Wow you folks really do have downsyndrome. All religion, and especially Christianity is over the top stupid and in fact I believe that you all should be fuckin euthanized so it will be impossible for you create more of your mentally deficient offspring.
Thinking it through is what distinguishes God's servant. Intolerance of corruption is Christian, Romans 1:32, Psalm 139:21-22. Now whether a man converts quickly or slowly, I hope that one day he will beecome as I. Am I "scary" for opposing what I know brings down the hood.
The Bible does not say what percentage of mankind is among the elect. I would say it's AT LEAST a remnant or one-third of the whole world -- but probably much more. But only God knows for sure.
In some nations, even "Egypt," the Bible says that "five out of six" will be saved.
Isaiah 19:18 "In that day five cities in the land of Egypt will speak the language of Canaan and swear by the Lord of hosts; one will be called the City of Destruction."
1.) I respect your fervor for Christ and support your ambition to change society for good by the great commission of Christ. I'm with you bro'. I also support Christian involvement in politics, etc. I take it your biblical support for a 1/3 remnant comes from Zechariah 13:8. Is this correct? Well that seems to indicate that that particular remnant will be refined with fire. Is this how the bible discribes Christian sanctification?
2.) I agree that there will be fire at the bema seat that will purge us of works of stubble etc. but is Zech 13:8 referring to that? Of course not. Read vs 1: " "On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity." You are confused because you have highjacked the verses that refer to Israel and have applied them (wrongly) to the church
3.) I think the words "Inhabitants of Jerusalem" mean: "Inhabitants of Jerusalem". The bible is replete with the descriptions of the last days. It is not one of a glorious work of the church Christianizing the planet but rather a day of utter darkness; a day in which even the church falls into apostasy; a day where the Babylon church and the Anti-christ will "overcome the saints".
I do not advocate "replacement theology" that the church has replaced nation of Israel under the New Covenant. Most of the promises made specifically to Israel have come on the church -- "the new Israel of God" Galatians 6:16.
In order to fully receive the promises of God, ethnic Jews must accept the messiah, Jesus of Nazareth, as their King and Savior. Then the same promises that apply to the church, the new Israel of God, apply to the Jews.
So in short I agree that Zech. 18:8 refers to ethnic Israel under the New Covenant at the time of Jesus and the coming of the kingdom of God, not in a future "millennial reign" in which the kingdom of God is delayed.
Postmil DOES teach a future apostasy, but it occurs AFTER the millennium is drawing to a close at the very end of history after Christ has ruled over the nations for a long time and has transformed the hearts of nations (Rev. 20).
Rev. 20 does not say exactly what percentage of the earth will be among the rebellion. The postmil view teaches that it will be brief and unsuccessful -- not a long slow decline into an era of darkness.
O.K. but it is clear in Rev and replete elseware that a worldwide apostacy will happen before the return of Christ. My goodness, chapter 6-18 describe this dark event before the return of Christ in ch 19. Chapter 19 then starts out with the words "After these things.." (Ater what things?-tribulation) Then Christ (not the church) is pictured defeating the armies of the world. The apostacy you refer to in ch 20 is a seperate event sperated by 1000 years. This is the plain reading of the text.
There will be one apostasy prior to the Second Coming and then one after 1000 years of peace and love in the actual physical presence of the ascended Christ?
Yes, Christ will be present during the millenium but not all will be "honky dory". Isaiah 65 says concerning this time: "For the youth will die at the age of one hundred and the one who does not reach the age of one hundred will be thought accursed."
Although life will be extended, death will still happen. And even though Christ will be physically present and Satan will be locked up, sin will still be present. Again, this is the plain reading of the text as I read it.
I believe the will, but in glorified bodies. The details of Christ's government isn't totally spelled out in scripture. Perhaps the "raptured" saints will have some charge over judicial and administrating in this millenial period. Of course, as glorified saints, they will not sin. To what extent God will shield them from sinful acts of others, I don't know. Jude says Christ will return with 10,000s of His "saints" to execute judgement. There too we see glorified saints with mortal sinners.
Yes, there will be physical people that enter into the millenium, although they live to an age like that before the flood. To what extent the translated saints will interact with those on earth, like I said, I don't know. Biblically, men have interacted with angelic beings so I have know problem with this. The world will still have corruption, but not like the present because Satan will be bound and Christ will be present. Regarding marriage, Jesus made it clear that those in heaven do not marry
I don't believe that earthly saints will die during the millenium, only those who are rebellious. They will go to Hades and be resurrected at the end of the millenium to be judged before the great white throne. Then death and Hades will be throne together into the lake of fire. This is the order I read in Rev 20. Unless the context demands otherwise, reading the text in order suits me.
This is the reason I am a preterist and a postmillennialist. Otherwise, there are two Great Apostasies, two Armageddons, two (or even three!) Second Comings.
Postmil interprets biblical texts with fewest difficulties.
John Jefferson Davis said it best in his book, Christ's Victorious Kingdom. All eschatological systems are presented with biblical texts that are difficult to explain, but postmillennialism has the LEAST amount of difficulties.
We'll we agree that all bible "systems" have difficulties. I of course think Premill has the least diffulties. Do you think the church apostasied in the dark ages? If so, I'd say you have more than one as well. Dispy's don't view Rev 20 (God/Magog) as Armageddon, so we have only one. We see the tribulation time as one coming of Christ, albeit in two phases accomplishing different aspects of His return. The Jews stumbled here too seeing only one messianic coming predicted in prophetic scripture.
Dispensationalism teaches, in effect, THREE Second Comings: the coming of Christ for the saints at the rapture; the coming of Christ to the earth at the end of the seven year tribulation; and the Father's coming at the end of the millennium.
Dispesationalism teaches a rapture before (or during) the tribulation and the second coming after the tribulation; 2 phases of one event. Again, the old testament makes referrences to Jesus coming as a servent and as a king right in the same context. Nobody understood a first and second coming. That said, it isn't outside of the "pale" for God have two stages in one event. Especially considering how the first is secret and the second visible. Not sure where you get a third coming by the Father?
Yes. I don't use partial preterist as a term. It's just preterism. Heretical "consistent preterism" doesn't exist in academic circles -- only on the Internet where there is room for every bizarre theory imaginable. Orthodox preterism has a number of credible scholars who defend it.
Again, to interpret this as present "Jews" coming to faith in Christ does no justice to a "plain" reading of the text. It refers to the House of David, the inhabitants of Jerusalem. You say that Zech 13 is ethnic Israel. O.K. Then how is it that you use the 1/3 remnent in the same chapter to refer to 2+ billion people saved on earth as a result of the preaching of the gospel? Do you see how random your theology gets? You take that piece and apply it there and take that piece and apply it there.
I agree that ethnic Jews come to salvation by faith in Jesus (Messiah) and that is happening individualistically at the present. Romans 9-11 is key here. Paul says that God is not finished with Israel and that they will be saved in a day. I do feel you still confuse Old Testament nation promises with the church as it is today (since the cross). The church is in a "sense" spiritual Israel but this does not nullify God's promises to the ethnic nation Israel (Rom 11)
Jonathan writes: I do feel you still confuse Old Testament nation promises with the church as it is today.
**************
Since you prefer a plain reading of the text. How do you interpret Galatians 3:13,14 --
Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree") that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
jcr4runner: Your a brother in Christ, no doubt, but your theology is just not scriptural. Postmillenialism is not taught in scripture. Were are never commanded to start a theocracy. Christ's message was one of saving indiduals that were chosen as Hid sheep, not restructuring society into some kind of theocracy. Rome tried that. The bible clearly states that times will wax worse and worse before Christ's second coming. He and He only will be the one to ussure in a rule of God on earth.
Do you believe that the Great Commision will fail in history? Do you not believe that the nations of men will turn to Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit?
Do you believe that the Lord of the universe, the Holy Spirit Himself, can be so easily defeated by men?
Men who are saved and changed by God change everything around them, including their society.
Those great men of old, those great reformers who were burned at the stake and grinded into dust truly changed the world.
1.)Great commission said to make disciples of every nation, not make every person of every nation disciples
2.)I believe the scripture in Matt 24 that says Christ will seperate the nations when He returns
3.)No, but it will be Christ Himself who is victorious over the nations in the end, not man. Christ said rhetorically: "When I return, will I find faith on the earth?"
I believe that Christians can change society and I support it. Post-mill goes beyond this.
1. Postmil teaches that a remnant will be saved. A biblical remnant is 1/3. If 2.6 billion people were committed Christians, that would revolutionize the world.
2. Postmil teaches judgment both within history and at the end.
"He who sets up and pulls down, confines or extends empires at his pleasure, generally, if not always, carries on his work with instruments apparently unfit for the great purpose, but which in his hands are always effectual ... God does the work, but not without instruments, and they who are employed are denominated as his servants; no king, nor kingdom was ever destroyed by a miracle which effectually excluded the agency of second causes ...
We may affect humility in refusing to be made the instruments of Divine vengeance, but the good servant will execute the will of his master. Samuel will slay Agag; Moses, Aaron, and Hur will pray in the mountain, and Joshua will defeat the Canaanites."
4.)Your a brother and I respect you but your theology is wrong. I love the Reformers and study them but they didn't understand the Eschatological biblical teachings concerning Israel and the church. They read all that through an anti-Roman, anti-Pope, and yes an anti-Semetic framework. I know you won't agree. This is not the right format to iron out these theological differences. Let's not divide on this. You're my brother and I love you. God bless...
Cromwell, Whitefield, Hodge and many other Reformed postmillennial Christians have believed that the conversion of Israel (ethnic Jews) was key to the fulfillment of the Great Commission.
I agree it's not good to divide, but hurling charges of anti-semitism in postmillennial theology doesn't help.
I just listed the Reformed greats who I know off the top of my head wrote hopefully about the Jews. There re many others.
I believe God has a plan for Jews, Roman Catholic nations, Muslims, Hindus, pagans, western humanist "Protestants," atheists -- a great harvest of believers from every nation under heaven.
Premils are the ones who are most pessimistic about the total number of the elect.
Yes, but the promise went through Isaac. God has a future plan for Israel yet unfulfilled. If you believe in God's predestinal election than you can't throw out God's election of Israel. My daddy once told me, if God can break His promises to Israel, who's to say He can't break them to us as well.
Premill's pessimssism rest on man's inabilty. The same is said for much of Postmill's optimism. Premill's says that in the end, it will be Christ alone who puts down an evil world, not man.
In the same way that it is impossible for a man to save himself, it is impossible for men to reform a fallen world. But all things are possible with Christ.
We may disagree about how to interpret secific promises and prophecies to Israel in the Old Testament.
The BIG question is:
Did Christ give the Great Commission knowing
the church would fail and that Israel ("another church") would fufill it AFTER the Second Coming and the rapture?
In a nutshell that is what dispensationalism teaches.
I think you're misunderstanding the great commision which says,"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations." You seem to confuse the "visible" church with the "true IN-visible" church. Christ's commission involved the invisible church of individuals from all nations who would be chosen as His sheep. This commission is being accomplished and will be accomplished. A visible apostacy that will take place before Christ's return will not nullify Christ's great commission.
I don't think the great commission is a quota system(numbers must continually increase.) Of course I support increase. But I think the gospel was an expanse by location, not numbers. All people groups would have the gospel preached to them. But a continual increase of numbers doesn't seem to coincide with statements like the rhetorical statement of Jesus when He said, "When I return, will I find faith on earth?". I think I Tim 3:1-8 and II Tim 4:3-4 support this apastasy in the end times.
"Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?"
The question is demonstrative rather than interrogative, that is, the answer is not "yes" or "no." The question concludes the parable as a rhetorical device. We as Christians must pray in faith and never grow weary. We are commanded by our Lord to pray even if the answer to prayer is late in coming, even until the time when the Son of Man returns to the earth.
Jesus said, "When the Son of man returns, will he find faith on earth?"
I've always found that to be an amazing example of an out-of-context objection. You interpret it to mean that Jesus will not find ANY faith on the earth when he returns?
But the context is the parable of the unjust judge. Postmillennialists don't interpret Luke 18:8 in the negative. The whole context of this parable is that it is to demonstrate that we always ought to pray in faith and never to grow weary of praying.
Yes, Jesus addressed persistent prayer and then interupted with the word, "HOWEVER". The implication seems to imply an opposite or change of direction of what was just being described (perhaps I'm wrong). I believe this statement eludes to a faithless church in the end times, not that there will be no people of faith at all. Like the Jewish day, the day of the Lord is one that starts with darkness. You say post-mill best fits biblically but the verses against it are practically countless.
Again, your focus on the "sinking ship" is in the wrong place. That "ship" is the exterior outward church system. The "true church" is made up of individuals from all of these world structures (denominations). So you're either/or has a built in fallacy which make it unaswerable. I do think true Christians will effect society for the good. I'm not a spiritual isalationist (privatization of belief). I support your desire to bring the Christian voice to the public arena. Go for it!!
If we are successful in fulfilling the Great Commission, we would expect to see a gradual increase in the PERCENTAGE of Christians in the world population. That is true in history and especially in the last half of the 20th century.
If this increase of obedient Christians results in societal reformation, then why would we expect to see society grow worse and worse?
Barring a final BRIEF apostasy, I don't see the logic or scriptural support for that scenario.
The key is that I was NOT hurtling anti-semeticism charges at "YOU" but only saying that there was an anti-semetic flavor to much of the writings of the Reformers. I'm not saying they had zero love for the Jews and that they didn't desire that the Jews accept Christ but that many of them had an anti-semetic tone. This is not at all hard to prove, their writing show this. Would you like quotes?? I love the Reformers as much as you do. I'm presently attending a reformed church.(non-dispensational)
He seems to have two arguments "Well, if there was not christianity, then there would be something else" and "there will always be some intolerance".
The first statement seems to almost backfire... Is he arguing that the only reason we should follow the christian law is be cause it happens to be more popular, that there is no actual reason besides chance?
For the second argument:
There will always be some murder too, but that does not jutify expanding it.
The first argument is that someone with some philosophy is going to rule. If you are a Christian, you obviously prefer a Christian with a biblical philosophy. But someone or something is going to rule.
The second argument has to do with there ALWAYS being some level of intolerance. If not, then you are intolerant of intolerant people.
We don't tolerate Nazis and the Ku Klux Klan, therefore we are intolerant of intolerance.
Well you're right. You are intolerant. Here we have it laid out at last. You are actually saying explicitly that you can't be a good American and a good Christian at the same time. Do away with the establishment clause, free speech, and freedom of religion. I'll defend your right to espouse this hate filled bullshit but fight you on any attempt to make this garbage into law.
I don't trust that statement, its too good to be true and to easy to swallow. Only an overconfident fly can swing close to the web, pushing her luck and get caught.
You should feel ashamed by playing off the emotions of Americans agonizing for political change. What a trully Christian thing to do. I love how this guy shrugs off the accusations of enforcing no public worship of "false" gods as being intolerant, yet, would play the intolerance card for a push to teach intelligent design.
LOL. Love how he tries to explain away that the OT demands execution of folks who proselytize for false gods. One very effective way to solve Hari Krishnas bothering you at the Airports.
The Old Testament does demand the execution of idolaters. The question he is answering is not whether he thinks this was a just law. It is God's Law and it is just. The question is whether it is applicable under the New Covenant we have today in Christ.
Wow you folks really do have downsyndrome. All religion, and especially Christianity is over the top stupid and in fact I believe that you all should be fuckin euthanized so it will be impossible for you create more of your mentally deficient offspring.
goosemonsta 2 years ago
It is thinking that creates reconstruction. Judge means tolerate, Romans 1:32-2:1.
Inteckno 3 years ago
Thinking it through is what distinguishes God's servant. Intolerance of corruption is Christian, Romans 1:32, Psalm 139:21-22. Now whether a man converts quickly or slowly, I hope that one day he will beecome as I. Am I "scary" for opposing what I know brings down the hood.
Inteckno 3 years ago
One-third is the common definition of a remnant in other passages of the Old Testament as well.
Ezekiel 5:2 is another example of this.
jcr4runner 3 years ago
The Bible does not say what percentage of mankind is among the elect. I would say it's AT LEAST a remnant or one-third of the whole world -- but probably much more. But only God knows for sure.
In some nations, even "Egypt," the Bible says that "five out of six" will be saved.
Isaiah 19:18 "In that day five cities in the land of Egypt will speak the language of Canaan and swear by the Lord of hosts; one will be called the City of Destruction."
jcr4runner 3 years ago
Dear JC, (call me Jonathan, please!),
1.) I respect your fervor for Christ and support your ambition to change society for good by the great commission of Christ. I'm with you bro'. I also support Christian involvement in politics, etc. I take it your biblical support for a 1/3 remnant comes from Zechariah 13:8. Is this correct? Well that seems to indicate that that particular remnant will be refined with fire. Is this how the bible discribes Christian sanctification?
snotbog1 3 years ago
2.) I agree that there will be fire at the bema seat that will purge us of works of stubble etc. but is Zech 13:8 referring to that? Of course not. Read vs 1: " "On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity." You are confused because you have highjacked the verses that refer to Israel and have applied them (wrongly) to the church
snotbog1 3 years ago
3.) I think the words "Inhabitants of Jerusalem" mean: "Inhabitants of Jerusalem". The bible is replete with the descriptions of the last days. It is not one of a glorious work of the church Christianizing the planet but rather a day of utter darkness; a day in which even the church falls into apostasy; a day where the Babylon church and the Anti-christ will "overcome the saints".
snotbog1 3 years ago
Israel is the Old Covenant church.
I do not advocate "replacement theology" that the church has replaced nation of Israel under the New Covenant. Most of the promises made specifically to Israel have come on the church -- "the new Israel of God" Galatians 6:16.
In order to fully receive the promises of God, ethnic Jews must accept the messiah, Jesus of Nazareth, as their King and Savior. Then the same promises that apply to the church, the new Israel of God, apply to the Jews.
jcr4runner 3 years ago
So in short I agree that Zech. 18:8 refers to ethnic Israel under the New Covenant at the time of Jesus and the coming of the kingdom of God, not in a future "millennial reign" in which the kingdom of God is delayed.
jcr4runner 3 years ago
ON THE FINAL APOSTASY
You don't understand postmillennialism.
Postmil DOES teach a future apostasy, but it occurs AFTER the millennium is drawing to a close at the very end of history after Christ has ruled over the nations for a long time and has transformed the hearts of nations (Rev. 20).
Rev. 20 does not say exactly what percentage of the earth will be among the rebellion. The postmil view teaches that it will be brief and unsuccessful -- not a long slow decline into an era of darkness.
jcr4runner 3 years ago
O.K. but it is clear in Rev and replete elseware that a worldwide apostacy will happen before the return of Christ. My goodness, chapter 6-18 describe this dark event before the return of Christ in ch 19. Chapter 19 then starts out with the words "After these things.." (Ater what things?-tribulation) Then Christ (not the church) is pictured defeating the armies of the world. The apostacy you refer to in ch 20 is a seperate event sperated by 1000 years. This is the plain reading of the text.
snotbog1 3 years ago
Apostasy (not "apostacy").
So there will be TWO great apostasies?
There will be one apostasy prior to the Second Coming and then one after 1000 years of peace and love in the actual physical presence of the ascended Christ?
jcr4runner 3 years ago
Yes, Christ will be present during the millenium but not all will be "honky dory". Isaiah 65 says concerning this time: "For the youth will die at the age of one hundred and the one who does not reach the age of one hundred will be thought accursed."
Although life will be extended, death will still happen. And even though Christ will be physically present and Satan will be locked up, sin will still be present. Again, this is the plain reading of the text as I read it.
snotbog1 3 years ago
Do you believe that the raptured (resurrected) saints will also be present in this earthly fallen and sinful kingdom?
Or will they be in heaven awaiting the end of the millennium?
jcr4runner 3 years ago
I believe the will, but in glorified bodies. The details of Christ's government isn't totally spelled out in scripture. Perhaps the "raptured" saints will have some charge over judicial and administrating in this millenial period. Of course, as glorified saints, they will not sin. To what extent God will shield them from sinful acts of others, I don't know. Jude says Christ will return with 10,000s of His "saints" to execute judgement. There too we see glorified saints with mortal sinners.
snotbog1 3 years ago
Have you ever thought this through?
This is the first idea that made me doubt dispensationalism.
You would have saints in glorified bodies living with saints in corruptible bodies together with unconverted sinners in a corruptible world.
The mortals living during this time will marry, have children die at an old age.
Will the glorified saints be able to marry mortal saints?
How will they interact?
What happens to the saints who die? Will they be in heaven without the presence Jesus?
jcr4runner 3 years ago
Yes, there will be physical people that enter into the millenium, although they live to an age like that before the flood. To what extent the translated saints will interact with those on earth, like I said, I don't know. Biblically, men have interacted with angelic beings so I have know problem with this. The world will still have corruption, but not like the present because Satan will be bound and Christ will be present. Regarding marriage, Jesus made it clear that those in heaven do not marry
snotbog1 3 years ago
I don't believe that earthly saints will die during the millenium, only those who are rebellious. They will go to Hades and be resurrected at the end of the millenium to be judged before the great white throne. Then death and Hades will be throne together into the lake of fire. This is the order I read in Rev 20. Unless the context demands otherwise, reading the text in order suits me.
snotbog1 3 years ago
This is the reason I am a preterist and a postmillennialist. Otherwise, there are two Great Apostasies, two Armageddons, two (or even three!) Second Comings.
Postmil interprets biblical texts with fewest difficulties.
John Jefferson Davis said it best in his book, Christ's Victorious Kingdom. All eschatological systems are presented with biblical texts that are difficult to explain, but postmillennialism has the LEAST amount of difficulties.
jcr4runner 3 years ago
We'll we agree that all bible "systems" have difficulties. I of course think Premill has the least diffulties. Do you think the church apostasied in the dark ages? If so, I'd say you have more than one as well. Dispy's don't view Rev 20 (God/Magog) as Armageddon, so we have only one. We see the tribulation time as one coming of Christ, albeit in two phases accomplishing different aspects of His return. The Jews stumbled here too seeing only one messianic coming predicted in prophetic scripture.
snotbog1 3 years ago
Dispensationalism teaches, in effect, THREE Second Comings: the coming of Christ for the saints at the rapture; the coming of Christ to the earth at the end of the seven year tribulation; and the Father's coming at the end of the millennium.
jcr4runner 3 years ago
Dispesationalism teaches a rapture before (or during) the tribulation and the second coming after the tribulation; 2 phases of one event. Again, the old testament makes referrences to Jesus coming as a servent and as a king right in the same context. Nobody understood a first and second coming. That said, it isn't outside of the "pale" for God have two stages in one event. Especially considering how the first is secret and the second visible. Not sure where you get a third coming by the Father?
snotbog1 3 years ago
By preterist, may I assume you're a "partial"?
Please tell me yes.......
snotbog1 3 years ago
Yes. I don't use partial preterist as a term. It's just preterism. Heretical "consistent preterism" doesn't exist in academic circles -- only on the Internet where there is room for every bizarre theory imaginable. Orthodox preterism has a number of credible scholars who defend it.
jcr4runner 3 years ago
Again, to interpret this as present "Jews" coming to faith in Christ does no justice to a "plain" reading of the text. It refers to the House of David, the inhabitants of Jerusalem. You say that Zech 13 is ethnic Israel. O.K. Then how is it that you use the 1/3 remnent in the same chapter to refer to 2+ billion people saved on earth as a result of the preaching of the gospel? Do you see how random your theology gets? You take that piece and apply it there and take that piece and apply it there.
snotbog1 3 years ago
I agree that ethnic Jews come to salvation by faith in Jesus (Messiah) and that is happening individualistically at the present. Romans 9-11 is key here. Paul says that God is not finished with Israel and that they will be saved in a day. I do feel you still confuse Old Testament nation promises with the church as it is today (since the cross). The church is in a "sense" spiritual Israel but this does not nullify God's promises to the ethnic nation Israel (Rom 11)
snotbog1 3 years ago
Jonathan writes: I do feel you still confuse Old Testament nation promises with the church as it is today.
**************
Since you prefer a plain reading of the text. How do you interpret Galatians 3:13,14 --
Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree") that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
jcr4runner 3 years ago
jcr4runner: Your a brother in Christ, no doubt, but your theology is just not scriptural. Postmillenialism is not taught in scripture. Were are never commanded to start a theocracy. Christ's message was one of saving indiduals that were chosen as Hid sheep, not restructuring society into some kind of theocracy. Rome tried that. The bible clearly states that times will wax worse and worse before Christ's second coming. He and He only will be the one to ussure in a rule of God on earth.
snotbog1 4 years ago
Do you believe that the Great Commision will fail in history? Do you not believe that the nations of men will turn to Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit?
Do you believe that the Lord of the universe, the Holy Spirit Himself, can be so easily defeated by men?
Men who are saved and changed by God change everything around them, including their society.
Those great men of old, those great reformers who were burned at the stake and grinded into dust truly changed the world.
theweakarefree 4 years ago
Response to theweakarefree:
1.)Great commission said to make disciples of every nation, not make every person of every nation disciples
2.)I believe the scripture in Matt 24 that says Christ will seperate the nations when He returns
3.)No, but it will be Christ Himself who is victorious over the nations in the end, not man. Christ said rhetorically: "When I return, will I find faith on the earth?"
I believe that Christians can change society and I support it. Post-mill goes beyond this.
snotbog1 3 years ago
Dear Snot,
1. Postmil teaches that a remnant will be saved. A biblical remnant is 1/3. If 2.6 billion people were committed Christians, that would revolutionize the world.
2. Postmil teaches judgment both within history and at the end.
3. Cont.
jcr4runner 3 years ago
3. Samuel Adams said:
"He who sets up and pulls down, confines or extends empires at his pleasure, generally, if not always, carries on his work with instruments apparently unfit for the great purpose, but which in his hands are always effectual ... God does the work, but not without instruments, and they who are employed are denominated as his servants; no king, nor kingdom was ever destroyed by a miracle which effectually excluded the agency of second causes ...
jcr4runner 3 years ago
3. Cont.
We may affect humility in refusing to be made the instruments of Divine vengeance, but the good servant will execute the will of his master. Samuel will slay Agag; Moses, Aaron, and Hur will pray in the mountain, and Joshua will defeat the Canaanites."
jcr4runner 3 years ago
4.)Your a brother and I respect you but your theology is wrong. I love the Reformers and study them but they didn't understand the Eschatological biblical teachings concerning Israel and the church. They read all that through an anti-Roman, anti-Pope, and yes an anti-Semetic framework. I know you won't agree. This is not the right format to iron out these theological differences. Let's not divide on this. You're my brother and I love you. God bless...
snotbog1 3 years ago
Cromwell, Whitefield, Hodge and many other Reformed postmillennial Christians have believed that the conversion of Israel (ethnic Jews) was key to the fulfillment of the Great Commission.
I agree it's not good to divide, but hurling charges of anti-semitism in postmillennial theology doesn't help.
jcr4runner 3 years ago
I just listed the Reformed greats who I know off the top of my head wrote hopefully about the Jews. There re many others.
I believe God has a plan for Jews, Roman Catholic nations, Muslims, Hindus, pagans, western humanist "Protestants," atheists -- a great harvest of believers from every nation under heaven.
Premils are the ones who are most pessimistic about the total number of the elect.
jcr4runner 3 years ago
Yes, but the promise went through Isaac. God has a future plan for Israel yet unfulfilled. If you believe in God's predestinal election than you can't throw out God's election of Israel. My daddy once told me, if God can break His promises to Israel, who's to say He can't break them to us as well.
Premill's pessimssism rest on man's inabilty. The same is said for much of Postmill's optimism. Premill's says that in the end, it will be Christ alone who puts down an evil world, not man.
snotbog1 3 years ago
In the same way that it is impossible for a man to save himself, it is impossible for men to reform a fallen world. But all things are possible with Christ.
We may disagree about how to interpret secific promises and prophecies to Israel in the Old Testament.
The BIG question is:
Did Christ give the Great Commission knowing
the church would fail and that Israel ("another church") would fufill it AFTER the Second Coming and the rapture?
In a nutshell that is what dispensationalism teaches.
jcr4runner 3 years ago
I think you're misunderstanding the great commision which says,"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations." You seem to confuse the "visible" church with the "true IN-visible" church. Christ's commission involved the invisible church of individuals from all nations who would be chosen as His sheep. This commission is being accomplished and will be accomplished. A visible apostacy that will take place before Christ's return will not nullify Christ's great commission.
snotbog1 3 years ago
You agree that the Great Commission will be fulfilled.
Is this a "Save as many as you can on a sinking ship" Great Commission?
Or is it a Great Commission in which Christians are taught to "obey all that I have commanded you"?
If it is the latter, then how does this obedience affect the society surrounding the people of God prior to this apostasy?
Does society steadily get worse as the number of obedient Christians increases?
Do these Christians act as salt and light and in the society?
jcr4runner 3 years ago
I don't think the great commission is a quota system(numbers must continually increase.) Of course I support increase. But I think the gospel was an expanse by location, not numbers. All people groups would have the gospel preached to them. But a continual increase of numbers doesn't seem to coincide with statements like the rhetorical statement of Jesus when He said, "When I return, will I find faith on earth?". I think I Tim 3:1-8 and II Tim 4:3-4 support this apastasy in the end times.
snotbog1 3 years ago
"Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?"
The question is demonstrative rather than interrogative, that is, the answer is not "yes" or "no." The question concludes the parable as a rhetorical device. We as Christians must pray in faith and never grow weary. We are commanded by our Lord to pray even if the answer to prayer is late in coming, even until the time when the Son of Man returns to the earth.
jcr4runner 3 years ago
Jesus said, "When the Son of man returns, will he find faith on earth?"
I've always found that to be an amazing example of an out-of-context objection. You interpret it to mean that Jesus will not find ANY faith on the earth when he returns?
But the context is the parable of the unjust judge. Postmillennialists don't interpret Luke 18:8 in the negative. The whole context of this parable is that it is to demonstrate that we always ought to pray in faith and never to grow weary of praying.
jcr4runner 3 years ago
Yes, Jesus addressed persistent prayer and then interupted with the word, "HOWEVER". The implication seems to imply an opposite or change of direction of what was just being described (perhaps I'm wrong). I believe this statement eludes to a faithless church in the end times, not that there will be no people of faith at all. Like the Jewish day, the day of the Lord is one that starts with darkness. You say post-mill best fits biblically but the verses against it are practically countless.
snotbog1 3 years ago
Again, your focus on the "sinking ship" is in the wrong place. That "ship" is the exterior outward church system. The "true church" is made up of individuals from all of these world structures (denominations). So you're either/or has a built in fallacy which make it unaswerable. I do think true Christians will effect society for the good. I'm not a spiritual isalationist (privatization of belief). I support your desire to bring the Christian voice to the public arena. Go for it!!
snotbog1 3 years ago
Then here is the question:
If we are successful in fulfilling the Great Commission, we would expect to see a gradual increase in the PERCENTAGE of Christians in the world population. That is true in history and especially in the last half of the 20th century.
If this increase of obedient Christians results in societal reformation, then why would we expect to see society grow worse and worse?
Barring a final BRIEF apostasy, I don't see the logic or scriptural support for that scenario.
jcr4runner 3 years ago
The key is that I was NOT hurtling anti-semeticism charges at "YOU" but only saying that there was an anti-semetic flavor to much of the writings of the Reformers. I'm not saying they had zero love for the Jews and that they didn't desire that the Jews accept Christ but that many of them had an anti-semetic tone. This is not at all hard to prove, their writing show this. Would you like quotes?? I love the Reformers as much as you do. I'm presently attending a reformed church.(non-dispensational)
snotbog1 3 years ago
He seems to have two arguments "Well, if there was not christianity, then there would be something else" and "there will always be some intolerance".
The first statement seems to almost backfire... Is he arguing that the only reason we should follow the christian law is be cause it happens to be more popular, that there is no actual reason besides chance?
For the second argument:
There will always be some murder too, but that does not jutify expanding it.
Jakemmx 4 years ago
The first argument is that someone with some philosophy is going to rule. If you are a Christian, you obviously prefer a Christian with a biblical philosophy. But someone or something is going to rule.
The second argument has to do with there ALWAYS being some level of intolerance. If not, then you are intolerant of intolerant people.
We don't tolerate Nazis and the Ku Klux Klan, therefore we are intolerant of intolerance.
jcr4runner 4 years ago
Well you're right. You are intolerant. Here we have it laid out at last. You are actually saying explicitly that you can't be a good American and a good Christian at the same time. Do away with the establishment clause, free speech, and freedom of religion. I'll defend your right to espouse this hate filled bullshit but fight you on any attempt to make this garbage into law.
trollunderthebridge 4 years ago
Satanists are allowed to sacrifice children?
Wow!!That's a lot of freedom.
unleashy18 4 years ago
I don't trust that statement, its too good to be true and to easy to swallow. Only an overconfident fly can swing close to the web, pushing her luck and get caught.
Exsecrabilis 4 years ago
You should feel ashamed by playing off the emotions of Americans agonizing for political change. What a trully Christian thing to do. I love how this guy shrugs off the accusations of enforcing no public worship of "false" gods as being intolerant, yet, would play the intolerance card for a push to teach intelligent design.
davidjakewillis 4 years ago
Nice a new Taliban!
evilliberal 4 years ago
LOL. Love how he tries to explain away that the OT demands execution of folks who proselytize for false gods. One very effective way to solve Hari Krishnas bothering you at the Airports.
JonWRowe 5 years ago
The Old Testament does demand the execution of idolaters. The question he is answering is not whether he thinks this was a just law. It is God's Law and it is just. The question is whether it is applicable under the New Covenant we have today in Christ.
jcr4runner 5 years ago