Sam Harris: Bible/Koran are the work of God?

[patientthomist]

Sam's second claim is untrue. Sam says "the content of these books has been deemed so profound that they could not possibly have been produced by the human mind". Christians do not think this. Christians think the profundity of the Bible is accomplished by the human mind in cooperation with God's grace of infallibility. Easy way to show it's not true? Find a contradiction in the Bible, Sam. Good luck, you ignorant fool :)

[spamdude1]

@patientthomist You're just adding nonsense to what he said -- "God's grace of infallibility?" Enjoy your brainwashing.

[patientthomist]

@spamdude1

So you think Sam's work is nonsense as well. I agree. But you think "God's grace of infallibility" is nonsense. Well, spamdude, I can prove God's existence by reason alone. I can prove by reason that God only wills the good, which is the same as love. AND I can show with certainty the reality of infallibility. Which one would you like first?

[ninjajesus81]

@patientthomist You can't prove god's existence by reason or any other way. You can't prove that he only wills the good, and you can't show the reality of infallibility.

There are also many contradictions in the Bible, which I'm sure you'd bend over backwards like nothing ever seen before, trying to explain.

You're the worst kind of theist, and everyone hates you. Stop being shitty.

[patientthomist]

@ninjajesus81

Ninja ... there cannot be an infinite regression of causes or motions that bring us into being and motion, since one cannot pass through an infinite chain of causes or motions to reach our current being. Hence there is a First Cause which is an unmoved mover. Since it is unmoved it is not energy or matter ... hence spiritual. Since it is the cause of all power and knowledge it is omnipotent and omniscient.  Since it lacks nothing it is good. These are qualities of God, idiot.

[ninjajesus81]

@patientthomist Terrible.

There is a first cause of what? The big bang? Prove it.

It's an unmoved mover? Prove it.

It's not energy or matter? Prove it.

It's Spiritual? Prove it.

But before you prove it's spiritual, you have to prove that spiritual things CAN exist, and then you must prove that spiritual things DO exist.

It's the cause of all power and knowledge? Prove it. And prove that requires an omnipotent and omniscient being.

Lacking nothing = good? How? Prove it.

You have nothing.

[patientthomist]

@ninjajesus81

You're a ninja alright ... a ninja of meatheads. The fact that you can't understand deductive logic is PROOF that the proofs for God are above you.

[ninjajesus81]

@patientthomist I'll take that as your concession.

You can't prove anything, you just want to be champion in your own mind. It's pathetic.

[patientthomist]

@ninjajesus81

OK ninja ... I'll slow it down for you, like a Matrix movie .... you said "it's an unmoved mover? prove it" after I explained the impossibility of an infinite regress of motions. That's the equivalent of me proving the Pythagorean Theorum, followed by you saying "prove it". I did prove it, but you're not smart enough to see that ... that's OK ... the Bible is for dumb people like you who can't know God's existence by reason.

[ninjajesus81]

@patientthomist I asked a bunch of questions, and you narrowed it down to one? Are you serious? And you didn't even answer that one question, you just said you proved it without providing any proof.

You said motion has to start somewhere, and to answer the question of what started the universe, you stick "god" in there to answer that question, and then say god didn't need to be moved, which defeats your entire argument that motion has to start somewhere. What moved god?

[patientthomist]

@ninjajesus81

I didn't stick God in anywhere ... the argument from motion only proves that there is an unmoved mover, which is not moved by another. To ask "what moved the unmoved mover" is to not understand the impossibility of an infinite regress. Think of it this way .... you can't pass through an unlimited chain of motions to reach YOUR current motion. It's only possible if there is something which doesn't move that makes the first motion of another thing. Get it so far?

[ninjajesus81]

@patientthomist You're saying the universe couldn't have started moving on its own, so to explain why it's moving, you have to insert a magical thing that can break the rule that you created: "something can't move on its own".

Instead of admitting maybe you don't know enough about quantum mechanics and cosmology to say for sure that the universe can't begin moving on its own, you have to insert something magical into the equation, which just causes more questions than it answers.

[patientthomist]

@ninjajesus81

NEVER did I say there was a rule "something can't move on its own." That is a misreading or intentional error or caricatore of the unmoved mover argument, which you can't seem to understand. Quantum mechanics makes no claims about infinite regressions, since the object of study is different. Cosmology is not opposed to formal logic, since both are geared to truth. There is no escaping the logic that you can't grasp ... if you do grasp, explain the argument back to me. OK?

[DupersFucker]

@ninjajesus81 You are right and your comments are scientific and logic. The whole universe is meticulously designed by a wise force and we call it "God".

[ninjajesus81]

@DupersFucker Prove it.

[DupersFucker]

@ninjajesus81 Faith is unseen. Science is seeing is believing but Faith is believing and seeing. God forsakes the so called intelligentsia but recognizes the fools who are chosen to be wise and simple.

[ninjajesus81]

@DupersFucker So god only lets stupid people know he exists, and then the smart people have to rely on stupid people to give us the facts.

What a backwards system that is.

[j919or]

@ninjajesus81 Nah. Those that think they are smart arent open to learn from God and so they think that Gods systems are backwards. They dont realize that God made their minds and so how can the created be wiser than the creator?

[ninjajesus81]

@j919or That would be true if we could in fact learn from god. But if humans write a book and say it's the word of god, then I'm just reading a human system, written by humans who did not create me.

It all comes down to the fact that there's no evidence that the Bible is the word of god. And there's not even an indication that the Bible required divine authorship. There is not one sentence in the Bible that couldn't have been thought up by an iron age Arab.

[j919or]

@DupersFucker ""Faith is believing and seeing""

This is the crux of it all. Know that faith IS the evidence just as your eyes are the evidence that there is light and things have color. Faith in the spiritual life that enables us to perceive God. Without those spiritual eyes everything else is darkness and makes no sense but with those spiritual eyes all other things take shape, and make sense.

[awpti]

@patientthomist infidels dot org/library/modern/jim_meritt/­bible-contradictions.html

Your move.

[patientthomist]

@awpti

Nothing on the site is contradictory ... for example, the Lord can "go to war" for the sake of peace. Provided that the conditions of just war are met, the act of war is good, and therefore and act of love, since love is in reality choosing the good. Your move :)

[MayonR]

@patientthomist Your absolutely right. That claim is actually a Koranic claim. Even Ravi Zacharias said "the Bible makes no claim that any one word could not have been better any other". So Harris's argument is null as far as the Bible goes. He seems to be attacking the Bible and simply grouped the Koran to build this false perception, that the Bible even claims that.

[patientthomist]

@MayonR

Peace, MayonR ...

[patientthomist]

Sam's first sentence is untrue, which impacts the rest of what he says. Christian belief is NOT that the Bible was dictated by God. Sam is incorrect, and more generally ignorant.

[breaneainn]

In 1000 years they'll be worshiping elvis, or "Evel-hua"(be praised). He..has a glowing white suit, he was the king, and we're not sure if he actually died or not.

Get me?

[nosajj12345]

"70% of college graduates believe the bible is the word of god..."

LOL...I thought college was where one goes to learn to apply logic and to think critically and rationally. You are not suppose to come out of college with a continuing belief in the legitimacy of the bible; you're suppose to emerge with enough courage, and education to question and challenge it. To graduate and not at least be compelled to question Christianity is a definite waste of at least half that education. damn shame!

[Gravija1980]

We interupt this video for a special news bulletin: Seventy percent of college graduates are idiots. Now back to our scheduled programming...

[sgpquek]

Lord Blankfein the CEO of Goldman said he is doing god's work

[mcdinkity]

religion needs to be stamped out this damn jesus cult is like a horror movie wake up people your brainwashed its all made up lies

[voncello]

The very premise of the question is misleading. Just because the Bible and the Koran are considered holy books by various groups of people, that doesn't mean that they are related. It would be like asking, "Are the US Constitution and the Soviet Charter good guarantees of democracy?" Or "Are Jesus and HItler good role models?"

[ciaochowbella]

@voncello If you'd ever read the Bible and Quran you'd know they are related. Same heroes, same stories, same deity and very similar dogma. It's blatantly obvious that the Quran is, in large part, plagiarized from the Bible. This fact rather tends to discredit the idea that Muhammed got his "revelation" from an angel or that he was illiterate.

[voncello]

@ciaochowbella If I ever read the Bible and Koran? I've read both many times. Same heroes? I never read about Mohammed in the Bible. Same stories? I never read about Jihad in the Bible. Same deity? I never read about Allah in the Bible. Similar dogma? I haver read about the duty to convert the whole world to Islam, nor did I read that one must accept Mohammed, nor did I read that you can kill non-believers, nor did I read that Mecca is holy, nor did I read that the Bible made false claims...

[ciaochowbella]

@voncello You're obviously so biased for the Bible as to be unable to notice that it shares much of the same content. I never said it was EXACTLY the same. I said they were obviously related, with the Quran being largely plagiarized from the Bible. That is not to say that the plagiarist, Muhammed, didn't have his own agenda and didn't change a few things to suit his needs.

As for the false claimes of the Bible, there are millions. They start with a talking snake.....

[voncello]

@ciaochowbella If the Bible and Koran share so much content, give a few examples. Tell me what sections have been plagiarized and where they are located in the Koran. And tell me where there is a talking snake in the Bible.

[ciaochowbella]

@voncello The Quran has the same heroes and patriarch as the Bible. They share the same story of the flood. They share the exact same god. They honor the same prophets. The plagiarism is throughout the Quran in not only the heroes, prophets and patriarch, but in the very similar laws.

The talking snake in the Bible is in Genesis. Supposedly, he was the creature that told Eve the truth about the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Guess you've not read either book, have you?

[voncello]

@ciaochowbella You did not fulfill my request for sections that have been plagiarized. You just repeated "same heroes and patriarchs". Anyone can SAY anything. Give me some chapters and verses otherwise you are just making unsubstantiated claims.

Jewish and Sharia law are very different. If they were so similar Jews and Arabs would easily live together in peace.

You mean the serpent, not snake, of Genesis. It was a representation of Satan. It's a story, a parable, not a "false claim".

[voncello]

@ciaochowbella Another example of how different the Koran is from the Bible: the Bible mentions Jerusalem over 600 times and calls it the holiest place on earth. The Koran mentions it zero times! It calls Mecca the holiest place. Mecca doesn't appear in the Bible. The goal of Islam it the take over of the world, forcing all to become Muslim. The goal of Judaism is for the Jews to live in Israel and encourage all nations to live together in peace. The contrast couldn't be more stark and clear.

[ciaochowbella]

@voncello So what? That still doesn't mean it's not plagiarized from the Bible. Your example means nothing. Of course the Quran is different from the Bible. That still doesn't change the fact that the Quran is OBVIOUSLY plagiaristically derivative even if it isn't copied word for word.

Why are you mentioning Judaism? That wasn't even part of the original question.

You don't seem capable of understanding basic concepts. Please go look up the meaning of "plagiarism".

[voncello]

@ciaochowbella I don't get the need for your nasty attitude. I am more than "capable" of understanding plagiarism. You apparently don't understand it. It is defined as "the unauthorized use or close imitation of the language and thoughts of another author and the representation of them as one's own original work". The Koran doesn't use "the language" of the Bible nor does it pass it off as its own. Furthermore there was no process to "authorize" use of the Bible 1000 years ago. Epic fail!

[voncello]

@ciaochowbella And if you were to say it used "the thoughts" of the Bible, you would have to prove that it passed off those thoughts as its own. You have not cited evidence of even a thought that the Koran took from the Bible. On the other hand I have cited several differences and pointed out that whole gist of the two books are very different. Why do I mention Judaism? What do you think the Bible is all about? It is the foundation of Judaism. Spend less time arguing and more time learning.

[voncello]

@ciaochowbella Perhaps you mean "plagiarism" not the literal sense but that the Koran (and the New Testament) portray themselves as being a continuation or fulfillment of the Bible. They claim to be of God and claim to respect Jewish law, however they both seek to undermine that law and the biblical concept of God and replace them with their own. To that extent I would agree with you. They, in effect, "plagiarize" Judaism while twisting it into something that is in conflict with it.

[ciaochowbella]

@voncello Christianity makes no bones about being taken directly from Judaism. Islam, on the other hand, claims it's an entirely fresh and new revelation when it is demonstrably NOT. It steals the same stories and heroes and ideals directly from the Bible with some editing changes that suited Mohammed.

If you write a book and publish it, then I later use your characters and plot lines, even if I write it my way, that is plagiarism. The Quran is plagiarized from the Bible.

[voncello]

@ciaochowbella I agree with the overall sentiment. Clearly both the New Testament and Koran are attempts by non-Jewish cultures (Roman & Arab) to co-opt the Jewish Bible and make it appear that their new Bibles are the culmination or fulfillment of the Jewish. If you want to call that plagiarism that's okay. Where I disagree is when you accept the interpretations of the Jewish Bible promoted by the plagiarists! And then attempt to lump them all together. Your insights should show you otherwise.

[ciaochowbella]

@voncello The NT freely and fully admits to building on early Jewish writings and HAS to have them for it's existence since Jesus was supposedly prophesied and incorporates those teachings and some of the scriptures, hence NOT plagiarism. The Quran is CLAIMED to be a new revelation yet obviously takes it's characters and stories from a pre-existing text as I originally stated.

I never got into ANY interpretations. Don't lie to me about what I've stated. You're making shit up.

[voncello]

@ciaochowbella Cut the emotions. You said, "the Bible and Quran...are related. Same heroes, same stories, same deity and very similar dogma". I have written extensively on the vast differences in the portrayal of God and the dogma. Christianity says God is 3 parts. Islam says God wants Jihad and hates infidels. Judaism says God is one and loves all His children. Your claim that these ideas are similar is YOUR interpretation! The NT also CLAIMED new revelations or they'd be following Jewish law.

[ciaochowbella]

@voncello You need to cut the emotion. Your the one desperate to distance the Bible from the Quran.

Regardless of the differences, of which I was previously aware, the fact remains that the Quran IS plagiarized from the Bible. You can't get away from that fact no matter how much you try to.

[voncello]

@ciaochowbella I have not been emotional, but you have said, "I never got into ANY interpretations. Don't lie to me about what I've stated. You're making shit up." Such sentences are nothing more than an attempt to use emotionalism to push your agenda. Now in this post you did it again saying, "You can't get away from that fact no matter how much you try to." This again is not an argument but is merely an emotional taunt. Furthermore, you are now just repeating yourself.

[voncello]

@ciaochowbella In the Bible God tells Moses His name. In fact, He makes a big deal about this saying, "YH-VH (in Hebrew) . . .This is My name forever, and this is My memorial unto all generations.” (Exodus 3:15) Thinking logically, how do you get from YH-VH to the names Jesus & Allah? God specifically said that "YH-VH" was His name FOREVER and unto ALL GENERATIONS. So even in the basic issue of God's name, you can see the NT and Koran are not really about the same Deity, though they claim to be.

[ciaochowbella]

@voncello So what?

That is semantics argued badly.

The Quran is widely recognized by scholars of comparative theology to be plagiaristically derivative of the Bible. No amount of fit-pitching and whining on your part will change that.

[voncello]

@ciaochowbella Here you go again with the emotions saying, "No amount of fit-pitching and whining on your part will change that." The fact is my argument was well made and the product of scholarship. You didn't respond to the specifics of my argument but merely dismissed it without any contrary evidence. Another example of using emotionalism to push your agenda.

[voncello]

@ciaochowbella Suppose I write a biography of Ciaochowbella and detail your positions on many issues. Then 1000 years later someone writes a new book supposedly about you but they call you Sally and have you take contrary positions to what you actually did. Would you say that the new book is about you? Same character? But the name is different! Same dogma? But the positions are contrary! You have been taught to see these very different books as the same but you can rise above this falsehood.

[ciaochowbella]

@voncello You can hem and haw and try to make clever illustrations all you want. The fact remains that the Quran is, in large part, plagiarized from the Bible. It is not a word for word copy.

BTW, 'allah' is merely the Arabic word for 'god'. Much like 'dios' is the Spanish word for 'god'. Translating a name or word isn't changing it.

You're really making yourself appear desperate and sad by trying to distance the Bible from the Quran. This fact has been noted for a very long time.

[voncello]

@ciaochowbella Let's move past emotions to facts. "The pagan Arabs worshipped the Moon-god Allah by praying toward Mecca several times a day; making a pilgrimage to Mecca; running around the temple of the Moon-god called the Kabah; kissing the black stone; killing an animal in sacrifice to the Moon-god, etc. The Muslim's claim that Allah is the God of the Bible and that Islam arose from the religion of the prophets and apostles is refuted by solid, overwhelming archeological evidence. "

[voncello]

@ciaochowbella These are sources for the information that Allah was the moon-god of Arabia and Mohammed's claim that Allah is the God of the Bible is untrue: The Cult of the Moon God, The True Origin of 'Allah': The Archaeological Record Speaks, The Vatican and Islam. Rather than engaging in insults and emotional quips let's see if you can produce some scholarship and references to prove your contention that Allah and the "LORD" have the same derivation and history and are one in the same.

[ciaochowbella]

@voncello You can stir all the dust you want and argue all the semantics you desire. It changes NOTHING.

The Quran is derived directly from the Bible, your rabid adoration of Christianity notwithstanding.

[voncello]

@ciaochowbella You know nothing of my beliefs or "adorations". The fact is, I am not a Christian and have mixed feelings about that religion. This is just another attempt of yours to lash out emotionally. Clearly you have no scholarship to back up your claims. I wonder why a grown woman would spend her time this way. I encourage people to study more and argue less. My goal is to educate people on the subject of religion, not fight about it. You can find out about this at my page. Best wishes.

[ciaochowbella]

@voncello You are the one defending the Bible tooth and nail, not me. You are the one writing obssesive posts desperately attempting to distance the Bible from the Quran, not me. You are the one who is emotionally tortured by the comparison, not me. You are the one spending vast amounts of time writing multiple posts to one comment, not me.

I am not visiting your page. I'm not that concerned.

The fact remains that the Quran is obviously plagiarized from the Bible even if you don't like it

[voncello]

@ciaochowbella One can defend the Bible and not be a Christian. I am not defending the Bible but merely backing up points with facts with references. All you are doing is spewing forth negative emotional posts void of any scholarship or references. You can remain ignorant of my page but on yours you say "I'm a person who is adverse to dogma and immovable doctrine of any variety. Whether it be religion, politics or ideology." Yet you totally swallow your own dogma and refuse to be educated.

[ciaochowbella]

@voncello Wow. OCD much? Four posts to reply to one.....my goodness.

Dear, you can play all the semantical games you wish, but it changes nothing. The Quran is obviously, and plagiaristically, derived from the Bible whether you like it or not. This is not dogma. It's a fact. Please learn the difference between dogma and facts

BTW, I thought you said you were done here. Guess you're more interested in defending a book of fairy tales than maintaining your integrity. Interesting.

[voncello]

@ciaochow Dogma - " a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds". That is the definition and that is what you do. I supplied quotes with references stating that Allah was the moon-god of pagan Arabs. Then Mohammed decreed that Allah was the same as God in the Bible. It is simply a fact that the derivation and history of Allah and God are different. But you claim your belief that they're the same is authoritative without adequate grounds. Indeed, with no grounds.

[ciaochowbella]

@voncello The fact that numerous scholars of comparative theology and various historians agree that the Quran is derived from the Bible means it is not a dogma, but a fact. Even early Quranic scholars noted that this was the case. This seems to me MORE than adequate grounds. If you'd bothered to actually study the issue, you'd know this. Instead, you choose to study apologetics.

Your references don't change that fact that the Quran is OBVIOUSLY plagiarized from the Bible. The Hadith too.

[voncello]

@ciaochowbella You have stated your opinion over and over but have never backed it up with any quotes or references. What is obvious is that Muslims make THE CLAIM that Mohammed was from the same line of prophets as the Jewish prophets and that he updated their prophecies. To the extent that you want to call that plagiarizing that's fine. But clearly Allah has a different derivation and history than YH-VH and has different commands and goals. To say they're the same it to buy into Islamic dogma.

[ciaochowbella]

@voncello In my earliest comments, I explained why I agreed with the scholars and experts who point out that the Quran is plagiarized from the Bible. I've already covered this material. I shouldn't have to repeat myself. You're free to go back and re-read that if you desire. I am not going to reiterate it simply because you haven't paid attention.

[voncello]

@ciaochowbella I just read our "discussion" for the first time and see several false claims by you. You never "explained" your beliefs but merely stated them over and over again. You also falsely claimed that I said I was not replying anymore. I said "Best Wishes" but that is not the same. I even conceded that one could say the Koran is "plagiarized" but you are so negative that you didn't even realize it! You also don't realize that YH-VH and Allah are not the same nor is Sharia and Torah law.

[ciaochowbella]

@voncello Just so you know, I'm not encouraging your OCD any further. I've stated my case and given my reasons. It was REALLY simple and didn't need volumes to back it up. Your multiple posts replying to a single comment implies a rather unhealthy obssession with my POV. I am done with you. And, unlike you, who has already stated that you're not replying to me further, but continue with unabated fervor, I will no longer give your spurious assertions and semantical arguments anymore time.

[voncello]

@ciaochowbella It will be a pleasure to see you disappear. We will see if you really do as you are the one who seems truly obsessed with spewing forth your negativity. Let it be noted for the record that you just made two posts to my one. Your posts are also always emotional diatribes that don't respond to my points, nor do you ever supply a single quote or source for your beliefs. You are a truly unpleasant person who apparently just likes to use the internet as a place to play nasty games.

[voncello]

@ciaochowbella Despite your childish insults about "OCD" and "obsession" you are the one who first replied to my post, and you have responded tit for tat all the way through. Except that your posts have been consistently negative, insulting, and devoid of scholarship. Mine have been reasonable and supplied with quotes and sources. We agree that the Koran is derived from the Bible but you don't understand the differences. I have tried in vain to reason with you. I really hope you've gone away.

[queenastilon]

@voncello Sorry, but "Anyone can SAY anything" is pathetic. You don't even know it's the same story. First couple, paradise lost, pharaoh, Moses, the exodus, the flood, Noah's ark. Islam reveres Jesus, born of the virgin, but calls him a prophet rather than co-god. Abraham is celebrated more by Islam, annually, as a man so holy he agreed to murder his young son at god's whim, just as in the Bible. Googling differences to try and prove something just makes you look silly

[queenastilon]

@queenastilon Judaism's goals: the Old Testament orders believers to massacre everyone in any town they find where even 1 man worships another god. The instructions to love your neighbours evidently applies only to those close by who worship the right god.

Mohammed added "and no returns!" by saying his was the final version (Allah just means god).

Some say plagiarism because it's the same story. Hopefully you get it now.

What was that about spending more time learning?

[voncello]

@queenastilon Islam calls non-believers "infidels" and calls for the murder of so called "infidels" all around the world. Learn:

"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)

"Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:103-)

"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)

[voncello]

@queenastilon Isaiah summed up Judaism's goal:

In the last days the mountain of the LORD’s temple will be established

...and all nations will stream to it....and say, “Come, let us go up to ...the temple of the God of Jacob.”

The law will go out from Zion, the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

He will judge between the nations...

They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks.

Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.

[voncello]

@queenastilon Furthermore, what you are doing is taking stories from different cultures separated by thousands of years and calling them "the same story". "First couple, paradise lost, pharaoh, Moses, the exodus, the flood, Noah's ark" are from the Jewish Bible. Jesus is from the Christian Bible and Mohammed is from the Muslim Bible (Koran). Yes, the latter two claim to be a continuation or "fulfillment" of the Jewish Bible but they are clearly products of Gentile cultures many centuries later!

[ethios4]

@muhammadfuckedAkid - no doubt! There is far too little skepticism and critical thought in the world. The truth will always prevail for those who genuinely seek, it wherever that path leads. If that means giving up cherished beliefs along the way, so be it. There is no fear in submitting to rational inquiry.

[ethios4]

@muhammadfuckedAkid - Why can't they work together? The uses and domain of spirituality are not the same as those of science. Science itself does not provide meaning or any sort of ethical code, nor does it address the aspect of human consciousness that spirituality does. Unfortunately, I think most of us have only ever encountered misguided and false spirituality. For most of history, science and religion worked together eg, the birth of the university system/concept.

[CubaColombianito]

this guys a doosh. lol, "oh look at me, im witty and smart!' rofl! God is the truth and if you worship images and idols your straying from him.

[bladeqmaster]

@muhammadfuckedAkid sorry, just wondering, in your opinion. what will happen after we died.

[ethios4]

@muhammadfuckedAkid - Agreed, although reality is not limited to what can be 'proven' or 'known' from a human standpoint.

[ethios4]

@muhammadfuckedAkid - It's an assumption that today's knowledge would be better than ancient knowledge in the realm of spirituality, not a fact. These are mostly non-empirical non-scientific subjects of human experience, not material technologies.

[ethios4]

@muhammadfuckedAkid - thanks for the correction. Is it true that the Quran is considered more directly revealed than the Bible?

[ethios4]

Jews and Christians don't believe the Old or New Testament were "written by God", but written by inspired humans. Muslims believe the Koran was written by God.

[TheMightyAC]

@ethios4 Wasn't the Koran apparently revealed by Mohammad?

[TheMightyAC]

@ethios4 Wasn't the Koran apparently revealed by Mohammad?

[ethios4]

@TheMightyAC The dominant Muslim belief is that the Koran is an eternal text that was dictated verbatim to Mohammad, and that it had no human input whatsoever aside from transcribing it. The Christian belief is that the Bible was written by humans working with God, but not dictated verbatim. Therefore, it can be studied within it's context in history and culture, according to historical-grammatical hermeneutics to learn more about it's meaning. It is a subtle but critical difference.

[sgtcrab1]

@TheMightyAC Perhaps but the Book of Mormon was certainly dictated to Joseph Smith by means of golden tablets. Last time god apparently had much to say in writing.

[richardshapiroII]

@sgtcrab1

yeah, and those tablets sure are pretty...

oh, wait, where did they go?

oh, thats too bad, Id really like to see em.

so, just how certain are you that they exist?

how certain are you that god was dictating while Mr. Smith was writing?

and how do you know that?

right...

[bary1234]

Sam Harris is so good :) Man I´m happy these brilliant atheists exist and are getting their voice heard in the world.

[baikinmon]

"Try not to deep fry all of your food." This guy is good.

[killslowly]

zenforaday: nothing in the new testament is said by Jesus. it is all paraphrased by the writers.

Maybe what Jesus did not say is more important. Like... never saying that slavery is bad. Just one example of evil by omission. But I do love the Good News. it is good hopeful reading.

[zenforaday]

This is true - but I don't see any way anyone could improve on what Jesus said. Of course if I'm wrong, please respond with an example of something Jesus said that you can improve on.

[yekepapredoe]

Abrahamic literature is obsolete. Let's move on.

[ArcadianGenesis]

"What about, Try not to deep-fry all of your food?"

LMAO. Brilliant.

[userwl2850]

are those stats on americans correct? shit they,ve got nukes and think they,re going to heaven when dead. gulppp.

[TheRebelofTheLight]

he and hitchens are my favorite of the for horseman

I don't know why but I like Sam more

[SirPwn4lot]

Hitchens and Harris are pretty inseparable intellectually, but I too prefer Sam. Hitchens seems to think he's already got the best argument and so just repeats it, Sam adapts his talking points to each audience and isn't so arrogant lol.

[ArcadianGenesis]

Really? Hitchens is my least favorite. He just seems like the odd one out. He's the only one of the four who's not a scientist. (Well, Dennett is a philosopher, but he's a philosopher of science, and technically philosophers can be called scientists.)

My favorites are Dawkins and Harris. Biology + Antireligion = Win.

[TheRebelofTheLight]

i intellectual a more like hitchens. because my foudations in in things like history and philosophy

[steveo3141]

i like hitchens because of the way he really does have the best stance and he knows it. he has studied both sides, taken all of that data given him and made the best decision he can. though i like the dawkins +hitchens idea the best, maybe throw in a bit of sam harris and u've got a party.

[artshop1321]

we can believed anything at list when we die we believed the one who created this mysterious human beings...

[zackhery9]

A non-believer says to a believer. " What are you doing believing in the GOD? What if u die, and nothing happens.. you wasted your time in this world believing....

the believer says back to him. " Ya man, you got a point. Like you said, everyone dies, no exception.But what happens if we die, and there is a GOD..... ???????

[Aaberg123]

And then you find out that you pissed off the wrong one, (one in tens of thousands proposed), and you end in eternal fire.

Sorry, Pascal's Wager is non-argument.

[accersitusmaximus]

As you loose bio electrical power, the synapses in your brain starts to detach creating all kinds of pleasant or unpleasant experiences, until the brain function completely shuts down and you are gone forever.

"Every time a man dies, a whole world dies with him."

- Josef Popper-Lynkeus

[magicdogfighterV2]

Well, apparently god forgives so where's the problem...?

[SWAC424]

I love this man.

[n3nshat1]

This guy is a complete deciever. If you actually read and study the scriptures you will perceive a backround wisdom in the scriptures. A energy that takes an open heart to understand. Trust me when i say this, study the bible and islam and you will be amazed at where it will take you! We live in a very corrupt world and your governments are making you into blind followers of their true agendas!

[mabans]

Then how does it explain religious fighting for centuries. No one says there aren't real good "lessons" but cherry picking doesn't work. This makes the bible and koran fallible.

[zeldagoblin]

Governments? I think you will find that governments are anything but secular, these are the very people who are forcing schools to teach Christianity, and hold assemblies for worship. Certainly not leading people into atheism.

[gungner78]

It takes a closed mind not to notice the human origin of these "holy" books. Sure there is wisdom there (although surprisingly little), but that isn´t denied by Harris. His argument here is valid: Any decent contemporary human could improve the bible or quran just by tearing out some of the stupid and immoral parts.

[crylo2000]

It comes down to this. We r all going 2 die. RU 100% sure that there is no God? If U R 100% sure then U don't have anything to worry about. If you have any doubt then U should consider that there may be an afterlife & if you follow the Bible and there isn't an afterlife what have you lost? Nothing. You raised your children in a good religious home, you taught them respect for others and how to share and love. What is so bad about that? Each person has to decide for himself. Am I right or wrong?

[fiusux12]

you're flat-out wrong. Look up occam's Razor. If you believe out of fear that you might be wrong, doesn't your invisible sky daddy know it? So you're lying to him/her/it. And teaching religion to children is a form of child abuse. But wait, the Bible encourages that, so you're ok. I live a moral, ethical life because I was taught to respect others from atheist parents, and I'm going to teach the same thing to my children. You should rethink your I believe cause I might be wrong theory.

[sam51092]

What you invoked was Pascal's Wager, the idea that you should believe because it's a 'good bet' with no down side. Well there is a down side- despite what you said, what I see from a lot of religionists is that dogma reduces love and respect for those different from themselves. If this IS the only life, then we DO lose a lot with Pascal's Wager.

Besides, I make the wager that if God truly exists and is good, he'll reward honest search for truth over such shamelessly dishonest bet-hedging.

[richardshapiroII]

@sam51092

perhaps god isn't so partial, and he's not gonna reward anyone.

or perhaps, he lets us reward ourselves...

[crylo2000]

He doesn't understand faith. If man is so great and wise how come we keep fight, killing, polluting, raping, robbing, stealing, etc. etc, etc. and don't solve the world's problems. Because we are not following the word of God. Simple. Man is slow screwing up the planet and because of his great abililities is too blind to see that until it is too late. So sad.

[fiusux12]

precisely because there is no god. Otherwise he would punish the unjust and reward the believers. Do you ever see churches collapsing? In Italy the earthquakes ruined many churches. What was His plan for that? If they were left standing while everything else was ruined, that might be considered a miracle. Your argument is incredibly weak and I think you should do some more research and actually LISTEN to what this man is saying. It might improve the quality of your mile.

[devante11]

No, it is actually religion that causes divide and these tensions.

Beliefs/religion causes segregation, pockets of cults, which thus results in tensions, which in turn leads to wars and ultimately as a result leads to killings. Not mans fault just dumb man making up religion and so the cycle continues, you need to learn from history and of past god inventions

[rjurban101]

deep fried food part, the best...even though he's wrong. Yes, we must...why?...because it tastes better, and I can prove it, damn it!

[accersitusmaximus]

"Atheists are free to admit that there is much about the universe that we don't understand. It is obvious that we don't understand the universe, but it is even more obvious that neither the Bible nor the Quran reflects our best understanding of it."

- Sam Harris

[Phranch1]

The bible is 2 000 year old! Can´t people start to forget about that?

[lock378]

I think most people who believe in religion do it because it's an easy life. You don't need to think, religion is the 10th dimension. If you really want to stop religion all you need to do is lead the sheep in another direction, arguing with them won't help.

[LooseAggressive]

All religions are IDIOTIC if taken seriously. Sure it can be a comfort or support at hard times if you do not have enough selfesteem or if you have a weak mind. But basicaly its just stupid stories. And the more educated people get the more they stop to believe in religions.

[tigerw222]

Sience is treated differently because its KNOWLEDGE and religeon is a BELIEFE... yes ppl who claim to know anything about god are crazy or just incredibly dumb... you have to distinguish between knowledge and beliefe...

i sincerly doubt 78% of american KNOW the bible is the word of god... i do however believe that 78% of americans believe the bible is the word of god.

[risterapi]

They are sure enough to bet their own lifes on it. If that isnt to claim you KNOW something, I dont know what is.

You americans so need to reform and get into reality. How the fuck can it be so comforting to have a 24/7 dictator?

[eberabio]

wrong my friend, science is not KNOWLEDGE, as you claim, it is theory !

you are just acting dumb, you put yourself over religious people yet you make the very same mistakes as them :)

[tigerw222]

God doesnt write books... the storys are written by people who have experienced what they believe interactions of a godly nature... that is the christian premis and the premis of the koran. god didnt physicly write the bible in any beliefe. he just inspired the ppl who wrote it... so in every religion the bible is the product of human writing, and you can choose to believe its what god wants or not... anyone who claims to KNOW its the word of god hasnt read and understood the bible or the koran.

[risterapi]

hehe. sarcasm right?

[gr0gg0]

People who thinks you have to listen to what a book have to say before he listen to his fellowman is someone who never believes in other people. Only if it's something other than a human that tells him what is true. His definition of right he will never know, only the law know what is right, cause the law says so, and is not human.

[metaflex]

Seems ppl still need the moral standards the bible offers. Not to kill ect. Media wont give you those moral standards.

[5tr0ngBad]

maybe not, but common sense sure will

[PlatonnotalP]

Moral standards? Religion kills... lol

[VergetenPareltjes]

That dude makes sense and he's hilarious at the same time.

[ndjarnag]

I think Sam Harris is pretty arogant. BUT he makes alot of good points.

[FightDPower]

Harris rules!

[6aeus]

You are an idiot.

[sameer9900]

hundred of thousands rioted over cartoon???

[oggedask]

yup... they went ape over some danish cartoons depicting the prophet mohammed. and south park wanted to air an episode depicting him (just for spite i suppose) but was stopped. altough south park had shown the prophet earlier and with no stone-throwing or buring of embassies at all.

[kingmike40]

70% of people haven't studied the babble

[ferrariModenas]

thou shall not deep fry all food

[VolteBrandeau]

Those shalt not deep fry food!

[zuperduperboi]

I just don't think Christianity would be the same without deep fried food.

[takenflame]

@ferrariModenas subdivision of gluttony , sec. 156