taking it slow is not the easy option: keeping bow control and playing off the string, as the articulation requires, at this tempo is extremely hard. i am persuaded by the result and by his verbal explanations which i read (I have no german to speak of) that this is A valid reading of the scherzo of beethoven's 9th, which symphony i have performed several times over the years
There is Celibidache and after him long long long and once again long nobody. Most compleate conductor and musician ever existed. But one thing is to hear him on the screen an to hear him life. Music with him was more than just a beautiful soundexperience, it had a spiritual and metaphysic reason and touched nearly everybody deeply in the concert as human beings and not only as music lovers.
@Bautisnemo Ah, nice to meet you! I have two reflections and a question to add to the conversation you have initiated with me: – I am a professional musician who spends a great deal of time both practising and thinking about music-making. – I am glad my mother taught me good manners. – I'm curious: what is your personal relationship with either music -making or manners? Yours sincerely, Anonymous Name on YouTube
@Bautisnemo I agree: one can always learn how better to communicate one's ideas. Let me point out however that all I did below is offer an opinion, and that you are the one who introduced the element of personal attack.
I will say this: I admire you very much for having begun your career as a professional musician younger than 10 years old! You're way ahead of me, there!
@sgabriel Great musicians makes mistakes, of course , anyone is human, but your right to judge those mistakes , specially comparing their careers to yours , which with all the respect of the world, I don't think is as big and as recognised as theirs , is just zero. To criticize you need to introduce another elements in your statement so we , people who respect and love this musicians, can learn from your opinion, not just " This is rubbish, he insults Beethoven, he makes mistakes ,bla bla bla
@vivaciouscritic too slow? in relation to....? What for a judgement is this. Only deafness and ignorance can generate a similar criticism. The real issue is: what is the time in music and what criteria will determine the execution time of a piece of music.
vivaciouscritic is both vivacious and astute. Celibidache's tempo here (dotted-half=92) is FAR slower than the tempo Beethoven intended for his composition. Beethoven's tempo marking is 116.
@sgabriel It's 100% Beethoven. Beethoven couldn't have heard whether or not his tempo markings were appropriate or not. Many composers change their metronome markings upon hearing their works for the first time. Beethoven had little rehearsal time with poor orchestras. Tempo is NOT an independent factor- it is dependent on many things, the acoustic, the ensemble, and especially the musical content. Celibidache's is the only performance I've heard where I can hear everything Beethoven wrote.
Greetings PDQGorby. With respect, I must say I disagree with you completely!
Beethoven's music remains because he was a towering musician. He knew, without a doubt, exactly how his music would sound. (That is the fundamental skill of a composer, and Beethoven was a master composer.) His creations are products not of an intellectual exercise, but of a profoundly insightful inner ear. Further, he understood the technical capabilities of all the instruments for which wrote...
... and was very precise in his markings. He had lots of very developed ideas about tempo, as evidenced by his letters as well as by his scores (and of course knew how many seconds there are in a minute!).
Tempo is the very foundation of musical structure. We don't change tempo to suit the acoustic any more than we would rewrite the notes!
I think it's important to note also the verbal tempo marking, which perfectly reflects the metronomic marking:
Molto vivace!
Celi is basically saying "I am right, Beethoven is wrong", instead of trying to breathe life into what Beethoven wrote. Mind you, he's not the only conductor ever to commit this crime!
@Bautisnemo The tempo! I've already said so! He takes an EXTREMELY different tempo from the one Beethoven specifies, which changes the music fundamentally. Taking a different basic tempo from the one specified by any composer is a deeply presumptuous alteration of that composer's work. You can be Celibidache, Karajan, or any other worshiped figure, changing the basic tempo is the most profound departure from the composer's intentions that you can make.
@sgabriel all you ppl are so outraged by this tempo: have you ever considered that it might be just a "rehearsal tempo", and not really the performance tempo?Just so that all the musicians can really hear everything that is going on and every orchestral part and, in the meantime and one of the Celibidache's signature rehearsal objectives, have a deeper understanding and interpretation of the music they are playing..People familiar with the orchestral music world sure know what I'm talking about!
@eumuitomenos I was a professional double bass player for some 20 years. Maybe Celi was different, but in my experience conductors only took it slower than they intended for amateurs who had not learned to play their parts. and they made it angrily clear that was why they did it.If this is valid then this here was indeed Celi's intended tempo, and, getting to know his work, I would believe it.
not that I am complaining, this tempo is intriguing and I might get used to it
@sgabriel By the way if this : This is Celibidache at his most arrogant, musically and personally. I find it ugly and disrespectful across the board.
sgabriel il y a 2 semaines
Is not an ad hoc statement = personal attack, ? If not I don't really know what the hell is this.
@sgabriel "molto vivace" does not strictly indicate a tempo, but a manner, does it not? "Very lively". at a slower tempo than usual? why not? if he can get away with it, by all means
@Strefanasha I agree: "molto vivace" does not STRICTLY prescribe a tempo; it is a tempo marking, nevertheless. Beethoven cared deeply about tempo and was very careful in marking them. I can't see L.v. marking "molto vivace" rather than any of the other possibilities (allegro ma non troppo, animato...) unless he wanted it very fast, can you?
I love the transparency 'Celi' often brought; I don't like fundamental aspects of composers' work being changed... e.g. tempos.
@sgabriel but the metronome was only newly invented at the time. it was not a precision instrument' and to my knowledge taking beethoven at the marked readings is to take them too fast, because of this error in the metronome which was invented by Malzel and gently lampooned in the "slow" movement of the 8th symphony
@Strefanasha True, it was new, but the metronome WAS a precision instrument, if prone to unreliability if poorly maintained. Beethoven and Maelzel had a close relationship and Beethoven famously maintained his metronome in perfect working order.. we can see this in his letters. I know the stories about the Scherzando of the 8th... There's no reason to believe that the joke is about inaccuracy. I think it's just a light-hearted parody of a metronome or of metronomic playing.
taking it slow is not the easy option: keeping bow control and playing off the string, as the articulation requires, at this tempo is extremely hard. i am persuaded by the result and by his verbal explanations which i read (I have no german to speak of) that this is A valid reading of the scherzo of beethoven's 9th, which symphony i have performed several times over the years
Strefanasha 2 months ago
@eumuitomenos ... But I think that Celibidache's chosen tempo in the Munich recording is even slower!
sgabriel 4 months ago
@eumuitomenos You make an excellent point, sir.
sgabriel 4 months ago
Comment removed
eumuitomenos 4 months ago
what a tempo!! I like the young celibidache. the old one is simple embarassing. anyone else could do better.
ThePlutino 5 months ago
@ThePlutino Germans have a good expression for your virtuoso: "Halt die Klappe"!
zezeoli 4 months ago
There is Celibidache and after him long long long and once again long nobody. Most compleate conductor and musician ever existed. But one thing is to hear him on the screen an to hear him life. Music with him was more than just a beautiful soundexperience, it had a spiritual and metaphysic reason and touched nearly everybody deeply in the concert as human beings and not only as music lovers.
lavardscs 6 months ago
This is Celibidache at his most arrogant, musically and personally. I find it ugly and disrespectful across the board.
sgabriel 6 months ago
@sgabriel Ey of course , you're right , he's one of the biggest conductors of the XXth century and you're just...mmm an anonymous name on youtube :_D
Bautisnemo 6 months ago
Comment removed
sgabriel 6 months ago
@Bautisnemo Ah, nice to meet you! I have two reflections and a question to add to the conversation you have initiated with me: – I am a professional musician who spends a great deal of time both practising and thinking about music-making. – I am glad my mother taught me good manners. – I'm curious: what is your personal relationship with either music -making or manners? Yours sincerely, Anonymous Name on YouTube
sgabriel 6 months ago
@sgabriel
- I was a proffessional violinist for more than 18 years
- I worked with classical musicians in one of the biggest and more powerful agencies for classical musicians int his planet.
- My manners are exquisite but extremely harsh with people who criticizes without sharing any constructive intentions.
- You should learn how to criticize without look like an arrogant little human being.
Sincerely yours
Bautisnemo
Bautisnemo 6 months ago
@Bautisnemo I agree: one can always learn how better to communicate one's ideas. Let me point out however that all I did below is offer an opinion, and that you are the one who introduced the element of personal attack.
I will say this: I admire you very much for having begun your career as a professional musician younger than 10 years old! You're way ahead of me, there!
sgabriel 5 months ago
@sgabriel Your lack of respect to one of the biggest figures in classical music is just disgusting as your manners sir.
Bautisnemo 5 months ago
@Bautisnemo I don't lack respect for Celibidache! But even great musicians make mistakes, and I think this is a big one.
sgabriel 5 months ago
@sgabriel Great musicians makes mistakes, of course , anyone is human, but your right to judge those mistakes , specially comparing their careers to yours , which with all the respect of the world, I don't think is as big and as recognised as theirs , is just zero. To criticize you need to introduce another elements in your statement so we , people who respect and love this musicians, can learn from your opinion, not just " This is rubbish, he insults Beethoven, he makes mistakes ,bla bla bla
Bautisnemo 5 months ago
@Bautisnemo Come on, son! I never compared my career to anyone's. If you were interested in my comment, or in me, you might have asked!
sgabriel 5 months ago
@sgabriel Dear Sir, I don't allow to call me boy, son, guy or whatever, same exchange of respect , please :)
Bautisnemo 5 months ago
@Bautisnemo Everyone's a music critic these days, especially on youtube ;) So just ignore such unprofessionalism ;)
relav295 4 months ago
Beautiful. The before and after of the art process. I've gone through this and not only in musical contexts.
mrpossibilities 6 months ago
awesome!
realimaginatn 8 months ago
too slow.
vivaciouscritic 1 year ago
@vivaciouscritic were you there?
deandusk 1 year ago
@vivaciouscritic I suppose you prefer Karajan right?
catatito 1 year ago
@vivaciouscritic too slow? in relation to....? What for a judgement is this. Only deafness and ignorance can generate a similar criticism. The real issue is: what is the time in music and what criteria will determine the execution time of a piece of music.
MrRanapo 7 months ago
vivaciouscritic is both vivacious and astute. Celibidache's tempo here (dotted-half=92) is FAR slower than the tempo Beethoven intended for his composition. Beethoven's tempo marking is 116.
This is more Celibidache, less Beethoven.
sgabriel 6 months ago
@sgabriel It's 100% Beethoven. Beethoven couldn't have heard whether or not his tempo markings were appropriate or not. Many composers change their metronome markings upon hearing their works for the first time. Beethoven had little rehearsal time with poor orchestras. Tempo is NOT an independent factor- it is dependent on many things, the acoustic, the ensemble, and especially the musical content. Celibidache's is the only performance I've heard where I can hear everything Beethoven wrote.
PDQGorby 6 months ago
Greetings PDQGorby. With respect, I must say I disagree with you completely!
Beethoven's music remains because he was a towering musician. He knew, without a doubt, exactly how his music would sound. (That is the fundamental skill of a composer, and Beethoven was a master composer.) His creations are products not of an intellectual exercise, but of a profoundly insightful inner ear. Further, he understood the technical capabilities of all the instruments for which wrote...
sgabriel 5 months ago
... and was very precise in his markings. He had lots of very developed ideas about tempo, as evidenced by his letters as well as by his scores (and of course knew how many seconds there are in a minute!).
Tempo is the very foundation of musical structure. We don't change tempo to suit the acoustic any more than we would rewrite the notes!
sgabriel 5 months ago
I think it's important to note also the verbal tempo marking, which perfectly reflects the metronomic marking:
Molto vivace!
Celi is basically saying "I am right, Beethoven is wrong", instead of trying to breathe life into what Beethoven wrote. Mind you, he's not the only conductor ever to commit this crime!
sgabriel 5 months ago
@sgabriel Where is he saying , " I am right , Beethoven is wrong " ? Please , I would love to know.
Bautisnemo 5 months ago
@Bautisnemo The tempo! I've already said so! He takes an EXTREMELY different tempo from the one Beethoven specifies, which changes the music fundamentally. Taking a different basic tempo from the one specified by any composer is a deeply presumptuous alteration of that composer's work. You can be Celibidache, Karajan, or any other worshiped figure, changing the basic tempo is the most profound departure from the composer's intentions that you can make.
sgabriel 5 months ago
@sgabriel To defend the tempo as a sacred rule is just naive sir , interpretation is the most important force.
Bautisnemo 5 months ago
@sgabriel all you ppl are so outraged by this tempo: have you ever considered that it might be just a "rehearsal tempo", and not really the performance tempo?Just so that all the musicians can really hear everything that is going on and every orchestral part and, in the meantime and one of the Celibidache's signature rehearsal objectives, have a deeper understanding and interpretation of the music they are playing..People familiar with the orchestral music world sure know what I'm talking about!
eumuitomenos 4 months ago
@eumuitomenos I was a professional double bass player for some 20 years. Maybe Celi was different, but in my experience conductors only took it slower than they intended for amateurs who had not learned to play their parts. and they made it angrily clear that was why they did it.If this is valid then this here was indeed Celi's intended tempo, and, getting to know his work, I would believe it.
not that I am complaining, this tempo is intriguing and I might get used to it
Strefanasha 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@sgabriel By the way if this : This is Celibidache at his most arrogant, musically and personally. I find it ugly and disrespectful across the board.
sgabriel il y a 2 semaines
Is not an ad hoc statement = personal attack, ? If not I don't really know what the hell is this.
Bautisnemo 5 months ago
@sgabriel "molto vivace" does not strictly indicate a tempo, but a manner, does it not? "Very lively". at a slower tempo than usual? why not? if he can get away with it, by all means
Strefanasha 2 months ago
@Strefanasha I agree: "molto vivace" does not STRICTLY prescribe a tempo; it is a tempo marking, nevertheless. Beethoven cared deeply about tempo and was very careful in marking them. I can't see L.v. marking "molto vivace" rather than any of the other possibilities (allegro ma non troppo, animato...) unless he wanted it very fast, can you?
I love the transparency 'Celi' often brought; I don't like fundamental aspects of composers' work being changed... e.g. tempos.
sgabriel 2 months ago
@sgabriel but the metronome was only newly invented at the time. it was not a precision instrument' and to my knowledge taking beethoven at the marked readings is to take them too fast, because of this error in the metronome which was invented by Malzel and gently lampooned in the "slow" movement of the 8th symphony
Strefanasha 2 months ago
@Strefanasha True, it was new, but the metronome WAS a precision instrument, if prone to unreliability if poorly maintained. Beethoven and Maelzel had a close relationship and Beethoven famously maintained his metronome in perfect working order.. we can see this in his letters. I know the stories about the Scherzando of the 8th... There's no reason to believe that the joke is about inaccuracy. I think it's just a light-hearted parody of a metronome or of metronomic playing.
sgabriel 2 months ago
Wann war das? War das in Muenchen?
Danke fuer das Video - wirklich toll!
daxdax500 1 year ago