Emergence

[iWantYouToHaveThis]

this sounds like spontaneous order



[MoldySandwich999]

The song is Nothing Owed by Bonobo.

Thanks for making the vid. I'm rather new to this particular since I've made the discovery of the field while reading on programming topics. Looks like I found another reason to stay up late. Ah, so much new to learn and discover. Squee!

[cmpresents]

Absolutley none of these videos explains consciousness.

[Mousyable]

I strongly suggest the book "Physics of Emergence and Organization" - I. Licata & A. Sakajy Editors - World Scientific, 2008. It is illuminating....

[aaronlikesalex]

if we all die in 2012 i would he happy because people suck and i hate them all fuck you to faggot

[DELPHIIII]

fascinating and hypnotizing. excellent music.

[BeekersSqueakers]

This is pretty good music. What's the name of the song?

[hamiltonjsh]

yeah i would also like to know what song this is? thnx

[virtualreal]

@BeekersSqueakers

The artist is Bonobo, a DJ from the UK. I don't know the track title, sorry

[ThisComesAround]

It's easy to imagine animals without consciousnness that play the rules of nature given to them by DNA since they are just passive players with brains that obey the rules.

But if consciousness is another complexity and DNA sets the rules for consciousness, then who are the players that play the game of consciousness when they are consciously aware?

[Funzelwicht]

Wonderful, just great!

[MrBr3w]

Ive been interested in Emergence for a while now and it never ceases to amaze me.

Great video!

[TomatoBreadOrgasm]

Thanks for this. I'm currently studying for what I hope will be a PhD in NeuroLinguistics in the future and it never ceases to stupefy me that so many see emergence as, to quote a colleague, "absurd and presumptuous." To me, and I think you'd agree, the phenomenon is a plain a fact as evolution, it's the mechanisms and math behind it that must be discovered. Also, great music and great editing.

[DrakeDun]

1 + 1 = 2. The first 1 is not a 2. The second 1 is not a 2. So where's the 2 coming from? You may say that 1 and 1 make the same quantity as that idenitifed by 2, but where is the property of *twoness* coming from?

Magic man dun it. Praise Jesus.

Disrespect intended for the idea, not the video, which was quite nice.

[Luvina07]

Thanks for this video. Great images and the music is very inspiring. I classified it in my collective intelligence playlist because its my field of work where we understand emergence as a phenomena that arises from the center when collective intelligence, consciousness or wisdom is present.

[MysteriousMaskMan]

GREAT VIDEO, BonoboBill !!!

FIVE STARS !!!

[ren5311]

You have made a claim: emergence exists.

Now, on to the evidence. Name one emergent property. That is, name one property known to be more than the sum of individual parts.

Emergence and complexity are being confused.

[BonoboBill]

Well, I tried to make it clear in the video, particularly with the last quote, that I don't believe emergence is yet up to par with the empirical sciences. I do still regard mostly as a "philosophical curiosity."

[BonoboBill]

Secondly, I happen to believe that, rather than emergence being a tangible phenomena, emergence would be more of an APPROACH to understanding complex systems.

For instance, I don't believe it is reasonable to attempt to understand the motions of a swarm of insects in terms of its individual constituents, it terms of the relatively chaotic movement of the individuals. Rather, one needs to understand the motion of the swarm in terms of the swarm

[ren5311]

I would tend to agree with you.

Studying the epi- and metaphenomena of complex systems is one approach. Reductionistic analysis of component parts is another. However, the philosophical concept of emergence seems to state that given the two approaches, never the twain shall meet.

Outside of quantum mechanics (maybe), I don't know of any property that CAN'T be approached in a reductionistic manner.

[MysteriousMaskMan]

"You have made a claim: emergence exists.

Now, on to the evidence. Name one emergent property."

ren5311, the emergence is OBVIOUS in the huge flock of birds or a big school of fishes that move as it was a single body; in the way stars and cosmic dust and gases align to form the spiral of a galaxy; etc

[MysteriousMaskMan]

For instance, I remember that, in the past, when I was developing a graphic design software with a large number of functionalities and then I started to test the program I got enormously surprised and stunned to observe that NEW functionalities spontaneously emerged through combination of more basic ones. This was totally unexpected ( I did not program the software to do that ! ).

[MysteriousMaskMan]

In other words, the EMERGENT PROPERTY is a STRUCTURAL, FUNCTIONAL AND/OR BEHAVIORAL PATTERN that does not exist in the isolated components.

[ren5311]

"In other words, the EMERGENT PROPERTY is a STRUCTURAL, FUNCTIONAL AND/OR BEHAVIORAL PATTERN that does not exist in the isolated components."

I accept your definition with one exception: the pattern cannot exist as a mere summation of the components.

Now name an emergent property that fits that definition.

I'll come back to the message board in a couple more months.

[ren5311]

"This was totally unexpected ( I did not program the software to do that ! )."

Are you confusing emergence and chaos theory?

[ren5311]

"ren5311, the emergence is OBVIOUS in the huge flock of birds or a big school of fishes that move as it was a single body; in the way stars and cosmic dust and gases align to form the spiral of a galaxy; etc"

It is not obvious to me. Saying it is obvious is another way of saying you cannot explain it.

[themilitantatheist]

What is not obvious to you? Bird flock in a way that they do not pre-arrange, the structure is ad-hoc and dynamic. If it is not coming from the interaction between the isolated components then where do you propose it is coming from?

A better example is the human brain - a single neuron is not in any way conscious; its barely able to perform computation. Yet when you connect 100 billion or so together conscious thought emerges as a property of the system.

[ren5311]

"Bird flock in a way that they do not pre-arrange, the structure is ad-hoc and dynamic."

And yet exists as a summation of the individual movements of the birds. That this property is somehow "emergent" because it is complex is non-"obvious".

"A better example is the human brain - a single neuron is not in any way conscious; its barely able to perform computation. "

A reflex arc consists of two neurons. One neuron functions quite well.

[ren5311]

"Yet when you connect 100 billion or so together conscious thought emerges as a property of the system"

Again: complexity.

Your statement can be restated thusly:

1. Combination of many, small, actions that would difficult to study in a reductionist fashion combine to form a complex macrobehavior.

2. Magic happens.

3. This complex action somehow becomes "emergent".

It remains: show me a single property that is "emergent" that can't be studied in a reductionistic fashion.

[FriendlyCougar]

Ren5311, you cannot explain consciousness in a reductionist fashion, since consciousness cannot properly be explained at all. We have no circumstantial amount of evidence to say that the consciousness arises from neurons than we do that arises from the actual tissue of the brain, or perhaps the cells themselves. Consciousness is a puzzle, that has yet to be solved. In fact, it may arise from something having nothing to do with the brain. Although, it's very unlikely. :)

[ren5311]

"you cannot explain consciousness in a reductionist fashion, since consciousness cannot properly be explained at all."

That makes no sense. It is true that consciousness has yet to be fully elucidated, but this does not mean reductionist investigation has failed. Take a look at recent results from fMRI and fMRSI for our most promising leads.

"We have no circumstantial... perhaps the cells themselves."

Neurons = cells of the brain = tissue of the brain (with glia). What's your point again?

[drummermonkey]

A theory of everything also remains to be seen. But I'll bite, show me a reduction of emotion....hehehe have fun my friend.

[CathySander]

...and any suc theories of everything is a theory of nothing, in fact...since it can be used as an 'explanation' of any event in the world. Hence, it becomes useless in any particular way.

[perceival]

QUALIA are a property that can't be approached in a reductionist manner.

[ren5311]

"QUALIA are a property that can't be approached in a reductionist manner."

Read "Consciousness Explained" by Dennet. And, even given your possible ignorance of Dennet's argument, qualia could be approached in a reductive manner, by examining individual, personal qualitative assessments and trying to craft a global theory from those analyses.

Nice try.

[LordImmolation]

Yes, but Dennett's multiple draft model is heavily influenced by what would be considered "emergent" phenomena. It is based heavily on Minsky's society of mind, and is hugely emergent. Functionalism implies emergent ism, for it is not the workings on an individual neuron itself that "gives rise" to consciousness. But rather consciousness is achieved through the interaction of these smaller components, which must always be considered in the context in which they operate.

[ren5311]

LordImm: Dennett (and I) employ a form of weak emergence, where the so-called emergent phenomena is reducible to component parts and the concept of emergence is only used as a sort of shorthand to discuss complex behavior. I am demanding an example of strong emergence, where the phenomena is not reducible to component parts.

And I am not advocating functionalism.

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify.

[ren5311]

Yikes, change 'phenomena' to 'phenomenon' in the above...

[SisyphusRedeemed]

"Name one emergent property."

I'll name three: solidity, liquidity and gaseousness. No single molecule of water is 'liquid' nor is it 'solid,' nor 'gaseous.' Liquid, solid and gas only emerge when you get a collection of molecules together. If you look at only one molecule you'll never be able to predict what phase it's in. But at the same time, the liquid, solid or gaseous water is nothing more than a collection of those molecules. Hence, these properties are emergent. QED.

[Neeboopsh]

"particle man. when he's under water, does he get wet? or does the water get him instead?"

wetness is another property of water that doesnt apply at the molecular level. water is super emergent :)

[DrDeist]

@SisyphusRedeemed : Challenge: "Name one emergent property."

Response: "..solidity, liquidity, gaseousness.." -

Outstanding, SD - you put that one away for good.

[InfoJunkieHolland]

the beauty of life is only surpassed by it's own ingenuity. truly, i have done a fine job creating it.

[cosmicpilgrim]

One of the most beautiful coherent vids I've seen on Youtube. I think the true answer is panpsychism with an emergent element...But this is very close to the what actually happens. Thanks!

[cdk007]

Look how many decades it took the public to accept that they are just an emergent property of atoms arranged in a complex pattern. And some still don't. How many more will it be before they accept their thoughts as an emergent property of neurons? That life is an emergent property of the universe.  Sadly, many more than our lifetimes. Great video.

[BonoboBill]

Agreed. Once another Einstein comes along and revolutionizes complexity theory, emergence will find its proper place in the sciences.

[InfoJunkieHolland]

Could you tell me what the track is called Bill?

[BonoboBill]

Bonobo - Nothing Owed :)

P.S. Hard at work on the chromosome 2 vid. Will be up shortly.

[InfoJunkieHolland]

Aaah, I'm a sleep in a bit, but I'll watch it 1st thing on the Sunday afternoon. Promise.

Stay frosty.

[phoenixshade3]

Any video that features Kanzi in the opening gets 5* from me...

Looking forward to your chromosomal fusion video.

[BonoboBill]

Heh. I love those damn chimps. I actually went to the Sand Diego zoo with my nephews last weekend. Saw a bunch of bonobos.

And yes, the video will be up in several hours. No later than this evening. Thanks for hangin around. ;)

[phoenixshade3]

Unfortunately, we don't have any bonobos at nearby zoos (Washington DC). I did see them once on a visit to the Columbus zoo, however. And I hope to visit the Great Ape Trust in Iowa someday, where Savage-Rumbaugh currently works with the bonobos.