One small correction, if I may: you claim that the Justicars are accepted by the Asari and other races despite their occasionally barbaric methods, but this isn't the case--Justicars are widely feared for their incredible power and brutal actions. Also, the Asari are a culturally sophisticated species, but as a variety of sources imply (Codex, NPCs, etc.), they hold unflinchingly to tradition. Justicars, regardless of how wrongfully powerful they may seem, remain a part of that tradition.
It's incredibly hard to believe the de facto advanced species who live a 1000 years accept an antiquated above-the-law code who's punishment is always death, orchestrated by monastic SS super-cops, to supersede local or independent-developed law. This "socially advanced species" simply wouldn't keep a kill-all-criminal rule; there would at least be moderates, liberals and orthodox amongst them, an ongoing debate, or a series of enforced laws for such groups.
@smudboy I assumed that Justicars, Samara and the Asari were social commentary on how age fosters rigidity and lack of adaptability to society and change. The older humans get the more stagnate ideas become and the less able we are to even consider change; why couldn't a race of aliens who routinely live to be 1000 be similar?
Old to them could mean many things. The Asari are the most culturally advanced; yet despite this, they have a draconian view of justice. We can look to our Code of Hammurabi, and even it has an "innocent until proven guilty" concept.
Justicars? You cross me (judge, jury, executioner), you die.
So having a bunch of death dealers running around for thousands of years is just fine, because they're aliens.
I'm not saying they can't: they just need to clarify wtf is justice, and when Justicars have to be involved. Like, giving an example where carte blanche was ever needed.
I love Samara. While the whole justicar thing and recruitment wasn't well explained, her conversations were some of my favorites. Like how saving innocent lives comes before killing the unjust. I also really love how she says "She fought until the very end. I'm so proud of her, Shepard". Something about that line just gets me...
I don't think the whole "Shepard shows her that the Code isn't always the best answer" ever happens in the game... She stays true to it and she stays a Justicar, shooting down every attempt at criticizing it.
Also, your complaints about "common sense" and "society" are obviously through the prism of "Western democratic human common sense". Sure the recruitment sucks, but complaining "that doesn't make sense in the modern society" falls flat when talking about an (albeit humanoid) alien.
...and in the end you still stick to your methods. If it wasn't for our intervention, Samara would have torn through the Eclipse base and found out the name anyway - only a day later, after having slaughtered the policewomen. A risk, but Morinth found prime feeding grounds on Omega - unlikely that she would move one day after. We go there and execute Samara's plan. Shepard's intervention made things smoother, but she'd do fine on her own.
Shepard found the info on a datapad, in a place Samara was bound to go before she was apprehended. Are you saying she can't read? It wasn't exactly detective work on Shepard's part - he went in, shoot everyone and read a datapad. Exactly Samara's plan. The plan for catching Morinth was hers as well. I think you're overestimating Shepard's part in it. The importance of Shepard's was on the social, not "tactical" plane.
Speculation. Maybe it would, maybe not. Maybe she would die, maybe not. Maybe one of the mercs or the merc leader would try to bargain it for her life, maybe not. It's pointless. Facts are as follow: Shepard followed Samara's plan and her m.o. from the moment of leaving the police station. He was useful but not indispensable. Samara "learns" nothing and her methods stay the same throughout the entire game.
No, for 400 years, Samara was hindered by the code in capturing Morinth. In comes Shepard, who does everything she can't, because he doesn't have her code.
Samara is well aware her success over killing Morinth is because of Shepard. She even says so.
In makes one wonder: why she even became a justicar, and why she continued to do so.
I think it's been shown pretty thoroughly throughout ME1 and 2 that the Asari, in general, are not really all that much more ethically advanced than anyone else. You meet huge numbers of asari mercenaries and criminals.
@dark7element That's only actually in 2. In ME1, all Asari were pretty much either
-Pretty much angelical, good, wise creatures
-Scientists who do what they think is right and good
-Strippers
-A jerk on the Council who only does what she thinks is right and good
It was only in ME2 when they turned more morally ambiguous. I remember, my first time through, being shocked each time I found a "normal" Asari, like the police... erm... policealien in Samara's recruitment, or the bartender on Ilos.
@masterplusmargarita Nassana Dantius first appeared in ME1. I also believe that asari enemies appear occasionally (though the enemies aren't nearly as racially diverse as in ME2).
Hmmm, I'm pretty sure Samara said there was a governing body for the Justicars and there was some rule that said they couldn't overthrow the current government.
The reason she can't get a ship name herself is because Morinth is so terryfying. She bewitches people into obeying her, once to the point where she got an entire village of Asari to worship her. The Eclipse merc Samara kills in her debut cutscene refuses to reveal the ship name on the basis that Morinth would do somewhat worse than killing her. It's not too hard to assume that the other people Morinth worked with over the years felt the same way. And no, Asari arn't telepathic.
@smudboy I think the participant has to be willing for that, though. Liara and...um, what's-her-face, the Thorian asari from the first game, always told Shepard to relax before melding with them. The ability to force people to do what you want seems to just be an Ardat-Yakshi thing. So if the participant isn't willing, Samara couldn't get the info she wanted. Or maybe she just likens it to rape and refuses to stoop to it.
It's a passive experience for the host. Samara is one of the strongest biotics in the galaxy. Regardless of using her Asari mind-meld trick, she can always just beat it out of the merc.
@smudboy She literally tossed the merc all around the room and got nothing. Samara goes over this in one of her conversation-Morinth can brainwash people into doing what she wants. Plus, beating someone for answers still won't work if the person receiving the beatings keeps reminding themselves, "This is nothng compared to what I'll get from Morinth if I talk!"
The long life also allows for a drastically different society. Imagine if every religious figure of the catholic church were still alive today, together, what would society be like for us now? If we had someone who claimed to have seen jesus's miracles first hand...would there be less athiests in the world? Would we still have people fighting for beliefs because there's an entire generation of living people that can vouch for the religion being real? We'd still have Crusaders fighting Muslims
But you can't convince a Justicar to work for you, because you'd be going against her code of attempting to...it's like enslaving them and you can't do that. She followed Shepard because of a faulting emotional reaction in wanting to kill her daughter. The code is like...a religious melding onto their minds. It's not like knights as much because there's a ritual that they must go through to attain this "title". Justicars act on asari beliefs, even though ME2 doesn't really detail what that is
at point 7 you say that its unlogical that she just kills everyone in their way... i think she is in the position that she knews who "deserves" (i know a critical point) to be dead or not..
the volus says that every eclipse-merc have to kill one person to earn their suits.when thats not enough reason for S. to kill this merc...
but the other points are true.. especially the acceptance of such an order in an ethical high developed asari-culture. A "bit" unlogical!
One small correction, if I may: you claim that the Justicars are accepted by the Asari and other races despite their occasionally barbaric methods, but this isn't the case--Justicars are widely feared for their incredible power and brutal actions. Also, the Asari are a culturally sophisticated species, but as a variety of sources imply (Codex, NPCs, etc.), they hold unflinchingly to tradition. Justicars, regardless of how wrongfully powerful they may seem, remain a part of that tradition.
TheOpieduke 1 month ago
@TheOpieduke
It's incredibly hard to believe the de facto advanced species who live a 1000 years accept an antiquated above-the-law code who's punishment is always death, orchestrated by monastic SS super-cops, to supersede local or independent-developed law. This "socially advanced species" simply wouldn't keep a kill-all-criminal rule; there would at least be moderates, liberals and orthodox amongst them, an ongoing debate, or a series of enforced laws for such groups.
smudboy 1 month ago
@smudboy I assumed that Justicars, Samara and the Asari were social commentary on how age fosters rigidity and lack of adaptability to society and change. The older humans get the more stagnate ideas become and the less able we are to even consider change; why couldn't a race of aliens who routinely live to be 1000 be similar?
MrPardoMe 1 week ago
@MrPardoMe
Old to them could mean many things. The Asari are the most culturally advanced; yet despite this, they have a draconian view of justice. We can look to our Code of Hammurabi, and even it has an "innocent until proven guilty" concept.
Justicars? You cross me (judge, jury, executioner), you die.
smudboy 1 week ago
@smudboy But they are alien. There is no reason to think that what we consider an advanced system of justice would fall in line with their view.
MrPardoMe 1 week ago
@MrPardoMe
So having a bunch of death dealers running around for thousands of years is just fine, because they're aliens.
I'm not saying they can't: they just need to clarify wtf is justice, and when Justicars have to be involved. Like, giving an example where carte blanche was ever needed.
smudboy 1 week ago
Underrated character IMO. Sucks that we're not getting her as a squaddie in ME3
sheemobile 4 months ago
A 1000 year old MILF? Totally my thing!
SelfmadePrison 6 months ago 10
I love Samara. While the whole justicar thing and recruitment wasn't well explained, her conversations were some of my favorites. Like how saving innocent lives comes before killing the unjust. I also really love how she says "She fought until the very end. I'm so proud of her, Shepard". Something about that line just gets me...
S1deshowRobP5 7 months ago 3
I don't think the whole "Shepard shows her that the Code isn't always the best answer" ever happens in the game... She stays true to it and she stays a Justicar, shooting down every attempt at criticizing it.
Also, your complaints about "common sense" and "society" are obviously through the prism of "Western democratic human common sense". Sure the recruitment sucks, but complaining "that doesn't make sense in the modern society" falls flat when talking about an (albeit humanoid) alien.
a0classcriminal 7 months ago
@a0classcriminal
If you fail at something for 400 years, then succeed by doing it differently...
smudboy 7 months ago
@smudboy
...and in the end you still stick to your methods. If it wasn't for our intervention, Samara would have torn through the Eclipse base and found out the name anyway - only a day later, after having slaughtered the policewomen. A risk, but Morinth found prime feeding grounds on Omega - unlikely that she would move one day after. We go there and execute Samara's plan. Shepard's intervention made things smoother, but she'd do fine on her own.
a0classcriminal 7 months ago
@a0classcriminal
...and failed catching Morinth, again.
smudboy 7 months ago
@smudboy
Shepard found the info on a datapad, in a place Samara was bound to go before she was apprehended. Are you saying she can't read? It wasn't exactly detective work on Shepard's part - he went in, shoot everyone and read a datapad. Exactly Samara's plan. The plan for catching Morinth was hers as well. I think you're overestimating Shepard's part in it. The importance of Shepard's was on the social, not "tactical" plane.
a0classcriminal 7 months ago
@a0classcriminal
A datapad which would've been gone by the time Samara got to it, if she didn't end up getting herself killed.
"Catching" Morinth may have been Samara's plan, but she certainly wasn't part of it.
smudboy 7 months ago
@smudboy
Speculation. Maybe it would, maybe not. Maybe she would die, maybe not. Maybe one of the mercs or the merc leader would try to bargain it for her life, maybe not. It's pointless. Facts are as follow: Shepard followed Samara's plan and her m.o. from the moment of leaving the police station. He was useful but not indispensable. Samara "learns" nothing and her methods stay the same throughout the entire game.
a0classcriminal 7 months ago
@a0classcriminal
No, for 400 years, Samara was hindered by the code in capturing Morinth. In comes Shepard, who does everything she can't, because he doesn't have her code.
Samara is well aware her success over killing Morinth is because of Shepard. She even says so.
In makes one wonder: why she even became a justicar, and why she continued to do so.
smudboy 7 months ago
@dark7element Sorry. I meant Illium, not Ilos.
masterplusmargarita 8 months ago
I think it's been shown pretty thoroughly throughout ME1 and 2 that the Asari, in general, are not really all that much more ethically advanced than anyone else. You meet huge numbers of asari mercenaries and criminals.
dark7element 9 months ago
@dark7element That's only actually in 2. In ME1, all Asari were pretty much either
-Pretty much angelical, good, wise creatures
-Scientists who do what they think is right and good
-Strippers
-A jerk on the Council who only does what she thinks is right and good
It was only in ME2 when they turned more morally ambiguous. I remember, my first time through, being shocked each time I found a "normal" Asari, like the police... erm... policealien in Samara's recruitment, or the bartender on Ilos.
masterplusmargarita 8 months ago
@masterplusmargarita Nassana Dantius first appeared in ME1. I also believe that asari enemies appear occasionally (though the enemies aren't nearly as racially diverse as in ME2).
dark7element 8 months ago
I'm guessing smud wanted to tap dat ass
Commonwealth96 10 months ago 2
Justicars only stay within Asari space
rmeddy1 1 year ago
@rmeddy1
Obviously not.
smudboy 1 year ago 4
@smudboy Well the reason I raised this because the only reason Samara leaves Asari is to chase Morinth.
Are there any mention of other Justicars leaving Asari space?
rmeddy1 1 year ago
@rmeddy1
Do Justicars only stay within Asari space?
Answer: no.
smudboy 1 year ago
Comment removed
ItsSomeDeadGuy 1 year ago
MILF okay thats out of my system
Insomniac22100 1 year ago
Hmmm, I'm pretty sure Samara said there was a governing body for the Justicars and there was some rule that said they couldn't overthrow the current government.
MCSCORMAG 1 year ago
The reason she can't get a ship name herself is because Morinth is so terryfying. She bewitches people into obeying her, once to the point where she got an entire village of Asari to worship her. The Eclipse merc Samara kills in her debut cutscene refuses to reveal the ship name on the basis that Morinth would do somewhat worse than killing her. It's not too hard to assume that the other people Morinth worked with over the years felt the same way. And no, Asari arn't telepathic.
DoctorPorkenfries 1 year ago
@DoctorPorkenfries
They meld with others and can transfer thoughts, without reproduction. Sounds Vulcanish. Sounds like telepathy to me.
smudboy 1 year ago
@smudboy I think the participant has to be willing for that, though. Liara and...um, what's-her-face, the Thorian asari from the first game, always told Shepard to relax before melding with them. The ability to force people to do what you want seems to just be an Ardat-Yakshi thing. So if the participant isn't willing, Samara couldn't get the info she wanted. Or maybe she just likens it to rape and refuses to stoop to it.
DoctorPorkenfries 1 year ago
@DoctorPorkenfries
It's a passive experience for the host. Samara is one of the strongest biotics in the galaxy. Regardless of using her Asari mind-meld trick, she can always just beat it out of the merc.
smudboy 1 year ago
@smudboy She literally tossed the merc all around the room and got nothing. Samara goes over this in one of her conversation-Morinth can brainwash people into doing what she wants. Plus, beating someone for answers still won't work if the person receiving the beatings keeps reminding themselves, "This is nothng compared to what I'll get from Morinth if I talk!"
DoctorPorkenfries 1 year ago
@DoctorPorkenfries
I don't care how seductive Morinth is. Shepard would destroy her.
Pain is the greatest motivator.
smudboy 1 year ago
Samara is wonderful charecter. I'd love to see a whole game of her rich past. There's so much to tell and see about her.
sorwis 1 year ago
The long life also allows for a drastically different society. Imagine if every religious figure of the catholic church were still alive today, together, what would society be like for us now? If we had someone who claimed to have seen jesus's miracles first hand...would there be less athiests in the world? Would we still have people fighting for beliefs because there's an entire generation of living people that can vouch for the religion being real? We'd still have Crusaders fighting Muslims
Jackelbeaver 1 year ago
But you can't convince a Justicar to work for you, because you'd be going against her code of attempting to...it's like enslaving them and you can't do that. She followed Shepard because of a faulting emotional reaction in wanting to kill her daughter. The code is like...a religious melding onto their minds. It's not like knights as much because there's a ritual that they must go through to attain this "title". Justicars act on asari beliefs, even though ME2 doesn't really detail what that is
Jackelbeaver 1 year ago
at point 7 you say that its unlogical that she just kills everyone in their way... i think she is in the position that she knews who "deserves" (i know a critical point) to be dead or not..
the volus says that every eclipse-merc have to kill one person to earn their suits.when thats not enough reason for S. to kill this merc...
but the other points are true.. especially the acceptance of such an order in an ethical high developed asari-culture. A "bit" unlogical!
(Sry for no perfect englisch)
Pobbii 1 year ago
LMAO... "Then a human comes in and in a matter of days, solves her quest".
When you put it that way, it seems she's really really bad at her quest as she spent some 400 years not getting it done.
sth128 1 year ago 2
Actually she wasn't in a cell because if she was put under any form of restriction her code would compel her to break out and kill everyone.
titch2000 1 year ago