It would be like seeing a baby drown in a mud puddle and saying "hey, I didn't put the baby there. It's not my fault" and just walk away. Big deal if it's not your fault. THAT ISN'T THE ISSUE!
Personal Responsibility has nothing to do with accounting causation and fault.
We have our sinner father, Adam. And he is the cause of our sin. His Sin, with a capital S, is imputed on to us and we ratify it by partaking. But just because we have identified the cause of WHY we sin, doesn't mean that we are absolved of Personal Responsibility.
Personal Responsibility is your present duty to respond. The cause of the problem is irrelevant.
One important point about Personal Responsibility (PR). A prostitute may say "well, my father molested me, that's why I'm a prostitute." And indeed, that may all be true. That indeed, the CAUSE of her immoral behavior may be her father. But just because that is the CAUSE, doesn't mean that she doesn't have personal responsibility to break that chain of cause/effect in her life. CAUSE really isn't the issue for PR.
Let me clarify a little bit. When we say that Joe has a personal responsibility, we don't mean that he is required to make a galaxy before lunch today. We aren't speaking of responsibility as a comparative to God.
But when we speak of sin, we are comparing ourselves to God's holiness. We fall hopelessly short and need a Savior.
when we talk about personal responsibility, we ask what affirmative actions are required? Omitting to act is a sin, so HOW MUCH action must we perform? When we speak of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY it seems like a construct RELATIVE TO FELLOW MAN.
When we speak of our sin, our powerlessness to make ourselves anew (change) we are speaking in a construct RELATIVE TO GOD, OUR MAKER. Our sin is compared to His holiness.
Calvinism/Doctrines of Grace/Reformed Theology are from the pit of Hell.....they are heresies that make God Almighty a sinner and not just a sinner but the Author of ALL sin.
Every child raped....every women beaten...every person murdered...every deceitful business deal...every cruelty man has done, was authored by God. It is a blasphemous false religion and many otherwise fine Bible teachers are promoting it today. MacArthur, Sproul, Piper, are some of them. Flee and Repent of Calvinism!!
Piper also conjoins sovereignty (which is dominion, an attribute) and predestination (which is preplanning, an action). Most Calvinists make this same error. Absolute predestination requires absolute sovereignty, but absolute sovereignty does not require absolute predestination. Piper erroneously believes in the absolute predestination of ALL things. This fixes many theological issues in the Calvinistic system, but has the fatal flaw of making God the author of sin; secondary causes or no.
Piper sees no distinction between the voice of the Son of God, and the voice of a preacher. There is a difference between God saying,"Let there be light," Moses writing, "Let there be light," and a man preaching that the bible says, "let there be light." The first instance alone created LIGHT, the latter two only the light of information. "Search the scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life, and they are they which testify of me." (John 5:39) Christ imparts life, not preachers.
God is in control and the creator of all things both good and evil. the reason evil exists is so that glory for God can exist. Would we ever know what being righteous is if we never knew evil?? (Romans 9:22)
Its interesting...people dont think a loving God could elect or choose...yet Ephesians says "IN LOVE HE PREDESTINED US"...Armenians...use your head and read the Word. That is all.
"To put the name free will on it doesn't work, it doesn't supply any explanatory power." In this case, most theologians say things that don't work, but especially Piper. His concepts of the Word, Goodness, Sovereignty, decrees, etc ultimately provide NO satisfactory explanatory power. They just look like a thin gossamer of utterances designed to provoke emotional responses in the listeners.
Sure, in this video he didn't explain those things. That would have taken a mighty long time. But he does absolutely explain these Biblically on his church's website.
I think Piper's statement saying that he would die for the belief of God being ultimately in control is exactly what the problem is with Reformed theology. I believe it is people like this that hold their theology up as more precious than truth. Reformed Theology is literally the reason why Atheism exists, I believe. Atheists believe we're so stupid. We say God is in control, then we also say He is a God of Love. So God is in control of the 5 year old getting rapped 10 times a day in Thailand?
Actually Atheists bash on any kind of Christian especially those who say God isn't in control. They will tell you if God is good then why does He allow disease, disasters, etc.? God takes credit for many tragedies in the Bible. God DOES NOT cause that child to be raped but He is sovereign over it. He could prevent it. The rapist will still be punished unless he repents and believes the Gospel. Nothing shocks God. You have no idea how much worse earth would be without God being sovereign.
@ChristianReformed Atheists bash them more because there are more of them then ever, cause Reformed Theo is dying. It's old man theology. You know what's funny about the word sovereign in the dictionary? It says nothing about one having 'control'. It talks about having complete authority but not having control. Best example. You have a riot going on in the streets and have a police officer in the center of it. He has all authority over the riot but he doesn't have control. Same thing with God..
@MissedTheMark I don't even have to be Reformed at all to believe God is more Sovereign than the way you just described it. The Bible makes that much clear.
@ChristianReformed God's not in control, because he chose not be. He is only in control when his people pray, then He takes control of a situation. It doesn't make God anyless powerful. He is all powerful. He could control everything, He just chooses not to in this system that He created because He wants humanity to have a choice.. It's very simple to understand..
@MissedTheMark No, the problem with that analogy is that it makes God impotent. A police officer did not create the people in the crowd. God did. The computer programmer analogy works better, because the programmer actually created the software, but he's not actually controlling every movement his RTS soldiers make.
No analogy will be perfect. But some are worse than others.
@dougmoerhoffman It's irrelevant whether God created people or not. What is relevant is the system God made for the people after they were created. God created a system in which he wanted humanity to have autonomy. The way He chose to go about it was to restrict himself from micro-managing, for the purpose of His desire to become reality, by giving humanity the ability to chose Him or not. The idea of God not being able to make a creation self-operating diminishes God's power and ability.
Acts 17:24-28 "God...gives to all life, breath, and all things. And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and have our being,"
@dougmoerhoffman This an easy one to argue.. God had a determined Abraham's dwelling. Abraham could chosen not to believe God and follow His direction, fortunately he did. "By faith (Not by God's control or micro-managing) Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going." Hebrews 11:8.. God predetermined a dwelling for Abraham, but He could have disobeyed the Word of the Lord, fortunately, he didn't
@dougmoerhoffman "In those days Hezekiah became ill and was at the point of death. The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz went to him and said, "The LORD says: Put your house in order, because you are going to die; you WILL NOT recover. Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the LORD, "Remember, O LORD, how I have walked before you..." God said, "I have heard your prayer and seen your tears; I will heal you. On the third day from now you will go up to the temple of the LORD." 2 Kings 20:1-5
UNIVERSAL SALVATION was for me a HERESY, people pleasing idea until I saw passages like this.
Romans 5;19 "for as through the disobedience of the one man,THE MANY were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall THE MANY be constituted righteous."
Do you believe it? Hell is NOT the final plan of God. EVERYONE WILL BE SAVED THROUGH JESUS, YES EVERYONE.
Do you want to believe that there is an all powerful, eternal entity that watches you while you sleep; can convict you of thought crime; can take your most involuntary passing thought and use it to condemn you for ever? Do you want to have invigilation every second of your life, from “before you are born” and, yes, even after death?
A celestial North Korea! That’s what you desire! Except you can get away from that despicable regime by dying!! No such luck for the religious! (CH)
Piper says 'I'm willing to ilve with that mystery'
After reflecting on 'Calvinism versus Arminisnism' that is the only conclusion I have been able to come to, since the Bible teaches election BUT also tells us to repent, and also that consequences depend on our choices. Which makes no sense unless we can choose or refuse to repent.
NB it is interesting to note that RIchard Dawkins and Fred Phelps agree on at least one thing. Both deny free will.
I dont need to… I look at what they DO, not what they speak. Infant Baptism = unconditional election without own will. Total depravity = just look how they treated those who were not Catholic(elect) – they killed them without mercy, like they were animals, totally deprived, condemned to hell (Conquistadors, Holy wars, etc) I could go on, but make your own picture… Calvinism is an attempt to impose this doctrine on the Bible
@2row777 I believe more and more that Catholicism is the doctrine of the Nicolaitans and Calvinism is a child of this… Or maybe they understood the Bible in this perverted sense from the start…
If you only study church history and the Protestant Reformation, you would not say these ridiculous statements. I won't even waste my time with someone who is ignorant to history and bible teachings. Take care.
@2row777 I did not expect you to understand. I have had enough discussions with Calvinists here that I know how their mind functions.. They dont really care for the entire Bible message, for the true gospel, and the love and mercy of God for all men.
If you admire Calvin so much, you may as well admire Hitler, the Inquisition, etc… You admire MEN, MEN, MEN
It is NOT about some totally deprived randomly elected people, who were, automatically and by no will of their own whatsoever, transformed into believers (without having ever believed) and by no consent of their own, persevere in faith. This sounds like a story of a miraculous transformation of demonic vampires.
So Romans 9 is basically about the rejection of the unbelieving Israel and establishment of the New covenant in Christ. It speaks about justification by faith and not by Old testament sacrifices.
We are allowed to be critical toward doctrines. Rev 2:15 Sometimes I really wonder why so many Christians do not see how horrible and wrong this doctrine is…
@ sonoffalconqueen I just don't see how anything Calvin says goes against the Word of God. I base all my conclusions on this one question: "Can it be backed up by scripture?" I don't consider "spiritual discernment" or "attentive listening" as valid means of discerning truth, for "the heart is deceptive and wicked above all things."
@manualboyca Calvin did not die for you, Jesus did, and if you were to trespass Geneva at the time of his tyranny there, you could have been in mortal danger… He was obviously a Cain – type, not Abel - type. 1 John 3:10-12
Pharisees searched the scripture but could not come to the knowledge of God. Calvin, as you said, was well read, but I doubt that he really had the knowledge of God. John 5:39
@ sonoffalconqueen - I know what calvinism is. What I DON'T understand is how you arrive at your opinions: "it destroys the gospel completely." "denies the Spirit of Christ." "carnal to its very core." "pure rebellion and hatred toward everything that is pure simple and merciful." "evil to the core" (???). Would you care to elaborate? maybe try quoting Calvin to explain yourself. Remember, you are responding to my post saying I don't understand why people are against calvinism.
@manualboyca I would very much like to elaborate, but it is not possible here. I could write a book about it. You said you cannot understand why people, who are against Calvinism, think it is evil, and I gave you my reasons. How I came to these conclusions? By simple spiritual discernment and by attentive listening to preachers who endorse it. Not to mention bible study.
I really would like to elaborate this more but absolutely not possible here and now
@sonoffalconqueen I'm a someone who leans a little more towards Calvin's teachings, I don't think you really understand it's teachings fully. Possibly you are thinking more in regards to hyper-Calvinists, but to think it is evil to the core is such a gross misconception. Many people are saved from Churches that teach the doctrines of the Sovereignty of God, how can that be evil? I myself was an atheist who was an enemy to God who was regenerated in an instant to love God.
@DerZanDa I come from an atheistic background too, was not raised Christian. Yes, my conversion was like a call from Jesus, he found me; he is the author of my faith. But I don’t need TULIP to explain things to me. They believe in limited atonement. They may very much get it: Matthew 22: 36-40 James 2:13
@sonoffalconqueen I don't believe in Limited atonement for one, I follow the teachings of Jesus not John Calvin. John 10:25-29, Jesus teaches about those who are not of his flock cannot believe, the flock is those that are predestined for salvation. "For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. Romans 9:15-16
@DerZanDa John 10 is about the Jews, he speaks to THEM. They are rejected (if they do not believe in Jesus). John 10:16 is about gentiles, who believe. John 10:26 are the Jews, who do not believe (scribes, Pharisees, etc). They prefer to continue in the old covenant sacrifices, they prefer to do works. They are not His sheep.
@DerZanDa The same in Romans 9. God chose Jesus, (symbolized by Jacob here), the New Covenant, and rejected Esau, Israel, the Old Covenant. Old covenant is the firstborn, new is younger, but in the new covenant (Jacob=Jesus) there is the eternal blessing and love. Those who believe in Jesus are chosen because Jesus is chosen from the beginning of times and with him ALL who believe in him. God knows the hearts of men so he knows who believes.
@DerZanDa Those who work (old covenant sacrifices or try to please God with religious works) are flesh; those who believe and receive the Holy spirit are born again in Spirit. Flesh (Esau) is rejected, hated; Spirit (Jesus) is eternal, loved. No flesh shall boast before God!
I never understand people who are SO against "calvinism" like it is some evil thing. Calvin spent more time studying the Word of God than anyone does nowadays. What he found in scripture is this: the most important thing in the universe is God's glory. Everything else stems from that one fact. If we treasure the glory of God as much as God treasures His own glory, we are on the right path.
@manualboyca Calvinism destroys the gospel completely. It has some correct theological premises, but it denies the Spitit of Christ. It proclaims the elect«, not God. It is carnal to its very core, it has no Spirit, it makes emphasizes there where there should not be any made. It wants to protect the sovereignty of God but actually completely denies it in practice. It is pure rebellion and hatred toward everything that is pure, simple and merciful. It is evil to the core!
G.) with mans attempt to get to God and mans attempt to get something from God! It's not what we get out of Him, though it it a consequence of salvation, but it's what God can get out of us! I hope and pray that this reaches your heart and not your head and may God bless you truly with the wisdom and knowledge that only comes from intimate fellowship with Him that burns with the flame of joy that cannot be quenched.
F.) "Coint the cost" that's not something you say to someone that doesn't have a choice. And God gives us that control and that choice and that freedom because He loves us so much that He's willing to leave it to chance that someone might genuinely love Him with the same genuine love that He first loved us with! I don't appologise for the truth of the Word of Christ, I do appologise if this has come across harshly and not in love because that is all I have for you my brother. But I'm done
E.) the Word of God is VERY clear! "come ALL who are who are burdened and heavy laden and find rest for your souls!" To be called in the Greek means "to be conformed to His saving purpose" and that can happen to any man, any woman, any boy, and any girl who is is willing to give up control of their own life, surrender it to Christ and pick up their cross and follow the only one worth following, Lord Jesus the Son of God. "Because in this life you will suffer", therefore,
D.) He has millions of angels to do that. That also tells me that if God is in control of everything then He is in control of all the sick, perverse things that happen to people that actually stems from the wickedness of mans heart. No! With a human being, Gods created sons and daughters, God wants genuine people to GENUINLY WANT AND LOVE HIM!!!! So don't bring up God's soveriegnty unless you know the heart of God and His will. This all I have to say I will not debate this any further because
C.) the Word of God. In Gods goodness and mercy and grace, He has chosen all men to have the opportunity for salvation. And if you even think for one second that Gon chooses some and not other reveals the heart of the person and puts them on a higher place in their own mind, whether you want to or not that's what happens in the the mind of someone that believes this Calvinist bullcrap. It sickens me when people think that God just wants robots who will think and do everything He wants them to
B.) is concerned with you being more like Jesus Christ! His wonderful Son! So lets put away this talk of "God's soveriegnty", because people nowadays wouldn't know what His sovereignty was if it hit them in the face. Erroring on the side of soveriegnty means absolutely nothing if its not making you more and more like Jesus Christ I don't care how good or biblical it sounds. Being apart of an elect group of people and not having to think or care how you get there is clearly against the word
A.) No I'm not saying that because piper believes in Calvinism and that man made, man centered doctrine is so against the Word of God and the heart of God it's ridiculous! "For God so loved the WORLD" it's the same in the Greek and the Hebrew, that means every single person on the planet created for all time has been given the opportunity for salvation and God loves you enough to give you a choice to not choose Him!! That's what the bible says! And you want to know what God's sovereignty
@mtaylor1986 Though you and I are on the same page with this "sovereignty" deception, I'm unwilling to accept your misrepresentation of God's Word because of our agreement in part. You're ignoring a significant amount of Scripture and it's because you're simply on the opposite side of the doctrinal paradox and neither of you will listen.
Assuming you're reasonable, you'd ask, "What am I ignoring?"
Prov 16:4, John 6:44,15:16, 19, Eph 1:4, Rev13:8, 17:8. 20:15 and MANY more Scriptures.
@mtaylor1986 cont2 Please read those last three Scriptures at the same time and give serious thought to the clear "Calvinist" message and the implications of them all (I'm not a Calvinist; neither am I an Arminian). Because you're WILLINGLY doctrinally blind, you might look at those verses and without considering their CLEAR meaning dismiss them because they don't agree with what you believe and have stated clearly here.
Well, for me, it's you or the Bible. Which do you think I'll pick?
Unfortunately piper is so rapped up in his doctrine and knowledge that he fails to see the simplicity of the gospel. God does give us a choice because He loves us! Because what good would it be to make a bunch of robots and say 'hey you have free will.... Not!'. That's not God, that's not love. Piper fails to realize that it is very plainly states in the bible about Gods sovereignty and mans free will if you just read the bible for what it says and stop trying to put this cloud of mystery aroun
@mtaylor1986 Do you mean, that, unfortunately, Piper is so wrapped up in what the Bible says? It teaches both; we somehow choose in the midst of God's sovereign election. It's a mystery since God is infinite and we are finite but always drift toward the sovereignty of God in all things; you are on pretty safe ground since the Bible teaches it.
@ToshiroHoshi It's NOT A MYSTERY -- IT'S A CONTRADICTION and BAD THEOLOGY.
As I've said before, you pervert the meaning of the word "sovereign." The Scripture is clear that God does whatever he pleases. It is also clear that men have the authority and power to make decisions on their own. Your inability to understand how God can accomplish his sovereign will with man's sovereign will doesn't require the completely absurd leap that God is actually controlling all man's decisions.
You think "sovereign" means that God makes all the decisions? Give the Scriptural evidence for it. It's only takes two or three Scriptures that say the same thing to validate your point and the Bible is a big Book. Go for it.
Just make sure your reasoning is sound and your word definitions are accurate.
Truth isn't truth because the preacher said it and you like the preacher. Truth is what God has said and it's written for us in the Word of God. So, this should be easy.
What God, in His sovereignty has done is declare that He rules over all (rulership means authority, not micromanaging every decision). "Free will," while not a Scriptural term, is nevertheless an obvious truth and if God controlled everyone's decisions, then He would be unrighteous to judge men for their being obedient to His control, which He determined, not them. It's not really hard to see how stupid this very wrong concept of "sovereign" is. As I've invited several to do I invite all.
To all: What so many of you, including Piper, don't understand (and erroneously don't believe) is that is that God never claimed that He CONTROLLED ALL DECISIONS. (This is what you're claiming when you tout (your misunderstanding of) "God is sovereign!" God indeed is sovereign, just like Nebuchadnezzar was sovereign over the earth but that didn't mean that he, or God control every decision that is made. This is a very WRONG understanding of "sovereign."
"Sovereignty" doesn't mean "totally in control" if "totally in control" means God's behind everything that happens. The definition for "sovereignty" is in the dictionary and it is correct. People like Piper pervert the meaning of the word to give God the responsibility for things He's not done. He told Adam to not eat the fruit. To say that God is responsible for Adam's eating is a perversion of "sovereignty" but fundamentalists like to embrace that perversion, regardless of the scenario.
@911dispatcher you are wrong. God is sovereign in every way. He knew of Adam's sin before adam was even made. He knew that he would have to send his son to die for us on a cross before the Earth was even made. And its incredible how much he loves us to do to that. He has and will always be in control.
@hermanlovesrockband I'm wrong about what? The definition of "sovereignty." You must be too lazy to use a dictionary. I suspect your thinking is so simplistic and you're so brainwashed by religious nonsense, that you really haven't given this subject enough thoughtful consideration because if you did, you'd come to the conclusion that you've believed lies.
I invite you to think. AS you're thinking, justify EACH thought with "two or three witnesses" from Scripture according to Deut. 17:6.
@hermanlovesrockband I think you're completely and perfectly WRONG. However, I believe the Bible, not what preachers tell me. So, if you can find "two or three witnesses" as the Scriptures require for establishing truth, then I'll be more than happy to believe those Scriptures. (I hope that's not a new doctrine for you -- if it is I can gladly show it to you in the Old and New Testaments.)
Good luck. I'll be waiting (but not holding my breath).
@hermanlovesrockband You need to quit perverting the meaning of the word "sovereign."
I'm sure you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, thinking you're glorifying God -- and you are saying some good things about Him. But to say it's God's decision when a mother bends over and drops her baby on the concrete on his head and it's God's decision when a person driving leans over to reach for something and runs over someone, your irresponsibility is inexcusable. You're testifying THERE ARE NO ACCIDENTS!
@911dispatcher on a human level of course there are accidents... But God could have stopped said accident and didn't, so as far as God is concerned there are no accidents.
People do all sorts of things that they don't mean to do, or weren't trying to do, but God (who's ways and thoughts are higher than our own) Ordains or allows everything that happens for His reasons.
@hermanlovesrockband How smart do you need to be to understand that the Bible doesn't define the word "sovereign." The dictionary does, however and dictionaries don't give the word the definition you give it. You've assumed, presumed and misapplied Scripture to say there are no accidents and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that with free will comes the inevitability of errors and accidents. You're incredibly stubborn and irrational to refuse to see the obvious.
@911dispatcher God ordains all things in the universe... If anything happens then God must have allowed it for some reason... but His ways are higher then ours, and his thoughts are higher than ours. God is all-powerful and is never surprised by anything because He actively ordains ALL things.
Sovereign means absolute and total control, without limitation or restraint.
@EverydayRevival "God ordains all things in the universe." Oh really? Sorry, I believe the Bible; you'll have to show it to me. You have Deut. 17:6 to start with and the first thing I want to know is your definition and Scriptural support of your definition of "ordain." Next, give me "two or three witnesses" that justify your second remark.
Your definition for "sovereignty" is wrong, but I welcome you to use Scripture to prove it. Just tell yourself the truth and don't give me inapplicable cont
@EverydayRevival cont2 Scripture. This will be a chore for you because you've already shown that you're "fast and loose" with the truth... but you can do it. Discipline your mouth (or should I say your fingers?).
The problem is that you're confusing the truth of Ps. 115:3 and 135:6 with a misunderstanding of "sovereignty." Sorry, friend, but your problem is the same as the guy to whom I just responded. Part brainwashing with religious nonsense, part lack of thoughtfulness, & most cont2
@EverydayRevival cont3 importantly, a failure to give the Word of God enough attention. Jesus said very plainly, "If you ABIDE in My Word, THEN you are TRULY My disciples AND you SHALL know the truth and the truth SHALL MAKE YOU FREE. Now, you've heard that verse raped by the Baptists as they REMOVED the contingency of vs. 31 from their quoting of it. The Baptists have a bad habit of perverting virtually every precious truth in God's holy Word. Nevertheless, the Lord knows who are His. cont3
@EverydayRevival cont4 I heartily recommend that you do a few things. Learn how to pray so that you can get answers (Mark 11:23-26). Learn how to read the Bible so that you can hear God (John 10:27), and learn how to be honest with what God's Word says (Matt 22:29) and not simply parrot the preachers that you like (Luke 6:39).
2Cor13:5 What does that mean to you? Do you meditate on Scripture? Do you hear God talk to you? Do you get answers after you realize the you've misinterpreted a verse?
@EverydayRevival If you haven't been confronted with serious issues that made you question and examine what you believe, you're a novice and you've simply swallowed simple yet vain answers without giving enough serious thought and believing prayer to them. I've spent far more time on this than you have and you're sloppy to hand me such an empty answer that can easily be torn apart with many Scriptures that you haven't even bothered to consider. "God's ways are higher" is a convenient cop-out.
@EverydayRevival cont B It's so convenient that you simply shift your brain into neutral and don't concern yourself with it. That's SPIRITUAL SLOTHFULNESS. What do you do with the entire 2nd chapter of 1Cor? I know what you do with it. You ignore it. Why? Because "God's ways are higher than our ways." You're spiritually LAZY. Read the chapter AGAIN AND AGAIN, until it dawns on your lightning fast brain that we have a "better covenant based on better promises" (Heb8:6) and God didn't lie when
@EverydayRevival cont C He said, "But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things." The word "know" in the Greek means "perceive" and the word "thing" isn't in the text; it was added by the translators and "all" means "all." If you put all those Scriptures together and pray about it and EXERCISE YOUR FAITH, you're going to see that you have a much greater sonship that you've grasped and you can hear Him better than what's been represented to you.
@EverydayRevival Just so you'll know, I didn't address 2Cor5:18 because it's not applicable. if you're incorporating that into your perspective, then you've misunderstood that verse and we can discuss it later.
Take to heart and meditate on 1Cor2:14, 1Cor2:10 and Heb 11:6 and consider why I gave them to you in that order.
God has more for you than you know, but you MUST NOT see men as your pattern or example. You must by faith hear and let God quicken your imagination. ABIDE in the WORD.
@EverydayRevival It will help you out, Chris, if you'll give much serious thought to the reason for preachers perverting the meaning of "sovereign." It makes their life MUCH easier. It's an excuse not to study, not to seek God for understanding, not to give people the hard answers they don't want to hear, and worst of all, it's a great excuse for unbelief. Just blame God with pious words and claim, "His ways are higher."
But try to reconcile in your HEART that rape and torture are God's will.
@EverydayRevival My response to you is the same as to hermanlovesrockband
Take your time, search the Scriptures and find the evidence for what you're saying.
It's not I, but you who doesn't understand what "sovereign" means. IF (and that's a very big "if") you can find two or three Scriptures that say "God ordains all things in the universe," meaning that He approves everything that happens, then I'd very much like to see those Scriptures.
@911dispatcher 2Ch 20:6 And said, O LORD God of our fathers, art not thou God in heaven? and rulest not thou over all the kingdoms of the heathen? and in thine hand is there not power and might, so that none is able to withstand thee?
Deu 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
Psa 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
@911dispatcher Exo 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I WILL HARDEN HIS HEART, that he shall not let the people go.
Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
@911dispatcher 1Sa 16:14-16 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an EVIL SPIRIT FROM THE LORD troubled him. And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an EVIL SPIRIT FROM GOD troubleth thee. Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the EVIL SPIRIT FROM God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well.
@EverydayRevival The issue here is NOT whether God has power and authority to do what He wants to do. The issue is whether God CONTROLS ALL MEN'S DECISIONS.
I don't want to appear rude, but again, you're playing like you're stupid and cannot understand simple word definitions.
There are many Scriptures that show God DOES WHATSOEVER HE PLEASES. To pretend that is the same thing as "He controls all men's decisions" is ONCE AGAIN pretending you're too stupid to understand.
@EverydayRevival You left out several verses in Ps. 75 and Prov 21:1further supports God's authority over the realm of men but neither do anything to justify the stupidity of the false doctrine that God makes all men do everything they do. In the same 21st proverb, after saying He turns the king's heart wherever He wishes, the psalm then spends much time giving wisdom about men's responsibility to CHOOSE the right things to do.
Your insistence on playing stupid isn't helping you learn.
@911dispatcher God sovereign he's dealt with like you before...
Job 33:12-13 Behold, in this thou art not just: I will answer thee, that God is greater than man. Why dost thou strive against him? for he giveth not account of any of his matters.
I never said He approves of sin or the evil deeds of men just that He knows things we don't about what He allows to happen in His creation.
"Truth is what God has said"... that's right... and God has said that He's in control of everything.
@EverydayRevival You REALLY need to engage your brain. "He ... allows to happen" IS NOT the equivalent of "He CONTROLS all men's decisions." To understand your error and to understand the Word of God on the differences in these two very different positions requires an openness to the the truth of God's Word which you apparently don't have. "Allowing to happen" isn't a Biblical doctrine. It's not even sloppy exegesis. It's the answer of someone who doesn't understand God's revelation.
@EverydayRevival You NEED to give this subject much more time by meditating on what the Word of God actually says and not your opinion about what it means. God can and will give you light on it if you'll exercise your faith to receive and give your thoughts to understanding His Word instead of trying to dictate what it means. You don't understand enough about this subject to be putting forth opinions on it. Sorry, but that's just the facts. However, your lack of understanding is typical.
@EverydayRevival cont2 Let me know how it goes. Pay careful attention to the look in his eye when you tell him that and beware.
Then tell him that Jesus died for him and loves him more than he realizes. Then remind him again that God must have wanted his daughter raped and murdered or it wouldn't have happened because God is in control of everything.
Are you REALLY that stupid to believe that religious CRAP?
Only religious stupidity is that stupid. You blaspheme God instead of honor Him.
@EverydayRevival BTW, you did give some good Scriptures of which more Believers should be aware. They do make some great points that many don't understand. God can and does do whatsoever He pleases, but those things you acknowledge you don't know about... well, they're not unknowable.
Your 2nd paragraph is a lie because you very plainly said God was behind it all -- that's what "God is in CONTROL" means. If God controls, then every diseased and starving child is His will. Face what you say.
@EverydayRevival The implications of what you pretend is true are so untenable that one has to be religiously brainwashed to hold to such an absurd doctrine. If what you say is true, then the atheists are correct when they accuse God of being a cruel and malevolent creator who takes pleasure in watching people suffer. To suggest that God COULD arbitrarily stop evil but DOESN'T WANT TO makes him a malicious and evil god who is a colossal hypocrite to enjoy evil while telling us to be holy.
@EverydayRevival cont B It doesn't take a smart man to see how absurd such a thing is. God is good and your religious fantasy doesn't match the facts. I told you why men preach such stupidity and you SHOULD take a lesson to believe the Word of God over the opinions of men, regardless of how much you "like" them.
God's Word is absolute truth and anytime there appears to be a discrepancy, it's ALWAYS in one's understanding of what's written. I'm familiar with all the Scriptures you mentioned
@EverydayRevival cont C and some of them challenge the understanding of young Believers because they seem "hard." I'm sure you've applied the same idea to the extreme position you've adopted but you've gone too far. satan and adam's sin have brought evil on this world and while God's judgment and wrath "appear" evil to one who doesn't rightly divided the Word of truth, it's ludicrous to attribute all evil to God's judgment and wrath. Therefore, God doesn't deserve "credit" for evil for which
@EverydayRevival cont D He's not responsible. We can EASILY see this in purposes and provisions of Christ's redemption. Consider Acts 10:38 "You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good, and healing all who were oppressed by the devil; for God was with Him."
Again, one doesn't have to be smart to see that if Jesus was healing those the devil oppressed, then the oppression wasn't God's will nor was it under His control
@EverydayRevival cont E otherwise God would be fighting His own "control" by flowing through Jesus in compassion and love to heal, deliver and perform miracles for people. Now, this is so obvious that we shouldn't even be having this discussion. The exceptionally stupid doctrine that you've parroted is wicked and evil and it's authored by the father of lies who wants to confuse people about God's goodness and benevolence. I could give MANY more examples that contradict the absurdity you've
@EverydayRevival cont F put forth but hopefully you've decided to stop and consider the great redemption of the Lord and with enough consideration of His redemptive promise you can "wake up" from this blasphemous doctrine that IGNORES the character of God revealed in the redemption of the Lord Jesus. The Law was given through Moses but GRACE AND TRUTH came by Jesus Christ. We have a BETTER covenant based on BETTER promises and they ARE NOT God "working against Himself."
@EverydayRevival cont G promises for a few weeks and see how contrary His goodness and redemptive promises are to the idea that He's the one making everyone's life hard. He said, "I am come that men might have life and have it more abundantly." If all the evil were God's doing, then the redemptive promises that we've been given through faith in the Lord Jesus are contrary to the will of God and God was resisting His own will in sending Jesus. That's absurd. God DOESN'T CONTROL everything and
@EverydayRevival cont H and the facts that 1) He's told us to pray and 2) told us to bless and curse not and 3) that whatever we ask believing we shall receive and 4) told us that "this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith" tell us that God isn't CONTROLLING everything, but that we have authority and power just like Jesus did to "undo" the works of the devil. If you'll look at the Greek in 1Jn 3:8, you'll see that's a good way to translate the word. Now, again, if God's in
@EverydayRevival cont I control, then why is Jesus fighting God's control (and sending us "in the same way" Jn 20:21) to fight God's control and why is Jesus so stupid that He doesn't understand that God is behind all the evil works for which Jesus is giving the devil credit?
I could go on and on and on until I write a book, but there's already a GOOD BOOK written that explains all this and you just need to BELIEVE IT instead of stupid preachers.
@EverydayRevival NEW POINT. Now, because you're so thoroughly brainwashed with this absurdly blasphemous doctrine, and you're looking at what I've said like a calf looking at a new gate, the point the devil will like to give you is this: "I'm right (the devil always speaks in first person, pretending he's you so that you'll accept his lies as your own thoughts) because Jesus is God and when He does something, it's always the will of God. I never said that the devil never did anything. I just
@EverydayRevival cont 1 said that God was in control of everything and Jesus "fixing" what the devil messed up shows that God is in control."
At some point, a BELIEVER needs to decide to BELIEVE the Bible; not the opinions of men. I asked you for "2 or 3 Scriptures" that said "God controls everything" and you never produced ONE because there are none. It's past time for you to recognize that you swallowed religious nonsense and repent for it.
@911dispatcher "fixing" what the devil messed up? In Revelation Jesus is called the lamb slain BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD... All of creation was made for Christ, the fall, sin's effect on the world, fallen human history, the unbelief of God's people, all of it... exists only to point to Christ, as our Lord, and Savior.
Jesus Christ and the glorious plan of redemption certainly IS NOT A BACK-UP PLAN!
@EverydayRevival You're not telling me anything that I don't already know and you're not telling me anything that supports your original (yet sloppy, careless and thoughtless) position that God controls everything. Tell me about the rapes of your loved ones and that God did it. Tell me about the tragedies of friends and how you told their families, "God did this to you." APPLY the stupidity you proclaim to real life and see it works.
You pontificate with Scripture at a distance from reality.
@EverydayRevival Actually, it's not too late for you to say. "Well,, I think you're right. I said 'control' but I guess what I really meant was 'ultimate control,' meaning that nothing escaped God's knowledge nor His ability to handle."
Your lack of thoughtfulness on this issue has left you with God getting all the credit for all the devil's work because "God is in control." Many teach this nonsense, saying stupid things like, "The devil is just God's errand boy." You FOOLISHLY INVITE blasphemy
@EverydayRevival You have a shallow mind and it is clear that you were NEVER a debating champion for your reasoning skills are very poor. None of the Scriptures you listed prove that God murders, rapes and tortures people for pleasure, because all those things get done and you're testifying that God did it.
Your pride is stronger than your reason. That's for sure.
@911dispatcher That is ridiculous and this is no longer constructive.... I never said that God did any of that stuff for pleasure or that He does it at all... your argument is wrong and your tactics shameful please understand that I wasn't trying to win a debate.
So in your mind God doesn't have the power to stop those things?
Or does He not know they're going on?
You do believe that He's a God of Love don't you?
So why do these things happen if God doesn't have a plan for it?
@EverydayRevival It never was constructive. You NEVER sought for understanding. You attacked me with random Scriptures which didn't prove your contention and wouldn't examine your lack of cogent rebuttal. "Everyone of those verses I listed proves without a doubt that God is in control of everything," were your words and now you want to back off without acknowledging you erred, and NOW you want me to give you understanding, but understanding comes from God. You neglected Scripture that countered
@EverydayRevival your perspective and your perspective painted God as the evil doer and with the plain testimony of Scripture that "God alone is good" and "all His works are in faithfulness" and many other verses that show that portraying God as the evil doer isn't right, you pressed on without questioning your obvious error which I pointed our several times. Most people realize that there are things they don't understand but you pretended you "got it" even though the results of your position
@EverydayRevival were blasphemous in most people's understanding and misrepresented God. You did have Scripture on your side, but you don't have enough understanding to be so carelessly promoting something where your understanding is obviously lacking.
When we don't understand something, it's time to pray, seek God, read the Word and ask God for wisdom and understanding, not stubbornly insist on a point when ti's not really that hard to see something doesn't fit.
@EverydayRevival NONE of us "knows it all" but we believe God's testimony that He is "true and righteous all together." We believe, by faith, that He does no evil. Therefore, it's not hard to see that when someone attributes evil to Him, we conclude that person doesn't understand something because God has declared that He is just.
Just as you have one, two or three reasons to do something, God might have a hundred reasons. It really is ok to say, "I don't know," since we don't know SO MUCH.
Thank God I believe The Word of God and how it was taught for 2000 years and don't have to follow some man named Piper or even others 1400 years after Jesus. Free will, love and personal relationship and responsibility are basic Christian doctrines that should not puzzle someone like piper, unless he missed the basics of the Orthodox Christian faith!
@1integrity Even though there is great wisdom, revelation, understanding and knowledge in Scripture, the things you mention are simple and obvious truths.
@911dispatcher I think maybe there's a way for you to express the logic of your thoughts without expressing some of the negative emotions toward EverydayRevival. I think it would be a good testament to any unbelievers who stumble upon this thread if they found Christians debating gently and peacefully, and not insulting each other. I mean, what's the point of saying, "You have a shallow mind" and "your pride is stronger than your reason"?
@jmmanley I recognize the lack of "ALL patience." I get frustrated and impatient when people don't listen and don't even try to understand. It's a fault.
Nevertheless, I also recognize that not only are the points you make in Scripture, but we also have the examples of Jesus and Stephen addressing the Pharisees, Paul addressing Elymas and even the high priest, James addressing his Christian readers, calling them "adulterers and adulteresses" and Jude's remarks. I think Ecc. 3:1 gives insight.
@911dispatcher I would think someone who feels he is confident in the Scriptures would be well aware of the numerous commands in Scripture to speak lovingly and purely to one's neighbor, to return good for evil, to be patient and gentle, etc. I would think these rules apply even when debating. And I would think that we shouldn't grieve the Spirit.
You would think he could look at that complete schism in rationality and realize that at least one of the two suppositions is false... instead he turns a blind eye to understanding the fundamental problem of sin which is the entire purpose of the incarnation. This theological framework is fundamentally flawed.
@iamtamarichka The entire framework is wrong. What I said was, if you apply logic to the discrepancy, you must come to (at the very least) the realization that one of the 2 "biblical truths" has to be false. In other words, his understanding of "biblical truths" is suspect when, by his own admission, they cannot be resolved.
@chapdaddy No both are true, God is in control of everything & man has to be responsible for his actions. We are to have faith and trust God in this. Just because you cannot understand it does not make it untrue. This is where faith comes in. Look at Job, God allowed Satan to come against Him yet He held Job responsible for his attitude and actions. He basically said who are you to question me the God of the Universe. We must trust and obey knowing God is working things out for His Glory.
@iamtamarichka Think for one second... Piper said "God is ultimately, decisively in control of those decisions" for which humans are held accountable. It's not that this holds some great mystery... it's that the theology behind it is flawed. If you can't see that, you aren't worth any more of my time.
@chapdaddy i guess i am not worth anymore of your time. I pray God reveals more and more of Himself to you as you seek His face. Be of good courage brother, God is amazing and we must trust Him in all things :)
He pretty much states my opinion, except for some semantics about the terminology of 'free will.'
TWO things MUST be True, in Christianity according to the Bible:
1. Humans are responsible for their decisions
2. God is in control of everything
Fundamentally it doesn't matter HOW you try to explain that scenario, as long as you do not deny either one of those holy truths. Upon pain of eternal death.
He does it all the time. He did it to the Apostle Paul and many others in the bible times. I know God can change me. The question is do I trust Him ? Do I depend on Him? I want to do things my way. But the holy Spirit tells me to put my trust on the Lord. So it's a daily thing with me. Praying helps me calm me down.
@changeishere2008 I'm actually pretty secure right now. There are times, though, when things get tough that I really need to throw all my cares on the Lord. I'm really more of a Bible reader than a prayer, but of course, prayer is very important and I need to do it more.
God can change a person's heart. Indeed, He is the only One who can do that. Man cannot change his own heart by the strength of his own will. This is an essential point in Calvinism, well with the Bible: man NEEDS a Savior.
I know I have free will it makes no diffrence to me where its location is. I don't stop & say will where are you today? are you attached or detached to me? I know I have it. God told Adam & Eve not to eat from the tree. few minutes later they ate the tree. Jonah was told to go to Nineveh Jonah had other plans. King David knew the right from wrong never the less He had Bathsheba's husband killed.
Will all have free will. We knows we have free will. Some are in denial and in need help.
@RomansGalatians I think there's an intricate interconnected series of relationships or sequence of events, either way, between God's sustaining power and our thoughts. Here's a simplified time-sensitive sequence example:
God created us and has revealed Himself-- Romans 1:20
Man has moral and intellectual autonomy, sustained by God's power, and uses it to yearn for God. He 'asks' to know God.
@dougmoerhoffman Well, I think that it a Calvinist STARTS with man with good hearts in Adam & Eve.
But that is not so for everyone else, because everyone else is born after the FALL. Humpty Dumpty fell and cannot put himself back together, a condition that we were BORN INTO. This is the most important doctrine of Calvinism, from Romans 3, that man is born into TOTAL DEPRAVITY.
We do not love God, and have no desire to "yearn" for God. Thus God UNILATERALLY changes the person's heart.
@dougmoerhoffman Irresistible Grace is not so difficult for us to understand, as long as we remember that it is God's perview and responsibility to save.
Let me ask this: Do you trust a website on the Internet because you are such a trusting person, or because the keepers of the website have proven themselves trustworthy? Do you trust an employee who shows up to work on time because HE is trustworthy or because YOU are so trusting?
In the same way, we trust GOD because HE is trustworthy...
@dougmoerhoffman Not because I, THE GREAT ME, has so much faith.
Or another example, do you BELIEVE that a computer is sitting in front of you because you CHOSE and WILLED to believe it? No, you just DO believe it, because it's TRUE. Even if you decided "Hm, no I don't believe there's a computer here." It wouldn't matter, because that is not what you believe.
Belief and faith aren't matters of WILL POWER, its because it has been revealed to you that God is TRUE and TRUSTWORTHY.
"that's not inexplicable - it's just miraculous"
what a win of a statement.
FDL09sn07 3 days ago
some really good stuff here
ttwilkable 4 days ago
Responsibility and fault are two different things.
RomansGalatians 5 days ago
Sin wasn't Jesus' fault, but He took responsibility for it.
RomansGalatians 5 days ago
It would be like seeing a baby drown in a mud puddle and saying "hey, I didn't put the baby there. It's not my fault" and just walk away. Big deal if it's not your fault. THAT ISN'T THE ISSUE!
Personal Responsibility has nothing to do with accounting causation and fault.
RomansGalatians 5 days ago
We have our sinner father, Adam. And he is the cause of our sin. His Sin, with a capital S, is imputed on to us and we ratify it by partaking. But just because we have identified the cause of WHY we sin, doesn't mean that we are absolved of Personal Responsibility.
Personal Responsibility is your present duty to respond. The cause of the problem is irrelevant.
RomansGalatians 5 days ago
One important point about Personal Responsibility (PR). A prostitute may say "well, my father molested me, that's why I'm a prostitute." And indeed, that may all be true. That indeed, the CAUSE of her immoral behavior may be her father. But just because that is the CAUSE, doesn't mean that she doesn't have personal responsibility to break that chain of cause/effect in her life. CAUSE really isn't the issue for PR.
RomansGalatians 5 days ago
Sounds a little Van Til to me. Irrational Kirkegard. Calling a contradiction a "paradox", when a Christian is called to HARMONIZE biblical doctrines!
RomansGalatians 5 days ago
Let me clarify a little bit. When we say that Joe has a personal responsibility, we don't mean that he is required to make a galaxy before lunch today. We aren't speaking of responsibility as a comparative to God.
But when we speak of sin, we are comparing ourselves to God's holiness. We fall hopelessly short and need a Savior.
RomansGalatians 1 week ago
RELATIVE TO WHAT???
when we talk about personal responsibility, we ask what affirmative actions are required? Omitting to act is a sin, so HOW MUCH action must we perform? When we speak of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY it seems like a construct RELATIVE TO FELLOW MAN.
When we speak of our sin, our powerlessness to make ourselves anew (change) we are speaking in a construct RELATIVE TO GOD, OUR MAKER. Our sin is compared to His holiness.
It's apples and oranges, not contradiction.
RomansGalatians 1 week ago
some really good stuff here
jessyjessy4 1 week ago
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Calvinism/Doctrines of Grace/Reformed Theology are from the pit of Hell.....they are heresies that make God Almighty a sinner and not just a sinner but the Author of ALL sin.
Every child raped....every women beaten...every person murdered...every deceitful business deal...every cruelty man has done, was authored by God. It is a blasphemous false religion and many otherwise fine Bible teachers are promoting it today. MacArthur, Sproul, Piper, are some of them. Flee and Repent of Calvinism!!
willpower242 1 week ago
Piper also conjoins sovereignty (which is dominion, an attribute) and predestination (which is preplanning, an action). Most Calvinists make this same error. Absolute predestination requires absolute sovereignty, but absolute sovereignty does not require absolute predestination. Piper erroneously believes in the absolute predestination of ALL things. This fixes many theological issues in the Calvinistic system, but has the fatal flaw of making God the author of sin; secondary causes or no.
theearstohear 2 weeks ago
Piper sees no distinction between the voice of the Son of God, and the voice of a preacher. There is a difference between God saying,"Let there be light," Moses writing, "Let there be light," and a man preaching that the bible says, "let there be light." The first instance alone created LIGHT, the latter two only the light of information. "Search the scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life, and they are they which testify of me." (John 5:39) Christ imparts life, not preachers.
theearstohear 2 weeks ago
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God is in control and the creator of all things both good and evil. the reason evil exists is so that glory for God can exist. Would we ever know what being righteous is if we never knew evil?? (Romans 9:22)
rlomeli44 1 month ago
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rlomeli44 1 month ago
He should investigate Molinism!
Birdieupon 1 month ago
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Its interesting...people dont think a loving God could elect or choose...yet Ephesians says "IN LOVE HE PREDESTINED US"...Armenians...use your head and read the Word. That is all.
lowbattery34 2 months ago
"To put the name free will on it doesn't work, it doesn't supply any explanatory power." In this case, most theologians say things that don't work, but especially Piper. His concepts of the Word, Goodness, Sovereignty, decrees, etc ultimately provide NO satisfactory explanatory power. They just look like a thin gossamer of utterances designed to provoke emotional responses in the listeners.
billb380 2 months ago
@billb380
Sure, in this video he didn't explain those things. That would have taken a mighty long time. But he does absolutely explain these Biblically on his church's website.
LivingWellist 1 month ago
lol look at matt just pondering about each word hes sayin love seeing these guys together
Ps3vinni 3 months ago
Dead person......... LIVE!
thronewords1 4 months ago
I think Piper's statement saying that he would die for the belief of God being ultimately in control is exactly what the problem is with Reformed theology. I believe it is people like this that hold their theology up as more precious than truth. Reformed Theology is literally the reason why Atheism exists, I believe. Atheists believe we're so stupid. We say God is in control, then we also say He is a God of Love. So God is in control of the 5 year old getting rapped 10 times a day in Thailand?
MissedTheMark 4 months ago
Actually Atheists bash on any kind of Christian especially those who say God isn't in control. They will tell you if God is good then why does He allow disease, disasters, etc.? God takes credit for many tragedies in the Bible. God DOES NOT cause that child to be raped but He is sovereign over it. He could prevent it. The rapist will still be punished unless he repents and believes the Gospel. Nothing shocks God. You have no idea how much worse earth would be without God being sovereign.
ChristianReformed 4 months ago
@ChristianReformed Atheists bash them more because there are more of them then ever, cause Reformed Theo is dying. It's old man theology. You know what's funny about the word sovereign in the dictionary? It says nothing about one having 'control'. It talks about having complete authority but not having control. Best example. You have a riot going on in the streets and have a police officer in the center of it. He has all authority over the riot but he doesn't have control. Same thing with God..
MissedTheMark 4 months ago
@MissedTheMark I don't even have to be Reformed at all to believe God is more Sovereign than the way you just described it. The Bible makes that much clear.
ChristianReformed 4 months ago
@ChristianReformed God's not in control, because he chose not be. He is only in control when his people pray, then He takes control of a situation. It doesn't make God anyless powerful. He is all powerful. He could control everything, He just chooses not to in this system that He created because He wants humanity to have a choice.. It's very simple to understand..
MissedTheMark 4 months ago
@MissedTheMark Not really a great example. More like a computer programmer having authority over his starcraft ai simulation, but not control.
dougmoerhoffman 3 months ago
@dougmoerhoffman No, it's actually a great example, which is why you don't have a good argument against it..
MissedTheMark 3 months ago
@MissedTheMark No, the problem with that analogy is that it makes God impotent. A police officer did not create the people in the crowd. God did. The computer programmer analogy works better, because the programmer actually created the software, but he's not actually controlling every movement his RTS soldiers make.
No analogy will be perfect. But some are worse than others.
dougmoerhoffman 3 months ago
@dougmoerhoffman It's irrelevant whether God created people or not. What is relevant is the system God made for the people after they were created. God created a system in which he wanted humanity to have autonomy. The way He chose to go about it was to restrict himself from micro-managing, for the purpose of His desire to become reality, by giving humanity the ability to chose Him or not. The idea of God not being able to make a creation self-operating diminishes God's power and ability.
MissedTheMark 3 months ago
@MissedTheMark
Acts 17:24-28 "God...gives to all life, breath, and all things. And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and have our being,"
dougmoerhoffman 3 months ago
@dougmoerhoffman This an easy one to argue.. God had a determined Abraham's dwelling. Abraham could chosen not to believe God and follow His direction, fortunately he did. "By faith (Not by God's control or micro-managing) Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going." Hebrews 11:8.. God predetermined a dwelling for Abraham, but He could have disobeyed the Word of the Lord, fortunately, he didn't
MissedTheMark 3 months ago
@dougmoerhoffman "In those days Hezekiah became ill and was at the point of death. The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz went to him and said, "The LORD says: Put your house in order, because you are going to die; you WILL NOT recover. Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the LORD, "Remember, O LORD, how I have walked before you..." God said, "I have heard your prayer and seen your tears; I will heal you. On the third day from now you will go up to the temple of the LORD." 2 Kings 20:1-5
MissedTheMark 3 months ago
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God is sovereign and He is also merciful. His love & mercy endures forever, not just on this side of death.
whatthehellbook . com
whatthehellbook 4 months ago
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UNIVERSAL SALVATION was for me a HERESY, people pleasing idea until I saw passages like this.
Romans 5;19 "for as through the disobedience of the one man,THE MANY were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall THE MANY be constituted righteous."
Do you believe it? Hell is NOT the final plan of God. EVERYONE WILL BE SAVED THROUGH JESUS, YES EVERYONE.
motibi 4 months ago
Do you want to believe that there is an all powerful, eternal entity that watches you while you sleep; can convict you of thought crime; can take your most involuntary passing thought and use it to condemn you for ever? Do you want to have invigilation every second of your life, from “before you are born” and, yes, even after death?
A celestial North Korea! That’s what you desire! Except you can get away from that despicable regime by dying!! No such luck for the religious! (CH)
StrumstickJoe 4 months ago
What's going to happen after we die? Watch "GOD'S PRISON" and find out. It's worth the time considering the eternal stake.
***See the video before you comment***
Electfilmproductions 5 months ago
Piper says 'I'm willing to ilve with that mystery'
After reflecting on 'Calvinism versus Arminisnism' that is the only conclusion I have been able to come to, since the Bible teaches election BUT also tells us to repent, and also that consequences depend on our choices. Which makes no sense unless we can choose or refuse to repent.
NB it is interesting to note that RIchard Dawkins and Fred Phelps agree on at least one thing. Both deny free will.
stephenhayesuk 5 months ago
What Calvinism teaches with the mouth is consistent with the deeds of Catholics in history
sonoffalconqueen 6 months ago
I dont need to… I look at what they DO, not what they speak. Infant Baptism = unconditional election without own will. Total depravity = just look how they treated those who were not Catholic(elect) – they killed them without mercy, like they were animals, totally deprived, condemned to hell (Conquistadors, Holy wars, etc) I could go on, but make your own picture… Calvinism is an attempt to impose this doctrine on the Bible
sonoffalconqueen 6 months ago
Without Lutheranism and Calvinism you would still be chained to Catholicism.
RecoveringPharisee 6 months ago
@RecoveringPharisee Calvinism IS basically a catholic dogma. Calvin got it from Augustine, who was influenced by Gnostics.
sonoffalconqueen 6 months ago
@sonoffalconqueen
You must have no idea what Calvinism is if you say it's a catholic dogma; Calvinism contradicts catholic theology.
2row777 6 months ago
@2row777 I believe more and more that Catholicism is the doctrine of the Nicolaitans and Calvinism is a child of this… Or maybe they understood the Bible in this perverted sense from the start…
sonoffalconqueen 6 months ago
@sonoffalconqueen
If you only study church history and the Protestant Reformation, you would not say these ridiculous statements. I won't even waste my time with someone who is ignorant to history and bible teachings. Take care.
2row777 6 months ago
@2row777 I did not expect you to understand. I have had enough discussions with Calvinists here that I know how their mind functions.. They dont really care for the entire Bible message, for the true gospel, and the love and mercy of God for all men.
If you admire Calvin so much, you may as well admire Hitler, the Inquisition, etc… You admire MEN, MEN, MEN
Take care too.
sonoffalconqueen 6 months ago
It is NOT about some totally deprived randomly elected people, who were, automatically and by no will of their own whatsoever, transformed into believers (without having ever believed) and by no consent of their own, persevere in faith. This sounds like a story of a miraculous transformation of demonic vampires.
sonoffalconqueen 6 months ago
So Romans 9 is basically about the rejection of the unbelieving Israel and establishment of the New covenant in Christ. It speaks about justification by faith and not by Old testament sacrifices.
sonoffalconqueen 6 months ago
@sonoffalconqueen - Calvinism is evil to the core! It's so refreshing to finally hear someone else speak of it!
mtaylor1986 6 months ago
@mtaylor1986 The same, brother!
We are allowed to be critical toward doctrines. Rev 2:15 Sometimes I really wonder why so many Christians do not see how horrible and wrong this doctrine is…
sonoffalconqueen 6 months ago
@sonoffalconqueen - I agree with you 100% brother thank you for being faithful it has greatly encouraged my and what I needed to hear today!
mtaylor1986 6 months ago
@ sonoffalconqueen I just don't see how anything Calvin says goes against the Word of God. I base all my conclusions on this one question: "Can it be backed up by scripture?" I don't consider "spiritual discernment" or "attentive listening" as valid means of discerning truth, for "the heart is deceptive and wicked above all things."
manualboyca 6 months ago
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sonoffalconqueen 6 months ago
@manualboyca Calvin did not die for you, Jesus did, and if you were to trespass Geneva at the time of his tyranny there, you could have been in mortal danger… He was obviously a Cain – type, not Abel - type. 1 John 3:10-12
Pharisees searched the scripture but could not come to the knowledge of God. Calvin, as you said, was well read, but I doubt that he really had the knowledge of God. John 5:39
sonoffalconqueen 6 months ago
@manualboyca Spiritual discernment: 1.Corinthians 2: 12-15
Scripture is not enough; Holy Spirit reveals things to you (according to the scriptures, in line with the scriptures)
sonoffalconqueen 6 months ago
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sonoffalconqueen 6 months ago
@ sonoffalconqueen - I know what calvinism is. What I DON'T understand is how you arrive at your opinions: "it destroys the gospel completely." "denies the Spirit of Christ." "carnal to its very core." "pure rebellion and hatred toward everything that is pure simple and merciful." "evil to the core" (???). Would you care to elaborate? maybe try quoting Calvin to explain yourself. Remember, you are responding to my post saying I don't understand why people are against calvinism.
manualboyca 6 months ago
@manualboyca I would very much like to elaborate, but it is not possible here. I could write a book about it. You said you cannot understand why people, who are against Calvinism, think it is evil, and I gave you my reasons. How I came to these conclusions? By simple spiritual discernment and by attentive listening to preachers who endorse it. Not to mention bible study.
I really would like to elaborate this more but absolutely not possible here and now
sonoffalconqueen 6 months ago
@sonoffalconqueen I'm a someone who leans a little more towards Calvin's teachings, I don't think you really understand it's teachings fully. Possibly you are thinking more in regards to hyper-Calvinists, but to think it is evil to the core is such a gross misconception. Many people are saved from Churches that teach the doctrines of the Sovereignty of God, how can that be evil? I myself was an atheist who was an enemy to God who was regenerated in an instant to love God.
DerZanDa 6 months ago
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sonoffalconqueen 6 months ago
@DerZanDa I come from an atheistic background too, was not raised Christian. Yes, my conversion was like a call from Jesus, he found me; he is the author of my faith. But I don’t need TULIP to explain things to me. They believe in limited atonement. They may very much get it: Matthew 22: 36-40 James 2:13
sonoffalconqueen 6 months ago
@sonoffalconqueen I don't believe in Limited atonement for one, I follow the teachings of Jesus not John Calvin. John 10:25-29, Jesus teaches about those who are not of his flock cannot believe, the flock is those that are predestined for salvation. "For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. Romans 9:15-16
DerZanDa 6 months ago
@DerZanDa John 10 is about the Jews, he speaks to THEM. They are rejected (if they do not believe in Jesus). John 10:16 is about gentiles, who believe. John 10:26 are the Jews, who do not believe (scribes, Pharisees, etc). They prefer to continue in the old covenant sacrifices, they prefer to do works. They are not His sheep.
sonoffalconqueen 6 months ago
@DerZanDa The same in Romans 9. God chose Jesus, (symbolized by Jacob here), the New Covenant, and rejected Esau, Israel, the Old Covenant. Old covenant is the firstborn, new is younger, but in the new covenant (Jacob=Jesus) there is the eternal blessing and love. Those who believe in Jesus are chosen because Jesus is chosen from the beginning of times and with him ALL who believe in him. God knows the hearts of men so he knows who believes.
sonoffalconqueen 6 months ago
@DerZanDa Those who work (old covenant sacrifices or try to please God with religious works) are flesh; those who believe and receive the Holy spirit are born again in Spirit. Flesh (Esau) is rejected, hated; Spirit (Jesus) is eternal, loved. No flesh shall boast before God!
sonoffalconqueen 6 months ago
I never understand people who are SO against "calvinism" like it is some evil thing. Calvin spent more time studying the Word of God than anyone does nowadays. What he found in scripture is this: the most important thing in the universe is God's glory. Everything else stems from that one fact. If we treasure the glory of God as much as God treasures His own glory, we are on the right path.
manualboyca 6 months ago
@manualboyca Calvinism destroys the gospel completely. It has some correct theological premises, but it denies the Spitit of Christ. It proclaims the elect«, not God. It is carnal to its very core, it has no Spirit, it makes emphasizes there where there should not be any made. It wants to protect the sovereignty of God but actually completely denies it in practice. It is pure rebellion and hatred toward everything that is pure, simple and merciful. It is evil to the core!
sonoffalconqueen 6 months ago
G.) with mans attempt to get to God and mans attempt to get something from God! It's not what we get out of Him, though it it a consequence of salvation, but it's what God can get out of us! I hope and pray that this reaches your heart and not your head and may God bless you truly with the wisdom and knowledge that only comes from intimate fellowship with Him that burns with the flame of joy that cannot be quenched.
mtaylor1986 6 months ago
F.) "Coint the cost" that's not something you say to someone that doesn't have a choice. And God gives us that control and that choice and that freedom because He loves us so much that He's willing to leave it to chance that someone might genuinely love Him with the same genuine love that He first loved us with! I don't appologise for the truth of the Word of Christ, I do appologise if this has come across harshly and not in love because that is all I have for you my brother. But I'm done
mtaylor1986 6 months ago
E.) the Word of God is VERY clear! "come ALL who are who are burdened and heavy laden and find rest for your souls!" To be called in the Greek means "to be conformed to His saving purpose" and that can happen to any man, any woman, any boy, and any girl who is is willing to give up control of their own life, surrender it to Christ and pick up their cross and follow the only one worth following, Lord Jesus the Son of God. "Because in this life you will suffer", therefore,
mtaylor1986 6 months ago
D.) He has millions of angels to do that. That also tells me that if God is in control of everything then He is in control of all the sick, perverse things that happen to people that actually stems from the wickedness of mans heart. No! With a human being, Gods created sons and daughters, God wants genuine people to GENUINLY WANT AND LOVE HIM!!!! So don't bring up God's soveriegnty unless you know the heart of God and His will. This all I have to say I will not debate this any further because
mtaylor1986 6 months ago
C.) the Word of God. In Gods goodness and mercy and grace, He has chosen all men to have the opportunity for salvation. And if you even think for one second that Gon chooses some and not other reveals the heart of the person and puts them on a higher place in their own mind, whether you want to or not that's what happens in the the mind of someone that believes this Calvinist bullcrap. It sickens me when people think that God just wants robots who will think and do everything He wants them to
mtaylor1986 6 months ago
B.) is concerned with you being more like Jesus Christ! His wonderful Son! So lets put away this talk of "God's soveriegnty", because people nowadays wouldn't know what His sovereignty was if it hit them in the face. Erroring on the side of soveriegnty means absolutely nothing if its not making you more and more like Jesus Christ I don't care how good or biblical it sounds. Being apart of an elect group of people and not having to think or care how you get there is clearly against the word
mtaylor1986 6 months ago
A.) No I'm not saying that because piper believes in Calvinism and that man made, man centered doctrine is so against the Word of God and the heart of God it's ridiculous! "For God so loved the WORLD" it's the same in the Greek and the Hebrew, that means every single person on the planet created for all time has been given the opportunity for salvation and God loves you enough to give you a choice to not choose Him!! That's what the bible says! And you want to know what God's sovereignty
mtaylor1986 6 months ago
@mtaylor1986 Though you and I are on the same page with this "sovereignty" deception, I'm unwilling to accept your misrepresentation of God's Word because of our agreement in part. You're ignoring a significant amount of Scripture and it's because you're simply on the opposite side of the doctrinal paradox and neither of you will listen.
Assuming you're reasonable, you'd ask, "What am I ignoring?"
Prov 16:4, John 6:44,15:16, 19, Eph 1:4, Rev13:8, 17:8. 20:15 and MANY more Scriptures.
911dispatcher 6 months ago
@mtaylor1986 cont2 Please read those last three Scriptures at the same time and give serious thought to the clear "Calvinist" message and the implications of them all (I'm not a Calvinist; neither am I an Arminian). Because you're WILLINGLY doctrinally blind, you might look at those verses and without considering their CLEAR meaning dismiss them because they don't agree with what you believe and have stated clearly here.
Well, for me, it's you or the Bible. Which do you think I'll pick?
911dispatcher 6 months ago
Unfortunately piper is so rapped up in his doctrine and knowledge that he fails to see the simplicity of the gospel. God does give us a choice because He loves us! Because what good would it be to make a bunch of robots and say 'hey you have free will.... Not!'. That's not God, that's not love. Piper fails to realize that it is very plainly states in the bible about Gods sovereignty and mans free will if you just read the bible for what it says and stop trying to put this cloud of mystery aroun
mtaylor1986 6 months ago
@mtaylor1986 Do you mean, that, unfortunately, Piper is so wrapped up in what the Bible says? It teaches both; we somehow choose in the midst of God's sovereign election. It's a mystery since God is infinite and we are finite but always drift toward the sovereignty of God in all things; you are on pretty safe ground since the Bible teaches it.
ToshiroHoshi 6 months ago
@ToshiroHoshi It's NOT A MYSTERY -- IT'S A CONTRADICTION and BAD THEOLOGY.
As I've said before, you pervert the meaning of the word "sovereign." The Scripture is clear that God does whatever he pleases. It is also clear that men have the authority and power to make decisions on their own. Your inability to understand how God can accomplish his sovereign will with man's sovereign will doesn't require the completely absurd leap that God is actually controlling all man's decisions.
911dispatcher 6 months ago
cont3
You think "sovereign" means that God makes all the decisions? Give the Scriptural evidence for it. It's only takes two or three Scriptures that say the same thing to validate your point and the Bible is a big Book. Go for it.
Just make sure your reasoning is sound and your word definitions are accurate.
Truth isn't truth because the preacher said it and you like the preacher. Truth is what God has said and it's written for us in the Word of God. So, this should be easy.
911dispatcher 6 months ago
cont2
What God, in His sovereignty has done is declare that He rules over all (rulership means authority, not micromanaging every decision). "Free will," while not a Scriptural term, is nevertheless an obvious truth and if God controlled everyone's decisions, then He would be unrighteous to judge men for their being obedient to His control, which He determined, not them. It's not really hard to see how stupid this very wrong concept of "sovereign" is. As I've invited several to do I invite all.
911dispatcher 6 months ago
To all: What so many of you, including Piper, don't understand (and erroneously don't believe) is that is that God never claimed that He CONTROLLED ALL DECISIONS. (This is what you're claiming when you tout (your misunderstanding of) "God is sovereign!" God indeed is sovereign, just like Nebuchadnezzar was sovereign over the earth but that didn't mean that he, or God control every decision that is made. This is a very WRONG understanding of "sovereign."
cont1
911dispatcher 6 months ago
"Sovereignty" doesn't mean "totally in control" if "totally in control" means God's behind everything that happens. The definition for "sovereignty" is in the dictionary and it is correct. People like Piper pervert the meaning of the word to give God the responsibility for things He's not done. He told Adam to not eat the fruit. To say that God is responsible for Adam's eating is a perversion of "sovereignty" but fundamentalists like to embrace that perversion, regardless of the scenario.
911dispatcher 7 months ago
@911dispatcher you are wrong. God is sovereign in every way. He knew of Adam's sin before adam was even made. He knew that he would have to send his son to die for us on a cross before the Earth was even made. And its incredible how much he loves us to do to that. He has and will always be in control.
hermanlovesrockband 7 months ago
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911dispatcher 7 months ago
@hermanlovesrockband I'm wrong about what? The definition of "sovereignty." You must be too lazy to use a dictionary. I suspect your thinking is so simplistic and you're so brainwashed by religious nonsense, that you really haven't given this subject enough thoughtful consideration because if you did, you'd come to the conclusion that you've believed lies.
I invite you to think. AS you're thinking, justify EACH thought with "two or three witnesses" from Scripture according to Deut. 17:6.
911dispatcher 7 months ago
@hermanlovesrockband I think you're completely and perfectly WRONG. However, I believe the Bible, not what preachers tell me. So, if you can find "two or three witnesses" as the Scriptures require for establishing truth, then I'll be more than happy to believe those Scriptures. (I hope that's not a new doctrine for you -- if it is I can gladly show it to you in the Old and New Testaments.)
Good luck. I'll be waiting (but not holding my breath).
911dispatcher 6 months ago
@hermanlovesrockband You need to quit perverting the meaning of the word "sovereign."
I'm sure you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, thinking you're glorifying God -- and you are saying some good things about Him. But to say it's God's decision when a mother bends over and drops her baby on the concrete on his head and it's God's decision when a person driving leans over to reach for something and runs over someone, your irresponsibility is inexcusable. You're testifying THERE ARE NO ACCIDENTS!
911dispatcher 6 months ago
@911dispatcher on a human level of course there are accidents... But God could have stopped said accident and didn't, so as far as God is concerned there are no accidents.
People do all sorts of things that they don't mean to do, or weren't trying to do, but God (who's ways and thoughts are higher than our own) Ordains or allows everything that happens for His reasons.
EverydayRevival 6 months ago
@hermanlovesrockband How smart do you need to be to understand that the Bible doesn't define the word "sovereign." The dictionary does, however and dictionaries don't give the word the definition you give it. You've assumed, presumed and misapplied Scripture to say there are no accidents and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that with free will comes the inevitability of errors and accidents. You're incredibly stubborn and irrational to refuse to see the obvious.
911dispatcher 6 months ago
@911dispatcher God ordains all things in the universe... If anything happens then God must have allowed it for some reason... but His ways are higher then ours, and his thoughts are higher than ours. God is all-powerful and is never surprised by anything because He actively ordains ALL things.
Sovereign means absolute and total control, without limitation or restraint.
"according to the good pleasure of His own will"
Shall not the judge of all the earth do right?!
Grace and Peace
EverydayRevival 7 months ago
@EverydayRevival "God ordains all things in the universe." Oh really? Sorry, I believe the Bible; you'll have to show it to me. You have Deut. 17:6 to start with and the first thing I want to know is your definition and Scriptural support of your definition of "ordain." Next, give me "two or three witnesses" that justify your second remark.
Your definition for "sovereignty" is wrong, but I welcome you to use Scripture to prove it. Just tell yourself the truth and don't give me inapplicable cont
911dispatcher 7 months ago
@EverydayRevival cont2 Scripture. This will be a chore for you because you've already shown that you're "fast and loose" with the truth... but you can do it. Discipline your mouth (or should I say your fingers?).
The problem is that you're confusing the truth of Ps. 115:3 and 135:6 with a misunderstanding of "sovereignty." Sorry, friend, but your problem is the same as the guy to whom I just responded. Part brainwashing with religious nonsense, part lack of thoughtfulness, & most cont2
911dispatcher 7 months ago
@EverydayRevival cont3 importantly, a failure to give the Word of God enough attention. Jesus said very plainly, "If you ABIDE in My Word, THEN you are TRULY My disciples AND you SHALL know the truth and the truth SHALL MAKE YOU FREE. Now, you've heard that verse raped by the Baptists as they REMOVED the contingency of vs. 31 from their quoting of it. The Baptists have a bad habit of perverting virtually every precious truth in God's holy Word. Nevertheless, the Lord knows who are His. cont3
911dispatcher 7 months ago
@EverydayRevival cont4 I heartily recommend that you do a few things. Learn how to pray so that you can get answers (Mark 11:23-26). Learn how to read the Bible so that you can hear God (John 10:27), and learn how to be honest with what God's Word says (Matt 22:29) and not simply parrot the preachers that you like (Luke 6:39).
2Cor13:5 What does that mean to you? Do you meditate on Scripture? Do you hear God talk to you? Do you get answers after you realize the you've misinterpreted a verse?
911dispatcher 7 months ago
@EverydayRevival If you haven't been confronted with serious issues that made you question and examine what you believe, you're a novice and you've simply swallowed simple yet vain answers without giving enough serious thought and believing prayer to them. I've spent far more time on this than you have and you're sloppy to hand me such an empty answer that can easily be torn apart with many Scriptures that you haven't even bothered to consider. "God's ways are higher" is a convenient cop-out.
911dispatcher 7 months ago
@EverydayRevival cont B It's so convenient that you simply shift your brain into neutral and don't concern yourself with it. That's SPIRITUAL SLOTHFULNESS. What do you do with the entire 2nd chapter of 1Cor? I know what you do with it. You ignore it. Why? Because "God's ways are higher than our ways." You're spiritually LAZY. Read the chapter AGAIN AND AGAIN, until it dawns on your lightning fast brain that we have a "better covenant based on better promises" (Heb8:6) and God didn't lie when
911dispatcher 7 months ago
@EverydayRevival cont C He said, "But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things." The word "know" in the Greek means "perceive" and the word "thing" isn't in the text; it was added by the translators and "all" means "all." If you put all those Scriptures together and pray about it and EXERCISE YOUR FAITH, you're going to see that you have a much greater sonship that you've grasped and you can hear Him better than what's been represented to you.
BTW, I heard your testimony.
911dispatcher 7 months ago
@EverydayRevival Just so you'll know, I didn't address 2Cor5:18 because it's not applicable. if you're incorporating that into your perspective, then you've misunderstood that verse and we can discuss it later.
Take to heart and meditate on 1Cor2:14, 1Cor2:10 and Heb 11:6 and consider why I gave them to you in that order.
God has more for you than you know, but you MUST NOT see men as your pattern or example. You must by faith hear and let God quicken your imagination. ABIDE in the WORD.
911dispatcher 7 months ago
@EverydayRevival It will help you out, Chris, if you'll give much serious thought to the reason for preachers perverting the meaning of "sovereign." It makes their life MUCH easier. It's an excuse not to study, not to seek God for understanding, not to give people the hard answers they don't want to hear, and worst of all, it's a great excuse for unbelief. Just blame God with pious words and claim, "His ways are higher."
But try to reconcile in your HEART that rape and torture are God's will.
911dispatcher 7 months ago
@EverydayRevival My response to you is the same as to hermanlovesrockband
Take your time, search the Scriptures and find the evidence for what you're saying.
It's not I, but you who doesn't understand what "sovereign" means. IF (and that's a very big "if") you can find two or three Scriptures that say "God ordains all things in the universe," meaning that He approves everything that happens, then I'd very much like to see those Scriptures.
Again, I'll be waiting.
911dispatcher 6 months ago
@911dispatcher 2Ch 20:6 And said, O LORD God of our fathers, art not thou God in heaven? and rulest not thou over all the kingdoms of the heathen? and in thine hand is there not power and might, so that none is able to withstand thee?
Deu 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
Psa 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
EverydayRevival 6 months ago
@911dispatcher Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Gen 45:5 Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life.
Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good to bring to pass as it is this day to save much people alive
Pro 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD
EverydayRevival 6 months ago
@911dispatcher Exo 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I WILL HARDEN HIS HEART, that he shall not let the people go.
Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
EverydayRevival 6 months ago
@911dispatcher 1Sa 16:14-16 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an EVIL SPIRIT FROM THE LORD troubled him. And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an EVIL SPIRIT FROM GOD troubleth thee. Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the EVIL SPIRIT FROM God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well.
should I continue?
EverydayRevival 6 months ago
@EverydayRevival Continue? Continue giving me random Scriptures that do absolutely nothing to justify your position?
If you want to continue to look like you have the reading comprehension of a small child, go ahead.
This issue isn't hard to understand. You're just playing stupid.
911dispatcher 6 months ago
@EverydayRevival The issue here is NOT whether God has power and authority to do what He wants to do. The issue is whether God CONTROLS ALL MEN'S DECISIONS.
I don't want to appear rude, but again, you're playing like you're stupid and cannot understand simple word definitions.
There are many Scriptures that show God DOES WHATSOEVER HE PLEASES. To pretend that is the same thing as "He controls all men's decisions" is ONCE AGAIN pretending you're too stupid to understand.
I hope that's not true
911dispatcher 6 months ago
@EverydayRevival You left out several verses in Ps. 75 and Prov 21:1further supports God's authority over the realm of men but neither do anything to justify the stupidity of the false doctrine that God makes all men do everything they do. In the same 21st proverb, after saying He turns the king's heart wherever He wishes, the psalm then spends much time giving wisdom about men's responsibility to CHOOSE the right things to do.
Your insistence on playing stupid isn't helping you learn.
911dispatcher 6 months ago
@911dispatcher God sovereign he's dealt with like you before...
Job 33:12-13 Behold, in this thou art not just: I will answer thee, that God is greater than man. Why dost thou strive against him? for he giveth not account of any of his matters.
I never said He approves of sin or the evil deeds of men just that He knows things we don't about what He allows to happen in His creation.
"Truth is what God has said"... that's right... and God has said that He's in control of everything.
EverydayRevival 6 months ago
@EverydayRevival You REALLY need to engage your brain. "He ... allows to happen" IS NOT the equivalent of "He CONTROLS all men's decisions." To understand your error and to understand the Word of God on the differences in these two very different positions requires an openness to the the truth of God's Word which you apparently don't have. "Allowing to happen" isn't a Biblical doctrine. It's not even sloppy exegesis. It's the answer of someone who doesn't understand God's revelation.
911dispatcher 6 months ago
@EverydayRevival You NEED to give this subject much more time by meditating on what the Word of God actually says and not your opinion about what it means. God can and will give you light on it if you'll exercise your faith to receive and give your thoughts to understanding His Word instead of trying to dictate what it means. You don't understand enough about this subject to be putting forth opinions on it. Sorry, but that's just the facts. However, your lack of understanding is typical.
911dispatcher 6 months ago
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911dispatcher 6 months ago
@EverydayRevival cont2 Let me know how it goes. Pay careful attention to the look in his eye when you tell him that and beware.
Then tell him that Jesus died for him and loves him more than he realizes. Then remind him again that God must have wanted his daughter raped and murdered or it wouldn't have happened because God is in control of everything.
Are you REALLY that stupid to believe that religious CRAP?
Only religious stupidity is that stupid. You blaspheme God instead of honor Him.
911dispatcher 6 months ago
@EverydayRevival BTW, you did give some good Scriptures of which more Believers should be aware. They do make some great points that many don't understand. God can and does do whatsoever He pleases, but those things you acknowledge you don't know about... well, they're not unknowable.
Your 2nd paragraph is a lie because you very plainly said God was behind it all -- that's what "God is in CONTROL" means. If God controls, then every diseased and starving child is His will. Face what you say.
911dispatcher 6 months ago
@EverydayRevival The implications of what you pretend is true are so untenable that one has to be religiously brainwashed to hold to such an absurd doctrine. If what you say is true, then the atheists are correct when they accuse God of being a cruel and malevolent creator who takes pleasure in watching people suffer. To suggest that God COULD arbitrarily stop evil but DOESN'T WANT TO makes him a malicious and evil god who is a colossal hypocrite to enjoy evil while telling us to be holy.
911dispatcher 6 months ago
@EverydayRevival cont B It doesn't take a smart man to see how absurd such a thing is. God is good and your religious fantasy doesn't match the facts. I told you why men preach such stupidity and you SHOULD take a lesson to believe the Word of God over the opinions of men, regardless of how much you "like" them.
God's Word is absolute truth and anytime there appears to be a discrepancy, it's ALWAYS in one's understanding of what's written. I'm familiar with all the Scriptures you mentioned
911dispatcher 6 months ago
@EverydayRevival cont C and some of them challenge the understanding of young Believers because they seem "hard." I'm sure you've applied the same idea to the extreme position you've adopted but you've gone too far. satan and adam's sin have brought evil on this world and while God's judgment and wrath "appear" evil to one who doesn't rightly divided the Word of truth, it's ludicrous to attribute all evil to God's judgment and wrath. Therefore, God doesn't deserve "credit" for evil for which
911dispatcher 6 months ago
@EverydayRevival cont D He's not responsible. We can EASILY see this in purposes and provisions of Christ's redemption. Consider Acts 10:38 "You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good, and healing all who were oppressed by the devil; for God was with Him."
Again, one doesn't have to be smart to see that if Jesus was healing those the devil oppressed, then the oppression wasn't God's will nor was it under His control
911dispatcher 6 months ago
@EverydayRevival cont E otherwise God would be fighting His own "control" by flowing through Jesus in compassion and love to heal, deliver and perform miracles for people. Now, this is so obvious that we shouldn't even be having this discussion. The exceptionally stupid doctrine that you've parroted is wicked and evil and it's authored by the father of lies who wants to confuse people about God's goodness and benevolence. I could give MANY more examples that contradict the absurdity you've
911dispatcher 6 months ago
@EverydayRevival cont F put forth but hopefully you've decided to stop and consider the great redemption of the Lord and with enough consideration of His redemptive promise you can "wake up" from this blasphemous doctrine that IGNORES the character of God revealed in the redemption of the Lord Jesus. The Law was given through Moses but GRACE AND TRUTH came by Jesus Christ. We have a BETTER covenant based on BETTER promises and they ARE NOT God "working against Himself."
Meditate on His
911dispatcher 6 months ago
@EverydayRevival cont G promises for a few weeks and see how contrary His goodness and redemptive promises are to the idea that He's the one making everyone's life hard. He said, "I am come that men might have life and have it more abundantly." If all the evil were God's doing, then the redemptive promises that we've been given through faith in the Lord Jesus are contrary to the will of God and God was resisting His own will in sending Jesus. That's absurd. God DOESN'T CONTROL everything and
911dispatcher 6 months ago
@EverydayRevival cont H and the facts that 1) He's told us to pray and 2) told us to bless and curse not and 3) that whatever we ask believing we shall receive and 4) told us that "this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith" tell us that God isn't CONTROLLING everything, but that we have authority and power just like Jesus did to "undo" the works of the devil. If you'll look at the Greek in 1Jn 3:8, you'll see that's a good way to translate the word. Now, again, if God's in
911dispatcher 6 months ago
@EverydayRevival cont I control, then why is Jesus fighting God's control (and sending us "in the same way" Jn 20:21) to fight God's control and why is Jesus so stupid that He doesn't understand that God is behind all the evil works for which Jesus is giving the devil credit?
I could go on and on and on until I write a book, but there's already a GOOD BOOK written that explains all this and you just need to BELIEVE IT instead of stupid preachers.
NO SCRIPTURE SAYS GOD CONTROLS EVERYTHING.
911dispatcher 6 months ago
@EverydayRevival NEW POINT. Now, because you're so thoroughly brainwashed with this absurdly blasphemous doctrine, and you're looking at what I've said like a calf looking at a new gate, the point the devil will like to give you is this: "I'm right (the devil always speaks in first person, pretending he's you so that you'll accept his lies as your own thoughts) because Jesus is God and when He does something, it's always the will of God. I never said that the devil never did anything. I just
911dispatcher 6 months ago
@EverydayRevival cont 1 said that God was in control of everything and Jesus "fixing" what the devil messed up shows that God is in control."
At some point, a BELIEVER needs to decide to BELIEVE the Bible; not the opinions of men. I asked you for "2 or 3 Scriptures" that said "God controls everything" and you never produced ONE because there are none. It's past time for you to recognize that you swallowed religious nonsense and repent for it.
None of us know it all. We're all still learning.
911dispatcher 6 months ago
@911dispatcher "fixing" what the devil messed up? In Revelation Jesus is called the lamb slain BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD... All of creation was made for Christ, the fall, sin's effect on the world, fallen human history, the unbelief of God's people, all of it... exists only to point to Christ, as our Lord, and Savior.
Jesus Christ and the glorious plan of redemption certainly IS NOT A BACK-UP PLAN!
Christ IS NOT A PLAN "B"!
Salvation is the revelation God's love and mercy,
EverydayRevival 6 months ago
@EverydayRevival You're not telling me anything that I don't already know and you're not telling me anything that supports your original (yet sloppy, careless and thoughtless) position that God controls everything. Tell me about the rapes of your loved ones and that God did it. Tell me about the tragedies of friends and how you told their families, "God did this to you." APPLY the stupidity you proclaim to real life and see it works.
You pontificate with Scripture at a distance from reality.
911dispatcher 6 months ago
@EverydayRevival Actually, it's not too late for you to say. "Well,, I think you're right. I said 'control' but I guess what I really meant was 'ultimate control,' meaning that nothing escaped God's knowledge nor His ability to handle."
Your lack of thoughtfulness on this issue has left you with God getting all the credit for all the devil's work because "God is in control." Many teach this nonsense, saying stupid things like, "The devil is just God's errand boy." You FOOLISHLY INVITE blasphemy
911dispatcher 6 months ago
@911dispatcher Everyone of those verses I listed proves without a doubt that God is in control of everything.
We are to determine what we believe about God according to the Word of God...
We are not to determine what the Word of God means according to what we believe...
Paul says the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation... not a just choice or a "decision"
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
EverydayRevival 6 months ago
@EverydayRevival You have a shallow mind and it is clear that you were NEVER a debating champion for your reasoning skills are very poor. None of the Scriptures you listed prove that God murders, rapes and tortures people for pleasure, because all those things get done and you're testifying that God did it.
Your pride is stronger than your reason. That's for sure.
911dispatcher 6 months ago
@911dispatcher That is ridiculous and this is no longer constructive.... I never said that God did any of that stuff for pleasure or that He does it at all... your argument is wrong and your tactics shameful please understand that I wasn't trying to win a debate.
So in your mind God doesn't have the power to stop those things?
Or does He not know they're going on?
You do believe that He's a God of Love don't you?
So why do these things happen if God doesn't have a plan for it?
EverydayRevival 6 months ago
@EverydayRevival It never was constructive. You NEVER sought for understanding. You attacked me with random Scriptures which didn't prove your contention and wouldn't examine your lack of cogent rebuttal. "Everyone of those verses I listed proves without a doubt that God is in control of everything," were your words and now you want to back off without acknowledging you erred, and NOW you want me to give you understanding, but understanding comes from God. You neglected Scripture that countered
911dispatcher 6 months ago
@EverydayRevival your perspective and your perspective painted God as the evil doer and with the plain testimony of Scripture that "God alone is good" and "all His works are in faithfulness" and many other verses that show that portraying God as the evil doer isn't right, you pressed on without questioning your obvious error which I pointed our several times. Most people realize that there are things they don't understand but you pretended you "got it" even though the results of your position
911dispatcher 6 months ago
@EverydayRevival were blasphemous in most people's understanding and misrepresented God. You did have Scripture on your side, but you don't have enough understanding to be so carelessly promoting something where your understanding is obviously lacking.
When we don't understand something, it's time to pray, seek God, read the Word and ask God for wisdom and understanding, not stubbornly insist on a point when ti's not really that hard to see something doesn't fit.
911dispatcher 6 months ago
@EverydayRevival NONE of us "knows it all" but we believe God's testimony that He is "true and righteous all together." We believe, by faith, that He does no evil. Therefore, it's not hard to see that when someone attributes evil to Him, we conclude that person doesn't understand something because God has declared that He is just.
Just as you have one, two or three reasons to do something, God might have a hundred reasons. It really is ok to say, "I don't know," since we don't know SO MUCH.
911dispatcher 6 months ago
Thank God I believe The Word of God and how it was taught for 2000 years and don't have to follow some man named Piper or even others 1400 years after Jesus. Free will, love and personal relationship and responsibility are basic Christian doctrines that should not puzzle someone like piper, unless he missed the basics of the Orthodox Christian faith!
1integrity 7 months ago
@1integrity Even though there is great wisdom, revelation, understanding and knowledge in Scripture, the things you mention are simple and obvious truths.
911dispatcher 6 months ago
@911dispatcher I think maybe there's a way for you to express the logic of your thoughts without expressing some of the negative emotions toward EverydayRevival. I think it would be a good testament to any unbelievers who stumble upon this thread if they found Christians debating gently and peacefully, and not insulting each other. I mean, what's the point of saying, "You have a shallow mind" and "your pride is stronger than your reason"?
jmmanley 6 months ago
@jmmanley I recognize the lack of "ALL patience." I get frustrated and impatient when people don't listen and don't even try to understand. It's a fault.
Nevertheless, I also recognize that not only are the points you make in Scripture, but we also have the examples of Jesus and Stephen addressing the Pharisees, Paul addressing Elymas and even the high priest, James addressing his Christian readers, calling them "adulterers and adulteresses" and Jude's remarks. I think Ecc. 3:1 gives insight.
911dispatcher 6 months ago
@911dispatcher I would think someone who feels he is confident in the Scriptures would be well aware of the numerous commands in Scripture to speak lovingly and purely to one's neighbor, to return good for evil, to be patient and gentle, etc. I would think these rules apply even when debating. And I would think that we shouldn't grieve the Spirit.
jmmanley 6 months ago
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youneekk 8 months ago
Hebrews 11...Enoch had this testimony, that he PLEASED GOD. He was a natural man living before the Atonement was made.
mastersman1 8 months ago
You would think he could look at that complete schism in rationality and realize that at least one of the two suppositions is false... instead he turns a blind eye to understanding the fundamental problem of sin which is the entire purpose of the incarnation. This theological framework is fundamentally flawed.
chapdaddy 8 months ago
@chapdaddy which would you like to choose to be false?
iamtamarichka 7 months ago
@iamtamarichka I don't have to choose anything... Orthodoxy doesn't have this problem.
chapdaddy 7 months ago
@chapdaddy no you are declaring one must be false, so which is it?
iamtamarichka 7 months ago
@iamtamarichka The entire framework is wrong. What I said was, if you apply logic to the discrepancy, you must come to (at the very least) the realization that one of the 2 "biblical truths" has to be false. In other words, his understanding of "biblical truths" is suspect when, by his own admission, they cannot be resolved.
chapdaddy 7 months ago
@chapdaddy No both are true, God is in control of everything & man has to be responsible for his actions. We are to have faith and trust God in this. Just because you cannot understand it does not make it untrue. This is where faith comes in. Look at Job, God allowed Satan to come against Him yet He held Job responsible for his attitude and actions. He basically said who are you to question me the God of the Universe. We must trust and obey knowing God is working things out for His Glory.
iamtamarichka 7 months ago
@iamtamarichka Think for one second... Piper said "God is ultimately, decisively in control of those decisions" for which humans are held accountable. It's not that this holds some great mystery... it's that the theology behind it is flawed. If you can't see that, you aren't worth any more of my time.
chapdaddy 7 months ago
@chapdaddy i guess i am not worth anymore of your time. I pray God reveals more and more of Himself to you as you seek His face. Be of good courage brother, God is amazing and we must trust Him in all things :)
iamtamarichka 7 months ago
He pretty much states my opinion, except for some semantics about the terminology of 'free will.'
TWO things MUST be True, in Christianity according to the Bible:
1. Humans are responsible for their decisions
2. God is in control of everything
Fundamentally it doesn't matter HOW you try to explain that scenario, as long as you do not deny either one of those holy truths. Upon pain of eternal death.
Just don't deny the truths. That is all.
dougmoerhoffman 8 months ago 2
He does it all the time. He did it to the Apostle Paul and many others in the bible times. I know God can change me. The question is do I trust Him ? Do I depend on Him? I want to do things my way. But the holy Spirit tells me to put my trust on the Lord. So it's a daily thing with me. Praying helps me calm me down.
How about you?
changeishere2008 9 months ago
@changeishere2008 I'm actually pretty secure right now. There are times, though, when things get tough that I really need to throw all my cares on the Lord. I'm really more of a Bible reader than a prayer, but of course, prayer is very important and I need to do it more.
God can change a person's heart. Indeed, He is the only One who can do that. Man cannot change his own heart by the strength of his own will. This is an essential point in Calvinism, well with the Bible: man NEEDS a Savior.
RomansGalatians 9 months ago
I know I have free will it makes no diffrence to me where its location is. I don't stop & say will where are you today? are you attached or detached to me? I know I have it. God told Adam & Eve not to eat from the tree. few minutes later they ate the tree. Jonah was told to go to Nineveh Jonah had other plans. King David knew the right from wrong never the less He had Bathsheba's husband killed.
Will all have free will. We knows we have free will. Some are in denial and in need help.
changeishere2008 9 months ago
Was Abraham Linconln led by demons when his Calvinist beliefs led him to free African Americans from oppression?
RomansGalatians 9 months ago
@RomansGalatians
I am not sure of Abrahm Lincoln's involvment with demons. i doubt he had any.
changeishere2008 9 months ago
@changeishere2008 Lincoln was a Calvinist and a great man.
Calvinists do not deny that people have a will. Of course we do. Yes, every time we make a decision, we use our will.
That is not the issue.
The issue is whether God can change a person's heart from being an evil God-hating person, to being a soft-hearted person who love God.
Of Course God can. But ask yourself: is it because that God-hating person CHOSE God?
RomansGalatians 9 months ago
@RomansGalatians I think there's an intricate interconnected series of relationships or sequence of events, either way, between God's sustaining power and our thoughts. Here's a simplified time-sensitive sequence example:
God created us and has revealed Himself-- Romans 1:20
Man has moral and intellectual autonomy, sustained by God's power, and uses it to yearn for God. He 'asks' to know God.
God CHOOSES the person.
The elected one cannot resist God's grace.
Does that kinda make sense? :)
dougmoerhoffman 8 months ago
@dougmoerhoffman Well, I think that it a Calvinist STARTS with man with good hearts in Adam & Eve.
But that is not so for everyone else, because everyone else is born after the FALL. Humpty Dumpty fell and cannot put himself back together, a condition that we were BORN INTO. This is the most important doctrine of Calvinism, from Romans 3, that man is born into TOTAL DEPRAVITY.
We do not love God, and have no desire to "yearn" for God. Thus God UNILATERALLY changes the person's heart.
RomansGalatians 8 months ago
@dougmoerhoffman Irresistible Grace is not so difficult for us to understand, as long as we remember that it is God's perview and responsibility to save.
Let me ask this: Do you trust a website on the Internet because you are such a trusting person, or because the keepers of the website have proven themselves trustworthy? Do you trust an employee who shows up to work on time because HE is trustworthy or because YOU are so trusting?
In the same way, we trust GOD because HE is trustworthy...
RomansGalatians 8 months ago
@dougmoerhoffman Not because I, THE GREAT ME, has so much faith.
Or another example, do you BELIEVE that a computer is sitting in front of you because you CHOSE and WILLED to believe it? No, you just DO believe it, because it's TRUE. Even if you decided "Hm, no I don't believe there's a computer here." It wouldn't matter, because that is not what you believe.
Belief and faith aren't matters of WILL POWER, its because it has been revealed to you that God is TRUE and TRUSTWORTHY.
RomansGalatians 8 months ago
That's something you have to answer for yourself. Since you know yourself More than I know you :)
It's good to examine your life!
changeishere2008 9 months ago