@MysticalCity "what Jesus meant was do not show anyone the same respect as you do to God.Jesus also says call no no one, teacher, and no one good, LITERALLY? no."
ANSWER: You are WAY WAY off base. I suggest you read Matthew Chapter 23 again. Jesus used the example of the Pharisees who loved to be seen in high places. The description, and many other places in the bible, makes it clear that your Pope fits the description to a T. I will not argue again. See all of my previous posts here.
@davidrstarr no thanks, you can believe what you want, however there is only ONE true meaning, all these things, call no man father, Jesus having brothers etc..and other garbage, started after martin luther opened the floodgates for self interpretation of the bible, and now you are one of 40,000 sects preaching a false gospel started after luther, congratulations self made bible scholar.
@MysticalCity: "so how exactly was the CC trying to "hide" the scriptures "
ANSWER: It is a very well known fact that is extensively documented in history that the Catholic church prevented the common people from reading the Bible or learning Latin. When the reformers tried to make it available that church burnt people at the stake. Please read Foxes Book of Martyrs for the gruesome details of the Inquisitions carried out by the Catholic "church"
@davidrstarr The Catholic Church was preaching the gospel, how do you think the church fathers became saints? and the people like St.Augustine became saints? they went to Church! it was the only church around back then, you might want to read(The Fathers know best) for true early church history, and quotes from the church fathers themselves. The CC killing millions is a lie from the pit of hell, Everyone back then was Catholic, Saint Peter[1st Pope] was crucified in Rome--
@davidrstarr and Saint Paul was beheaded in Rome, what are you going to say? The CC killed them?! i hope you realize the roman empire is not the same as the Roman Catholic Church, many Popes after St.Peter were martyred.
@MysticalCity : James was a bisexual sodomite politician by the way, ANSWER: False: James was married to QueenAnne of denmark after a steamy romance. Together, they had 7 children. It would have been 12, but 2 were still births and 3 were miscarriages. During James reign he had to eject Stillwell from the King's court. 25 Years after James' death, he exacted revenge by starting a rumour that James was homosexual. It has never been proven or documented.
The english version of the Bible came out decades before the corrupt king james version, (Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible) ANSWER: Partly correct. There were 7 English versions including the final KJV. jThe KJV is by no means corrupt.
@MysticalCity: all documented historical fact" from who martin luther? an ex-catholic monk who liked a nun? ANSWER: You are confusing me with Protestants.
@MysticalCity: Pope Damasus commissioned Saint Jerome to translate the bible to Latin, [WHICH WAS THE MOST COMMON LANGUAGE BACK THEN] CORRECT:ANSWER: This is the manuscript that Erasmus found to be corrupt. Simultaneously, Greek manuscripts were being used. the Latin Vulgate bible was in use for 1500 years! ANSWER: By the Roman Catholic church.
@davidrstarr Saint Jerome's manuscripts corrupt? r u kidding me? he had the closest thing to the originals! and we don't have them today, Compare Luke 1:28 from the Douay-Rheims Bible to any other Bible and you will see corruption! did i say james was a homosexual? i said bisexual, i don't think you understand what this means? he can still love his wife ya know? foxes book on martyrs, garbage 0% reliable history, read Seven lies about Catholic History, then will talk.
@MysticalCity I would like to clarify a previous statement. The early Christians referred to the Christian church as "Catholic" (universal). However, it was during the reign of Constantine in Rome that the Christian doctrine started to become corrupt. (eg praying to statues, repititons on the rosary, pray to the Queen of heaven, purgatory etc). This corrupt church is what I refer to as the present day "Roman Catholic" church, which s NOT a Biblical New Testament church.
@AmericanBerean: "My point is you are accepting an extra-biblical tradition to tell you these things."
ANSWER: Wrong. I am trusting a intra-Biblical source to tell me the Bible is the only Word of God; the Bible itself! It is the only book in the world that can claim complete inerrancy of prophecy. Only the inspired Word of God can do that. YOU are trusting in an extra-Biblical "authority" by trustung in fallible men to claim authority over you. You are trusting in a man-made religion.
@AmericanBerean: Also, please realize that I am NOT making a case of Baptist vs Catholic. I am making a case of Bible (Jesus) vs Catholic. I just happen to be in a local non-hierarchical New Testament church that happens to be Baptist. I stay because only the Bible is preached, and not the traditions of men.
@AmericanBerean I will read "This Baptist History" by E. Wayne Thompson. I wonder if it's kindled...
ANSWER: I do not know if it is Kindled. However, please keep in mind that I am not trying to make a case that there is some "Royal" Apostolic lineage here. Jesus is the head of the church, not a lineage of people or popes. This was given only for your information in response to a question.
@AmericanBeran: It is also highlyu doubtful that the Catholic church can be traced to the NT since it was a state, government ruled "church" started by Constantine in the 300s AD. This is why it has such a carnal bureaucracy since it was created bvia secularism. It is also wht there are so many pagan rituals.
@davidrstarr how was the Catholic Church started by constantine when, church fathers and saints mentioned 'The Catholic Church" before 300 AD? would you like quotes? The CC put The Holy Bible together, The CC came before the Bible, do you know who translated the Bible into the vernacular tongue? It took 400 years to compile the Bible and another 1000 for the printing press, how did people back then get their info? by going to the CC.
@MysticalCity how was the Catholic Church started by constantine when, church fathers and saints mentioned 'The Catholic Church" before 300 AD? would you like quotes?
@MysticalCity The Hebrews put the OT together. The NT the CC put together is corrupt and uses different manuscripts than that used by Christians. This was evidenced when Erasmus first compared the Greek texts to the corrupt Latin texts used by the CC. The CC uses the Alexandrian manuscripts and the Christian Bible (KJV) uses the Byzantine texts-two different Bibles, In addition, the CC uses the Septuigent as the OT. The Hebrews reject this. The KJV uses the Masoretic original Hebrew texts.
@MysticalCity It took 400 years to compile the Bible and another 1000 for the printing press, how did people back then get their info? by going to the CC.
There were many other New Testament peoples that ran parrallel to the CC. The manuscripts from the KJV comes from their texts, NOT the CC. These peoples were never part of the Catholic "church". In fact, many of these peoples were hunted, burned and hung by several Catholic popes for refusing to accept the heretical doctrines.
@MysticalCity how did people back then get their info? by going to the CC.
As mentioned in my other posts, there were Christians that were never part of the CC or broke away in the first centuries when they corrupted Christian doctrine. They have maintained our texts and was the source for Biblical teaching.
@MysticalCity how did people back then get their info? by going to the CC.
The Catholic "church" prevented and made unlawful the reading of their "Bible". Anyone caught reading it or translating it were burned at the stake. Bloody Mary, a Catholic, was a more prominent example of the inquisitions. The Catholic church attempted for centuries to keep the word of God from the people. This is all documented historical fact..
@davidrstarr your completely ignorant beyond belief its depressing, after the books were chosen by the Catholic Church ,Pope Damasus commissioned Saint Jerome to translate the bible to Latin, [WHICH WAS THE MOST COMMON LANGUAGE BACK THEN] the Latin Vulgate bible was in use for 1500 years! since you like to talk nonsense and think you know history, The printing press was invented in the 1440's and guess what was the first book printed? The Latin Vulgate Bible
@MysticalCity "your completely ignorant beyond belief its depressing", "where do you get your info from? wikipedia? youtube videos?"
ANSWER: I can see you are intolerant of other viewpoints and you have a very derogatory and rude method of communcating. No, I do not get my information from You Tube or Wikipedia. Nonetheless, this has gone on far beyond my initial conversation regarding calling men father. I do not have time to live here. I wish you the best living your Catholic relligion.
@davidrstarr How ignorant of scripture are you? St Paul refers to himself as a father,and what was Abraham? Father of nations, what Jesus meant was do not show anyone the same respect as you do to God.Jesus also says call no no one, teacher, and no one good, LITERALLY? no. BTW the king james bible has more errors in it then my college math midterm(got 20%) I hope one day you find out the truth before spreading nonsense and hurting yourself.
@davidrstarr "all documented historical fact" from who martin luther? an ex-catholic monk who liked a nun?
and here is this for history, The english version of the Bible came out decades before the corrupt king james version, (Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible) james was a bisexual sodomite politician by the way, its no wonder his wife became Catholic, so how exactly was the CC trying to "hide" the scriptures when they translated it to english before the protestant bible?(king James)
@davidrstarr one more thing, did you know that the james version of the bible copied the new testament from the Douay-Rheims?(about 90%, removed a few words they didn't like)where do you get your info from? wikipedia? youtube videos? very very reliable sources! you might want to research something yourself once in a while, The CC was the only church up until the reformation,(well the orthodox started in 1054) thanks to martin luther we now hve over 40,000 sects claiming their correct.
@MysticalCity,To say the Roman Catholic Church put the Bible together is not true. It was the Universal Church, not exclusively the Church of Rome. There were pastors in attendance from the British/Celtic Church as well as from all over Christendom. You have a distorted view of history. Pope-worship is idolatry. Emperor (and mass-murderer) Phocas conferred the title of Universal Bishop in 606AD. The Papacy gave up the right to be called a "Church" with the Donation of Pepin.
@Islandretreat you are clearly ignorant, did i say The RCC??? no i said The Catholic Church, that's true history, The RCC is The Vatican today, every Catholic church back then was under communion to the bishop of Rome AKA The Pope, if you were not, then you were not Catholic, The Catholic Church determined The Canon of scripture, And Catholics(The First Christians) do not worship the Pope, you are clearly ignorant, your not even qualified to debate this topic.
@MysticalCity, "your not even qualified to debate this topic"
The word is "you're" and I've just informed you that the primacy of Rome was unheard of in 325AD. What gives the Papal Ceasar ("Pope") the sole right to infallibly interpret Scripture? I'm just as qualified as any papist.
@Islandretreat actually your not, that right goes exclusively to The Catholic Church, The Catholic Church came before the Bible. Private interpretation of scripture is forbidden by the bible itself (2 St. Peter 1:20)
Some people misinterpret scripture to their own condemnation (2 St. Peter 3:16)
"What gives the Papal Ceasar ("Pope") the sole right to infallibly interpret Scripture? I'm just as qualified as any papist."
I don't think so. Jesus said the HS would guide the apostles and the church which He built. You are not Christ's church all by yourself. Everyone interprets scripture differently. Protestants claim, just like you, that they alone are guided by the HS yet not one is united in a common belief. Scripture is quite clear about having one mind, one faith.
@Islandretreat - "I've just informed you that the primacy of Rome was unheard of in 325AD" -
Rubbish. One of the Apostolic Fathers, Clement of Rome, was a desciple of Peter. He was also the 4th pope. There are writings of his that go back to the very late 1st Century, where he exerts papal primacy over the bishops of the early Church.
- "What gives the Papal Ceasar ("Pope") the sole right to infallibly interpret Scripture?" -
He doesn't. You don't understand papal infallibilty.
@TenderTrap86, I couldn't help but notice you ignored the fact the 6th and 7th canons recognise the authority of the other Churches. The title of "Universal Bishop" was conferred on Boniface III by imperial decree in 606AD, by Emperor (and mass murderer) Phocas.
@Islandretreat "I've just informed you that the primacy of Rome was unheard of in 325AD" -
Rubbish. One of the Apostolic Fathers, Clement of Rome, was a desciple of Peter. He was also the 4th pope. There are writings of his that go back to the very late 1st Century, where he exerts papal primacy over the bishops of the early Church.
- "What gives the Papal Ceasar ("Pope") the sole right to infallibly interpret Scripture?" -
He doesn't. You don't understand papal infallibilty.
@Islandretreat The hard nut for Protestants to crack is the fact that the Catholic Church determined the canon of Scripture at regional councils in A.D. 382, 393 and 397. Even your own Protestant apologists recognize the same. Why don't you?The Catholic Church translated the original copies during the first centuries of the Church and throughout the Middle Ages. She also made the Scriptures available in the vernacular so all could read them. Study your history.
@MysticalCity At Nicaea in 325 the primacy of Rome was unheard of, the 6th and 7th canons recognise the authority of the Churches of Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem & others. The early Christian Church was in Jerusalem, not Rome? The Church of Rome was instrumental in determining canon but bear in mind Diocletian's persecution. My own country was behind Hadrian's Wall, the Romans were trying to exterminate us. The Bible comes from the writers. The Apocrypha was "inspired" at the Council of Trent.
@Islandretreat The 73 books were always part of the canon since the beginning of the regional councils(Carthage and Rome) and reinstated at Councils of Florence and Trent. I can give you many Church Fathers quotes using these books. Protestants arguing these books are not inspired is just plain nonsense, who in the world is anyone to say if they are? The Catholic Church is the final authority period.
@Islandretreat "The church of God which sojourns at Rome to the church of God which sojourns at Corinth ... But if any disobey the words spoken by him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger." Clement of Rome, Pope, 1st Epistle to the Corinthians, 1,59:1 (c. A.D. 96).
@AmericanBerean: "why do you believe it (inserted-The Bible)alone is the revealed Word of God? "
ANSWER: Because through the inerrancy of Bible prophecy which has been fulfilled time and time again, I am convinced that the Bible is the INSPIRED word of God. Extra-Biblical sources, although many times useful, are NOT inspired and are written by fallible men. It must be checked against the Final Authority-The Bible.
@AmericanBeran: It has become abundantly clear to me that you are defending the Catholic religion and your traditions. What you do not understand is that I am not religious. I am not a Baptist. I am a Christian who uses the Bible as my final authority, not the traditions of men.
@davidrstarr OK, you trust only in the Bible as God's revealed Word. But why do you believe it alone is the revealed Word of God? Why only those 66 books? Why not 73? How do you know Matthew wrote that Gospel? My point is you are accepting an extra-biblical tradition to tell you these things. That's not necessarily bad. Judge the tradition by it's source. Apostolic Tradition tells us what composes the Bible. Therefore we trust it as God's word.
@AmericanBeran: You seem to conclude that since I see myself as a priest and a minister (the correct Biblical fact) that I do not take guidance from Pastors or other Biblical Christians. I would definitely be extremely fallible if this were true. We have regular discourse on numerous Scriptural topics and Bible studies on a regular basis. When many are agreed using scripture we are much less vulnerable to heresies. however, we do not accept edicts and proclamations from a distant sinner.
@American Berean "Can you show me the Baptist Church's continuous history to NT times?"
There are numerous works on this topic. One comprehensive treatise is "This Baptist History" by E. Wayne Thompson. Bob Jones University Press. Nonetheless,the lineage of this body of believers it is not really important to my worship. I provide this only because you ask. However, many of their bones are below the vatican where they were buried after being burnt at the stake by Popes (Innocent, for one).
@American Berean: "Can you show me the Baptist Church's continuous history to NT times?"
ANSWER: I brought up my local Baptist church only in answer to your statement that I follow a Protestant tradition. Baptists are not protestant since they were never part of the Catholic church. I am not a Baptist. However, my local church preaches from the Bible only. As a Berean, I only accept that which can be proven true Biblically. In my experience, it is a rare event this doesn't happen.
@AmericanBerean "Christ said "I will build my Church" He meant the universal one."
y and NO man in between.
Once again, the church is a body of believers that report to Christ. The church is a FLAT organization where all report to Christ equally. There can be several local bodies of believers, but there is no hierarchy or any man in between.
@AmericanBerean Christ said "I will build my Church" He meant the universal one. Both usages occur throughout NT. So, our respective interpretational traditions determine the meaning. My tradition goes back 2000 years. Yours goes back 500 years. Which, then, is more likely Apostolic in origin?
ANSWER: Christ built his church upon himself ("The Rock"). I am NOT using a tradition. I am quoting the Bible. The church is in NO way a physical structure or bureaucracy of men. Christ is the head.
@davidrstarr I can see you are sincere in your love for Jesus, but you are sincerely wrong in your interpretation of Scripture. You ARE following a tradition of interpretation, the Protestant tradition. I am following a tradition of interpretation, the Catholic Tradition. From what I've learned, the Catholic Tradition makes more sense.
There is no man between me and Jesus... Pope and priest and Apostolic Tradition all enhance my relationship, not hinder it. Sola Scriptura leads to misinterpret.
@AmericanBerean "You ARE following a tradition of interpretation, the Protestant tradition."
I am following the Bible. I am a member of a Baptist church, but these were never part of the Catholic church. They can be traced back to NT times. Baptists are NOT Protestants. I do not consider myself a Baptist. I do consider much of what is preached to be Biblical. Like you, I am a Berean,. I reject anything I believe contradicts the Bible. This does not happen real often.
@davidrstarr Jesus was proved to be the heir of David by His lineage and RCC can demonstrate it's Apostolicity by its lineage. Can you show me the Baptist Church's continuous history to NT times?
You follow the Bible. That's a good attitude, but remember, you are fallible. I recognize my own fallibility so I accept guidance in interpretation by someone who was there when the Gospel was new: the Church Christ founded. It's lineage is part of it's credentials and the Spirit guides it infallibly.
@AmericanBerean "There is no man between me and Jesus". I completely agree.
"Pope and priest and Apostolic Tradition all enhance my relationship," Pastors, Missionaries, visiting Pastors, and other members of my local congregation all enhance my experience of Christ. So, we are in agreement here.
"Sola Scriptura leads to mis-interpretation." Yes, it can. But the personal relationship with Christ is preserved.
Believe it pple Catholic is the only true church found by Jesus Christ and Apostle Peter 2000 years ago and if u don't believe it, bad luck, yr just blind like everyone else by the truth. Catholic made the bble and because stupid pple copy it and made like their own and they twist to make the Catholic look bad to the world..I know 4 a fact our faith is the only true faith...God bless...
Is that picture John Martignoni???? Kidding, but it really looks like him. Check out CrimsonCatholic's channel (some of his vids are over there-> ) and you'll see what I mean...
The author of the video uses the rich man and Lazaraeth story to justify calling men father other than our Heavenly Father. In this story, the rich man is in Hell and calls Abraham father. I do not think this is a good example since the rich man was in Hell!
@haojiesheng I would have to watch the video again to answer your question. However, the Catholic church calls their priests father. The Bible tells us that ALL Christians are priests and ministers, not men ordained by other men. You can read this in Revelation 5:6 and 1:10. Anyone who has accepted Jesus as their Saviour is a priest (has access to the throne of God). Therefore, we are all brethren. No man is the Spiritual father of any Christian. He is a brother if he has accepted Christ.
@davidrstarr. AMEN!! The RCC has twisted Matt 23:9. Either that or the RCC hasnt read this verse.The RCC causes so much confusion and mockery, that's why I left. I dont pray the rosary anymore, and bcuz of this Jesus wont send me to hell. He has saved me.
@bornagainsaint1 It is very clear from the entire chapter of Matthew 23 that no man is over us spiritually except our heavenly father, especially the Pope who loves to be seen in public being praised and glorified above all men. This was Jesus chief complaint against the hypocritical Pharisee sect who loved to look pious and be admired by others. Also, Matthew 6:7 tells us to not use vain repetitions in "prayer" as the HEATHEN do. Together with numerous other verses, the rosary is a heresy.
@davidrstarr and it is followed by the statement that "she must be silent." The word silence means being possessed by a calmness of spirit and peaceful disposition. It is set as the opposite to "teaching" and "having authority over a man." (compare with Titus 2:3-5 and 2 Tim. 1:5; 3:14,15). He states that they cannot teach or have authority over men. Thus, they cannot have a pastoral position, or perform the pastoral function, for that puts them in authority over men.
@JOAOBUNITAO Your commentary about "women remaining silent" in the church: I agree with everything you have said. However, I am not sure what statement I made that you are responding to. It has been a while since I visited this site. I only happened on it by happenstance.
@bornagainsaint1 PART TWO: In addition, we should pray that those who follow heresies receive wisdom from the Holy Spirit and that those who glorify men have their eyes open to see that only Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, NO MAN cometh to the father but by him (John 14:6), not a church, not sacraments, not a priest, not a pope. JESUS is the source of our salvation.
@haojiesheng Also, getting back to the rich man and Lazareth, the rich man was in Hell because he never accepted Jesus as his Saviour. He had depended on the laws of Abraham (his father). Abraham could not save anyone. Only Jesus can save us by his shed blood on the cross. Abraham was a man and a sinner just like you, I, Lazareth and the rich man. This also includes the Pope and any Catholic "priest".
@haojiesheng II Corinthians 6:4 (KJV): "But in all things approving ourselves as the MINISTERS OF GOD". All men who have accepted Jesus as their Saviour are ministers (servants) of God, not just a man ordained Catholic priest who is a sinner in need of salvation just like the rest of us.
@davidrstarr He was in Sheol, I think, not Gehenna. English uses "Hell" for both. Sheol was Abraham's Bosom/Paradise/Limbo and was where the dead awaited Jesus. He descended to there and brought the righteous to Heaven. Gehenna is the Hell of eternal damnation. (In Jewish tradition there were 7 levels of hell, from Sheol to Gehenna.) This parable supports the doctrine of Purgatory as well as the "father" issue.
@AmericanBerean I agree that we should all be Bereans.. I agree that the OT uses Sheol in the original Hebrew and Hades, Gehenna and Tartara (Jude) in the NT. I also agree that the OT saints were in Sheol (Paradise, Abraham's Bosom-not Heaven) and that they were released after the resurrection. The rich man was separated from Abraham and Lazarus by a great gulf and he was burning in Hell. He was calling Abraham father. Only our Father in heaven is our Spiritual Father, never a man..
@davidrstarr In the Davidic dynasty (which is God's kingdom manifested on earth) the King's vicar is referred to as the people's father Isaiah22:21. This supports calling the pope Father, since he occupies the office of vicar.
Abraham,David,Jacob were referred to in the NT as our fathers.
Here's some homework for you: use your favorite digital bible and search for "father". You'll find that the Catholic position is 100% compatible with Scripture, when taken in context of Scripture as a whole.
@AmericanBerean You are referring to the OT covenant. David, Abraham etc where fathers to Hebrews by birth and the Jews inherited the kingdom by lineage. Christians who have accepted Jesus as their Saviour are related to Abraham, David etc only by FAITH in Jesus. This is a main point of Hebrews. .Look at 1 Timothy 1:4 and Titus 3:9. Here we see to AVOID endless genealogies. The Jews do not inherit the kingdom by lineag, it is only by faith in the GRACE of God through Jesus, just like us.
@davidrstarr OT covenant was fulfilled in Jesus. By faith in Him, we can call Abraham our father. Paul, addressing Christians in Rome (hence, surely including Gentiles) referred to Abraham as our father, 4:16. Just so, Abraham is also your spiritual father.
Genealogy is important. Jesus is proved to be King by his lineage. The Davidic dynasty which he rules features a lineage of vicars as well a Kings. That guy can Scripturally be called "father" by Christians... aka "Pope".
@AmericanBerean Yes, genealogy is important in the sense that it proves the fulfillment of a Messiah through the loins of Abraham, David etc, but it is not important for salvation. The Pope is only a MAN. He is a sinner just like us and needs Jesus to get into the kingdom.
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No, we do NOT call Abraham our Spiritual father. He is not even a paternal father. We are related to him in that we both share a faith in Jesus as our way into the kingdom. Only Jehovah is our Spiritual Father
@davidrstarr Genealogy is important for salvation because God promised the savior (anointed,messiah,christos) would be a descendant of David. That's how we know who to have faith in.
Pope=man=sinner, no one ever said otherwise. But Jesus uses sinners to shepherd the earthly side of His Kingdom. We know who the visible shepherd is by "genealogy" of the office of Peter, the first prime shepherd. Jesus told him "feed my lambs," "tend my sheep," "feed my sheep."
@AmericanBerean I agree. We have Bishops, Pastors (but not priests) etc who help guide us in the Word of God, but they are NOT our Spiritual fathers. They are men just like us and make errors. You said it yourself. We should be Bereans. The Word of God (Jesus-John 1)) is our real Spiritual guide through the Holy Spirit, not any man. We only have access to our Spirutual Father, Jehovah, through Jesus. We are priests, not just a Catholic man, which have this Spiritual access through Jesus.
@AmericanBerean Please look at the man in the video. Do you really believe he is not a sinner just like you and I. He, like us, only has access to the Spiritual Father, through Jesus. Also, the Bible tells us that ALL Christians who have accepted Jesus as their Saviour are priests and ministers. A priest is someone who has access to the throne of Jehovah through Jesus, NOT a Catholic MAN. (I Peter 2:5 KJV and Hebrews 4: 14-16 (KJV). Here we learn JESUS is our HIGH priest to Jehovah.
@davidrstarr We are indeed a "kingdom of priests". In the sense that we all have direct access to God the Father. And in the sense that we can offer sacrifices pleasing to him.
But Jesus calls only a few to share in His ministerial priesthood. At the Last Supper He instituted this priesthood when he commanded and empowered the Apostles to "do this in memory of me". They then received the grace to manifest Jesus' sacrifice as the Eucharist.
@AmericanBerean You are NOW getting into a whole new topic, the Eucharist! I am not trying to evade you, but I really must go, but I will leave you with one remark. Jesus told us to eat the bread and drink the wine in REMEMBRANCE of him. It in no way says it IS him. We are now off topic about "fathers in heaven. I will re-join later.
@AmericanBerean Hebrews tells us that ALL believers in Jesus as their Saviour are a Holy Priesthood, just just a few select men. He tells us that anyone who comes to him he wil in no wise cast out. Also, the Holy Spirit was given in the Pentacost to ALL believers, not just a select few.
@davidrstarr We are all priests but not all of us in the pastoral sense. Only a few are ordained, consecrated, for that role by the imposition of hands (Acts6:6,13:3, cf 14:23). These were called "presbyters" and "episkopos" and they exercised pastoral roles in the various communities (1Tim5:17,Jam5:14–15). They are spiritual "fathers" to the Christians (1Cor4:15,2Cor12:14,1Thess2:11). Jesus said call no man "father" in the sense of being the source of holiness and our blessings.
@AmericanBerean I do agree with your final statement that NO man is a source of holiness or blessings. I also agree that Pastors, Bishops etc are to help guide the flock. However, I will have to readand contemplate the verses you provided. Right now, very busy, but will answer later on these verses.
@AmericanBerean PART ONE OF TWO: I did look at your verses and I reviewed, once again, Matthew 23 where we are told by Jesus to "call no man father. I am afraid I have to vehemently continue to disagree with you. This very chapter is warning us against popes and "Catholic" priests (as just a few examples of Pharisees).
@davidrstarr The pope is called "Servant of the Servants of Christ". And each year he washes the feet of others. Does this seem like he's got a superiority complex? He is the antithesis of the Pharisees Jesus chastised.
Jesus is the only high priest, but we are all called priests. Just so, there is one true Master and one true Father, but others on earth can be masters and fathers, too, just not the Master or Father from whom all good things come. That is the meaning of Matt 23 in context.
@AmericanBerean: The Catholics can call him anything they want including "Holy Father" which is absolute blasphemy. There is One Holy and that is God. He can wash someone's feet once a year in public to be seen by men as being "pious" but I suggest he move out of his multi-billion dollar palace and serve like Christ. Riding around in gold chariots is NOT my idea of a servant of Christ. In addition, kissing his ring is not my idea of a servant of Christ. Nor is it Biblical.
@AmericanBerean PART TWO OF TWO:....love to be seen in high places, love to be seen of men, enlarge the borders of their garments,love the chief seats in the "synagogues. The chapter concludes with only ONE is our Master (Christ) and we are all brethren (if saved through Christ). In addition, I KNOW when the Holy Spirit is speaking to me. We should NEVER call any man father. Yes, Paul was a "father" to the churches but he was never called this by title.
@AmericanBerean The REALLY "eternally" important thing is have we accepted the free gift of heaven offered t us by Jesus when he died on the cross for our sins. (Romans 6:23, Romans 10:13 etc). That is the message (Gospel) that all Christians should be focused on and spreading it to all nations.
@davidrstarr Yes, the REALLY important thing is Jesus as our redeemer. To get people to believe and accept that is the ultimate purpose of His Church. And if that's as far as someone's faith takes them, they can still get into heaven. God knows their heart. But I believe that Christ founded a society to protect and spread His Gospel. That society He empowered to speak in His name, since He ascended, and therefore is infallible. So I am bound to obey that society in matters of faith and morals.
@AmericanBerean Amen to spreading the Gospel of Christ! Yes, the society delegated to spread that Gospel is the church. The church is a body of Born-again believers saved by the blood of Jesus. It is not a physical man-made bureaucracy.
@davidrstarr The body of Christ: You believe in the spiritual association of all believers, His Church, as do I. But I believe also in the visible, organized aspect. Both together, spiritual and visible, compose the Church, which is the Kingdom of God manifested on Earth. Jesus is the Davidic heir and David's Kingdom was God's Kingdom manifested in Earth. The kings had ministers they empowered, so also Christ empowered ministers to command in His name, with Peter as the prime minister.
@AmericanBerean Yes, I believe in BOTH the Spiritual sense and earthly Kingdom of God manifested in a body of believers on this earth. However, the Bible tells us that All born again believers are ministers (servants) of Christ Jesus is the commander and there is none in between. We are all priests all having equal access to the throne of grace. Matt 8:20 (KJV) "Where two or more are gathered together in my name so will I BE ALSO". There is no bureaucracy and it is not under Peter or a Pope.
@davidrstarr You quote Matt18:20 out of context. In context, it supports my case. Back up to verse 15. This scene is depicting an authoritative body judging a member of the congregation with the authority of Christ Himself, as indicated by verse 20. Such an authoritative body must be recognized as deriving from Christ or it is powerless.
Jesus is indeed Head and Source of all power and grace. But He DID delegate to hand-picked men His authority to judge on earth and appointed one as their leader
@AmericanBerean Yes, Matt18 is describing an assembly of a LOCAL church (body of believers) as hearing a case in church discipline. My point is that a church is LOCAL where two or more believers are gathered in the name of Jesus, NOT a distant Pope. NOT a building (eg Vatican). This same scenario occurs regularly between very few believers. NO bureaucracy is involved. It is between Christ and TWO or more believers.
@davidrstarr Yes, "church" has two meanings, local ("church") and universal ("Church"), and the context of the specific usage determines its meaning there. We just disagree on when it's universal or local. When Christ said "I will build my Church" He meant the universal one. Both usages occur throughout NT.
So, our respective interpretational traditions determine the meaning. My tradition goes back 2000 years. Yours goes back 500 years. Which, then, is more likely Apostolic in origin?
@AmericanBerean We just had a case of local church discipline between two deacons, a father and his unruly son. No Pastor was involved. The scripture was read and the child immediately understood SPIRITUALLY that he was being disciplined in the name of Christ. The BIBLE (Jesus) was the authority!
@AmericanBerean Respond to this video... "so also Christ empowered ministers to command in His name, with Peter as the prime minister."
False: Jesus is head of EVERYTHING in the BODY of the church.
Ephesians 5:23 "Even as HE is the HEAD of the church.
Col 1:18 "And HE is the HEAD of the BODY, the church, who is the Beginning, the First-born from the dead, that He may be pre-eminent IN ALL THINGS." .....".pre-eminent over ALL and ALL over ALL things".
@AmericanBerean You are missing the whole point of salvation by grace. When Abraham was asked by God to sacrifice Isaac on the altar, he had FAITH that God would provide the sacrifice-JESUS! In Hebrews we learn that like Abraham, Christians also have faith that the sacrifice (Jesus) would be provided. We inherit the kingdom by FAITH, not lineage. JESUS is the only way into the kingdom. We have access to the Father in Heaven (Jehovah) ONLY through Jesus, NOT Abraham, David, or a Pope.
@AmericanBerean Remember that JESUS will sit on the throne of David in the millenial Kingdom. We inherit the kingdom through faith in JESUS, not ANY man. Our Spiritual Father is God Jehovah, not ANY man, IF you have accepted Jesus, and Jesus alone, for your salvation. It is a FREE GIFT for the asking (Romans 6:23 and Romans 10:13-KJV). No works or good deeds are involved. JESUS is the way!!
@AmericanBerean You mentioned that Jewish tradition says there are several levels of Hell. I would agree because men who have not accepted Jesus as their Saviour are judged by their sins. They are not under grace. Therefore, they will suffer according to their works. However, I disagree with you that we should go by Jewish tradition, or any of man's tradition. That was Jesus' whole case against the Pharisees.
@AmericanBerean Not enough room to finish about the rich man. His big mistake was depending on Abraham (his father) to get to heaven. He had never accepted Jesus as his Saviour. The Father in heaven was never his Spiritual Father. We have access to the Father's throne ONLY through Jesus-never a man. He was depending on his Jewish lineage for his salvation.
@ddrandguitar03 stop spreading your lies to people your argument about mediator is obscured its not even about belief you just don't even know what mediator means in the bible if you think asking for someone to pray for you is a being a mediator than that means its a a sin stop the you just contradicted yourself you admitted jesus is the only mediator in the same sentece you said share the two don't go together "only" ONLY!! do i need to explain to you what only means too?
@JOAOBUNITAO i find it kind of funny that your continued trolling is more likely to either continue to prove your own ignorance and bigotry towards the Catholic Church, or further the misunderstanding (to non-Christian readers) that Christianity really has no charity towards each other or anyone else who doesn't "comply" with their own personal interpretation.
either way, just keep talking your junk b/c you're not the 1st nor will be the last, and yet we're (Catholics) are still here.
@ddrandguitar03 so what you call charity is a pope calling forth all leaders of different religions to pray together for their own god! you fool as a christian we believe in one god and all false gods are made up by the devil so basically the pope asked other leaders to pray to the devil with him is that charity? and another thing its not interpretation i think bible=jesus one mediator one advocate catholics=thousands of mediators mary can also advocate it pretty simple its contradicting
@flameboy1236 from Catholic.com (legitimate Catholic apologetics site): "Catholics call the pope "Holy Father" not as an acknowledgement of his personal state of soul but as an expression of respect for his office as successor to Peter and head of the Church on earth. His is a holy office."
@ddrandguitar03 the church was a collection of small communities spread across an area large enough to keep them all virtually independent from one another. No fixed hierarchy of the faith in general existed. Aside from Jesus Christ Himself of course. People travelled little, and those who did travel, did so either alone, or in small groups.
omg you serpents ! you twist the word of god! "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" please make a video explaining this sense you pray to mary it says in plain words what excuse will your serpen brainwashed minds going to think of ? seriously make a video trying to explain it
@JOAOBUNITAO Christ is the only mediator between God and man. however, there is no reason why He does not let us share in that role (as in one person praying for another). if that were so, then anyone asking a person to pray for them would be blasphemous. but it's thankfully not the case. Mary is not the end result of our prayers; she carries them to God the same way you pray for someone who asked for prayers.
@ddrandguitar03 catholic teaching CLEARLY GIVES MARY THE TITLE MEDIATRIX thats so please ...um let me ask you something do every priest in the catholic church tell that to their catholic followers to say that ? i mean ...that argument is ignorant and you clearly did not put much thought in it before you said that there is an obvious difference !! because when you ask somebody to pray for you you ask them to pray to JESUS to talk to god your asking somebody in earth to pray for you
@ddrandguitar03 therefore when you pray for someone BUT WHEN YOU DO you still use jesus as a mediator but asking for someone to pray for you and they are already in heaven means your making them a mediator because they are already in heaven and their sins have been absolved so they can speak directly before a rightious god!! and that is blasphamy !! you just took jesus right out the picture and he serves the same role as mary and she has the same power mary cannot help you get into heaven!
@ddrandguitar03 mary cannot hear the prayers of a billion people at the same time what do you take her for?? surely only GOD CAN perform such a task first you need to stop being ignorant when you have access to knowledge first its clear you don't know what the bible meant when it said mediator read it to get it explained then read WHY we need a mediator once you have done these things find out what "ONLY " means then you will see by calling mary "co-mediator" is blasphamy
We are to use our heads And obviously He diddn't say it for no reason so If we use common sense we should not call priests such things i'm pretty sure he was reffering to one thing and it seemed to be directed to a future tense as a warning.GOD has no Idle Words he means somebody to not be called it so people better use their heads and stop calling priests Father for we are in a new covanant now read hebrews 8 the OT isn't our covanant we drink of the new wine nor do we have idols or statues.
brother do not be proud yourself better look the real father to forgive your sin no man worthy to forgive your sin jesus christ is your holy high prist go with jesus christ he is near to you pop john is just a man he need also to nelt and bow down before jesus christ he is sinner also he can,t forgive you.and besides pop john worship idol and man made statue like hindu always do.do not worship mary nor saint have faith in holy trinity in the name of jesus u shall be save,
Hey guys, I've had a blast this morning, but you have not even come close to debunking the Catholic church. I'm going to work now but I will eagerly await your replies and we can continue this useless circular merry-go round posting until you answer my questions about who ultimately has authority to interpret scripture. Do you?Do I? Who says what a particular passage means? Why do the Methodists differ from the Wesleyans, who differ from the Luthersna who differ from the. etc,etc. Get my point?
@BrotherAlphonsusMary In closing, Jesus DID establish the "original" Church. But the "Catholic" church (meaning "Universal") has been perverted by Rome! The Book of Acts records a very Penecostal style Church! Jeremiah said the Word is like a FIRE inside that can not be contained! (Jeremiah 20:9) and King David says to SHOUT to the Lord! CRY OUT His praise! Praise Him w/ BANGING CYMBALS! Not all this solemn DEAD hymns! There's no life in Catholic song! There's no joy! It's becuz HE is not there!
St.Paul felt a fatherly affection for those he brought to life through the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And he had no problem with appropriating this title to himself. How would you respond to this then, if we are not supposed to call anyone on earh 'father' Was St. Paul wrong?
We have these reference in scripture as well: 1 Thessalonians 2:11 "For you know that we dealt with each of you as a father deals with his own children" and 1 Timothy 1:2 "To Timothy my true son in the faith: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord." and Titus 1:4 "To Titus, my true son in our common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior." Sound familiar to you?
In continuing to wait I would like to call your attention to this in scripture: 1 Corinthians 4:14-15 "I am not writing this to shame you, but to warn you, as my dear children. 15 Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel." How is it contradictory for a priest or minister to have spiritual children, when St. Paul himself did. Surely it should have been forbidden to call St. Paul Father, right?
@BrotherAlphonsusMary um, st. paul? this is typical specualtion from catholics. free2bfierce you are totally biblically correct. they deny the truth because they have been so indoctrinated. you, free, have been blessed enough to break free of this man made garbage. lets pray that one day they willl be too. this is not an arguement that either one of you is right. that's the whole point. man can not be trusted.. only Christ. be blessed, both of you!
@HotBoyRandom Speculation from Catholics? Read the verses I quoted below, or do you deny scripture? Like I said. Protestants typically will take verses out of context, twisting them to suit their own agenda. This is nothing new and only serves their own man-made religions. How do you explain the tens of thousands of different denominations that teach different things? Your silence on this question is deafening.
@BrotherAlphonsusMary I'm going to chime in here. There are not TENS of thousands of denominations. There are 14 major and 207 sub-denominations. VERY unsettling, i agree, but it doesn't mean that Catholism is right by that annoying fact. Just like we do not have a "God of the gaps" because Science can only go so far (As Athiests say). The truth is, "religion" is the Old Convenant and Jesus brought us into the new and redeemed us!
Interesting little anecdotal note just to pass the time waiting for your reply. Did you know that John Wesley, the founder of Methodism, was known not only as "Mr. Wesley" but also as "Father Wesley," and "the Shakers called their matriarch 'Mother' and their male leaders 'Father.'"? Just thought I would run that by you to see what you thought.
IT seems that we will never get anywhere until we answer the question of the interpretation if scripture. I invite all protestants to the table. Why is it that there are many different doctrines floating about and each one of them says they have the truth? Isn't this a scandal to the rest of the world? Why do we Christians bicker among ourselves? Why is your denomination's interpretation right and another one wrong? Answer me this or else we can forget about any meaningful discussion here.
The voice explaining this is not reading it in the context of what Christ said!! He said "Do not call anyone on Earth "father"" and YES it was Spiritual, but not in a way of descendants (Abraham). In context He also said Do not call anyone Master ("Rabbi") or "Teacher". These are all SPIRITUAL titles that assert a "Spiritual ADVISOR" .. and "INTERCESSOR" or someone to revere as being "above" you spiritually. We go to God directly now, NOT through a Catholic Priest! They rob of intimacy w/ God!
@free2bfierce Why is it that protestants selectively say that only priests cannot be called father? We all know that when Jesus said "father abraham" he was not father in the sense that God is Father, and so when we call the priest father, we do not mean that he is a father in the same sense that God is Father. All fatherhood flows from God the Father, so this is why your personal interpretation of scripture is wrong my friend. I invite you to pray to be more open to the truth.
@BrotherAlphonsusMary You are my brother in Christ. I am sorry if I am coming across harsh! I BEG of you (seriously) to forgive me. It's just that I was Catholic and it was BECAUSE of that fact that I was lied to and never knew that I had to be "born again" and "saved" to enter Heaven like Jesus said! The Church teaches NOTHING about these requirements! "Born-Again"? Catholics look at you like you just spoke Latin! Sad! I love you my brother.. please leave man and come to Christ!
@free2bfierce Hey man, I am 'Born again' You left the true church. You left Jesus Christ Himself in the Eucharist. You are the one who needs to come back to the church that Jesus founded. In your heart you know I am right, and you may not be ready now, but when you are, you will remember what I said. I will be praying for you by brother. Please do not turn your back to Jesus. Come back to the church.
@BrotherAlphonsusMary I did not leave Jesus! I left MAN! "Stop trusting in man!" God says in Isaiah!!!! You are LITERALLY trusting in man! Priests that molest boys may not be the "majority" and only ignorance would allow me to think that, but it IS enough of a constant evil that PROVES the bad fruit in ur MAN MADE religion based ENTIRELY off specualtion!!! I love U and care about U too much to let u follow this abomination of a doctrine into God's wrath! Mary, statues, saints? ULTIMATE idolatry!
@free2bfierce And I love you in Christ too much to allow you to stew in your hate and delusions about the Church. Come home to Jesus. Let go of your hate and be filled with the Holy Spirit. Learn what the church really teaches and you will see what I am talking about. I'm sorry that you never had a personal relationship with Jesus while Catholic (u still are by the way) but I can tell you that I have a very deep personal relationship with Him. I love him very much and love the church he founded.
@BrotherAlphonsusMary Abraham was a Spriitual Father (descendant).. this is NOT what Jesus is talking about. Put it in context. He also said do not have a (spiritual) master, rabbi, or teacher! Another words.. we are all THE SAME! He is the "go-to" nto men! Even Protestant Pastors need to check themselves and make sure that they don't become mediators and rob people of the DIRECT intimacy we are to have with God that Jesus died for! I love you brother!
@free2bfierce Of course we are all the same in dignity, but how is it contradictory to have some sort of spiritual guide in life? How is it that parents can guide their children to good choices, and they are not usurping God's authority? Why does it have to be contradictory to have your pastor and my priest be spiritual guides for us, as long as we say that their authority ultimately stems from God just like a parent's authority ultimately stems from God? How does this not make sense to you?
umm...excuse me, but if we are not supposed to call any man 'father' why does Jesus refer to 'father' Abraham in the bible, and why do you call your dad 'father'? If you object to priests being called father, please explain the usage of 'father' Abraham and calling your dads your 'father.'
Catholics have a "Family" theme going in our church: we have "Father", "Mother" as in mother Teressa, "Brother", which are Monks, and "Sisters" as in Nuns. I believe this does not contradict the "call no man father" verse at all. And as the Catechism says: "No man is father as God is Father." and THAT is what we keep in mind for that verse.
@AtomicMonster454 You are right. I don't know why this is so hard for them to fathom. If they can call Abraham 'father' and their own dads 'father', There's no problem with the priest being called 'father' I have never understood the logic of selectively being only offended with the priest being called 'father' and not Abraham or their own dads. It is a very clear contradiction.
People who dump on the catholic church for the abuse scandal DO NOT CARE FOR CHILDREN at all; its just another opportunity to throw rocks at the church.
This vid is trash, first the parable Jesus spoke of was about the tribes of the Isrealites, notice Abraham was there father and if you finish it you see the man had brothers and Jesus said the man's family had Moses and the prophet, learn the scriptures man before you preach false doctrine. No man is called father save for your father in heaven, the family is a holy institution there by one could call his bio father, father.
there are so many contridictions in teh bible my friggin head is spining. and i think the preists and popes and cardinals are just like the scribes and pharisess that jesus was referring to. people adore them as if the were infallable men. they sinna dn fall short like veryone else. yet you see people bowing to them kissing their hands .....trash!
all you catholic women who leave your kids with fallable men, just because they have have exalted themselves with names like "Father", "Reverend", "Brother", "Bishop", or "Rabbi" are all deserving of HELL FIRE! YOU STUPID IGNORANT GREEDY WOMEN!
Another good point is that if Matthew 23:9 is taken literally, then I can't call my earthl dad "father," either! So I think this is one one of those verses that needs to be taken into a proper context. And if that context means "don't call anyone your god other than the Father in heaven," that makes sense.
What was said in this video about the Pharisees completely misguided. They NEVER left God, the Father out of the equatiion. In fact it was quite the opposite. They PREACHED only the Father and in doing so disregarded the Son. This is what Jesus warned them about. The warning given be Christ about not calling a man on earth Father is to not enable spiritual pride by allowing someone else to be a "priest" when we ALL are redeemed through Jesus and can come before God.
Matt. 23 is about the pharisees and scribes holding up themselves and verse 9 is like Jesus saying not to call anyone your father on earth. There may be exceptions but it is clear to me that it was because they liked to be acknowledged as special.
The real issue is that we are all of a royal priesthood (1 Peter 2:9).
Now does anyone want to say that is only spiritual as though you did not even have a physical change in your nature? All Christians are called not just a few.
The royal priesthood is not the issue. What is not universally recognized in protestantism is the liturgical priesthood. That is something primarily misunderstood or not recognized in non-liturgical forms of Christian belief. It was very evident to the early Christians and the apostolic faith of today (Catholic and Orthodox).
@free2bfierce Can you present scripture to support the Trinity? Nope, but we still believe it. To support Sola Scriptura? Nope. It only says that "ALL scripture is good for teaching and reproof" It doesn't say "ONLY scripture" Sola Scriptura itself is not even biblically based, so I would be careful with asking for proofs in scripture.
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TBird4490 3 months ago
It's blatantly obvious you are to NOT call anybody your spiritual father, other than Yahweh.
TBird4490 3 months ago
Are you Tim Staples ?
ToHeavenGo 4 months ago
Call no man father, in a spiritual sense.
Islandretreat 4 months ago
@Islandretreat r u kidding me? do you even know what Jesus meant? St.Paul calls Abraham father. So you clearly don't understand scripture.
MysticalCity 4 months ago
@MysticalCity "what Jesus meant was do not show anyone the same respect as you do to God.Jesus also says call no no one, teacher, and no one good, LITERALLY? no."
ANSWER: You are WAY WAY off base. I suggest you read Matthew Chapter 23 again. Jesus used the example of the Pharisees who loved to be seen in high places. The description, and many other places in the bible, makes it clear that your Pope fits the description to a T. I will not argue again. See all of my previous posts here.
davidrstarr 5 months ago
@davidrstarr no thanks, you can believe what you want, however there is only ONE true meaning, all these things, call no man father, Jesus having brothers etc..and other garbage, started after martin luther opened the floodgates for self interpretation of the bible, and now you are one of 40,000 sects preaching a false gospel started after luther, congratulations self made bible scholar.
MysticalCity 5 months ago
@MysticalCity: "so how exactly was the CC trying to "hide" the scriptures "
ANSWER: It is a very well known fact that is extensively documented in history that the Catholic church prevented the common people from reading the Bible or learning Latin. When the reformers tried to make it available that church burnt people at the stake. Please read Foxes Book of Martyrs for the gruesome details of the Inquisitions carried out by the Catholic "church"
davidrstarr 5 months ago
@davidrstarr The Catholic Church was preaching the gospel, how do you think the church fathers became saints? and the people like St.Augustine became saints? they went to Church! it was the only church around back then, you might want to read(The Fathers know best) for true early church history, and quotes from the church fathers themselves. The CC killing millions is a lie from the pit of hell, Everyone back then was Catholic, Saint Peter[1st Pope] was crucified in Rome--
MysticalCity 5 months ago
@davidrstarr and Saint Paul was beheaded in Rome, what are you going to say? The CC killed them?! i hope you realize the roman empire is not the same as the Roman Catholic Church, many Popes after St.Peter were martyred.
MysticalCity 5 months ago
@MysticalCity : James was a bisexual sodomite politician by the way, ANSWER: False: James was married to QueenAnne of denmark after a steamy romance. Together, they had 7 children. It would have been 12, but 2 were still births and 3 were miscarriages. During James reign he had to eject Stillwell from the King's court. 25 Years after James' death, he exacted revenge by starting a rumour that James was homosexual. It has never been proven or documented.
davidrstarr 5 months ago
The english version of the Bible came out decades before the corrupt king james version, (Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible) ANSWER: Partly correct. There were 7 English versions including the final KJV. jThe KJV is by no means corrupt.
davidrstarr 5 months ago
@MysticalCity: all documented historical fact" from who martin luther? an ex-catholic monk who liked a nun? ANSWER: You are confusing me with Protestants.
davidrstarr 5 months ago
@MysticalCity: Pope Damasus commissioned Saint Jerome to translate the bible to Latin, [WHICH WAS THE MOST COMMON LANGUAGE BACK THEN] CORRECT:ANSWER: This is the manuscript that Erasmus found to be corrupt. Simultaneously, Greek manuscripts were being used. the Latin Vulgate bible was in use for 1500 years! ANSWER: By the Roman Catholic church.
davidrstarr 5 months ago
@davidrstarr Saint Jerome's manuscripts corrupt? r u kidding me? he had the closest thing to the originals! and we don't have them today, Compare Luke 1:28 from the Douay-Rheims Bible to any other Bible and you will see corruption! did i say james was a homosexual? i said bisexual, i don't think you understand what this means? he can still love his wife ya know? foxes book on martyrs, garbage 0% reliable history, read Seven lies about Catholic History, then will talk.
MysticalCity 5 months ago
@MysticalCity I would like to clarify a previous statement. The early Christians referred to the Christian church as "Catholic" (universal). However, it was during the reign of Constantine in Rome that the Christian doctrine started to become corrupt. (eg praying to statues, repititons on the rosary, pray to the Queen of heaven, purgatory etc). This corrupt church is what I refer to as the present day "Roman Catholic" church, which s NOT a Biblical New Testament church.
davidrstarr 5 months ago
@AmericanBerean: "My point is you are accepting an extra-biblical tradition to tell you these things."
ANSWER: Wrong. I am trusting a intra-Biblical source to tell me the Bible is the only Word of God; the Bible itself! It is the only book in the world that can claim complete inerrancy of prophecy. Only the inspired Word of God can do that. YOU are trusting in an extra-Biblical "authority" by trustung in fallible men to claim authority over you. You are trusting in a man-made religion.
davidrstarr 5 months ago
@AmericanBerean: Also, please realize that I am NOT making a case of Baptist vs Catholic. I am making a case of Bible (Jesus) vs Catholic. I just happen to be in a local non-hierarchical New Testament church that happens to be Baptist. I stay because only the Bible is preached, and not the traditions of men.
davidrstarr 5 months ago
@AmericanBerean I will read "This Baptist History" by E. Wayne Thompson. I wonder if it's kindled...
ANSWER: I do not know if it is Kindled. However, please keep in mind that I am not trying to make a case that there is some "Royal" Apostolic lineage here. Jesus is the head of the church, not a lineage of people or popes. This was given only for your information in response to a question.
davidrstarr 5 months ago
@AmericanBeran: It is also highlyu doubtful that the Catholic church can be traced to the NT since it was a state, government ruled "church" started by Constantine in the 300s AD. This is why it has such a carnal bureaucracy since it was created bvia secularism. It is also wht there are so many pagan rituals.
davidrstarr 5 months ago
@davidrstarr how was the Catholic Church started by constantine when, church fathers and saints mentioned 'The Catholic Church" before 300 AD? would you like quotes? The CC put The Holy Bible together, The CC came before the Bible, do you know who translated the Bible into the vernacular tongue? It took 400 years to compile the Bible and another 1000 for the printing press, how did people back then get their info? by going to the CC.
MysticalCity 5 months ago
@MysticalCity how was the Catholic Church started by constantine when, church fathers and saints mentioned 'The Catholic Church" before 300 AD? would you like quotes?
ANSWER: Yes, I would like documented references.
davidrstarr 5 months ago
@MysticalCity The Hebrews put the OT together. The NT the CC put together is corrupt and uses different manuscripts than that used by Christians. This was evidenced when Erasmus first compared the Greek texts to the corrupt Latin texts used by the CC. The CC uses the Alexandrian manuscripts and the Christian Bible (KJV) uses the Byzantine texts-two different Bibles, In addition, the CC uses the Septuigent as the OT. The Hebrews reject this. The KJV uses the Masoretic original Hebrew texts.
davidrstarr 5 months ago
@MysticalCity It took 400 years to compile the Bible and another 1000 for the printing press, how did people back then get their info? by going to the CC.
There were many other New Testament peoples that ran parrallel to the CC. The manuscripts from the KJV comes from their texts, NOT the CC. These peoples were never part of the Catholic "church". In fact, many of these peoples were hunted, burned and hung by several Catholic popes for refusing to accept the heretical doctrines.
davidrstarr 5 months ago
@MysticalCity how did people back then get their info? by going to the CC.
As mentioned in my other posts, there were Christians that were never part of the CC or broke away in the first centuries when they corrupted Christian doctrine. They have maintained our texts and was the source for Biblical teaching.
davidrstarr 5 months ago
@MysticalCity how did people back then get their info? by going to the CC.
The Catholic "church" prevented and made unlawful the reading of their "Bible". Anyone caught reading it or translating it were burned at the stake. Bloody Mary, a Catholic, was a more prominent example of the inquisitions. The Catholic church attempted for centuries to keep the word of God from the people. This is all documented historical fact..
davidrstarr 5 months ago
@davidrstarr your completely ignorant beyond belief its depressing, after the books were chosen by the Catholic Church ,Pope Damasus commissioned Saint Jerome to translate the bible to Latin, [WHICH WAS THE MOST COMMON LANGUAGE BACK THEN] the Latin Vulgate bible was in use for 1500 years! since you like to talk nonsense and think you know history, The printing press was invented in the 1440's and guess what was the first book printed? The Latin Vulgate Bible
MysticalCity 5 months ago
@MysticalCity "your completely ignorant beyond belief its depressing", "where do you get your info from? wikipedia? youtube videos?"
ANSWER: I can see you are intolerant of other viewpoints and you have a very derogatory and rude method of communcating. No, I do not get my information from You Tube or Wikipedia. Nonetheless, this has gone on far beyond my initial conversation regarding calling men father. I do not have time to live here. I wish you the best living your Catholic relligion.
davidrstarr 5 months ago
@davidrstarr How ignorant of scripture are you? St Paul refers to himself as a father,and what was Abraham? Father of nations, what Jesus meant was do not show anyone the same respect as you do to God.Jesus also says call no no one, teacher, and no one good, LITERALLY? no. BTW the king james bible has more errors in it then my college math midterm(got 20%) I hope one day you find out the truth before spreading nonsense and hurting yourself.
MysticalCity 5 months ago
@davidrstarr "all documented historical fact" from who martin luther? an ex-catholic monk who liked a nun?
and here is this for history, The english version of the Bible came out decades before the corrupt king james version, (Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible) james was a bisexual sodomite politician by the way, its no wonder his wife became Catholic, so how exactly was the CC trying to "hide" the scriptures when they translated it to english before the protestant bible?(king James)
MysticalCity 5 months ago
@davidrstarr one more thing, did you know that the james version of the bible copied the new testament from the Douay-Rheims?(about 90%, removed a few words they didn't like)where do you get your info from? wikipedia? youtube videos? very very reliable sources! you might want to research something yourself once in a while, The CC was the only church up until the reformation,(well the orthodox started in 1054) thanks to martin luther we now hve over 40,000 sects claiming their correct.
MysticalCity 5 months ago
@MysticalCity,To say the Roman Catholic Church put the Bible together is not true. It was the Universal Church, not exclusively the Church of Rome. There were pastors in attendance from the British/Celtic Church as well as from all over Christendom. You have a distorted view of history. Pope-worship is idolatry. Emperor (and mass-murderer) Phocas conferred the title of Universal Bishop in 606AD. The Papacy gave up the right to be called a "Church" with the Donation of Pepin.
Islandretreat 4 months ago
@Islandretreat you are clearly ignorant, did i say The RCC??? no i said The Catholic Church, that's true history, The RCC is The Vatican today, every Catholic church back then was under communion to the bishop of Rome AKA The Pope, if you were not, then you were not Catholic, The Catholic Church determined The Canon of scripture, And Catholics(The First Christians) do not worship the Pope, you are clearly ignorant, your not even qualified to debate this topic.
MysticalCity 4 months ago
@MysticalCity, "your not even qualified to debate this topic"
The word is "you're" and I've just informed you that the primacy of Rome was unheard of in 325AD. What gives the Papal Ceasar ("Pope") the sole right to infallibly interpret Scripture? I'm just as qualified as any papist.
Islandretreat 4 months ago
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@Islandretreat actually your not, that right goes exclusively to The Catholic Church, The Catholic Church came before the Bible. Private interpretation of scripture is forbidden by the bible itself (2 St. Peter 1:20)
Some people misinterpret scripture to their own condemnation (2 St. Peter 3:16)
MysticalCity 4 months ago
@Islandretreat
"What gives the Papal Ceasar ("Pope") the sole right to infallibly interpret Scripture? I'm just as qualified as any papist."
I don't think so. Jesus said the HS would guide the apostles and the church which He built. You are not Christ's church all by yourself. Everyone interprets scripture differently. Protestants claim, just like you, that they alone are guided by the HS yet not one is united in a common belief. Scripture is quite clear about having one mind, one faith.
MrChristianBeliever 4 months ago
@Islandretreat - "I've just informed you that the primacy of Rome was unheard of in 325AD" -
Rubbish. One of the Apostolic Fathers, Clement of Rome, was a desciple of Peter. He was also the 4th pope. There are writings of his that go back to the very late 1st Century, where he exerts papal primacy over the bishops of the early Church.
- "What gives the Papal Ceasar ("Pope") the sole right to infallibly interpret Scripture?" -
He doesn't. You don't understand papal infallibilty.
TenderTrap86 4 months ago
@TenderTrap86, I couldn't help but notice you ignored the fact the 6th and 7th canons recognise the authority of the other Churches. The title of "Universal Bishop" was conferred on Boniface III by imperial decree in 606AD, by Emperor (and mass murderer) Phocas.
Islandretreat 4 months ago
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@Islandretreat "I've just informed you that the primacy of Rome was unheard of in 325AD" -
Rubbish. One of the Apostolic Fathers, Clement of Rome, was a desciple of Peter. He was also the 4th pope. There are writings of his that go back to the very late 1st Century, where he exerts papal primacy over the bishops of the early Church.
- "What gives the Papal Ceasar ("Pope") the sole right to infallibly interpret Scripture?" -
He doesn't. You don't understand papal infallibilty.
TenderTrap86 4 months ago
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MysticalCity 4 months ago
@Islandretreat The hard nut for Protestants to crack is the fact that the Catholic Church determined the canon of Scripture at regional councils in A.D. 382, 393 and 397. Even your own Protestant apologists recognize the same. Why don't you?The Catholic Church translated the original copies during the first centuries of the Church and throughout the Middle Ages. She also made the Scriptures available in the vernacular so all could read them. Study your history.
MysticalCity 4 months ago
@MysticalCity At Nicaea in 325 the primacy of Rome was unheard of, the 6th and 7th canons recognise the authority of the Churches of Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem & others. The early Christian Church was in Jerusalem, not Rome? The Church of Rome was instrumental in determining canon but bear in mind Diocletian's persecution. My own country was behind Hadrian's Wall, the Romans were trying to exterminate us. The Bible comes from the writers. The Apocrypha was "inspired" at the Council of Trent.
Islandretreat 4 months ago
@Islandretreat The 73 books were always part of the canon since the beginning of the regional councils(Carthage and Rome) and reinstated at Councils of Florence and Trent. I can give you many Church Fathers quotes using these books. Protestants arguing these books are not inspired is just plain nonsense, who in the world is anyone to say if they are? The Catholic Church is the final authority period.
MysticalCity 4 months ago
@Islandretreat "The church of God which sojourns at Rome to the church of God which sojourns at Corinth ... But if any disobey the words spoken by him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger." Clement of Rome, Pope, 1st Epistle to the Corinthians, 1,59:1 (c. A.D. 96).
MysticalCity 4 months ago
@AmericanBerean: "why do you believe it (inserted-The Bible)alone is the revealed Word of God? "
ANSWER: Because through the inerrancy of Bible prophecy which has been fulfilled time and time again, I am convinced that the Bible is the INSPIRED word of God. Extra-Biblical sources, although many times useful, are NOT inspired and are written by fallible men. It must be checked against the Final Authority-The Bible.
davidrstarr 5 months ago
to know history is to cease to be protestant-John Henry Newman
MysticalCity 5 months ago
@AmericanBeran: It has become abundantly clear to me that you are defending the Catholic religion and your traditions. What you do not understand is that I am not religious. I am not a Baptist. I am a Christian who uses the Bible as my final authority, not the traditions of men.
davidrstarr 5 months ago
@davidrstarr OK, you trust only in the Bible as God's revealed Word. But why do you believe it alone is the revealed Word of God? Why only those 66 books? Why not 73? How do you know Matthew wrote that Gospel? My point is you are accepting an extra-biblical tradition to tell you these things. That's not necessarily bad. Judge the tradition by it's source. Apostolic Tradition tells us what composes the Bible. Therefore we trust it as God's word.
AmericanBerean 5 months ago
@AmericanBeran: You seem to conclude that since I see myself as a priest and a minister (the correct Biblical fact) that I do not take guidance from Pastors or other Biblical Christians. I would definitely be extremely fallible if this were true. We have regular discourse on numerous Scriptural topics and Bible studies on a regular basis. When many are agreed using scripture we are much less vulnerable to heresies. however, we do not accept edicts and proclamations from a distant sinner.
davidrstarr 5 months ago
@AmericanBerean:"I recognize my own fallibility so I accept guidance in interpretation by someone who was there during the NT"
ANSWER: So doi, the Gospel and Epistle writers.
davidrstarr 5 months ago
@American Berean "Can you show me the Baptist Church's continuous history to NT times?"
There are numerous works on this topic. One comprehensive treatise is "This Baptist History" by E. Wayne Thompson. Bob Jones University Press. Nonetheless,the lineage of this body of believers it is not really important to my worship. I provide this only because you ask. However, many of their bones are below the vatican where they were buried after being burnt at the stake by Popes (Innocent, for one).
davidrstarr 5 months ago
@davidrstarr I will read "This Baptist History" by E. Wayne Thompson. I wonder if it's kindled...
AmericanBerean 5 months ago
@American Berean: "Can you show me the Baptist Church's continuous history to NT times?"
ANSWER: I brought up my local Baptist church only in answer to your statement that I follow a Protestant tradition. Baptists are not protestant since they were never part of the Catholic church. I am not a Baptist. However, my local church preaches from the Bible only. As a Berean, I only accept that which can be proven true Biblically. In my experience, it is a rare event this doesn't happen.
davidrstarr 5 months ago
@AmericanBerean
"Jesus was proved to be the heir of David by His lineage."
ANSWER: Very true
RCC can demonstrate it's Apostolicity by its lineage
ANSWER: False. RCC can prove a lineage of people who have usurped the throne of Jesus. The church was built upon Jesus, not Peter.
davidrstarr 5 months ago
@AmericanBerean "Christ said "I will build my Church" He meant the universal one."
y and NO man in between.
Once again, the church is a body of believers that report to Christ. The church is a FLAT organization where all report to Christ equally. There can be several local bodies of believers, but there is no hierarchy or any man in between.
davidrstarr 5 months ago
@AmericanBerean Christ said "I will build my Church" He meant the universal one. Both usages occur throughout NT. So, our respective interpretational traditions determine the meaning. My tradition goes back 2000 years. Yours goes back 500 years. Which, then, is more likely Apostolic in origin?
ANSWER: Christ built his church upon himself ("The Rock"). I am NOT using a tradition. I am quoting the Bible. The church is in NO way a physical structure or bureaucracy of men. Christ is the head.
davidrstarr 5 months ago
@davidrstarr I can see you are sincere in your love for Jesus, but you are sincerely wrong in your interpretation of Scripture. You ARE following a tradition of interpretation, the Protestant tradition. I am following a tradition of interpretation, the Catholic Tradition. From what I've learned, the Catholic Tradition makes more sense.
There is no man between me and Jesus... Pope and priest and Apostolic Tradition all enhance my relationship, not hinder it. Sola Scriptura leads to misinterpret.
AmericanBerean 5 months ago
@AmericanBerean "You ARE following a tradition of interpretation, the Protestant tradition."
I am following the Bible. I am a member of a Baptist church, but these were never part of the Catholic church. They can be traced back to NT times. Baptists are NOT Protestants. I do not consider myself a Baptist. I do consider much of what is preached to be Biblical. Like you, I am a Berean,. I reject anything I believe contradicts the Bible. This does not happen real often.
davidrstarr 5 months ago
@davidrstarr Jesus was proved to be the heir of David by His lineage and RCC can demonstrate it's Apostolicity by its lineage. Can you show me the Baptist Church's continuous history to NT times?
You follow the Bible. That's a good attitude, but remember, you are fallible. I recognize my own fallibility so I accept guidance in interpretation by someone who was there when the Gospel was new: the Church Christ founded. It's lineage is part of it's credentials and the Spirit guides it infallibly.
AmericanBerean 5 months ago
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@AmericanBerean "There is no man between me and Jesus". I completely agree.
"Pope and priest and Apostolic Tradition all enhance my relationship," Pastors, Missionaries, visiting Pastors, and other members of my local congregation all enhance my experience of Christ. So, we are in agreement here.
"Sola Scriptura leads to mis-interpretation." Yes, it can. But the personal relationship with Christ is preserved.
davidrstarr 5 months ago
Believe it pple Catholic is the only true church found by Jesus Christ and Apostle Peter 2000 years ago and if u don't believe it, bad luck, yr just blind like everyone else by the truth. Catholic made the bble and because stupid pple copy it and made like their own and they twist to make the Catholic look bad to the world..I know 4 a fact our faith is the only true faith...God bless...
tonganfoilole69 5 months ago
Is that picture John Martignoni???? Kidding, but it really looks like him. Check out CrimsonCatholic's channel (some of his vids are over there-> ) and you'll see what I mean...
AmericanBerean 5 months ago
True
lippertism 8 months ago
The author of the video uses the rich man and Lazaraeth story to justify calling men father other than our Heavenly Father. In this story, the rich man is in Hell and calls Abraham father. I do not think this is a good example since the rich man was in Hell!
davidrstarr 8 months ago
@davidrstarr How about the other examples?
haojiesheng 8 months ago
@haojiesheng I would have to watch the video again to answer your question. However, the Catholic church calls their priests father. The Bible tells us that ALL Christians are priests and ministers, not men ordained by other men. You can read this in Revelation 5:6 and 1:10. Anyone who has accepted Jesus as their Saviour is a priest (has access to the throne of God). Therefore, we are all brethren. No man is the Spiritual father of any Christian. He is a brother if he has accepted Christ.
davidrstarr 8 months ago
@davidrstarr. AMEN!! The RCC has twisted Matt 23:9. Either that or the RCC hasnt read this verse.The RCC causes so much confusion and mockery, that's why I left. I dont pray the rosary anymore, and bcuz of this Jesus wont send me to hell. He has saved me.
bornagainsaint1 8 months ago
@bornagainsaint1 It is very clear from the entire chapter of Matthew 23 that no man is over us spiritually except our heavenly father, especially the Pope who loves to be seen in public being praised and glorified above all men. This was Jesus chief complaint against the hypocritical Pharisee sect who loved to look pious and be admired by others. Also, Matthew 6:7 tells us to not use vain repetitions in "prayer" as the HEATHEN do. Together with numerous other verses, the rosary is a heresy.
davidrstarr 8 months ago
@davidrstarr and it is followed by the statement that "she must be silent." The word silence means being possessed by a calmness of spirit and peaceful disposition. It is set as the opposite to "teaching" and "having authority over a man." (compare with Titus 2:3-5 and 2 Tim. 1:5; 3:14,15). He states that they cannot teach or have authority over men. Thus, they cannot have a pastoral position, or perform the pastoral function, for that puts them in authority over men.
JOAOBUNITAO 7 months ago
@JOAOBUNITAO Your commentary about "women remaining silent" in the church: I agree with everything you have said. However, I am not sure what statement I made that you are responding to. It has been a while since I visited this site. I only happened on it by happenstance.
davidrstarr 7 months ago
@bornagainsaint1 PART TWO: In addition, we should pray that those who follow heresies receive wisdom from the Holy Spirit and that those who glorify men have their eyes open to see that only Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, NO MAN cometh to the father but by him (John 14:6), not a church, not sacraments, not a priest, not a pope. JESUS is the source of our salvation.
davidrstarr 8 months ago
@haojiesheng Also, getting back to the rich man and Lazareth, the rich man was in Hell because he never accepted Jesus as his Saviour. He had depended on the laws of Abraham (his father). Abraham could not save anyone. Only Jesus can save us by his shed blood on the cross. Abraham was a man and a sinner just like you, I, Lazareth and the rich man. This also includes the Pope and any Catholic "priest".
davidrstarr 8 months ago
@haojiesheng II Corinthians 6:4 (KJV): "But in all things approving ourselves as the MINISTERS OF GOD". All men who have accepted Jesus as their Saviour are ministers (servants) of God, not just a man ordained Catholic priest who is a sinner in need of salvation just like the rest of us.
davidrstarr 8 months ago
@davidrstarr He was in Sheol, I think, not Gehenna. English uses "Hell" for both. Sheol was Abraham's Bosom/Paradise/Limbo and was where the dead awaited Jesus. He descended to there and brought the righteous to Heaven. Gehenna is the Hell of eternal damnation. (In Jewish tradition there were 7 levels of hell, from Sheol to Gehenna.) This parable supports the doctrine of Purgatory as well as the "father" issue.
AmericanBerean 5 months ago
@AmericanBerean I agree that we should all be Bereans.. I agree that the OT uses Sheol in the original Hebrew and Hades, Gehenna and Tartara (Jude) in the NT. I also agree that the OT saints were in Sheol (Paradise, Abraham's Bosom-not Heaven) and that they were released after the resurrection. The rich man was separated from Abraham and Lazarus by a great gulf and he was burning in Hell. He was calling Abraham father. Only our Father in heaven is our Spiritual Father, never a man..
davidrstarr 5 months ago
@davidrstarr In the Davidic dynasty (which is God's kingdom manifested on earth) the King's vicar is referred to as the people's father Isaiah22:21. This supports calling the pope Father, since he occupies the office of vicar.
Abraham,David,Jacob were referred to in the NT as our fathers.
Here's some homework for you: use your favorite digital bible and search for "father". You'll find that the Catholic position is 100% compatible with Scripture, when taken in context of Scripture as a whole.
AmericanBerean 5 months ago
@AmericanBerean You are referring to the OT covenant. David, Abraham etc where fathers to Hebrews by birth and the Jews inherited the kingdom by lineage. Christians who have accepted Jesus as their Saviour are related to Abraham, David etc only by FAITH in Jesus. This is a main point of Hebrews. .Look at 1 Timothy 1:4 and Titus 3:9. Here we see to AVOID endless genealogies. The Jews do not inherit the kingdom by lineag, it is only by faith in the GRACE of God through Jesus, just like us.
davidrstarr 5 months ago
@davidrstarr OT covenant was fulfilled in Jesus. By faith in Him, we can call Abraham our father. Paul, addressing Christians in Rome (hence, surely including Gentiles) referred to Abraham as our father, 4:16. Just so, Abraham is also your spiritual father.
Genealogy is important. Jesus is proved to be King by his lineage. The Davidic dynasty which he rules features a lineage of vicars as well a Kings. That guy can Scripturally be called "father" by Christians... aka "Pope".
AmericanBerean 5 months ago
@AmericanBerean Yes, genealogy is important in the sense that it proves the fulfillment of a Messiah through the loins of Abraham, David etc, but it is not important for salvation. The Pope is only a MAN. He is a sinner just like us and needs Jesus to get into the kingdom.
.
No, we do NOT call Abraham our Spiritual father. He is not even a paternal father. We are related to him in that we both share a faith in Jesus as our way into the kingdom. Only Jehovah is our Spiritual Father
davidrstarr 5 months ago
@davidrstarr Genealogy is important for salvation because God promised the savior (anointed,messiah,christos) would be a descendant of David. That's how we know who to have faith in.
Pope=man=sinner, no one ever said otherwise. But Jesus uses sinners to shepherd the earthly side of His Kingdom. We know who the visible shepherd is by "genealogy" of the office of Peter, the first prime shepherd. Jesus told him "feed my lambs," "tend my sheep," "feed my sheep."
AmericanBerean 5 months ago
@AmericanBerean I agree. We have Bishops, Pastors (but not priests) etc who help guide us in the Word of God, but they are NOT our Spiritual fathers. They are men just like us and make errors. You said it yourself. We should be Bereans. The Word of God (Jesus-John 1)) is our real Spiritual guide through the Holy Spirit, not any man. We only have access to our Spirutual Father, Jehovah, through Jesus. We are priests, not just a Catholic man, which have this Spiritual access through Jesus.
davidrstarr 5 months ago
@AmericanBerean Please look at the man in the video. Do you really believe he is not a sinner just like you and I. He, like us, only has access to the Spiritual Father, through Jesus. Also, the Bible tells us that ALL Christians who have accepted Jesus as their Saviour are priests and ministers. A priest is someone who has access to the throne of Jehovah through Jesus, NOT a Catholic MAN. (I Peter 2:5 KJV and Hebrews 4: 14-16 (KJV). Here we learn JESUS is our HIGH priest to Jehovah.
davidrstarr 5 months ago
@davidrstarr We are indeed a "kingdom of priests". In the sense that we all have direct access to God the Father. And in the sense that we can offer sacrifices pleasing to him.
But Jesus calls only a few to share in His ministerial priesthood. At the Last Supper He instituted this priesthood when he commanded and empowered the Apostles to "do this in memory of me". They then received the grace to manifest Jesus' sacrifice as the Eucharist.
AmericanBerean 5 months ago
@AmericanBerean You are NOW getting into a whole new topic, the Eucharist! I am not trying to evade you, but I really must go, but I will leave you with one remark. Jesus told us to eat the bread and drink the wine in REMEMBRANCE of him. It in no way says it IS him. We are now off topic about "fathers in heaven. I will re-join later.
davidrstarr 5 months ago
@AmericanBerean Hebrews tells us that ALL believers in Jesus as their Saviour are a Holy Priesthood, just just a few select men. He tells us that anyone who comes to him he wil in no wise cast out. Also, the Holy Spirit was given in the Pentacost to ALL believers, not just a select few.
davidrstarr 5 months ago
@davidrstarr We are all priests but not all of us in the pastoral sense. Only a few are ordained, consecrated, for that role by the imposition of hands (Acts6:6,13:3, cf 14:23). These were called "presbyters" and "episkopos" and they exercised pastoral roles in the various communities (1Tim5:17,Jam5:14–15). They are spiritual "fathers" to the Christians (1Cor4:15,2Cor12:14,1Thess2:11). Jesus said call no man "father" in the sense of being the source of holiness and our blessings.
AmericanBerean 5 months ago
@AmericanBerean I do agree with your final statement that NO man is a source of holiness or blessings. I also agree that Pastors, Bishops etc are to help guide the flock. However, I will have to readand contemplate the verses you provided. Right now, very busy, but will answer later on these verses.
davidrstarr 5 months ago
@AmericanBerean PART ONE OF TWO: I did look at your verses and I reviewed, once again, Matthew 23 where we are told by Jesus to "call no man father. I am afraid I have to vehemently continue to disagree with you. This very chapter is warning us against popes and "Catholic" priests (as just a few examples of Pharisees).
davidrstarr 5 months ago
@davidrstarr The pope is called "Servant of the Servants of Christ". And each year he washes the feet of others. Does this seem like he's got a superiority complex? He is the antithesis of the Pharisees Jesus chastised.
Jesus is the only high priest, but we are all called priests. Just so, there is one true Master and one true Father, but others on earth can be masters and fathers, too, just not the Master or Father from whom all good things come. That is the meaning of Matt 23 in context.
AmericanBerean 5 months ago
@AmericanBerean: The Catholics can call him anything they want including "Holy Father" which is absolute blasphemy. There is One Holy and that is God. He can wash someone's feet once a year in public to be seen by men as being "pious" but I suggest he move out of his multi-billion dollar palace and serve like Christ. Riding around in gold chariots is NOT my idea of a servant of Christ. In addition, kissing his ring is not my idea of a servant of Christ. Nor is it Biblical.
davidrstarr 5 months ago
@AmericanBerean PART TWO OF TWO:....love to be seen in high places, love to be seen of men, enlarge the borders of their garments,love the chief seats in the "synagogues. The chapter concludes with only ONE is our Master (Christ) and we are all brethren (if saved through Christ). In addition, I KNOW when the Holy Spirit is speaking to me. We should NEVER call any man father. Yes, Paul was a "father" to the churches but he was never called this by title.
davidrstarr 5 months ago
@AmericanBerean The REALLY "eternally" important thing is have we accepted the free gift of heaven offered t us by Jesus when he died on the cross for our sins. (Romans 6:23, Romans 10:13 etc). That is the message (Gospel) that all Christians should be focused on and spreading it to all nations.
davidrstarr 5 months ago
@davidrstarr Yes, the REALLY important thing is Jesus as our redeemer. To get people to believe and accept that is the ultimate purpose of His Church. And if that's as far as someone's faith takes them, they can still get into heaven. God knows their heart. But I believe that Christ founded a society to protect and spread His Gospel. That society He empowered to speak in His name, since He ascended, and therefore is infallible. So I am bound to obey that society in matters of faith and morals.
AmericanBerean 5 months ago
@AmericanBerean Amen to spreading the Gospel of Christ! Yes, the society delegated to spread that Gospel is the church. The church is a body of Born-again believers saved by the blood of Jesus. It is not a physical man-made bureaucracy.
davidrstarr 5 months ago
@davidrstarr The body of Christ: You believe in the spiritual association of all believers, His Church, as do I. But I believe also in the visible, organized aspect. Both together, spiritual and visible, compose the Church, which is the Kingdom of God manifested on Earth. Jesus is the Davidic heir and David's Kingdom was God's Kingdom manifested in Earth. The kings had ministers they empowered, so also Christ empowered ministers to command in His name, with Peter as the prime minister.
AmericanBerean 5 months ago
@AmericanBerean Yes, I believe in BOTH the Spiritual sense and earthly Kingdom of God manifested in a body of believers on this earth. However, the Bible tells us that All born again believers are ministers (servants) of Christ Jesus is the commander and there is none in between. We are all priests all having equal access to the throne of grace. Matt 8:20 (KJV) "Where two or more are gathered together in my name so will I BE ALSO". There is no bureaucracy and it is not under Peter or a Pope.
davidrstarr 5 months ago
@davidrstarr You quote Matt18:20 out of context. In context, it supports my case. Back up to verse 15. This scene is depicting an authoritative body judging a member of the congregation with the authority of Christ Himself, as indicated by verse 20. Such an authoritative body must be recognized as deriving from Christ or it is powerless.
Jesus is indeed Head and Source of all power and grace. But He DID delegate to hand-picked men His authority to judge on earth and appointed one as their leader
AmericanBerean 5 months ago
@AmericanBerean Yes, Matt18 is describing an assembly of a LOCAL church (body of believers) as hearing a case in church discipline. My point is that a church is LOCAL where two or more believers are gathered in the name of Jesus, NOT a distant Pope. NOT a building (eg Vatican). This same scenario occurs regularly between very few believers. NO bureaucracy is involved. It is between Christ and TWO or more believers.
davidrstarr 5 months ago
@davidrstarr Yes, "church" has two meanings, local ("church") and universal ("Church"), and the context of the specific usage determines its meaning there. We just disagree on when it's universal or local. When Christ said "I will build my Church" He meant the universal one. Both usages occur throughout NT.
So, our respective interpretational traditions determine the meaning. My tradition goes back 2000 years. Yours goes back 500 years. Which, then, is more likely Apostolic in origin?
AmericanBerean 5 months ago
@AmericanBerean We just had a case of local church discipline between two deacons, a father and his unruly son. No Pastor was involved. The scripture was read and the child immediately understood SPIRITUALLY that he was being disciplined in the name of Christ. The BIBLE (Jesus) was the authority!
davidrstarr 5 months ago
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davidrstarr 5 months ago
@AmericanBerean Respond to this video... "so also Christ empowered ministers to command in His name, with Peter as the prime minister."
False: Jesus is head of EVERYTHING in the BODY of the church.
Ephesians 5:23 "Even as HE is the HEAD of the church.
Col 1:18 "And HE is the HEAD of the BODY, the church, who is the Beginning, the First-born from the dead, that He may be pre-eminent IN ALL THINGS." .....".pre-eminent over ALL and ALL over ALL things".
davidrstarr 5 months ago
@AmericanBerean You are missing the whole point of salvation by grace. When Abraham was asked by God to sacrifice Isaac on the altar, he had FAITH that God would provide the sacrifice-JESUS! In Hebrews we learn that like Abraham, Christians also have faith that the sacrifice (Jesus) would be provided. We inherit the kingdom by FAITH, not lineage. JESUS is the only way into the kingdom. We have access to the Father in Heaven (Jehovah) ONLY through Jesus, NOT Abraham, David, or a Pope.
davidrstarr 5 months ago
@AmericanBerean Remember that JESUS will sit on the throne of David in the millenial Kingdom. We inherit the kingdom through faith in JESUS, not ANY man. Our Spiritual Father is God Jehovah, not ANY man, IF you have accepted Jesus, and Jesus alone, for your salvation. It is a FREE GIFT for the asking (Romans 6:23 and Romans 10:13-KJV). No works or good deeds are involved. JESUS is the way!!
davidrstarr 5 months ago
@AmericanBerean You mentioned that Jewish tradition says there are several levels of Hell. I would agree because men who have not accepted Jesus as their Saviour are judged by their sins. They are not under grace. Therefore, they will suffer according to their works. However, I disagree with you that we should go by Jewish tradition, or any of man's tradition. That was Jesus' whole case against the Pharisees.
davidrstarr 5 months ago
@AmericanBerean Not enough room to finish about the rich man. His big mistake was depending on Abraham (his father) to get to heaven. He had never accepted Jesus as his Saviour. The Father in heaven was never his Spiritual Father. We have access to the Father's throne ONLY through Jesus-never a man. He was depending on his Jewish lineage for his salvation.
davidrstarr 5 months ago
God Bless the Catholic Church <3
willthacheerleader18 8 months ago
in other words, you can do the opposite of what the bible says if the catholic church teaches that you can. simple.
skunksnag 10 months ago
@skunksnag ignorant commentary yet once again....*sigh*
ddrandguitar03 9 months ago
@ddrandguitar03 stop spreading your lies to people your argument about mediator is obscured its not even about belief you just don't even know what mediator means in the bible if you think asking for someone to pray for you is a being a mediator than that means its a a sin stop the you just contradicted yourself you admitted jesus is the only mediator in the same sentece you said share the two don't go together "only" ONLY!! do i need to explain to you what only means too?
JOAOBUNITAO 9 months ago
@JOAOBUNITAO i find it kind of funny that your continued trolling is more likely to either continue to prove your own ignorance and bigotry towards the Catholic Church, or further the misunderstanding (to non-Christian readers) that Christianity really has no charity towards each other or anyone else who doesn't "comply" with their own personal interpretation.
either way, just keep talking your junk b/c you're not the 1st nor will be the last, and yet we're (Catholics) are still here.
ddrandguitar03 9 months ago
@ddrandguitar03 so what you call charity is a pope calling forth all leaders of different religions to pray together for their own god! you fool as a christian we believe in one god and all false gods are made up by the devil so basically the pope asked other leaders to pray to the devil with him is that charity? and another thing its not interpretation i think bible=jesus one mediator one advocate catholics=thousands of mediators mary can also advocate it pretty simple its contradicting
JOAOBUNITAO 7 months ago
@skunksnag lol yeah im ignorant in believing that only God is the father. ooook.
skunksnag 9 months ago
Calling a spiritual teacher "father" is ok, but calling the pope "Holy Father" is a different story.
flameboy1236 11 months ago
@flameboy1236 from Catholic.com (legitimate Catholic apologetics site): "Catholics call the pope "Holy Father" not as an acknowledgement of his personal state of soul but as an expression of respect for his office as successor to Peter and head of the Church on earth. His is a holy office."
ddrandguitar03 9 months ago
@ddrandguitar03 the church was a collection of small communities spread across an area large enough to keep them all virtually independent from one another. No fixed hierarchy of the faith in general existed. Aside from Jesus Christ Himself of course. People travelled little, and those who did travel, did so either alone, or in small groups.
JOAOBUNITAO 9 months ago
Comment removed
JOAOBUNITAO 1 year ago
for a better understanding, watch the video' my catholic faith- why are priests called father?' and you will have your answer.
orionkobet 1 year ago
omg you serpents ! you twist the word of god! "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" please make a video explaining this sense you pray to mary it says in plain words what excuse will your serpen brainwashed minds going to think of ? seriously make a video trying to explain it
JOAOBUNITAO 1 year ago
@JOAOBUNITAO Christ is the only mediator between God and man. however, there is no reason why He does not let us share in that role (as in one person praying for another). if that were so, then anyone asking a person to pray for them would be blasphemous. but it's thankfully not the case. Mary is not the end result of our prayers; she carries them to God the same way you pray for someone who asked for prayers.
ddrandguitar03 9 months ago
@ddrandguitar03 catholic teaching CLEARLY GIVES MARY THE TITLE MEDIATRIX thats so please ...um let me ask you something do every priest in the catholic church tell that to their catholic followers to say that ? i mean ...that argument is ignorant and you clearly did not put much thought in it before you said that there is an obvious difference !! because when you ask somebody to pray for you you ask them to pray to JESUS to talk to god your asking somebody in earth to pray for you
JOAOBUNITAO 9 months ago
@ddrandguitar03 therefore when you pray for someone BUT WHEN YOU DO you still use jesus as a mediator but asking for someone to pray for you and they are already in heaven means your making them a mediator because they are already in heaven and their sins have been absolved so they can speak directly before a rightious god!! and that is blasphamy !! you just took jesus right out the picture and he serves the same role as mary and she has the same power mary cannot help you get into heaven!
JOAOBUNITAO 9 months ago
@ddrandguitar03 mary cannot hear the prayers of a billion people at the same time what do you take her for?? surely only GOD CAN perform such a task first you need to stop being ignorant when you have access to knowledge first its clear you don't know what the bible meant when it said mediator read it to get it explained then read WHY we need a mediator once you have done these things find out what "ONLY " means then you will see by calling mary "co-mediator" is blasphamy
JOAOBUNITAO 9 months ago
We are to use our heads And obviously He diddn't say it for no reason so If we use common sense we should not call priests such things i'm pretty sure he was reffering to one thing and it seemed to be directed to a future tense as a warning.GOD has no Idle Words he means somebody to not be called it so people better use their heads and stop calling priests Father for we are in a new covanant now read hebrews 8 the OT isn't our covanant we drink of the new wine nor do we have idols or statues.
korzon 1 year ago
its amazing to me that people have not snapped out of this organized religion spell yet. 2010 going on 2011 and they still don't get it.
ChrisKnight22 1 year ago
@ChrisKnight22 They never will get it, and neither will you.
TenderTrap86 11 months ago
brother do not be proud yourself better look the real father to forgive your sin no man worthy to forgive your sin jesus christ is your holy high prist go with jesus christ he is near to you pop john is just a man he need also to nelt and bow down before jesus christ he is sinner also he can,t forgive you.and besides pop john worship idol and man made statue like hindu always do.do not worship mary nor saint have faith in holy trinity in the name of jesus u shall be save,
kawasoti1 1 year ago
Talk atcha' later!
BrotherAlphonsusMary 1 year ago
Hey guys, I've had a blast this morning, but you have not even come close to debunking the Catholic church. I'm going to work now but I will eagerly await your replies and we can continue this useless circular merry-go round posting until you answer my questions about who ultimately has authority to interpret scripture. Do you?Do I? Who says what a particular passage means? Why do the Methodists differ from the Wesleyans, who differ from the Luthersna who differ from the. etc,etc. Get my point?
BrotherAlphonsusMary 1 year ago
@BrotherAlphonsusMary In closing, Jesus DID establish the "original" Church. But the "Catholic" church (meaning "Universal") has been perverted by Rome! The Book of Acts records a very Penecostal style Church! Jeremiah said the Word is like a FIRE inside that can not be contained! (Jeremiah 20:9) and King David says to SHOUT to the Lord! CRY OUT His praise! Praise Him w/ BANGING CYMBALS! Not all this solemn DEAD hymns! There's no life in Catholic song! There's no joy! It's becuz HE is not there!
free2bfierce 1 year ago
@BrotherAlphonsusMary "Why doth this man (Catholic Priests) speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but GOD ONLY."
JOAOBUNITAO 1 year ago
@JOAOBUNITAO then what was the purpose of giving the Apostles the Holy Spirit and the authority (the Apostles) to bind/loose sins? try again.
ddrandguitar03 9 months ago
St.Paul felt a fatherly affection for those he brought to life through the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And he had no problem with appropriating this title to himself. How would you respond to this then, if we are not supposed to call anyone on earh 'father' Was St. Paul wrong?
BrotherAlphonsusMary 1 year ago
We have these reference in scripture as well: 1 Thessalonians 2:11 "For you know that we dealt with each of you as a father deals with his own children" and 1 Timothy 1:2 "To Timothy my true son in the faith: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord." and Titus 1:4 "To Titus, my true son in our common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior." Sound familiar to you?
BrotherAlphonsusMary 1 year ago
In continuing to wait I would like to call your attention to this in scripture: 1 Corinthians 4:14-15 "I am not writing this to shame you, but to warn you, as my dear children. 15 Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel." How is it contradictory for a priest or minister to have spiritual children, when St. Paul himself did. Surely it should have been forbidden to call St. Paul Father, right?
BrotherAlphonsusMary 1 year ago
@BrotherAlphonsusMary um, st. paul? this is typical specualtion from catholics. free2bfierce you are totally biblically correct. they deny the truth because they have been so indoctrinated. you, free, have been blessed enough to break free of this man made garbage. lets pray that one day they willl be too. this is not an arguement that either one of you is right. that's the whole point. man can not be trusted.. only Christ. be blessed, both of you!
HotBoyRandom 1 year ago
@HotBoyRandom Speculation from Catholics? Read the verses I quoted below, or do you deny scripture? Like I said. Protestants typically will take verses out of context, twisting them to suit their own agenda. This is nothing new and only serves their own man-made religions. How do you explain the tens of thousands of different denominations that teach different things? Your silence on this question is deafening.
BrotherAlphonsusMary 1 year ago
@BrotherAlphonsusMary I'm going to chime in here. There are not TENS of thousands of denominations. There are 14 major and 207 sub-denominations. VERY unsettling, i agree, but it doesn't mean that Catholism is right by that annoying fact. Just like we do not have a "God of the gaps" because Science can only go so far (As Athiests say). The truth is, "religion" is the Old Convenant and Jesus brought us into the new and redeemed us!
free2bfierce 1 year ago
Interesting little anecdotal note just to pass the time waiting for your reply. Did you know that John Wesley, the founder of Methodism, was known not only as "Mr. Wesley" but also as "Father Wesley," and "the Shakers called their matriarch 'Mother' and their male leaders 'Father.'"? Just thought I would run that by you to see what you thought.
BrotherAlphonsusMary 1 year ago
IT seems that we will never get anywhere until we answer the question of the interpretation if scripture. I invite all protestants to the table. Why is it that there are many different doctrines floating about and each one of them says they have the truth? Isn't this a scandal to the rest of the world? Why do we Christians bicker among ourselves? Why is your denomination's interpretation right and another one wrong? Answer me this or else we can forget about any meaningful discussion here.
BrotherAlphonsusMary 1 year ago
The voice explaining this is not reading it in the context of what Christ said!! He said "Do not call anyone on Earth "father"" and YES it was Spiritual, but not in a way of descendants (Abraham). In context He also said Do not call anyone Master ("Rabbi") or "Teacher". These are all SPIRITUAL titles that assert a "Spiritual ADVISOR" .. and "INTERCESSOR" or someone to revere as being "above" you spiritually. We go to God directly now, NOT through a Catholic Priest! They rob of intimacy w/ God!
free2bfierce 1 year ago
@free2bfierce Why is it that protestants selectively say that only priests cannot be called father? We all know that when Jesus said "father abraham" he was not father in the sense that God is Father, and so when we call the priest father, we do not mean that he is a father in the same sense that God is Father. All fatherhood flows from God the Father, so this is why your personal interpretation of scripture is wrong my friend. I invite you to pray to be more open to the truth.
BrotherAlphonsusMary 1 year ago
@BrotherAlphonsusMary You are my brother in Christ. I am sorry if I am coming across harsh! I BEG of you (seriously) to forgive me. It's just that I was Catholic and it was BECAUSE of that fact that I was lied to and never knew that I had to be "born again" and "saved" to enter Heaven like Jesus said! The Church teaches NOTHING about these requirements! "Born-Again"? Catholics look at you like you just spoke Latin! Sad! I love you my brother.. please leave man and come to Christ!
free2bfierce 1 year ago
@free2bfierce Hey man, I am 'Born again' You left the true church. You left Jesus Christ Himself in the Eucharist. You are the one who needs to come back to the church that Jesus founded. In your heart you know I am right, and you may not be ready now, but when you are, you will remember what I said. I will be praying for you by brother. Please do not turn your back to Jesus. Come back to the church.
BrotherAlphonsusMary 1 year ago
@BrotherAlphonsusMary I did not leave Jesus! I left MAN! "Stop trusting in man!" God says in Isaiah!!!! You are LITERALLY trusting in man! Priests that molest boys may not be the "majority" and only ignorance would allow me to think that, but it IS enough of a constant evil that PROVES the bad fruit in ur MAN MADE religion based ENTIRELY off specualtion!!! I love U and care about U too much to let u follow this abomination of a doctrine into God's wrath! Mary, statues, saints? ULTIMATE idolatry!
free2bfierce 1 year ago
@free2bfierce And I love you in Christ too much to allow you to stew in your hate and delusions about the Church. Come home to Jesus. Let go of your hate and be filled with the Holy Spirit. Learn what the church really teaches and you will see what I am talking about. I'm sorry that you never had a personal relationship with Jesus while Catholic (u still are by the way) but I can tell you that I have a very deep personal relationship with Him. I love him very much and love the church he founded.
BrotherAlphonsusMary 1 year ago
@BrotherAlphonsusMary Abraham was a Spriitual Father (descendant).. this is NOT what Jesus is talking about. Put it in context. He also said do not have a (spiritual) master, rabbi, or teacher! Another words.. we are all THE SAME! He is the "go-to" nto men! Even Protestant Pastors need to check themselves and make sure that they don't become mediators and rob people of the DIRECT intimacy we are to have with God that Jesus died for! I love you brother!
free2bfierce 1 year ago
@free2bfierce Of course we are all the same in dignity, but how is it contradictory to have some sort of spiritual guide in life? How is it that parents can guide their children to good choices, and they are not usurping God's authority? Why does it have to be contradictory to have your pastor and my priest be spiritual guides for us, as long as we say that their authority ultimately stems from God just like a parent's authority ultimately stems from God? How does this not make sense to you?
BrotherAlphonsusMary 1 year ago
umm...excuse me, but if we are not supposed to call any man 'father' why does Jesus refer to 'father' Abraham in the bible, and why do you call your dad 'father'? If you object to priests being called father, please explain the usage of 'father' Abraham and calling your dads your 'father.'
BrotherAlphonsusMary 1 year ago
Catholics have a "Family" theme going in our church: we have "Father", "Mother" as in mother Teressa, "Brother", which are Monks, and "Sisters" as in Nuns. I believe this does not contradict the "call no man father" verse at all. And as the Catechism says: "No man is father as God is Father." and THAT is what we keep in mind for that verse.
AtomicMonster454 1 year ago
@AtomicMonster454 You are right. I don't know why this is so hard for them to fathom. If they can call Abraham 'father' and their own dads 'father', There's no problem with the priest being called 'father' I have never understood the logic of selectively being only offended with the priest being called 'father' and not Abraham or their own dads. It is a very clear contradiction.
BrotherAlphonsusMary 1 year ago
People who dump on the catholic church for the abuse scandal DO NOT CARE FOR CHILDREN at all; its just another opportunity to throw rocks at the church.
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Repent of your false "concern" at once.
AtomicMonster454 1 year ago
I love how the Protestants are scrambling to somehow challenge this. They'll make any stupid argument to get their own following.
CatholicCross1393 1 year ago
This vid is trash, first the parable Jesus spoke of was about the tribes of the Isrealites, notice Abraham was there father and if you finish it you see the man had brothers and Jesus said the man's family had Moses and the prophet, learn the scriptures man before you preach false doctrine. No man is called father save for your father in heaven, the family is a holy institution there by one could call his bio father, father.
kheyos232 2 years ago
@kheyos232 Exactly! I want to know how they respond to this.
BrotherAlphonsusMary 1 year ago
there are so many contridictions in teh bible my friggin head is spining. and i think the preists and popes and cardinals are just like the scribes and pharisess that jesus was referring to. people adore them as if the were infallable men. they sinna dn fall short like veryone else. yet you see people bowing to them kissing their hands .....trash!
B4mytyme 2 years ago
all you catholic women who leave your kids with fallable men, just because they have have exalted themselves with names like "Father", "Reverend", "Brother", "Bishop", or "Rabbi" are all deserving of HELL FIRE! YOU STUPID IGNORANT GREEDY WOMEN!
ludai89 2 years ago
Another good point is that if Matthew 23:9 is taken literally, then I can't call my earthl dad "father," either! So I think this is one one of those verses that needs to be taken into a proper context. And if that context means "don't call anyone your god other than the Father in heaven," that makes sense.
MrC921 2 years ago
We are all one! We are all priests. (1 Corinthians 12, Romans 12:4, 1 Timothy 2:5, 1 Peter 2 :9, Revelation 5:10)
free2bfierce 2 years ago
What was said in this video about the Pharisees completely misguided. They NEVER left God, the Father out of the equatiion. In fact it was quite the opposite. They PREACHED only the Father and in doing so disregarded the Son. This is what Jesus warned them about. The warning given be Christ about not calling a man on earth Father is to not enable spiritual pride by allowing someone else to be a "priest" when we ALL are redeemed through Jesus and can come before God.
free2bfierce 2 years ago
Matt. 23 is about the pharisees and scribes holding up themselves and verse 9 is like Jesus saying not to call anyone your father on earth. There may be exceptions but it is clear to me that it was because they liked to be acknowledged as special.
The real issue is that we are all of a royal priesthood (1 Peter 2:9).
Now does anyone want to say that is only spiritual as though you did not even have a physical change in your nature? All Christians are called not just a few.
SRobacker 2 years ago
The royal priesthood is not the issue. What is not universally recognized in protestantism is the liturgical priesthood. That is something primarily misunderstood or not recognized in non-liturgical forms of Christian belief. It was very evident to the early Christians and the apostolic faith of today (Catholic and Orthodox).
haojiesheng 2 years ago
"liturgical priesthood". Can you present scripture to support this function in the New Testament?
free2bfierce 2 years ago
@free2bfierce Can you present scripture to support the Trinity? Nope, but we still believe it. To support Sola Scriptura? Nope. It only says that "ALL scripture is good for teaching and reproof" It doesn't say "ONLY scripture" Sola Scriptura itself is not even biblically based, so I would be careful with asking for proofs in scripture.
BrotherAlphonsusMary 1 year ago