Imputed vs Infused Righteousness by R.C. Sproul - Part 2 of 2

[nannykim1]

Small technicality --RC says the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified. (session 6 chapter 7)

[polopowers1]

Excuse mis spelling .Mary's womb was over shadowed by the Holy Spirit her egg and no sperm was used to form Christ body The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also that holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God Lk 1: 35. Your wondering about the generation line Christ was of the lineage of David through Joseph but Joseph had no participation , Right? So for Mary it is about lineage but not blood. Death is in the blood.

[blessedwithoutmeasur]

roman 5 17 through the end He did it for us it was a exchange

[polopowers1]

That cannot be possible Christ had blood frrom man because in the blood is where death is inherited in "death passed upon all men because all have sinned " It is amazing to note how many believers do not know this. Christ had no blood from Mary or Adam though He was in the ancestorial line Chrst was blood without blemish without spot. It is not the death of Christ that saves but the blood makes atonement and He did not become precious blood by obedience. Christ blood was the perfect Lamb.

[Canlander7]

@polopowers1 How do we have an "ancestorial (I think you mean 'ancestral') line" without blood? Where do you get this from? Please provide scripture. What denomination are you btw?

[polopowers1]

@Canlander7 .Romans 5:12 just as through one man sin entered the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned. How does death spread but by consummation of sinners. What Adam gave was death in flesh as the result of sin,That is the nature of sin powerless flesh incapable not to sin. I did not inherit Adam's specific sin but results death by blood inherited.Did Mary give Christ blood line of death by sin inherited by consummation of sinners. No.

[Canlander7]

@polopowers1 I see your point. It makes sense. Could you share with me any resources that helped you with this issue?

[polopowers1]

@Canlander7 The only resources I have is experience of thirty years of evangelism. Mostly at a major university where questions can get very challenging.Muslims inquire about the virgin birth, how can God die, original sin etc Mormons have similiar questions and don't believe in Christ as being One with Father and Spirit etc. So I must study the Word deeply for hours for any time at the university.How would you answer a Muslim who says God cannot die.?.etc.When what we know must be explained...

[Canlander7]

@polopowers1 That is truly honourable to God. Thank you for your hard work in evangelism and study of scripture. I too believe in analyzing the scripture fervently for the answer. I had a conversation with a Muslim in Scotland while I travelled. He evangelized to me gave me some books for studying Islam. One book he gave was something along the lines of "Let the Bible Do the Talking". I don't have it with me now. I wonder if it's worth checking out to see what they are taught about the Bible?

[polopowers1]

@Canlander7 Please see RC 'S video on the precious blood of Christ hesays Christ blood became precious by obeying the law. This is along the line of John Macarthur's doctrine that Christ's death is the sufficiency not distinct flesh and blood in death. Christ born with distinct flesh and blood is essential for Atonement, not a slight error. Christ was a Man like any man but not like any other man in everyway, no contradiction.He fulfilled the model of man and excelled Adam in flesh before fall

[Canlander7]

@polopowers1 I might have missed that video. But that brings up a question for me: Was Adam created with perfect, untainted flesh? He was by all means the first man and after God had created Adam he said that said that it was "good". And theoretically after the fall mankind's blood has been tainted by Adam's sin.

Anyways, I see your point. It's plausible to have Jesus both perfect in blood and in deeds--in that way he excels the first man.

Cheers

[polopowers1]

@polopowers1 Thank you for your extreme honesty and open spirit it is truly unique to communicate with a person like yourself. It is to your honor to say the things you did.I agree with you about Adam's body sin might have brought out what was already innate. Thank you again.

[Canlander7]

@polopowers1 God Bless You

[polopowers1]

Where is the perfect flesh in scribture.? Christ was made exclusively by the Holy Spirit in Mary's womb. He had no blood connection to Adam in the flesh or He would be born with a sinful nature. Could Adam die for sin absent from the breaking of law not having yet sinned.? Could his body and blood atone.? No, because made of the flesh of dust he was not perfect distinct sacrifice. Please read Romans 6 the law must attack the sinful flesh for power showing man powerless by flesh to sin.

[Canlander7]

@polopowers1 No blood connection? Wasn't Mary a descendant of Adam like the rest of us? Look. I'm not saying Jesus wasn't naturally born to obey the law because is can't. It's impossible for him to break the law. The Law is a reflection of the character of God. And that was evident in Jesus' life. So he of course was God in keeping all the laws because it was his nature.

My argument was the language you're using. He was born from a sinful woman like the rest of us, but he himself was not carnal.

[polopowers1]

@Canlander7 Mary carried sinful death nature in blood The Holy Spirit overwhelmed her womb she was not the egg host and no man gave sperm. Mary was a sinner born to die by blood the life is in the blood. Christ atonement is in the blood and flesh of His body not His lifestyle making Him a perfect Man. Christ was man like any other man but not like any man in every way no contradiction. He fulfilled the model of man but excelled it He came in the like ness of man but distinct in flesh and blood.

[polopowers1]

@polopowers1 Please see polopowers1 The Virgin Birth Video thanks Dan

[polopowers1]

I'm sorry but R.C said and I believe you concur that Christ's righteousness camefrom obeying the law. R.C says in another place the precious blood became precious by obedience to law. The law needs sinful flesh to tempt or it has no power Romans 6 Christ condemned sin in the flesh being snctifeid flesh and blood. R.C does not mean what you say he is saying Christ became the perfect righteous blood by obeying law, this is impossible.

[Canlander7]

@polopowers1 Well if "Christ became the perfect righteous blood by obeying the law" it is true. He kept every law. Being both fully man and fully God he could be tempted as a man but obey the law perfectly as God.

True, man is powerless against sin. And Christ showed the Lord's power against it. I'm not disagreeing with you. He never sinned. But about his physical body; it was born by blood from Abraham and Adam. Mary like everyone else has the same blood. Blood that was needed for atonement.

[Canlander7]

@polopowers1 I just have to make a point clear. I was not arguing at a Christadelphian view of the atonement. [That is; Jesus was born a sinful man.] I think that's where we got mixed up.

I agree he was the perfect man and didn't sin. I just don't understand your point on his body being different from ours besides the fact that he could resist any temptation to the flesh. Anyways, I'll leave this issue for now and admit I just can't comprehend how it all works.

[polopowers1]

@Canlander7 Christ is of the lineage of David by Joseph,how can that be if he had no consummation.? It was all about lineage and not blood. If Mary helped form Christ genetic blood He would be born from results of sin, which is death All consummation following Adam and Eve results in death Why? Rom5:12 death spread to all men because all sinned. Now Mary is a sinner any consummation with her results in death by sinful results. But Christ did not die by sinful results.

[polopowers1]

The law is not God by Nature. God is perpetual Virtue the law is not. God went to the extreme to send His Son to prove He was not moral by Nature. The law was never intentended to define God's Nature; His Holy Character. Geisler is dead wrong Christ is not the fulfillment of law by Nature. Christ fulfilled the law being born, the only flesh the law could not touch to sin.If Christ is moral in body He could sin, impossible

[Canlander7]

@polopowers1 By living a whole life without sin Christ fulfilled the requirement of the law.

Rom 8:3-4 "For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who WALK not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit"

Rom 10:4 "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes"

[polopowers1]

@Canlander7 Christ who could never sin because law could not touch His flesh or draw His flesh out to sin had to first obey the law to fulfill the righteous requirements of the law. ? The verse you wrote was perfect read carefullyt He condemned sin in the flesh, coming in the likeness of sinful flesh the law could draw on for Christ flesh to sin. He did not condemn sin in obedience to law ( what laws? ) He condemned sin in flesh being made perfect flesh Christ is righteousness not by obeying

[Canlander7]

@polopowers1 Now you're just filling in my words. I put the verse because it was perfect. Where is this perfect flesh in scripture? Anyways, I think you're getting the same point I'm making. I'm not making the same point from RC. I posted this video for people to discuss, not because I fully agree with him. But I think RC was making his point clear. I don't think he meant that Christ earned righteousness. He was made perfect.

[Canlander7]

@polopowers1 I highlighted WALK because Jesus walked according to the Spirit; perfect. He also had been tempted by every sin known to man. So he obviously felt the drawing of sin. I think this is what RC meant. Every sin that came to him, he condemned it. For example, when Satan tempted him to turn the stones to bread, Jesus gave us the righteous answer to the temptation. He knows what temptation is; he lived in the likeness of sinful flesh, but lived righteously and perfect by the Spirit.

[polopowers1]

That is heresy Christ never earned His righteousness by keeping perfection of law. He proved law as powerless agaanist Him the law having no effect over Him to be broken. I cannot believe God's people believe this introduction of Christ's Life. RC is saying Christ is not a perfect sacrifice until He became one. I don't care of his popular fame he is dead wrong. Christ earned nothing "keeping Law " He proved the law had no power over Him to define His Holy Character.God is not law by Nature.

[Canlander7]

@polopowers1 Re: "God is not law by Nature."

Norman Geisler puts it this way: "The existence of a moral law in the mind of a moral Lawgiver shows us that God is a moral Being. . . .He is by nature moral."

"Our contention is that the moral law is rooted in God’s good and loving nature. This is not an ultimate beyond God, but within Him. And it is impossible for God to will something that is not in accordance with His nature."

[polopowers1]

@Canlander7 The contention is not  Christ made us righteous the contention is whether Christ is righteous by creation or by law following. Christ excelled moral law because the moral law attacks those in the flesh. Christ had distinct flesh and blood moral law had no power over. If Christ became moral or proved moral by law, or obedience to law your saying He progressed in righteousness of nature, impossible. Christ came fulfilling the law; born the perfect Man.

[Canlander7]

@polopowers1 So we can both agree 'Christ came fulfilling the law; born the perfect Man.' The second Adam.

[Canlander7]

@polopowers1 I think you missed RC's point. He isn't denying that Jesus was born perfect. He was making the point that WE cannot earn our way to heaven. Jesus fulfilled the requirement, he earned it on our behalf. Try not take it out of context. If you read his books you'll know where he stands on justification and the Christ.

[DrStevenz]

RC Sproul is fun to listen to. Thumbs up..