So God is like the arsonist who burns a house down so they can run in and save the family from the fire and be the hero? John Piper speaking on God's behalf is truly arrogant.
@THChristus my thoughts exactly. I love refuting thr problem of evil with logical philosophical arguments, but piper's answer here goes above and beyond.
I have never heard any better answer than this one. This tops all philosophy, anthropology, and all this cognitive bickering about God and evil. I LOVE John Piper.
OMG, scary stuff. So all the suffering and terror and pain is about God not finding any other way to show us his love. Oppression, torture, rape, disease, children dying in agony, lives destroyed...sickening. I would have done it differently.
@TheHigherVoltage - Although what you've just stated SOUNDS right, it's illogical. Without God the concepts of good and evil are meaningless. You are hijacking Christian theological positions to make an emotional case because you hate God and His Christ. You have perverted the definition of evil from "disobedience against God's precepts" to "causing humans pain and suffering". Thus you are exchanging the glory of God for your own sin and judging the inscrutable Judge of all.
Evil is telling children they are born evil. Evil is telling children they are only good if they obey without thinking. Evil is pretending the worst atrocities imaginable are forgivable, but disbelief is unforgivable. Evil is demanding that unquestioning faith is a virtue. Evil is claiming justice can be obtained by a scapegoating a blood sacrifice. Evil is pretending "all-loving" includes standing by while billions are tortured forever.
@steelbrushtattoo your argument is a very specific version of the evil/suffering argument against Christianity, which fails to hold water. God's choice to permit humans to enslave one another (and then to provide laws and rules around that practice) does not negate His love. In fact, it shows His mercy that He would provide laws to protect His people from enslaving themselves completely to one another. The law foreshadowed the redemption which would eventually come in Christ for His elect.
@steelbrushtattoo For some reason I just love being on the receiving end of this. What makes you think that I not share your impression of God as a mythical character?
@steelbrushtattoo I think the gullible one here, based on your statements concerning the Bible, is actually yourself. I'm sorry you got so worked up over something that can be reasonable. But it makes me question, why did you come to watch this video?
knowwale, you have no logical argument. Why should the Bible be forced into your definition of love? When you say "if God loved me, then He should do "x" for me," you're only revealing your human ignorance. God decreed evil so that Christ could be revealed and exalted above all else, and so that He could show His divine attributes for all eternity - mercy and justice, love and wrath, holiness and compassion. These are things that could not be revealed unless evil existed - but only for a time.
god is all loving, so shouldnt he want to stop it?
god is all knowing, so he would know how to stop it and whats going on?
If god really wanted to show his love for us, he would remove suffering and evil from the start of creation, cant say he couldnt, or he didnt know about it, or he didnt know how, or he didnt want to.
Why does God have to create a horrible world so he can send himself down and be tortured in order to forgive some creatures that he made in his image when they broke a law that he made himself before they even had the knowledge of good and evil?
You may call me arrogant, but I'll still ask the question - and if you can't answer it, then it does not matter what you call me.
@steelbrushtattoo Anyone can make an argument about anything, as you have so aptly done. Your real fight and your real argument is with and against God, because of what you think the Bible is teaching. You're talking like God instituted slavery. Although the Bible talks about slavery, it doesn't promote or condone it, just as the Bible talks about divorce, polygamy, murder, and a number of other sins. It's just the historical facts of the various sinful acts of mankind.
First, if you came to this 3 and a half minute video expecting a fully nuanced discussion of the problem of evil, you came to scorn, not to listen. @DyXXed Logical Fallacy: Faulty Analogy. Thankfully, you are not God and your son is not Jesus @83zeus Thanks for giving us a textbook example of the arrogance Piper mentioned @allfornot I'm impressed you could load that many undefended assumptions into a single post. Every sentence in your post contains an apriorism. Arguing is easy when you...don't
This is like saying that to show my son that I really love him, I'm going to invite a rapist in my house, and allow him to rape him as much as it pleases him, and then arrive at the last second to save him.
Without this, I could never show him true love. No way. I must set things up so that he suffers, and then save him from it. Millions of people must be raped, tortured and killed, so that God can show us that He really loves it.
Amazing explanation, and it is just the beginning of the answer.
“Love is patient; love is kind and envies no one. Love is never boastful, nor conceited, nor rude; never selfish, not quick to take offense. There is nothing love cannot face; there is no limit to its faith, its hope, and endurance. In a word, there are three things that last forever: faith, hope, and love; but the greatest of them all is love.” - Corinthians 13:4
@camy011 I have been given a new heart in Christ, and I couldn't help but cry tears of joy. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the light. He fulfilled the law through love. Love triumphs over all. Suffering in this world is nothing compared to what we gain when we shed this perishable existence. The greatest commanded is to love the Lord thy God with all your heart, soul, and mind.
bible tell believe trinity Trinity is a evil u know why do any any crime jesus christ forgive me no sense to me people believe trinity crime never stop
This is a sick excuse for suffering which persists 2000 years later. The bible is unclear about explanations for suffering - the "free will" theodicy is fairly modern and is not found in the bible.
So he's saying its inconceivable to have a world where people enjoy themselves and God loves us? So if somehow we manage to create utopia then God will cease to love us?
Jesus Christ is the one true God who does show His love so abundently. we are so blessed with a chance to share a relationship through divine love and divine romance.
Not heard this response to the problem of evil before, but I'm not impressed. Wasn't Christ's suffering a means to potentially ending sin? I thought the reason Christ came was because man had fallen into sin.
The problem makes much more sense if you aren't religious
Engaging these ~professional atheist comment makers~ is tricky. They do not follow the rules of debate, logic or civility. The reason, I think, is that their actual motive is not to debate or converse, but to score points against anything good, noble or true [You know: Family, The West, Capitalism]. In short, they are attempting to blow smoke to obscure the Light. THAT is why, when pushed, they curse, do the ad hominem thang or change the subject.
question: if god is ominiscient how is there evil?
answer:
god knows and can do everything
therefore anything that happens means god could have changed it but decided not to, because he knew it would be better if he didnt. what seems evil to us, is actualy a good thing because god could have changed it but decided not to, and whatever god does is good.
he predicted sin and could stop it but didnt because it would better to let it happen in his divine logic.
I disagree. I think it's fair to use sin and evil synonymously, and there is sin in our world. It's the reason Christ Jesus came down to Earth, so that he could pay the debt of our sins. If there were no evil/sin, then that act would have been pointless, because it would not have been needed. The reason God allows evil to happen is: one, it fits into his grand plan for all of creation; and two, our suffering, caused by sin, forces us to rely on Christ.
i did not negate the presence of sin, only evil. sin, the sacrifice, all was forseen and planned long before creation. Before creation god saw the infinite paths the universe could take and chose the perfect one. our existence is an enacment of that perfect universe. true evil can only exist if a: something went against gods perfect plan (wich is impossible as god is omnipotent) or b: god chose to create a non perfect universe (wich is also impossible as god is good and perfect).
I can't seem to find the exact verse that I was thinking of, but Romans 5:3-5 is pretty close to what I was thinking.
So evil does exist. If it didn't this world would be "perfect," which it's not. It's not that I want to prove you wrong, but I want people who read this to get the right idea, the right message.
disagree. the rape of a child is evil. the slaughtering of a sleeping family is evil. out of the heart of man come all kinds of evil-Matt 15:19. don't negate the presence of evil, rather ask, "how can there be evil and God possibly exist".
a single thread cannot see its purpose in the grand design. it may all not make sense now but after everything has come to pass we will see his grand plan. God knew us before we were even born. Isiah 49:1 psalm 139:13. . Before we were born he saw the infinite possibilities our life could take and chose the best. and forget lives for that matter, before creation even started god saw all the infinite paths the universe could take and chose the perfect one. and our existence means he enacted it.
There is terror in the world so Christ can be terrorized? The is really bad theology.Christ is the revelation of who God is exactly by Nature.Evil is knowledge man will not be subject as being powerless too.Terror and all evil is not the direct opposite of God.Evil is knowledge which can only be overcome by a superior Nature,Christ.
No, in suffering, Christ has the authority and right to judge us because he has been through all of it.
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin. - Hebrews 4:15
Yet it's impossible for us to NOT sin, even after being Christian, and we were BORN this way and don't have a choice whether or not we are born this way, but are still held accountable for it? How can we be held accountable for being the way we were born when we weren't even asked if we WANTED to be born?
We've got a mission here on earth to tell others about the Gospel. If you think about it, if the believers were just whisked away from the get-go, nobody would've been able to tell you or I about the Gospel. Romans 10 says that a teacher needs to be sent to those who don't know. So we remain until our time is up on this planet that is full of suffering because that's what Christ did, whom is our example- Philippians 2.
@ProLifeKevin He did completely what you suggest. God created the world perfect. It was so perfect that God could come down into it and walk with Adam in the Garden of Eden. That is the creation story of Genesis.
@SudeK88 What about God in the Old Testament who was not like the Israelites but judged them ever so severely? I think there is a real problem with theology when one says that Jesus had to be like me - when you look at the life of Christ, he was nothing like a fallen human being. If jesus was not fallen, he was nothing like me and I'm okay with that because in his perfection he is my savior. Plus, to say Jesus had to become something endorses the heresy of process theology. For ur encouragement
@SudeK88@SudeK88 What about God in the Old Testament who was not like the Israelites but judged them ever so severely? I think there is a real problem with theology when one says that Jesus had to be like me - when you look at the life of Christ, he was nothing like a fallen human being. If jesus was not fallen, he was nothing like me and I'm okay with that because in his perfection he is my savior. Plus, to say Jesus had to become something endorses the heresy of process theology.
@JohnnieNaked Some knowledge is evil, yes, and some is good.Hence, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.Man is powerless to handle the knowledge of good and evil so he becomes moral or religious.But God is not moral but superior Virtue He sent someone equal and One to Himself to satisfy His justice. I have to admit you want simple answers for the not so simple.But I'll try .God's Spirit is a gift to those who are in relationship to Him.That Spirit disecerns between evil and good.
It's tragic that people support Piper financially to keep this old, worn rhetoric going. You would think that our culture would be far enough along so as to not need these myths any longer. It just goes to show how weak and ignorant we humans still are.
Ya it's a pretty sick point of view I gotta say. It's been (most of) mankind's journey to rid the world of needless pain and suffering and tyranny, even though it will never be done completely, at least it's honorable to TRY, and not RELISH IN IT.
Thanks for your views, very valid points made there and yeah, your logic is sound. I just want to say that God has promised to take away all suffering but that isn't the greatest thing. The greatest thing is to know God and to be with God. Suffering is a result of sin, i.e. alienation from God. There's lots more to say, if you are genuinely interested or really looking for answers feel free to message me.
Explain PRACTICALLY and in non-vague language how we are with God in this life. How do we discern between our thoughts, the devils messages and Gods messages? How do we experience God PRACTICALLY, in the existential sense? What is it like? Does it feel a certain way? Id it JUST a feeling? If it's a relationship, then how does God communicate to us? How do we know what He wants? If He wants us to do something but we want something else, how can we reconcile? How can we have freedom this way?
@JohnnieNaked Questions on freedom is really what life is about.God is the only free Spirit in the universe.However,He gives freedom by regeneration; the born again experience. Knowing Christ, having become a new creation.Have you been born again?Is Christ the justice for your sins? Or are you basically a moral person?God's justice is higher than morality its the death of Christ as a Man.Your either moral or made righteous by Christ.What you want for answers cannot be had in the natural.
This doesnt make much sense to me, does this mean that the best way to show love to my kids is to screw their lives up, so in their pain I can love them?
Is'nt it just a bit Bizzare to be man made-up? I mean assume we had had the power to create something from nothing (the universe) I bet it would have been quite boring. The greatest most celebrated victories always come after the greatest trials hardships and sufferings.
I thought this video was a joke until it ended. Is that what christians believe? Wow, I want no part of it. This god of yours sounds like a schizophrenic megalomaniac. Create a world, screw it up, blame your creation, make them suffer, kill them all with a flood, make them suffer again, blame them again, send your boy, make him suffer (Okay now? Nope), more suffering, glory seeking, threats and ultimately, fear. Fear of eternal suffering. Emotional blackmail. No thanks. Man-made fiction, all.
I'm sorry you feel that way. God created the world perfect, it was not God that screwed up his world, it was us, we screwed it up. We chose our own path, a path away from God and the relationship he intended for us. Jesus Christ came into a world that was full of terror, pain, and suffering because he had to. This is the world that exists as a result of what we chose. Following Christ will bring suffering because Christ suffered. Following Christ is more satisfying than anything in this world.
No, I don't think that God is to blame. God created people with free will, if he stopped sin from coming into the world than he really wouldn't be a God of free will. Just like he let us fall away from him, he wants to see us choose to be with him. God doesn't want people that are programmed to worship, he wants the people that willingly choose him.
Would you honestly care about someone if they didn't care about you? Probably not.
The fact is that God does care, more than you or I could comprehend.
The world that we live in is a world where pain and suffering exists whether you're a believer or not. There is a way to find peace in this world, however, and it is through a relationship with God. Once you accept the great gift that is God's love and Grace your perspective on God will change.
Ya but He knew exactly what we were going to do, but let it happen anyway, and made us anwyay. So, He must be partly to blame, no?
If I KNEW that by having a baby with a girl on one particular night was going to result in us having a child that would end up even worse than Adolf Hitler, and that he would cause twice as much pain and suffering as Hitler did, and I WENT AHEAD AND HAD HIM ANYWAY, even though I was knowingly creating this being with free will, doesn't that make me the most...
If God were all-loving and all-powerful, He would have either have created a world without suffering, or He would have created a world without pointless suffering. There certainly is suffering in the world, so either God is not all-powerful or all-loving, or there is no such thing as pointless suffering.
I think option C would be the correct answer. Piper gives answers to would be examples of 'pointless' or not so pointless suffering in the other parts of this sermon.
this is ridiculous, and anyone who has a functioning brain can see why.
If god is all-loving and all-powerfull, he would have created a world where there was no unnecessary suffering that would STILL support jesus' mission. If he is ALL-POWERFUL, this must be true.
Can we believe that an all-powerful and all-loving being has created a world full of suffering?
First, free will may explain all the suffering humans have created in the world. I think it is important to question whether free will is actually worth it, given what many have done with it. But we will simply accept the claim that free will is essential. It is still the case that much suffering is not explained by free will. Natural disasters: Tsunamis, Hurricanes and droughts are left unexplained.
The usual response is that God allows this because we are fallen, therefor none of us are innocent. Personally, I can't see a loving god allowing a young child to die of thirst because its ancestors (adam and eve) sinned. But we will still grant this notion that original sin explains why god allows for seemingly unnecessary suffering.
But original sin does not account for the massive amount of suffering in non-human animals. Many animals suffer from droughts and natural disasters, and even Christians do not claim that animals have original sin.
The only real answer to this was from Descartes, who said that animals could not suffer.
If you can believe Descartes than you escape the problem of evil, but I doubt that anyone who has spent time near an animal or a pet can believe this.
Please respond with a philosophical answer and not some bible verse that says something like "approach the throne with confidence."
And please don't say that I should just not worry about this. If you can explain how the (non-human caused) suffering of animals can coincide with the Christian notion of god...I will accept Jesus Christ. This should inspire you to research this question, hopefully you will finally accept that there is no proper answer.
I guarantee my comments will be marked as spam or "voted down" in a few days. I love how this always happens when I stump Christians. Instead of trying to listen to the arguments and seeking responses, they avoid anything that suggests they are wrong.
I am fine if you wish to live in a state of ignorance, but don't claim that your philosophy answers all the questions unless you can back it up.
No, I won't mark this as spam or vote it down, I thank you for your comments. Your interest shows that suffering affects you, and it should...it affects all of us. If you really want me to use intellectual arguments I can, but my personal belief is that no amount of reasoning can do away with what is essentially every person's personal struggle.
As I said, Piper talks a lot more about suffering before this particular excerpt. In relation to sin, although he does mention sin corrupting the world, he also mentions how suffering points us to the consequences of sin. Suffering isn't brought about because you have done wrong and you deserve it, but it exists to give us a glimpse of what sin leads to in an eternal context. In other words suffering acts as a warning. As I said above, I fail to see the merit in explaining away suffering.
This video is about the personal aspect of suffering and what God offers to get you through it and the reason why He can get you through it. Perhaps the answers I give cannot justify suffering but I do know a way of getting through it.
As for animals, no argument would suffice your intellectual wanting whilst at the same time address the actual suffering going through by the animals.
And no, I can't pretend that I have all the answers, I am still learning as we all are.
I wouldn't say that I am living in a state of ignorance...I suffer like any other in one way or another. I too have questions of why this is happening. But I have found that no answer to why I suffer deals with my suffering but I know what does. I know Jesus Christ relates with me and is with me in my suffering and that is why I have faith in Him. Through reading and experience I have come to my conclusion. And that is faith.
I can take a stab at your proposed conundrum. The reasons animals suffer is because they don't have the same standing before God as humans do. Animals are no different than plants. God doesn't seek relationship with Animals because they don't matter. Humans have dominion over them and we are free to do with them what we will, but even still we are in a sinful and fallen world where bad things happen. this might not be the popular thing to say, but its the truth.
"God doesn't seek relationship with Animals because they don't matter."
BS, the same is with humans, you don't seek a relationship with animals, because you do not care. That's right, your personal opinion is indistingushable from "god's will", that's why I call you deluded.
Actually thats my personal opinion because God says that we Have dominion over animals, so really I'm obeying God. And shouldn't our opinions look at least somewhat like Gods? He is holy, and merciful and all.
I think nature kills more than humans (see tsunami of 2004). But even if you are right, I granted that suffering caused by humans can be explained by free will. I am looking for an explanation of why God allows pointless suffering not caused by human beings. Please give me this. I am not concerned with weighing evils.
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin. Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.
Then he said to them, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me." Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."
The Will of the Father is absolute...satan is on a leash and can only go as far as God allows.
The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger." Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.
John 9:2-3
His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" "Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.
Evil is evil because it is evil that which opposes and is hostile towards the will, design, purpose and plan of God. Lucifer (now Satan) and man chose evil and in the process corrupted Gods good and perfect creation. God did not ordain or prepare the world we live in that is why He is going to create a New Heaven and a New Earth where righteousness dwells (2 Pet 2:13).
The Scriptures calls Satan the god of this world, the ruler of this age (2 Cor 4:3-4, John 12:31, 16:11).
All of Gods works are righteous therefore this unrighteous world is not the work of God. God is in the process of redeeming mankind through Jesus Christ. All that respond to His invitation will have a place with Him in His New Heaven and New Earth. We must remember what the Scripture repeats over and over again, God is not the only one at work in creation. God has an Adversary Satan, and so do we
For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
Gal 1:3-4
Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father.
1 Pet 5:8-9
Be sober, be vigilant; because our adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. Resist him, ---
(Jesus said) Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and a house divided against a house falls. If Satan also is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? --- He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters.
(Jesus said) The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.
My friend died last year from chain letters repost this or she will come and kill you every thime u here a ring in your ear she will make your life shorter and shorter repost this to 10 other videos (not me)
Come and see my video about what the bible teaches about the wrath of God and who it is revealed against. It is not revealed against the general public. Come and find out.. seek truth and be set free
it isn't arrogant. hindsight is 20/20, and an all-knowing god would have 20/20 foresight. It seems pretty selfish for a god to create a world full of suffering and evil just so that he could feel love.
This "god" fellow has a rather macabre sense of what is right. If he was real, he would be worse than any dictator.
I'm sorry...but the video kinda addresses what you're saying right? Also, last part of your comment...if God is good, then of course we, as humans, will not always agree because we are not good. Thanks for commenting.
There's a fundamental error in your very statement. If there is no God then there is no "right" or "wrong." It follows, then, that if there is a God who created this world, that this God also dictates what is right or wrong. The reason you have a sense of right and wrong (which is universal) is because of God who gave you a conscience. People, however, distorted God's truth and morality: Romans 1:28-32.
I don't see any evidence in support of your idea that morality comes from a god. Why do you think that there cannot be right or wrong without a god?
I don't think that the bible is a very credible source. It was written by men thousands of years ago and doesn't give any evidence. By that same logic I could say that without Prometheus we wouldn't have fire, so the existence of fire is proof that Prometheus exists.
Im not saying that morality is evidence for God. What I am saying is that the reason there is universal morality is because it has been given to us by God. Without God, the holocaust would be fine. Who has the authority to say that it is wrong? In fact, if God didn't exist, it would be better to get rid of all "social undesirables" and to better our species. There has to be a transcendent authority that says what's right and wrong. Also, the bible is the most accurate historical document we have
If you honestly think that the bible is an accurate historical document then there isn't anything I can say to change your mind about anything because you obviously don't value evidence.
There are reasons I believe that the bible is an accurate historical document. Many extrabiblical accounts (e.g. Josephus) verify what is in the bible, not to mention all the manuscripts. No other book has as many manuscripts as the bible. Homer's Iliad comes next to the bible but does not compare. So what "evidence" are you talking about? And based on what do you say what is good or evil? By what authority? Atheists cannot be consistent if they say that morality exists,even Niche admitted that
Yeah, because God can't magically feel fulfilled and self-satisfied in and of His perfect self without creating little men that toil around and eke by a living on Earth, oblivious to who His character actually is. What's there not to understand?
I didn't ask for free will or my ability to reason. i didn't ask for any of this. God made me 100% through and through yet he judges me? It seems apparent to me that God stands in judgment of all of his creations like a hypocrite who really has himself to reward or punish. Man he must be bored out of his mind.
You are right...God did make you through and through and does stand in judgement of all creation. But hypocrite? no, He came to earth and suffered everything and yet did not sin. That's what gives Him the 'right' (if you will) to judge, so what is hypocritical about that? Anyway, creation isn't about judgement, it's about God giving the best perfect thing to you...Himself, pretty cool gift I'd say.
Go preach your perfect love to the starving millions. When they ask why he won't give them food, explain that he got nailed to some sticks for a while, and see if that makes their hunger go away.
Go preach your perfect love to the starving millions. When they ask why he won't give them food, explain that he got nailed to some sticks for a while, and see if that makes their hunger go away.
Yes, still a hypocrite. So what if he suffered. He still knew that billions would suffer on a much greater scale than jesus ever could have. If you push over a line of dominoes, you would be hypocritical to condemn the last domino for falling. You started it, you're responsible for it. Why isn't your god here now fixing things. It's certainly within his power if he created the place. If this is the kind of god you believe in, you are truly disgusting.
No sivlercade, you seem to be forgetting the concept of free-will, which in even atheistic sciences such as psychology, is the one trait that dominates any form of learning. Its your God given ability of choice to follow God or abandon him, and your choices are the guidelines for which God judges you on. In no way is he hypocritical haha...he is omnescient.
God bless for re-posting this. This is an amazing truth of the Gospel and i can see the discussion this time is way more gracious than the first time.
The challenge, as I see it, is not to explain why Jesus suffered and died for us. If God wants to suffer to show us his love, then that is his business.
But if God is all-powerful and all-knowing and all-loving, then he could have suffered for us AND gotten maximal glory AND made a world with a bit less evil in it (by, for example, saving one of the children gang raped and gassed during the Holocaust).
God revels Himself to each person individually. For example, Abraham was taken out of his own country from his own gods. God is ALWAYS working in and around everyone, no matter where they are or what is happening to them, they just have to see it.
And No, God couldn't have done that...not that I am limiting God, but because of God's perfect nature, this is the perfect will. God won't create a stone he can't lift because that would make Him imperfect and thus, not God. Hope this helps a bit!
So did god go up to this innocent, raped, and eventually murdered girl and ask what she thought of his perfect plan? Oh, and citing the bible is evidence of nothing. I could write a book and say that abraham stayed put for his whole life, and my book would have just as much supporting evidence as your book.
Hmmmm...so millions suffered and died during the holocaust so that Christ could suffer and die. But surely Christ could have suffered and died without all that other suffering? Why not let Christ suffer but still stop the holocaust?
Piper is committed to the odd position that God would have been less glorified if Hitler had built hospitals and schools and churches instead of concentration camps. Whatever God Piper may be talking about, that is not the God we meet in Jesus.
Good point, but...no, let me explain. Christ's suffering leads to Him having the authority to judge because He has been through everything we go through. Plus it also means He can get us through our suffering. Yes, as harsh as it sounds, God would have been less glorified. God is perfect and His will is to glorify Himself. So, by logic, everything He has done, or allowed to happen is according to His perfect will. 2 Corinthians 12:9-10. Thx for comment.
Thanks for your kind reply...I've been to a few of Piper's conferences and I appreciate his clarity of thought, even if I often disagree.
One of the difficulties with this position is that it seems to deny God's omnipotence. It seems to imply that:
MG) God could not get maximal glory for himself by creating a world with less evil.
But God, being God, is certainly powerful enough and knowledgeable enough to get maximal glory with less evil in the world. Why should we believe otherwise?
Well, I've often faced the question...could God have done it any other way than Jesus? I would think that He is certainly powerful enough to, but He chose to do it this way. Now because God is perfect, HIS way is perfect, so, THIS way is perfect. Same logic applies to suffering in the world.
God is omipotent and in suffering He is still in control. Jesus could have taken Himself off the cross, but He decides not to, He decides to do it this way.
So it's perfect that all those died on 9/11, the holocaust was perfect, Stalin should be applauded for carrying out his part of the plan, and it's perfectly okay to molest children because it's all part of the perfect plan? Yeah, Jesus got nailed to some sticks for a few days, so he's now been through more than starving children, AIDS sufferers, and so on? Pretending for a moment that he was real, Jesus did an insignificant amount of suffering.
Firstly, thanks for taking time to write you comments, as with all things, scrutiny is needed. But no, it's not perfectly ok to molest children, it's not perfectly ok to slaughter thousands. But the perfect plan is that despite all of this, God will be glorified. Also, do your research before making accusations of validity. There are more historical documents about Jesus than there are about Caesar (that was an example).
Being nailed to the cross was not the greatest suffering, being separated from the father whilst Jesus was on there was but that's theology, and that would take ages to explain. Hunger, betrayal, whipping, desertion, betrayed by your own people, validity of birth questioned, born in a stable. The suffering is not limited to the cross, read about His whole life and see for yourself. Also, on the cross, he was naked for all to see, that's part of Crucifixion,no towel like in the paintings.
But how can a perfect plan include such great injustices? Why have these innocent children been made to suffer while the likes of Göring can live in comfort?
There is no evidence of jesus ever having existed. You cannot say there is more historical evidence of some fictional jew wandering around than there is of a Roman Emperor. Have you noticed how tons of god-characters all have mostly the same story as Jesus?
Examples please. As for evidence, there are many Jewish and Roman records of Jesus as well as the Christian sources.
Yeah, there are injustices, no one will say otherwise. We all suffer, some more than most but God promises the oppressed that He will take revenge for them. Those who oppress will face the consequences. This life is nothing compared to the eternal. The plan is in action and the outcome will be perfect.
And yeah, I understand your frustrations. I too see the injustice and I question too and I know God is heart broken by all of this. In my own sufferings (not that I am saying I can compare to everyone's suffering), I have always learned so much and I'm sure you'll find the same thing too. God has given us free will so it's up to us to sort out this world before God returns to judge. I will put my hand up and say I have not done enough, but I am trying, and we all need to.
So God is like the arsonist who burns a house down so they can run in and save the family from the fire and be the hero? John Piper speaking on God's behalf is truly arrogant.
chrispalser 1 month ago
@flatnerd 1:43
semajgnik 3 months ago
@THChristus my thoughts exactly. I love refuting thr problem of evil with logical philosophical arguments, but piper's answer here goes above and beyond.
semajgnik 3 months ago
I have never heard any better answer than this one. This tops all philosophy, anthropology, and all this cognitive bickering about God and evil. I LOVE John Piper.
THChristus 5 months ago
OMG, scary stuff. So all the suffering and terror and pain is about God not finding any other way to show us his love. Oppression, torture, rape, disease, children dying in agony, lives destroyed...sickening. I would have done it differently.
flatnerd 7 months ago
Are you a catholic ? Do you pray to God or to Jesus. Jesus is love, he's our savior and may those who redicule be shown the truth.
SomeUser9753 8 months ago
All the Mel Gibson like beating? !!
snuju1 9 months ago
@TheHigherVoltage - Although what you've just stated SOUNDS right, it's illogical. Without God the concepts of good and evil are meaningless. You are hijacking Christian theological positions to make an emotional case because you hate God and His Christ. You have perverted the definition of evil from "disobedience against God's precepts" to "causing humans pain and suffering". Thus you are exchanging the glory of God for your own sin and judging the inscrutable Judge of all.
anotherxredeemed 9 months ago
Evil is telling children they are born evil. Evil is telling children they are only good if they obey without thinking. Evil is pretending the worst atrocities imaginable are forgivable, but disbelief is unforgivable. Evil is demanding that unquestioning faith is a virtue. Evil is claiming justice can be obtained by a scapegoating a blood sacrifice. Evil is pretending "all-loving" includes standing by while billions are tortured forever.
Christianity is evil.
TheHigherVoltage 9 months ago
@steelbrushtattoo your argument is a very specific version of the evil/suffering argument against Christianity, which fails to hold water. God's choice to permit humans to enslave one another (and then to provide laws and rules around that practice) does not negate His love. In fact, it shows His mercy that He would provide laws to protect His people from enslaving themselves completely to one another. The law foreshadowed the redemption which would eventually come in Christ for His elect.
anotherxredeemed 9 months ago
@steelbrushtattoo For some reason I just love being on the receiving end of this. What makes you think that I not share your impression of God as a mythical character?
TheConcolor 9 months ago
@steelbrushtattoo I think arrogance is speaking on topics of which you know nothing. If you wish someone not to reply to you, don't leave a reply.
ronathanedwards 9 months ago
@steelbrushtattoo I think the gullible one here, based on your statements concerning the Bible, is actually yourself. I'm sorry you got so worked up over something that can be reasonable. But it makes me question, why did you come to watch this video?
ronathanedwards 9 months ago
@steelbrushtattoo Umm It should be educated "grown-upS", it should be in the plural if you don't use an indefinite article.
Do you have some original thoughts or are you just happy being a parrot. Study, you might learn something.
ronathanedwards 9 months ago
@steelbrushtattoo Those who don't understand books written for grown-ups shouldn't comment on them. C.S. Lewis.
ronathanedwards 9 months ago
knowwale, you have no logical argument. Why should the Bible be forced into your definition of love? When you say "if God loved me, then He should do "x" for me," you're only revealing your human ignorance. God decreed evil so that Christ could be revealed and exalted above all else, and so that He could show His divine attributes for all eternity - mercy and justice, love and wrath, holiness and compassion. These are things that could not be revealed unless evil existed - but only for a time.
anotherxredeemed 9 months ago
evil exists.
god is all powerfull, so shouldnt he stop it?
god is all loving, so shouldnt he want to stop it?
god is all knowing, so he would know how to stop it and whats going on?
If god really wanted to show his love for us, he would remove suffering and evil from the start of creation, cant say he couldnt, or he didnt know about it, or he didnt know how, or he didnt want to.
peteg391 9 months ago
@peteg391 Or he could have not bothered at all and the three of them just play monopoly for eternity.
knowwaie 9 months ago
so ignorant
ItsTheUPSMan 10 months ago
I don't get it.
Why does God have to create a horrible world so he can send himself down and be tortured in order to forgive some creatures that he made in his image when they broke a law that he made himself before they even had the knowledge of good and evil?
You may call me arrogant, but I'll still ask the question - and if you can't answer it, then it does not matter what you call me.
TheConcolor 11 months ago
I mean, killing your own son to show your love when you're all powerful is a completely empty gesture. Shouldn't that be obvious?
TheVVanderingStar 11 months ago
what abunch of horseshit!!!
pattietatoo 11 months ago
this geezas on a mad one
BCFCSEAN 1 year ago
@steelbrushtattoo Anyone can make an argument about anything, as you have so aptly done. Your real fight and your real argument is with and against God, because of what you think the Bible is teaching. You're talking like God instituted slavery. Although the Bible talks about slavery, it doesn't promote or condone it, just as the Bible talks about divorce, polygamy, murder, and a number of other sins. It's just the historical facts of the various sinful acts of mankind.
runotit 1 year ago
First, if you came to this 3 and a half minute video expecting a fully nuanced discussion of the problem of evil, you came to scorn, not to listen. @DyXXed Logical Fallacy: Faulty Analogy. Thankfully, you are not God and your son is not Jesus @83zeus Thanks for giving us a textbook example of the arrogance Piper mentioned @allfornot I'm impressed you could load that many undefended assumptions into a single post. Every sentence in your post contains an apriorism. Arguing is easy when you...don't
brhodes625 1 year ago
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OllieMugwump 1 year ago
i wish god was smart/powerful enought to showed his love without suffering. truely an all powerful god could manage that.
83zeus 1 year ago
This is like saying that to show my son that I really love him, I'm going to invite a rapist in my house, and allow him to rape him as much as it pleases him, and then arrive at the last second to save him.
Without this, I could never show him true love. No way. I must set things up so that he suffers, and then save him from it. Millions of people must be raped, tortured and killed, so that God can show us that He really loves it.
Yes, that's Calvinist logic for you.
DyXXed 1 year ago
Comment removed
DyXXed 1 year ago
Amazing explanation, and it is just the beginning of the answer.
“Love is patient; love is kind and envies no one. Love is never boastful, nor conceited, nor rude; never selfish, not quick to take offense. There is nothing love cannot face; there is no limit to its faith, its hope, and endurance. In a word, there are three things that last forever: faith, hope, and love; but the greatest of them all is love.” - Corinthians 13:4
camy011 1 year ago
@camy011 I have been given a new heart in Christ, and I couldn't help but cry tears of joy. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the light. He fulfilled the law through love. Love triumphs over all. Suffering in this world is nothing compared to what we gain when we shed this perishable existence. The greatest commanded is to love the Lord thy God with all your heart, soul, and mind.
camy011 1 year ago
nonsence
Trelli28 1 year ago
bible tell believe trinity Trinity is a evil u know why do any any crime jesus christ forgive me no sense to me people believe trinity crime never stop
MrKhan246 1 year ago
This is a sick excuse for suffering which persists 2000 years later. The bible is unclear about explanations for suffering - the "free will" theodicy is fairly modern and is not found in the bible.
So he's saying its inconceivable to have a world where people enjoy themselves and God loves us? So if somehow we manage to create utopia then God will cease to love us?
sniperontheroof123 1 year ago
The video description makes no sense. If people are suffering, isn't that because of god's will?
So who are you to interfere and override his will?
ProLifeKevin 1 year ago
Jesus Christ is the one true God who does show His love so abundently. we are so blessed with a chance to share a relationship through divine love and divine romance.
TrueBeliever177 1 year ago
Not heard this response to the problem of evil before, but I'm not impressed. Wasn't Christ's suffering a means to potentially ending sin? I thought the reason Christ came was because man had fallen into sin.
The problem makes much more sense if you aren't religious
tommyk77 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Engaging these ~professional atheist comment makers~ is tricky. They do not follow the rules of debate, logic or civility. The reason, I think, is that their actual motive is not to debate or converse, but to score points against anything good, noble or true [You know: Family, The West, Capitalism]. In short, they are attempting to blow smoke to obscure the Light. THAT is why, when pushed, they curse, do the ad hominem thang or change the subject.
robbbingham 2 years ago
it's a great video :) God bless Piper....thanks for loading it up !!! who sings in the background? could you tell me ??
hummesz 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
i think it could be
Guide Me O Thou Great Jehovah [Jeremy Casella]
damianos1122 1 year ago
question: if god is ominiscient how is there evil?
answer:
god knows and can do everything
therefore anything that happens means god could have changed it but decided not to, because he knew it would be better if he didnt. what seems evil to us, is actualy a good thing because god could have changed it but decided not to, and whatever god does is good.
he predicted sin and could stop it but didnt because it would better to let it happen in his divine logic.
therefore evil does not exist
nairda55555 2 years ago
if anyone disagrees or has comments about my statement, please, speak.
nairda55555 2 years ago
I disagree. I think it's fair to use sin and evil synonymously, and there is sin in our world. It's the reason Christ Jesus came down to Earth, so that he could pay the debt of our sins. If there were no evil/sin, then that act would have been pointless, because it would not have been needed. The reason God allows evil to happen is: one, it fits into his grand plan for all of creation; and two, our suffering, caused by sin, forces us to rely on Christ.
SDZwaschka 1 year ago
i did not negate the presence of sin, only evil. sin, the sacrifice, all was forseen and planned long before creation. Before creation god saw the infinite paths the universe could take and chose the perfect one. our existence is an enacment of that perfect universe. true evil can only exist if a: something went against gods perfect plan (wich is impossible as god is omnipotent) or b: god chose to create a non perfect universe (wich is also impossible as god is good and perfect).
nairda55555 1 year ago
I can't seem to find the exact verse that I was thinking of, but Romans 5:3-5 is pretty close to what I was thinking.
So evil does exist. If it didn't this world would be "perfect," which it's not. It's not that I want to prove you wrong, but I want people who read this to get the right idea, the right message.
SDZwaschka 1 year ago
disagree. the rape of a child is evil. the slaughtering of a sleeping family is evil. out of the heart of man come all kinds of evil-Matt 15:19. don't negate the presence of evil, rather ask, "how can there be evil and God possibly exist".
sls3289 2 years ago
a single thread cannot see its purpose in the grand design. it may all not make sense now but after everything has come to pass we will see his grand plan. God knew us before we were even born. Isiah 49:1 psalm 139:13. . Before we were born he saw the infinite possibilities our life could take and chose the best. and forget lives for that matter, before creation even started god saw all the infinite paths the universe could take and chose the perfect one. and our existence means he enacted it.
nairda55555 2 years ago
Then how come no Christians agree with each other?
JohnnieNaked 2 years ago
There is terror in the world so Christ can be terrorized? The is really bad theology.Christ is the revelation of who God is exactly by Nature.Evil is knowledge man will not be subject as being powerless too.Terror and all evil is not the direct opposite of God.Evil is knowledge which can only be overcome by a superior Nature,Christ.
polopowers1 2 years ago
No, in suffering, Christ has the authority and right to judge us because he has been through all of it.
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin. - Hebrews 4:15
SudeK88 2 years ago
Yet it's impossible for us to NOT sin, even after being Christian, and we were BORN this way and don't have a choice whether or not we are born this way, but are still held accountable for it? How can we be held accountable for being the way we were born when we weren't even asked if we WANTED to be born?
JohnnieNaked 2 years ago
@SudeK88 Then why compound human suffering through hell? If he truly emphathised with us, we'd be in heaven from the get-go.
ProLifeKevin 1 year ago
We've got a mission here on earth to tell others about the Gospel. If you think about it, if the believers were just whisked away from the get-go, nobody would've been able to tell you or I about the Gospel. Romans 10 says that a teacher needs to be sent to those who don't know. So we remain until our time is up on this planet that is full of suffering because that's what Christ did, whom is our example- Philippians 2.
jtizzle82 1 year ago
@ProLifeKevin He did completely what you suggest. God created the world perfect. It was so perfect that God could come down into it and walk with Adam in the Garden of Eden. That is the creation story of Genesis.
FourWordLetter524 1 year ago
@SudeK88 What about God in the Old Testament who was not like the Israelites but judged them ever so severely? I think there is a real problem with theology when one says that Jesus had to be like me - when you look at the life of Christ, he was nothing like a fallen human being. If jesus was not fallen, he was nothing like me and I'm okay with that because in his perfection he is my savior. Plus, to say Jesus had to become something endorses the heresy of process theology. For ur encouragement
allfornot 1 year ago
@SudeK88 @SudeK88 What about God in the Old Testament who was not like the Israelites but judged them ever so severely? I think there is a real problem with theology when one says that Jesus had to be like me - when you look at the life of Christ, he was nothing like a fallen human being. If jesus was not fallen, he was nothing like me and I'm okay with that because in his perfection he is my savior. Plus, to say Jesus had to become something endorses the heresy of process theology.
allfornot 1 year ago
Knowledge is evil?
JohnnieNaked 2 years ago
@JohnnieNaked Some knowledge is evil, yes, and some is good.Hence, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.Man is powerless to handle the knowledge of good and evil so he becomes moral or religious.But God is not moral but superior Virtue He sent someone equal and One to Himself to satisfy His justice. I have to admit you want simple answers for the not so simple.But I'll try .God's Spirit is a gift to those who are in relationship to Him.That Spirit disecerns between evil and good.
polopowers1 2 years ago
@JohnnieNaked I see my error I should have said the knowledge of evil in man he is powerless too.
polopowers1 2 years ago
Idiot. Mel Gibson is cool.
tiaraproductions 2 years ago
It's tragic that people support Piper financially to keep this old, worn rhetoric going. You would think that our culture would be far enough along so as to not need these myths any longer. It just goes to show how weak and ignorant we humans still are.
pozzdonn 2 years ago
This is dumb because its an explanation of result without explanation of what evil is in relationship to God and man.
polopowers1 2 years ago
There are lots of other videos which explain what evil is...but that isn't the purpose of what Piper is saying.
SudeK88 2 years ago
William Lane Craig is WAY better than this guy.
MrOldSlacker 2 years ago
They have different approaches.
SudeK88 2 years ago
This is utterly disgusting and pointless...
crankovator 2 years ago
So all of the suffing experienced by humanity was just a sideshow for Christ?
That is so incredibly stupid.
'Lets not create a utopia but a S***Hole where I can torture people*
Is this Gods plan?
Lame.
You can be good without needing to torture people
MangaFanGuy 2 years ago
Ya it's a pretty sick point of view I gotta say. It's been (most of) mankind's journey to rid the world of needless pain and suffering and tyranny, even though it will never be done completely, at least it's honorable to TRY, and not RELISH IN IT.
JohnnieNaked 2 years ago
Thanks for your views, very valid points made there and yeah, your logic is sound. I just want to say that God has promised to take away all suffering but that isn't the greatest thing. The greatest thing is to know God and to be with God. Suffering is a result of sin, i.e. alienation from God. There's lots more to say, if you are genuinely interested or really looking for answers feel free to message me.
SudeK88 2 years ago
Explain PRACTICALLY and in non-vague language how we are with God in this life. How do we discern between our thoughts, the devils messages and Gods messages? How do we experience God PRACTICALLY, in the existential sense? What is it like? Does it feel a certain way? Id it JUST a feeling? If it's a relationship, then how does God communicate to us? How do we know what He wants? If He wants us to do something but we want something else, how can we reconcile? How can we have freedom this way?
JohnnieNaked 2 years ago
@JohnnieNaked Questions on freedom is really what life is about.God is the only free Spirit in the universe.However,He gives freedom by regeneration; the born again experience. Knowing Christ, having become a new creation.Have you been born again?Is Christ the justice for your sins? Or are you basically a moral person?God's justice is higher than morality its the death of Christ as a Man.Your either moral or made righteous by Christ.What you want for answers cannot be had in the natural.
polopowers1 2 years ago
This doesnt make much sense to me, does this mean that the best way to show love to my kids is to screw their lives up, so in their pain I can love them?
MrDP21 2 years ago
can someone please tell me who sings this song, or where i can find this version of the song?
lunita132 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
i think it could be this
Guide Me O Thou Great Jehovah [Jeremy Casella]
damianos1122 1 year ago
Is'nt it just a bit Bizzare to be man made-up? I mean assume we had had the power to create something from nothing (the universe) I bet it would have been quite boring. The greatest most celebrated victories always come after the greatest trials hardships and sufferings.
leifcoburn 2 years ago
I thought this video was a joke until it ended. Is that what christians believe? Wow, I want no part of it. This god of yours sounds like a schizophrenic megalomaniac. Create a world, screw it up, blame your creation, make them suffer, kill them all with a flood, make them suffer again, blame them again, send your boy, make him suffer (Okay now? Nope), more suffering, glory seeking, threats and ultimately, fear. Fear of eternal suffering. Emotional blackmail. No thanks. Man-made fiction, all.
mistermellow001 2 years ago
I'm sorry you feel that way. God created the world perfect, it was not God that screwed up his world, it was us, we screwed it up. We chose our own path, a path away from God and the relationship he intended for us. Jesus Christ came into a world that was full of terror, pain, and suffering because he had to. This is the world that exists as a result of what we chose. Following Christ will bring suffering because Christ suffered. Following Christ is more satisfying than anything in this world.
XxKuyperxX 2 years ago
But God knew exactly that we were going to do it and created us anyway, so isn't He partly to blame?
JohnnieNaked 2 years ago
No, I don't think that God is to blame. God created people with free will, if he stopped sin from coming into the world than he really wouldn't be a God of free will. Just like he let us fall away from him, he wants to see us choose to be with him. God doesn't want people that are programmed to worship, he wants the people that willingly choose him.
XxKuyperxX 2 years ago
"he wants to see us choose to be with him"
so basically if we choose not to accept him, then suffering righteously ensues.
You need a huge enema to disimpact all the bullshit inside your head. But you are correct, God is not to blame- He just doesn't give a shit.
lunita132 2 years ago
Would you honestly care about someone if they didn't care about you? Probably not.
The fact is that God does care, more than you or I could comprehend.
The world that we live in is a world where pain and suffering exists whether you're a believer or not. There is a way to find peace in this world, however, and it is through a relationship with God. Once you accept the great gift that is God's love and Grace your perspective on God will change.
XxKuyperxX 2 years ago
I care a lot about others who don't seem to give a crap about me. Whether or not they do is besides the point.
JohnnieNaked 2 years ago
Ya but He knew exactly what we were going to do, but let it happen anyway, and made us anwyay. So, He must be partly to blame, no?
If I KNEW that by having a baby with a girl on one particular night was going to result in us having a child that would end up even worse than Adolf Hitler, and that he would cause twice as much pain and suffering as Hitler did, and I WENT AHEAD AND HAD HIM ANYWAY, even though I was knowingly creating this being with free will, doesn't that make me the most...
JohnnieNaked 2 years ago
...disgusting immoral person ever? Even worse than the child I bring into the world?
JohnnieNaked 2 years ago
I mean, I knew exactly what was going to happen, I had complete forsight, but I did it anyway. You'd have to be sick to think this is OK.
JohnnieNaked 2 years ago
interesting, god acts just like that if he didn't exist at all... It's a huge problem for believers :) And great amusement for atheists.
MaikUniversum 2 years ago
If God were all-loving and all-powerful, He would have either have created a world without suffering, or He would have created a world without pointless suffering. There certainly is suffering in the world, so either God is not all-powerful or all-loving, or there is no such thing as pointless suffering.
kLuTzGP 2 years ago
I think option C would be the correct answer. Piper gives answers to would be examples of 'pointless' or not so pointless suffering in the other parts of this sermon.
SudeK88 2 years ago
this is ridiculous, and anyone who has a functioning brain can see why.
If god is all-loving and all-powerfull, he would have created a world where there was no unnecessary suffering that would STILL support jesus' mission. If he is ALL-POWERFUL, this must be true.
sentientist 2 years ago 2
For love, there must be choice, for choice, there must be free will. With free will, there will be suffering.
SudeK88 2 years ago
Can we believe that an all-powerful and all-loving being has created a world full of suffering?
First, free will may explain all the suffering humans have created in the world. I think it is important to question whether free will is actually worth it, given what many have done with it. But we will simply accept the claim that free will is essential. It is still the case that much suffering is not explained by free will. Natural disasters: Tsunamis, Hurricanes and droughts are left unexplained.
sentientist 2 years ago
The usual response is that God allows this because we are fallen, therefor none of us are innocent. Personally, I can't see a loving god allowing a young child to die of thirst because its ancestors (adam and eve) sinned. But we will still grant this notion that original sin explains why god allows for seemingly unnecessary suffering.
sentientist 2 years ago
But original sin does not account for the massive amount of suffering in non-human animals. Many animals suffer from droughts and natural disasters, and even Christians do not claim that animals have original sin.
The only real answer to this was from Descartes, who said that animals could not suffer.
If you can believe Descartes than you escape the problem of evil, but I doubt that anyone who has spent time near an animal or a pet can believe this.
sentientist 2 years ago
Please respond with a philosophical answer and not some bible verse that says something like "approach the throne with confidence."
And please don't say that I should just not worry about this. If you can explain how the (non-human caused) suffering of animals can coincide with the Christian notion of god...I will accept Jesus Christ. This should inspire you to research this question, hopefully you will finally accept that there is no proper answer.
sentientist 2 years ago
I guarantee my comments will be marked as spam or "voted down" in a few days. I love how this always happens when I stump Christians. Instead of trying to listen to the arguments and seeking responses, they avoid anything that suggests they are wrong.
I am fine if you wish to live in a state of ignorance, but don't claim that your philosophy answers all the questions unless you can back it up.
sentientist 2 years ago
No, I won't mark this as spam or vote it down, I thank you for your comments. Your interest shows that suffering affects you, and it should...it affects all of us. If you really want me to use intellectual arguments I can, but my personal belief is that no amount of reasoning can do away with what is essentially every person's personal struggle.
SudeK88 2 years ago
As I said, Piper talks a lot more about suffering before this particular excerpt. In relation to sin, although he does mention sin corrupting the world, he also mentions how suffering points us to the consequences of sin. Suffering isn't brought about because you have done wrong and you deserve it, but it exists to give us a glimpse of what sin leads to in an eternal context. In other words suffering acts as a warning. As I said above, I fail to see the merit in explaining away suffering.
SudeK88 2 years ago
This video is about the personal aspect of suffering and what God offers to get you through it and the reason why He can get you through it. Perhaps the answers I give cannot justify suffering but I do know a way of getting through it.
As for animals, no argument would suffice your intellectual wanting whilst at the same time address the actual suffering going through by the animals.
And no, I can't pretend that I have all the answers, I am still learning as we all are.
SudeK88 2 years ago
I wouldn't say that I am living in a state of ignorance...I suffer like any other in one way or another. I too have questions of why this is happening. But I have found that no answer to why I suffer deals with my suffering but I know what does. I know Jesus Christ relates with me and is with me in my suffering and that is why I have faith in Him. Through reading and experience I have come to my conclusion. And that is faith.
SudeK88 2 years ago
I can take a stab at your proposed conundrum. The reasons animals suffer is because they don't have the same standing before God as humans do. Animals are no different than plants. God doesn't seek relationship with Animals because they don't matter. Humans have dominion over them and we are free to do with them what we will, but even still we are in a sinful and fallen world where bad things happen. this might not be the popular thing to say, but its the truth.
thesamsin 2 years ago
"God doesn't seek relationship with Animals because they don't matter."
BS, the same is with humans, you don't seek a relationship with animals, because you do not care. That's right, your personal opinion is indistingushable from "god's will", that's why I call you deluded.
MaikUniversum 2 years ago
Actually thats my personal opinion because God says that we Have dominion over animals, so really I'm obeying God. And shouldn't our opinions look at least somewhat like Gods? He is holy, and merciful and all.
thesamsin 2 years ago
...........or we can look from non-biblical point of view and reason from that.
YoungSpotUBrock 2 years ago
well.
Humans kill each other more than nature kill us..
or we can agree that both are equally evil
YoungSpotUBrock 2 years ago
I think nature kills more than humans (see tsunami of 2004). But even if you are right, I granted that suffering caused by humans can be explained by free will. I am looking for an explanation of why God allows pointless suffering not caused by human beings. Please give me this. I am not concerned with weighing evils.
sentientist 2 years ago
Hebrews 4:15-16
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin. Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.
SudeK88 2 years ago
Matthew 26:38-39
Then he said to them, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me." Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."
The Will of the Father is absolute...satan is on a leash and can only go as far as God allows.
SudeK88 2 years ago
thanks for your comments but here's a few more verses...
Job 1:12
The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger." Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.
John 9:2-3
His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" "Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.
SudeK88 2 years ago
Evil is evil because it is evil that which opposes and is hostile towards the will, design, purpose and plan of God. Lucifer (now Satan) and man chose evil and in the process corrupted Gods good and perfect creation. God did not ordain or prepare the world we live in that is why He is going to create a New Heaven and a New Earth where righteousness dwells (2 Pet 2:13).
The Scriptures calls Satan the god of this world, the ruler of this age (2 Cor 4:3-4, John 12:31, 16:11).
newjdk7 2 years ago
All of Gods works are righteous therefore this unrighteous world is not the work of God. God is in the process of redeeming mankind through Jesus Christ. All that respond to His invitation will have a place with Him in His New Heaven and New Earth. We must remember what the Scripture repeats over and over again, God is not the only one at work in creation. God has an Adversary Satan, and so do we
newjdk7 2 years ago
1 John 3:7
For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
Gal 1:3-4
Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father.
1 Pet 5:8-9
Be sober, be vigilant; because our adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. Resist him, ---
newjdk7 2 years ago
Lk 11:17-18, 23
(Jesus said) Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and a house divided against a house falls. If Satan also is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? --- He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters.
John 10:10
(Jesus said) The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.
newjdk7 2 years ago
May god kiss my ass.
luxfair 2 years ago
haha well said
sentientist 2 years ago
What a great video! What version of "Guide Me O Though Great Jehovah" is this? Who sings it? Thanks.
ramezgabrail 2 years ago
yes who is singing? love it!
forwardslider 2 years ago
i think i found it Guide Me O Thou Great Jehovah [Jeremy Casella]
forwardslider 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
My friend died last year from chain letters repost this or she will come and kill you every thime u here a ring in your ear she will make your life shorter and shorter repost this to 10 other videos (not me)
KevinPaul444 2 years ago
this is a completely new answer to the question "why is there evil in the world?" I've ever heard
thnguyen24 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Come and see my video about what the bible teaches about the wrath of God and who it is revealed against. It is not revealed against the general public. Come and find out.. seek truth and be set free
headachehealer 2 years ago
it isn't arrogant. hindsight is 20/20, and an all-knowing god would have 20/20 foresight. It seems pretty selfish for a god to create a world full of suffering and evil just so that he could feel love.
This "god" fellow has a rather macabre sense of what is right. If he was real, he would be worse than any dictator.
DarthLeviathus 3 years ago
I'm sorry...but the video kinda addresses what you're saying right? Also, last part of your comment...if God is good, then of course we, as humans, will not always agree because we are not good. Thanks for commenting.
SudeK88 3 years ago
There's a fundamental error in your very statement. If there is no God then there is no "right" or "wrong." It follows, then, that if there is a God who created this world, that this God also dictates what is right or wrong. The reason you have a sense of right and wrong (which is universal) is because of God who gave you a conscience. People, however, distorted God's truth and morality: Romans 1:28-32.
ramezgabrail 2 years ago
I don't see any evidence in support of your idea that morality comes from a god. Why do you think that there cannot be right or wrong without a god?
I don't think that the bible is a very credible source. It was written by men thousands of years ago and doesn't give any evidence. By that same logic I could say that without Prometheus we wouldn't have fire, so the existence of fire is proof that Prometheus exists.
DarthLeviathus 2 years ago
Im not saying that morality is evidence for God. What I am saying is that the reason there is universal morality is because it has been given to us by God. Without God, the holocaust would be fine. Who has the authority to say that it is wrong? In fact, if God didn't exist, it would be better to get rid of all "social undesirables" and to better our species. There has to be a transcendent authority that says what's right and wrong. Also, the bible is the most accurate historical document we have
ramezgabrail 2 years ago
If you honestly think that the bible is an accurate historical document then there isn't anything I can say to change your mind about anything because you obviously don't value evidence.
DarthLeviathus 2 years ago
There are reasons I believe that the bible is an accurate historical document. Many extrabiblical accounts (e.g. Josephus) verify what is in the bible, not to mention all the manuscripts. No other book has as many manuscripts as the bible. Homer's Iliad comes next to the bible but does not compare. So what "evidence" are you talking about? And based on what do you say what is good or evil? By what authority? Atheists cannot be consistent if they say that morality exists,even Niche admitted that
ramezgabrail 2 years ago
Yeah, because God can't magically feel fulfilled and self-satisfied in and of His perfect self without creating little men that toil around and eke by a living on Earth, oblivious to who His character actually is. What's there not to understand?
MicheasTheMighty 2 years ago
I didn't ask for free will or my ability to reason. i didn't ask for any of this. God made me 100% through and through yet he judges me? It seems apparent to me that God stands in judgment of all of his creations like a hypocrite who really has himself to reward or punish. Man he must be bored out of his mind.
silvercade 3 years ago
You are right...God did make you through and through and does stand in judgement of all creation. But hypocrite? no, He came to earth and suffered everything and yet did not sin. That's what gives Him the 'right' (if you will) to judge, so what is hypocritical about that? Anyway, creation isn't about judgement, it's about God giving the best perfect thing to you...Himself, pretty cool gift I'd say.
SudeK88 3 years ago
Amen! And that just humbles me and makes me love him right back. Its His Perfect Love !
ChupakabraKing 3 years ago
Go preach your perfect love to the starving millions. When they ask why he won't give them food, explain that he got nailed to some sticks for a while, and see if that makes their hunger go away.
DarthAtheos666 3 years ago
Go preach your perfect love to the starving millions. When they ask why he won't give them food, explain that he got nailed to some sticks for a while, and see if that makes their hunger go away.
DarthAtheos666 3 years ago
Yes, still a hypocrite. So what if he suffered. He still knew that billions would suffer on a much greater scale than jesus ever could have. If you push over a line of dominoes, you would be hypocritical to condemn the last domino for falling. You started it, you're responsible for it. Why isn't your god here now fixing things. It's certainly within his power if he created the place. If this is the kind of god you believe in, you are truly disgusting.
DarthAtheos666 3 years ago
No sivlercade, you seem to be forgetting the concept of free-will, which in even atheistic sciences such as psychology, is the one trait that dominates any form of learning. Its your God given ability of choice to follow God or abandon him, and your choices are the guidelines for which God judges you on. In no way is he hypocritical haha...he is omnescient.
LilDavidLoverHBB 3 years ago
It could be argued that free will is nothing more than an illusion. I would suggest you read John Mill and then make up your own mind.
DarthLeviathus 3 years ago
This is the circular argument of all circular arguments.
64kix 3 years ago
God bless for re-posting this. This is an amazing truth of the Gospel and i can see the discussion this time is way more gracious than the first time.
Newtonstewart 3 years ago
The challenge, as I see it, is not to explain why Jesus suffered and died for us. If God wants to suffer to show us his love, then that is his business.
But if God is all-powerful and all-knowing and all-loving, then he could have suffered for us AND gotten maximal glory AND made a world with a bit less evil in it (by, for example, saving one of the children gang raped and gassed during the Holocaust).
dgb448 3 years ago 2
God revels Himself to each person individually. For example, Abraham was taken out of his own country from his own gods. God is ALWAYS working in and around everyone, no matter where they are or what is happening to them, they just have to see it.
And No, God couldn't have done that...not that I am limiting God, but because of God's perfect nature, this is the perfect will. God won't create a stone he can't lift because that would make Him imperfect and thus, not God. Hope this helps a bit!
SudeK88 3 years ago
So did god go up to this innocent, raped, and eventually murdered girl and ask what she thought of his perfect plan? Oh, and citing the bible is evidence of nothing. I could write a book and say that abraham stayed put for his whole life, and my book would have just as much supporting evidence as your book.
DarthAtheos666 3 years ago
Hmmmm...so millions suffered and died during the holocaust so that Christ could suffer and die. But surely Christ could have suffered and died without all that other suffering? Why not let Christ suffer but still stop the holocaust?
Piper is committed to the odd position that God would have been less glorified if Hitler had built hospitals and schools and churches instead of concentration camps. Whatever God Piper may be talking about, that is not the God we meet in Jesus.
dgb448 3 years ago
Good point, but...no, let me explain. Christ's suffering leads to Him having the authority to judge because He has been through everything we go through. Plus it also means He can get us through our suffering. Yes, as harsh as it sounds, God would have been less glorified. God is perfect and His will is to glorify Himself. So, by logic, everything He has done, or allowed to happen is according to His perfect will. 2 Corinthians 12:9-10. Thx for comment.
SudeK88 3 years ago
Thanks for your kind reply...I've been to a few of Piper's conferences and I appreciate his clarity of thought, even if I often disagree.
One of the difficulties with this position is that it seems to deny God's omnipotence. It seems to imply that:
MG) God could not get maximal glory for himself by creating a world with less evil.
But God, being God, is certainly powerful enough and knowledgeable enough to get maximal glory with less evil in the world. Why should we believe otherwise?
dgb448 3 years ago
Well, I've often faced the question...could God have done it any other way than Jesus? I would think that He is certainly powerful enough to, but He chose to do it this way. Now because God is perfect, HIS way is perfect, so, THIS way is perfect. Same logic applies to suffering in the world.
God is omipotent and in suffering He is still in control. Jesus could have taken Himself off the cross, but He decides not to, He decides to do it this way.
SudeK88 3 years ago
So it's perfect that all those died on 9/11, the holocaust was perfect, Stalin should be applauded for carrying out his part of the plan, and it's perfectly okay to molest children because it's all part of the perfect plan? Yeah, Jesus got nailed to some sticks for a few days, so he's now been through more than starving children, AIDS sufferers, and so on? Pretending for a moment that he was real, Jesus did an insignificant amount of suffering.
DarthAtheos666 3 years ago
Firstly, thanks for taking time to write you comments, as with all things, scrutiny is needed. But no, it's not perfectly ok to molest children, it's not perfectly ok to slaughter thousands. But the perfect plan is that despite all of this, God will be glorified. Also, do your research before making accusations of validity. There are more historical documents about Jesus than there are about Caesar (that was an example).
SudeK88 3 years ago
Being nailed to the cross was not the greatest suffering, being separated from the father whilst Jesus was on there was but that's theology, and that would take ages to explain. Hunger, betrayal, whipping, desertion, betrayed by your own people, validity of birth questioned, born in a stable. The suffering is not limited to the cross, read about His whole life and see for yourself. Also, on the cross, he was naked for all to see, that's part of Crucifixion,no towel like in the paintings.
SudeK88 3 years ago
But how can a perfect plan include such great injustices? Why have these innocent children been made to suffer while the likes of Göring can live in comfort?
There is no evidence of jesus ever having existed. You cannot say there is more historical evidence of some fictional jew wandering around than there is of a Roman Emperor. Have you noticed how tons of god-characters all have mostly the same story as Jesus?
DarthAtheos666 3 years ago
Examples please. As for evidence, there are many Jewish and Roman records of Jesus as well as the Christian sources.
Yeah, there are injustices, no one will say otherwise. We all suffer, some more than most but God promises the oppressed that He will take revenge for them. Those who oppress will face the consequences. This life is nothing compared to the eternal. The plan is in action and the outcome will be perfect.
SudeK88 3 years ago
And yeah, I understand your frustrations. I too see the injustice and I question too and I know God is heart broken by all of this. In my own sufferings (not that I am saying I can compare to everyone's suffering), I have always learned so much and I'm sure you'll find the same thing too. God has given us free will so it's up to us to sort out this world before God returns to judge. I will put my hand up and say I have not done enough, but I am trying, and we all need to.
SudeK88 3 years ago
Im so glad you re loaded this video i was about to re load it myself. This messge needs to be heard especially to people on you tube
thanks
RadicalChris21 3 years ago
thanks for loading it up first :)
SudeK88 3 years ago