John Kline at the Kill the Bill rally

[Mutedvox]

funny how "capitalism" is used as something sacred and should never be tampered with. look where capitalism got us. your job went to someone else. "capitalism" took jobs out of the country and someone else benefited, not you. too bad we couldn't out source the CEO's job. that would have put a stop to that, quick. blame the government for NOT interfering to stop the flight of corporations to offshore sites. gluttony got us here. so much for the"golden calf" known as "capitalism".

[micsc50]

Let the stupid morons pass it. It will be the end of the brain dead democRAT party forever.

[whoyouare13]

I am an American and believe me when I say our system SUCKS!!! Our healthcare system sucks,our education system sucks,our economy sucks. People like to say that America is #1,in what? We are #35 in healthcare,China and Idai kick our ass in education. We borrowed soo much money from China to finance an unnecessary war in Iraq that we are now Chna's bitch! So what exactly are we #1 in? For most Americans its easier to live with a lie than to live with the truth. WAKE UP AMERICA!!!

[keithcu2]

If you want good service at a good price, be sure to be the one holding the credit card. If politicians and employers had guaranteed us "free" food 50 years ago, today Democrats would be wailing about the "food crisis" in America, and you'd be on the phone with your food care provider arguing about whether or not a Reuben sandwich with fries was covered under your plan.

[DillonX]

Is Israel a Nazi country?

[LLORT3]

I wish...

[DillonX]

Americans have spoken.

Polls indicate most Americans want the PUBLIC OPTION.

Vote on it now!

[DonPaulPro]

Stop the bill

[pimadave]

KILL THE BILL!

[tulsabball]

Kill the bill!  And help maintain America as a free society!

[tulsabball]

Americans want freedom, not the tyranny of a nanny-state!

[tulsabball]

People having the right to choose:

* their own coverage

* their own treatment

*  to appeal if they're turned down

Under Obamacare:

* they have no choice of coverage

* bureaucrats make their treatment decisions

*there is no appeal if turned down for treatment

Obamacare is not moral at all.

Freedom is the moral choice.

[LLORT3]

I think USA needs to get on the ball, end the handouts to the insurance companies, and enact universal healthcare.

Here in Israel we are proud people and we would never allow insurance companies to exist, let alone charge us for a human right.

USA needs solidarity among its people to get healthcare for everyone, not just the elitists.

[revizcaino]

Who the hell told you we have the human right of healthcare???

What will happen if our country becomes an anarchy? You think you'll have healthcare under that?

There are certain things that are wrong under our current healthcare system and we need Reform, but not a Government takeover. If the government can't take care a cash for clunkers program, how can they succesfully take care of 18% of the economy?

[LLORT3]

A human right is whatever the government says it is.

Like take USA for instance, over there they say owning guns is a human right.

I just think USA government needs to get its priorities straight and declare healthcare is a human right like we Israelis did.

We in Israel would never allow a company to make a profit off of healing us.

We are a superior people in some ways.

[revizcaino]

Owning a gun is a Constitutional right.

Our constituition says that every citizen has the right to Bear Arms.

Nowhere in our Constitiution it says the Healthcare is a right.

[LLORT3]

Your constitution is outdated, it is time to amend it.

[acidcrashguy]

@revizcaino your constitution is dumb.

[revizcaino]

It's funny that most people use the constitution for their own benefit. They say is outdated and old for certain things but at the same time they defend it whenever they agree on certain things.

Plain and simple: We need reform and we expect the Government to oversee in case big companies get greedy and try to steal from the less fortunate, but NO government intervention.

[LLORT3]

The things I support in this bill are the ban on pre-existing conditions and the requirement that my brothers and sisters who cannot afford health insurance must have it provided.

I think USA needs a much stronger safety net during times of recession and unemployment, and I think this is a step in the right direction.

I do have some criticism of the bill, namely its mandated subsidy of insurance companies.

Here in Israel we would never give up our universal healthcare.

[RogerOnTheRight]

The problem with forcing coverage of pre-existing conditions is it subsidizes adverse selection-- in which people buy insurance only when they become ill. Thus, the risk-spreading purpose of insurance is defeated. It is no longer insurance.

This inevitably drives up cost. And you cannot legislate cost out of the picture.

People need to assume responsibility and risk at the same time. Buy insurance because it is smart, not because you are now ill.

[LLORT3]

That's not true. Here in Israel we have coverage of pre-existing conditions and we have less risk, and also lower healthcare costs per capita.

The goal in USA should be to remove the middle man, which I think is unnecessary. Healthcare should be a zero profit game.

[RogerOnTheRight]

No, you don't have less risk. The "risk pool" is polluted by adverse selection, unless you have mandatory coverage and inclusion.

Why should health care be unprofitable? Have you never studied economics at all? Innovation results from profit seeking. In health care, as in all industries, innovation is a good thing, don't you think?

[LLORT3]

That's not true. You are myopic in your thinking and have not thought outside the box. Trust me, I would oppose universal health care if it did not make sense economically and morally. Try to get outside your comfort zone and the rightwing politics and see if you can agree on some things that make sense, like eliminating pre existing condition clauses, and removing profits from healthcare.

I think it is obvious why profiteering should be outlawed in healthcare. It is a right not a product!

[RogerOnTheRight]

First off, there no box. As soon as you imagine a box, you create a box, in which your thoughts are contained. The box is yours, not mine.

Instead, just think.

Economics is a study of human nature. It is our nature to seek more of something when it is free, or subsidized. So, whenever there is a government program of this sort, demand soars and shortages abound.

Shortages come about because supply does not increase sufficiently. And that is because profits have been denied.

[RogerOnTheRight]

llort3, what do you do for a living?

[LLORT3]

I am an artist.

[RogerOnTheRight]

How are you compensated? Do you sell your works, independently? Or are you employed by some company or organization?

[LLORT3]

I sell the pieces myself and with the help of non-profit artisan collectives.

[RogerOnTheRight]

So, you and other artists cooperate to share expenses, and each keep the profits from your own works. Sounds like a very smart business arrangement.

Many medical clinics operate that same way. Doctors share resources, each profiting from their own work. Better doctors make more money.

Do you get sued for malpractice? Bet not.

You believe doctors-- who study and train for many years to get licensed, ought not be paid their value.

Why should art be profitable and not professional medicine?

[LLORT3]

Not sure what your point is here. Art and medicine are two different things.

We do agree that both save lives though.

[RogerOnTheRight]

:-) indeed, both save lives.

But, artists and doctors are people who need to make a living, and need to get paid for what they do. Doctors need to be licensed, and educated in a lengthy, expensive way. So, the need to make more money. Just common sense.

Plus, they have huge capital requirements. It is expensive to set up a practice. And, the have serious liability and regulatory issues to deal with.

If they can't get paid, you won't have health care at all.

[LLORT3]

I don't think my philosophy on healthcare and the point that doctors deserve salaries are mutually exclusive.

I think they can make a good living on half of what they are paid though.

[RogerOnTheRight]

I'm sure doctors everywhere will feel assured by your decision they can cut their salaries in half.

Maybe you can set an example by cutting your pay in half.

[LLORT3]

Ok, what's zero divided by two? :-)

[LLORT3]

Ultimately, health should be a non-profit entity.

[keithcu2]

So how much should doctors get paid? How much should an MRI cost? How much should medicine cost?

You can't answer these questions. Once you realize that, you realize that the gov't should get the heck out of healthcare policy ASAP.

The biggest impediment to better and cheaper healthcare is the existing government: tax, tort and regulatory policies, and the cost of energy, manufacturing, etc. These can all be fixed without a government takeover. We already have Medicaid.

[LLORT3]

I'm not so sure about that. Here in Israel we have found that it is a moral imperative for the government to declare the healthcare is a right, so that the costs don't really matter.

We decided that we will pay any price to secure a healthy citizenry. I think USA puts too much priority on keeping its people safe and too little on keeping them healthy.

[keithcu2]

Of course costs matter. In every "free" system, there is the quality of care that the regular people get, and the care that the leaders and VIPs get. There cannot be a pure system because there isn't enough money to go around. Healthcare is already breaking the bank of the US and I'll bet in Israel as well.

Police and public transport are funded locally. Healthcare is different because people use vastly different amounts so of course rationing happens. Imagine if gasoline were free.

[LLORT3]

I agree that rationing must happen with all limited resources.

I believe with the technology and funds that USA has, though, there is no legitimate excuse for why they have not caught up with us in terms of universal healthcare...

[keithcu2]

So once you have rationing, you no longer have a right.

But more than that, you can't have a good system when someone else is paying the bill. The free market systems which drive innovation and cost cutting don't work.

[LLORT3]

Our system is better than USA's, we cover all people.

Don't even try to tell me USA's current system is better than ours. LOL!

[RogerOnTheRight]

And what is wrong with profit? Is it the idea, something might be too important to be allowed to be profitable? Is that even possible?

[LLORT3]

I just think that private industry should not come in to play in certain necessary services. Healthcare is one of those services.

Another one would be public transportation and police.

[RogerOnTheRight]

Okay, so the fundamental question is, what is wrong with private industry? How is government superior to individuals, in any way?

[LLORT3]

Nothing, I'm for making money...I could always use some more!

[RogerOnTheRight]

Okay, so it's just doctors making money you find objectionable. Or anyone connected to medical care.

It's a bit like fairness and justice. Fair is when I win and you lose, right?

[LLORT3]

Basically. But like I said I have no problem with people who make money. I think the poor could use some more!

[RogerOnTheRight]

Oh, we agree on that. The problem with the poor is, they don't have nearly enough money.

Freedom is the answer. Not "crony capitalism", like Obama and his buddies practice, or the Republicans when they are in power. But real capitalism, where everyone can compete and nobody gets subsidized.

Freedom works.

[LLORT3]

Yeah I agree with this.

Until inequities go addressed by real capitalists though, I think social safety nets must be put in place. Call it socialism or whatever, but I think poor people should be served first and then after that the whining and political debate among boring old white men can commence. :)

[RogerOnTheRight]

Actually, government protects big business. That is the point where socialism becomes fascism. Happens in every society that tends toward socialist ideals.

But, we can observe large businesses being replaced by more efficient competitors over time, despite government interference. Witness the rise of Microsoft over IBM, a classic David vs. Goliath story.

Promote competition not with socialism, but by downsizing government. Consumers and competitive businesses are the best protectors we have.

[LLORT3]

@RogerOnTheRight

I don't really care about competition or other abstract ideals though. That is something Americans need to worry about.

Here I just care about doing my Christian duty. :)

[RogerOnTheRight]

@LLORT3 Abstract idea? health care

provision is an abstraction?

So much for pragmatism.

[LLORT3]

@RogerOnTheRight

I mean I don't really care about ideology one way or the other; I don't care about the intangibility of ideas. I think in this sense we both agree, we just have different ways to approach a tangible good (healthcare for all residents of a country and the way to provide it)...