You greeks, or as I called you .... you simultaneously declare and Greeks and Macedonians. Macedonians are Macedonians .... as you just remind you one Gay nation .... so now I remember how you cried Gay greek nation. :)))
Вие грците или како ли ве викаа.... не можете истовремено да се декларирате и како грци и како Македонци. Македонците си се Македонци.... колку ли само да ве потсетам вие сте само една педерска нација.... па да сега и ми текна како ве викаа ‚‚педерска грчка нација‘‘. :)))
.od 1450 do 1913 osmalisko carstvo TURSKO, .nasite MAKEDONCI sve imaja i crkva i jazik i kultura.od 1913. GRCKO FASISTICKO ROPSTVO DO DEN DENES. od 1913 makedonci pravoslavni kristijani zivejeja zajedno so vas GRCI FASISTI,.. ZEDOVTE 51% OD
posle 1920 se ispecati bukvar, GO PRIZAJA MAKEDONSKIOT JAZIK I KIRILSKO PISMO.ALI TOJ BUKVAR NE GO PUSTIJA VO FUNKCIJA, TAMU NEKOJ DIKTATOR GRCKI, REKOL MALCINSVATA NE TREBAAT DA IMAAT PRAVO,NA MAKEDONCITE VO 1945 IM REKOJA. DOBRO GO PRIZNAVAME MAKEDONSKIOT JAZIK I KIRILSKOTO PISMO braka kristijani , BORETE SE SO NAS PROTIV OKUPATOROT,SITE
3.MAKEDONCI SE BOREJA ZA DEMOKRATSKA?? GRCIJA, POGINAAX?x? NAROD MAKEDONCI ZA NIV FASISTI, I POSLE TOA GENOZIT EXSODUS IZVRSIJA. se pretpostavuva 800 iljadi, do1 milion,MAKEDONCITE VO MASOVNI GROBNICI GI ZAKOPAJA BES IME BES NISTO,, NA PROTERANITE MAKEDONCI OD EGEJSKA MAKEDONIJA. NASELIJA NEKOJ SI PLEMINJA OD TURSKA PRAVOSLAVNI OD SEKADE NA SVETOV,
4.MAKEDONSKIOT NAROT,,DECA ZENI,IM GI MENAJA IMINATA OD GROBVI ORAJA KOPAJA, KIRILICATA,JAZIK SVE STO E SLAVJANSKA KULTURA UNISTIJA, I GROBOVITE OD NASITE DEDOVCI GI ISKOPAJA IZORAJA REKI PLANINI IMINJA GRDOVI SELA.I NA CRKVITE IKONITE IM GI IZBISAJA KIRILICA.
5.SVE IZMENAJA.,IM ZABRANIJA JAVNO DA ZBORUVAAT MAJCIN JAZIK DO 1985.god,DO DEN DENES NE MOZAT PROTERANITE MAKEDONCI DA SE VRATAT TAMU.NE GI PUSTAAT DA VLEZAT. VO GRCIA. NA NAJBLISKITE NA GROBOT DA POJDAT, DA IM ZAPALAT SVEKA, NA TATKO MAJKA BRAT,,TOLKU ZLOSTORSTVO NE SNE VIDELE od nikogo KAKO OD NIV. MALAKA MALAKA FASITI,NA MESTATA KADE STO ZIVEEA NASI MAKEDONCI. NASELIJA NEKOJ PRAVOSLAVNI OD TURSKA AFRIKA OD CEL SVET,,, ,
6.TOLKU ZLOSTORSTVO VO ISTORIJATA NA MAKEDOZMOT NE SNE VIDELE.TOA E CELTA NIVNA PROTIV SLAVJANSKATA KULTURA,NIE E IMAME TAA KULTURA 1400 GOD. I JA SAKAME.. POSTO BALKANOT SLAVJANITE GO KOLONIZIRALE.ALI NAS NIKOJ NE NI NAPRAVIL
GENOCIT EXSODUS..DO SEGA NIKOGAS VO ISTORIJATA........I GROBOVI NIKOJ NE OTKOPUVAL OD NAJ BLISKITE....
NIKOJ NE NE PROTERAL VO ISTORIATA NAS OD NASITE VEKOVNI OGNISTA......SAMO OVIE JUST MALAKA FASISTI...
7.DODEKA SONCE GREEE CE IMA MAKEDONCI I VO SRCE I DUSA ,,,I NIKOGAS NEMAT DA BIDAT GRCIIIII,,,,,,,,,,,IAKO IAKO IAKO GI
MANIPULIRATE SO DRUG JAZIK .ALI TIE MAKEDNOCI PAK OD GENERACIJA NA GENERACIJA CE PRENESUVAAT DEKA SE samo makedonci nisto drugo. MAKEDONCIIIIIIII i nivniot simbol (BOG SONCE) I DEKA NE SE GRCIIII......I NIKOGAS VAS JUST MALAKA NEMAT DA
Vardar Macedonia (Macedonian and Serbian: Вардарска Македонија, Vardarska Makedonija; Bulgarian: Вардарска Македония, Vardarska Makedoniya) is the north-western area of the Macedonia region. The borders of the area approximately coincide with modern day Republic of Macedonia. The name references the river Vardar, which flows through the area.
i let u have the last words,and do not plan to continue playing this verbal ping-pong.
unless u write some bull....tthat will make me react.
briefly about ur question-there were many schools and people were sending their kids sometimes in different schools because they schooled their kids for free-propaganda machinery.
so one father would have his one son in greek school (for free) and the other in the serbian school (for free).
also,dont forget the abolition of the slavonic archibishop and the grekophone presence since its abolition-greekl priests telling peasants to take their kids to greek schoold (even though they do not speak the language) or else--u know,no holly communion,one can go to hell if they betray the roman church etc.
so slavophione peasants listen...or not if they see trought it,and so the confusion starts.
about greek national plans, i wouldn't go there,but yes,there probably was a national plan.
when did it start exactly,i wouldn't know.
those peasants were slavophines who didn't speak greek,and listened to slavopnic services at least until the abolishion of the ochrid arhiepiscopy in 18 century.
This is an assumption based in the notion of a national character of ohrid archiepiscopy.
But it had never been a national church,neither the patriarchate of Konstantinoulopis.
The original question was about Greek churches in Macedonia,Greek schools and pro-Greek national movement before 1913.
After all Greek was the second language spoken by many slavic speaking orthodox christians in Macedonia and the language of an arising class bourgoisin many cities of Southern Macedonia
im talking end of 18 begining of 19 century. england had interest in splitting ottoman empire,but it didn't have interest into recreating romii consiusness-which was latent in big part of the region,ibncluding macedonia.
soory mate but this is the most simplistic excuse i have ever heard.
According to you In the era of nationalism some Macedonians funded schools to have their children "brainwashed".The only schools for free were the Bulgarian ones.
It reminds me of NOF schools during Greek civil war when some spions of Skopje wanted to forbid Greek language from the schools and Macedonians resisted
people didn't "brainwash" their children-they educated them.
i told you,for macedonians at that tim,e who still practiced that non-exclusivist form of multiple identities,it was absolutely fine to exercise them and naviogate with them ion order to get most out of the situation.
jews did the same many times in history,it is common for peopkle to have a set of identities...these identities became more conflicting as the macedonian issue grew and aspirations grew
this is the period when the segregation started and people started to be divided on basis of alegiances.
before that,those people were one and brothers.
this episodes happen in history of all people for one reason or another.
just as the anty-colonial movement gave birth to the postcollonial nations around the world,the friction between the states was also one of the initiators-an important one-to the birth of the idea of modern macedonian nation (in an ethnic exclusivist sense).
in time that idea matured and its expression was becaming clearer and clearer.
the result are we-ethnic macedonians who do not have alegiances to any of the neighbouring states,call our language macedonian (as locals in aegean macedonian do too0 and identify only with the name "macedonians" because the othger sets of identifications -romii- a church-political one, bulgarians-as a linguistic etc...were not already in that meaning and their usage has changed.
the ochrid arhiepiscopy was not a national church!!!
where did i say that???again,you take something out of your sleave and ascribe it to me, and go on arguing with that.
in that case,you don't need m,e to argue.
stand in front of a mirror,and argue with ur self!
ochrid archiepiscopy had a linguistic function,not national.
it worked for bisantian empire and its purpose was to extend the multylinguistic bisantian commonwelt into the newly emerging slavonic powers in europe.
You are trying hard to find nations or signs of a national-like idemtity in a precapitalist era.
In this context an aposteriori attempt to invent an national-like Ohrid church is ridicilus.The same applies for all those who claim the Patriarchate of Istanbul as a Greek church
riight...and when greeks forbitten the makedonika even in the homes of slavophone macedonians,these pro-ghreek slavophones also rejoiced,i suppose?they were like, yey, now we are forbittemn to speak pur mother thong at home, that is so great, now we will become coplitely "hellebized", how cool!
redgreek,there are accounts of greek priests asking villagers to sign and swear in front of god that they will never ever speak their native language.
so it is not just metaxas,it was coordinated action with the pro-greek churches to eliminate the slavophine language from macedonia.
it is my business because i have family there. they are my people and as i said,50 % of our diaspora is from there+20% of macedonians in rep.macedonia.
if u as a tax paying citizen want to learn the local slavic mother language in greek insitution (because you have every right to do so if you want,as guaranteed by any international conventions that greece has signed), CAN YOU?
WOULD YOU??
if not,why not?
cause if you don't,your children might not know the language of ur forfathers,the songs,the legends,the stories.
also,WHAT IS THE NAME YOU CALL THAT LANGUAGE? IT'S NOT "SLAVSKI" FOR SURE.
The first university in Balkans was the Univ of Athens founded in 1835.Famous graduates of it were Gligor Parlicev (Grigorios Stavridis) and Dimitar Mladenov (Dimitrios Miladenidis)
If some of the peoploe calling them selves Macedonians in greece question their Greekenss,they have every right to do so and identify with us, IF they ever see fit...OR NOT.
you dont have to repeat one thinbg over and over if it is understood.
if your greek identity is socialy constructed,that is fine with me and i accept it.
if some aegean macedonians do not feel greek,and reject that social construct,aligning to our deffinition of being ethnic macedonians-they should also have the right to it.
how does this go against any of your logic,please explain.
no qualifier is needed if we do not give it to our selves.
youy are greek macedonian,i am ethnic macedonia.
that is enough of qualification for me,andf trust me,it aint gona go further thenm that,i mean,BE VERY VERY VERY ASSURED THAT IT WONT GO FURTHER THAN THAT. our language is macedonian in un,and our ethnicity is also macedonian.
we do not even negotiate about anything like that.
we are ethnic macedonians wether u like that or not egeec.
i can´t beliebe that!!!they speak the greek language and say that they are "macedonians"!!!prodotes!!!!they want to create an anti-greek propaganda!!!
Cyrillic language started from Macedonia.Kiril was from Vodensko.Learn history please !
The pseudoanncienthellenichysteria is well known to the world ! .Your end is near ! World knows that you steal the history of ancient greeks, that unfortunately true that by DNA confirming you can't be considered as descendants of ancient greeks even in a low level...
cyrillus was greek from thessaloniki and missioner of the byzantine empire...
you should learnd some history..
besides...
what ''cyrillus'' means in your language???....
hellenism is know to the hole world as the value that offered the most gentle virtues all over the world...you are the hysteric by stealing greek and bulgarian history...
you should be ashame and your end is close....
as for our dna...it exist all over the mediterrenean balkans black sea etc etc....
Ha ha ha not from SOLUN stupid !!!. Why you want to modify history ?.Take the facts straight, don't be afraid.
Kiril was from Voden.
You have the right to be self-determined as Hellenes, although it's not genetically true, and even not acceptable by the rest of the world, which calls you fairly greeks...
...However your rights end, from the time you want to usurp other ethnicities, like Macedonians, Aromanians, Turks, e.t.c.Your arrogance and propaganda from your own government its obvious. It's useless for me even to try to prove it...
Ore malakes koloboulgaroslavoi tis Florinas, mas kanoun kai tous eksipnous ta zoa, eprepe na eiche ginei kamia genoktonia to 40-50 na eichame isichasei kai ap'autous..
well you renounced the romii identity and became "greek".
i didnt answer your onthological question on the two brithers with sam mother.
yes,they can belong to different ethnic groups upon their choosing,i agree.
but it doesnt mean that they are not the sons of the same mother (macedonia) and that they do not have the right to the same geneology and history up to that point.
and it doen't mean that they have to hate or disrespect each other.
the only country that tries to monopolise anything rekated to makedonia,its history people etc,is greece.
theya re afraid that the "makedonism" ,the macedonian national consciusness movement will spread again among their slavophone populations,and want to "separate" the norther makedonians in every way,especialy by stigmatising us as "dirty slavobulgars"..lol
calling our selves makedonians is not monopolising it because we don not fiorbit by any means anybody else to call them selves that--for whatever it means to them--ethnic greek or bulgarian slavophine macedonian.
what it means to us if qualitatively different--ethnicity.
Greek mean that noone can call himself Greek outside Greek nation.Exclusively Greek speaking muslims for example who were exchanged do Turkey had never called themselves Romii and Greek and their langauge wasn't Greek or Romeika but Cretan or whatever.
yes but which was the dominant identity is that precapitalist era?
Macedonian meant something very different in Ottoman empire than today.
People didn't intermarry not due to different identities but to regional isolation.
Otherwise all Romii consider themselves one thing.Thats why if you want to talk about ethnicities in precapitalist era (risky in my mind) the most prevalent was a Romii ethnicity.
Thessaloniki,Kastoria,Florina were not invented in 1913 as a nationalist version of history claims.
It includes the greek names and the slavic names of churches in Ohrid,the Greek and slavic inscriptions of icons in Saint Naum (Sveti Naum) in albanian borders.
It includes also the greek inscriptions in Saint Dimitrios (Sveti Dimitria) in Bitola (a term derived from Monastery for those who know)
that you say the church services were in greek is hard for me to accept--it simply doesnt make any sense.
macedonia was the world center of slavonic literacy.
the ohrid archiepiscopy was part of the konstantinopolis church and many archiepiscops were greeks,while the language of the services was all in slavonic!
voden and kostur are just a day walk away from ohrid,where the slavic university was.
Your argument means that there should not have been churches in Macedonia with greek inscriptions,greek icons church services in Greek before 1913 or in a different version before 1767.
We know very well that all churches in Kastoria, from Byzantine era, Thessaloniki, Veria where Saint Paul taugh the New Testament in Macedonia and in many others cities were Greek,Greek icons,Greek inscriptions and church services in Greek.
you're telling me that you giuys had greek language churches even though ochrid archiepiscopy was two hours walking distance from you and was made by bisantium for the purpose of education slavophons in slavonic including churches. offcourse they were romii,we all were as members of bisantium.
"romii macedonians" and "bulgarian vmrovci" is also just a construct,and you're naive ur self to think that neo-constructed greeks were all flowers and daisies to slavophones who were "not affiliated" with "vmrovci".
in 1924 the greek published school books and the censuses were not bulgarian propaganda eh?
even that was not allowed then,and you're proud of greek "what" precisely?
priest teodosia gologanov,georgia puleski and numerous international macedonian ethnci societies that sprouted in end of 19 century...inclding the diaspora (in usa you have people slavonic people declaring macedonians,besides greeks,bulgarians and serbs).
for example yugoslavia,it was a nation...but withing it,there were many ethnic groups that have had a very ambivalent common history and ambivalent perceptiopns of each other---croats-serbs,makos-serbs,etc.
it was everything you say it should be for a nation---common market,the best economy in easter europe and a high standard (up to the 80ties higher then the one in greece),and yet,it fell appart because of ethnic feuds.
so,marx is great to explain tendencies,but there are many variables here
It wasn't a nation actually.Nations co-exist in the same federal state because there was a federal state bourgois class that counterbalanced the regional differences of local class bourgois.
The need for a construction of economic,social and political power in local level was fundamental and not finally counterbalanced by the construction in the federal level.
The regional differences had not been reduced after 45 years of a common market and there had not been formed a unified Jugoslav class bourgois with elimination of the local ones.
ok,but the ethnicities were there before the yugoslav burgois class formed.
also,it is not only "burgois class" that can foster national awareness and national awakening.
that is way too black and white.
national awakenings can be trigered by many other events, like the anty -colonial movement in africa and the pacific states, when it trigered national awakenings in countries that has zero bugouis class,but the locals were opposing the colonial powers.
how ethnic groups name them selves doesn't follow somebodies flawed "logic" or hopes or "feelings"...like when greeks say that 2million ethnic macedonians hurt their feelings and we should change our very name.
it doesn't work like that mate,it never ever has.
people choose their name based on many complex historical,sociological,ethnic factors that have notning to do with "redgreek" feelings.
so don't go there-no sociological -anthropological theory will support your stand,trust me.
How ethnic groups name themselves today is a totally different issue than 200 years ago when there was no capitalism,no class bourgois,no national sense in the words like Greek,Bulgarian etc.
These terms have gradually adopted a national meaning in the last 2 centuries.If you think that you, the assuming "macedonian" are the only nation existed before 18 th century there are no modern sociologist,historian,scholars to accept these issues.
i've been talking about this several times-we know how people defines and have finaly relkeased those constructs from narrow exclusivist interpretations fabricated in 19 century offices.
people used many identites to navigate trough different situations,and there was no such emotional charge like there is today,for sure.
there is absolutely no any monopolisation on anything of macedonian identity.
the only ones who try to monopolise the macedobnian identity,its historical symbols and everything that goes with it,and in same time,destroy the slavophone macedonian culture,is modern greece.
not us.
we do not "monopolise" anything. we are just existing as what we are in the inalienable human right to exist as what we are.
No my communist grandfather fought for a socialist,democratic Greece and for Macedonians as an integral part of Greek nation.
He wasn't a spion of Tito and his gang in Skopje,neither a Bulgarophile instantly transformed into a pro-Jugo separatist like Peiov,Keramitziev and Dimevski in 1945.Those separatist figures are responsible fotr the exile and the de-nationalization of Macedonians living in FYROM.
few hundred years ago,bulgarian meant slavophone,and one could be bulgarian,romii and macedonian at the same time. they had different meanings at those times,that is why you have people from kosovo written as "bulgarians"-it meant-south slavophones.
in 19 century it became exclusivist ethnic deffinition,as the others and caused stirr within the homogenous slavophone macedonian population.
stop playing on the bulgarian card, i canb also play on the traitor card and call you a traitor for killing ur own slavophione macedonians for a brainwashed cause.
your words show zero understanding of the complexities.
"probulgarian" macedobians simply wanted to preserve their language that they were proud of,unlike you.
should i lower the discussion on this stupid level and call you a traitor of your own mother thong? some other mother 's language is more dear to you then ur own?
That's why the slavic speaking Macedonians were separated into Romii Macedonians and Bulgarian Macedonians(VMROvci).The term Bulgarian had already adopted a national sense.The same for the term Romii.
Your identity is the by-product of a division inside Bulgarian national movement
redgreek---there are no "slavic sleaking macedonians" in greece today,it is a "very very very small minoirity",we dont knwo its number,and it is not supported on any lkevel,children do not speak the makedonika and they do not study it anywhere.
it is discouraged everywhere.
so, "romii due", that is afraid to even call the cities into the names ur ancestors called them-good luck negating 2million people.
soon,borders will open,no visas,the natural flow of people will be restored once again.
it is my business if i am blood related to thjese people,and most of us in rep. macedonia ARE blood related and we have many cousins and relatives there.
not mentioning our proportionaly big diaspora-it is 505 aegean.
u r unexiatant part of the "greek nation" that did everything toi erase you as slavophone population-especuialy the language.
i live with it,what should i do otherwise?
we're dancing those dances too,by the way. and sing in makedonika.
ur5 identity is result of assimilation,murder and destruction of the slavophone culture in greece,and now-you as slavophone macedonioan are proiud of that? proud that ur children do not speak the language of ur forefathers?great stuff u got there!
keep being proud of that,as long as ur "greek" u have nothing to worry about.
what ur saying about "selective reinventions of traditions" goes especialy for modern greeks who "extend their traduitions to the blah blah".
so apply it to ur slef first before u try to deconstruct me.
my culture and identity is my culture and identity-anderson ot Hobs do not negate anything related to this and that proicess exists everywehere-new zealand maoritanga movement comes to mind,for example.
so start with ur self before u get all "intelectuial" on me.
The strengthening of regional differences in the context of global economic crisis allowed the strategy of seccesion to become dominant for those classes bourgois (croatian and slovenian) that had already showed advantages in international market and didn't want to spend funds for lesser developped regions like Kosovo,Serbia,Yugoslavian Macedonia.etc.
In that time Gilgorov voted in favor for greater autonomy together with Croatia and Slovenia furtherly promotimg the road to seccesion.
They weren't that brutal as Bulgarians vmrovci you know.
Both in late 19thcentury-early 20th century and during WWII, Bulgarians either as VMROvci either OHRANA members commited terrible crimes against Romii Makedonci.
Are you kidding me?
In Greek census of 1928 82.000 ex-Exarchists were counted as Macedonoslavs whereas those affiliated with Patriarchate were counted as Greeks.
Do you think that Greece or others find out Macedonia in 1991?
We are all old in Balkans and very well known to each other.
In Greek census of 1928 it is mentioned Macedonoslavs.The definition of ethnicity is debated as you might know.If you want to talk about ethnicity especially in precapitalist era it is very risky and does not hold water.
if "macedonian" question is 150 years old, the neo-greek is not much older either. it has some 50 years more,to the best of counts.
the real issue started in the open when the greek government in the 90ties decided to inflame its people on grounds of "ancient history" to prove exclusivity on the name of macedonia-preventiong expelled aegean macedonians to return and to prevent the assimilated aegeans like you from reverting back to their macedonian identity like they did during the civil war.
i disagree--we are not very well known to each other--or better said,after the national awakening we see each other trough some really stupid illogical points of view--fostered and invented by the brainwashing political powers who play with the sheeple (sheep+people) trough using terms like "ethnic exclusivity", "ethnic purity", "exclusivity of ancient history", monopolising history and taking it and its symbols out of contexts (both ancient and mideaval-bisantian/bulgarian/serbian/ottoman).
well you had problkems with anything "macedonia" in 1990ties suddenly--you know, the logic goes like--you spe4ak slavonic,ergo you are "slavs" (for whatever that means), ergo you are not ancient macedonians who were greeks ergo you can not be macedonians today in any form because ancient macedonians were greeks ie we are the exclusively and only ancient ones because we speak greek.
heck,by this logic you are "skopian" too.
and that was part of the equasion--to scare potential ethjnodissent ..
but redgreek,even in skopje church icons are in greek.
it was the language of christianity,serbian and bulgarian kings had greek as official besides their languages,just as for example french was official in russia in 19 century.
that doesnt say that the service was in greek.
agios naumos's job was to perform the liturgies in slavonic and do all the translations in slavonic just so slavophines from kastoria and all over makedonia and much wider can take services in slavonic.
do not agree because it doesnt make any sense under the planet. slavonic speaking people had slavonic services in order to understand them.
in bisantia and turkey this was most common thing because these empires were not burdened by ethno-linguistic divisions,uncontrary-they tried to supress them.
cyril and methodius made the whole slavonic literacy movement to have slavophones in bisantia assimilated into the bisantian commonwealth,and trough them,to influence the emerging slavophone kingdoms
so the thing is,why would they go trough all this effort in mideval times only to have churches in massively slavonic regions in greek? the greek liturgy was the problem--the slavonic liturgy with greek some greek was the solution- to this day macedonian monastic church services are very similar.
in the slavonic parts it was in slavonic since the days of cyril and methodius.
why did they translate all that stuff in slavonic?
for whom? exacytly for people in lerin,voden,ohrid,bitola,kozani,kostur,solun,etc...to assimilate them and make them subjects of the bisantian empire.
check data on the ohrid archibishopy and its jurisdictions-where the jurtisdictions spaned-chancer are-but not nececarily-that the services were in slavonic.
fine,same it was in rep. of macedonia as well with small episodes of serbian and bulgarian rule which covered you as well.
bisantia-the romii did everything to assimilate slavophones by giving them exactly churches and liturgies and schools in slavonig--the ochrid university,hello?
one hour from kastoria was the fiorst slavonic university in the world. and you wre "not really slavophone slavs at the time"? whats ur point?
the slavonic university in ohrid im speaking,it was very near kostur and voden.
offcourse it was spreading slavonic literacy supported by bisantia.
the slavonic ochridarchibishopy WAS part of the konstantinopolis patriarchy,and many of the archiepiscops were greeks.
they supported the slavonic project tjem sleves,and if there were slavophones in kostur,they were normaly supported to follow liturgy on tgeir own language by the very bisantian greeks.
when i say "greeks" i just refer to grekophone romii.
it was mutlyethnic empire-there were still tribal-ethnic awarenesses inside,they were just downplayed and manipulated trough differenbt projects and mass population replacements.
what kind of resistance are you talking about?
"dirty greeks" didnt make plans to "asismilate us-it was bisantia that made plans to assimilate the slavophoines by incorporating them trough slavonic church and education.
Ther were no national identities at that time.Only aposteriori national historians want to extrapolate things and discover famous anchestors in the past.
Modern identities are the product of last 2 centuries.
The whole project of a slavonic unic is a joke.The same for any Greek univ in KOnstantinoupolis.
There were only church schools for priests.That's all.
In a multi-lingual pre-national empire like eastern Rmaic and Ottoman empire the main ideological strcture of the state was religious
noone mentioned "national identities at that time.
you keep bringing this up and the argue with ur self.
when i say uni,i don't mean "harward" but a religious school for priests-who spread literacy and different knowledge of medicine,etc...they were educated to be beakions of light and medical knowledge was also imparted.
it was as educational as it could get.
u don;'t have to say Uni,say: a big and first school for spreading slavonic literacy in the world.
жално но вистинито ,ама ова не сака да го види европска унија.UNITED MACEDONIA!!!
bato223305 1 week ago
BIG GREEK LIE IS ON THE WAY TO BE DISCOVER...
TheMrsStones 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Macedonia is a country that is Biblical mouth fast and there will be
Macedonia have their own language and culture
Macedonia for Macedonians
United Macedonia
Aegean Pirin Vardar
Fuck the Grece
Greeks are otherwise gypsy nation
makedonija41 1 month ago
Macedonia is a country that is Biblical mouth fast and there will be
Macedonia have their own language and culture
Macedonia for Macedonians
United Macedonia
Aegean Pirin Vardar
Fuck the Grece
Greeks are otherwise gypsy nation
makedonija41 1 month ago
UNITED MACEDONIA
ОБЕДИНЕТА МАКЕДОНИЈА
makedonija41 1 month ago
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MAKEDONIJA na MAKEDONCITE
makedonija41 1 month ago
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You greeks, or as I called you .... you simultaneously declare and Greeks and Macedonians. Macedonians are Macedonians .... as you just remind you one Gay nation .... so now I remember how you cried Gay greek nation. :)))
Вие грците или како ли ве викаа.... не можете истовремено да се декларирате и како грци и како Македонци. Македонците си се Македонци.... колку ли само да ве потсетам вие сте само една педерска нација.... па да сега и ми текна како ве викаа ‚‚педерска грчка нација‘‘. :)))
makedonija41 1 month ago
fuck skopian turks macedonia is hellinic you muslim fucks and skopia is a gypsie race with nothing
tisbales 4 months ago
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GREEKS,U WILL PAY WHAT U DONE TO MACEDONIA!
dShando1 7 months ago
Comment removed
dShando1 7 months ago
ΜΟΝΑΣΤΗΡΙ (ΒΙΤΟΛΑ) ΙS GREEK
xynwmapes 7 months ago
ahahahaha come and get it...scopians!
PSYBOY1984 7 months ago
Држете се, Македонци, сплотени истрајте ги грчките неправдини.
Господ е праведен!
MakedonecMacedonian 8 months ago
1.DO BOGA VISTINATA ZA NASITE MAKEDONCI...
.od 1450 do 1913 osmalisko carstvo TURSKO, .nasite MAKEDONCI sve imaja i crkva i jazik i kultura.od 1913. GRCKO FASISTICKO ROPSTVO DO DEN DENES. od 1913 makedonci pravoslavni kristijani zivejeja zajedno so vas GRCI FASISTI,.. ZEDOVTE 51% OD
darioo2312 1 year ago 3
2.MAKEDONIA.
posle 1920 se ispecati bukvar, GO PRIZAJA MAKEDONSKIOT JAZIK I KIRILSKO PISMO.ALI TOJ BUKVAR NE GO PUSTIJA VO FUNKCIJA, TAMU NEKOJ DIKTATOR GRCKI, REKOL MALCINSVATA NE TREBAAT DA IMAAT PRAVO,NA MAKEDONCITE VO 1945 IM REKOJA. DOBRO GO PRIZNAVAME MAKEDONSKIOT JAZIK I KIRILSKOTO PISMO braka kristijani , BORETE SE SO NAS PROTIV OKUPATOROT,SITE
darioo2312 1 year ago 2
3.MAKEDONCI SE BOREJA ZA DEMOKRATSKA?? GRCIJA, POGINAAX?x? NAROD MAKEDONCI ZA NIV FASISTI, I POSLE TOA GENOZIT EXSODUS IZVRSIJA. se pretpostavuva 800 iljadi, do1 milion,MAKEDONCITE VO MASOVNI GROBNICI GI ZAKOPAJA BES IME BES NISTO,, NA PROTERANITE MAKEDONCI OD EGEJSKA MAKEDONIJA. NASELIJA NEKOJ SI PLEMINJA OD TURSKA PRAVOSLAVNI OD SEKADE NA SVETOV,
darioo2312 1 year ago 2
4.MAKEDONSKIOT NAROT,,DECA ZENI,IM GI MENAJA IMINATA OD GROBVI ORAJA KOPAJA, KIRILICATA,JAZIK SVE STO E SLAVJANSKA KULTURA UNISTIJA, I GROBOVITE OD NASITE DEDOVCI GI ISKOPAJA IZORAJA REKI PLANINI IMINJA GRDOVI SELA.I NA CRKVITE IKONITE IM GI IZBISAJA KIRILICA.
darioo2312 1 year ago 2
5.SVE IZMENAJA.,IM ZABRANIJA JAVNO DA ZBORUVAAT MAJCIN JAZIK DO 1985.god,DO DEN DENES NE MOZAT PROTERANITE MAKEDONCI DA SE VRATAT TAMU.NE GI PUSTAAT DA VLEZAT. VO GRCIA. NA NAJBLISKITE NA GROBOT DA POJDAT, DA IM ZAPALAT SVEKA, NA TATKO MAJKA BRAT,,TOLKU ZLOSTORSTVO NE SNE VIDELE od nikogo KAKO OD NIV. MALAKA MALAKA FASITI,NA MESTATA KADE STO ZIVEEA NASI MAKEDONCI. NASELIJA NEKOJ PRAVOSLAVNI OD TURSKA AFRIKA OD CEL SVET,,, ,
darioo2312 1 year ago
6.TOLKU ZLOSTORSTVO VO ISTORIJATA NA MAKEDOZMOT NE SNE VIDELE.TOA E CELTA NIVNA PROTIV SLAVJANSKATA KULTURA,NIE E IMAME TAA KULTURA 1400 GOD. I JA SAKAME.. POSTO BALKANOT SLAVJANITE GO KOLONIZIRALE.ALI NAS NIKOJ NE NI NAPRAVIL
GENOCIT EXSODUS..DO SEGA NIKOGAS VO ISTORIJATA........I GROBOVI NIKOJ NE OTKOPUVAL OD NAJ BLISKITE....
NIKOJ NE NE PROTERAL VO ISTORIATA NAS OD NASITE VEKOVNI OGNISTA......SAMO OVIE JUST MALAKA FASISTI...
---
darioo2312 1 year ago
7.DODEKA SONCE GREEE CE IMA MAKEDONCI I VO SRCE I DUSA ,,,I NIKOGAS NEMAT DA BIDAT GRCIIIII,,,,,,,,,,,IAKO IAKO IAKO GI
MANIPULIRATE SO DRUG JAZIK .ALI TIE MAKEDNOCI PAK OD GENERACIJA NA GENERACIJA CE PRENESUVAAT DEKA SE samo makedonci nisto drugo. MAKEDONCIIIIIIII i nivniot simbol (BOG SONCE) I DEKA NE SE GRCIIII......I NIKOGAS VAS JUST MALAKA NEMAT DA
darioo2312 1 year ago
8.VE SAKAATTTTTTTTTTTTTT............imate od MAKEDONIA 51% i sega skataat i imeto da go ukradat........
imetoMAKEDONIA E NASE....
darioo2312 1 year ago
izdrzete braca MAKEDONIJA E SO VAS!!! ne se srami ne ne se plasi MAKEDONEC DA SI!!!
UNITED MACEDONIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
kurajberot 1 year ago
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Vardar Macedonia (Macedonian and Serbian: Вардарска Македонија, Vardarska Makedonija; Bulgarian: Вардарска Македония, Vardarska Makedoniya) is the north-western area of the Macedonia region. The borders of the area approximately coincide with modern day Republic of Macedonia. The name references the river Vardar, which flows through the area.
JIMY45GR 1 year ago
The truth shall win and this is the TRUTH
TheMakGreat 1 year ago
ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑ ΓΗ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΗ
NeaLiosiaClubGate7 1 year ago
MAKEDONIJA NA MAKEDONCITE
patriotceMKD 2 years ago
So why were there so many Greek schools in Macedonian before 1913?
In fact there were mostly Greek and Bulgarian schools and some Romanian and Serbian in the north.
Why was there such a strong Greek national movement in slavic speaking Macedonian areas before 1913?
redgreek2811 2 years ago
look,this is boring to keepoit up.
i let u have the last words,and do not plan to continue playing this verbal ping-pong.
unless u write some bull....tthat will make me react.
briefly about ur question-there were many schools and people were sending their kids sometimes in different schools because they schooled their kids for free-propaganda machinery.
so one father would have his one son in greek school (for free) and the other in the serbian school (for free).
etc...
angomako 2 years ago
also,dont forget the abolition of the slavonic archibishop and the grekophone presence since its abolition-greekl priests telling peasants to take their kids to greek schoold (even though they do not speak the language) or else--u know,no holly communion,one can go to hell if they betray the roman church etc.
so slavophione peasants listen...or not if they see trought it,and so the confusion starts.
etc etc...
God Bless us all!
angomako 2 years ago
Was there any Greek national plan back in the 17th and 18th century?
You are a supporter of thousands years old nations now,aren't you?
Another conspiracy against poor peasants to assimilate them into modern Greek nation.
Who were those peagants? a nation of victims,manipulated by priests?
redgreek2811 2 years ago
about greek national plans, i wouldn't go there,but yes,there probably was a national plan.
when did it start exactly,i wouldn't know.
those peasants were slavophines who didn't speak greek,and listened to slavopnic services at least until the abolishion of the ochrid arhiepiscopy in 18 century.
angomako 2 years ago
This is an assumption based in the notion of a national character of ohrid archiepiscopy.
But it had never been a national church,neither the patriarchate of Konstantinoulopis.
The original question was about Greek churches in Macedonia,Greek schools and pro-Greek national movement before 1913.
After all Greek was the second language spoken by many slavic speaking orthodox christians in Macedonia and the language of an arising class bourgoisin many cities of Southern Macedonia
redgreek2811 2 years ago
Greek national plans in 16th,17th centuries?
Only if Greek nation was the first formed nation in history,even before the french one.
I don't buy this at all.
The Archiepiscopy of Ohrid wasn't a national church.
This is an aposteriori construction of official historians in Skopje.
Those slavic speaking peagants considered themselves Romii Macedonians
redgreek2811 2 years ago
who said 16/17 century?
im talking end of 18 begining of 19 century. england had interest in splitting ottoman empire,but it didn't have interest into recreating romii consiusness-which was latent in big part of the region,ibncluding macedonia.
instead,they supported "greek consiusness".
angomako 2 years ago
Modern identities were not imported from the west.
Romii/Greek identity is the product of the rising of a Greek class bourgois (greek speaking,vlach speaking,slavic speaking).
Whatever had been the interests of Great Britain is totally irrelevant
redgreek2811 2 years ago
and why do you keep and keep and keep putting words in my mouth that i never said or implied?
16/17 century i never even implied,but you mention it like i have said it very speciofi9caly...and then go on and argue with what i have never said.
you do this all the time.
don't you have smarter things to say instead of ascribing me some "arguments" i never said and argue with those arguments?
angomako 2 years ago
Comment removed
redgreek2811 2 years ago
soory mate but this is the most simplistic excuse i have ever heard.
According to you In the era of nationalism some Macedonians funded schools to have their children "brainwashed".The only schools for free were the Bulgarian ones.
It reminds me of NOF schools during Greek civil war when some spions of Skopje wanted to forbid Greek language from the schools and Macedonians resisted
redgreek2811 2 years ago
greek schools were not for free?
people didn't "brainwash" their children-they educated them.
i told you,for macedonians at that tim,e who still practiced that non-exclusivist form of multiple identities,it was absolutely fine to exercise them and naviogate with them ion order to get most out of the situation.
jews did the same many times in history,it is common for peopkle to have a set of identities...these identities became more conflicting as the macedonian issue grew and aspirations grew
angomako 2 years ago
That's why VMROvci were killing innocent Macedonians who wanted Greek education ,Greek schools and Greek churches.
Chakalarov and Kliassev were terrorizing their co-villagers for they wanted Greek education
redgreek2811 2 years ago
this is the period when the segregation started and people started to be divided on basis of alegiances.
before that,those people were one and brothers.
this episodes happen in history of all people for one reason or another.
just as the anty-colonial movement gave birth to the postcollonial nations around the world,the friction between the states was also one of the initiators-an important one-to the birth of the idea of modern macedonian nation (in an ethnic exclusivist sense).
angomako 2 years ago
in time that idea matured and its expression was becaming clearer and clearer.
the result are we-ethnic macedonians who do not have alegiances to any of the neighbouring states,call our language macedonian (as locals in aegean macedonian do too0 and identify only with the name "macedonians" because the othger sets of identifications -romii- a church-political one, bulgarians-as a linguistic etc...were not already in that meaning and their usage has changed.
angomako 2 years ago
Macedonians used to call themselves Romii in the Ottoman era as well.
Why?
How has that term become a national term for many slavic speaking,greek and vlach speaking Macedonians before 1913?
Why VMROvci were kiling their co-villagers for they hadn't declared themselves Bulgarians?
redgreek2811 2 years ago
how did that idea mature.?
It is a economical,social,political process not a natural one.
redgreek2811 2 years ago
You, the Slav Macedonians adopted a new identity in the context of the rising of a state class bourgois in Yugoslavic Macedonia after 1944.
Without this solification this new idnetity would have never been emerged from a former prevalent Bulgarian identity.
redgreek2811 2 years ago
It wasn't Tito that created you but sealed the rising of the slavmacedonian ethnogenesis by helping the formation of the SRM.
It is state bourgois that creates nation and not the opposite ALWAYS
redgreek2811 2 years ago
the ochrid arhiepiscopy was not a national church!!!
where did i say that???again,you take something out of your sleave and ascribe it to me, and go on arguing with that.
in that case,you don't need m,e to argue.
stand in front of a mirror,and argue with ur self!
ochrid archiepiscopy had a linguistic function,not national.
it worked for bisantian empire and its purpose was to extend the multylinguistic bisantian commonwelt into the newly emerging slavonic powers in europe.
angomako 2 years ago
You are trying hard to find nations or signs of a national-like idemtity in a precapitalist era.
In this context an aposteriori attempt to invent an national-like Ohrid church is ridicilus.The same applies for all those who claim the Patriarchate of Istanbul as a Greek church
redgreek2811 2 years ago
riight...and when greeks forbitten the makedonika even in the homes of slavophone macedonians,these pro-ghreek slavophones also rejoiced,i suppose?they were like, yey, now we are forbittemn to speak pur mother thong at home, that is so great, now we will become coplitely "hellebized", how cool!
is that how it was?
angomako 2 years ago
Who?
The Greek fascist government of Metaxas?1937?
We live in 2009.
As far as I know the local slavic language is not forbideen in Greece and off course isn't your business to interfere in these issues.
redgreek2811 2 years ago
redgreek,there are accounts of greek priests asking villagers to sign and swear in front of god that they will never ever speak their native language.
so it is not just metaxas,it was coordinated action with the pro-greek churches to eliminate the slavophine language from macedonia.
it is my business because i have family there. they are my people and as i said,50 % of our diaspora is from there+20% of macedonians in rep.macedonia.
angomako 2 years ago
if u as a tax paying citizen want to learn the local slavic mother language in greek insitution (because you have every right to do so if you want,as guaranteed by any international conventions that greece has signed), CAN YOU?
WOULD YOU??
if not,why not?
cause if you don't,your children might not know the language of ur forfathers,the songs,the legends,the stories.
also,WHAT IS THE NAME YOU CALL THAT LANGUAGE? IT'S NOT "SLAVSKI" FOR SURE.
angomako 2 years ago
we all hope we can use our native macedonian language to talk to our cousins,friends and relatives.
angomako 2 years ago
we don't feel as co-nationals to you.
I am not particularly interested in learning a new standardized form of an oral language that has a tottaly different meaning for us compared to you.
It is not your business to interfere in these issues.
Our local language exists inside Greek nation.Whatever you want/assume is totally irrelevant
redgreek2811 2 years ago
So why so many churches with exclusively Greek inscriptions in slavic speaking areas?
Dirty Greeks played dirty games centuries old?
Who build those churches?Greek colonizers?
The Greek refugees from Anatolia were living in Macedonia in 16 and 17 th century?
redgreek2811 2 years ago
The first university in Balkans was the Univ of Athens founded in 1835.Famous graduates of it were Gligor Parlicev (Grigorios Stavridis) and Dimitar Mladenov (Dimitrios Miladenidis)
redgreek2811 2 years ago
so what?
wtf does this non-sequitur data has anything to do with what i mentioned?
angomako 2 years ago
Identities are not biologically given, they are socially constructed.
This applies to you as well.
You are not part of a "natural" "macedonian" nation but the product of a nation building process that was solidified after 1944.
Nothing makes you more Macedonian than me.
In fact you are a faction of Macedonians as we do.Thats why you can't be the only Macedonian and a qualifier is needed.
redgreek2811 2 years ago
we are 100% in Macxedonia so we are ethnic Macedonians.
there is a very very very CLEAR distinction to our Macedonianness compared to yours--not in quantity but in quality.
We are ethnic Macedonians,and your macedonian identity is regional,not ethnic.
Ethnicaly,in the pricess of arbitrary choosing-you decided to become greek,for wharever that means to you and i have no right to question it.
angomako 2 years ago
If some of the peoploe calling them selves Macedonians in greece question their Greekenss,they have every right to do so and identify with us, IF they ever see fit...OR NOT.
correction:
pricess===proces
angomako 2 years ago
you dont have to repeat one thinbg over and over if it is understood.
if your greek identity is socialy constructed,that is fine with me and i accept it.
if some aegean macedonians do not feel greek,and reject that social construct,aligning to our deffinition of being ethnic macedonians-they should also have the right to it.
how does this go against any of your logic,please explain.
angomako 2 years ago
no qualifier is needed if we do not give it to our selves.
youy are greek macedonian,i am ethnic macedonia.
that is enough of qualification for me,andf trust me,it aint gona go further thenm that,i mean,BE VERY VERY VERY ASSURED THAT IT WONT GO FURTHER THAN THAT. our language is macedonian in un,and our ethnicity is also macedonian.
we do not even negotiate about anything like that.
we are ethnic macedonians wether u like that or not egeec.
that will not change. period.
angomako 2 years ago
i can´t beliebe that!!!they speak the greek language and say that they are "macedonians"!!!prodotes!!!!they want to create an anti-greek propaganda!!!
MegaMakedonia 2 years ago
original macedonians who speak bulgarian and write cyrillic?????...ahhahahahahaha...
oh my god...these people are really confused and they dont know history...
united real macedonia!!!one and greek!!!....
freedom to monastiri and geugeli!!!
NikiforosZias 2 years ago
Cyrillic language started from Macedonia.Kiril was from Vodensko.Learn history please !
The pseudoanncienthellenichysteria is well known to the world ! .Your end is near ! World knows that you steal the history of ancient greeks, that unfortunately true that by DNA confirming you can't be considered as descendants of ancient greeks even in a low level...
1macedonian1 2 years ago
hahahahhahaha!!!...
cyrillus was greek from thessaloniki and missioner of the byzantine empire...
you should learnd some history..
besides...
what ''cyrillus'' means in your language???....
hellenism is know to the hole world as the value that offered the most gentle virtues all over the world...you are the hysteric by stealing greek and bulgarian history...
you should be ashame and your end is close....
as for our dna...it exist all over the mediterrenean balkans black sea etc etc....
NikiforosZias 2 years ago
Ha ha ha not from SOLUN stupid !!!. Why you want to modify history ?.Take the facts straight, don't be afraid.
Kiril was from Voden.
You have the right to be self-determined as Hellenes, although it's not genetically true, and even not acceptable by the rest of the world, which calls you fairly greeks...
1macedonian1 2 years ago
...However your rights end, from the time you want to usurp other ethnicities, like Macedonians, Aromanians, Turks, e.t.c.Your arrogance and propaganda from your own government its obvious. It's useless for me even to try to prove it...
1macedonian1 2 years ago
malaka artsioth ama se gamhsw omws 8a deis
19Mirco 2 years ago
ki esu katse kala slavovoulgarogyfte mirko giati tha doume poios tha gamisei poion poustraki....
eprepe na sas eixame steilei sta uralia apo kei pou irthate ton 6o aiwna meta xristo...
alla pote den einai arga...
NikiforosZias 2 years ago
Ore malakes koloboulgaroslavoi tis Florinas, mas kanoun kai tous eksipnous ta zoa, eprepe na eiche ginei kamia genoktonia to 40-50 na eichame isichasei kai ap'autous..
Artsiotis 2 years ago
ama se gamhsw omws 8a deis malaka.gamw thn mana sou re mpastarde
19Mirco 2 years ago
Artsiotis
Μου φαινεσαι σα Σκοπιανος που παριστανει τον ελληνα εθνικιστη για να προβοκαρει τη συζητηση.
Το αιμα που εχουν χυσει οι σλαβοφωνοι Ελληνες Μακεδονες για να μεινουν Ελληνες απεναντι σε Βουλγαρους και Σκοπιανους ειναι ποταμι.
redgreek2811 2 years ago
cajceto
I won't discuss with you further cause you want to just fuck the conversation.
Read previous comments of angomako who is on your side and mine and then read yours.
Your comments are childish not because of your opinion but because of your moronic level as a person.
You are a joke as a person not because of your assuming identity.
redgreek2811 2 years ago
vlachs tended to marry vlachs,makedonci tended to marry with makedonci,not grci--grkophones.
so there were distinctions inside the people you so much like to call romii.
so...our makedonian grandparents were marrying among each other,not some grekophone because he is more "romii"...lol
angomako 2 years ago
well you renounced the romii identity and became "greek".
i didnt answer your onthological question on the two brithers with sam mother.
yes,they can belong to different ethnic groups upon their choosing,i agree.
but it doesnt mean that they are not the sons of the same mother (macedonia) and that they do not have the right to the same geneology and history up to that point.
and it doen't mean that they have to hate or disrespect each other.
angomako 2 years ago
accordingly noone can monopolize the mother Macedonia and the name.
This is exactly my point.
redgreek2811 2 years ago
but we dont want to monopolise it.
leave the people on youtube.
our state policy is far from "monopolisin".
the only country that tries to monopolise anything rekated to makedonia,its history people etc,is greece.
theya re afraid that the "makedonism" ,the macedonian national consciusness movement will spread again among their slavophone populations,and want to "separate" the norther makedonians in every way,especialy by stigmatising us as "dirty slavobulgars"..lol
angomako 2 years ago
calling our selves makedonians is not monopolising it because we don not fiorbit by any means anybody else to call them selves that--for whatever it means to them--ethnic greek or bulgarian slavophine macedonian.
what it means to us if qualitatively different--ethnicity.
angomako 2 years ago
I have heard many times this and didn'y buy it at all.
I am not now and won't in the future.
It violated my rights as a Macedonian and will never be accepted or respected.
redgreek2811 2 years ago
Every national term self-exclusive.
Greek mean that noone can call himself Greek outside Greek nation.Exclusively Greek speaking muslims for example who were exchanged do Turkey had never called themselves Romii and Greek and their langauge wasn't Greek or Romeika but Cretan or whatever.
redgreek2811 2 years ago
yes but which was the dominant identity is that precapitalist era?
Macedonian meant something very different in Ottoman empire than today.
People didn't intermarry not due to different identities but to regional isolation.
Otherwise all Romii consider themselves one thing.Thats why if you want to talk about ethnicities in precapitalist era (risky in my mind) the most prevalent was a Romii ethnicity.
redgreek2811 2 years ago
macedonian meant something different,
bulgarian meant something different too,
romii meant something different too.
so that is why exclusivity in any of these terms,like greece want to imply (in history, using the name etc) doesnt make sense.
angomako 2 years ago
as for which identity was dominat in the precapitalist era--thats a good question.
because they used several identites at the same time,which one was dominant?
i think it was the religious---we are orthodox.
next it was the linguistic---we are slavophines
next it was the geography.
i think people speaking different languages didnt mix because the language,not becaus ethe geography.
they were not stupid,they traveled and communicated a lot.
my family moved from kavala to bitola 300yr/ago
angomako 2 years ago
hmm...when you use the greek names for these places it is strange to me.
you see,the makedonika culture in greece is gradualy dying off.
in precapitalist era these places were called very very differently.
greeks do not let us go back if on our passports we have the slavonic names.
now,do they have anythinbg against our language and culture,or not?
you tell me!
angomako 2 years ago
Thessaloniki,Kastoria,Florina were not invented in 1913 as a nationalist version of history claims.
It includes the greek names and the slavic names of churches in Ohrid,the Greek and slavic inscriptions of icons in Saint Naum (Sveti Naum) in albanian borders.
It includes also the greek inscriptions in Saint Dimitrios (Sveti Dimitria) in Bitola (a term derived from Monastery for those who know)
redgreek2811 2 years ago
kostur and voden were slavphone cities.
that you say the church services were in greek is hard for me to accept--it simply doesnt make any sense.
macedonia was the world center of slavonic literacy.
the ohrid archiepiscopy was part of the konstantinopolis church and many archiepiscops were greeks,while the language of the services was all in slavonic!
voden and kostur are just a day walk away from ohrid,where the slavic university was.
even people from poland were going there...
angomako 2 years ago
It is simple.
Your argument means that there should not have been churches in Macedonia with greek inscriptions,greek icons church services in Greek before 1913 or in a different version before 1767.
We know very well that all churches in Kastoria, from Byzantine era, Thessaloniki, Veria where Saint Paul taugh the New Testament in Macedonia and in many others cities were Greek,Greek icons,Greek inscriptions and church services in Greek.
redgreek2811 2 years ago
Even in Bulgarian Exarchate dominated areas church servises,icons and inscriptions were often bilingual.
what about cave churches in Prespa which is very familiar to me?Are they in Greek as well? why?
Who "forced" those slavic speaking monks in Prespa to write in Greek ?
redgreek2811 2 years ago
The main identity was Romii,not orthodox per se.
Romii meant those ex-subjects of EASTERN Romean Empire regardless of language spoken and
accordingly living in a lower social status than muslims.
So a slavophone in Macedonia used to consider a greekophone as brother and not a slavophone muslim(converted).
That's why even today siding with Turks is considered a treason in Balkans.
redgreek2811 2 years ago
greeks sided with turks many times in history especialy when it came to killing slavophines.
usa times in 1903---greeks sided with turks against macedonians.
angomako 2 years ago
I haven't realized you are so naive.
Romii Macedonians were fighting against Bulgarian VMROvci.
Who are you kidding?
By aposteriori changing the character of the conflict in late 19th and early 20th century you won't feel better
I don't have illusion that I will change 70 years of propaganda in FYROM,
redgreek2811 2 years ago
givme a break will you?
i am naive?
you're telling me that you giuys had greek language churches even though ochrid archiepiscopy was two hours walking distance from you and was made by bisantium for the purpose of education slavophons in slavonic including churches. offcourse they were romii,we all were as members of bisantium.
angomako 2 years ago
"romii macedonians" and "bulgarian vmrovci" is also just a construct,and you're naive ur self to think that neo-constructed greeks were all flowers and daisies to slavophones who were "not affiliated" with "vmrovci".
in 1924 the greek published school books and the censuses were not bulgarian propaganda eh?
even that was not allowed then,and you're proud of greek "what" precisely?
angomako 2 years ago
priest teodosia gologanov,georgia puleski and numerous international macedonian ethnci societies that sprouted in end of 19 century...inclding the diaspora (in usa you have people slavonic people declaring macedonians,besides greeks,bulgarians and serbs).
angomako 2 years ago
Look I will tell you even more strictly from a marxist point of view,
It is a bourgois state that forms its own nation and not the opposite.
This a causative relation.Even if a nation starts to be formed earlier it is the state that solidifies it.
Nation is a unity created to perpetuate the state of bourgois class.
You can't have a nation imagined communities(Anderson) without a common market, without a national class bourgois.
redgreek2811 2 years ago
i dont dissagree,what i want to stress is the ethnic groups.
even usa is a nation,all countries are nations today,even papua new gunea with its few hundred languages is "one nation".
i'm talking about how people with same ethnicity get divided over over issues of national symbolism.
ultimately,its all in our heads and someone is messing with our heads.
angomako 2 years ago
for example yugoslavia,it was a nation...but withing it,there were many ethnic groups that have had a very ambivalent common history and ambivalent perceptiopns of each other---croats-serbs,makos-serbs,etc.
it was everything you say it should be for a nation---common market,the best economy in easter europe and a high standard (up to the 80ties higher then the one in greece),and yet,it fell appart because of ethnic feuds.
so,marx is great to explain tendencies,but there are many variables here
angomako 2 years ago
It wasn't a nation actually.Nations co-exist in the same federal state because there was a federal state bourgois class that counterbalanced the regional differences of local class bourgois.
The need for a construction of economic,social and political power in local level was fundamental and not finally counterbalanced by the construction in the federal level.
redgreek2811 2 years ago
The regional differences had not been reduced after 45 years of a common market and there had not been formed a unified Jugoslav class bourgois with elimination of the local ones.
In fact it was the other way around.
redgreek2811 2 years ago
ok,but the ethnicities were there before the yugoslav burgois class formed.
also,it is not only "burgois class" that can foster national awareness and national awakening.
that is way too black and white.
national awakenings can be trigered by many other events, like the anty -colonial movement in africa and the pacific states, when it trigered national awakenings in countries that has zero bugouis class,but the locals were opposing the colonial powers.
angomako 2 years ago
There were no ethnicities before capitalism.I don't buy the theory of thousands yerars old nations or ethnicities in another version.
Greek identity was constructed in early 19th century and slavmacedonian identity in early-mid 20th century.
The rest is stupid nationalism and we have enough.
National awaakening is always guided by a national class bourgois in any anti-colonial movements to expel foreign bourgois classes
redgreek2811 2 years ago
neither do i buy such theories.
and neither do i buy that marxist "burgeois" thing either.
seeing how much u use marxist stuff,makes me think that ur grandpa was a marxist communist fighting for macedonian rights,eh?
after all,do you ahve cousins in rep. of macedonia?
prebegani egeici?
pretty much all of us have cousins in aegean macedonia.
finaly,put it in your newly constructed greek head:
THERE IS NO "SLAVOMAKEDONIAN" IDENTITY.
there is only macedonian ethnic identity.
angomako 2 years ago
how ethnic groups name them selves doesn't follow somebodies flawed "logic" or hopes or "feelings"...like when greeks say that 2million ethnic macedonians hurt their feelings and we should change our very name.
it doesn't work like that mate,it never ever has.
people choose their name based on many complex historical,sociological,ethnic factors that have notning to do with "redgreek" feelings.
so don't go there-no sociological -anthropological theory will support your stand,trust me.
angomako 2 years ago
It is hard for you to accept that a Macedonian identity exists inside Greek nation.
redgreek2811 2 years ago
How ethnic groups name themselves today is a totally different issue than 200 years ago when there was no capitalism,no class bourgois,no national sense in the words like Greek,Bulgarian etc.
These terms have gradually adopted a national meaning in the last 2 centuries.If you think that you, the assuming "macedonian" are the only nation existed before 18 th century there are no modern sociologist,historian,scholars to accept these issues.
redgreek2811 2 years ago
i've been talking about this several times-we know how people defines and have finaly relkeased those constructs from narrow exclusivist interpretations fabricated in 19 century offices.
people used many identites to navigate trough different situations,and there was no such emotional charge like there is today,for sure.
angomako 2 years ago
It is not about feelings,neither about sociological theories.
It is a political-cultural debate that started well before 1913, in fact in early -mid 19th century.
It is our right not to recognize a monopolization of macedonian identity and block this process.
redgreek2811 2 years ago
there is absolutely no any monopolisation on anything of macedonian identity.
the only ones who try to monopolise the macedobnian identity,its historical symbols and everything that goes with it,and in same time,destroy the slavophone macedonian culture,is modern greece.
not us.
we do not "monopolise" anything. we are just existing as what we are in the inalienable human right to exist as what we are.
we do not deny that to you or any other.
angomako 2 years ago
No my communist grandfather fought for a socialist,democratic Greece and for Macedonians as an integral part of Greek nation.
He wasn't a spion of Tito and his gang in Skopje,neither a Bulgarophile instantly transformed into a pro-Jugo separatist like Peiov,Keramitziev and Dimevski in 1945.Those separatist figures are responsible fotr the exile and the de-nationalization of Macedonians living in FYROM.
redgreek2811 2 years ago
that is funny what ur saying.
few hundred years ago,bulgarian meant slavophone,and one could be bulgarian,romii and macedonian at the same time. they had different meanings at those times,that is why you have people from kosovo written as "bulgarians"-it meant-south slavophones.
in 19 century it became exclusivist ethnic deffinition,as the others and caused stirr within the homogenous slavophone macedonian population.
angomako 2 years ago
stop playing on the bulgarian card, i canb also play on the traitor card and call you a traitor for killing ur own slavophione macedonians for a brainwashed cause.
your words show zero understanding of the complexities.
"probulgarian" macedobians simply wanted to preserve their language that they were proud of,unlike you.
should i lower the discussion on this stupid level and call you a traitor of your own mother thong? some other mother 's language is more dear to you then ur own?
angomako 2 years ago
so this is how stupid does it look liek when we qustion the merits of the choices of our grandparents.
mine was partizan and fought bulgarians.
he felt macedonian. so?
should i call ur grandfather traitor because he fought for those who destroyed the culture andf language?
do you have a name for that language slavophone you speak?
or you just naturaly call it "slavophono-idiomski"?
so this is how stupid it looks.
in the past all they wanted to preserve was the language and the culture.
angomako 2 years ago
That's why the slavic speaking Macedonians were separated into Romii Macedonians and Bulgarian Macedonians(VMROvci).The term Bulgarian had already adopted a national sense.The same for the term Romii.
Your identity is the by-product of a division inside Bulgarian national movement
redgreek2811 2 years ago
redgreek---there are no "slavic sleaking macedonians" in greece today,it is a "very very very small minoirity",we dont knwo its number,and it is not supported on any lkevel,children do not speak the makedonika and they do not study it anywhere.
it is discouraged everywhere.
so, "romii due", that is afraid to even call the cities into the names ur ancestors called them-good luck negating 2million people.
soon,borders will open,no visas,the natural flow of people will be restored once again.
angomako 2 years ago
We don't feel as our minority.
What ever speak our children is not your busseness or anybody else's.
What ever we speak,what ever we are,what ever we dance is part of Romii Macedonian tradition.
We are part of Greek nation and happy with that.
Live with it.
redgreek2811 2 years ago
it is my business if i am blood related to thjese people,and most of us in rep. macedonia ARE blood related and we have many cousins and relatives there.
not mentioning our proportionaly big diaspora-it is 505 aegean.
u r unexiatant part of the "greek nation" that did everything toi erase you as slavophone population-especuialy the language.
i live with it,what should i do otherwise?
we're dancing those dances too,by the way. and sing in makedonika.
angomako 2 years ago
ur5 identity is result of assimilation,murder and destruction of the slavophone culture in greece,and now-you as slavophone macedonioan are proiud of that? proud that ur children do not speak the language of ur forefathers?great stuff u got there!
keep being proud of that,as long as ur "greek" u have nothing to worry about.
angomako 2 years ago
You culture and identity is the result of a selective reinvention of traditions as Anderson and Hobsbowm confirmed countless times.
Do not make silly statements like this.
Your identity includes assimilation,destruction and murder too.Every nation building process is like that.
You are not an exception
redgreek2811 2 years ago
what ur saying about "selective reinventions of traditions" goes especialy for modern greeks who "extend their traduitions to the blah blah".
so apply it to ur slef first before u try to deconstruct me.
my culture and identity is my culture and identity-anderson ot Hobs do not negate anything related to this and that proicess exists everywehere-new zealand maoritanga movement comes to mind,for example.
so start with ur self before u get all "intelectuial" on me.
angomako 2 years ago
Your argument applies exactly to you.
You are the one to come here as missionaire of macedonianism to enlighten us that we are assimilated and you the original.
As long as claim exclusivity and originality on macedonian matters Anderson and Hobsbawm will laugh at you mate
redgreek2811 2 years ago
more non-sense.
i do not copme to enlighten you that i am "original" and you are fake.
who claims "exclusivity"?
i tell u that we can all exist as who we are and as what we feel we are.
it is absolutely in alignement with any sane definition on sociologyu and the real life situations in the time-space continuum of ethnogenesis.
nobody has laughed when discussing these stuff,but ur bugeouis origins of papaua new guinea are certainly entertaining!
angomako 2 years ago
You are diminishing yourself now.
Every national movement has roots in economic and social struggle.
National inteliggentsia express the ideology of a new born class bourgois.
Nothing is biologically given.
redgreek2811 2 years ago
really?
so according to you,the tribal chieftains who fought the french and english were "bourgois" class?
they were everything but that,they were the "aristocracy" of those societies,far cry from some "burgeoasy".
angomako 2 years ago
Are you pretending the idiot now?
answer seriously or don't write nonesense
redgreek2811 2 years ago
it's all quite seriously answered,appart from the spelling.
angomako 2 years ago
You come here as the only original and only Macedonian and want to impose us this identity.
Your exclusivity in macedonian name will never be accepted.
You are as artificial as we are mate
redgreek2811 2 years ago
neither i nor my country has ever promoted "exclusivituy" on the name or identity issues.
you are free to specify UR OWN NAME as much as u want.
what i do with my name-is my own and my people's business-not urs.
you seem to refer to this "exclusivity" non-sense when you don't know what to say to keep disagreeing with me.
angomako 2 years ago
i do not need to disagree with you since my theoretical paradigm is broather-u can be who you poerceive ur self to be just as i can.
angomako 2 years ago
I applaud your greateness
redgreek2811 2 years ago
so you don't have any cousins in rep. of macedonia?
angomako 2 years ago
The strengthening of regional differences in the context of global economic crisis allowed the strategy of seccesion to become dominant for those classes bourgois (croatian and slovenian) that had already showed advantages in international market and didn't want to spend funds for lesser developped regions like Kosovo,Serbia,Yugoslavian Macedonia.etc.
In that time Gilgorov voted in favor for greater autonomy together with Croatia and Slovenia furtherly promotimg the road to seccesion.
redgreek2811 2 years ago
They weren't that brutal as Bulgarians vmrovci you know.
Both in late 19thcentury-early 20th century and during WWII, Bulgarians either as VMROvci either OHRANA members commited terrible crimes against Romii Makedonci.
Are you kidding me?
In Greek census of 1928 82.000 ex-Exarchists were counted as Macedonoslavs whereas those affiliated with Patriarchate were counted as Greeks.
redgreek2811 2 years ago
bulgarians were brutal in rep. of macedonia too.
my grandfather was partizan and fought them.
as for the census,it is a solid proof that the greek state reckognised macedonian ethnicity and language even back then.
the greek geography school books up to the 80ties called the place "makedonia".
the question is,why all this noise and inflating its people against such small country?
answers are many,but i already gave my oppinion on iy.
as for bulgarians being more crueler,its' hard to say.
angomako 2 years ago
Macedonian question is 150 years old.
Do you think that Greece or others find out Macedonia in 1991?
We are all old in Balkans and very well known to each other.
In Greek census of 1928 it is mentioned Macedonoslavs.The definition of ethnicity is debated as you might know.If you want to talk about ethnicity especially in precapitalist era it is very risky and does not hold water.
redgreek2811 2 years ago
if "macedonian" question is 150 years old, the neo-greek is not much older either. it has some 50 years more,to the best of counts.
the real issue started in the open when the greek government in the 90ties decided to inflame its people on grounds of "ancient history" to prove exclusivity on the name of macedonia-preventiong expelled aegean macedonians to return and to prevent the assimilated aegeans like you from reverting back to their macedonian identity like they did during the civil war.
angomako 2 years ago
i disagree--we are not very well known to each other--or better said,after the national awakening we see each other trough some really stupid illogical points of view--fostered and invented by the brainwashing political powers who play with the sheeple (sheep+people) trough using terms like "ethnic exclusivity", "ethnic purity", "exclusivity of ancient history", monopolising history and taking it and its symbols out of contexts (both ancient and mideaval-bisantian/bulgarian/serbian/ottoman).
angomako 2 years ago
Those geography books were mine too.
We had no problem with Yugoslavian Macedonia back then and personally nor do I now.
The meaning was crystal clear.There is a Yugoslavian Macedonia outside Greek Macedonia.
redgreek2811 2 years ago
it is not "yugoslavian" macedonia,it was republic of macedonia -part of the federation of yugoslavia.
greece has reckognised even the langiuage in it by signing documents in greek and macedonian-we have all those documents.
the people from the censuses in 1924 were "macedonians" and the language was called "macedonian" in many occasions.
angomako 2 years ago
well you had problkems with anything "macedonia" in 1990ties suddenly--you know, the logic goes like--you spe4ak slavonic,ergo you are "slavs" (for whatever that means), ergo you are not ancient macedonians who were greeks ergo you can not be macedonians today in any form because ancient macedonians were greeks ie we are the exclusively and only ancient ones because we speak greek.
heck,by this logic you are "skopian" too.
and that was part of the equasion--to scare potential ethjnodissent ..
angomako 2 years ago
Just di your own research about churches in Kastoria from 10th century to now.
Your argument is that there was no Greek church in Macedonia before 1913,isn't it.
Even Sveti Dimitria the main church in Bitola built in 1832 had greek inscriptions,greek icons and the liturgy was in Greek.
redgreek2811 2 years ago
but redgreek,even in skopje church icons are in greek.
it was the language of christianity,serbian and bulgarian kings had greek as official besides their languages,just as for example french was official in russia in 19 century.
that doesnt say that the service was in greek.
agios naumos's job was to perform the liturgies in slavonic and do all the translations in slavonic just so slavophines from kastoria and all over makedonia and much wider can take services in slavonic.
angomako 2 years ago
You don't seem to realize that older churches in Macedonia at least in Southern part are completely in Greek language.
This applies to the liturgy.
Accordingly a certain tradition associated with Greek language was not imported in 1913 or 1767 as some want to beleive.
Macedonians greek speaking or slavic speaking were not allien to a certain Romii tradition.
And because religious was so important in precapitalist societies a certain Romii identity was dominant over regional ones.
redgreek2811 2 years ago
do not agree because it doesnt make any sense under the planet. slavonic speaking people had slavonic services in order to understand them.
in bisantia and turkey this was most common thing because these empires were not burdened by ethno-linguistic divisions,uncontrary-they tried to supress them.
cyril and methodius made the whole slavonic literacy movement to have slavophones in bisantia assimilated into the bisantian commonwealth,and trough them,to influence the emerging slavophone kingdoms
angomako 2 years ago
so the thing is,why would they go trough all this effort in mideval times only to have churches in massively slavonic regions in greek? the greek liturgy was the problem--the slavonic liturgy with greek some greek was the solution- to this day macedonian monastic church services are very similar.
angomako 2 years ago
Was there liturgy in Greek in Macedonia before 1913 or 1767 or not?
Greek and Slavmacedonian are modern political entities.
redgreek2811 2 years ago
in the slavonic parts it was in slavonic since the days of cyril and methodius.
why did they translate all that stuff in slavonic?
for whom? exacytly for people in lerin,voden,ohrid,bitola,kozani,kostur,solun,etc...to assimilate them and make them subjects of the bisantian empire.
check data on the ohrid archibishopy and its jurisdictions-where the jurtisdictions spaned-chancer are-but not nececarily-that the services were in slavonic.
angomako 2 years ago
So the assimilation process didn't start in 1913 but in 10th century.
But there were no Greeks,no Bulgarians,no Turks, no SlavMacedonians back then in 10 th century.
Why churches in Kastoria,National identities are socially constructed not biologically given.
Hard for you to accept that isn't it?
redgreek2811 2 years ago
the3 assimilation into what?
into slavonic speaking macedonian roimii?
fine,same it was in rep. of macedonia as well with small episodes of serbian and bulgarian rule which covered you as well.
bisantia-the romii did everything to assimilate slavophones by giving them exactly churches and liturgies and schools in slavonig--the ochrid university,hello?
one hour from kastoria was the fiorst slavonic university in the world. and you wre "not really slavophone slavs at the time"? whats ur point?
angomako 2 years ago
Ohrid univ?WOW i am impressed now.
Our churches had originally greek inscriptions.Why 2 hours from Ohrid?
So the Eastern Roman empire was Greek?
I thought it was a pre-national empire?
Dirty Greeks had been doing centuries old plans to assimilate us but you the brave resisted.
Bravo!!!!!!!!!
redgreek2811 2 years ago
??
the slavonic university in ohrid im speaking,it was very near kostur and voden.
offcourse it was spreading slavonic literacy supported by bisantia.
the slavonic ochridarchibishopy WAS part of the konstantinopolis patriarchy,and many of the archiepiscops were greeks.
they supported the slavonic project tjem sleves,and if there were slavophones in kostur,they were normaly supported to follow liturgy on tgeir own language by the very bisantian greeks.
man...simple basics.
angomako 2 years ago
when i say "greeks" i just refer to grekophone romii.
it was mutlyethnic empire-there were still tribal-ethnic awarenesses inside,they were just downplayed and manipulated trough differenbt projects and mass population replacements.
what kind of resistance are you talking about?
"dirty greeks" didnt make plans to "asismilate us-it was bisantia that made plans to assimilate the slavophoines by incorporating them trough slavonic church and education.
the assimilation was not linguistic.
angomako 2 years ago
Ther were no national identities at that time.Only aposteriori national historians want to extrapolate things and discover famous anchestors in the past.
Modern identities are the product of last 2 centuries.
The whole project of a slavonic unic is a joke.The same for any Greek univ in KOnstantinoupolis.
There were only church schools for priests.That's all.
In a multi-lingual pre-national empire like eastern Rmaic and Ottoman empire the main ideological strcture of the state was religious
redgreek2811 2 years ago
first:
noone mentioned "national identities at that time.
you keep bringing this up and the argue with ur self.
when i say uni,i don't mean "harward" but a religious school for priests-who spread literacy and different knowledge of medicine,etc...they were educated to be beakions of light and medical knowledge was also imparted.
it was as educational as it could get.
u don;'t have to say Uni,say: a big and first school for spreading slavonic literacy in the world.
angomako 2 years ago
and that was right next to kastoria and it was supported by greekophone priests-it was policy of bisantia to teach people in slavonic.
why would they do all this to educate slavophones in slavonic,but do not educate the slavophines in slavonic in "kastoria"?
angomako 2 years ago
Bisantium is a term invented by western historians to diminish us.If you want to use it fine but it is not the original.
The original is Eastern Romean empire
redgreek2811 2 years ago
ok,another non-sequitur.
angomako 2 years ago
Who educated who.
Most of people at that time were illiterate till early 20th century.
Only priests were half educated and mostly billingual as it was a common centuries old tradition in a non national background
redgreek2811 2 years ago
another non-sequitur.
slavonic priests were educated to give liturgy in slavonic.
offcourse greek was learned,it was also learned in the courts of kings dushan and Samoil as well.
angomako 2 years ago
So Greek language was part of our tradition as well and not the language of "colonizers".
What happened and we had Greek schools and Greek teachers funded by our own communities?
Another Greek conspiracy?
redgreek2811 2 years ago
haha...what greek conspiracy are you reading in my notions on mideval stuff?
ur chaning rabbits in ur own mind.
when the national awakenings started,there was a newly introduced notion on identifications-exlusivity.
that came with the whole unnatural construct oi-language,religion,history etc as part of the nation building.
it applied to all balkan states,and it caused most friction in slavophone macedonians.
angomako 2 years ago
Comment removed
redgreek2811 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
who build churches with Greek inscriptions in Kastoria in 11th century?
Who build those churches in Kozani,Vodena,Thessaloniki,Serres etc.
You can't change aposteriori history.
We have lived as Romii Macedonians for centuries.
The Greek nation building process from early 19th century included many Macedonians not only intellectuals,but warfighters,villagers.
Romii Macedonians were transformed into Greeks whereas others became Bulgarians and later SlavMacedonians
redgreek2811 2 years ago
these churches were built by the flourishing slavophone macedonian bisantian culture,th