No one knows the levels of discrimination than a dark skinned, overweight, black lesbian, so the next time you start to judge someone just think about the bigotry they face everyday.
@MsAgnosticatheist Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I think lesbians of color face staggering levels of prejudice and discrimination, compared to gay men.
obviously they are very different experiences because they are different situations. however, the reason these situations are compared to each other so frequently is because they are both civil rights movements.
Something a lot of people do not know is that gay people held prominent roles in the Black civil rights movement, and that some of the strongest allies gay people have in Washington, DC are Black legislators who were part of the civil rights movement.
I would not say fall asleep to. When you post a vid I look forward to listening to what you have to say. If nothing else you grab my attention even if I dont always agree with you.
Thank you for your kind comments. :-) I've been reading a little about the Black civil rights movement and am starting to understand why some of the leaders of the movement support gay rights. The march on Washington, DC, where Martin Luther King, Jr. gave his famous speech was organized by a gay man. Gay people were there for the Black community, and some of the Black civil rights leaders want to be there for the gay community.
I do say Gary that you have an un-paralleled way to speak, present and persuade people. It would not surprise me if you were a very successful businessman or motivational speaker. The same kinds of people that I used buy a ticket to in school and then go home early. Now I kind of wish I had stayed to hear them speak.
Thank you for the very kind words. I wish I was a successful businessman or a motivational speaker. I've spoken many times in churches. People have posted that I sound like somebody on PBS. :-D I suspect that could mean I have a voice to fall asleep to. :-> Thanks for watching and posting.
discrimination is discrimination. whether it is a matter of race,gender,sexual orientation,religion. for any of the above groups TO OK DISCRIMINATION towards one another is digustingly hypocritical and vile
Very good point. Discrimination and hate crimes are equal opportunity employers. They can strike any and almost all people. Discrimination and hate is always wrong. Thanks for watching and commenting.
There are lots of black gay women (maybe 1,500,000 in the USA alone) who should be able to tell us from first hand experience how these three forms of discrimination compare. I have heard several highlight the similarities.
You are right that historically both black men and gay men have been falsely stigmatized as sexual predators - and women as temptresses - especially by religious organizations. All minorities, even the left handed, have been seen by some as a moral threat to society.
Excellent points. Interesting post. Some theories on how people assume a gay identity are borrowed from theories about how people assume a Black identity. There is some thought that the way people assume a gay identity varies significantly between White and Black gays.
I am reading the book "Why are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria." The authors feel Black identity starts to become more solidified during adolescence and is often triggered by discrimination. There are theories about how Black youth start to identify as Black. Those have been adapted by theorists and applied to gay people. Two books I am reading now that are about new queer youth attack that approach. They point out differences in identification patterns.
Some Black and Hispanic men do not identify as gay or bisexual. They may have sex with other men, but never choose to use the words gay or bisexual. AIDS/HIV awareness campaigns have had to use the term "men who have sex with men" to reach some Black and Hispanic men. I am not sure if lesbians come to identify as lesbian in the same way gay men do. I have not been able to read that much on the topic, but know some authors feel there are racial differences as to how people identify as gay.
50 years ago most white 'men who had sex with men' would not identify as gay or bisexual. I think this phenomenon ultimately has nothing to do with race, it reflects the level of homophobia and internalized homophobia in their own immediate community. It applies as much to white men in rural areas or southern States or in lower income groups as it does to men in racial minority communities.
I wish a few of us could have a coffee discussion. :-D That is a very good point. Homophobia levels keep people in the closet and keep them from identifying as gay. In ancient Roman and Greek cultures same-gender sexual behavior seemed to be well accepted, but I am not sure there was a sense of a different identity. A unique and separate queer identity might be a bit foreign to some cultures, although I think we see it spreading due to the influence of western cultures.
OK, I see. I think the process you describe for black youth facing discrimination applies to queer youth too. They first identify themselves as queer, then sit together with the other queer kids in the cafeteria and classroom then later identify as members of the LBTQ community. In both cases, when there there is no longer much discrimination, this identification process begins to disappear. [See Ritch Savin-Williams' somewhat optimistic book 'The New Gay Teenager'].
The New Gay Teenager is the book I was going to refer to and you beat me to that. :-D I fear the book is very optimistic. Objections to the common steps of sexual identity development can be found on pages 74 and on. She questions if lesbian identity is the same as gay male identity development. When in college, I had a few friends who later came out as gay. I was not sure they were gay then or that I was gay then. Interesting how that worked.
maitriparamita, I agree with you that there are many who have first hand experience of three forms of discrimination for example. But we must always remember that each experience is individual may NOT be able to translate into a general experience of discrimination for another.
There can be problems trying to take the specific examples and adapt or apply them to populations. Sometimes we do that and it seems to work. Other times we do that and it does not work very well.
The discussion is interesting. I know I need to do a lot more reading about queer theory and identity development research to say much. I feel very much in over my head. :-)
Firstly, I think you forgot to mention that there are individuals that are both black and gay (or other ethnic minorities that are gay). So, there are people who know what it is like to be gay and an ethnic minority!
Secondly, I agree with you that there should not be any competition to see which group has suffered more historical persecution. This is not at all helpful!
However, I find in the media, they often discuss ethnic minority leaders/groups discriminating against lgbtq leaders/groups but they never discuss lgbtq leaders/groups discriminating against ethnic minorities.
I recall a personal incident at the U of T when a Muslim (female) friend of mine was assumed to be homophobic by members of the lgbtq association before they even talked to her. They just assumed because she was Muslim, she must discriminate against gays.
So, my point is that, yes, ethnic minority groups must work together with lgbtq association but also, lgbtq associations must not assume that ethnic minorities are necessarily homophobic. Both practices are equally unproductive and derail our aim of respecting human equality!
I've seen internal discrimination and division between all the minorities - including gay people who are biphobic, transphobic, misogynist or racist. We'll get nowhere until we stick together.
Very good point. Unfortunately, members of visible minorities who are also gay and lesbian often themselves rejected within their racial group as well as in the GLBT community. The level of discrimination they face is staggering.
No one knows the levels of discrimination than a dark skinned, overweight, black lesbian, so the next time you start to judge someone just think about the bigotry they face everyday.
MsAgnosticatheist 7 months ago
@MsAgnosticatheist Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I think lesbians of color face staggering levels of prejudice and discrimination, compared to gay men.
garysdeskcom 7 months ago
obviously they are very different experiences because they are different situations. however, the reason these situations are compared to each other so frequently is because they are both civil rights movements.
snowingshelby 2 years ago
Something a lot of people do not know is that gay people held prominent roles in the Black civil rights movement, and that some of the strongest allies gay people have in Washington, DC are Black legislators who were part of the civil rights movement.
Thanks for watching and commenting.
garysdeskcom 2 years ago
I would not say fall asleep to. When you post a vid I look forward to listening to what you have to say. If nothing else you grab my attention even if I dont always agree with you.
countsoss 2 years ago
Thank you for your kind comments. :-) I've been reading a little about the Black civil rights movement and am starting to understand why some of the leaders of the movement support gay rights. The march on Washington, DC, where Martin Luther King, Jr. gave his famous speech was organized by a gay man. Gay people were there for the Black community, and some of the Black civil rights leaders want to be there for the gay community.
garysdeskcom 2 years ago
I do say Gary that you have an un-paralleled way to speak, present and persuade people. It would not surprise me if you were a very successful businessman or motivational speaker. The same kinds of people that I used buy a ticket to in school and then go home early. Now I kind of wish I had stayed to hear them speak.
countsoss 2 years ago
Thank you for the very kind words. I wish I was a successful businessman or a motivational speaker. I've spoken many times in churches. People have posted that I sound like somebody on PBS. :-D I suspect that could mean I have a voice to fall asleep to. :-> Thanks for watching and posting.
garysdeskcom 2 years ago
discrimination is discrimination. whether it is a matter of race,gender,sexual orientation,religion. for any of the above groups TO OK DISCRIMINATION towards one another is digustingly hypocritical and vile
obamadidit2008 2 years ago
Very good point. Discrimination and hate crimes are equal opportunity employers. They can strike any and almost all people. Discrimination and hate is always wrong. Thanks for watching and commenting.
garysdeskcom 2 years ago
There are lots of black gay women (maybe 1,500,000 in the USA alone) who should be able to tell us from first hand experience how these three forms of discrimination compare. I have heard several highlight the similarities.
You are right that historically both black men and gay men have been falsely stigmatized as sexual predators - and women as temptresses - especially by religious organizations. All minorities, even the left handed, have been seen by some as a moral threat to society.
maitriparamita 2 years ago
Excellent points. Interesting post. Some theories on how people assume a gay identity are borrowed from theories about how people assume a Black identity. There is some thought that the way people assume a gay identity varies significantly between White and Black gays.
garysdeskcom 2 years ago
Gary, can you explain this point - I'm not sure I understand.
maitriparamita 2 years ago
I am reading the book "Why are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria." The authors feel Black identity starts to become more solidified during adolescence and is often triggered by discrimination. There are theories about how Black youth start to identify as Black. Those have been adapted by theorists and applied to gay people. Two books I am reading now that are about new queer youth attack that approach. They point out differences in identification patterns.
garysdeskcom 2 years ago
Some Black and Hispanic men do not identify as gay or bisexual. They may have sex with other men, but never choose to use the words gay or bisexual. AIDS/HIV awareness campaigns have had to use the term "men who have sex with men" to reach some Black and Hispanic men. I am not sure if lesbians come to identify as lesbian in the same way gay men do. I have not been able to read that much on the topic, but know some authors feel there are racial differences as to how people identify as gay.
garysdeskcom 2 years ago
50 years ago most white 'men who had sex with men' would not identify as gay or bisexual. I think this phenomenon ultimately has nothing to do with race, it reflects the level of homophobia and internalized homophobia in their own immediate community. It applies as much to white men in rural areas or southern States or in lower income groups as it does to men in racial minority communities.
maitriparamita 2 years ago
I wish a few of us could have a coffee discussion. :-D That is a very good point. Homophobia levels keep people in the closet and keep them from identifying as gay. In ancient Roman and Greek cultures same-gender sexual behavior seemed to be well accepted, but I am not sure there was a sense of a different identity. A unique and separate queer identity might be a bit foreign to some cultures, although I think we see it spreading due to the influence of western cultures.
garysdeskcom 2 years ago
OK, I see. I think the process you describe for black youth facing discrimination applies to queer youth too. They first identify themselves as queer, then sit together with the other queer kids in the cafeteria and classroom then later identify as members of the LBTQ community. In both cases, when there there is no longer much discrimination, this identification process begins to disappear. [See Ritch Savin-Williams' somewhat optimistic book 'The New Gay Teenager'].
maitriparamita 2 years ago
The New Gay Teenager is the book I was going to refer to and you beat me to that. :-D I fear the book is very optimistic. Objections to the common steps of sexual identity development can be found on pages 74 and on. She questions if lesbian identity is the same as gay male identity development. When in college, I had a few friends who later came out as gay. I was not sure they were gay then or that I was gay then. Interesting how that worked.
garysdeskcom 2 years ago
maitriparamita, I agree with you that there are many who have first hand experience of three forms of discrimination for example. But we must always remember that each experience is individual may NOT be able to translate into a general experience of discrimination for another.
OneWorldOneLife 2 years ago
There can be problems trying to take the specific examples and adapt or apply them to populations. Sometimes we do that and it seems to work. Other times we do that and it does not work very well.
The discussion is interesting. I know I need to do a lot more reading about queer theory and identity development research to say much. I feel very much in over my head. :-)
garysdeskcom 2 years ago
Firstly, I think you forgot to mention that there are individuals that are both black and gay (or other ethnic minorities that are gay). So, there are people who know what it is like to be gay and an ethnic minority!
OneWorldOneLife 2 years ago
Secondly, I agree with you that there should not be any competition to see which group has suffered more historical persecution. This is not at all helpful!
OneWorldOneLife 2 years ago
However, I find in the media, they often discuss ethnic minority leaders/groups discriminating against lgbtq leaders/groups but they never discuss lgbtq leaders/groups discriminating against ethnic minorities.
OneWorldOneLife 2 years ago
I recall a personal incident at the U of T when a Muslim (female) friend of mine was assumed to be homophobic by members of the lgbtq association before they even talked to her. They just assumed because she was Muslim, she must discriminate against gays.
OneWorldOneLife 2 years ago
So, my point is that, yes, ethnic minority groups must work together with lgbtq association but also, lgbtq associations must not assume that ethnic minorities are necessarily homophobic. Both practices are equally unproductive and derail our aim of respecting human equality!
OneWorldOneLife 2 years ago
Very good point. It goes both ways. Black people are not always treated well by GLBTQ identified people. :-(
garysdeskcom 2 years ago
I've seen internal discrimination and division between all the minorities - including gay people who are biphobic, transphobic, misogynist or racist. We'll get nowhere until we stick together.
maitriparamita 2 years ago
The level of persecution on each side (Black and Gay) is so high I can hardly comprehend it, let alone try to figure out who was hurt the worst.
garysdeskcom 2 years ago
Very good point. Unfortunately, members of visible minorities who are also gay and lesbian often themselves rejected within their racial group as well as in the GLBT community. The level of discrimination they face is staggering.
garysdeskcom 2 years ago
Comment removed
OneWorldOneLife 2 years ago
great message gary
QueerAsFaith 2 years ago
Thanks for watching and the kind comments.
garysdeskcom 2 years ago