Thieves in the Temple New Standards Michael Brecker

[quinsanity]

hey guys, Prince made money selling sex in the 80/90s, called pussy control. Its not taking anything away from Prince.Hell James Brown was selling sex, but he is still a bad mofo! We just have to remember that Herbie plays for the art not necessarily mainstream entertainment. Prince is no punk, but he doesn't set at home shredding and transcribing solos from Monk, Parker, Trane, or Coy. Prince listened to JAMES BROWN AND HENDRIX. both are mofos in their own right. Prince cant chop like herbie

[69thewatchersees]

Gospel and The Blues are parents of Jazz music and any other American form of music. The jazz player is the educated,intelectual son of the old Blues man rocking on the porch with his guitar.. It's his roots and deep down he knows it. Right... Mr. Marcellus?

[69thewatchersees]

Herbie went to school and studied music and Prince did not. But, if he had of imagine what might have been. Having said all of that Prince, if he wanted to could play any thing he would try. That is genius. He can hear it and either thru other musicians or himself can duplicate it. He is the greatest commercialy successful musician of our time. Jazz or other wise. Ask someone who knows...like Herbie.

[quinsanity]

@69thewatchersees Prince still studied. Hell Parker didn't go to school but he studied. You dig? Prince started his career wanting to do james brown and hendrix. So that's what he did. He wasn't trying to learn jazz, maybe the surface stuff. He can't chop solos like Herbie. But Prince is still a fine musician in his own right

[ppppdmt]

i disagree that he was "selling sex", yes his sex songs got alot of attention, but at the same time he wrote plenty of meaningful songs, eg "sign o the times" which touched on aids, poverty, war etc. I agree that he isnt a shredder and he doesnt play very complicated music like jazz, but i dont think you have to play complicated music to be good on an instrument.

[jcroshi]

I don't believe it is improvising play as I love Brecker's solo.And I was't able to see this concert,but that is not problem you know, I'd say thanks to youtube and BenRoden burg who's sharing it.

[pebblefrog196]

That distortion is so ill.

[pebblefrog196]

There is no such person as Prince. You must all be referring to "The Artist Formerly Known As The Artist Formerly Known As Prince" :)

[artistarj]

its ridiculous how some people like to hate Prince. Ok, you may not like him or his music. But saying he is a bad musician or songwriter is IGNORANCE coming from someone who probably never listened to more than 2 songs of him. The GREAT musicians admire him and that´s what really matters.

[usetheforce207]

Im pretty sure i mentioned Stevie Wonder, and i would add Elton John and the Beatles if you wanna talk about Pop and rock. 'Influence' doesnt go very far with those genres considering the music itself never changes just the style. If you knew anything about music beyond rock or pop you wouldnt be arguing. Prince has done nothing in the way of music. Maybe culture because of the way he dressed and presented himself, which was my whole argument in the FIRST PLACE. But as a musician he's nothing.

[dixxjamm]

@usetheforce207 And you can downgrade Prince all you want to a pop artist, but at the end of the day, it's people like Prince and John Mayer, who despite some of their pop creations and their sometimes obnoxious superstar attitude, will be the ones mainly responsible for keeping good quality music (any type) alive...not many people are into jazz (I am, incidentally),so it's up to the big pop stars to stop the current trend of techno and computer music.Your type of snobbery may lead to just that.

[usetheforce207]

@dixxjamm i promis im not a snob i just feel that people like herbie hancock shouldnt be compared to prince. I dont think prince is a significant musician but he is a musician none the least. I assure I would rather everyone listen to prince than the other 'computer' crap that you mentioned. I feel the exact same way. In my views, as long as there are still musical instruments involved its right by me. I have respect for anybody who strives and learns the music, jazz or not.

[sawittisunga]

@usetheforce207 Stevie disagrees with you too. I'm sometimes guilty of musical snobbery myself. It's futile though, and I think you're probably aware of this. Is Miles Davis a better musician than Prince ? How would one quantify such a thing ?

[CowboyandThePenguin]

alphie 20 you are an idiot! Prince is his real name and he his a gifted musician, Miles Davis took Prince under his wing back in the 80's. Educate yourself before making stupid and uninformed statements!

[Ollie100002]

Is that John Scofield on guitar too? 

[pebblefrog196]

I don't think Prince should be compared to Hancock. It's all music and they were both amazing cats. They knew how to tear sh*t up :)

[davidfreshyyy]

michael brecker was great!!!

[usetheforce207]

This is a prince original and a Hancock cover. Im sure Hancock was able to improve it becuase I doubt very seriously that Prince would be able to think up a D7 #9 chord.  Hancock > Prince

[dixxjamm]

@usetheforce207 That's because you obviously haven't listened to Prince much...in addition of him using much more complicated chords then a D7#9 in his most pop songs,he also has very jazzy recordings...in case you don't know, he recorded and played with Miles Davis,among others...and a "complicated" chord by itself is not complicated,it's the whole harmony that makes it "complicated".

[morten4u]

@usetheforce

Well, I was at one of the New Standards Concerts in at Copenhagen Jazz Festival back in the days. Thieves in the Temple was played there, and it was the song where the band strayed least from the original. It was basically the same chords as the original tune.

And I do agree with Dixjamm, you can't have listened much to Prince if you think he does not now a 7#9 chord. Miles Davis has rated him as "A motherf**cking genius", he does not rate Hancock that high in his bio.

[usetheforce207]

do you honestly think that Prince is a more experienced or knowledgable musician then Herbie Hancock? Im not saying that he's a horrible musician, but come on. Herbie can play circles around 'Prince'

[jazzman1988]

@morten4u Prince is an amazing artist, and I agree with @pebblefrog196 , they shouldn't be compared. That old story about Miles Davis said this, Miles Davis said that, is getting too used. Miles Davis said Oscar Peterson couldn't swing (!). Again, Miles Davis is one of my favorite artists. By the way, in his bio, Miles said Hancock was the next step after Monk and Powell (Miles Davis Quotes 2-0 Me)

[audible67]

@usetheforce207 terribly misinformed you are.

[SanctumZero]

@audible67 Too much Star Wars you have watched? ;D

[alphie20]

@usetheforce207 You sir, obviously know nothing about Prince. The man knew how to play something like 11 instruments by the time he was 17. He's a gifted musician who just happens to write popular tunes. You just look down on them because they are popular. Shame on you.

[usetheforce207]

@alphie20 I dont look down on him because he's a pop musician. I look down on him because he wears a blouse, make-up, and is ridiculous as a performer. No self respecting MUSICIAN would do such things for attention. And no I am more than sure that Herbie Hancock, Michael Brecker, John Scofield and many others can play circles around Prince. Real musicians use their real names. Don't joke around, Prince isnt on the same reality that Hancock is playing at. Come on, Seriously

[Brianjonestown]

@usetheforce207

Get your head out of your ass. Judging a musician by his clothing?? And you think Prince sucks because he wears makeup?? Have you ever watched a motion picture? Actors wear makeup. No, really, kid -- in fact, most onstage and onscreen performers wear makeup. Sorry if I'm hurting your baby feelings on this one, but hey, there's no Santa Claus either. Hancock and Prince are two powerful and enduring artist/composers who admire each other's work. So try pretending you understand.

[usetheforce207]

@Brianjonestown you are a true moron if you think being a musician has anything to do with wearing make-up. Actors wear makeup because what they're doing depends heavily on appearance. Whatever this 'kid' babbling you are doing is complete nonsense. I am both an actor and a jazz musician, i know the in's and outs of both. Any REAL musician who knows anything past basic music theory can tell you Prince is NOT a knowledgeable musician. He sings and dancing around and is a goofy looking POP STAR.

[Brianjonestown]

@usetheforce207

Okay now, naive mean-spirited little one...Musicians and actors are both performers. Ever heard of musicals? Makeup happens there too, kiddo. And hey, what's a REAL musician? Please give a succinct definition, because clearly you have a lot riding on this. And evidently Miles Davis and Herbie don't make the grade because they have both gone on record praising Prince's genius musicianship. So let's hear your definition.

[usetheforce207]

@Brianjonestown I have been in numerous musical myself and know a lot about it. Singing in a musical doesnt make you a musician. And again WEARING MAKE-UP HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING A MUSICIAN. I have no idea why you insist on talking about that, its irrelevant. And why do you keep calling me kiddo, im not a child you moron. You obviously know nothing about music. I have listened to Prince's playing and seen his compositions, its simple blues playing. Basic chords and harmony. he is nothing

[Brianjonestown]

@usetheforce207

Still haven't answered my question, but you sure are good at flipping your argument when you're losing. It's YOU who connected makeup with music -- you said you looked down on Prince because of it. Bottom line is that you dislike Prince because he's androgynous and that intimidates you, so you're trying to create musical reasons to dismiss him as an artist. Give it up, kiddo.

[usetheforce207]

@Brianjonestown it's funny because you obviously dont know anything about playing music. Im not argueing, Prince's music is EXTREMELY basic and simple. Just like all rock musicians. He plays blues scales and his writing uses very simple harmony. The reason i brought up make-up is because it shows he doesnt take MUSIC seriously, he's up there to be a singer and performer, to turn heads by dressing weird. His music is easy and Herbie can play circles around him. Don't pretent to understand music.

[Brianjonestown]

@usetheforce207

Your pathetic "blues scale" argument is patently false, as he deploys different modal patterns from record to record. Prince has been far ahead of the "rock musician" curve since the early 80s, and even his detractors admit he's the most influential recording artist of the past three decades. So makeup means people aren't serious, huh? Look kid, you can't spell, you can't read and you can't think. But by all means keep digging a hole.

[usetheforce207]

@Brianjonestown Good job saying the most vague statement about somebody's musical facility possible. "different modal patterns". Wow you really do know nothing about music. Can't spell? Cant read? Running out of an argument much? He is by FAR no where near the most influential recording artist in the past 30 years. Try the Brecker Brothers, Stevie Wonder, or Herbie Hancock. . You are a moron. Just shut up. Prince isnt a bad at all, but he is not exceptional either. He's just a pop performer.

[Brianjonestown]

@usetheforce207

Wow...Prince intimidates you so much that you're name-calling, throwing down the ad hominem attacks and running away from the truth as far as possible. Yeah, the Breckers' influence on pop, dance, soul, funk, R&B and metal is just beyond huge, isn't it?? LOL...dig away.

[dixxjamm]

@usetheforce207 "Prince is just a pop performer" ?You're kidding, right?He may have had his pop moments,obnoxious even for hardcore Prince fans,but take his best moments in terms of musical complexity and jazzy attitude and he's right there with any jazz musician.The problem with Prince is that he always wanted to be a huge superstar, but if you examine his whole work, it's almost impossible to understand the amount of talent he has,not to mention his versatility,which is probably unparalleled.

[sawittisunga]

@usetheforce207 Miles Davis, Herbie's former band leader and mentor, seemed to disagree with you. Miles recorded and played live with Prince on several occasions. While I'd hole-heartedly agree with you that Prince plies his trade, as it were, in the world of pop, and that pop is generally a simpler, less complex form of music than some, but by no means all, I don't see that this in any way makes him a lesser musician. Artistcally he simply exists and creates in a different field to some.

[ppppdmt]

@usetheforce207 he is not a goofy looking pop star. Prince isnt knowledgeable musician? He plays guitar, bass, piano and a variety of precussion instruments and you dont think he is just a "pop star"? BTW, if he wasnt influential, his work would not have been covered by Herbie, George Clinton or Marcus Miller.

[usetheforce207]

@ppppdmt it doesnt matter how many instruments you play. Music is in your head, an instrument is just a medium through which you access music. It's better to be great on one instrument that to be ok or even good on a bunch of different instruments. Prince is very technichally gifted guitar player and i would rather listen to him play than 90% of the music out there, but at the end of the day im sorry to say-he is a blues player. I dont know how many times i have to say that.

[ppppdmt]

@usetheforce207 i understand that jazz and classical music are the most complicated forms of music there are. That doesnt mean that jazz musicians are superior to blues/rock musicians, yes they know more theory and their music is more difficult to play, but ultimately people have different music tastes. There isnt any such thing as "better" or "worse". Yes Prince is not a jazz musician (although he does use some jazz chords) but he is a heck of a musician in several other genres.

[usetheforce207]

@ppppdmt well that is the first sensible thing ive seen people post on this argument. And ill have to say that i mostly agree. Taste does come in to play a lot in deciding whether or not you like somebody as a musician. I can honestly say that i like Prince as a player. The only reason i said i consider Hancock and brecker to be better is because just like you said, what they play is much more difficult and the blues/rock players couldnt play it even if they wanted to. thats all

[quinsanity]

@ppppdmt guys.... it is UNFAIR to compare blues/rock players to jazz. WHY? Because Prince is a very talented musican. He has a file of songs he has already written 1000 songs. But at the same time Prince knows he is not the same caliber of musician as Herbie. I'm sorry . Prince is in the popular music realm, though he has more skill then the average rocker and blues cat. He is popular music. Herbie is strictly playing for the art. Therefore when it comes towards playing for the Art.

[quinsanity]

@ppppdmt He plays popular music...... in the 80s/90s Prince was selling sex more so then music. He is super talented and wrote many songs still. BUT he does't have shredding chops like herbie. He can turn out lyrics all day, but he can't hang with these guys. At the same time prince is rich. so yes Prince is a ICON in popular music, much like michael jackson and the beatles.

[usetheforce207]

@usetheforce207 The whole reason this 'argument' was started was because Prince was compared to Hancock and other jazz greats. Obviously herbie like the tune and im sure he respects Prince, as do i. but to compare the intuitive and theory knowledge of players like Hancock and Brecker to Prince's BLUES playing is absolutely ridiculous. This stupid argument has made so many left turns by other peolple that my original point was lost. I just this you guys are putting the wrong person on a pedestal.

[SaxMan7776518]

holy shit where did scofield come from?

[chlojob]

P.p.s I wish I had met Michael instead of Randy.

[chlojob]

P.S Thieves in the Temple is on Prince's Greatest hits. Hits albums are normally the "hits" aka generic "you'd you know this artist because of this song" album. Why would anyone say this song is a copywrite voilation? Unless you can actually hear the chord changes kids, you wouldn't know any better.

[chlojob]

Yeah this is a song by Prince right? I was looking for him but found Brecker. Im not complaining.

[artistarj]

Prince IS the AUTHOR

"Thieves in the temple" is from his album "Graffiti Bridge" (1990) and Herbie Hancock did a version of it on his album The New Standard (1996), along with jazz versions of songs by Peter Gabriel, Sade, Beatles, Paul Simon, etc. All songwriters are credited there.

And Herbie said he loves Prince´s grooves in a documentary called ´The Art of Musicology´.

I know what I am talking about. I have the albums. If you doubt, do some research. It´s not hard.

[GraemeBerke]

Prince does not allow his music on Youtube.

He can not be the author.

I have all OF his albums. Late 70's and on.

I have learned that Prince doesn't care enough to let us enjoy our support.

It was hard to be a Prince fan in the 90's.

Hard to buy 'LoveSexy' in cowtown.

There-fore this can have nothing to do with Prince.

[taildragger51]

How come Prince's version is here on "youtube" then? If you look you'll find it .

[artistarj]

and Michael Brecker really ruled.

[artistarj]

Great team playing Prince´s song.

[mythbuster1991]

HERBIE HANCOCK YOU RETARD,god why does everyone keep saying that

[Saxyman14]

Because it's a prince tune... just because they played it doesn't mean they wrote it.

[saxfaisan]

Just: Hipercool.-

[helmutkruger86]

uwielbiam tego goscia, melodyjnie jak zawsze i oczywiscie zajebiaszczo rytmicznie!!

[pietrobass74]

brecker are the best musician!

[lou2cv]

Et dire que j'ai loupé tous les concerts de ce géant du sax ténor parce que je ne conaissais pas encore le jazz.... maintenant c'est un des plus grands regrets !

[lou2cv]

I think the effect he put on his sax is called a "flanger", I use the same on my trombone and the result is quite comparable...

[jsweenie13]

i just bought a harmonizer that does all those effects. now i just gotta figure out how to use it tastefully

[lou2cv]

And to practice to play as well as Mike Brecker :p (just kidding)

[honkymonky78]

stoff guys

[lou2cv]

I love the way Michael B is not in a hurry to bring on his solo... he slowly enter the thing, but god... that's pretty damn burnin' !

[lou2cv]

Wow I love Brecker's sax sound with this effect, so nice !

[kamborman]

Somebody has/knows the changes for this? There's a vid here of a big band playing the song, but i'm afraid i need some ear training lessons... :(

[quinsanity]

gmi, cmi, and i believe d7

[quinsanity]

DMI7

[lou2cv]

In C it is in G minor

[quinsanity]

i was correcting the last chord.. Gm. Cm, and Dm7

[lou2cv]

I think it is Gm7, Cm7 and D7#9 (a V-I in Gm !)

[SaxMan7776518]

You're all wrong. It is Gm7, Cm7, D7sus to D7#9.

[lou2cv]

So where is the mistake ?

[quinsanity]

That's great Saxman that you figured out the changes. If I would have spent more time listening to this song I would have figured it out also.. I listen to it briefly ect... I mean, I guess what I'm saying is I sure hope your not one of those youtube musician's that thinks he is right all the time ;-) and has to show the world he is ALLWAYS right. if you know what I'm saying. And yes Scofield played with this band (this lineup) quite often.

[quinsanity]

Actually I think that third chord is just open a 4th voicing. Which functions more has a Dmi7 then a D7 check it out tell me what you think. 4th chord D7#9.

[lou2cv]

You're right, that's what I hear too

[pedro1690]

Jack and Mike are killin' on this. I still can't believe Mike is gone. You got anymore of this video?

Cheers

pedro

[humbug165]

Brecker's solo is UNBELIEVABLE !!! It's amazing to hear him literally devastating this simple song with his energy and imagination.

Could you post more tunes from that concert ?

[takauya]

yeah Jack on The Drums!

[ManniMatrix]

Jack DeJohnette on the drums?

[smisakso]

Anybody else not able to hear Sco? Great clip, especially with the high G from Brecker!

[27max]

Ciao Mike

[tonyfreejazz20]

Another wonderful clip from Mike. Awesome. He will be sadly missed.

[mrgone78]

michael brecker is the man.