ago
absolutely!amazing scenes!
ilikewavingatbuses 2 years ago