I like what you wrote in the description of this piece. Someone who got upset about "unsaved" people getting to Heaven would be very much like the older brother in the parable of the Prodigal Son. "Wait-- I followed You all my life, now THEY get the party?"
I hope that on that day I would be like "YES!!! You mean that in the end my Atheist DAD chose to come here, too? YES!!!!!! This is AWESOME!!! Now the party can begin!"
@frithar I think that the Great Feast of Heaven takes place when the last one comes in. WHo can hold out eternally against such a Love? In the end-- it may take a while-- but Love Wins!
Wake up! This holy God who can't stand sin, came down to the world, clothed in flesh and lived amongst us. The confusion lies in the fact of the mis-teaching of a lot of the christian story, not with Rob Bell!
Given time more people will discover that many of our medieval interpretations didn't reflect what the original biblical text meant. Rob just found that earlier and remains courageous. And not alone.
Good grief! God doesn't send anyone to hell! It's call free will! It's in Genesis.... first book of the Bible! A good place to start reading. If you want answers about God, look to the book he wrote himself.
I have recalled many past lives and "lives between lives." When I crossed over there was NO GOD throwing anyone into a fire pit. Jesus wasn't there to greet me, none of my sins had been forgiven. Heaven is huge. The 1st level is 10,000 times bigger than this universe. There are gazillions of SOULS from billions of galaxies coming and going, birth and death. This world is a school for us to learn and grow in. Constantine invented Hell and Salvation..both are myths, and are tests for SOUL.
"The Bible says you MUST accept Jesus to get into heaven." Even those who are familiar with the Bible may have wonderful reasons for turning to a different faith, or no faith at all. Some people can't believe in the unprovable. Their minds just don't work any other way. Does this mean they deserve eternal torment? Absolutely not, and any other view is sadistic and cruel. A selfless God would care more about how we treat His creations than how we treat Him. Bad ACTIONS should be punished.
telling it how it is from the heart. dispite what peoples brokenness will say about him. Thats why I like what he says. He challenges us all on the reality of the way we as humans have represented God in this world.
Rob is a Rock Star pastor. And, he has some compelling thoughts. The problem is he sets up caricature after caricature and uses proof-texts to overcome the issues his psyche cannot deal with. Rob has some good stuff in Love Wins. However, he's done a disservice to the Historical Biblical Christian faith in his book. His belief system is not truly historical Christianity - it's more Moralistic-Therapeutic-Deism. If you're good, and you've been wounded God's love with overcome. Ya, but
Rob is a Rock Star pastor. And, he has some compelling thoughts. The problem is he sets up caricature after caricature and uses proof-texting to overcome the issues his psyche cannot deal with. Rob has some good stuff in Love Wins. However, he's done a disservice to the Historical Biblical Christian faith in his book. His belief system is not truly historical Christianity - it's more Moralistic-Therapeutic-Deism. If you're good, and you've been wounded God's love with overcome. Ya, but
Another thought....I'll let God figure out where Ghandi belongs but history does teach us that he openly rejected Christianity. If Christianity is the door the Christ of God showed us then what is God to do with Ghandi if he willfully slammed the only open door God gave??? That doesn't mean he wasn't a good guy or did good deads but can being a good guy doing good deades save him. Isn't that what Cain thought, " I know what your holiness requires God but none the less here is MY offering..."
And what are you going to do with the subject of the fall and sin??? What are going to do with the words of Jesus "You MUST be born again". If I have to listen to the words of Rob Bell a new age heretic or Jesus - I think I'll go with Jesus. If we are all saved then shut up an go away Rob - I don't need you.
WOW, I wonder why a minister who says he is a "Christian" minister is so offended at the Bible, because that is exactly the driving force behind his new age teaching - and that is all it is. I am a devout Christian who was rescued from the New Age. I don't mean the coffee shop kind - I mean the kind where I met my spirit guides and they were suposed to lead me into truth. Then I met the Truth and his name is Jesus. Take God at His Word and let Him figure it all out and quit truing to be God.
Reality set aside, I think it's unlike God to send 2/3 of the world to hell because they were not predisposed to believe a set of ideas. This is brings up a lot of good questions that need to be addressed. How can such a good man like Gahndi be sent to hell because he was born in India were christianity didn't exist?
@LIGHTRONIX For Ghandi that wasn't the case, he was familiar with Jesus and christianity. Google Ghandi and Jesus. I know and believe that there will be many in heaven, many.
@TheMovieBuff91 I'm well aware of that book. And it's not actually written by Francis, just as love wins probably wasn't written entirely by bell (idk on that one though)
Paul said in Romans 9:2 I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers.
Instead of challenging the idea Christ himself established, accept it and let it be something that help drive you to prayer and preaching the real Good News, Christ died for our sins (which is why we deserve judgment). Read 1 Cor 15:1-9
Revelation 21:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
I don't think any believer in Christ with Christ's heart likes the idea of hell, but it's real and it's just, and that's why we should be preaching the gospel and praying for people...
About time I read something 100% true. There is hell and if you don't do what is expected of you, God is not throwing you in the lake of fire, your throwing yourself in it. God bless you all. :)
ugh...this makes me sad. God is a holy God & can't tolerate sin. Jesus rescues you from the power of sin! This is so insulting to the grace of God to say that Jesus is rescuing us from a God who would send people to Hell. This is so sad. :( This is how people get confused. The devil's using this to confuse people. Omgoodness..I used to like Rob Bell :(
" God is not the Author of Confusion." satan is sure winning lots of people with all his lies. There is hell. Ask for forgiveness, repent and don't do it again. If you repent, it comes from your heart not your mouth. It's a battle of the mind. Any bad thought, rebuke it, renew your thoughts and keep the tablets of the word of God in your heart. It's spiritual warfare. The Holy Spirit will guide you. Jesus will protect you and God will love it. :)
@carefulapathy18 Yo seem to be confused. God obviously made hell so he could enjoy watching most people burn in a big grotesque barbecue. Why else would he create the system to be like that? Its HIS system, he can create it however he wants... so he puts a torturer chamber in there? lol
It says the way to heaven is narrow. If we confess Christ as our Lord and Savior, we go to heaven. God is also a just God. Best to stick to the Bible, not Rob Bell. Best not to get caught up in who's going and who's not - God knows the heart.
"I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall return, that unto Me, EVERY KNEE shall bow, EVERY tongue shall swear, surely shall say, 'In the Lord have I righteousness and strength." Isaiah 45: 23, 24
"We trust in the Living God, Who is the Saviour of ALL men, especially (not exclusively) those who believe." 1 Timothy 4:10
"Fear not, I have the keys of Hell and death." Revelations 1: 17,18
@bbmmjjrr You say you believe the Bible is accurate. Would you even beliveve half the scriptures I quote to you? About the doctrine of endless hell...
God HIMSELF says He doesn't do this...
"I will not contend forever, neither will I always be wroth; for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made." Isaiah 57:16
"The Lord will NOT cast off forever, but though He causes grief will have compassion according to the multitude of His mercies. " Lamentations 3:31-33
“It is wholly inconceivable that [God should fail]. God has, in the face of angels and of men, before the universe and its gaze of wonder, entered Himself into the arena, become Himself a combatant, has wrestled with the foe, and has been defeated. I can bring myself to imagine those, who reject the Deity of Christ, as believing in His defeat; but it is passing strange that those who believe Him to be ‘very God Almighty,’ are loudest in asserting His failure [to save the world].”—Thomas Allin
It is true Jesus was the Christ. But Jesus who was God in the flesh was beaten for our healing and hung on a cross for our sins. All Christians have the Christ. But we are not all the Saviour of the world.
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Hell is the grave. Man is not an immortal being. Check out my article at Facebook, search Bible Insights. The name of the article is God and Eternal Punishment. I use dozens of Bible scriptures to support this.
@leonmaiolo I have come to realize that, in my understanding, the Christ spirit was doing the talking here. Not Jesus the man. Jesus was our Elder Brother, our Wayshower. He was also the Master who embodied the Christ Consciousness in a unique way. So it is true. Christ is the way, the truth and the life and no one comes to God except through the Christ. However, I personally believe, that the reference here is to the Universal Christ and not Jesus the man.
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Jesus is the only way to eternal life. Hell is the grave. Man is not an immortal being. Check out my article on facebook where I explain this with dozens of Bible versus. Facebook search Bible Insights and God and Eternal Punishment
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Jesus is the only way to eternal life. Hell is the grave. Man is not an immortal being. Check out my article on facebook where I explain this with dozens of Bible versus. Facebook search Bible Insights and God and Eternal Punishment
My little brother, who is a Christian, thinks it's absurd for anyone to claim anything about what happens after a person dies, because all of us are still alive.
i think the likes and dislikes sum this up, we are divvied in our opinions. As Christians lets not judge Rob Bell, and say he is wrong or right, but lets welcome the discussion. Lets separate God from Religion, lets spread the good news, but not by putting our beliefs on the line. Let this start conversation that will find more answers and a stronger faith for all involved. Lets not forget that we are all followers of Christ.
There is another Christian perspective! Since the early church fathers, the Orthodox Church has taught that heaven and hell are the same "place," both are in God's bosom. Some feel God's presence as paradise bc they have allowed Jesus to transform their hearts. Others feel God's presence as eternal torment bc their hearts are full of sin and can't bear the love of God. But both are in God's loving arms.
Bbmmijrr, I used to believe as you do. I’m now convinced that (a) limiting "all creatures" to believers is arbitrary and unwarranted and (b) the Lake of Fire is a temporary (Matt. 5:26, Luke 12:47-48, I Cor. 3:15) place of punishment & purification, and that, in the end, our Lord will not fail to accomplish what He came to earth to do, namely, to “save that which was lost.” Please check out the FAQ section of the Hope Beyond Hell site and/or google “Bell’s Hells Seven Myths”
very sad that he is leading so many people astray from the truth. the truth being that only people who believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior go to heaven, and everyone else goes to hell forever. sorry, but its the truth. Rob Bell is just giving people an excuse to live how they want to live which is in sin and still be saved because, well according to him, "Love Wins." why would Jesus humble himself and come to earth as a lowly human if everyone was saved... .just think about this.
@bbmmjjrr You could also ask why God would become a human, and experience every sinful thing any human being ever did to another, if not to forgive all of us.
@bbmmjjrr Sorry!? Have you even thought about what you're saying?
Imagine you are dead. You are in this palace with every luxury you could desire. Now this angel comes up to you and informs you that your three closest friends are in hell, and you will never see them again. He tells you that there is nothing you can do about it, and that you're stuck in heaven forever, with this knowledge.
Whenever I get thinking of the sort of afterlife you describe, heaven always turns into hell.
@MissJemimaPuddleduck of course I thought about it I thought about it my whole life I have considered the possiblilty of losing my friends which is why I constantly talk to them about God and Jesus. but also, I know that our God is a just God who will throw you into hell if you do not believe Jesus Christ as you Lord and Savior The reason why you go to hell is because of your own sin For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord Rom6:23
@bbmmjjrr And yet you still believe in a God who's justice looks like your friends being tortured forever? I would be terrified of him. And I would probably hate him. Besides, what does death even mean in that verse? And what does eternal life mean? Does eternal life mean heaven? I'm not sure it does.
@MissJemimaPuddleduck of course I still believe. we are supposed to fear God, like a child fears his father when he is caught doing something bad. we fear not only because it is just but also becuase we know we deserve it. The bible even says to fear God, "Let all the earth fear the LORD; let all the people of the world revere him" Psalm33:8 and there are many verses also saying that it is the beginning of understanding (prov1:7, psalm111:10, psalm2:11, Ecclesiastes12:13, and many more)
@bbmmjjrr Why do you believe? Why are you personally a Christian? It sounds excruciating. I don't know if I am a Christian. I think I'm probably having a spiritual crisis.
@MissJemimaPuddleduck I have many reasons why I believe (way too many to display on a youtube comment) in a nutshell, first because it makes sense second there is evidence that the Bible is the most accurate ancient document in the world, third because there are other historical documents supporting the Bible fourth because I have seen the differences between Christianity and other religions, and the list goes on. I am sorry if you are having a crisis I hope God leads you in the right direction
I think Mr. Bell is confused. Jesus does not rescue us from God, Jesus is God in the flesh. He rescues us from our sins. God so desperately wants to have a relationship with us, but our sins prevent that from happening. He cannot come near us when we are covered in sin. God is loving and merciful, he wants us to spend eternity in Heaven with him. However, not everyone accepts Jesus' sacrifice, thus they must suffer an eternity without God. It is not God's desire, but we bring it upon ourselves.
You’re right, Jesus is the only way. Fortunately, all will eventually find this way:
John 12:32: When I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men to myself.
I Cor. 15:22: For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
Revelation 5:13: “Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: ‘To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!’"
@tm755 ya, some of these are out of context, they are talking about believers, and believers only! look at Revelation 14:11 (English Standard Version)
11And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."
or
Revelation 20:15: "and anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."
Jude verse 4 &10 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves.
Jude verse 4 &10 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves.
One day you will stand before God and answer to God for all the lives you have brought to deception. JESUS IS THE ONLY ANSWER
The Middle Ages saw many errors creep into the church including Mary worship, celibacy for priests, a Hell that never ends, access to God only through the church, and the sale of indulgences for the salvation of loved ones, to name a few. The 16th century reformers did a pretty good job of correcting most of these, but they missed one. Ergo, Love Wins, and scripturally sound books by solidly evangelical authors such as Gerry Beauchemin, Thomas Talbott, Gregory MacDonald, and others.
Before we prejudge Rob's view on hell, we need to wait until the book comes out. I feel that this is one way to publicize his new book "Love Wins" that is coming out on March 29th. He is a guru when it comes to catching people's attention through short films like his Nooma DVD series. Considering he is a Wheaton College student, I doubt he advocates the no hell theology. Just notice all he does is raising interesting questions!
@amossunghopark ....It's easy to ask questions! Providing answers is the harder thing to do. The Emerging Church movement is this serpent scenario, 'did God really say?'... and let the chips fall where they may, the ignorant to their own devices, and the unchurched/underchurched to flounder and be deceived.
Before we prejudge Rob's view on hell, we need to wait until the book comes out. I feel that this is one way to publicize his new book "Love Wins" that is coming out on March 29th. He is a guru when it comes to catching people's attention through short films like his Nooma DVD series. Considering he is a Wheaton College student, I doubt he advocates the no hell theology.
What really interested me was while doing a bible study with a group of 50-80 yr olds the reflections that they came to were the same as what rob is saying. Not one of those in the group would have heard of rob bell.
The frog is being boiled alive very slowly. I'm alluding to the illustration i've heard before where if you take a frog and throw it in a pot of hot water, it will hop out immediatelly. But if you put it in a pot of water at room temperature, and turn up the heat ever so slowly, it will just sit there and boil to death. This is exactly what is happening to the american christian community.
But but.... it FEELS SOOO GOOOD... I mean doesn't that sound so loving?
"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. " 2 Timothy 4:3,4
More proof that the Bible is true. Perfect fulfilment of prophecy.
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
The Gospel of Matthew, Chapter 7, Verses 13 and 14 (1611 Authorized Translation, or KJV)
Jesus has said: "I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the father except through me."
It is Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of God, THE Christ, who saves us from the just punishment for our sins. He takes it upon himself to save whom he pleases.
Gandhi did not believe this truth. Gandhi was not called by Christ to repentance. Thus, we may say with some Scriptural authority that Gandhi is not among those saved, and thus not in heaven.
"We know how much God loves us, and we have put our trust in his love. God is love, and all who live in love live in God, and God lives in them."
Replace Jesus's name with all the things you can describe Him as; Love, mercy, kindness etc... Then you can have a different perspective when reading verses like 2 John 1:9. Sometimes our picture of God is distorted.
The question here is who is "us" in this verse. Is "us" mankind in general, or is it those whom he has redeemed? I agree that we can have a distorted view of God, but that is not the issue in this instance.
Ours is a God who "has mercy on whom he will have mercy." Not all will be saved, as the hearts of man are desperately wicked. Even our own righteousness is wickedness in His eyes.
God's Will is sovereign. No good works earn salvation. Those not in Christ are condemned already.
Rob, you are flat out wrong. God's Word doesn't teach this. You are being used by the devil to be a false teacher. The Bible warns us against you. Jesus died on the cross for sinners. To save us from sin, not God. He's saving us from hell. He also tells us that as Pastor's we will give an account of what we taught God's people. I wouldn't want to be in your shoes.
Jesus doesn't save us from God, he saves us from our own wicked hearts. It's sad to see someone so influential in Christianity to abandon the Bible, that is what really confusing non-believers. How are they expected to know the truth when they are being fed lies.
Androskovich, I share your belief that God, who is love, must sometimes exercise tough love and punish sinners. But do you believe that a punishment of trillions of ages of torment in Hell , repeated over and over again forever, fits the crime of 80 years of sin?
God doesn't send people to hell because they don't believe in Jesus... He sends people to hell because he is just and there must be punishment for crime (in this case, the violation of His holy law, which amounts to what we call sin). Jesus saves us from hell because He paid the ransom for our crime. "the wages of sin is death". That's the fine we owe, and Jesus paid it. Jesus took our sentence so that we can go free and justified.
... oh man... lets shut down the judicial system, release the murderers, rapists, etc... turns out we need to consider our own humanity before sending a serial killer to prison... after all, we are'nt perfect either... To assume that God would not punish sin is to assume that God is indeed NOT good, but corrupt. God is just, and so he MUST punish lawlessness... a category into which we all fall... (See next comment)
@thomat65 how do you know that's the context? I admire with what confidence you speak, but I think that you limit God to a book full of ways, truths, and lives, but is not the Way, the Truth, or the Life. I wish you love in finding that He is already in you and that He is beyond your understanding of that book.
Several people have raised some serious concerns about whether you are on par with Scripture or not and the dangers thereof. I hope you address these things, especially since reputable sources like Kevin DeYoung do an excellent job with things like "thegospelcoalition org/blogs/kevindeyoung/files/2011/03/LoveWinsReview pdf", even if it is dense.
P.S. I hope this comment passes the spam test since it's not just a link to another resource but rather a call to address concerns.
For those wishing to better understand Christian Universalism (not to be confused with all-roads-lead-to-God universalism or Unitarian Universalism), I recommend that you google "Gerry Beauchemin" , "biblicaluniversalist" and/or "tentmaker" .
a facebook user just commented "The fact that a representative of Union Theological Seminary approves Bell's book is practically Satan's own seal of approval."
Psalm 145:10a: All you have made will praise you, O Lord.
John 12:32: “When I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."
I Cor. 15:22: For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
Isa. 45:23: “By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear.”
Okay, I feel this is a marketing ploy, while i do not know much about Rob Bell, I do know Marketing. He said everything he said in the way he said it to create emotions in every person who sees this. Whether they are curiosity, anger, or some kind of relief that these questions seem to have an answer, which of course are in his book. So whether you angry, confused, or relieved, you have to read his book to really understand or know what he is truly stating in this video.
Also the person who posted this video is extremely off base. He obviously, like the rest of us, has yet to read the book. He is just guessing at what Rob Bell is saying. And if he is correct with his interpretation then I do not agree at all. Because God Loved the world so much that he gave us his son, wow, would you give your kid to a world of people to be killed? And without Hell there is no need for Jesus, which would totally destroy the whole point of Christianity
When asked did Jesus not say that the greatest commandment is to love the Lord you're God and the second was to love your neighbor as yourself? He could have said whatever he wanted but chose simply to remind us to love. Are we also not to look out for the poor, hungry, and naked? Rather than point at the speck in our brothers eye should we not take the plank from our own? Shouldn't he who has no sin cast the first stone? Who are we to say there is only one way to heaven...
God is just and pure and holy. The fact that He offers a way of redemption is evidence of His good will, and it really is good news. But He is just, and, though some people don't get it, justice demands recompense for wrongdoing. God offers a way for that recompense to come in the form of a man on a cross to those who believe in Him, but to those who would thumb their noses at a pattern that loving God laid out for redemption, justice is a dish served cold.
"We know how much God loves us, and we have put our trust in his love. God is love, and all who live in love live in God, and God lives in them."
Replace Jesus's name with all the things you can describe Him as; Love, mercy, kindness etc... Then you can have a different perspective when reading verses like 2 John 1:9. Sometimes our picture of God/Jesus is distorted.
God still loves us even as sinners and even when we are oppositional to Him. God is the very definition of love. I will read this book because I need to know what he is saying for sure before I start going on a rant over whether or not its biblically correct. By what he has said here it seems to be a book about reaching out to those that are against Christianity because of what they have been led to believe its about by hateful people, or by what their sinning selves have falsely argued.
If what Rob Bell proclaims in this video is true, then there is no reason to follow the righteous law of God. Might as well engage in all the carnality which the world can afford you if we all end up at the same place. But are you willing to take that risk?
@AaronTheContrarian So what exactly do you claim he is proclaiming? That we don't know the content of people's hearts? That an emphasis on the wrath of God rather than His Grace and the redeeming sacrifice of Christ might make church a scary and judgmental place. That much of the commonly held views on heaven and hell come from pagan and folklore images rather than Scripture? Who knows since the book hasn't come out yet. People thought Jesus, Paul, Luther, Calvin, Wesley, were heretics too
@danielelwinm1954 Jesus, Paul, Luther and Calvin were never called heretics because they contradicted Scripture... like Rob Bell is doing. And if you disagree, please show me where you have seen such things.
I find it slightly disturbing to find a group of supposed Christians acting like a bunch of "second handers" out of THE FOUNTAINHEAD or an Allen Drury book. Advertising videos are supposed to provocative to drum up interest. Reminds me of the brouhaha over the LAST TEMPTATION OF CHRIST or THE DA VINCI CODE people going on and on about how evil and ungodly something is because someone else said, "its evil" This is like deciding not to buy a car based solely upon the color of the brake pedal.
I don't know why you would find it disturbing that a bunch of 'supposed' Christians are doing EXACTLY what they are commanded to do by God.
Also, in this case, people are 'going on and on' about how evil and ungodly this is NOT because someone else said 'it's evil'; but rather because JESUS CHRIST says it's evil.
Seems as if you're advocating that we buy every car that comes along without even bothering to check it out to find out if it's safe.
@andypro7777 What I am advocating is precisely what you say I'm not. If I am going to buy a car I check it out completely before buying it. If I formulate an opinion I base it upon facts, not on frenzied Tweets or You Tube posts. Having read Rob Bell's books, visited his church, and view his videos I find some of these post about as informed as describing a dog based upon one of its teeth. As an ordained pastor and a student of the Bible I find that Jesus condemned nothing so much as judges.
Well, if you've read all of Bell's books, visited his church, etc, and you can't tell that he's not teaching the true, bibllical Christian faith, then you need to study your Bible more.
And it's also not surprising that you'd say that "Jesus condemned nothing so much as judges" Of course that doesn't hold up to scriptual evaluation at all. Yes, Jesus condemned UNRIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT, but it certainly wasn't the the thing he condemned most.
Can ANYONE tell me where in the Bible it says that those who dont believe in Jesus will not be saved???? -I dont believe there is a verse but please... do tell me if you find one :P
Replace Jesus's name with all the things you can describe Him as; Love, mercy, kindness etc... Then you can have (in my case) a different perspective when reading verses like John 14:6 and John 3:36. At the moment i reckon believing in love, truth, life, goodness, kindness, mercy, humility, etc.(and living wholeheartedly for these things) is believing and living in Jesus. 1 John 4:16 Seems to say this imo. Please post back with what youthink
Provocation as a teaching tool often makes reading into assumptions very easy to do. It also helps sell books and grab attention. :) Hopefully, in doing so, it will help us all to think deeper and act on the important matters of faith (without necessarily having to agree on everything).
"This is why 'lots of people want nothing to do with the Christian faith" is all I have to say to these ignorant comments. In order to be selfless, one must first understand the self and why to release it and give it all to God. It's funny how the people who walk towards God with fear and trembling are the ones never concerned about heresy and hypocristy. It's simply them and God. I hope most of you grasp this.
Interesting that you claim we should 'give it all to God', but then call people ignorant for STANDING UP FOR THE WORD OF GOD. Also, if you've read your Bible, you'd find that Jesus and Paul et al seemed to VERY concerned about heresy and hypocrisy - should we not be also? Are you suggesting Jesus and Paul never walked towards God with fear and trembling? (that's what you said)
@andypro7777 There are not only historical problems with what you said (that is to say, understanding that the Bible is actually a fairly new thing compared to the thousands of years of Judaism and the places on earth who had no Bible, and the billions of people who have never heard of a Bible), but there's a plethora of other crap you're muddling in here. Jesus and Paul never argued for the Word as we perceive it to be - they argued to have faith, and for people to look inwardly - above all.
Wow, that's just a bunch of made up gibberish. Not surprising you're a fan of Bell, who lives there himself.
"they argued to have faith, and for people to look inwardly"
Uh, that's not the Bible, that's the Disney channel. The Bible puts absolutely NO FAITH in the 'feelings' and 'inward glances' of man - teaching that the human heart is deceitful and wicked.
BTW, read the early church fathers, they understood the BIble. Much, much, MUCH better than Rob Bell.
@andypro7777 Well that had nothing to do with what I stated and neither did I ever make that claim. You're telling me that God commands us to give our entire heart, mind, body, etc. to God and that has nothing to do with the deepest introspection of the human heart? What I'm advocating IS the early church fathers - it is a direct usage of introspection...what the hell? Really, prove me how it's not about the individual and God. Prove me how you give your self to humanity and NOT God.
Once again, unintelligible gibberish. I'm not sure if there's a point, or a question, etc.
The basic premise is that true Christianity IS NOT about me being introspective and finding my 'inner voice' so that I can decide how I feel about something.
Rather, biblical Christianity is NOT trusting in our own heart or our own understanding, but trusting in that which God tells us to be true, in His Word.
"Trust in THE LORD with all your heart, and LEAN NOT on your OWN understanding"
Rob Bell might seem like a cool guy, and seem to really care about people, and seem to have all kinds of answers that for centuries people never came up with, etc, since he's so much more in tune with God than any who came before him...But, the things he teaches are in direct opposition to what the Word of God teachers.
So, I don't decide if I personally like him as a teacher or not, I KNOW he's a false teacher because the Bible tells me he is.
@andypro7777 You don't address points. You just close your ears and scream over whoever is talking. You failed to debunk the basis of my premise, and in the end you've failed to actually...well...defend your point...nice way to convince someone... <_<"
@andypro7777 It's only unintelligble because you shut your mind off. You're not understanding that to trust in the Lord - to give everything you have to the Lord, is the biggest leap of self you can ever make. You fail to realize that God is asking you to go beyond yourself and lean onto Him - and it requires every bit of your mind, body, and soul to believe in Him...
I'm saying exactly what you're saying, only how it occurs...using the teachings of Christ...*sigh* fundamentalists...*sigh*
No, honestly it's unintelligible not because I shut my mind off, but rather because you are not very good at making these 'points' that you claim I'm not addressing.
For example, you first 'point' was that:
Those who really seek God with fear and trembling aren't concerned with heresy and hypocrisy.
I countered that Jesus and Paul were VERY concerned with heresy and hypocrisy, thus your point is invalid.
@andypro7777 And I told you that their concern was of faith and salvation first and foremost. Do show me where Paul was actually worried about heresy above personal salvation. Explain to me where in John 3:16-17, etc. does Jesus speak about heretics.
Where is this heresy you find so crucial to your faith written in the core of what the faith is about. Show me. Your calls of heresy are not defenses, but closed-minded garbage.
Now, the way this relates to Rob Bell and his type of teaching is that people elevate their 'feelings' over the truth of God's Word.
You personally don't 'feel' that someone who's concerned about heretics can be close to God. And thus you make the statement that you made.
My point is that if you're not concerned about heretics and hypocrisy, then you've just decided to get rid of some parts of the Bible that don't line up with your 'feelings'.
And don't try the trick of trying to intimate that because someone is concerned about false teaching then that means that they aren't concerned about salvation. As a matter of fact, Paul was VERY concerned about false teachers BECAUSE of the danger they pose to one's salvation:
"I know that when I leave savage wolves will come among you, not sparing the flock"
Paul's concern was for the salvation of his people, that's why he was worried about heresy.
I did also forget I'm also arguing on terms that I shouldn't be. For one, heresy is something Jesus and Paul never mentioned. I will state this clearly, as its popularity came later on in the Orthodox Church and never touched Paul and Jesus. So no, heresy is not there, and its terminology is not used in any parallel manner for as to what you were doing.
Secondly, the claims of hypocrisy is also NOT parallel for as to what you are doing, for several key reasons:
"heresy is something Jesus and Paul never mentioned".
WRONG. The words of Jesus and Paul in scripture are replete with warnings about false teaching. If you do not know that, then you do not know your Bible.
Heresy is a departure from the orthodox Christian faith, the faith that was 'once for all delivered to the saints".
Rob Bell teaches things contrary to that, hence he is a heretic, or if you'd prefer, a false teacher - Warned about AGAIN and AGAIN by Jesus and Paul.
@andypro7777 First reason is that you gave no clear example of how Rob Bell IS a hypocrite in the proper use of the term. Once heresy is out the window, you have to prove that Rob Bell is actually a hypocrite. Did you do this? Well now, I doubt it, as the criteria in Matthew and Romans of what hypocrisy entails is actually nothing Rob Bell falls in line with. Heresy is always the proper word, right?
Second reason is Jesus was concerned with ridding powers and principalities, as it Paul says.
@andypro7777 His hypocrisy was dedicated to the Pharisees, who are very specific. He was not out to catch every last breath of every individual, else he would not mention forgiveness, but replace it with words calling out hypocrisy. I do believe the most coincident Biblical passages for Jesus' calls on hypocrisy, were the Pharisees, who WERE hypocritical...but Jesus' concern was not hypocrisy in general. Where does it say this, and where is it JUST hypocrisy and not pointed at someone specific?
@andypro7777 I am not concerned with hypocrisy - why? I am concerned with my relationship with God. You should be, too, and not attempting to call out an innocent man who you are not allowed to judge or in a position to talk about. Rob Bell, in fact, does not fall in line with the legalistic and political apocalyptic doctrines of the Pharisees. In fact, it lines up with faith...and yet I do not even like Rob Bell much, but rather I do like that he wants to bring theology back to its roots.
@andypro7777 I'm not saying he's innocent or guilty. I kept my personal statements away from him except for one message, where I told you I like the fact that he's using hermeneutics the ancient Jews and Christians used to use. Further, you say "Bible 1, You 0", then cite to somebody else a bunch of verses to connotate verses pertaining to judgement.
Yet none of them connotate to spread the word of your prejudice like you do here. None of them dictate to tell others. They say to avoid them...
You've given your OPINION of what you think the Bible says. I have responded that it isn't true. Now, you're claiming because the THREE verses I used don't explicitly say to to anything but 'avoid', that that must be the extent of the Bible's teaching on the subject. It isn't.
I don't have the time to give you a full Bible teaching on this subject, and you've shown it'd be hard to....
And now, it appears that you are making the case that because I didn't cite every Bible verse on the subject in these 500 characters, that those verses and teachings don't exist.
I'm sorry, YOU are responsible for what the Bible teaches. You've already proven to be mostly unteachable, so I'm not even sure the Bible could change you mind.
And that's the danger of false teachers like Bell. Once they start following him, the Bible doesn't matter anymore, it's just "lolwut"
@andypro7777 If you say so, but by trying to get to the core of his teachings you're still judging him by his appearance and nothing of his personal faith. The Bible says to expose...where? I tore down the other 4 verses you said as you misinterpreted them majorly and didn't address it. Keep up with the ad hominem, I'm still asking for verses.
1. If you had read (you didn't), those verses were not in response to you. They were in response to another poster, who like you, gives their own worldly opinions of what they THINK the Bible says.
HE tried to say that Jesus most strongly condemned those who judge, and I was using those verses to show that in fact Jesus COMMANDS us to judge righteously.
So, how did I misinterpret them? Please be specific.
@andypro7777 I explained each verse. Please go read them. I was a bit disappointed that those verses you gave to him - which are clearly things pertaining to your dissent with my view - were given to him and not directed to me. Oh well. Secondly, my point is that all those verses are pertaining to YOU as an individual, and not US as a collective. If it's so clear, give me an example. It's not hard. Why not be prepared for scrutiny if you give it? ...are you afraid of being wrong or something?...
@andypro7777 If I am wrong, I can accept it. All truth is God's truth. For you, though, you seem to have some type of ugly, disgusting pretension that whatever YOU say and interpret of a verse, it's of a factual nature the definitive interpretation....even if it goes against history of the religion...so I'm VERY skeptical of your statements.
I'm still waiting for verses, though, else I'll just leave you to rot in your own pool of prejudice.
@andypro7777 It's funny how Rob Bell doesn't meet any critieria of heresy, even if he was a universalist. Guess you don't know who Origen was. Further, I pointed out that none of your verses that you gave implicated a collective direct object. All verses were personal, with no connotation to the whole of Christianity. Go grab a Greek lexicon, translate, and see if everything is, indeed, directed to the whole of the Christian community. That's all.
@andypro7777 It's funny how Rob Bell doesn't meet any critieria of heresy, even if he was a universalist. Guess you don't know who Origen was. Further, I pointed out that none of your verses that you gave implicated a collective direct object. All verses were personal, with no connotation to the whole of Christianity. Go grab a Greek lexicon, translate, and see if everything is, indeed, directed to the whole of the Christian community. That's all.
So, if I'm hearing you correctly, you're saying that none of those verses were intended for Christianity in general, but rather they only applied to those who were actually there physically at the time? Is that REALLY what you're saying? Jesus' sermon on the mount was only intended as teaching for those who were there?, and NOT for all of Christianity that followed?
And Paul's letter to Romans was ONLY for them, and not for us?
So THIS is how far you have to go to deny the clear teaching of the Bible, eh? If you DON'T LIKE what it teaches, you just assume that it doesn't apply to you. Please explain to me which of those things that Jesus said do not 'imply a collective direct object' and are only 'personal, with no connotation to the whole of Christianity'
Go ahead, explain your reasoning.
But, if that's your criteria, WRONG as it as, then you can get what you want...
If you think that, then you get to believe exactly as YOU'D like to believe, and anything that the Bible teaches that you don't like, you just throw away and say it wasn't intended for you.
Well, you win, I can't defeat that logic. If that is you biblical hermeneutic, then no one will be able to teach you anything. You will never be able to learn from the Word, since you can throw out the bits that you don't like.
Truly you are one of Rob Bell's greatest disciples.
I like what you wrote in the description of this piece. Someone who got upset about "unsaved" people getting to Heaven would be very much like the older brother in the parable of the Prodigal Son. "Wait-- I followed You all my life, now THEY get the party?"
I hope that on that day I would be like "YES!!! You mean that in the end my Atheist DAD chose to come here, too? YES!!!!!! This is AWESOME!!! Now the party can begin!"
frithar 2 months ago
@frithar I think that the Great Feast of Heaven takes place when the last one comes in. WHo can hold out eternally against such a Love? In the end-- it may take a while-- but Love Wins!
frithar 2 months ago
Wake up! This holy God who can't stand sin, came down to the world, clothed in flesh and lived amongst us. The confusion lies in the fact of the mis-teaching of a lot of the christian story, not with Rob Bell!
TheGeoffh 5 months ago 2
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Given time more people will discover that many of our medieval interpretations didn't reflect what the original biblical text meant. Rob just found that earlier and remains courageous. And not alone.
agente180 5 months ago
befor you make comments please read the book and take away what Rob Bell has to say. He is asking questions that everyone thinks but is afraid to ask
mavslegacy 6 months ago
SO TERRIBLY SAD TO TELL:
ROB BELL, IS THE PIPERS PIPER
ON HIS HIGHWAY TO HELL!
trau1gott 7 months ago
@trau1gott The way your comment was set up, I found myself checking syllables in case it was a Haiku.
frithar 2 months ago
Matthew 7:14, John 14:6, Matthew 13:49
kanwiens92 7 months ago
Good grief! God doesn't send anyone to hell! It's call free will! It's in Genesis.... first book of the Bible! A good place to start reading. If you want answers about God, look to the book he wrote himself.
kanwiens92 7 months ago
great book.
marksawatzky96 8 months ago 2
I have recalled many past lives and "lives between lives." When I crossed over there was NO GOD throwing anyone into a fire pit. Jesus wasn't there to greet me, none of my sins had been forgiven. Heaven is huge. The 1st level is 10,000 times bigger than this universe. There are gazillions of SOULS from billions of galaxies coming and going, birth and death. This world is a school for us to learn and grow in. Constantine invented Hell and Salvation..both are myths, and are tests for SOUL.
moranplano 8 months ago
"The Bible says you MUST accept Jesus to get into heaven." Even those who are familiar with the Bible may have wonderful reasons for turning to a different faith, or no faith at all. Some people can't believe in the unprovable. Their minds just don't work any other way. Does this mean they deserve eternal torment? Absolutely not, and any other view is sadistic and cruel. A selfless God would care more about how we treat His creations than how we treat Him. Bad ACTIONS should be punished.
DontKicktheBritV2 9 months ago
telling it how it is from the heart. dispite what peoples brokenness will say about him. Thats why I like what he says. He challenges us all on the reality of the way we as humans have represented God in this world.
natzz6 9 months ago
That's it I am writing a book, and calling it, "justice wins". :)
Shoots1978 9 months ago
BTW - YES I did thoroughly read the book and I reserved comment until I did. I hope others do the same.
mrnateman56 9 months ago
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Rob is a Rock Star pastor. And, he has some compelling thoughts. The problem is he sets up caricature after caricature and uses proof-texts to overcome the issues his psyche cannot deal with. Rob has some good stuff in Love Wins. However, he's done a disservice to the Historical Biblical Christian faith in his book. His belief system is not truly historical Christianity - it's more Moralistic-Therapeutic-Deism. If you're good, and you've been wounded God's love with overcome. Ya, but
mrnateman56 9 months ago
Rob is a Rock Star pastor. And, he has some compelling thoughts. The problem is he sets up caricature after caricature and uses proof-texting to overcome the issues his psyche cannot deal with. Rob has some good stuff in Love Wins. However, he's done a disservice to the Historical Biblical Christian faith in his book. His belief system is not truly historical Christianity - it's more Moralistic-Therapeutic-Deism. If you're good, and you've been wounded God's love with overcome. Ya, but
mrnateman56 9 months ago
Another thought....I'll let God figure out where Ghandi belongs but history does teach us that he openly rejected Christianity. If Christianity is the door the Christ of God showed us then what is God to do with Ghandi if he willfully slammed the only open door God gave??? That doesn't mean he wasn't a good guy or did good deads but can being a good guy doing good deades save him. Isn't that what Cain thought, " I know what your holiness requires God but none the less here is MY offering..."
FLINTER1740 9 months ago
And what are you going to do with the subject of the fall and sin??? What are going to do with the words of Jesus "You MUST be born again". If I have to listen to the words of Rob Bell a new age heretic or Jesus - I think I'll go with Jesus. If we are all saved then shut up an go away Rob - I don't need you.
FLINTER1740 9 months ago
WOW, I wonder why a minister who says he is a "Christian" minister is so offended at the Bible, because that is exactly the driving force behind his new age teaching - and that is all it is. I am a devout Christian who was rescued from the New Age. I don't mean the coffee shop kind - I mean the kind where I met my spirit guides and they were suposed to lead me into truth. Then I met the Truth and his name is Jesus. Take God at His Word and let Him figure it all out and quit truing to be God.
FLINTER1740 9 months ago
Reality set aside, I think it's unlike God to send 2/3 of the world to hell because they were not predisposed to believe a set of ideas. This is brings up a lot of good questions that need to be addressed. How can such a good man like Gahndi be sent to hell because he was born in India were christianity didn't exist?
LIGHTRONIX 9 months ago 6
@LIGHTRONIX For Ghandi that wasn't the case, he was familiar with Jesus and christianity. Google Ghandi and Jesus. I know and believe that there will be many in heaven, many.
RobyPreachTimothy 9 months ago
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RobyPreachTimothy 9 months ago
@LIGHTRONIX please just youtube search erasing hell by francis chan.
TheMovieBuff91 6 months ago
@TheMovieBuff91 I'm well aware of that book. And it's not actually written by Francis, just as love wins probably wasn't written entirely by bell (idk on that one though)
LIGHTRONIX 6 months ago
Paul said in Romans 9:2 I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers.
Instead of challenging the idea Christ himself established, accept it and let it be something that help drive you to prayer and preaching the real Good News, Christ died for our sins (which is why we deserve judgment). Read 1 Cor 15:1-9
RobyPreachTimothy 10 months ago
Revelation 21:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
I don't think any believer in Christ with Christ's heart likes the idea of hell, but it's real and it's just, and that's why we should be preaching the gospel and praying for people...
RobyPreachTimothy 10 months ago
About time I read something 100% true. There is hell and if you don't do what is expected of you, God is not throwing you in the lake of fire, your throwing yourself in it. God bless you all. :)
TOWTHIG 10 months ago
So often, people comment on books they've never even read.
How many of those making comments hear have READ the book?
I have a copy ordered and will read it as soon as it arrives.
Then I will be able to comment intelligently.
Yes, like most people here, I have my personal biases and expectations,
and from what I have heard, Rob's book says what I have believed for many years
(I'm 65, and was a pastor for 33 years).
But I'll suspend comment on the book until I have actually READ it!
homesong46 10 months ago
ugh...this makes me sad. God is a holy God & can't tolerate sin. Jesus rescues you from the power of sin! This is so insulting to the grace of God to say that Jesus is rescuing us from a God who would send people to Hell. This is so sad. :( This is how people get confused. The devil's using this to confuse people. Omgoodness..I used to like Rob Bell :(
carefulapathy18 10 months ago 4
@carefulapathy18 amen to that!!!!!
guitarstud10 10 months ago
" God is not the Author of Confusion." satan is sure winning lots of people with all his lies. There is hell. Ask for forgiveness, repent and don't do it again. If you repent, it comes from your heart not your mouth. It's a battle of the mind. Any bad thought, rebuke it, renew your thoughts and keep the tablets of the word of God in your heart. It's spiritual warfare. The Holy Spirit will guide you. Jesus will protect you and God will love it. :)
TOWTHIG 10 months ago
@carefulapathy18 Yo seem to be confused. God obviously made hell so he could enjoy watching most people burn in a big grotesque barbecue. Why else would he create the system to be like that? Its HIS system, he can create it however he wants... so he puts a torturer chamber in there? lol
FrozenPetrolPie 8 months ago
Wait a minute!
Didn't I just quote Scripture?
Well, I'm glad somebody finally responded...
ontarioboy101 10 months ago
It says the way to heaven is narrow. If we confess Christ as our Lord and Savior, we go to heaven. God is also a just God. Best to stick to the Bible, not Rob Bell. Best not to get caught up in who's going and who's not - God knows the heart.
DCussen 10 months ago
"I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall return, that unto Me, EVERY KNEE shall bow, EVERY tongue shall swear, surely shall say, 'In the Lord have I righteousness and strength." Isaiah 45: 23, 24
"We trust in the Living God, Who is the Saviour of ALL men, especially (not exclusively) those who believe." 1 Timothy 4:10
"Fear not, I have the keys of Hell and death." Revelations 1: 17,18
Jesus is telling us not to be afraid!
Gotta go, talk later...
ontarioboy101 11 months ago 2
"His anger is but for a moment..." Psalms 30:5
"He will not keep His anger forever." Psalms 103:8, 9
"I will not be angry forever." Jeremiah 3:12. As far as our sins go, how can you pay for your sins if Christ already paid for them?
"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for our sins only, but the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2
We, of course still need to repent, which will happen to everyone, eventually...
ontarioboy101 11 months ago
@ontarioboy101 Nice quotes--thanks!! :D Meet you There! :D
frithar 2 months ago
@bbmmjjrr You say you believe the Bible is accurate. Would you even beliveve half the scriptures I quote to you? About the doctrine of endless hell...
God HIMSELF says He doesn't do this...
"I will not contend forever, neither will I always be wroth; for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made." Isaiah 57:16
"The Lord will NOT cast off forever, but though He causes grief will have compassion according to the multitude of His mercies. " Lamentations 3:31-33
ontarioboy101 11 months ago 2
“It is wholly inconceivable that [God should fail]. God has, in the face of angels and of men, before the universe and its gaze of wonder, entered Himself into the arena, become Himself a combatant, has wrestled with the foe, and has been defeated. I can bring myself to imagine those, who reject the Deity of Christ, as believing in His defeat; but it is passing strange that those who believe Him to be ‘very God Almighty,’ are loudest in asserting His failure [to save the world].”—Thomas Allin
redrassleberry1 11 months ago
It is true Jesus was the Christ. But Jesus who was God in the flesh was beaten for our healing and hung on a cross for our sins. All Christians have the Christ. But we are not all the Saviour of the world.
leonmaiolo 11 months ago
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Hell is the grave. Man is not an immortal being. Check out my article at Facebook, search Bible Insights. The name of the article is God and Eternal Punishment. I use dozens of Bible scriptures to support this.
leonmaiolo 11 months ago
@leonmaiolo I have come to realize that, in my understanding, the Christ spirit was doing the talking here. Not Jesus the man. Jesus was our Elder Brother, our Wayshower. He was also the Master who embodied the Christ Consciousness in a unique way. So it is true. Christ is the way, the truth and the life and no one comes to God except through the Christ. However, I personally believe, that the reference here is to the Universal Christ and not Jesus the man.
aguatriste 11 months ago
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Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Jesus is the only way to eternal life. Hell is the grave. Man is not an immortal being. Check out my article on facebook where I explain this with dozens of Bible versus. Facebook search Bible Insights and God and Eternal Punishment
leonmaiolo 11 months ago
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Jesus is the only way to eternal life. Hell is the grave. Man is not an immortal being. Check out my article on facebook where I explain this with dozens of Bible versus. Facebook search Bible Insights and God and Eternal Punishment
leonmaiolo 11 months ago
My little brother, who is a Christian, thinks it's absurd for anyone to claim anything about what happens after a person dies, because all of us are still alive.
MissJemimaPuddleduck 11 months ago
i think the likes and dislikes sum this up, we are divvied in our opinions. As Christians lets not judge Rob Bell, and say he is wrong or right, but lets welcome the discussion. Lets separate God from Religion, lets spread the good news, but not by putting our beliefs on the line. Let this start conversation that will find more answers and a stronger faith for all involved. Lets not forget that we are all followers of Christ.
Rossigakaexcalibur 11 months ago
There is another Christian perspective! Since the early church fathers, the Orthodox Church has taught that heaven and hell are the same "place," both are in God's bosom. Some feel God's presence as paradise bc they have allowed Jesus to transform their hearts. Others feel God's presence as eternal torment bc their hearts are full of sin and can't bear the love of God. But both are in God's loving arms.
KEL1528 11 months ago
Bbmmijrr, I used to believe as you do. I’m now convinced that (a) limiting "all creatures" to believers is arbitrary and unwarranted and (b) the Lake of Fire is a temporary (Matt. 5:26, Luke 12:47-48, I Cor. 3:15) place of punishment & purification, and that, in the end, our Lord will not fail to accomplish what He came to earth to do, namely, to “save that which was lost.” Please check out the FAQ section of the Hope Beyond Hell site and/or google “Bell’s Hells Seven Myths”
redrassleberry1 11 months ago
@redrassleberry1 Thanks. The Robin Parry article was really enlightening.
MissJemimaPuddleduck 11 months ago
very sad that he is leading so many people astray from the truth. the truth being that only people who believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior go to heaven, and everyone else goes to hell forever. sorry, but its the truth. Rob Bell is just giving people an excuse to live how they want to live which is in sin and still be saved because, well according to him, "Love Wins." why would Jesus humble himself and come to earth as a lowly human if everyone was saved... .just think about this.
bbmmjjrr 11 months ago
@bbmmjjrr According to you and your interpretation - come on!
ssfandad 11 months ago
@bbmmjjrr You could also ask why God would become a human, and experience every sinful thing any human being ever did to another, if not to forgive all of us.
MissJemimaPuddleduck 11 months ago
@bbmmjjrr Sorry!? Have you even thought about what you're saying?
Imagine you are dead. You are in this palace with every luxury you could desire. Now this angel comes up to you and informs you that your three closest friends are in hell, and you will never see them again. He tells you that there is nothing you can do about it, and that you're stuck in heaven forever, with this knowledge.
Whenever I get thinking of the sort of afterlife you describe, heaven always turns into hell.
MissJemimaPuddleduck 11 months ago
@MissJemimaPuddleduck of course I thought about it I thought about it my whole life I have considered the possiblilty of losing my friends which is why I constantly talk to them about God and Jesus. but also, I know that our God is a just God who will throw you into hell if you do not believe Jesus Christ as you Lord and Savior The reason why you go to hell is because of your own sin For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord Rom6:23
bbmmjjrr 11 months ago
@bbmmjjrr And yet you still believe in a God who's justice looks like your friends being tortured forever? I would be terrified of him. And I would probably hate him. Besides, what does death even mean in that verse? And what does eternal life mean? Does eternal life mean heaven? I'm not sure it does.
MissJemimaPuddleduck 11 months ago
@MissJemimaPuddleduck of course I still believe. we are supposed to fear God, like a child fears his father when he is caught doing something bad. we fear not only because it is just but also becuase we know we deserve it. The bible even says to fear God, "Let all the earth fear the LORD; let all the people of the world revere him" Psalm33:8 and there are many verses also saying that it is the beginning of understanding (prov1:7, psalm111:10, psalm2:11, Ecclesiastes12:13, and many more)
bbmmjjrr 11 months ago
@bbmmjjrr Why do you believe? Why are you personally a Christian? It sounds excruciating. I don't know if I am a Christian. I think I'm probably having a spiritual crisis.
MissJemimaPuddleduck 11 months ago
@MissJemimaPuddleduck I have many reasons why I believe (way too many to display on a youtube comment) in a nutshell, first because it makes sense second there is evidence that the Bible is the most accurate ancient document in the world, third because there are other historical documents supporting the Bible fourth because I have seen the differences between Christianity and other religions, and the list goes on. I am sorry if you are having a crisis I hope God leads you in the right direction
bbmmjjrr 11 months ago
I think Mr. Bell is confused. Jesus does not rescue us from God, Jesus is God in the flesh. He rescues us from our sins. God so desperately wants to have a relationship with us, but our sins prevent that from happening. He cannot come near us when we are covered in sin. God is loving and merciful, he wants us to spend eternity in Heaven with him. However, not everyone accepts Jesus' sacrifice, thus they must suffer an eternity without God. It is not God's desire, but we bring it upon ourselves.
OctoberIncursion 11 months ago
This video raises many important questions, and some very stark issues about the current state of the Christian Church.
seanusmcprawnus 11 months ago
Has Rob Bell ever denied Jesus is the only way?
amossunghopark 11 months ago
You’re right, Jesus is the only way. Fortunately, all will eventually find this way:
John 12:32: When I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men to myself.
I Cor. 15:22: For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
Revelation 5:13: “Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: ‘To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!’"
tm755 11 months ago
@tm755 ya, some of these are out of context, they are talking about believers, and believers only! look at Revelation 14:11 (English Standard Version)
11And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."
or
Revelation 20:15: "and anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."
there are many others to.
bbmmjjrr 11 months ago
One day you will stand before God and answer to God for all the lives you have brought to deception. JESUS IS THE ONLY ANSWER
flattreellc 11 months ago
Jude verse 4 &10 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves.
flattreellc 11 months ago
Jude verse 4 &10 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves.
One day you will stand before God and answer to God for all the lives you have brought to deception. JESUS IS THE ONLY ANSWER
flattreellc 11 months ago
The Middle Ages saw many errors creep into the church including Mary worship, celibacy for priests, a Hell that never ends, access to God only through the church, and the sale of indulgences for the salvation of loved ones, to name a few. The 16th century reformers did a pretty good job of correcting most of these, but they missed one. Ergo, Love Wins, and scripturally sound books by solidly evangelical authors such as Gerry Beauchemin, Thomas Talbott, Gregory MacDonald, and others.
tm755 11 months ago
Before we prejudge Rob's view on hell, we need to wait until the book comes out. I feel that this is one way to publicize his new book "Love Wins" that is coming out on March 29th. He is a guru when it comes to catching people's attention through short films like his Nooma DVD series. Considering he is a Wheaton College student, I doubt he advocates the no hell theology. Just notice all he does is raising interesting questions!
amossunghopark 11 months ago
@amossunghopark That's all he does is question...just like the serpent..."did God really say?"
gtrjunky 11 months ago
@amossunghopark ....It's easy to ask questions! Providing answers is the harder thing to do. The Emerging Church movement is this serpent scenario, 'did God really say?'... and let the chips fall where they may, the ignorant to their own devices, and the unchurched/underchurched to flounder and be deceived.
melwbristow 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Before we prejudge Rob's view on hell, we need to wait until the book comes out. I feel that this is one way to publicize his new book "Love Wins" that is coming out on March 29th. He is a guru when it comes to catching people's attention through short films like his Nooma DVD series. Considering he is a Wheaton College student, I doubt he advocates the no hell theology.
amossunghopark 11 months ago
What really interested me was while doing a bible study with a group of 50-80 yr olds the reflections that they came to were the same as what rob is saying. Not one of those in the group would have heard of rob bell.
Kasbeefly 11 months ago
The frog is being boiled alive very slowly. I'm alluding to the illustration i've heard before where if you take a frog and throw it in a pot of hot water, it will hop out immediatelly. But if you put it in a pot of water at room temperature, and turn up the heat ever so slowly, it will just sit there and boil to death. This is exactly what is happening to the american christian community.
But but.... it FEELS SOOO GOOOD... I mean doesn't that sound so loving?
greendesert69 11 months ago
WELCOME TO THE GREAT AMERICAN EAR TICKLEFEST -
"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. " 2 Timothy 4:3,4
More proof that the Bible is true. Perfect fulfilment of prophecy.
greendesert69 11 months ago
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Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
The Gospel of Matthew, Chapter 7, Verses 13 and 14 (1611 Authorized Translation, or KJV)
TheWindowIsTranspare 11 months ago
Reality Check: Gandhi IS in hell.
Jesus has said: "I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the father except through me."
It is Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of God, THE Christ, who saves us from the just punishment for our sins. He takes it upon himself to save whom he pleases.
Gandhi did not believe this truth. Gandhi was not called by Christ to repentance. Thus, we may say with some Scriptural authority that Gandhi is not among those saved, and thus not in heaven.
TheWindowIsTranspare 11 months ago
@TheWindowIsTranspare :
1 John 4:16
"We know how much God loves us, and we have put our trust in his love. God is love, and all who live in love live in God, and God lives in them."
Replace Jesus's name with all the things you can describe Him as; Love, mercy, kindness etc... Then you can have a different perspective when reading verses like 2 John 1:9. Sometimes our picture of God is distorted.
Nastybutl3r 11 months ago
@Nastybutl3r
The question here is who is "us" in this verse. Is "us" mankind in general, or is it those whom he has redeemed? I agree that we can have a distorted view of God, but that is not the issue in this instance.
Ours is a God who "has mercy on whom he will have mercy." Not all will be saved, as the hearts of man are desperately wicked. Even our own righteousness is wickedness in His eyes.
God's Will is sovereign. No good works earn salvation. Those not in Christ are condemned already.
TheWindowIsTranspare 11 months ago
Rob, you are flat out wrong. God's Word doesn't teach this. You are being used by the devil to be a false teacher. The Bible warns us against you. Jesus died on the cross for sinners. To save us from sin, not God. He's saving us from hell. He also tells us that as Pastor's we will give an account of what we taught God's people. I wouldn't want to be in your shoes.
pjake2010 11 months ago
Jesus doesn't save us from God, he saves us from our own wicked hearts. It's sad to see someone so influential in Christianity to abandon the Bible, that is what really confusing non-believers. How are they expected to know the truth when they are being fed lies.
spocko024 11 months ago
Androskovich, I share your belief that God, who is love, must sometimes exercise tough love and punish sinners. But do you believe that a punishment of trillions of ages of torment in Hell , repeated over and over again forever, fits the crime of 80 years of sin?
tm755 11 months ago
Dear Rob,
I found a great book you might want to read. It's called the Bible.
Androskovich 11 months ago
God doesn't send people to hell because they don't believe in Jesus... He sends people to hell because he is just and there must be punishment for crime (in this case, the violation of His holy law, which amounts to what we call sin). Jesus saves us from hell because He paid the ransom for our crime. "the wages of sin is death". That's the fine we owe, and Jesus paid it. Jesus took our sentence so that we can go free and justified.
Androskovich 11 months ago
... oh man... lets shut down the judicial system, release the murderers, rapists, etc... turns out we need to consider our own humanity before sending a serial killer to prison... after all, we are'nt perfect either... To assume that God would not punish sin is to assume that God is indeed NOT good, but corrupt. God is just, and so he MUST punish lawlessness... a category into which we all fall... (See next comment)
Androskovich 11 months ago
@thomat65 how do you know that's the context? I admire with what confidence you speak, but I think that you limit God to a book full of ways, truths, and lives, but is not the Way, the Truth, or the Life. I wish you love in finding that He is already in you and that He is beyond your understanding of that book.
Scrimper79 11 months ago
Dear Rob Bell,
Several people have raised some serious concerns about whether you are on par with Scripture or not and the dangers thereof. I hope you address these things, especially since reputable sources like Kevin DeYoung do an excellent job with things like "thegospelcoalition org/blogs/kevindeyoung/files/2011/03/LoveWinsReview pdf", even if it is dense.
P.S. I hope this comment passes the spam test since it's not just a link to another resource but rather a call to address concerns.
thomat65 11 months ago
For those wishing to better understand Christian Universalism (not to be confused with all-roads-lead-to-God universalism or Unitarian Universalism), I recommend that you google "Gerry Beauchemin" , "biblicaluniversalist" and/or "tentmaker" .
Psalm 22:27, 65:2-3, 145:10a, Isaiah 45:22-23, 57:16, Lam. 3:22,31, Ezek. 16:53,55, John 12:32, Acts 3:21, Romans 5:18, 11:32,36a, I Cor. 15:22,28, Phil. 2:10-11, Col. 1:20, I John 4:14, Rev. 5:13, 15:4.
Some feel Bell believes in CU, others do not.
tm755 11 months ago
Love this! Love wins!
God is just and loving!
The qualities aren't contradictory to one another.
OT is about God's justice, NT is about God's love.
There would be no basis for God's love without God's justice. There would be no basis for God's justice without God's love!
My brothers and sisters, do not be driven by fear or condemnation any longer! We are the redeemed, righteousness of God!
2 Cor 5:21
Romans 8:1-2
hensonator 11 months ago
a facebook user just commented "The fact that a representative of Union Theological Seminary approves Bell's book is practically Satan's own seal of approval."
LightPursuit 11 months ago
Psalm 145:10a: All you have made will praise you, O Lord.
John 12:32: “When I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."
I Cor. 15:22: For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
Isa. 45:23: “By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear.”
Rom. 5:18, Rom. 11:32,36a, Is. 57:16, Ezek. 16:53,55, Lam 3:22,31, Rev. 15:4.
God bless all
tm755 11 months ago
publicity stunt much?
PiggyKlinsmen 11 months ago
bummer. it's just a commercial. ripped off again
rriverstone1 11 months ago
Okay, I feel this is a marketing ploy, while i do not know much about Rob Bell, I do know Marketing. He said everything he said in the way he said it to create emotions in every person who sees this. Whether they are curiosity, anger, or some kind of relief that these questions seem to have an answer, which of course are in his book. So whether you angry, confused, or relieved, you have to read his book to really understand or know what he is truly stating in this video.
acmcclelland243 11 months ago
@acmcclelland243
Also the person who posted this video is extremely off base. He obviously, like the rest of us, has yet to read the book. He is just guessing at what Rob Bell is saying. And if he is correct with his interpretation then I do not agree at all. Because God Loved the world so much that he gave us his son, wow, would you give your kid to a world of people to be killed? And without Hell there is no need for Jesus, which would totally destroy the whole point of Christianity
acmcclelland243 11 months ago
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j3nnnstar 11 months ago
When asked did Jesus not say that the greatest commandment is to love the Lord you're God and the second was to love your neighbor as yourself? He could have said whatever he wanted but chose simply to remind us to love. Are we also not to look out for the poor, hungry, and naked? Rather than point at the speck in our brothers eye should we not take the plank from our own? Shouldn't he who has no sin cast the first stone? Who are we to say there is only one way to heaven...
yourXsoXsXe 11 months ago
God is just and pure and holy. The fact that He offers a way of redemption is evidence of His good will, and it really is good news. But He is just, and, though some people don't get it, justice demands recompense for wrongdoing. God offers a way for that recompense to come in the form of a man on a cross to those who believe in Him, but to those who would thumb their noses at a pattern that loving God laid out for redemption, justice is a dish served cold.
glockmodel23 11 months ago
This guy is a wolf in sheep's clothing. He ask how we get to be one of the few - the answer and the only answer if Jesus Christ - period!
kidsareablessing 11 months ago
@kidsareablessing
What you say is true,
Thought i'd show u a verse which made me think of it in a different way
1 John 4:16
"We know how much God loves us, and we have put our trust in his love. God is love, and all who live in love live in God, and God lives in them."
Replace Jesus's name with all the things you can describe Him as; Love, mercy, kindness etc... Then you can have a different perspective when reading verses like 2 John 1:9. Sometimes our picture of God/Jesus is distorted.
Nastybutl3r 11 months ago
God still loves us even as sinners and even when we are oppositional to Him. God is the very definition of love. I will read this book because I need to know what he is saying for sure before I start going on a rant over whether or not its biblically correct. By what he has said here it seems to be a book about reaching out to those that are against Christianity because of what they have been led to believe its about by hateful people, or by what their sinning selves have falsely argued.
ThePurpleprincess24 11 months ago
If what Rob Bell proclaims in this video is true, then there is no reason to follow the righteous law of God. Might as well engage in all the carnality which the world can afford you if we all end up at the same place. But are you willing to take that risk?
AaronTheContrarian 11 months ago
@AaronTheContrarian So what exactly do you claim he is proclaiming? That we don't know the content of people's hearts? That an emphasis on the wrath of God rather than His Grace and the redeeming sacrifice of Christ might make church a scary and judgmental place. That much of the commonly held views on heaven and hell come from pagan and folklore images rather than Scripture? Who knows since the book hasn't come out yet. People thought Jesus, Paul, Luther, Calvin, Wesley, were heretics too
danielelwinm1954 11 months ago
@danielelwinm1954 Jesus, Paul, Luther and Calvin were never called heretics because they contradicted Scripture... like Rob Bell is doing. And if you disagree, please show me where you have seen such things.
918boiz 11 months ago
I find it slightly disturbing to find a group of supposed Christians acting like a bunch of "second handers" out of THE FOUNTAINHEAD or an Allen Drury book. Advertising videos are supposed to provocative to drum up interest. Reminds me of the brouhaha over the LAST TEMPTATION OF CHRIST or THE DA VINCI CODE people going on and on about how evil and ungodly something is because someone else said, "its evil" This is like deciding not to buy a car based solely upon the color of the brake pedal.
danielelwinm1954 11 months ago
@danielelwinm1954
I don't know why you would find it disturbing that a bunch of 'supposed' Christians are doing EXACTLY what they are commanded to do by God.
Also, in this case, people are 'going on and on' about how evil and ungodly this is NOT because someone else said 'it's evil'; but rather because JESUS CHRIST says it's evil.
Seems as if you're advocating that we buy every car that comes along without even bothering to check it out to find out if it's safe.
andypro7777 11 months ago
@andypro7777 What I am advocating is precisely what you say I'm not. If I am going to buy a car I check it out completely before buying it. If I formulate an opinion I base it upon facts, not on frenzied Tweets or You Tube posts. Having read Rob Bell's books, visited his church, and view his videos I find some of these post about as informed as describing a dog based upon one of its teeth. As an ordained pastor and a student of the Bible I find that Jesus condemned nothing so much as judges.
danielelwinm1954 11 months ago
@danielelwinm1954
Well, if you've read all of Bell's books, visited his church, etc, and you can't tell that he's not teaching the true, bibllical Christian faith, then you need to study your Bible more.
And it's also not surprising that you'd say that "Jesus condemned nothing so much as judges" Of course that doesn't hold up to scriptual evaluation at all. Yes, Jesus condemned UNRIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT, but it certainly wasn't the the thing he condemned most.
That's just your (wrong) opinion....
andypro7777 11 months ago
@danielelwinm1954
But, let's see what the Bible says:
"Judge not according to the appearance, but judge with righteous judgment"
"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits, whether they be of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world"
"Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them"
I could go on, but it's clear that we ARE expected to judge someone's teaching.
Sorry.
andypro7777 11 months ago 5
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"Aren't you all glad that God has sent Rob Bell to correct the teachings of Jesus about Heaven and Hell?"
-Essentially, that is what most of you are saying. Read your own Bible, and rely on it! Gods word will always trump anyones prideful intellect.
918boiz 11 months ago
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"Aren't you all glad that God has sent Rob Bell to correct the teachings of Jesus about Heaven and Hell?"
-Essentially, that is what most of you are saying. Read your own Bible, and rely on it! Gods word will always trump anyones prideful intellect.
918boiz 11 months ago
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918boiz 11 months ago
Can ANYONE tell me where in the Bible it says that those who dont believe in Jesus will not be saved???? -I dont believe there is a verse but please... do tell me if you find one :P
Nastybutl3r 11 months ago
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@Nastybutl3r Sure man.
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him" - John 3:36
"Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me" -John 14:6
;P
918boiz 11 months ago
@Nastybutl3r Sure man.
"Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me" -John 14:6
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." -John 3:36
;P
918boiz 11 months ago
@918boiz
Thanks for the verses they were very helpful
Replace Jesus's name with all the things you can describe Him as; Love, mercy, kindness etc... Then you can have (in my case) a different perspective when reading verses like John 14:6 and John 3:36. At the moment i reckon believing in love, truth, life, goodness, kindness, mercy, humility, etc.(and living wholeheartedly for these things) is believing and living in Jesus. 1 John 4:16 Seems to say this imo. Please post back with what youthink
Nastybutl3r 11 months ago
definitely effective video. I'm buying this book when it comes out!
katherineanne88 11 months ago
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God is 100% love and 100% judgement - one attribute does not negate the other. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
richardfila1 11 months ago
Provocation as a teaching tool often makes reading into assumptions very easy to do. It also helps sell books and grab attention. :) Hopefully, in doing so, it will help us all to think deeper and act on the important matters of faith (without necessarily having to agree on everything).
Rangerdavie 11 months ago 2
Have you read the book? Or are you basing this comment on the trailer alone?
jimmycramp 11 months ago 2
"This is why 'lots of people want nothing to do with the Christian faith" is all I have to say to these ignorant comments. In order to be selfless, one must first understand the self and why to release it and give it all to God. It's funny how the people who walk towards God with fear and trembling are the ones never concerned about heresy and hypocristy. It's simply them and God. I hope most of you grasp this.
Audiofalcon7 11 months ago
@Audiofalcon7
Interesting that you claim we should 'give it all to God', but then call people ignorant for STANDING UP FOR THE WORD OF GOD. Also, if you've read your Bible, you'd find that Jesus and Paul et al seemed to VERY concerned about heresy and hypocrisy - should we not be also? Are you suggesting Jesus and Paul never walked towards God with fear and trembling? (that's what you said)
You can't claim to love God and hate his Word.
I hope you can grasp this.
andypro7777 11 months ago
@andypro7777 There are not only historical problems with what you said (that is to say, understanding that the Bible is actually a fairly new thing compared to the thousands of years of Judaism and the places on earth who had no Bible, and the billions of people who have never heard of a Bible), but there's a plethora of other crap you're muddling in here. Jesus and Paul never argued for the Word as we perceive it to be - they argued to have faith, and for people to look inwardly - above all.
Audiofalcon7 11 months ago
@Audiofalcon7
Wow, that's just a bunch of made up gibberish. Not surprising you're a fan of Bell, who lives there himself.
"they argued to have faith, and for people to look inwardly"
Uh, that's not the Bible, that's the Disney channel. The Bible puts absolutely NO FAITH in the 'feelings' and 'inward glances' of man - teaching that the human heart is deceitful and wicked.
BTW, read the early church fathers, they understood the BIble. Much, much, MUCH better than Rob Bell.
andypro7777 11 months ago
@Audiofalcon7
The entire history of the church is littered with people who spout the same exact error:
"For years no one has ever got Christianity right, but now WE have finally figured it all out"
Catholics, Muslims, JWs, Mormans, Charimatics, etc etc have all come along to 'improve' on our centuries long failing to understand the Bible.
And yet true Christians STILL believe the same things taught by Jesus and Paul.
Rob Bell is just one more arrogant 'I finally have the answers' heretic.
andypro7777 11 months ago
@andypro7777 Well that had nothing to do with what I stated and neither did I ever make that claim. You're telling me that God commands us to give our entire heart, mind, body, etc. to God and that has nothing to do with the deepest introspection of the human heart? What I'm advocating IS the early church fathers - it is a direct usage of introspection...what the hell? Really, prove me how it's not about the individual and God. Prove me how you give your self to humanity and NOT God.
Audiofalcon7 11 months ago
@Audiofalcon7
Once again, unintelligible gibberish. I'm not sure if there's a point, or a question, etc.
The basic premise is that true Christianity IS NOT about me being introspective and finding my 'inner voice' so that I can decide how I feel about something.
Rather, biblical Christianity is NOT trusting in our own heart or our own understanding, but trusting in that which God tells us to be true, in His Word.
"Trust in THE LORD with all your heart, and LEAN NOT on your OWN understanding"
andypro7777 11 months ago
How this plays out is what we see here.
Rob Bell might seem like a cool guy, and seem to really care about people, and seem to have all kinds of answers that for centuries people never came up with, etc, since he's so much more in tune with God than any who came before him...But, the things he teaches are in direct opposition to what the Word of God teachers.
So, I don't decide if I personally like him as a teacher or not, I KNOW he's a false teacher because the Bible tells me he is.
andypro7777 11 months ago
@andypro7777 You don't address points. You just close your ears and scream over whoever is talking. You failed to debunk the basis of my premise, and in the end you've failed to actually...well...defend your point...nice way to convince someone... <_<"
Audiofalcon7 11 months ago
@andypro7777 It's only unintelligble because you shut your mind off. You're not understanding that to trust in the Lord - to give everything you have to the Lord, is the biggest leap of self you can ever make. You fail to realize that God is asking you to go beyond yourself and lean onto Him - and it requires every bit of your mind, body, and soul to believe in Him...
I'm saying exactly what you're saying, only how it occurs...using the teachings of Christ...*sigh* fundamentalists...*sigh*
Audiofalcon7 11 months ago
@Audiofalcon7
No, honestly it's unintelligible not because I shut my mind off, but rather because you are not very good at making these 'points' that you claim I'm not addressing.
For example, you first 'point' was that:
Those who really seek God with fear and trembling aren't concerned with heresy and hypocrisy.
I countered that Jesus and Paul were VERY concerned with heresy and hypocrisy, thus your point is invalid.
You never responded to that.
Nice way to convince someone.
andypro7777 11 months ago
@andypro7777 And I told you that their concern was of faith and salvation first and foremost. Do show me where Paul was actually worried about heresy above personal salvation. Explain to me where in John 3:16-17, etc. does Jesus speak about heretics.
Where is this heresy you find so crucial to your faith written in the core of what the faith is about. Show me. Your calls of heresy are not defenses, but closed-minded garbage.
Audiofalcon7 11 months ago
@Audiofalcon7
Nice deflection.
I NEVER said Paul was worried about heresy above salvation - straw man argument
I NEVER said that Jesus spoke about heretics SPECIFICALLY in John 3:16-17 - another straw man.
I DID SAY, however, that your claim, AS YOU SAID:
"people who walk towards God with fear and trembling are the ones never concerned about heresy and hypocristy"
I then pointed out that Paul and Jesus WERE concerned about heresy, etc, and thus YOUR point was disproven by the Bible.
andypro7777 11 months ago
@andypro7777
Now, here's what you are doing:
Because the Bible clearly shows that Jesus and Paul WERE concerned about heresy and hypocrisy, you are CLEARLY wrong.
But, instead of just admitting it, you decide to claim somehow that I think they were ONLY concerned with heresy and hypocrisy.
I see what you're doing. You're embarrassed because you were proven wrong so you're trying to shift it on me. I get that.
But the fact remains that Jesus was very concerned about those things and we should be
andypro7777 11 months ago
@andypro7777
Now, the way this relates to Rob Bell and his type of teaching is that people elevate their 'feelings' over the truth of God's Word.
You personally don't 'feel' that someone who's concerned about heretics can be close to God. And thus you make the statement that you made.
My point is that if you're not concerned about heretics and hypocrisy, then you've just decided to get rid of some parts of the Bible that don't line up with your 'feelings'.
andypro7777 11 months ago
And don't try the trick of trying to intimate that because someone is concerned about false teaching then that means that they aren't concerned about salvation. As a matter of fact, Paul was VERY concerned about false teachers BECAUSE of the danger they pose to one's salvation:
"I know that when I leave savage wolves will come among you, not sparing the flock"
Paul's concern was for the salvation of his people, that's why he was worried about heresy.
And Rob Bell is one of the savage wolves.
andypro7777 11 months ago
@andypro7777 I lol'd.
I did also forget I'm also arguing on terms that I shouldn't be. For one, heresy is something Jesus and Paul never mentioned. I will state this clearly, as its popularity came later on in the Orthodox Church and never touched Paul and Jesus. So no, heresy is not there, and its terminology is not used in any parallel manner for as to what you were doing.
Secondly, the claims of hypocrisy is also NOT parallel for as to what you are doing, for several key reasons:
Audiofalcon7 11 months ago
@Audiofalcon7
"heresy is something Jesus and Paul never mentioned".
WRONG. The words of Jesus and Paul in scripture are replete with warnings about false teaching. If you do not know that, then you do not know your Bible.
Heresy is a departure from the orthodox Christian faith, the faith that was 'once for all delivered to the saints".
Rob Bell teaches things contrary to that, hence he is a heretic, or if you'd prefer, a false teacher - Warned about AGAIN and AGAIN by Jesus and Paul.
andypro7777 11 months ago
@andypro7777 How is he a departure from orthodoxy. Explain - is it really THAT hard to explain?
Audiofalcon7 11 months ago
@andypro7777 First reason is that you gave no clear example of how Rob Bell IS a hypocrite in the proper use of the term. Once heresy is out the window, you have to prove that Rob Bell is actually a hypocrite. Did you do this? Well now, I doubt it, as the criteria in Matthew and Romans of what hypocrisy entails is actually nothing Rob Bell falls in line with. Heresy is always the proper word, right?
Second reason is Jesus was concerned with ridding powers and principalities, as it Paul says.
Audiofalcon7 11 months ago
@andypro7777 His hypocrisy was dedicated to the Pharisees, who are very specific. He was not out to catch every last breath of every individual, else he would not mention forgiveness, but replace it with words calling out hypocrisy. I do believe the most coincident Biblical passages for Jesus' calls on hypocrisy, were the Pharisees, who WERE hypocritical...but Jesus' concern was not hypocrisy in general. Where does it say this, and where is it JUST hypocrisy and not pointed at someone specific?
Audiofalcon7 11 months ago
@andypro7777 I am not concerned with hypocrisy - why? I am concerned with my relationship with God. You should be, too, and not attempting to call out an innocent man who you are not allowed to judge or in a position to talk about. Rob Bell, in fact, does not fall in line with the legalistic and political apocalyptic doctrines of the Pharisees. In fact, it lines up with faith...and yet I do not even like Rob Bell much, but rather I do like that he wants to bring theology back to its roots.
Audiofalcon7 11 months ago
@Audiofalcon7
Here's a great statement by you:
"attempting to call out an innocent man who you are not allowed to judge"
Actually, I am COMMANDED, by JESUS CHRIST, to judge this man's teaching. (Once again: Bible 1, You 0)
But, this really gets me: I'M not allowed to judge him as false, but YOU are allowed to judge him as innnocent. How does that work?
Doesn't that make you a hypocrite? Telling me I can't judge and in the very same sentence YOU judge?
andypro7777 11 months ago
@andypro7777 I'm not saying he's innocent or guilty. I kept my personal statements away from him except for one message, where I told you I like the fact that he's using hermeneutics the ancient Jews and Christians used to use. Further, you say "Bible 1, You 0", then cite to somebody else a bunch of verses to connotate verses pertaining to judgement.
Yet none of them connotate to spread the word of your prejudice like you do here. None of them dictate to tell others. They say to avoid them...
Audiofalcon7 11 months ago
@Audiofalcon7
My response with verses was to another person.
Here is what you've done several times:
You've given your OPINION of what you think the Bible says. I have responded that it isn't true. Now, you're claiming because the THREE verses I used don't explicitly say to to anything but 'avoid', that that must be the extent of the Bible's teaching on the subject. It isn't.
I don't have the time to give you a full Bible teaching on this subject, and you've shown it'd be hard to....
andypro7777 11 months ago
@andypro7777 Your plethora of Bible verses makes me feel so convinced that you're definitely not saying an opinion.
lolwut
Audiofalcon7 11 months ago
@Audiofalcon7
And now, it appears that you are making the case that because I didn't cite every Bible verse on the subject in these 500 characters, that those verses and teachings don't exist.
I'm sorry, YOU are responsible for what the Bible teaches. You've already proven to be mostly unteachable, so I'm not even sure the Bible could change you mind.
And that's the danger of false teachers like Bell. Once they start following him, the Bible doesn't matter anymore, it's just "lolwut"
andypro7777 11 months ago
@andypro7777 If you say so, but by trying to get to the core of his teachings you're still judging him by his appearance and nothing of his personal faith. The Bible says to expose...where? I tore down the other 4 verses you said as you misinterpreted them majorly and didn't address it. Keep up with the ad hominem, I'm still asking for verses.
Audiofalcon7 11 months ago
@Audiofalcon7
1. If you had read (you didn't), those verses were not in response to you. They were in response to another poster, who like you, gives their own worldly opinions of what they THINK the Bible says.
HE tried to say that Jesus most strongly condemned those who judge, and I was using those verses to show that in fact Jesus COMMANDS us to judge righteously.
So, how did I misinterpret them? Please be specific.
andypro7777 11 months ago
@andypro7777 I explained each verse. Please go read them. I was a bit disappointed that those verses you gave to him - which are clearly things pertaining to your dissent with my view - were given to him and not directed to me. Oh well. Secondly, my point is that all those verses are pertaining to YOU as an individual, and not US as a collective. If it's so clear, give me an example. It's not hard. Why not be prepared for scrutiny if you give it? ...are you afraid of being wrong or something?...
Audiofalcon7 11 months ago
@Audiofalcon7
Are you afraid of being wrong? I asked a question, you didn't answer. I'll try again:
Are you planning to study the word and be taught by it?, or are you planning to look it up and say that I misused or misinterpreted it?
I've already asked you how I misinterpreted the other verses, and asked you to be specific, and you didn't.
So now, I'm assuming that anything that I show you, you'll just claim it's misinterpreted and therefore doesn't apply.
Are you afraid of being wrong?
andypro7777 11 months ago
@andypro7777 If I am wrong, I can accept it. All truth is God's truth. For you, though, you seem to have some type of ugly, disgusting pretension that whatever YOU say and interpret of a verse, it's of a factual nature the definitive interpretation....even if it goes against history of the religion...so I'm VERY skeptical of your statements.
I'm still waiting for verses, though, else I'll just leave you to rot in your own pool of prejudice.
Audiofalcon7 11 months ago
@Audiofalcon7
Once again, please tell me how I've misinterpreted the other verses. Please be specific.
Please show me how my interpretation goes against the history of the religion. (Hint: Christianity didn't start 8 years ago with Rob Bell).
You question what you call 'my' interpretation, but you've yet to show ANY kind of evidence as to why it's in error. C'mon, let's see it.
Oh, and words like 'ugly', 'disgusting', 'prejudice', etc sound pretty 'judgy' to me.
More hyposcrisy from you.
andypro7777 11 months ago
@andypro7777 It's funny how Rob Bell doesn't meet any critieria of heresy, even if he was a universalist. Guess you don't know who Origen was. Further, I pointed out that none of your verses that you gave implicated a collective direct object. All verses were personal, with no connotation to the whole of Christianity. Go grab a Greek lexicon, translate, and see if everything is, indeed, directed to the whole of the Christian community. That's all.
Audiofalcon7 11 months ago
@andypro7777 It's funny how Rob Bell doesn't meet any critieria of heresy, even if he was a universalist. Guess you don't know who Origen was. Further, I pointed out that none of your verses that you gave implicated a collective direct object. All verses were personal, with no connotation to the whole of Christianity. Go grab a Greek lexicon, translate, and see if everything is, indeed, directed to the whole of the Christian community. That's all.
Audiofalcon7 11 months ago
@Audiofalcon7
So, if I'm hearing you correctly, you're saying that none of those verses were intended for Christianity in general, but rather they only applied to those who were actually there physically at the time? Is that REALLY what you're saying? Jesus' sermon on the mount was only intended as teaching for those who were there?, and NOT for all of Christianity that followed?
And Paul's letter to Romans was ONLY for them, and not for us?
Good luck with that.
andypro7777 11 months ago
So THIS is how far you have to go to deny the clear teaching of the Bible, eh? If you DON'T LIKE what it teaches, you just assume that it doesn't apply to you. Please explain to me which of those things that Jesus said do not 'imply a collective direct object' and are only 'personal, with no connotation to the whole of Christianity'
Go ahead, explain your reasoning.
But, if that's your criteria, WRONG as it as, then you can get what you want...
andypro7777 11 months ago
If you think that, then you get to believe exactly as YOU'D like to believe, and anything that the Bible teaches that you don't like, you just throw away and say it wasn't intended for you.
Well, you win, I can't defeat that logic. If that is you biblical hermeneutic, then no one will be able to teach you anything. You will never be able to learn from the Word, since you can throw out the bits that you don't like.
Truly you are one of Rob Bell's greatest disciples.
andypro7777 11 months ago