Good video, though I'd say that insofar as being a Christian can be defined as having a belief in the Abrahamic god and in Jesus of Nazareth as Christ the Redeemer, Hitler can rightly be called a Christian. He also believed the story of Genesis to be literal truth, though he believed that only Aryans were descended from Adam and Eve and that the other races had descended from apes, though evolution.
@lewicron Yeah, maybe, but I won't be arguing the toss over that. As long as it's abudantly clear that he wasn't an Atheist. Whatever else he was or wasn't is of no concern to me.
@rozeboosje Fair enough, the confusion over Hitler's attitude to religion stems from more than just his obvious distrust of *organized* religion, but also from dubious accounts of conversations with him wherein it's claimed he renounced Christianity in general. What gets me about theists who claim he only *pretended* to be religious is that they never examine *why* he felt pretending to be religious would be necessary in order to win political power and a mandate to murder Jews.
@rozeboosje Absolutely. Not only he wasn't an atheist but he hated atheists, plain and simple. I'm even surprised that he did not send atheists to death camps, along with jews, gypsies, homsexuals, handicapped, communists..., In fact he basically considered atheists to be communists, so that would explain the phenomenon in both ways.
@TeesByTruthSurge Yes, that's possible, but there are also plenty of 5 year olds who don't appear terribly affected by this "brainwashing". It depends a lot on how fanatical it is. I myself was brought up - at least nominally - as a Roman Catholic, but I've never felt "brainwashed" or in any way intimidated by the belief system. It has always sounded like a whole load of codswallop to me :-)
@TruthSurge Yes. Whether Hitler believed there was a god or not is irrelevant, as far as I'm concerned. That he believed that he was going "god's will" as he planned to exterminate the Jews is of course a different matter.
@TruthSurge Obviously not. But he also couldn't have believed he was doing god's will if his frontal lobes had been severed, if he had been killed in World War One, or if he had been a gorilla. Conversely he could have been just as evil had he thought that he had to put in place an atheistic communist utopia and anybody standing in the way of that lofty goal was obstructing humanity's destiny and should be exterminated. And what if he had been a quaker?
@rozeboosje I think somewhere deep inside, we both know that Christian beliefs and Muslim beliefs have OFTEN led to atrocities whereas atheist beliefs don't seem to do that. So why is it that we shy away from drawing any connections? Just asking.
@TruthSurge I think somewhere deep inside we both know that there are religious people who DO turn murderous and religious people who DON'T and that the same is true for people who are atheists. So why is it that we focus exclusively on ONE aspect of a personality and pretend that everything that is wrong with that person is caused by that and that alone? Just asking.
@rozeboosje So, you think as many atheists have done immoral things as the religious? Even Paul admitted that the law the Jews followed actually made them sin more. Every other week, a pastor is in the news for child molestation (or so it seems). Abortion clinics bombed and abortion doctors murdered by.... atheists? naw. The deal is that most Christians DON'T really believe and therefore they really AREN'T true Christians. Else they'd obey James and pray for healing instead of a Dr. visit.
@TruthSurge Er.... I don't think it's my place to decide what makes a "true christian" nor am I interested, and I certainly am not going to insist that a Christian must take everything that's written in the bible literally. What they do or don't take literally is their business, and their circle to square. Not my problem.
@rozeboosje Not mine either. I just believe there is a fundamental difference between the mind of one under the influence of religion (the desert 3 but less so for Jews I'd say). We KNOW many bad things happened because of someone's religious beliefs but in this day and age, since it happens so rarely and in a clearcut way, no one really considers if there is a connection because 99.9% of Islam and Christianity NOW are not blowing up buildings.
@TruthSurge My point is that religion doesn't just pop into existence out of nowhere. It was originally concocted in the human mind. So even if you insist on pointing at religion as a "cause" for (for example) violence, you should still dig deeper and consider what causes these types of religion to be created. The answer lies in human nature, NOT in "islam" or "christianity".
I agree, it is an ideology and not exclusively atheism itself that can lash out in violent matters. Totalitarian control must remove religion from power to have complete influence over the people. Unless, having religious support will gain more followers, which some dictators and militant terrorists have done.
@TheMrDeist "not exclusively atheism". I would even say that atheism simply doesn't enter the picture. Not believing in gods cannot make you violent. The notion is preposterous. You're right about how some totalitarian regimes embraced a "state religion" in order to subvert it into becoming part of the apparatus.
That the apparnt bibliical heros, that slaughtered several people IN THE BIBLE, may have simply been HITLERS.
However, they claimed to be god followers to the point of effecting scripture, as todays leaders, may claim to talk to god, but not to the point of being biblical.
Also, in the video you mentioned someones speech, which speech was it?
bullseye mate. totalitarianism is, to use modern parlance, a Sith philosophy. authority wants to command all the fundamental aspects of society, and clergy have, for centuries, exercised authority (to varying degrees) in direct competition with governments.
this is why the most dangerous politicians are the ones who claim to be in communion with God, as they hope to straddle both tigers and ride them.
Arguing about whether Hitler was a theist or not is pointless, since the driving force behind his hateful ideology wasn't religion or irreligion; it was Nazism, which was secular in essence, but often couched in religious language. As his prevailing philosophy, he often found Christianity obstructing it, and when it did, he got angry at it, and when it supported his views, suddenly he was all for it.
The charge of Nazism can't simply be laid at either the theist's or the atheist's door.
The driving force behind Nazism was a preceived need to preserve volkishness, i.e. the spirit of the German folk. This is a spiritual and mystic concept, not secular. Nazis promoted a variety of Christianity called Positive Christianity which blended traditional Protestantism with New Agy ideas and neopaganism. Hitler claimed to be an insturment of Providence, hence could not tolerate other religious leaders in special relationships with God.
@pirbird14 Yes, a perceived need to preserve volkishness is classic tribalism: the notion that the presence of "outsiders" in a population constitutes a contamination of the local territory. Whether they promoted Positive Christianity or not is beside the point: you don't need to appeal to mysticism to get a population to buy into the kind of tribalism that was at the core of Nazism - simply primate xenophobia will do.
Tribalism as found in tribal cultures is a mystic concept: it venerates the supposed "spirit of the tribe". Volkishness was a spiritual concept, expressed in the form of "blut und boden", "blood and soil". Supposedly, the blood carries the true spirit of a people in some undefined and mystic fashion. The soil of Germany supposedly imparted volkishness to the Germanic peoples. The irrationality of the concept is what makes it dangerous. See Wikipedia.
@UppruniTegundanna Agreed, though I agree with pirpird14's comments about volkishness. You, too, are right: you don't need to appeal to mysticism. But the Nazis did it all the same.
@rozeboosje Well, I think we're both right. But I think that if we want to be honest, it should be acknowledged that Nazism ranked higher in the hierarchy of what was important to Hitler than Christianity, and that there were atheists who were seduced by it as well, such as Baldur von Shirach. We don't automatically escape hideous bigotry simply by abandoning faith. All humans are vulnerable to succumbing to it, and understanding that is the first step towards rising above that kind of crap.
The more I have been thinking about it recently, the less I find myself laying crimes such as the Holocaust, or even the Inquisition, at the feet of the religious. I find that these atrocities become far easier to understand if we accept that it is basic human nature - the tendency to want to eradicate anything that deviates from "X" philosophy - that causes this, and that that is the basic thing we should be aware of, whether it expresses itself in religious or secular terms.
@UppruniTegundanna I think that is part of the point I'm making in this video. Hitler *did* believe in a god, but whether he did or not is not relevant.
@CommandoDude Dude, "Godwin" only applies when you try and compare your opponent to a Nazi. Just talking about Hitler and Nazis has nothing to do with "Godwin's law".
Religion was to be replaced by the state. Frankly, take out some of the anti-semitism (just some) and Hitler could be as popular today in most countries, as he was in Germany. If we look at some of the virtues that the Nazi's espoused, we'd instantly recognize many of them as virtues that are held up today.
In spite of that, Htler depised christianity and monotheism in general because it had, accorded to him, infected the german culture.
His hatred of the jewish raised because jews are the root of christianity.
He used christianity's anti-semitism to take jews as scapegoats wthin the socio-economic context but his aim was to eradicate christianity and get back to ancient germanic paganism, not for religious but for cultural reasons.
@Knr911 There is no evidence Hitler ever wanted to go back to "ancient germanic paganism" or even "eradicate christianity". Liek roseboosje said, he wanted to eliminate the power of the organized churches and use their influence for his own propaganda. There were poeple around SS-Leader Himmler who fantasized vaguelly about a "germanic" religion, but these people were a small occult-like group. As far as I know (paranoid) Hitler was always sceptical about this fringe group in the NS ideology.
@garm13 I never said Rozeboosje's point is invalid, yes like many dictators Hitler ultimately considered organized religion as a threat to his totalitarian project. But yes, I'm sorry, it is a historical fact that Hitler depised jews because (among other things!) they're the root of christianity, ie. some latin influence which corrupted the ancient germanic culture. As I said, he himself did not hold a particular religious value to germanic paganism, it was all about "restoring germanic empire".
@Knr911 I see no evidence for that whatsoever in Mein Kampf, for example. What I DO see is bizarre mind farts about how the Jews rejected the Saviour. Doesn't sound like "Paganism" to me, I'm afraid.
@rozeboosje OK. I) "And so I believe to-day that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator. In standing guard against the Jew I am defending the handiwork of the Lord." - Mein Kampf
"I say: my feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Saviour as a fighter. It points me to the man who (...) recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to the fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as sufferer but as fighter." - Speech in Munich 1922
@Knr911 II) So Hitler declared himself as a devout christian, even if, as you stated, he recognized chritianity as a threat to his totalitarianism.
His hatred of the jewish, among many other things, were because jews are the root of christianity, a latin culture who had "infected" the german culture.
I repeat, he did not believe at all in german paganism, he wanted to abolish chrisitanity to restore german empire for strictly cultural reasons.
@Knr911 III)Wiki: "Adolf Hitler's religious views" : "Some scholars maintain, that in contrast to other Nazi leaders, Hitler did not adhere to esoteric ideas, occultism, or Nazi mysticism, and even ridiculed such beliefs in private and possibly in public." // "Hitler never directed his attacks on Jesus himself, but viewed traditional Christianity as a corruption of the original ideas of Jesus, whom Hitler regarded as an Aryan opponent of the Jews."
@Knr911 " In Mein Kampf Hitler writes that Jesus "made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence. In return, Christ was nailed to the cross."
Here we see how christianity was corrupted by jews according to Hitler and how he saw the jews as the root of all evil.
@Knr911 I'm not sure what you're getting at? I'm looking at my comment of 5 days ago in which I say I see no evidence for Hitler embracing a form of "paganism" in Mein Kampf but plenty of evidence that he embraced a (twisted, maybe, but still undeniable) form of Christianity, and the comments you're posting now appear to be driving at a conclusion that is in agreement with that?
I'm still can't locate any anecdotal or empirical evidence that Hitler ever murdered anyone. I have found plenty for the montheistic figureheads yet they aren't disgusted with him. It doesn't matter God = mass murderer ≠ all theists = murderers. Pope = inquisitor ≠ all Catholics =inquisitors. Mao = atheist ≠ all atheists are communists and mass murderers.
Agreed and totalitarian regimes aren't alone in exploiting religious and secular nationalists.
Something else; certainly in movements like Italian Fascism and Nazism, there was an idea that you could only achieve freedom in the state; that only Homo fascistus was truly free. Apart from seeing religion as a threat to its practical authority, it was also getting in the way of 'freeing' the people.
@DLandonCole Exactly. And where a "state religion" IS embraced by the totalitarian regime, it is subverted to serve the regime, and any competing religions are persecuted as much as they are under any "atheistic" regime.
Actually, that seems quite plausible. Totalitarianism (the clue is in the very term) just can't tolerate the competition. After all, what else is religion, if not a totalitarian concept...
@gronkar66 So where a strong totalitarian regime ends up butting heads with a strong established organised religion you've got an even bigger recipe for disaster XD
The European Catholic countries were about the only ones who lended support to the Nazi's and it was atheists who ended up defeating them, it must be nice living in the la la land the Pope resides.
@johnycannuk Well, like I put it to other Christians: I'll be quite happy to accept that Hitler's theism was separated from their Christianity by an unbridgeable chasm, but they'll have to accept that Hitler's theism is separated from ATHEISM by a gap that is orders of magnitude larger still.
You know, when I hear someone lying through their teeth on a topic, I always feel as if what they say just raises more questions. If the church was sooo against the Nazis, why was not the whole religion carted off to be gassed as with the Jews? Why were they no 'redistributions' of wealth enacted against churches that singled them out, as with synagogues? Why were only a few percent of priests taken out? Why did not the church declare most of Europe excommunicated or anathema, etc?
@TheMrCJist Yup, but those priests who DID stand up to the Nazis do deserve our respect. And I find Mr. Ratzinger's comments even more disrespectful towards them than it was toward us atheists, because he is trying to present their struggle against the Nazi regime as something it never was.
I totally agree. I am not personally offended by Mr. Ratzingers comments, I am offended by what he said about the people who died opposing the Nazis. I cannot articulate in 300 words how many ways I find his comments just plain wrong.
Hitler was Rooms-katholiek zoals ook blijkt uit recent door het Vaticaan vrijgegeven documenten waarin staat vermeld dat de Italiaanse fascistisch dictator Mussolini, er tevergeefs bij de Paus op aandrong om de Duits nationaalsocialistische dictator Hitler te doen excommuniceren.
@rozeboosje Dat zal ongetwijfeld ;-) maar wat me verbaasd is: men stond geregistreerd als katholiek in die tijd, want ik weet nog dat je in de 70er jaren je UIT moest laten schrijven als je geen Katholiek meer wilde zijn.
Het is dus weird, dat daar niet meer bewijzen van zijn.
@TWITfromURANUS LOL - but no. He speaks very specifically about God in the Christian sense, and about how the Jews rejected "the saviour" in Mein Kampf. There can be no mistake, at least in his own mind he was a Christian.
Hitler didn't have a beef with anything, he was a strict vegetarian! I always say that Hitler was such an extreme deranged genocidal maniac he is not representative of anyone!
The Reichskonkordat negotiated between the Vatican and Hitler in 1933 is still active today. The reason why Germans still have to pay tax to the catholic church can be found back when. Also it requires that catholicism be offered taught in school. Clearly the catholic church has no problem upholding an agreement made with an immoral regime and then turn around and blame the evils on atheism.
I have to agree on your point. I believe that it is the easiest way to make people that don't really bother to look in to it to dislike some one or someone's veiwes. Just say that the worst possible people was like you/me and then every one know that we are not worth anything. That's why it is so important to question every thing until we know enough to clam that we know. Just a thought from me. Regards and have a skilful life. Pinge
Building on what I said yesterday, this is obviously how the pope looks at it. Atheists are the rebellion and every potential convert is "young Skywalker".
Agreed; in england this imo is why henry 8th created the church of england, most people say "oh he wanted to get married again" he could have just poisoned he wife lulz but regardless most people seem to over look that he is not the absolute figure of power and that to him would on some level be threatening and certainly undesirable.
Without the support of the vatican Hitler would not even have been hold credible as a contract partner, because the concordate between him and the vatican was the first time someone saw him as a contract partner. Until then noone wanted to congress with Hitler.
And let's also face that:
Without Mussolini the vatican wouldn't have even existed! Tomorrow i will make a video about both things, because they are forgotten often. Today i am busy sleeping ;), tomorrow literature class..
Hitler killed the jews because they killed Jesus... back in history it was actually common place for Catholics to do this long ago with inquisitors... they changed their stance...
And Hitler wanted to bring it back.
So if you want to say anything he was a Traditional Catholic.
Hitler considered the "church" to be atheists in disguise.
@GoatOfTheMountains With all of the cult theology shit and the archeological teams hunting for the grail, the spear and whatever else- It makes perfect sense.
testes... 1...2...3
TruthSurge 1 year ago
@TruthSurge hehehehhe
TruthSurge 1 year ago
@TruthSurge ;-)
rozeboosje 1 year ago
Good video, though I'd say that insofar as being a Christian can be defined as having a belief in the Abrahamic god and in Jesus of Nazareth as Christ the Redeemer, Hitler can rightly be called a Christian. He also believed the story of Genesis to be literal truth, though he believed that only Aryans were descended from Adam and Eve and that the other races had descended from apes, though evolution.
lewicron 1 year ago
@lewicron Yeah, maybe, but I won't be arguing the toss over that. As long as it's abudantly clear that he wasn't an Atheist. Whatever else he was or wasn't is of no concern to me.
rozeboosje 1 year ago
@rozeboosje Fair enough, the confusion over Hitler's attitude to religion stems from more than just his obvious distrust of *organized* religion, but also from dubious accounts of conversations with him wherein it's claimed he renounced Christianity in general. What gets me about theists who claim he only *pretended* to be religious is that they never examine *why* he felt pretending to be religious would be necessary in order to win political power and a mandate to murder Jews.
lewicron 1 year ago
@lewicron A valid observation indeed
rozeboosje 1 year ago
@rozeboosje Absolutely. Not only he wasn't an atheist but he hated atheists, plain and simple. I'm even surprised that he did not send atheists to death camps, along with jews, gypsies, homsexuals, handicapped, communists..., In fact he basically considered atheists to be communists, so that would explain the phenomenon in both ways.
Knr911 1 year ago
@Knr911 Oh, I can post now! Freaking GooTube.
Knr911 1 year ago
@TeesByTruthSurge Yes, that's possible, but there are also plenty of 5 year olds who don't appear terribly affected by this "brainwashing". It depends a lot on how fanatical it is. I myself was brought up - at least nominally - as a Roman Catholic, but I've never felt "brainwashed" or in any way intimidated by the belief system. It has always sounded like a whole load of codswallop to me :-)
rozeboosje 1 year ago
Hitler didn't like beef he was a vegetarian.
NShimaru 1 year ago
@NShimaru :P
rozeboosje 1 year ago
I disagree with the term "completely irrelevant". What a person believes does affect their actions at least in some way.
TruthSurge 1 year ago
@TruthSurge It's completely irrelevant to me. How it affects *them* is their lookout.
rozeboosje 1 year ago
@rozeboosje Is it irrelevant to the study of WWII and HItler?
TruthSurge 1 year ago
@TruthSurge Yes. Whether Hitler believed there was a god or not is irrelevant, as far as I'm concerned. That he believed that he was going "god's will" as he planned to exterminate the Jews is of course a different matter.
rozeboosje 1 year ago
@rozeboosje Could he have believed he was doing god's will if he wasn't religious?
TruthSurge 1 year ago
@TruthSurge Obviously not. But he also couldn't have believed he was doing god's will if his frontal lobes had been severed, if he had been killed in World War One, or if he had been a gorilla. Conversely he could have been just as evil had he thought that he had to put in place an atheistic communist utopia and anybody standing in the way of that lofty goal was obstructing humanity's destiny and should be exterminated. And what if he had been a quaker?
rozeboosje 1 year ago
@rozeboosje I think somewhere deep inside, we both know that Christian beliefs and Muslim beliefs have OFTEN led to atrocities whereas atheist beliefs don't seem to do that. So why is it that we shy away from drawing any connections? Just asking.
TruthSurge 1 year ago
@TruthSurge I think somewhere deep inside we both know that there are religious people who DO turn murderous and religious people who DON'T and that the same is true for people who are atheists. So why is it that we focus exclusively on ONE aspect of a personality and pretend that everything that is wrong with that person is caused by that and that alone? Just asking.
rozeboosje 1 year ago
@rozeboosje So, you think as many atheists have done immoral things as the religious? Even Paul admitted that the law the Jews followed actually made them sin more. Every other week, a pastor is in the news for child molestation (or so it seems). Abortion clinics bombed and abortion doctors murdered by.... atheists? naw. The deal is that most Christians DON'T really believe and therefore they really AREN'T true Christians. Else they'd obey James and pray for healing instead of a Dr. visit.
TruthSurge 1 year ago
@TruthSurge Er.... I don't think it's my place to decide what makes a "true christian" nor am I interested, and I certainly am not going to insist that a Christian must take everything that's written in the bible literally. What they do or don't take literally is their business, and their circle to square. Not my problem.
rozeboosje 1 year ago
@rozeboosje Not mine either. I just believe there is a fundamental difference between the mind of one under the influence of religion (the desert 3 but less so for Jews I'd say). We KNOW many bad things happened because of someone's religious beliefs but in this day and age, since it happens so rarely and in a clearcut way, no one really considers if there is a connection because 99.9% of Islam and Christianity NOW are not blowing up buildings.
TruthSurge 1 year ago
@TruthSurge My point is that religion doesn't just pop into existence out of nowhere. It was originally concocted in the human mind. So even if you insist on pointing at religion as a "cause" for (for example) violence, you should still dig deeper and consider what causes these types of religion to be created. The answer lies in human nature, NOT in "islam" or "christianity".
rozeboosje 1 year ago
He was simply retarded.
TheVodkaHaze 1 year ago
@TheVodkaHaze In some ways, yes. He was a genius at whipping up a frenzied crowd.
rozeboosje 1 year ago
Huh. So the problem Hitler had with organized religion is the same as the problem he had with communism: it competed with him for authority.
lazyperfectionist1 1 year ago
@lazyperfectionist1 Possibly
rozeboosje 1 year ago
@squeamishsquirrel Thank you
rozeboosje 1 year ago
hitler said that Christianity was a lie created by the jew i saw it on the history channel
jordler 1 year ago
@jordler Hitler said that he was doing the will of the Almighty, I read it myself in the original German in Mein Kampf.
rozeboosje 1 year ago
@rozeboosje I believe the operative word here is 'pwned'.
DLandonCole 1 year ago
How would you respond to this 2 part video by UNFFwildcard on the subject of Hitler and Atheism?
watch?v=QZo27NrTKSQ
watch?v=m6M2JndMGdo
direx 1 year ago
@direx I'll have a look :)
DLandonCole 1 year ago
The problem is too many false religions within its own sect.
None of the leaders or their followers obey their own rules,yet alone listen or speak for the Almighty!!! Claim lies as truth and truth as lies.
odephraimchai 1 year ago
@odephraimchai True, but it's sobering to note that Hitler would have agreed too.
rozeboosje 1 year ago
I agree, it is an ideology and not exclusively atheism itself that can lash out in violent matters. Totalitarian control must remove religion from power to have complete influence over the people. Unless, having religious support will gain more followers, which some dictators and militant terrorists have done.
TheMrDeist 1 year ago
@TheMrDeist "not exclusively atheism". I would even say that atheism simply doesn't enter the picture. Not believing in gods cannot make you violent. The notion is preposterous. You're right about how some totalitarian regimes embraced a "state religion" in order to subvert it into becoming part of the apparatus.
rozeboosje 1 year ago
who's speech? Can I watch it?
thefakeyeti 1 year ago
@thefakeyeti
Also, it sounds like the "prophets" like king david, may have simply been the hitlers of the day..
Any thoughts on THAT one?
thefakeyeti 1 year ago
@thefakeyeti I'm don't understand what you're asking for here.
rozeboosje 1 year ago
@rozeboosje
That the apparnt bibliical heros, that slaughtered several people IN THE BIBLE, may have simply been HITLERS.
However, they claimed to be god followers to the point of effecting scripture, as todays leaders, may claim to talk to god, but not to the point of being biblical.
Also, in the video you mentioned someones speech, which speech was it?
thefakeyeti 1 year ago
@thefakeyeti Oh. Yes. Joseph Ratzinger's speech. Google:
benedict speech scotland holyrood
And you'll find the text on line. The relevant three paragraphs start with
"Even in our own lifetime, we can recall how Britain and her leaders" [...]
rozeboosje 1 year ago
bullseye mate. totalitarianism is, to use modern parlance, a Sith philosophy. authority wants to command all the fundamental aspects of society, and clergy have, for centuries, exercised authority (to varying degrees) in direct competition with governments.
this is why the most dangerous politicians are the ones who claim to be in communion with God, as they hope to straddle both tigers and ride them.
gothatfunk 1 year ago
@gothatfunk Exactly
rozeboosje 1 year ago
Arguing about whether Hitler was a theist or not is pointless, since the driving force behind his hateful ideology wasn't religion or irreligion; it was Nazism, which was secular in essence, but often couched in religious language. As his prevailing philosophy, he often found Christianity obstructing it, and when it did, he got angry at it, and when it supported his views, suddenly he was all for it.
The charge of Nazism can't simply be laid at either the theist's or the atheist's door.
UppruniTegundanna 1 year ago
@UppruniTegundanna
The driving force behind Nazism was a preceived need to preserve volkishness, i.e. the spirit of the German folk. This is a spiritual and mystic concept, not secular. Nazis promoted a variety of Christianity called Positive Christianity which blended traditional Protestantism with New Agy ideas and neopaganism. Hitler claimed to be an insturment of Providence, hence could not tolerate other religious leaders in special relationships with God.
pirbird14 1 year ago
@pirbird14 Yes, a perceived need to preserve volkishness is classic tribalism: the notion that the presence of "outsiders" in a population constitutes a contamination of the local territory. Whether they promoted Positive Christianity or not is beside the point: you don't need to appeal to mysticism to get a population to buy into the kind of tribalism that was at the core of Nazism - simply primate xenophobia will do.
UppruniTegundanna 1 year ago
@UppruniTegundanna
Tribalism as found in tribal cultures is a mystic concept: it venerates the supposed "spirit of the tribe". Volkishness was a spiritual concept, expressed in the form of "blut und boden", "blood and soil". Supposedly, the blood carries the true spirit of a people in some undefined and mystic fashion. The soil of Germany supposedly imparted volkishness to the Germanic peoples. The irrationality of the concept is what makes it dangerous. See Wikipedia.
pirbird14 1 year ago
@UppruniTegundanna Agreed, though I agree with pirpird14's comments about volkishness. You, too, are right: you don't need to appeal to mysticism. But the Nazis did it all the same.
rozeboosje 1 year ago
@rozeboosje Well, I think we're both right. But I think that if we want to be honest, it should be acknowledged that Nazism ranked higher in the hierarchy of what was important to Hitler than Christianity, and that there were atheists who were seduced by it as well, such as Baldur von Shirach. We don't automatically escape hideous bigotry simply by abandoning faith. All humans are vulnerable to succumbing to it, and understanding that is the first step towards rising above that kind of crap.
UppruniTegundanna 1 year ago
The more I have been thinking about it recently, the less I find myself laying crimes such as the Holocaust, or even the Inquisition, at the feet of the religious. I find that these atrocities become far easier to understand if we accept that it is basic human nature - the tendency to want to eradicate anything that deviates from "X" philosophy - that causes this, and that that is the basic thing we should be aware of, whether it expresses itself in religious or secular terms.
UppruniTegundanna 1 year ago
@UppruniTegundanna I think that is part of the point I'm making in this video. Hitler *did* believe in a god, but whether he did or not is not relevant.
rozeboosje 1 year ago
Godwin'd.
Lol had to say it.
CommandoDude 1 year ago
@CommandoDude Dude, "Godwin" only applies when you try and compare your opponent to a Nazi. Just talking about Hitler and Nazis has nothing to do with "Godwin's law".
rozeboosje 1 year ago
Hitler's relationship and view of the church boiling down to a power-struggle is a genius observation.
metalorg 1 year ago
@metalorg Thanks
rozeboosje 1 year ago
Megalomaniac.
Building his cities underground. I am not sure what the goal behind that was. But it sounds a bit crazy.
He like bin Laden twist religion to suit their agenda.
GodlessManitoban 1 year ago
@GodlessManitoban Yup
rozeboosje 1 year ago
Religion was to be replaced by the state. Frankly, take out some of the anti-semitism (just some) and Hitler could be as popular today in most countries, as he was in Germany. If we look at some of the virtues that the Nazi's espoused, we'd instantly recognize many of them as virtues that are held up today.
Dead on analysis Mr. Boosje!
ravenslaves 1 year ago
@ravenslaves Thank you
rozeboosje 1 year ago
well said my friend.
DirtyKueker 1 year ago
@DirtyKueker Cheers
rozeboosje 1 year ago
Huh?
Hitler was born a christian.
In spite of that, Htler depised christianity and monotheism in general because it had, accorded to him, infected the german culture.
His hatred of the jewish raised because jews are the root of christianity.
He used christianity's anti-semitism to take jews as scapegoats wthin the socio-economic context but his aim was to eradicate christianity and get back to ancient germanic paganism, not for religious but for cultural reasons.
Knr911 1 year ago
@Knr911 There is no evidence Hitler ever wanted to go back to "ancient germanic paganism" or even "eradicate christianity". Liek roseboosje said, he wanted to eliminate the power of the organized churches and use their influence for his own propaganda. There were poeple around SS-Leader Himmler who fantasized vaguelly about a "germanic" religion, but these people were a small occult-like group. As far as I know (paranoid) Hitler was always sceptical about this fringe group in the NS ideology.
garm13 1 year ago
@garm13 I never said Rozeboosje's point is invalid, yes like many dictators Hitler ultimately considered organized religion as a threat to his totalitarian project. But yes, I'm sorry, it is a historical fact that Hitler depised jews because (among other things!) they're the root of christianity, ie. some latin influence which corrupted the ancient germanic culture. As I said, he himself did not hold a particular religious value to germanic paganism, it was all about "restoring germanic empire".
Knr911 1 year ago
@Knr911 I see no evidence for that whatsoever in Mein Kampf, for example. What I DO see is bizarre mind farts about how the Jews rejected the Saviour. Doesn't sound like "Paganism" to me, I'm afraid.
rozeboosje 1 year ago
@rozeboosje Well there are plenty of evidence, it's a historical fact.
Let's begin.
In Mein Kampf, he makes reference to christianisty or at least God, no?
Knr911 1 year ago
@Knr911 Yes
rozeboosje 1 year ago
@rozeboosje OK. I) "And so I believe to-day that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator. In standing guard against the Jew I am defending the handiwork of the Lord." - Mein Kampf
"I say: my feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Saviour as a fighter. It points me to the man who (...) recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to the fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as sufferer but as fighter." - Speech in Munich 1922
Knr911 1 year ago
@Knr911 II) So Hitler declared himself as a devout christian, even if, as you stated, he recognized chritianity as a threat to his totalitarianism.
His hatred of the jewish, among many other things, were because jews are the root of christianity, a latin culture who had "infected" the german culture.
I repeat, he did not believe at all in german paganism, he wanted to abolish chrisitanity to restore german empire for strictly cultural reasons.
Some related wiki articles are very well done.
Knr911 1 year ago
@Knr911 III)Wiki: "Adolf Hitler's religious views" : "Some scholars maintain, that in contrast to other Nazi leaders, Hitler did not adhere to esoteric ideas, occultism, or Nazi mysticism, and even ridiculed such beliefs in private and possibly in public." // "Hitler never directed his attacks on Jesus himself, but viewed traditional Christianity as a corruption of the original ideas of Jesus, whom Hitler regarded as an Aryan opponent of the Jews."
Knr911 1 year ago
@Knr911 " In Mein Kampf Hitler writes that Jesus "made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence. In return, Christ was nailed to the cross."
Here we see how christianity was corrupted by jews according to Hitler and how he saw the jews as the root of all evil.
Knr911 1 year ago
@Knr911 I'm not sure what you're getting at? I'm looking at my comment of 5 days ago in which I say I see no evidence for Hitler embracing a form of "paganism" in Mein Kampf but plenty of evidence that he embraced a (twisted, maybe, but still undeniable) form of Christianity, and the comments you're posting now appear to be driving at a conclusion that is in agreement with that?
rozeboosje 1 year ago
I'm still can't locate any anecdotal or empirical evidence that Hitler ever murdered anyone. I have found plenty for the montheistic figureheads yet they aren't disgusted with him. It doesn't matter God = mass murderer ≠ all theists = murderers. Pope = inquisitor ≠ all Catholics =inquisitors. Mao = atheist ≠ all atheists are communists and mass murderers.
Agreed and totalitarian regimes aren't alone in exploiting religious and secular nationalists.
GottliebBurckhardt 1 year ago
@GottliebBurckhardt Indeed
rozeboosje 1 year ago
Something else; certainly in movements like Italian Fascism and Nazism, there was an idea that you could only achieve freedom in the state; that only Homo fascistus was truly free. Apart from seeing religion as a threat to its practical authority, it was also getting in the way of 'freeing' the people.
DLandonCole 1 year ago
@DLandonCole Exactly. And where a "state religion" IS embraced by the totalitarian regime, it is subverted to serve the regime, and any competing religions are persecuted as much as they are under any "atheistic" regime.
rozeboosje 1 year ago
Well said.
DLandonCole 1 year ago
Well said - perfectly explained & TY. 8)
MilitantPeaceist 1 year ago
@MilitantPeaceist cheers
rozeboosje 1 year ago
Actually, that seems quite plausible. Totalitarianism (the clue is in the very term) just can't tolerate the competition. After all, what else is religion, if not a totalitarian concept...
gronkar66 1 year ago
@gronkar66 So where a strong totalitarian regime ends up butting heads with a strong established organised religion you've got an even bigger recipe for disaster XD
rozeboosje 1 year ago
Nicely explained. You've put a very clear perspective on this subject.
I'm sharing this on AI's facebook page, I think people there will appreciate it.
Ygern 1 year ago
@Ygern Thank you for that!
rozeboosje 1 year ago
The European Catholic countries were about the only ones who lended support to the Nazi's and it was atheists who ended up defeating them, it must be nice living in the la la land the Pope resides.
adrenacrumb 1 year ago
@adrenacrumb :-)
rozeboosje 1 year ago
Ah the irony of someone who was in the Hitler Youth calling someone else a Nazi. How delightful.
adrenacrumb 1 year ago
@adrenacrumb Oh, he never literally called anyone a nazi. He let the innuendo do that job in the background.
rozeboosje 1 year ago
Good points Pino :)
musicgeniusno1 1 year ago
@musicgeniusno1 Cheers
rozeboosje 1 year ago
Hitler was born and raised Catholic and remained a Christian of some kind all his life. He invoked Jesus and God in Mien Kampf multiple times.
Herr Ratzinger can piss and moan all he wants, Adolf was one of his...
johnycannuk 1 year ago
@johnycannuk Well, like I put it to other Christians: I'll be quite happy to accept that Hitler's theism was separated from their Christianity by an unbridgeable chasm, but they'll have to accept that Hitler's theism is separated from ATHEISM by a gap that is orders of magnitude larger still.
rozeboosje 1 year ago
You know, when I hear someone lying through their teeth on a topic, I always feel as if what they say just raises more questions. If the church was sooo against the Nazis, why was not the whole religion carted off to be gassed as with the Jews? Why were they no 'redistributions' of wealth enacted against churches that singled them out, as with synagogues? Why were only a few percent of priests taken out? Why did not the church declare most of Europe excommunicated or anathema, etc?
TheMrCJist 1 year ago
@TheMrCJist Yup, but those priests who DID stand up to the Nazis do deserve our respect. And I find Mr. Ratzinger's comments even more disrespectful towards them than it was toward us atheists, because he is trying to present their struggle against the Nazi regime as something it never was.
rozeboosje 1 year ago
@rozeboosje
I totally agree. I am not personally offended by Mr. Ratzingers comments, I am offended by what he said about the people who died opposing the Nazis. I cannot articulate in 300 words how many ways I find his comments just plain wrong.
TheMrCJist 1 year ago
Hitler was Rooms-katholiek zoals ook blijkt uit recent door het Vaticaan vrijgegeven documenten waarin staat vermeld dat de Italiaanse fascistisch dictator Mussolini, er tevergeefs bij de Paus op aandrong om de Duits nationaalsocialistische dictator Hitler te doen excommuniceren.
panthera50 1 year ago
@panthera50 Ja ok, maar hij was zeker een héél ander soort Rooms Katholiek dan, bijvoorbeeld, m'n vrouw.
rozeboosje 1 year ago
@rozeboosje Dat zal ongetwijfeld ;-) maar wat me verbaasd is: men stond geregistreerd als katholiek in die tijd, want ik weet nog dat je in de 70er jaren je UIT moest laten schrijven als je geen Katholiek meer wilde zijn.
Het is dus weird, dat daar niet meer bewijzen van zijn.
panthera50 1 year ago
He was probably a pantheist.
(We're all evil, y'know¦:¬)
TWITfromURANUS 1 year ago
@TWITfromURANUS LOL - but no. He speaks very specifically about God in the Christian sense, and about how the Jews rejected "the saviour" in Mein Kampf. There can be no mistake, at least in his own mind he was a Christian.
rozeboosje 1 year ago
Hitler didn't really have a problem with religion in general. The jews in particular were being scapegoated as 'evils' to rally the nation behind.
The guy placed himself as an agent of the divine and claimed the Aryans as the perfect, chosen race.
Mathenaut 1 year ago
It's all about power.
AtheistAussie 1 year ago
Hitler didn't have a beef with anything, he was a strict vegetarian! I always say that Hitler was such an extreme deranged genocidal maniac he is not representative of anyone!
astrophonix 1 year ago
The Reichskonkordat negotiated between the Vatican and Hitler in 1933 is still active today. The reason why Germans still have to pay tax to the catholic church can be found back when. Also it requires that catholicism be offered taught in school. Clearly the catholic church has no problem upholding an agreement made with an immoral regime and then turn around and blame the evils on atheism.
socrates856 1 year ago
@socrates856 I just copy/pasted your comment to one of my documents for verification and research. Thank you for that fact & insight. Valueable!
727Phoenix 1 year ago
I have to agree on your point. I believe that it is the easiest way to make people that don't really bother to look in to it to dislike some one or someone's veiwes. Just say that the worst possible people was like you/me and then every one know that we are not worth anything. That's why it is so important to question every thing until we know enough to clam that we know. Just a thought from me. Regards and have a skilful life. Pinge
PingeMusic 1 year ago
Building on what I said yesterday, this is obviously how the pope looks at it. Atheists are the rebellion and every potential convert is "young Skywalker".
Orygyn 1 year ago
Agreed; in england this imo is why henry 8th created the church of england, most people say "oh he wanted to get married again" he could have just poisoned he wife lulz but regardless most people seem to over look that he is not the absolute figure of power and that to him would on some level be threatening and certainly undesirable.
SothisAmon 1 year ago
Let's face it:
Without the support of the vatican Hitler would not even have been hold credible as a contract partner, because the concordate between him and the vatican was the first time someone saw him as a contract partner. Until then noone wanted to congress with Hitler.
And let's also face that:
Without Mussolini the vatican wouldn't have even existed! Tomorrow i will make a video about both things, because they are forgotten often. Today i am busy sleeping ;), tomorrow literature class..
mardastheEitheist 1 year ago
I think he wanted all of that messiah power to himself.
bamboo4tameshigiri 1 year ago
@bamboo4tameshigiri :-)
rozeboosje 1 year ago
@rozeboosje
Hitler killed the jews because they killed Jesus... back in history it was actually common place for Catholics to do this long ago with inquisitors... they changed their stance...
And Hitler wanted to bring it back.
So if you want to say anything he was a Traditional Catholic.
Hitler considered the "church" to be atheists in disguise.
sykeo123 1 year ago
@bamboo4tameshigiri A reasonable thought, indeed.
GoatOfTheMountains 1 year ago
@GoatOfTheMountains With all of the cult theology shit and the archeological teams hunting for the grail, the spear and whatever else- It makes perfect sense.
bamboo4tameshigiri 1 year ago