The Collapse of Civilization

[lingwa3]

Mayan calendar 2012 its all coming tru

[Israe5l]

I always thought, we will come up with an anti-gravity device and save the civilization.

As for system, I am not sure we will ever have the objective view of the system. By knowing about the system, we will be a bit be more informed. Thats all.

[TJae1]

still don't c any sock puppets ~

[SilentBud420]

we gotta be in line with ourself AKA the universe. we all have to be in line with reality. everyone who relys on things that are not based in reality AKA money and jobs that rape the earth for survival are gonna not be able to survive.... and the meek will inherit the earth!

[wooblyjelly]

It's war and chaos weather also frightening.

[miskokinoo]

My opinion is that this global civilization - this way of life - needs to vanish. Once and for all. This ideology of supremacy over all other life forms is, at the very least, absolutely nonviable. It is ecocidal and hence suicidal. Every season of producing a monocrop such as corn for example destroys up to 2000 years of topsoil. Right now, every day 200 species are massacred by this civilization. Time to think things over. Civilization, and especially industrial civilization is unsustainable.

[mogulwraith]

Hmmm... not that I disagree with you but... I've heard this before. From Theodore Kaczynski. (Of course you have to get past his social hang-ups and rants about "Leftists" to find any valuable statement in his manifesto)

[2bsirius]

I deny being the Unibomber! ;0)

[Battery9876]

I think our economic system is far too chaotic. They should put measures in place to reduce speculation and reduce the probabilities of bubbles happening.

Besides the economic problems, what worries me the most is the extraterrestrial presence here. What are they doing? What do they have in store for us?

David Jacobs is convinced that they are going to integrate our society soon. Maybe they're waiting for the complete collapse of our civilization to legitimate what they're going to do.

[Battery9876]

Here's a interview with David Jacobs:

watch?v=qzoermiB678

All abduction researchers find basically the same patterns. That's worrying to say the least.

But in fact when I think about it maybe them taking over is the only real solution. because there's no way we can survive in the long term on our own (for a very long time like millions of years I mean ).

[mogulwraith]

Jesus Christ and Aliens will destroy us all.

[7299MM]

Animals have usually survived better than humans in desperate times.

Maybe it NEEDS to happen because we have nowhere further to go.

The more 'advanced' we become, i.e. the more we depend on technology - the more vunerable we become.

[Kenabis82]

We need to embrace Nikola Tesla (Socialism) and forget about Edison (capitalism)

[CHASCHARLTON]

2bsirius we are paying farmers not to grow grain i really don't think it's that bad!

[aleksinjapan]

Nice video. A bit scary indeed, but good to hear somebody cares.

[Israe5l]

The death of civilization to me means we are giving up humanity. There will be no humans.

We will kill each other without any feelings. Just as we kill cows for to eat. But there will be a new law. I think it will come as Computer=God. A completly logistical society.

[kingsman565]

"But there will be a new law. I think it will come as Computer=God. A completly logistical society."

If you referring to the Venus project then I'd rather live in the jungle with a spear.

[He101A]

Civilization will still continue, because human beings have brains and they are resourceful. If oil runs low, we can use unconventional oil from shale and tar sands, nuclear power, coal power, natural gas, geothermal, wind power, cold fusion, electromagnetic, hydroelectric power, air compression motors(invented by a Frenchman), water power engines(invented by Stanley Myer), and solar power. Food can be grown anywhere. It can be grown on your yard. Don't worry.

[subz4155]

About a century ago the Earth had 1 billion people and there was civilization. Even if 5 billion of the 6 billion die due to starvation, there will be civilization. I do not see the problem.

[Lawnmower233]

That's a very childish syllogism.

The surface of their earth has been deforested by 80%, strip mined and polluted. The soil has been eroded (millions of metric tonnes a year flow as sediment to the sea) and minerals and nutrients have exponentially been plundered from it due to overexploitation. There is no resource base left on which 1 billion people can survive. A good percentage of the remaining arable land has been paved over as well. How do you think the earth can hold even half a billion?

[morlenheim]

Even if there are just 1 million people left on earth, technically civilization *still* exists.

The Professor.

[K0razone]

Richard Heinberg posits that only certain societies have reached the level of sophistication in social organisation, ability to do work, etc. that could be deemed "civilisation". He calls the other simpler human societies, that have existed over time, "cultures". I think perhaps alot of other people knowledgeable on the subject would have a similar view of civilisation: that a society must possess the requisite criteria to be called one. Would whats left after collapse really fit the description

[Battery9876]

The surface of the Earth has been deforested by 50%, not 80.

[JanLauGe]

Depends if you include pre-industrial deforestation

[Mechman064]

I think the super wealthy people who control the country are afraid of exploding 3rd world populations (as am I). They've managed to get the west to throttle back on reproduction but they've had no luck with the south or east. I think biofuels are an attempt to bring about a food crisis earlier rather than later (when the problem will be even worse). They can't change the insane (be fruitful and multiply) commandments of all these religions so they're taking care of the problem by limiting food.

[Mechman064]

2. A second result is that food will be more expensive for the west too, even for western countries who's currencies aren't collapsing the way ours is. The US is going to see massive problems very soon due to the collapse of the dollar. I've seen peak oil coming for 4 years and the economic collapse for about 10 months. I've been getting ready for both expensive food and gas as well as social unrest.

I don't have kids so I will watch all this happen with sort of a sarcastic rolling of the eyes.

[2bsirius]

Yes, what's happening now makes some of my earlier videos seem like fortune telling. But believe me I'm NOT at all happy about what is happening. I wish I has lots of feed back about how stupid I was and how nothing I thought was possible in the future actually happened. YES..."be fruitful and multiply"...It seems more like it should be rephrased to "breed, overpopulate and destroy" At least that's what seems to be happening. Good comment. Thanks.

[SilverWealth23]

Great Video! I love hearing this from another woman! We all need to prepare our loved ones now. This is no joke, who cares if they call you "crazy". We've been stocking up since April and are ready for the worse.

God bless.

[msdragonfly1]

it's scary how much all food prices have gone up

[bushfingers]

Too many people. Too much damage to the environment. Too little group cohesion and identity. Too many people who couldn't care less.

This time, I think the doomsday people are probably right.

[jamesrobert2]

I bet experts saw this coming. We should have repaired our electrical infrastructure, instead of government misuse of tax resources.

Electric cars might have been ready, sooner.

But, perhaps we won't see those becoming common. Very interesting idea about precarious escalation of certain weak points.

My sister has 20 acres of isolated property.

She knows a lot about raising food. With these prices, she will probably start planting and milking, again.

[2bsirius]

Excellent points, jr2!

[SuperiorMind]

Very accurate - localizing our needs(food, water, power, etc) dependence is one change to the system(s) that should help. Lotsa useful information here.

[redfurrymonster]

It is a scary and sobering article.

[lirpa69]

You're not going to read this, but I am very upset with you for leaving over that turdbrain, Inmendham.

[djgbroughton07]

yes I believe that the world food shortages, recession,civil unrest will happen and there isn't much we can do about it. when this will happen. Civilization collapse it's a frightening thing to think about. Where in the world would you be save? I think in country with a low population and away from other countries. New Zealand comes to mind. Population 4 million can produce heaps of food , Also 80 percent hydro power as long as the lakes are kept full as i'm a NZer I think i will go back there

[obamatime]

It's like Kat Edmonson sings....... "Be the change that you want to see"!

[ehswan]

"2bsirius". You do seem to have a good heart. But I think you are wrong in that the world has limits which we have exceeded and therefore are destroying. In the end there will be far fewer of us, one way or another. P.S. I do like the innocent woman who posts these videos.

[gadikan]

4)

. Researchers say that over the past 30 years, food production has outpaced population increase. Nevertheless, food shortages prevail in large areas of the world because many people do not have sufficient land to grow food or enough money to buy food. In developing countries, some 1.2 billion people subsist on a dollar (U.S.) a day or less.

[gadikan]

3)

But, if these deaths had been spread evenly over the period, war would have killed around 2,500 people every day, that is over 100 people an hour, round the clock, for ninety years." Can you imagine the grief and pain this must have caused the millions of relatives and friends of those who lost their lives?

Despite the fact that the world produces plenty of food, the features characterizing the last days include food shortages.

[gadikan]

2)

states a scholarly report from the Worldwatch Institute. In his book Humanity—A Moral History of the Twentieth Century, Jonathan Glover writes: "An estimate for the period from 1900 until 1989 is that war killed 86 million people. . . . Death in twentieth-century war has been on a scale which is hard to grasp. Any averaging out of the numbers of deaths is artificial, since about two-thirds (58 million) were killed in the two world wars.

[gadikan]

"A Beginning of Pangs of Distress"

"Nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom," said Jesus, "and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another." He added: "All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress." (Matthew 24:7, 8) Let us examine "these things" individually.

[Colston]

I also noticed that you spoke of the 'markets' as if they were an almost sacred mechanism that needed protection...

Am I naive to wish ill upon the system that controls the flow of goods and capital? When I think about the 'market' I see highly testosteroned young men gambling people's lives and other people's money for kicks and obscene earnings and a system that is out of control...

[Colston]

You seem genuinely concerned by the article. Is it reasonable to take these warnings seriously? As a member of the general public I tend to give proclamations by scientists a wide berth. If I allowed myself to be buffeted about by each warning given by an earnest scientist I would be giddy.

[ehswan]

OH YEAH, serious people are thinking about our scarcity problems and they have concluded that the problem is that there are far too many of us. With 4 out of 5 of us dead the problem is solved. For those of you who are repelled by this information I have a suggestion, GET REAL.

[2bsirius]

I also have a suggestion...Go f**k yourself...I take it you will be one of the survivors, ehswan...Somehow, I'd rather be dead than live in the world you are advocating for...You must be a fan of Mad Max...I would say good luck....But the truth is I hope people like you find themselves out of luck and SOON!

[PriestAscetic]

I've heard there is hope for Bio Diesel replacing many man made necessities.  A couple of months ago a jet flew with jet fuel derived from algae.

[2bsirius]

Great! My only question is where did the algae come from? What species in the biosphere depended on it?

[PriestAscetic]

Humans depend on it, it's the organic hope. One species is Botryococcus braunii. There has been a large amount of research on this subject beginning in 1976 with the Aquatic species program. No research has been done on the laps in ethics between that time in now.

[2bsirius]

Very interesting. Thanks!

[valhala56]

Diverting corn to biofuels brought about these unintended consequences. Since Big time capital investement in the biofuel refineries are already complete, then there is only several alternatives. Stop with corn based ethanol,scrap the refinieries or try to adapt the refinieries to switch grass. One possibility is begin construction of bottom of the chain food production i.e. plankton. It could be processed into a paste somewhat like soy. N. Korea is been in fammine for many years. 2 million dead

[2bsirius]

YES...I've been making many of the point you make, valhala56, on some of the pro-biofuel videos...Some of the responses back have been that we need to switch to a kind of bio-fuel made from algae, but I haven't had the time to research what this might do to the marine environment from which it would need to be harvested. Excellent comment, by the way.

[morelshaman]

I am impressed - some new info, but mostly i have heard elsewhere.

Get your compost heap going - invest in food that can be stored long-term.

Yes - people need to think in terms of holistic systems.

Convert some cash into gold and silver coins. BURN YOUR CREDIT CARDS.

Buy How-to books on farming, energy production and simple survival.

Throw your Cell phone away! They are tracking devices!

[2bsirius]

EXCELLENT ADVICE! Even if the worst doesn't happen, as it now looks clearly it might, following your advice can only have a good outcome.

[valhala56]

Soylent Green..... The Haiti food riots is the first I have heard of food crisis, overppulation since the 1970's. As with much in history, warnings such as the movie Soylent Green were unheeded as we merrily drive to the edge off the cliff and some are tying to apply the brakes before we go over the abyss. Ted Turner commented about this very subject recently getting the typical round of jeers from the right. I have to be the pessimist but hummanity refuses to work together.

[2bsirius]

I had forgotten how frightening Soylent Green was. Yes, you're right. We seem to be acting as if we don't need to think about any of this. We will likely just continue to drive our SUVs until the ground gives way beneath us.

[valhala56]

I think most of these problem could be solved. Humans are clever enough to overcome technical problems. The Hurdle is greed, wars of ideology, division in even our country on a hundred issues, yet we have to get the world on a cooperative bandwagon for some meausre of success. I don't see it happening any time soon. I suppose we can still try though.

[2bsirius]

Yes, why not? Cooperation may be the only way forward. We've tried almost every thing else, haven't we?

[elstonieo]

wahoo my copy of NewScientist turned up today :D

if anyone else wants to get hold of this copy its avalible from mags-uk . com

[tribalspacemonkey]

have you read ishmael by daniel quinn?

[2bsirius]

Yes, absolutely! In fact, I've almost finished reading it again. It's always to read it again from time to time.

[royphil345]

You're never going to accomplish anything. If you actually do try to take any action at all... you'll go up against a particular political party... an issue... waste your energy developing ideas for change the rulers of the world couldn't care less about... ALL CHASING SHADOWS. How can you fight what you can't see?

[2bsirius]

I can become the cartographer of shadow maps.

[royphil345]

You don't get it. There is plenty of empty, unprofitable farmland. There is no such thing as money. It's all worthless paper. Think strategically??? The people who run this world create the money out of NOTHING, giving them absolute power and EVERYTHING works EXACTLY how they plan. You don't think they know what they're doing? All of these problems have been caused intentionally so we will accept a global government that comes in to "rescue" us. The mag you were holding is called "propaganda".

[royphil345]

I recommend you research "the new world order", "the illuminati", "Bohemian Grove"...

How can anyone not see that fear and disaster is being intentionally spread around the world in every way possible at this time? Europe has been swallowed up by the EU and there's talk of a "North American Union". Do you think they're kidding. Fear and disaster will convince the American people to accept it. Kudos for wanting a better world, but if you don't even know you're under attack... Wake up! Job #1.

[2bsirius]

I know the theories which attach to the "Bohemian Grove"...I've watched Alex Jones' documentary about it...It is not beyond imaging that people with a lot of wealth and power want to subvert power or even as the more extreme theories postulate, find immortality and eliminate most of us to make room for themselves. But I don't see how [even if these things are true, as you seem to hint] it changes the fact that we need to think strategically. Bottom up power is the only hope, isn't it?

[royphil345]

You're going to have to fight and take back what's yours. That's the way it's always been. That's the way it will always be. You can't do that if you can't even see the truth. How or why would we "join up" if you're completely out of touch with reality? What's the use? No time for your hippy crap. There has always been a struggle for world empire. It would be very naive to think there isn't one going on now because the media owned by a handful of "globalist" (giveaway) puppets tells you so.

[royphil345]

Yes... They believe they are the protectors of the Earth. They do want to reduce the population to "save the Earth" and they feel they must have complete control over the Earth to have any chance of pulling off their main goal. Their goal is to prove to God that this world where sin is permitted can be controlled and will not necessarily destroy itself as He said. Google "new Tower of Babel".

[royphil345]

You may not believe in God or the occult, but they do. I see many examples every day where the "elite" tells people straight out what they intend to do, but people have become so corrupt and lazy... spiritually blind to what's going on. There's something to it if you ask me. It's hard to believe anyone can't see the one world government of the end time taking shape... THROUGH STEALTH, LIES AND MURDER. Who do you think is at the top of the pyramid?

[royphil345]

You're going to read your propaganda magazine... Ne afraid... Blame the collapse of the USA on "what naturally happens"... Beg the new government to save you if you're still alive... and then remember that they are liars and killers and they now rule the entire world... That's where you're headed.

[FeelFreeToArgue]

But we also need to get the media out of the hands the very few people who control the vast majority of everything we see and hear, and therefore can think about. Why isn't it common knowledge that we went into Iraq to TURN THE OIL OFF? Greg Palast has the oil company memos talking about the plan from a year before the war in his book Armed Madhouse. We turn the oil off so a few may profit, the world starves, inefficient biofuels controlled by ADM come into vogue, more riches, more starvation...

[FeelFreeToArgue]

Based on my reading of Naomi Klein's book, The Shock Doctrine, I would say the problem is corporatism. It is a selfish, amoral, force and it seeks to drive all decision making. It must be fought, and that means we need to empower the bureaucracies in Washington that regulate all businesses and give them the enforcement powers they need to protect us. We need to start caring why the crap in Wal-Mart is so cheap, connecting that our comfort is someone else's misery.

[Gimmeabreakman]

Good video.

[slobomotion]

I really enjoy your videos and agree with most of what you say. I have sensed a lot of things you talk about all my life, and felt very alone because of that.

[beforenightfall]

Every civilisation falls, why are we so arrogant to assume our notion of civilisation is immovable?

The shards of our capital nightmare is coming to an end, we should champion this & encourage a new enlightenment-use the resources on a cross partisan basis-stop this diluted ideal of the individual-there is no individuality in a capital realm. Individualism is served via proxy, a made to measure ego, indifference is their emblem.

There are only tokens of civility, handed out in dark alleys

[touchingstoves]

my friend recently completed his phd in sustainability. i recall from a conversation, that his thesis was mostly focused toward the task of testing whether something was truly sustainable. if that's anything to go by, there's still a lot work to be done, before we get to the bottom of things.

[arbsystems]

You really really need to read Ishmael, it would show you how civilization really works. seriously it would do you good. you can get for just about $5.00 bucks from amazon(.)com

[bbbleaver]

a history of famine has gone hand in hand with civilization. it's inherit in this culture, this way of life. civ. is a self eliminating strategy and this is a good thing. it is a singular culture and has trampled under it's wheels of "progress" all other cultures because of it's unrelenting belief it is the one right way. what we need to do is begin living another way.

[FantasmaBAnco]

I think we've seriously got to take action on reducing world population. Our species is breeding like roaches... you can't expect to be able to save the world from global warming/ famine/ war (usually over resources and/or land, remember) and the collapse of society when the biggest factor in all of these things (ie too many humans wanting to live the "good life" with 2.4 children, a house in the suburbs and an SUV) remains unchecked.

[FantasmaBAnco]

We are only one of many many species on this planet, yet we consistently behave as though we are the only one that matters.

[HumanTruth0000]

good video. Theoretically, it is not all hopeless though. A fundamental change in mindset of civilization is obviously needed. But we got the food, and we got potential sustainable energy sources. We just have not done it properly or been in equilibrium. We might be forced to, the hard way.

[maiyana45]

All excellent points! Large corporations are bringing this world down. There is no benefit for them if we conserve and there also seems to be no real push for developing alternatives. We are a world bent on mass consumption, with the thinking that the high cost will eventually cause conservation and bring consumption and prices down. Perhaps we as individuals can bring about some moderate change, but are there enough of us willing to do that?

[FartheadOgre]

eat the rich.

[tooltime9901]

I live in Illinois and I can add one more thing to your list, and that is farm land being lost to Urban sprawl

[lordblazer]

Oklahoma doesn't have this problem. Thankfully.

[pythagoras9]

When i mention that when civilizations fall and lead to more advanced civilizations i don't mean that the civilizations that overthrough them become more advanced, i meant that civilizations become more advanced by learning from the old civilizations that fell in the past. When i mention that civilization can be wiped out by natural disaster i mean completely wiped out.

[pythagoras9]

I accidentally typed overthrough instead of overthrow.

I hate making errors!

[pythagoras9]

A civilization that overthrows another can become more advanced by learning from it though because this has happened before aswell.

[2bsirius]

Oh, OK...Don't bother replying to my earlier comment. I didn't see this thread until now. Yes, OK...Agreed...Often a more "advanced" civilization defeats a less advanced on...TRUE...But I don't see that as a collapse...of all civilization. At the fall of the Roman Empire, such a complete collapse did occur.

[pythagoras9]

I don't know much about roman history because it is not one of my favourite civilizations but i do know that it is mostly christianity in a sense which is responsible for the collapse of the roman empire.  And christianity learned a lot from them especially about government and organization, and christianity even adopted and replaced certain pagan festivals. I think the reason why the roman empire collapsed completely is because it was barbaric and self-destructive.

[angryislander56]

and they ran out of affordable energy

[zzz33333]

hahaha angryislander56 good joke

[Mork5]

there is no danger to civilization as a whole (remember how democracy and economy boomed after WW2) its all about the inevitable transition from waste oil to efficient renewables that slowly we become aware of.

not civilization, our habits may have to collapse.

and sadly it will unnecessarily cost maybe millions of lives because the current economy has no midterm timescale regulations implemented.

[Mork5]

only a law that shares have to be hold 20 years before they could be sold at the stock market could have an impact on the corporations who are not only economical but ecological agents now, and they are the dominant ones, not humans or humanity.

[angryislander56]

I agree that corporate control is the dominant

social problem.The reduced carbon foot print of

concerned individuals is pointless if the

corporations driving us are only accountable to

the short term profit margin, and can manipulate

governments to their myopic goals.

[zzz33333]

right now i am reading "discipline and punish" by michel foucault. ever read it?

he opens with this grisly shit: 5 page account of the execution of a convicted regicide (that's conspiracy to kill regality, right? he tried to kill the king of france)

now, this is in the mid 1700's. early stuff. way before anyone every incorporated a business.

this man tried to assasinate the king and was quartered by horses. know what it means?

let me ask - was everything cool?

was shit cool back then?

[angryislander56]

I said dominant.

Not only.

And no I haven't read that.

I was mostly speaking about pressing

environmental problems not the general malaise

of humanity.

[zzz33333]

well, there IS no "general malaise of humanity!"

isn't that a mindfuck?

there is nothing wrong with HUMANITY, there's a LOT wrong with civilization, and it's been that way since its birth BEFORE corporations BEFORE industry BEFORE america.

[angryislander56]

Those fucking lizards

foisting their evil apple of civilization

on that nice young couple

er wait...maybe that was a different fairy tale

[2bsirius]

I've read the account you're referring too...And no everything wasn't cool in the mid-eighteenth century or at lots and lots of other times in history....The problem though is that if [as you so often advocate, Zack] civilization completely collapses, it will mean that there are no checks on violence...The Reign of Terror in France followed in about twenty years after the grisly execution you mention, and it made the horror you point to look like a summer walk. Why? No RULES at all = VIOLENCE!

[zzz33333]

this shows how much you know about what, which seems to be very little.

the Reign of Terror was NOT "beyond civilization."

it was evidence of the worst parts of civilization.

do your god-damned research.

[2bsirius]

More pointless aggression, zzz3333. You do this a lot. Why? What's the point? Where in my comment did I say that the Reign of Terror was "beyond civilization"? Please show me.

[pythagoras9]

Even though civilizations fall they usually lead to a more advanced civilization which learns from the old one. The only thing that can wipe us out is some kind of natural disaster.

[2bsirius]

Often the "civilization" which replaces a more advanced one is less advanced. The Roman civilization fell to the barbaric Germanic tribes. The resulting "civilization" then fell into decline for almost 1000 years...The cultivated ancient Chinese civilization fell to the forces of Genghis Kahn, who was also a leader of barbarian forces. No plagues or natural disasters had a major impact on these declines...The civilizations themselves,as Jared Diamond's said,CHOSE to fall in some sense to fall

[pythagoras9]

I always thought that the roman empire began to fall when the emperor constantine converted to christianity in the year 312, in fact edward gibbon mentions this in his writings. Technically the barbaric germanic tribes were not much of a civilization.

[2bsirius]

Yes, I agree that the Germanic tribes were not much of a civilization...But they were the next social order in many of the the regions which had been controlled by the Romans...I'm not sure why this fact is support for you...

[randyhelzerman]

I read once that all other civilizations we've ever studied have one thing in common: they all fell :-( Rising and falling is just something that civilizations do. Trying to prevent it is like trying to prevent death: we can lower our cholesterol and get more exercize, but sooner or later it is inevitable.

[2bsirius]

While I agree...We very small cogs in the wheel of civilization and we can't change what is going to happen, can't we at least try our best to see that we keep the best things about our past. During the medieval period, the best of Greek and Roman culture was preserved [usually within the cultures of the Near East] to be rediscovered at the beginning of the Renaissance.

[randyhelzerman]

Hi 2bsirius, sure, this doesn't exculpate us of moral culpability at all. We all should be doing our part.

[CousinoMacul]

Randy,

But civilization itself has yet to fall. It has survived for thousands of years.

[randyhelzerman]

Go down to Mexico and see some Incan and Mayan pyramids. In the height of those civilizations, a few hundred Spaniards would never have been able to take over the continent.

[CousinoMacul]

I'm not denying that Randy. I'm just saying that as "civilizations" have indeed have all fallen, "Civilization" has persisted. I think it would be the fallacy of equivocation to conclude that the fall of "Civilization" is inevitable because every "civilization" (except of course those that still persist today) has eventually fallen. :-P

[randyhelzerman]

Sure Javier. Probably as long as there are humans from here out, there will be some of them practicing something recognizable as "civilization". But all those palaces, all those temples, all those buildings, all our buildings, will one day be crumbling like theirs, slowly being overgrown with plants ....

[CousinoMacul]

"slowly being overgrown with plants ...."

... or buried under the foundations of future civilizations. :-)

[lordblazer]

China proves it all wrong so far.

[RosieDesire]

A few hundreds spaniards never did manage to take over a continent... well at least not with out the help of a few billion bacteria and viruses :)

[randyhelzerman]

True enough RosieDesire :-)

[BrightHelmVellas]

Nice eye. Is it yours?

[2bsirius]

No, my eyes are a dull average brown.

[BrightHelmVellas]

Brown eyes are cool. I doubt yours are dull.

[FamilyDynamics]

The food crisis is real, key in "food crisis" on YT.

[2bsirius]

Also, take a look at the Herald Tribune article I posted in the sidebar. Yes, you're right it is VERY REAL!

[BrightHelmVellas]

Western 'civilisation' is in already in a state of disequalibrium and arguably has been for some time now, I think that it just takes a while for the crisis to mount up to a point where is obviously dangerous to the system itself and by that time it is too late. Good riddance to this system; the oil economy, monoculture, the mass production economy of scale, capitalism. It's never made us happy, quite the opposite. I just hope it's downfall it as least painful as possible, but thats up to us.

[BrightHelmVellas]

On a personal level its probably a good idea to start getting used to living on signifigantly less everything. It's going to be hard for us in England in coming decades - so many people on such a small patch of earth.

[BrightHelmVellas]

And so many people without a clue. That's the scary part.

[2bsirius]

Some part of me agrees with you...But when we say "good riddance" to the old system don't we have to worry about what we might be saying hello to?

[BrightHelmVellas]

We can't say what will come after. The collapse of the present system will happen overnight. I think it will more likely be a long succession of worstening economic recessions and increased political repression (the re-emergence of fascism in the West seems likely) as the elite classes attempt to hold on to their privaleges in a shrinking global economy. It really depends on how people in general react, how smart we are collectively.

[BrightHelmVellas]

Sorry that should read:

'The collapse of the present system will NOT happen overnight.'

[BrightHelmVellas]

We should be preparing for this now obviously. That is what is frustrating, how the public are being kept in the dark over almost any issue of importance. Or communication networks are so tightly controlled and by such selfish interests, it is hard to be hopeful.

[Loreleila]

I entirely agree there is no joined up thinking, nor would I classify what we live in as civilisation. It's based upon consuming as much as possible without consideration for the consequences, short term greed and apparent power over long term consequnces. Unless the basic thinking behind this changes, and the majority realise they don't need most of what they are told to desire I don't see much else altering. A whole change in attitude and awareness needs to take place imo.

[2bsirius]

Yes!!

[fr3thinker]

OK, this comment might be seen as negative - but I see it more as frustration - so we do as you say (we are doing as you suggest actually) and yet other people around the world continue to over populate the world because we cut back? Or governments begin to subsidise food prices more and people over the world stop rioting and continue to over populate it... 7 billion people on this tiny planet? It's insane - and it's a insanity of all the people on this planet.

[fr3thinker]

Yes, biofuel is of course ill-thought out. And nuclear isn't as clean as claimed because nuclear technology is in it's infancy and the pollution possibility is potentially disasterous. Wind power I see as most potentially fruitful - and even this needs to be made more efficient. Solar seems inefficient when weighed up against the energy needed to contruct the panels. Water power is of course an option but has to be done without environmental damange. Population remains far too high I think.

[RosieDesire]

Wind power has problems too. They use an incredible amount of materials to build, and they produce noise pollution but I think that is manageable compared to many other energy sources. Solar is more efficient that you might think and can be used on many areas and surfaces that other energy sources are crippled. We need a combination of solutions that work well together not just a silver bullet. Transportation of energy can be an issue as well.

[valhala56]

Nuclear Fusion is a little talked about technology. If humanity can survive long enough for Fusion technology to be devoloped and implemented then we would benefit with non polluting almost limitless energy. CERN is leading in devloping this technology. Keep in mind Fusion can use sea water as fuel and should not have any radioaction contamination. I was hoping to see my own "Cold Fusion reactor" by the time I was 50. In the meantime I am installing Solar in my house.

[CousinoMacul]

The problem with overpopulation isn't the raw number of people, it's the amount of resources they use versus how much we can produce. From that perspective, the developed (and rapidly developing) world is a much bigger threat to the earth than impoverished areas where the actual population is growing the fastest.

[fr3thinker]

No, numbers per se is a problem with a 6/7 billion world population whether the world can feed itself or not. There are growing social pressures even in areas where there is enough food. Plus, the over population in the developed world, which gets enough food itself still and is putting even more pressure on the undeveloped world, is also created huge social pressures both in the developed world and in the undeveloped world.

[CousinoMacul]

fr3thinker,

Let's compare the actual numbers (these are 2004 numbers) of grain consumption (for both eating and feedstock, but NOT biofuels) for the US (developed) and China (rapidly developing). The US consumes 935 kg grain per capita annually (~290 M tons total). China consumes 291 kg per capita (~400 M tons total). It seems pretty clear to me that population growth in the undeveloped world isn't as big a threat as the rise in per capita consumption the developing world.

[fr3thinker]

CousinoMacul, I agree with you on the food consumption, but I think social pressures in the developed countries is not about food. Yes, when and if it becomes about food then that will further exaserbate the situation of this world. Social problems can come from too many people living too closely together, regardless of whether there is enough food or not. It's not natural for people to live so densely populated - be it in towns or cities. It's about the conditions we live in and our proximity.

[CousinoMacul]

Are you subscribed to NewScientist too? I'm subscribed to it and Scientific American. Those are GREAT publications.

The more I read about it, the more I'm convinced that this push towards biofuels (at least our current technology--I do see redemption in possible future technologies, such as pond algae bio-engineered to produce petroleum derivatives) is a really bad idea.

[2bsirius]

Excellent point...Yes, I think finding an alternative power source is important...But as you point out, it is important not to use vital food crops and acreage to produce that fuel.

[RosieDesire]

I think there is a balance but we haven't got there yet. I believe the solution is not to rely on one solution ;). We have to combine sources wind, solar, water, geothermal, magnets, biofuels, and nuclear among others. I don't think we should use non-renewable resources as fuel (with few exceptions) because they are better used for material (such as plastic). Biofuels will make more sense to me when we can better use the non-edible parts in fuel production then we can have both food and fuel.