2 Nephi 8-9 .....I Lehi obtained a promise, .......on this land... and they shall be kept from all other nations, that they may possess this land unto themselves.... and there shall be none to molest them, nor take away the land ..and dwell safely forever.
However DNA evidence does not support the book of mormon claim that the american Indian is of hebrew decent.
2 And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken hard things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center.
evangelical hypocrits stand accused of calling God a liar.
Why does the Mormon church do any research at all? Don't they just tell people to pray to Heavenly Father and he will tell them that the BOM is true? What's happening now, they don't believe the answer they're getting from Heavenly Father? Are they actually going to try to proooove the BOM now? No! That would mean they would actually have to engage, answer direct questions and yes even admit, possibly, that they are incorrect, that the BOM is NOT true and that Joseph Smith was a fraud.
@freestanding1000 Let me get this straight; critics like you go around and ask us for proof and say there isn't any. So now we're providing proof that you as critics ASKED FOR. Now you criticize us because not only are we giving you the proof you requested, you try and insult our testimonies? We already know the book is true. Anti's like you are just upset because we have PROVEN that your years of arguments never have an never will hold water. And THAT my friend is TRUE.
@mattdawg83686 Something that is true is irrefutable. Problem with BOM is that it is entirely refutable, not just partially. Those who believe it do so at the expense of truth, evidence and reason. You claim that the cities, animals, tools, foods, places, etc have all been found yet fail to actually produce this. I've listened to your archaeologists but they don't produce evidence, merely fiction. They force together an ancient civilization with a Mormon mythology. They are not related.
@mattdawg83686 you're right. freestanding has many acocunts, and will have to account to the True God of Israel for his hate, and egotistical megalomania and narcicisism. He knows that he is a hypocrit, and he only thinks if he can attack peoples' testimonies that they might be hurt. He doesn't understand what it means to build ones foundation on a rock.
The book of Mormon doesn't have the same literary voice is the real Bible. It reads like a third grade essay. Two different spirits behind them. One holy, eh... one not so much.
Not only are Bison, Jaguars, Turkeys , python, sloth,armadillo, monkeys , racoon, Tapir, ,Quetzal birds, not mentioned in the BofM. But also Stone buildings pyramids or ziggurats are not mentioned in the book of mormon.
Did these Hebrews take to sailing and find Mayans.
Where are the king solomon type hebrew temple built in mesoamerica ? mormon DNA apology now claims they were only part of an already existing inhabitants. Where does it talk about the Mayans in the B of M ?????
To live the law of Moses? and yet NO Levitical priest existed, per BoM claims of the Lost tribes NOT being of the tribe of Levi. Hence, it was NOT possible to fulfill the Sacrificial commands! No American archaeology shows ANY Hebrew Temple rituals, NONE whatsoever! The Promised land is ONLY Israel. It was called the Promised Land, because God promised to Abraham, that he, God, would give all the land, wherever he set his foot, to his children. America wasn't part of that promise!
There has never been any concrete evidence to back up the mormon bible. no evidence of the tablets, no evidence of the nephite war. no evidence of any historical facts. galations 1:8 and 1:9 will tell you every thing you need to know about mormons.
@kramd1 Have you read the Bible about what it says the promised land is? The Americas fit the descriptions given perfectly. Evidence is all over the place showing the Book of Mormon is true.
@majinish and I repeat there is no evidence presented in this video. Your statement " evidence is all over the place" is close to accurate, I 'd say " mormons are all over the place with what they think is evidence"
@kramd1 My statement isn't close to accurate, it is accurate. People like you do not like it when evidence is shown to you. You ask for it and the evidence is provided and somehow it's not evidence. You wouldn't believe in the stuff if Christ came to the earth Himself and told you it's true.
@majinish You mentioned that evidence is all over the place showing the book of mormon true" some how that constitutes providing evidence. Where is the evidence ?
@majinish And apparently, you don't understand the meaning behind the 'other sheep' because if you did, you'd see that it clearly does not refer to the fictional Nephites and Lamanites.
@moparmonster1965 Yes, it does refer to the real Nephites and Lamanites. But then again you don't believe in Christ or His teachings so that would explain your attitude against the truth.
@majinish Sweetie pie, your 'Nephi' comes from the word Nephilim, meaning a giant of evil. The spawn of fallen angels and human women. You know, kind of like how your god on planet Kolab hangs out making babies. You guys worship[p fallen angels and they laugh at you. Check out angel Moroni. C'mon, drop the 'i' and you have a Moron, which is what you guys are for following this junk.
@MiloArc You really ignorant. Your comment shows you do not know our beliefs. Read Abraham 3. Kolob is a star. We worship Jesus Christ. Nephi comes from someone who was a man of God who did as God commanded. He was part of the remnant that fled Jerusalem that the Old Testament talks about. Grow up. Anyone that has comments like you, I do not consider them Christians. We are THE Christians.
@majinish Thank you for explaining about Kolob, difficult to find info on it, as if it's not generally known for some reason. Instead of me reading Abraham 3 why don't you read Galatians? Maybe Romans chapter 10. Maybe you could straighten out another thing: do believe Jesus and Lucifer are brothers?
BTW-You've been taught 'Nephi' is a name, but you were taught wrong.
@MiloArc I've read Galatians. I'm guessing you're talking about 1:6-9. Of course there's the fact that those verses have nothing to do with the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon teaches the everlasting gospel (Revelation 14:6) of Jesus Christ.
"Instead of me reading Abraham 3" That's what I don't get about critics. You -act- like you know what we believe yet you're afraid to read the scriptures we have.
@majinish The problem is that Mormon worship Joseph Smith's misunderstanding and distortion of the Biblical Jesus, which, of course, makes Mormonism a false gospel.
@moparmonster1965 The Jesus Christ we worship is the one of the Bible which is the same Jesus Christ of the Book of Mormon. You've said what every other anti-Mormon has said. Joseph Smith didn't misunderstand the Bible nor do I. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the only church that teaches the full gospel of Jesus Christ.
What you have is a view of God seen through the lens of Joseph Smith all the distortions that entails. The Mormon jesus is a weak, impotent little product of incest who's nowhere near the real Biblical Jesus. The full gospel of the Mormon jesus is autosoterism, man being his own savior, because his sacrifice wasn't nearly enough to cover our sins.
Thankfully, though, we have the real Jesus to look to instead. And he's not in the BOM.
@majinish That sounds good on paper but in practice, it falls flat every time. The reason these things keep coming up is because your church has never addressed them, instead, letting their flunkies do their dirty work for them.
@moparmonster1965 No, it doesn't fall flat. It seems like you mistake what I said for an opinion. Its more than a personal belief; The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints being Jesus Christ's church is an absolute fact. Nobody avoids anything. You and other anti-Mormons keep making up claims that are untrue and you get worse every time.
@majinish I haven't made up anything at all because LDS texts are the most damning of all.
If Jesus Christ really leads you church, why would he let Ted Bundy join in order to better blend in when he had the blood of at aleast 12 women on his hands? Was he out to lunch at the time?
@MiloArc And remember that the fictional Nephi was a Jew who had a very Greek-sounding name, the ph making an F sound not part of pre-Arabic languages that I can find. I also think that the character of Nephi is Joseph Smith's perfected vision of himself--a strong man, a good son, a dedicated servant of God, the things that Joseph Smith wasn't.
@majinish Clearly, you're not as familiar with the Bible as you should be. The 'other sheep' of John 10:16 has nothing to do with Nephites and Lamanites since neither group ever existed. In fact, when we look further for clarification, the 'other sheep' are actually the Gentiles because Romans 10:19,29 says that He will be made manifest to those not seeking Him.
That rules out the fictional Nephites who knew the name of Jesus long before He was born, doesn't it?
@shelbayehfood It is the will and power of God, that will resurrect us to eternal life, and only those that believe in the divinity and Godship of Jesus Christ, who is the Father of Heaven and earth.
“There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance – that principle is contempt prior to investigation.”
And to make yourself feel better about the major problems facing (or rather, being ignored by) Mormonism, you have to convince yourself of that, to demonize those who oppose the church's view of itself because to give one inch means that the entire house of cards comes tumbling down.
You're welcome to keep your alleged apostolic authority because there's no need for prophets and apostles now anyway. I can dress up my brother and introduce him as my sister, but that doesn't make him a girl, does it?
Can you show me the reason, per the Bible, that your church is supposed to have 15 apostles instead of the just the familair 12? And can you show me why, if your claims are true, that the office of assistant president is indeed Biblical and the reason it was never filled after the murder of Hyrum Smith?
@moparmonster1965 The only reason I can give is the early church DID not (per history) grow, but instead the first and original christians were put to death including the twelve so your point is moot.
Nice dodge but if the church doesn't conform to the Bible, it can't be the same church. That's exactly the standard Mormon apologists and missionaries use to 'prove' that theirs is the right church, as shown by your previous post. They rely on people not knowing the facts about the church to show that it's not really what it claims to be.
If you don't know, just say so; I can have respect for that but BSing your way through a matter you don't know about is intellectually dishonest.
@moparmonster1965 It can be the same organization. Had it the original been allowed to blossom like we have, they would have also seen the need to add 1st and 2nd counselors.
What is really the truth, you will continue your blind quest to debunk us, but you are still not born again, and still not entered the straight gate according to Matt 7, and is you that is BSing.
If it's the same organization, please show me where I can find that same position of assistant president in the Bible, the BOM, or even the DSS. And then do the same for your case for having 15 apostles.
By "born again," you mean not having been baptised a Mormon, and you're right; I haven't and I won't.
At issue here is the notion of the Mormon apostacy, which has no basis in fact or history. You, of course, will define this as the loss the priesthood, but since there's no need for a modern priesthood, the point holds no water.
This, of course, is also refuted by the Mormon belief that John and the three Nephites are still alive because that, along with some research and common sense, would show that no such thing occurred.
How can you be so certain? If the Bible is missing many 'plain and precious things,' and your church hasn't canonized the corrected Joseph Smith Translation, how can you know what parts are aright and what parts aren't?
In short, you can't. What you will do, however, is consider anything you think supports your position as correct and anything that doesn't as incorrect.
That said, let's get to specifics, shall we? Please give me those references and I'll put them into the proper context.
@moparmonster1965 Well adhereing to the promptings of the HOLY GHOST, as one reads and prays, and ponders the words within the book of Mormon, Another TESTAMENT of JESUS CHRIST, it is pretty clear.
And once again, the use of the name Jesus Christ doesn't imply an endorsement. After all, the Jehovah's Witnesses use the pre-mortal name of Jesus (according to LDS theology), don't they? Why, then, aren't they right?
Since I think we'd agree that the real Holy Spirit wouldn't confirm a false gospel, can you explain to me why, when the BOM has been proven to been cribbed from the KJV New Testament, that Joseph Smith made false prophecy after false prophecy, and that the Book of Abraham isn't at all what Smith claimed it to be, he would confirm Mormonism?
@moparmonster1965 I can tell you that Joseph Smith made some claims that were misconstrued as prophecy, and seriously the book of Abraham makes perfect sense with the bible, and the gospel. You cannot even begin to relate to the book of Moses found in the PoGP. How about the profecies that he had that which came to pass? Palestine? Civil War? Word of Wisdom?
The claims of SMith, couched as prophecy or otherwise, have always been failures, much to the church's chagrin.
And, if the BOA was what the church claims it to be, you'd be right in this case, but instead, what we find is that it's almost entirely a word-for-word theft of the KJV Genesis. That's very peculiar since it can only be considered the earliest account of Genesis, yet steals directly from a version not published until 1611.
It's funny that it always comes back to the BOM, but when taken at face value and its claims assumed correct, it's not too hard to see that the BOM doesn't support modern Mormonism at all.
There's no indication that the Mormon god has a body, that he was ever once a man, or that he attained any form of exaltation from his god.
@moparmonster1965 Yes it does. In fact that very point is printed in the Book of Mormon. Please reread the Book of Mormon so there can be better discourse between us.
@Bureyeanne Now that's a circular argument, that you believe something solely because it's in the BOM. It's the same as asking Tom Cruise why Scientology is correct, isn't it?
But on the other hand, the fact that we see the Mormon god in the BOM being an eternal spirit and not an exalted man creates another problem because it doesn't jibe with D&C at all.
And I have read the BOM, finding it slightly less divine in origin than Mein Krapf. But which version would you like me to reread?
@moparmonster1965 Ammon was merely trying to bridge the Gap so the book of Mormon doesn't necesarily teach God is a spirit. Instead He is asking the man -king if he believed in a higher power of sorts, and he said "yay."
@LDS4Life71 Come now, that doesn't make sense. Instead, it makes more sense that when Joseph Smith wrote the BOM, he was trying to connect his Mormon god with the Great Spirit of the Indians, which is exactly the term used several times in the text.
But once again, the BOM, in any place I can find, shows that the Mormon god has a body or was once a man who became a god. It's always static in its claims that the Mormon god is a spirit.
@moparmonster1965 Joseph didn't write it. The "mormon" God as you so eloquently put it, is NOT a spirit, and we don't teach this. Just keep your erroneous twistianity to yourself.
@LDS4Life71 You don't have to teach it because the BOM clearly does, over and over again. Try Mosiah 15:1-5, Alma 18:26-29, 19:25-2, 22:8-11, and 31:15-38. Or better yet, find me an instance where the Mormon god has a physical body and was once a man like us. Somewhere between 1830 and 1843, the Mormon god picked up a body of fleshand bone but no one can explain the reason.
In fact, since the church claims that John the Baptist and the three fictional Nephites never died, it can be easily argued that the church, in LDS terms, never left at all.
But the Bible is clear that the word of God will never leave the earth in 1 Peter 1:23-25 and Isaiah 40:8, which cancels any claim for the Mormon apostacy.
@moparmonster1965 I've read that argument before. It doesn't work for various reasons. Mainly that the John the Baptist left to go to the lost 10 tribes, so he left. The three Nephites may have left even so they don't function as Elder's. In fact Mormon claims to have met them just once and that was about all. The don't govern the church, or work in the church. They are in essence independent of the church.
"When a person passes behind the veil, he can only officiate in the spirit-world; but when he is resurrected, he officiates as a resurrected being, and not as a mortal being. You read in the revelation that Joseph was ordained, as it is written. When he received the Melchizadek priesthood, he had another revelation. Peter, James, and John came to him." (JOD 9:88-89)
The Mormon version of John th Baptist, however, is that he's already a resurrected bing, presuming that he's already been exalted: "Then came John the Baptist who had been beheaded by the king in a moment of weakness...(then) Peter, James, and John now resurrected." (theTeachings of Spencer W. Kimball, President Spencer W. Kimball, p 456)
@Bureyeanne Incorrect; they didn't die and therefore the argument can still be made that the Mormon church never left the earth. Of the Nephites, the BOM says: "...for ye shall never taste of death...And ye shall never endure the pains of death..." (3 Nephi 28:1,4, 6-8)
The "restitution of all things" (Acts 3:20-21) doesn't refer to the fictional apostacy being swept away and the 'one true church' being restored to earth because it never left. There was never a need to restore the Aaronic priesthood whose purpose had already been fulfilled and since there's no evidence that anyone but Jesus Christ was ever a Mechizadek priest, (Heb 6:20) your assumptions are faulty at best.
@moparmonster1965 Jesus ordained the Apostles shortly after they were called. He did this in the Temple. Peter had all the "Keys" to govern the church upon the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. So He had the same authority and Jesus Christ.
@Bureyeanne The problem is here if that said ordaining is necessary, why was Joseph Smith able to circumvent the Melchizadek priesthood by seeing the Mormon god and jesus, separate and distinct, without it? D&C 84:21-22 is very clear about this.
And what you're trying to prove shows nothing about the office of apostle and prophet being eternal and necessary for us.
@moparmonster1965 Wrong little kid. D&C 84:21-22 doesn't say someone has to have the priesthood to see God the Father. "This" refers to the power of godliness which includes the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost was with Joseph Smith. In other words, the Holy Ghost has to be IN the person for them to see God the Father just as Joseph Smith did which is also how he was able to see Christ.
@majinish That's a nice, creative reinterpretation of the text, but incorrect nonetheless.
But to assume you're correct, one has to be a liar, a fraud, and a con man in order to see God? Because, after all, that's what Joseph Smith was even before he started claiming visions and gold plates. This, of course, then, doesn't even begin to take into account of the fact that he'd later add adultery, sexual immorality, and even murder to his list of apparent good works.
@moparmonster1965 No, sorry little girl. Just like other anti-Christs, you misinterpret D&C 84. The power of godliness is the Holy Ghost which is the "it" in D&C 84. Are you talking about having more than one wife? What's with the double standard? Abraham, Moses, and other prophets of old also had more than one wife and I don't see you denouncing those true prophets too. David, an earthly ancestor of Christ, was given 4 women by God.
If Smith couldn't tell the difference between pillars of fire and pillars of air, and couldn't tell if he was talking to one or two people and the angels that may or may not have been present, he's not terribly reliable.
If Smith couldn't tell the difference between pillars of fire and pillars of air, and couldn't tell if he was talking to one or two people and the angels that may or may not have been present, he's not terribly reliable.
@majinish Even if that were true, the problem is that he couldn't tell the same story twice about what he supposedly saw. Each version was different from the last, becoming more and more exaggerated until he finally got to the currently accepted version, some 20 years after it supposedly happened.
The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible and is a record of God's dealings with His chosen people in the New World. The main purpose of the Book of Mormon is "to the convincing of Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD, manifesting himself unto all nations." (Book of Mormon Title Page) It was written by ancient American prophets for our day (Mormon 8:35) and is an American testament of the Lord Jesus Christ.
@moparmonster1965 Well if you wanna include the sealed portion of the plates that Joseph was commanded to not translate, sure. GOD has only revealed that which we can handle, but IS NOT DONE SPEAKING
All your study in proving it wrong is useless because God is all powerful and the church is testament to this power, it will never succumb to the likes of you or people like you EVER. If all the detractors were right, then this church would have fallen a long time ago. The fact that it continues to grow and continues to teach people a better way of life, drawing them closer to their Father in Heaven and to Jesus Christ, tells me it is true. What you say means nothing.
Your conclusions are built of erroneous assumptions; never underestimate the ability of mankind to deceive himself because the heart, above all things, is indeed deceitful (Jeremiah 17:9). We are clearly told, however, to not even take the Bible's word for anything, but to find out its truths for ourselves (1 Thess 5:21).
You fall back to mere numbers, so if that's your basis for being correct, you need to grow a beard because Islam has you beaten in sheer membership hands down.
@moparmonster1965 You misinterpret the bible, and it is YOU that won't be attaining exaltation. We are the LORDs true faith, and you wallow in hate against us.
@dsindc In February 1847 Joseph Smith appeared to Brigham Young in a dream and said: "Tell the people to be humble and faithful, and be sure to keep the Spirit of the Lord, and it will lead them right. Be careful and not turn away the small still voice; it will teach you how to do and where to go; it will yield the fruits of the kingdom.
@dsindc Tell the brethren to keep their hearts open to conviction, so that when the Holy Ghost comes to them, their hearts will be ready to receive it. They can tell the Spirit of the Lord from all other spirits; it will whisper peace and joy to their souls; it will take malice, hatred, strife, and all evil from their hearts; and their whole desire will be to do good, bring forth righteousness and build up the kingdom of God.
@dsindc Tell the brethren if they will follow the Spirit of the Lord they will go right. Be sure to tell the people to keep the Spirit of the Lord; and if they will, they will find themselves just as they were organized by our Father in Heaven before they came into the world. Tell the people to be sure to keep the Spirit of the Lord and follow it, and it will lead them just right."
Whew! I'm glad I won't be attaining Mormon exaltation, to be a god who has no idea what's in his own scriptures, to constantly be contradicting himself, to be the product of incest, and then forced to work through men who are liars, theives, con men, adulters, and killers.
@moparmonster1965 Dead Sea Scrolls prove it. When the last piece was found it shown the Bible was mistranslated because they thought all the pieces were found. However, the teachings in the scrolls that aren't in the Bible are in the Book of Mormon. How could he copy the Bible when the scrolls showed the BoM was correct and the Bible had a mistranslation? Answer, he didn't. People like you don't like the truth or when people have proof. Look up what I told you.
You're building an entire defence without one specific bit of information, but rather more generalities. And if the Bible is incorrect, why did your church canonize it? How can it then contain the 'fulness of the gospel' as the BOM claims in the intro? And why doesn't your god permit you to use the full version of the JST that your god told him to 'retranslate (something he did without benefit of even one ancient text)?'
That's in direct contradiction to the changes we've seen in the BOM, such as 1 Nephi 13:40, where the Mormon jesus and god are cleanly separated, even after we know the text that Smith 'translated' was correct, because he wouldn't have otherwise been able to move forward, would he?
@moparmonster1965 Interesting comments. I have been engaged in a "debate" with LDS4Life71 and noted this video while responding to one if his typically inane comments. Looking at your spelling, I assume you're British or Canadian. Mormons should be taken seriously just as any cult should. But their numbers appear to be flattening in the States, and their growth has been a mixed blessing for them. It has brought them a sort of scrutiny they're not used to. (cont)
No, I'm an American through and through, born and bred RCC from an Irish/Italian/Polish household. That means I can hold my liquor, cook very well, and laugh at myself.
The easiest way to tell a Canadian or Brit by syntax alone is with words like colour because they add the extra U for some reason.
You're not paying attention; since we're not speaking French, the comparison isn't valid. The English and Canadians (all or part, I'm not sure) use the extra U.
@moparmonster1965 I'm not sure if you're addressing me or Bureyeanne. I speak French fluently. The entire English speaking world except the U.S. uses standard British spelling. It is full of French influence. We spell Center, the Brits, 'centre'. Same for the OR ending words. The Brits end them 'our'. Flavour, colour, etc. Just out of curiosity, I googled British vs. American English to make sure I wasn't full of crap - I got it right. There are patterns....
@moparmonster1965 Or to be "Exceptional". And if I hear that term one more time I'm gonna throw up. Yes I agree. Sort of like the metric system. Even there you find the British English with the Norman influence - kilometre v. the American kilometer. Ugh I give up. Why ... we even invent our own religions !!
"There are some well-known spelling differences between British English and American English. Many of these spelling differences result from French influence on English. British English has a tendency to keep the spelling of many words of French origin. Americans try to spell words more closely to the way they sound phonetically and they tend to omit some letters." from British v. American English. Basically it's a mongrel language. Hence the reason we all spell like crap.
One thing to note is that, going from, say, German to English, the problem with letters that use the umluat as in the word schön (nice or beautiful) is that in English, it becomes schoen because there's no equivalent here. The E becomes sort a cheap substitute.
I even hear people of German descent mispronouncing their own names.
I liked how Eddie Izzard put it: "You say 'erbs but we say herbs because there's a fucking H in it."
@moparmonster1965 It's the Norman influence. Though I assume LDS4Life71 considers the Norman Invasion to have originated on Planet Kolob or wherever it is Jesus and his family have set up their household. Jesus was Norman wasn't he? No? Wait... don't tell me..Serbo-Croatian?? On a serious note, I am leaving this conversation with LDS4Life71.. He has nothing to say, much like his 'religion'. I think every religion that has stood the test of time has something to say.. but this crap? Bizarre.
That's okay; I can go toe-to-toe with any apologist at any time because if you show me a good Mormon, I'll show you someone who doesn't know their own history.
When confronted with facts, the apologists will always retreat to arguing generalities or try to emphasize our similarities instead of our differences.
@moparmonster1965 I've informed LDS4life... I completed a degree in Anthropology before going on for a graduate degree in another field- and I can speak the language of physical anthropologists, archaeologists, etc. The problem is that now that mormons and their bizarre cult is being scrutinized, its problems unfold. By the second. I know many who have left. I apologize for LDS4life throwing insults at you. This individual is not real stable.
I've been called all sorts of names by good Mormons and that's fine; it helps them maintain the 'us-versus-them' mentality that the church fosters. It also helps demonize those who make it a habit of pointing out the reasons that the church is wrong. We saw the exact same thing in Nazi Germany so I consider it taking one for the team. I've even been threatened with bodily harm, but I'll let you know that the Smith who protects me isn't Joseph Smith.
We know exactly where the Hill Cumorah, as shown by the church and Zarahemla are both located, yet neither have produced one single artifact that would show any veracity for their position.
Yes, once Mormonism comes under a microscope, you'll get to see how mercurial the apologists really are, bobbing and weaving to avoids facts and reality.
There's no one independent and unbiased institution or organization that confirms any of the church's claims about the historicity of the Bible. All we hear from is FAIR and FARMS, neither of which are exactly impartial, because the church won't take a public stand on anything except the distinctly Christian sounding rhetoric that we hear from each general conference.
So I might walk into the Smithsonian Institute and find numerous examples of "Reformed Egyptian" that were found in Quirigua, Guatemala (identified by Joseph Smith as Zarahemla)? And The Carnegie Institute, I would assume, has recovered all manner of relics from the Hill Cumorah, at which some 2.4 million people met their end? Finally, The Metropolitan Museum of Art must be bursting at the seams with Egyptological confirmations that the papyrus Joseph Smith 'translated' as the Book of Abraham.
Your assumptions are trumped by the fact that none of those small differences fundamentally change Christianity and the Bible's claims, do they? There's no one claiming that differing versions of the oldest versions of Biblical text contradict one another that I know of.
@moparmonster1965 I know our history better than most, I am an american fourth generation mormon and proud of it. I have done all the necesary research to go toe to toe with any Catholic that he's got a leg to stand on.
I have read the Brigham Young Discourses, and the Mormon Doctrine by Bruce R McConkie, and well I 'm afraid your ability to twist scripture mean about as much to me as the fact that your comments, tho well thought out, reflect the same rhetoric put forth and answered.
If that's the case, why don't most Mormons know that Joseph F. Smith plead guilty to being a polygamist in 1906, two years after giving the Second manifesto and 16 years after the original Manifesto, both of which made it clear that the church would no longer be practicing polygamy, even though they clearly continued to do so?
And why don't most Mormon know that Joseph Smith killed two men before being murdered himself? Why don't most Mormons know the reason he was killed in the first place?
I haven't read much of BY's Discourses, but I've read a lot of the JOD. It's also odd how the church works so hard to distance itself from Mormon Doctrine, but then use it constantly to prove their position.
Sadly, no, I haven't twisted anything; your church leaders have challenged us to prove them wrong and I've picked up the gauntlet. Luckily, they left a lot of material to work with.
Okay, that's a good thing, but I think time will tell which one of us knows your history better. I have access to most of the same sources you do, too.
@moparmonster1965 The doctrine of the Trinity, as defined in several post-biblical councils, is widely used as the standard of what one must believe to be a Christian. Latter-day Saints are routinely said to be a cult for not accepting some doctrines from the Nicene Creed, the Athanasian Creed (or click here), and other creeds from the fourth century and beyond (e.g., the Westminster Confession of Faith from 1646, used by Presbyterians).
The problem is that I don't need the Nicene Creed to see that God is Triune in nature. In John 10:30 and 10:38, Jesus said that He and the Father are one (not in purpose, but one) and that He is in the Father as the Father is in Him.
So again, unless they are celestial homosexuals, there's really no way of that being the case unless their realtionship goes well beyond being a mere father and son.
@moparmonster1965 In many of those creeds and related statements of belief, it is taught that there is one God manifest in three persons, all of one substance, without body, parts, or passions. This differs from the LDS view, as we shall see.
As a reminder, the creeds from the Council of Nicaea and the related Council of Chalcedon were theological, philosophical statements developed in the fourth century A.D. amid intense debate about the nature of God.
@moparmonster1965 Influenced heavily by Greek philosophy (Neo-Platonism), these creeds teach the concept of an abstract, transcendent, "consubstantial" unity in trinity, one in three, coequal, existing incomprehensibly without body, parts, or passions, wholly other and outside space and time as we know it.
And the problem is that the BOM echoes the same sentiments that you're arguing against. It wasn't until after Smith wrote the BOM that the concepts that most clearly define Mormonism that he developed the notion of the Mormon god having a body, that the Mormon god and jesus were separate, and that we can become gods like he did.
That's the reason those things aren't in the BOM (but in 1 Nephi14:30, the Mormon jesus and god are seprated by three words added in the 1837 edition, 'the son of.')
@moparmonster1965 We believe in God the Father, in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost, but we believe that they are three distinct Beings who are one in purpose and intent, perfectly united to comprise one Godhead, but not "consubstantial" (made of one essence or substance, not being physically distinct).
@LDS4Life71 NO - "Consubstantial" (just look at the word) implies more than one "substance". Luther brought this term into common parlance in his attempt to define the Eucharist. The Church had emphasized "transubstantiation". Both terms refer to these church's sacramental theology, but that speaks to the central issue of the meaning of Jesus. The core issue is that the sacred, what William James called 'the ultimate reality of the universe' was present in ALL persons of the trinity.
I know what the church holds as fact, no matter what the Bible and BOM say about it. That's the reason that I have stated time and again that the BOM has nothing to do with modern Mormonism.
@moparmonster1965 It seems LDS4Life71 is arguing that the trinity consists of "three distinct Beings", but then contradicts himself by asserting that these "Beings" comprise one "Godhead". If I remember the catechism, didn't the early Church condemn that as heretical? More specifically the Arian heresy? Just curious - I have to say this group is ...er.. interesting. By the way, don't mormons believe Jesus and God have families? Surely not... Magic undies I can deal with.. but this ?? nope.
Keep in mind that it was taught as fact that God and Jesus were both polygamists, the reason for which was to justify what the church leadership (and later, the lay congregation) was doing. Most Mormons don't know it, but it's true. When the church was forced to give up polygamy under the Edmunds-Tucker Act of 1887, those teachings started a long decline into obscurity.
This is the language barrier that I speak of between Christians and Mormons; they use the same terminology as us, but affix much different meanings to them. That's the reason that many level-headed Christians will conclude that they believe the same things that we do after meeting with missionaries.
That sounds right, but I'm not positive; I also don't put any stock in the RCC putting the CCC and its own traditions ahead of the Bible.
The problem here is that the Book of Abraham has been thoroughly discredited because there's no basis to believe, self-deception aside, that it's anything more than Joseph Smith attempting to create something out of nothing. He clearly had no ability to translate ancient languages and there's no indication to any serious Egyptologist that his text is contained in the pieces of papyrus.
@moparmonster1965 We believe that Christ literally resurrected and has a tangible body of both matter and spirit which He allowed his disciples to feel and see, proving that He was not spirit alone but had flesh and bone (Luke 24:36-43).
@moparmonster1965 We believe that the Father looks like the Son and that we are literally created in God's image (Gen. 1:26,27; Gen. 5:1-3). In short, we reject much of the philosophical or metaphysical statements of the Trinitarian creeds.
Nahom is irrefutable proof that the book of Mormon is a made up piece of trash doesn't exist at all no proof of its existence has ever been made In fact every eqyptoligist in the world say that Joe smith was just making up his book of Abraham from a Egyptian funeral document this clown and fraud went so far as to draw in his own figures as well.whats irrefutable is that the Mormon faith is a fraud
Nahom is irrefutable proof that the book of Mormon is a made up piece of trash doesn't exist at all no proof of its existence has ever been made In fact every eqyptoligist in the world say that Joe smith was just making up his book of Abraham from a Egyptian funeral document this clown and fraud went so far as to draw in his own figures as well.whats irrefutable is that the Mormon faith is a fraud
By Joseph Allen.... taken from his book "Exploring the Lands of the Book of Mormon"
And it came to pass, as they understood they cast their eyes up again towards heaven; and behold, they saw a Man descending out of heaven; and he was clothed in a white robe; and he came down and stood in the midst of them.... (3 Nephi 11:8)
What's hilarious here is the fact that Quetzalcoatl is often depicted as a feathered, flying serpent. I can't find that reference in either the Bible or the BOM. Can you help me out with that?
Not only that, but the real Jesus wasn't white at all; he was likely brown and swarthy with curly hair, not the feminine, Anglo version we see in Mormonism and Catholicism.
How do you call JS's revelation from God to be in harmony with Scripture when in his famous sermon he stated that God was once like us, a mere mortal man?! Scripture makes it crystal clear the nature of God and it does not in any way support such a teaching. God has been God from all eternity and He changes not. To say that God is one of many Gods is not only wrong, but it is a LIE. A prophet proclaims God's truths. He does not make up his own.
@figgytwo1 How bout you do some real research than just reading the anti mormon mills and their lies? Joseph Smith was a true prophet, seer, and revelator and seeing all your comments spamming our sites with lies is about rediculous.
@LDS4Life71 Tell you what-why don't you give me ONE shred of evidence right here right now, for anything you believe? The Bible alone is the only source I or anyone else needs to prove the heresies ofJ.S. The anti-mormon mills as you call them must hurt your cause of distortion and outright faslehood of the Mormon deception that has inviltrated our world. But that is not my doing. It is a result of others doing their own research of false teachers.
So, by the Mormon standard, a true prophet of God doesn't have to be correct or follow Biblical standards? He still stands at a 0% accuracy rate and though the Bible condemns it, he married two sets of sisters and at least one mother/daughter pair.
He didn't even bother to keep the WOW and yet he's been elevated to celestial ticket-taker on the other side? Hypocritical at best.
Are you implying that but one false prophecy makes one a false prophet?
And it's funny that the BOM echoes your point about God always being what he is over and over, and yet modern Mormonism teaches that he was once a man and progressed to being an exalted being.
The sad fact is that the BOM has nothing to do with modern Mormonism at all.
@moparmonster1965 Joseph Smith was a true prophet of GOD and was called of God, and was the hand of God in the restoration of the biblical and true christianity with the only true baptism on the earth.
Unfortunately, what you believe is based on the word of a known liars, frauds, scam artists, and killers, couched in a language of the Bible and not supported by it. They 'restored' something that never went anywhere (Isaiah 40:8, which wasn't corrected in the JST so it must be right) and to grant priesthoods that had either already run their course or weren't for mere mortal man so as to allow future men to act as false prophets.
@moparmonster1965 That's hillarious your claim there are no facts, but there are plenty, and all you have to do is real research and not listen to the anti mormon mills.
The book of Mormon is 100% authentic part of ancient meso american history.
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2 Nephi 8-9 .....I Lehi obtained a promise, .......on this land... and they shall be kept from all other nations, that they may possess this land unto themselves.... and there shall be none to molest them, nor take away the land ..and dwell safely forever.
However DNA evidence does not support the book of mormon claim that the american Indian is of hebrew decent.
kramd1 2 months ago
2 And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken hard things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center.
evangelical hypocrits stand accused of calling God a liar.
LDS4Life71 3 months ago
Why does the Mormon church do any research at all? Don't they just tell people to pray to Heavenly Father and he will tell them that the BOM is true? What's happening now, they don't believe the answer they're getting from Heavenly Father? Are they actually going to try to proooove the BOM now? No! That would mean they would actually have to engage, answer direct questions and yes even admit, possibly, that they are incorrect, that the BOM is NOT true and that Joseph Smith was a fraud.
freestanding1000 4 months ago
@freestanding1000 Let me get this straight; critics like you go around and ask us for proof and say there isn't any. So now we're providing proof that you as critics ASKED FOR. Now you criticize us because not only are we giving you the proof you requested, you try and insult our testimonies? We already know the book is true. Anti's like you are just upset because we have PROVEN that your years of arguments never have an never will hold water. And THAT my friend is TRUE.
mattdawg83686 4 months ago
@mattdawg83686 Something that is true is irrefutable. Problem with BOM is that it is entirely refutable, not just partially. Those who believe it do so at the expense of truth, evidence and reason. You claim that the cities, animals, tools, foods, places, etc have all been found yet fail to actually produce this. I've listened to your archaeologists but they don't produce evidence, merely fiction. They force together an ancient civilization with a Mormon mythology. They are not related.
freestanding1000 3 months ago
@mattdawg83686 you're right. freestanding has many acocunts, and will have to account to the True God of Israel for his hate, and egotistical megalomania and narcicisism. He knows that he is a hypocrit, and he only thinks if he can attack peoples' testimonies that they might be hurt. He doesn't understand what it means to build ones foundation on a rock.
LDS4Life71 3 months ago
I do like the music at the beginning, in spite of the actual intent of the video.
moparmonster1965 5 months ago
What a stupid vid.
MiloArc 5 months ago
Whatever moron, or is that Moroni?
MiloArc 8 months ago
The book of Mormon doesn't have the same literary voice is the real Bible. It reads like a third grade essay. Two different spirits behind them. One holy, eh... one not so much.
MiloArc 8 months ago
@MiloArc Other than the parts of the Bible it lifts directly from, of course.
moparmonster1965 5 months ago
Not only are Bison, Jaguars, Turkeys , python, sloth,armadillo, monkeys , racoon, Tapir, ,Quetzal birds, not mentioned in the BofM. But also Stone buildings pyramids or ziggurats are not mentioned in the book of mormon.
Did these Hebrews take to sailing and find Mayans.
Where are the king solomon type hebrew temple built in mesoamerica ? mormon DNA apology now claims they were only part of an already existing inhabitants. Where does it talk about the Mayans in the B of M ?????
kramd1 8 months ago
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kramd1 9 months ago
To live the law of Moses? and yet NO Levitical priest existed, per BoM claims of the Lost tribes NOT being of the tribe of Levi. Hence, it was NOT possible to fulfill the Sacrificial commands! No American archaeology shows ANY Hebrew Temple rituals, NONE whatsoever! The Promised land is ONLY Israel. It was called the Promised Land, because God promised to Abraham, that he, God, would give all the land, wherever he set his foot, to his children. America wasn't part of that promise!
buzzbbird 10 months ago
There has never been any concrete evidence to back up the mormon bible. no evidence of the tablets, no evidence of the nephite war. no evidence of any historical facts. galations 1:8 and 1:9 will tell you every thing you need to know about mormons.
acecab123 10 months ago
ZERO EVIDENCE the title " Book of Mormon Evidence" suggests that there might be some. Not one piece of evidence is presented in this video.
kramd1 1 year ago
@kramd1 Have you read the Bible about what it says the promised land is? The Americas fit the descriptions given perfectly. Evidence is all over the place showing the Book of Mormon is true.
majinish 1 year ago
@majinish and I repeat there is no evidence presented in this video. Your statement " evidence is all over the place" is close to accurate, I 'd say " mormons are all over the place with what they think is evidence"
kramd1 1 year ago
@kramd1 My statement isn't close to accurate, it is accurate. People like you do not like it when evidence is shown to you. You ask for it and the evidence is provided and somehow it's not evidence. You wouldn't believe in the stuff if Christ came to the earth Himself and told you it's true.
majinish 1 year ago
@majinish You mentioned that evidence is all over the place showing the book of mormon true" some how that constitutes providing evidence. Where is the evidence ?
kramd1 1 year ago
@majinish And apparently, you don't understand the meaning behind the 'other sheep' because if you did, you'd see that it clearly does not refer to the fictional Nephites and Lamanites.
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
@moparmonster1965 Yes, it does refer to the real Nephites and Lamanites. But then again you don't believe in Christ or His teachings so that would explain your attitude against the truth.
majinish 1 year ago
@majinish Sweetie pie, your 'Nephi' comes from the word Nephilim, meaning a giant of evil. The spawn of fallen angels and human women. You know, kind of like how your god on planet Kolab hangs out making babies. You guys worship[p fallen angels and they laugh at you. Check out angel Moroni. C'mon, drop the 'i' and you have a Moron, which is what you guys are for following this junk.
MiloArc 10 months ago
Ooops...accidentally shot this at you.
MiloArc 10 months ago
@MiloArc You really ignorant. Your comment shows you do not know our beliefs. Read Abraham 3. Kolob is a star. We worship Jesus Christ. Nephi comes from someone who was a man of God who did as God commanded. He was part of the remnant that fled Jerusalem that the Old Testament talks about. Grow up. Anyone that has comments like you, I do not consider them Christians. We are THE Christians.
majinish 10 months ago
@majinish Thank you for explaining about Kolob, difficult to find info on it, as if it's not generally known for some reason. Instead of me reading Abraham 3 why don't you read Galatians? Maybe Romans chapter 10. Maybe you could straighten out another thing: do believe Jesus and Lucifer are brothers?
BTW-You've been taught 'Nephi' is a name, but you were taught wrong.
MiloArc 8 months ago
@MiloArc I've read Galatians. I'm guessing you're talking about 1:6-9. Of course there's the fact that those verses have nothing to do with the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon teaches the everlasting gospel (Revelation 14:6) of Jesus Christ.
"Instead of me reading Abraham 3" That's what I don't get about critics. You -act- like you know what we believe yet you're afraid to read the scriptures we have.
majinish 8 months ago
@MiloArc @"Maybe you could straighten out another thing: do believe Jesus and Lucifer are brothers"
To be honest that comes from knowing the Bible and having some common sense.
"BTW-You've been taught 'Nephi' is a name, but you were taught wrong"
The only one wrong here is you. Nephi is a name of ancient origin
majinish 8 months ago
@majinish The problem is that Mormon worship Joseph Smith's misunderstanding and distortion of the Biblical Jesus, which, of course, makes Mormonism a false gospel.
moparmonster1965 5 months ago
@moparmonster1965 The Jesus Christ we worship is the one of the Bible which is the same Jesus Christ of the Book of Mormon. You've said what every other anti-Mormon has said. Joseph Smith didn't misunderstand the Bible nor do I. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the only church that teaches the full gospel of Jesus Christ.
majinish 5 months ago
What you have is a view of God seen through the lens of Joseph Smith all the distortions that entails. The Mormon jesus is a weak, impotent little product of incest who's nowhere near the real Biblical Jesus. The full gospel of the Mormon jesus is autosoterism, man being his own savior, because his sacrifice wasn't nearly enough to cover our sins.
Thankfully, though, we have the real Jesus to look to instead. And he's not in the BOM.
moparmonster1965 5 months ago
@majinish That sounds good on paper but in practice, it falls flat every time. The reason these things keep coming up is because your church has never addressed them, instead, letting their flunkies do their dirty work for them.
moparmonster1965 5 months ago
@moparmonster1965 No, it doesn't fall flat. It seems like you mistake what I said for an opinion. Its more than a personal belief; The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints being Jesus Christ's church is an absolute fact. Nobody avoids anything. You and other anti-Mormons keep making up claims that are untrue and you get worse every time.
majinish 5 months ago
@majinish I haven't made up anything at all because LDS texts are the most damning of all.
If Jesus Christ really leads you church, why would he let Ted Bundy join in order to better blend in when he had the blood of at aleast 12 women on his hands? Was he out to lunch at the time?
moparmonster1965 5 months ago
@majinish "It is because I say it is!"
moparmonster1965 5 months ago
@MiloArc And remember that the fictional Nephi was a Jew who had a very Greek-sounding name, the ph making an F sound not part of pre-Arabic languages that I can find. I also think that the character of Nephi is Joseph Smith's perfected vision of himself--a strong man, a good son, a dedicated servant of God, the things that Joseph Smith wasn't.
moparmonster1965 5 months ago
@majinish Clearly, you're not as familiar with the Bible as you should be. The 'other sheep' of John 10:16 has nothing to do with Nephites and Lamanites since neither group ever existed. In fact, when we look further for clarification, the 'other sheep' are actually the Gentiles because Romans 10:19,29 says that He will be made manifest to those not seeking Him.
That rules out the fictional Nephites who knew the name of Jesus long before He was born, doesn't it?
moparmonster1965 5 months ago
@shelbayehfood It is the will and power of God, that will resurrect us to eternal life, and only those that believe in the divinity and Godship of Jesus Christ, who is the Father of Heaven and earth.
LDS4Life71 1 year ago
“There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance – that principle is contempt prior to investigation.”
-Herbert Spencer
FAIRLDSdotORG
for the truth
LDS4Life71 1 year ago
And to make yourself feel better about the major problems facing (or rather, being ignored by) Mormonism, you have to convince yourself of that, to demonize those who oppose the church's view of itself because to give one inch means that the entire house of cards comes tumbling down.
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
@moparmonster1965 The gates of hell shall not prevail against it. For we are the ones with the holy apostolic authority.
LDS4Life71 1 year ago
You're welcome to keep your alleged apostolic authority because there's no need for prophets and apostles now anyway. I can dress up my brother and introduce him as my sister, but that doesn't make him a girl, does it?
Silly.
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
@moparmonster1965 The restoration of the church once founded is completely biblical,therefore you silly analogy is worthless.
There are at least 12 spots within the bible, renouncing Evangelicals faulty thinking that there is no such Church organization that Christ founded.
The biblical definition of born again differs from what the mainstream of christianity are teaching.
LDS4Life71 1 year ago
Can you show me the reason, per the Bible, that your church is supposed to have 15 apostles instead of the just the familair 12? And can you show me why, if your claims are true, that the office of assistant president is indeed Biblical and the reason it was never filled after the murder of Hyrum Smith?
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
@moparmonster1965 The only reason I can give is the early church DID not (per history) grow, but instead the first and original christians were put to death including the twelve so your point is moot.
LDS4Life71 1 year ago
Nice dodge but if the church doesn't conform to the Bible, it can't be the same church. That's exactly the standard Mormon apologists and missionaries use to 'prove' that theirs is the right church, as shown by your previous post. They rely on people not knowing the facts about the church to show that it's not really what it claims to be.
If you don't know, just say so; I can have respect for that but BSing your way through a matter you don't know about is intellectually dishonest.
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
@moparmonster1965 It can be the same organization. Had it the original been allowed to blossom like we have, they would have also seen the need to add 1st and 2nd counselors.
What is really the truth, you will continue your blind quest to debunk us, but you are still not born again, and still not entered the straight gate according to Matt 7, and is you that is BSing.
LDS4Life71 1 year ago
If it's the same organization, please show me where I can find that same position of assistant president in the Bible, the BOM, or even the DSS. And then do the same for your case for having 15 apostles.
By "born again," you mean not having been baptised a Mormon, and you're right; I haven't and I won't.
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
At issue here is the notion of the Mormon apostacy, which has no basis in fact or history. You, of course, will define this as the loss the priesthood, but since there's no need for a modern priesthood, the point holds no water.
This, of course, is also refuted by the Mormon belief that John and the three Nephites are still alive because that, along with some research and common sense, would show that no such thing occurred.
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
@moparmonster1965 You are so full of kaka. The bible is full of references indicating the restoration of the ONE true faith.
LDS4Life71 1 year ago
How can you be so certain? If the Bible is missing many 'plain and precious things,' and your church hasn't canonized the corrected Joseph Smith Translation, how can you know what parts are aright and what parts aren't?
In short, you can't. What you will do, however, is consider anything you think supports your position as correct and anything that doesn't as incorrect.
That said, let's get to specifics, shall we? Please give me those references and I'll put them into the proper context.
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
@moparmonster1965 Well adhereing to the promptings of the HOLY GHOST, as one reads and prays, and ponders the words within the book of Mormon, Another TESTAMENT of JESUS CHRIST, it is pretty clear.
LDS4Life71 1 year ago
And once again, the use of the name Jesus Christ doesn't imply an endorsement. After all, the Jehovah's Witnesses use the pre-mortal name of Jesus (according to LDS theology), don't they? Why, then, aren't they right?
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
Since I think we'd agree that the real Holy Spirit wouldn't confirm a false gospel, can you explain to me why, when the BOM has been proven to been cribbed from the KJV New Testament, that Joseph Smith made false prophecy after false prophecy, and that the Book of Abraham isn't at all what Smith claimed it to be, he would confirm Mormonism?
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
@moparmonster1965 I can tell you that Joseph Smith made some claims that were misconstrued as prophecy, and seriously the book of Abraham makes perfect sense with the bible, and the gospel. You cannot even begin to relate to the book of Moses found in the PoGP. How about the profecies that he had that which came to pass? Palestine? Civil War? Word of Wisdom?
Do you smoke cigarettes?
LDS4Life71 1 year ago
That doesn't even begin to make sense and we both know it.
Yes, let's discuss those prophecies and I'll put them in the proper perspectives for you and our readers.
Got ahead, pick one to start with, state your case as to why it's correct, cite the specific chapter and verse, please.
No, smoking is foul and after trying it once, I never bothered with it again.
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
The claims of SMith, couched as prophecy or otherwise, have always been failures, much to the church's chagrin.
And, if the BOA was what the church claims it to be, you'd be right in this case, but instead, what we find is that it's almost entirely a word-for-word theft of the KJV Genesis. That's very peculiar since it can only be considered the earliest account of Genesis, yet steals directly from a version not published until 1611.
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
It's funny that it always comes back to the BOM, but when taken at face value and its claims assumed correct, it's not too hard to see that the BOM doesn't support modern Mormonism at all.
There's no indication that the Mormon god has a body, that he was ever once a man, or that he attained any form of exaltation from his god.
Why can't someone clear this up for us?
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
@moparmonster1965 Yes it does. In fact that very point is printed in the Book of Mormon. Please reread the Book of Mormon so there can be better discourse between us.
Bureyeanne 1 year ago
@Bureyeanne Now that's a circular argument, that you believe something solely because it's in the BOM. It's the same as asking Tom Cruise why Scientology is correct, isn't it?
But on the other hand, the fact that we see the Mormon god in the BOM being an eternal spirit and not an exalted man creates another problem because it doesn't jibe with D&C at all.
And I have read the BOM, finding it slightly less divine in origin than Mein Krapf. But which version would you like me to reread?
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
@moparmonster1965 Ammon was merely trying to bridge the Gap so the book of Mormon doesn't necesarily teach God is a spirit. Instead He is asking the man -king if he believed in a higher power of sorts, and he said "yay."
LDS4Life71 1 year ago
@LDS4Life71 Come now, that doesn't make sense. Instead, it makes more sense that when Joseph Smith wrote the BOM, he was trying to connect his Mormon god with the Great Spirit of the Indians, which is exactly the term used several times in the text.
But once again, the BOM, in any place I can find, shows that the Mormon god has a body or was once a man who became a god. It's always static in its claims that the Mormon god is a spirit.
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
@moparmonster1965 Joseph didn't write it. The "mormon" God as you so eloquently put it, is NOT a spirit, and we don't teach this. Just keep your erroneous twistianity to yourself.
And don't COME ON me!
LDS4Life71 1 year ago
And since the BOM is full of corrected errors and issues, it sure seems like the work of someone with a third grade education to me.
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
@LDS4Life71 You don't have to teach it because the BOM clearly does, over and over again. Try Mosiah 15:1-5, Alma 18:26-29, 19:25-2, 22:8-11, and 31:15-38. Or better yet, find me an instance where the Mormon god has a physical body and was once a man like us. Somewhere between 1830 and 1843, the Mormon god picked up a body of fleshand bone but no one can explain the reason.
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
In fact, since the church claims that John the Baptist and the three fictional Nephites never died, it can be easily argued that the church, in LDS terms, never left at all.
But the Bible is clear that the word of God will never leave the earth in 1 Peter 1:23-25 and Isaiah 40:8, which cancels any claim for the Mormon apostacy.
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
@moparmonster1965 I've read that argument before. It doesn't work for various reasons. Mainly that the John the Baptist left to go to the lost 10 tribes, so he left. The three Nephites may have left even so they don't function as Elder's. In fact Mormon claims to have met them just once and that was about all. The don't govern the church, or work in the church. They are in essence independent of the church.
Bureyeanne 1 year ago
"When a person passes behind the veil, he can only officiate in the spirit-world; but when he is resurrected, he officiates as a resurrected being, and not as a mortal being. You read in the revelation that Joseph was ordained, as it is written. When he received the Melchizadek priesthood, he had another revelation. Peter, James, and John came to him." (JOD 9:88-89)
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
The Mormon version of John th Baptist, however, is that he's already a resurrected bing, presuming that he's already been exalted: "Then came John the Baptist who had been beheaded by the king in a moment of weakness...(then) Peter, James, and John now resurrected." (theTeachings of Spencer W. Kimball, President Spencer W. Kimball, p 456)
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
@Bureyeanne Incorrect; they didn't die and therefore the argument can still be made that the Mormon church never left the earth. Of the Nephites, the BOM says: "...for ye shall never taste of death...And ye shall never endure the pains of death..." (3 Nephi 28:1,4, 6-8)
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
The "restitution of all things" (Acts 3:20-21) doesn't refer to the fictional apostacy being swept away and the 'one true church' being restored to earth because it never left. There was never a need to restore the Aaronic priesthood whose purpose had already been fulfilled and since there's no evidence that anyone but Jesus Christ was ever a Mechizadek priest, (Heb 6:20) your assumptions are faulty at best.
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
@moparmonster1965 Acts 3 is referring to the restoration, and not the apostacy.
2 Thesalonians 2:1-3 talks about the apostacy, and Acts 20:29 talks about the apostacy, and Revelations 14:6-7 talks about the restoration.
There are plenty of other references. You are still denying the truth. Your infant baptism is incorrect, and the pope has no authority from Peter.
LDS4Life71 1 year ago
@LDS4Life71 I agree. In fact, that's what I already said.
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
@moparmonster1965 Jesus ordained the Apostles shortly after they were called. He did this in the Temple. Peter had all the "Keys" to govern the church upon the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. So He had the same authority and Jesus Christ.
Bureyeanne 1 year ago
@Bureyeanne The problem is here if that said ordaining is necessary, why was Joseph Smith able to circumvent the Melchizadek priesthood by seeing the Mormon god and jesus, separate and distinct, without it? D&C 84:21-22 is very clear about this.
And what you're trying to prove shows nothing about the office of apostle and prophet being eternal and necessary for us.
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
@moparmonster1965 Wrong little kid. D&C 84:21-22 doesn't say someone has to have the priesthood to see God the Father. "This" refers to the power of godliness which includes the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost was with Joseph Smith. In other words, the Holy Ghost has to be IN the person for them to see God the Father just as Joseph Smith did which is also how he was able to see Christ.
majinish 1 year ago
@majinish That's a nice, creative reinterpretation of the text, but incorrect nonetheless.
But to assume you're correct, one has to be a liar, a fraud, and a con man in order to see God? Because, after all, that's what Joseph Smith was even before he started claiming visions and gold plates. This, of course, then, doesn't even begin to take into account of the fact that he'd later add adultery, sexual immorality, and even murder to his list of apparent good works.
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
@moparmonster1965 No, sorry little girl. Just like other anti-Christs, you misinterpret D&C 84. The power of godliness is the Holy Ghost which is the "it" in D&C 84. Are you talking about having more than one wife? What's with the double standard? Abraham, Moses, and other prophets of old also had more than one wife and I don't see you denouncing those true prophets too. David, an earthly ancestor of Christ, was given 4 women by God.
majinish 1 year ago
If Smith couldn't tell the difference between pillars of fire and pillars of air, and couldn't tell if he was talking to one or two people and the angels that may or may not have been present, he's not terribly reliable.
Where I come from, that's called lying.
moparmonster1965 5 months ago
If Smith couldn't tell the difference between pillars of fire and pillars of air, and couldn't tell if he was talking to one or two people and the angels that may or may not have been present, he's not terribly reliable.
Where I come from, that's called lying.
moparmonster1965 5 months ago
@majinish Even if that were true, the problem is that he couldn't tell the same story twice about what he supposedly saw. Each version was different from the last, becoming more and more exaggerated until he finally got to the currently accepted version, some 20 years after it supposedly happened.
moparmonster1965 5 months ago
The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible and is a record of God's dealings with His chosen people in the New World. The main purpose of the Book of Mormon is "to the convincing of Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD, manifesting himself unto all nations." (Book of Mormon Title Page) It was written by ancient American prophets for our day (Mormon 8:35) and is an American testament of the Lord Jesus Christ.
LDS4Life71 1 year ago
So the BOM is also missing many 'plain and precious things', too?
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
@moparmonster1965 Well if you wanna include the sealed portion of the plates that Joseph was commanded to not translate, sure. GOD has only revealed that which we can handle, but IS NOT DONE SPEAKING
LDS4Life71 1 year ago
All your study in proving it wrong is useless because God is all powerful and the church is testament to this power, it will never succumb to the likes of you or people like you EVER. If all the detractors were right, then this church would have fallen a long time ago. The fact that it continues to grow and continues to teach people a better way of life, drawing them closer to their Father in Heaven and to Jesus Christ, tells me it is true. What you say means nothing.
novarone72 1 year ago
Your conclusions are built of erroneous assumptions; never underestimate the ability of mankind to deceive himself because the heart, above all things, is indeed deceitful (Jeremiah 17:9). We are clearly told, however, to not even take the Bible's word for anything, but to find out its truths for ourselves (1 Thess 5:21).
You fall back to mere numbers, so if that's your basis for being correct, you need to grow a beard because Islam has you beaten in sheer membership hands down.
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
@moparmonster1965 You misinterpret the bible, and it is YOU that won't be attaining exaltation. We are the LORDs true faith, and you wallow in hate against us.
LDS4Life71 1 year ago 4
@LDS4Life71 So, here you are again. And now you sit in judgment. You need to seek out therapy.
dsindc 1 year ago
@dsindc You need to be tied to a bed and shock therapy administered, because you are the disturbed one.
LDS4Life71 1 year ago
@dsindc In February 1847 Joseph Smith appeared to Brigham Young in a dream and said: "Tell the people to be humble and faithful, and be sure to keep the Spirit of the Lord, and it will lead them right. Be careful and not turn away the small still voice; it will teach you how to do and where to go; it will yield the fruits of the kingdom.
LDS4Life71 1 year ago
@dsindc Tell the brethren to keep their hearts open to conviction, so that when the Holy Ghost comes to them, their hearts will be ready to receive it. They can tell the Spirit of the Lord from all other spirits; it will whisper peace and joy to their souls; it will take malice, hatred, strife, and all evil from their hearts; and their whole desire will be to do good, bring forth righteousness and build up the kingdom of God.
LDS4Life71 1 year ago
@dsindc Tell the brethren if they will follow the Spirit of the Lord they will go right. Be sure to tell the people to keep the Spirit of the Lord; and if they will, they will find themselves just as they were organized by our Father in Heaven before they came into the world. Tell the people to be sure to keep the Spirit of the Lord and follow it, and it will lead them just right."
FAIRLDSdotORG
for the truth
LDS4Life71 1 year ago
Whew! I'm glad I won't be attaining Mormon exaltation, to be a god who has no idea what's in his own scriptures, to constantly be contradicting himself, to be the product of incest, and then forced to work through men who are liars, theives, con men, adulters, and killers.
That's a load off my mind, thank you.
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
@moparmonster1965 Dead Sea Scrolls prove it. When the last piece was found it shown the Bible was mistranslated because they thought all the pieces were found. However, the teachings in the scrolls that aren't in the Bible are in the Book of Mormon. How could he copy the Bible when the scrolls showed the BoM was correct and the Bible had a mistranslation? Answer, he didn't. People like you don't like the truth or when people have proof. Look up what I told you.
FAIRLDSdotORG
for the truth
LDS4Life71 1 year ago
Why would I consult FAIR, an organization dedicated to proving its own basis for belief correct? That's not exactly objective, is it?
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
You're building an entire defence without one specific bit of information, but rather more generalities. And if the Bible is incorrect, why did your church canonize it? How can it then contain the 'fulness of the gospel' as the BOM claims in the intro? And why doesn't your god permit you to use the full version of the JST that your god told him to 'retranslate (something he did without benefit of even one ancient text)?'
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
That's in direct contradiction to the changes we've seen in the BOM, such as 1 Nephi 13:40, where the Mormon jesus and god are cleanly separated, even after we know the text that Smith 'translated' was correct, because he wouldn't have otherwise been able to move forward, would he?
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
@moparmonster1965 Interesting comments. I have been engaged in a "debate" with LDS4Life71 and noted this video while responding to one if his typically inane comments. Looking at your spelling, I assume you're British or Canadian. Mormons should be taken seriously just as any cult should. But their numbers appear to be flattening in the States, and their growth has been a mixed blessing for them. It has brought them a sort of scrutiny they're not used to. (cont)
dsindc 1 year ago
No, I'm an American through and through, born and bred RCC from an Irish/Italian/Polish household. That means I can hold my liquor, cook very well, and laugh at myself.
The easiest way to tell a Canadian or Brit by syntax alone is with words like colour because they add the extra U for some reason.
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
@moparmonster1965 The u is the french way of spelling the word but is permissible in English.
Bureyeanne 1 year ago
You're not paying attention; since we're not speaking French, the comparison isn't valid. The English and Canadians (all or part, I'm not sure) use the extra U.
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
@moparmonster1965 I'm not sure if you're addressing me or Bureyeanne. I speak French fluently. The entire English speaking world except the U.S. uses standard British spelling. It is full of French influence. We spell Center, the Brits, 'centre'. Same for the OR ending words. The Brits end them 'our'. Flavour, colour, etc. Just out of curiosity, I googled British vs. American English to make sure I wasn't full of crap - I got it right. There are patterns....
dsindc 1 year ago
We Americans deliberately spell things differently from the English just to be different (and perhaps difficult). I have no idea why.
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
@moparmonster1965 Or to be "Exceptional". And if I hear that term one more time I'm gonna throw up. Yes I agree. Sort of like the metric system. Even there you find the British English with the Norman influence - kilometre v. the American kilometer. Ugh I give up. Why ... we even invent our own religions !!
dsindc 1 year ago
@moparmonster1965
"There are some well-known spelling differences between British English and American English. Many of these spelling differences result from French influence on English. British English has a tendency to keep the spelling of many words of French origin. Americans try to spell words more closely to the way they sound phonetically and they tend to omit some letters." from British v. American English. Basically it's a mongrel language. Hence the reason we all spell like crap.
dsindc 1 year ago
One thing to note is that, going from, say, German to English, the problem with letters that use the umluat as in the word schön (nice or beautiful) is that in English, it becomes schoen because there's no equivalent here. The E becomes sort a cheap substitute.
I even hear people of German descent mispronouncing their own names.
I liked how Eddie Izzard put it: "You say 'erbs but we say herbs because there's a fucking H in it."
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
@moparmonster1965 It's the Norman influence. Though I assume LDS4Life71 considers the Norman Invasion to have originated on Planet Kolob or wherever it is Jesus and his family have set up their household. Jesus was Norman wasn't he? No? Wait... don't tell me..Serbo-Croatian?? On a serious note, I am leaving this conversation with LDS4Life71.. He has nothing to say, much like his 'religion'. I think every religion that has stood the test of time has something to say.. but this crap? Bizarre.
dsindc 1 year ago
That's okay; I can go toe-to-toe with any apologist at any time because if you show me a good Mormon, I'll show you someone who doesn't know their own history.
When confronted with facts, the apologists will always retreat to arguing generalities or try to emphasize our similarities instead of our differences.
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
@moparmonster1965 I've informed LDS4life... I completed a degree in Anthropology before going on for a graduate degree in another field- and I can speak the language of physical anthropologists, archaeologists, etc. The problem is that now that mormons and their bizarre cult is being scrutinized, its problems unfold. By the second. I know many who have left. I apologize for LDS4life throwing insults at you. This individual is not real stable.
dsindc 1 year ago
I've been called all sorts of names by good Mormons and that's fine; it helps them maintain the 'us-versus-them' mentality that the church fosters. It also helps demonize those who make it a habit of pointing out the reasons that the church is wrong. We saw the exact same thing in Nazi Germany so I consider it taking one for the team. I've even been threatened with bodily harm, but I'll let you know that the Smith who protects me isn't Joseph Smith.
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
We know exactly where the Hill Cumorah, as shown by the church and Zarahemla are both located, yet neither have produced one single artifact that would show any veracity for their position.
Yes, once Mormonism comes under a microscope, you'll get to see how mercurial the apologists really are, bobbing and weaving to avoids facts and reality.
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
@moparmonster1965 And there isn't a single artifact of an Egyptian occupation either. One lasted a few days, the other lasted over 400 years.
Bureyeanne 1 year ago
Thanks for the support.
There's no one independent and unbiased institution or organization that confirms any of the church's claims about the historicity of the Bible. All we hear from is FAIR and FARMS, neither of which are exactly impartial, because the church won't take a public stand on anything except the distinctly Christian sounding rhetoric that we hear from each general conference.
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
@moparmonster1965 That is simply not true. There is a significant amount of research on the textual changes in the Bible from non-LDS sources.
Bureyeanne 1 year ago
Funny, I've never heard any of those things claimed by any LDS source.
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
So I might walk into the Smithsonian Institute and find numerous examples of "Reformed Egyptian" that were found in Quirigua, Guatemala (identified by Joseph Smith as Zarahemla)? And The Carnegie Institute, I would assume, has recovered all manner of relics from the Hill Cumorah, at which some 2.4 million people met their end? Finally, The Metropolitan Museum of Art must be bursting at the seams with Egyptological confirmations that the papyrus Joseph Smith 'translated' as the Book of Abraham.
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
Your assumptions are trumped by the fact that none of those small differences fundamentally change Christianity and the Bible's claims, do they? There's no one claiming that differing versions of the oldest versions of Biblical text contradict one another that I know of.
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
So what, then, was the major fundamental change? And what did Smith write in the BOM that's in the DSS?
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
@moparmonster1965 I know our history better than most, I am an american fourth generation mormon and proud of it. I have done all the necesary research to go toe to toe with any Catholic that he's got a leg to stand on.
I have read the Brigham Young Discourses, and the Mormon Doctrine by Bruce R McConkie, and well I 'm afraid your ability to twist scripture mean about as much to me as the fact that your comments, tho well thought out, reflect the same rhetoric put forth and answered.
LDS4Life71 1 year ago
If that's the case, why don't most Mormons know that Joseph F. Smith plead guilty to being a polygamist in 1906, two years after giving the Second manifesto and 16 years after the original Manifesto, both of which made it clear that the church would no longer be practicing polygamy, even though they clearly continued to do so?
And why don't most Mormon know that Joseph Smith killed two men before being murdered himself? Why don't most Mormons know the reason he was killed in the first place?
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
I haven't read much of BY's Discourses, but I've read a lot of the JOD. It's also odd how the church works so hard to distance itself from Mormon Doctrine, but then use it constantly to prove their position.
Sadly, no, I haven't twisted anything; your church leaders have challenged us to prove them wrong and I've picked up the gauntlet. Luckily, they left a lot of material to work with.
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
Okay, that's a good thing, but I think time will tell which one of us knows your history better. I have access to most of the same sources you do, too.
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
@moparmonster1965 DSS?
LDS4Life71 1 year ago
Dead Sea Scrolls, sorry, I should've made that clear.
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
@moparmonster1965 The doctrine of the Trinity, as defined in several post-biblical councils, is widely used as the standard of what one must believe to be a Christian. Latter-day Saints are routinely said to be a cult for not accepting some doctrines from the Nicene Creed, the Athanasian Creed (or click here), and other creeds from the fourth century and beyond (e.g., the Westminster Confession of Faith from 1646, used by Presbyterians).
CONT
LDS4Life71 1 year ago
The problem is that I don't need the Nicene Creed to see that God is Triune in nature. In John 10:30 and 10:38, Jesus said that He and the Father are one (not in purpose, but one) and that He is in the Father as the Father is in Him.
So again, unless they are celestial homosexuals, there's really no way of that being the case unless their realtionship goes well beyond being a mere father and son.
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
@moparmonster1965 In many of those creeds and related statements of belief, it is taught that there is one God manifest in three persons, all of one substance, without body, parts, or passions. This differs from the LDS view, as we shall see.
As a reminder, the creeds from the Council of Nicaea and the related Council of Chalcedon were theological, philosophical statements developed in the fourth century A.D. amid intense debate about the nature of God.
CONT
LDS4Life71 1 year ago
@moparmonster1965 Influenced heavily by Greek philosophy (Neo-Platonism), these creeds teach the concept of an abstract, transcendent, "consubstantial" unity in trinity, one in three, coequal, existing incomprehensibly without body, parts, or passions, wholly other and outside space and time as we know it.
LDS4Life71 1 year ago
And the problem is that the BOM echoes the same sentiments that you're arguing against. It wasn't until after Smith wrote the BOM that the concepts that most clearly define Mormonism that he developed the notion of the Mormon god having a body, that the Mormon god and jesus were separate, and that we can become gods like he did.
That's the reason those things aren't in the BOM (but in 1 Nephi14:30, the Mormon jesus and god are seprated by three words added in the 1837 edition, 'the son of.')
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
@moparmonster1965 We believe in God the Father, in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost, but we believe that they are three distinct Beings who are one in purpose and intent, perfectly united to comprise one Godhead, but not "consubstantial" (made of one essence or substance, not being physically distinct).
CONT
LDS4Life71 1 year ago
@LDS4Life71 NO - "Consubstantial" (just look at the word) implies more than one "substance". Luther brought this term into common parlance in his attempt to define the Eucharist. The Church had emphasized "transubstantiation". Both terms refer to these church's sacramental theology, but that speaks to the central issue of the meaning of Jesus. The core issue is that the sacred, what William James called 'the ultimate reality of the universe' was present in ALL persons of the trinity.
dsindc 1 year ago
I know what the church holds as fact, no matter what the Bible and BOM say about it. That's the reason that I have stated time and again that the BOM has nothing to do with modern Mormonism.
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
@moparmonster1965 It seems LDS4Life71 is arguing that the trinity consists of "three distinct Beings", but then contradicts himself by asserting that these "Beings" comprise one "Godhead". If I remember the catechism, didn't the early Church condemn that as heretical? More specifically the Arian heresy? Just curious - I have to say this group is ...er.. interesting. By the way, don't mormons believe Jesus and God have families? Surely not... Magic undies I can deal with.. but this ?? nope.
dsindc 1 year ago
Keep in mind that it was taught as fact that God and Jesus were both polygamists, the reason for which was to justify what the church leadership (and later, the lay congregation) was doing. Most Mormons don't know it, but it's true. When the church was forced to give up polygamy under the Edmunds-Tucker Act of 1887, those teachings started a long decline into obscurity.
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
This is the language barrier that I speak of between Christians and Mormons; they use the same terminology as us, but affix much different meanings to them. That's the reason that many level-headed Christians will conclude that they believe the same things that we do after meeting with missionaries.
That sounds right, but I'm not positive; I also don't put any stock in the RCC putting the CCC and its own traditions ahead of the Bible.
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
@moparmonster1965 Well I believe the book of Enoch found reflects what is said in the book of Abraham.
Is one example
LDS4Life71 1 year ago
What, specifically, are you referring to?
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
Do you mean Enos, I assume? The entire basis there is remission of sins, which runs contrary to modern Mormonism, man being his own savior.
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
@moparmonster1965 What? You drawing those conclusions are only based on your silly shill rhetoric. When will you ever learn?
LDS4Life71 1 year ago
No, LOL, thanks for the laugh, but in reality, those things aren't in the BOM at all.
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
The problem here is that the Book of Abraham has been thoroughly discredited because there's no basis to believe, self-deception aside, that it's anything more than Joseph Smith attempting to create something out of nothing. He clearly had no ability to translate ancient languages and there's no indication to any serious Egyptologist that his text is contained in the pieces of papyrus.
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
@moparmonster1965 Alma wrote "lands of Jerusalem."
This is also a term used by the peoples that wrote the dead sea scrolls.
LDS4Life71 1 year ago
That's it? That's what you're betting your eternal soul on?
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
@moparmonster1965 We believe that Christ literally resurrected and has a tangible body of both matter and spirit which He allowed his disciples to feel and see, proving that He was not spirit alone but had flesh and bone (Luke 24:36-43).
LDS4Life71 1 year ago
@moparmonster1965 No i meant the book of Enoch, not Enos. Enos recognized the true God of Israel, and not man made like the RCC.
LDS4Life71 1 year ago
@moparmonster1965 We believe that the Father looks like the Son and that we are literally created in God's image (Gen. 1:26,27; Gen. 5:1-3). In short, we reject much of the philosophical or metaphysical statements of the Trinitarian creeds.
Isaiah 29:13
LDS4Life71 1 year ago
@moparmonster1965 "having itching ears, and as if seared by an Iron."
LDS4Life71 1 year ago
Umm, nope, I have no such problems when people talk trash about me and what I do.
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Nahom is irrefutable proof that the book of Mormon is a made up piece of trash doesn't exist at all no proof of its existence has ever been made In fact every eqyptoligist in the world say that Joe smith was just making up his book of Abraham from a Egyptian funeral document this clown and fraud went so far as to draw in his own figures as well.whats irrefutable is that the Mormon faith is a fraud
martlut 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Nahom is irrefutable proof that the book of Mormon is a made up piece of trash doesn't exist at all no proof of its existence has ever been made In fact every eqyptoligist in the world say that Joe smith was just making up his book of Abraham from a Egyptian funeral document this clown and fraud went so far as to draw in his own figures as well.whats irrefutable is that the Mormon faith is a fraud
martlut 1 year ago
The White God Quetzalcoatl
By Joseph Allen.... taken from his book "Exploring the Lands of the Book of Mormon"
And it came to pass, as they understood they cast their eyes up again towards heaven; and behold, they saw a Man descending out of heaven; and he was clothed in a white robe; and he came down and stood in the midst of them.... (3 Nephi 11:8)
LDS4Life71 1 year ago
What's hilarious here is the fact that Quetzalcoatl is often depicted as a feathered, flying serpent. I can't find that reference in either the Bible or the BOM. Can you help me out with that?
Not only that, but the real Jesus wasn't white at all; he was likely brown and swarthy with curly hair, not the feminine, Anglo version we see in Mormonism and Catholicism.
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
How do you call JS's revelation from God to be in harmony with Scripture when in his famous sermon he stated that God was once like us, a mere mortal man?! Scripture makes it crystal clear the nature of God and it does not in any way support such a teaching. God has been God from all eternity and He changes not. To say that God is one of many Gods is not only wrong, but it is a LIE. A prophet proclaims God's truths. He does not make up his own.
figgytwo1 1 year ago
@figgytwo1 How bout you do some real research than just reading the anti mormon mills and their lies? Joseph Smith was a true prophet, seer, and revelator and seeing all your comments spamming our sites with lies is about rediculous.
LDS4Life71 1 year ago
@LDS4Life71 Tell you what-why don't you give me ONE shred of evidence right here right now, for anything you believe? The Bible alone is the only source I or anyone else needs to prove the heresies ofJ.S. The anti-mormon mills as you call them must hurt your cause of distortion and outright faslehood of the Mormon deception that has inviltrated our world. But that is not my doing. It is a result of others doing their own research of false teachers.
figgytwo1 1 year ago
So, by the Mormon standard, a true prophet of God doesn't have to be correct or follow Biblical standards? He still stands at a 0% accuracy rate and though the Bible condemns it, he married two sets of sisters and at least one mother/daughter pair.
He didn't even bother to keep the WOW and yet he's been elevated to celestial ticket-taker on the other side? Hypocritical at best.
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
Are you implying that but one false prophecy makes one a false prophet?
And it's funny that the BOM echoes your point about God always being what he is over and over, and yet modern Mormonism teaches that he was once a man and progressed to being an exalted being.
The sad fact is that the BOM has nothing to do with modern Mormonism at all.
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
@moparmonster1965 Joseph Smith was a true prophet of GOD and was called of God, and was the hand of God in the restoration of the biblical and true christianity with the only true baptism on the earth.
LDS4Life71 1 year ago
Unfortunately, what you believe is based on the word of a known liars, frauds, scam artists, and killers, couched in a language of the Bible and not supported by it. They 'restored' something that never went anywhere (Isaiah 40:8, which wasn't corrected in the JST so it must be right) and to grant priesthoods that had either already run their course or weren't for mere mortal man so as to allow future men to act as false prophets.
That, indeed, defines you.
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
@moparmonster1965 You will never be able to define us.
The true church of Jesus Christ was restored to the earth, endowed with power and glory.
The book of Mormon is a100% authentic part of ancient meso american history.
LDS4Life71 1 year ago
I've already asked you for your evidence and was left wanting because you hold opinions that aren't based on facts, but rather feelings.
moparmonster1965 1 year ago
@moparmonster1965 That's hillarious your claim there are no facts, but there are plenty, and all you have to do is real research and not listen to the anti mormon mills.
The book of Mormon is 100% authentic part of ancient meso american history.
LDS4Life71 1 year ago