What stands out in my mind is, "Can 2 wrongs make anything right?" I do not believe that it will change much in the way things are run. It is sad, but Man will only lead men to disastrous outcomes! The question is: "In what man could we put our trust in?" Do people not realize how hypocritical America and other nations are? "In God We Trust?" But does anyone know what THAT means? Do not put your trust in earthling man, for in his ways he cannot lead himself! More so an entire nation!
If we wanna be more effective about the "occupy" movement, remember this at election time. Ask the running candidates: "Do you support or are you against the intentions of the Occupy movement?" If the say they are against it, or they use their pre-briefed doublespeak skills and sound optimistically, but still don't really give any real answer, or even if they don't replay at all, then DO NOT elected that running candidate. Let's getting their greedy asses out of office!
Here’s a lesson in economics for OWS. Explain to the “99%” that they are actually in the 5% of richest people on the planet. Then take their wealth and redistribute it to the 95% of the world that is poorer than them. See how they feel about wealth redistribution then.
Demands from Occupy Movement... Reverse Citizens United & Criminalize Bribery & End Money in Politics , Repeal Patriot Act , Term Limits for All Politicians & Investigate Insider Trading , End All Wars & Close the 1500 Military Bases , Investigate 9/11 and bring transparency , End War on Marijuana , Reinstate Glass-Steagall Act , Two-Tier France-type health care , Prosecute Wall Street criminals , Get back 50 TRILLION DOLLARS lost by USA , End Corporatism, keep government & corporations SEPARATE
@halcyon0830 Citizens United was a great decision. Bribery is already a crime. Politics only functions with money. Patriot Act should always be re-examined periodically, but not repealed in toto. term limits is a good idea. Ending war isn't logical. Decriminalizing drugs is wise. prosecuting Wall Street criminals is a good idea. The other stuff is weird.
Here is one: When I loan (deposit) money to my bank, I get around 0.00001% in interest. Now, when the bank loans me money, I have to pay 15%-30% interest.
Of course, what I'm suggesting implies radical changes in the financial system, but if banks loaned at 1% and gave more than 0.00001% they would still make money. Speculation and exotic financial products need to go.
Talk doesn't change much, it just makes people comfy."One day....everything will be better....just cast your vote! Make a change..! Look, I held up a sign, so I'm validated! I don't have to DO anything now!"
Talk is cheap. If talk leads to action then great, but this stupid crisis has been going on for years because no one has "done" anything.
Start boycotting,sitting in, and creating larger protests that urge NOT PAYING the "pigs" and you might have something but protest then spending...nah.
Rothschild Bank of London, Warburg Bank of Hamburg, Rothschild Bank of Berlin, Lehman Brothers of New York, Lazard Brothers of Paris, Kuhn Loeb Bank of New York, Israel Moses Seif Banks of Italy, Goldman, Sachs of New York, Warburg Bank of Amsterdam, Chase Manhattan Bank of New York
@Wrothchild I removed the spam flag on your post, but when you say, "Israel did 911", you illustrate that you've done little study and possibly are associated with some fanatical cult.
Israel doesn't control Washington, regardless of how much some people pretend that the opposite is true. NONE of these people present sufficient proof, and until there is sufficient and necessary proof, learn to properly study, investigate, question, and communicate.
I guess I missed all of you posting intellegent comment on Keynesian Economics. It seems the Republicans are trashing this well proven theory, because none of them probably understand it. Only the truly ignorant believe in Supply Side or Trickle Down Economics.
@Mahayani I removed the spam flag that someone placed on your post because I don't see anything wrong with it. Too many jerks go around flagging other people's posts or comments as spam ; totally ridiculous and criticizable conduct by any Web user!
You surely know more about Keynesian Economics than I do, but while I've read some negative criticisms against it, I've also read some positive words about it at globalresearch[dot]ca.
There's nothing wrong with your post as far as I can see.
@mikecorbeil Thank you Mike, I am still waiting for jobs and economic growth proposal from all of those duped by the Koch brothers and Americans for Prosperity. The Republican House has offered nothing for jobs, only tax cuts for the rich. Taxes are already lower than they have been for over 60 years. SO WHERE ARE THE JOBS? Giving the rich more money does not make them hire. GREED IS BAD, not just morally.
@Mahayani Definitely. It's very easy to show or argue that greed is bad in more than only moral terms. It can be proven mathematically that greed is very unhealthy for any society.
For fuck sakes! Demands should have been worked on from the get go! Many political experts have been saying this all along. It's great that you are protesting, but what the fuck do you want!
@theman4130 wrote : "... It's great that you are protesting, but what the fuck do you want!"
Demands should've been coming from the start and they were! Ever hear or read of the "Jersey Girls", who're part of "9/11 Families" and were active BEFORE Oct. 7, 2011, due to 9/11, fe? They weren't alone to have spoken up very promptly, either.
And I pretty much wholly agreed with D.-Calif. Rep. Barbara Lee's official opposition following 9/11, tho not wholly with her current views about Obama.
As much as it is important to demand for single payer health care or eliminate student loans as well as increasing public jobs, I think these demands should be made along with other demands like decreasing military budgets and signficant decrease of all aid for Israel. U.S. is aiding Israel more than rest of countries in this world combine. WE need those money to fix the problem HERE!!!!
@unorthodoxtrotsky How about we stop all foreign aid? Hosni Mubarak said it best when it comes to foreign aid 'Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people in a rich country, and giving it to the rich people in a poor country' I agree with you about Israel, but I think we should stop all foreign aid from the government. There is plenty of independent aid/NGO/charities that help out in other countries. The Saudi regime is even more brutal than the Zionists, death to all of em
Oh I am definitely with you. Ultimately I will support for ending all foreign aid. But I want to be more realistic. We never had movement like this in the States for long time and this is definitely a momentum. I don't think we can go from being a regime that aids all the repressive reactionary regimes in the world to society that ends all the foreign aids. Especially when one consider the fact that we have corporate parties running the show.
I think objective for now should be what we can establish in maximum. And that's reduce the significant amount of foreign aid to all those repressive regimes. I think ending foreign aid entirely is more realistically possible if people make significant control of this society but we are not even close to some of European countries where they had working class parties. And some of them were eventually inclining more toward the interests of capital.
@unorthodoxtrotsky True, but most of the so called "labor" and "socialists" of Europe are mostly a sham. Look at Greece, they are ran by a so called "socialist" regime and all that has been on the table is austerity. We need to rethink the entire political process because as of now, worldwide: the game is rigged
I definitely agree. That was my point when I wrote "some of them were eventually inclining more toward the interests of capital." But I think establishing working class party itself is indication of progress considering we never had one. The issue is how working class as well as rank and file union members interact with party who's class basis is organized labor and unions. I think their leaning for neoliberalism and austerity for 1% shows the limitation of social democracy
This is why I divided objective from ultimate goal and what can be maximum in current situation. I chose reform because I felt that this country is still backward when it comes to having militant movement in grass root level. But you are right about the fact that we "need to rethink the entire political process" because propaganda of "progressive" is useless when corporations have greater power to influence parties and parties rely on these same parasites at same time.
@unorthodoxtrotsky Yeah I see what you mean, progressive reform will do nothing but prolong this system's inevitable downfall. I see what you mean tho, society is not ready for a revolution, because the revolution is not only physical but mental. Revolution today, could mean fascist dictatorship tomorrow. We need to continue to inform the public about the true enemies and debunk those who seek to shift the blame on minorities etc.
It's also important to note that people can become more radicalized by actual struggles. And actual struggles can be mobilized when there are actual demands. I think it is also very important to note that even if demands are met, those demands aren't going to be enough and that mobilization must continue to win the greater demands. But people's confidence can only be elevated when demands are made and won.
I think what OWS activists are concern about is the possibility of demoralizing the participants of Occupy movement through actual accomplishment of concrete demands. Many don't want this to be just another "negotiation" that will cause people to return home after demands are met. But the fact of the matter is ongoing struggles without any accomplishment of any demands may demoralize many people as well. While activists may stay militant, desperate people can get exhausted.
What one should resist at this stage is precisely such a quick translation of the energy of the protest into a set of concrete pragmatic demands. Yes, the protests did create a vacuum-- a vacuum in the field of hegemonic ideology, and time is needed to fill this vacuum in a proper way, as it is a pregnant vacuum, an opening for the truly new.
Paul, OWS is not making demands because they do not expect the current government to do anything. OWS is creating a new system that will eventually replace the current corrupt system. The federal government is much too powerful and needs to be cut down to size by giving states more power.
Let's cut the Gordion Knot and KISS. We need an infrastructure bank that does two things, resolves the bad debts and issues contracts for infrastructure. We finance it with agency loans funded by agency bonds sold to banks to absorb the cash held on deposits. Check out our rebuild America plan at mikeballantine2012 org
If that's the case why are more democrats including the ones that come on this network still talking about putting in another trillion dollars in stimulus?
lol... couldn't disagree more with this guy 1) arrest some bankers and jail them for fraud 2) outlaw corporate lobbying, 3) end bank control of our economy.
Don't make specific demands. Make them propose how they are going to solve the problems. The demands should not define very much further than: Make the system just, representative, and transparent, with accountability and recourse for all. Let them propose how while we say when they have done enough.
@blaavass "genius, more spending and...debt is the solution. Great."
You should look into national income accounting, a very basic aspect of macroeconomics.
Imagine an economy with only 2 people: Bob and Sally. If Bob net spends (ie runs a deficit) then that means Sally is net saving (ie has surplus).
Macroecon examines two sectors: the gov't and the non-govt. Essentially, if the gov't runs a surplus, then private debt increases. Right now, we need less private debt, not less public debt.
@jstncbllr Sorry, but both Bob and Sally are broke. Let's say they are the two only persons living on an island and they are fishing for a living. They have been taking too much holiday lately (consumer spending) so both of them have no more fish stored. They will have to get back to work and replenish their savings or start starving. If they create a currency of sea shells or start doing accounting, the reality won't change. Borrowing fish from the neighbour island (China) won't help either.
@blaavass My analogy was flawed, but you've made it more so I fear :/
The point is: imagine a closed economy w/ two parties; all transactions are between those two. Thus one person's spending is the other person's income.
The US economy can be similarly divided into "govt" and "non-govt". It's not an symmetric relationship because gov't is the sole *supplier* of the currency.
Gov't spending adds financial assets to non-govt. Taxes destroy non-govt assets. So a gov't surplus is often a bad thing.
@jstncbllr I guess we won't agree on this. Do you see that there is a great difference in Bob and Sally's wealth if they pay each other seashells for doing each other services like cutting each others hair, compared to paying each other to work on increasing their productivity in catching fish? The latter will provide them with the opportunity to actually start doing each others services without starving. Modern economists just stare on the GDP numbers without thinking through what's in it.
@jstncbllr Let's say you put one more person on the island, Robin, and he acts like a government. He can tax Bob and Sally and spend their money. He can buy fish from them, eat it and and provide some services in return, massage now and then. He will also pay them for building some infrastructure etc. By the way, Robin is extremely wasteful since he has not worked for the money himself, and he has gone deep into fish-debt to the neighbour island "China".
@jstncbllr The reason for Robin having borrowed from China is that he is paying Bob and Sally to to services instead of fishing. Of course, Robin is never fishing himself since he is the goverment. Do you see that Robin is a burden on the island's economy? China observes that the other island has depleted their stock of fish and their are not focused on fishing. China gets worried that the other island will not be able to repay the borrowed fish.
@jstncbllr At the same time China don't want any of the other island's services like a massage or a haircut. China decides to stop lending any more fish to the other island and Rob and Sally starts to starve (lower living standard). However, Robin comes up with a great idea. He starts infrastructure spending by paying Rob and Sally with seashells for building many extra bridges on the island and for making the roads extra nice. Do you think the island becomes more wealth or poorer of this?
@jstncbllr Without telling anyone Robin even goes down at the beach and collects more seashells so he can keep paying Rob and Sally, who becomes filthy rich on seashells, but still starves since they spend so little time on fishing. Hm, the fish prices are starting to pick up on the island too, since there is a lot of sea shell money competing for a very limited amount of fish.
@jstncbllr Do you think Bob and Sally should kick Robin off the island, bite the bullet, underconsume, devote all their time towards fishing again and do work that will increase their productivity in fishing, and replenish their stock of fish? Do you think they then would be able to repay their debt to China? Do you think they in this way will eventually be much more wealthy with nicer houses, roads and bridges? Or should they rather put their trust in Robin's stimulus program....?
@blaavass Yes, it matters how we allocate our resources. There's lots of debate on how to do that, but not the topic I'm on.
China has a lot of US bonds simply because we import a lot of their crap (paying them in $US). The US doesn't *need* them to buy US bonds.
The US can service any debt denominated in $US. It cannot default.
Your original point was "more debt is bad". You should distinguish between public/private debt. Gov't spending = private saving. A gov't surplus increases private debt.
@jstncbllr Governments have defaulted again and again throughout history, either by not being able to pay or through inflation. Wonder which way US will go? Your idea seems to be that the FED can print all the money they want and buy up all of the US debt that others don't want for zero interest rate? This will make (chinese?) private sector rich and it doesn't matter that the goverment has more debt? It seems you should prepare for a tough awakening some time in the rather near future...
@blaavass Governments that have defaulted in the past did not have currency sovereignty, they had convertible and/or fixed-rate currencies. Argentina for example was pegged to $US. Greece is similar: it's a *user* of the euro, not the *supplier*. Big difference. Gov'ts w/ a sovereign currency *cannot* default.
US debt issuance is a monetary tool that influences the fed funds interest rate. That's all it does. The US does not need to issue debt to "finance" the govt.
@jstncbllr I obviously don't agree that the FED don't need to issue debt to finance the US government. I know there are all sorts of wishful reasoning around this just like in the dotcom bubble, the housing bubble and now in the US debt bubble. Things always look fantastic from inside the bubble, but all bubbles come to an end. That's the awakening. I guess we'll not be able to agree here and the coming few years will anyway reveal who of us that got it right. Thanks for the debate:-)
@blaavass Economic health is a matter of real world circumstances: jobs, production, etc. The debt, per se, doesn't tell you much.
For the US gov't, money is not scarce. Real resources are. Worrying that the US gov't will "run out" of money is like worrying that a stadium will run out of points to put on its scoreboard.
This is how a soft currency works. It's not opinion or ideology, it's simply the nature of a modern monetary system.
Read the link I gave, it's a bit long, but lays it all out
@jstncbllr You are literally saying that US can print its way to prosperity since they have their debt in own currency and that the debt don't count. I would recommend you to read some austrian economics or read the piece on coming hyperinflation by Shadowstats(dot)com. I don't worry that US govt will run out of money, on the contrary, I think they will keep printing and borrowing. What I worry is that the US dollar will loose its value and that it will start to do so in a disorderly manner.
@jstncbllr The article you reference is to me hilarious. The author of the article, Warren Mosler, belongs to what is called Chartalism or Modern Monetary Theory. To me, the essence of the article is that fiat money represents a "new era" defying gravity laws and that a goverment with its own currency can spend whatever they want. The effect of the government deficits is that private sector will get rich, building up their financial assets.
@jstncbllr Also, Mosler's law is "There is no financial crisis so deep that a sufficiently large tax cut or spending increase cannot deal with it." Well, to me this sounds exactly like statements under the dot-com bubble and the housing bubble; "house prices can never fall". The natural conclusion will be that the US should run wild deficits and employ everyone by the government, give them good salaries, and everyone will be rich and the country prosperous. To me, this logic falls on itself.
@jstncbllr My views are consistent with this article by Robert P. Murphy: mises(dot)org/daily/5260/The-UpsideDown-World-of-MMT; which concludes "The MMT worldview is intriguing, if only because it is so different from even the way conventional Keynesians think about fiscal and monetary policy. Unfortunately, it seems to me to be dead wrong. The MMTers concentrate on accounting tautologies that do not mean what they think."
@jstncbllr I will recommend you to read "How an economy grows and why it crashes" by Peter D. Schiff and "Meltdown: A Free-Market Look at Why the Stock Market Collapsed, the Economy Tanked, and Government Bailouts Will Make Things Worse" by Tom Woods. Both books are easy to read and understand.
@blaavass To repeat: given a trade deficit, it is *impossible* for both private and gov't sectors to run surpluses.
This is why the distinction between private debt and gov't debt is important. Currently we have a big trade deficit, a lot of idle resources (unemployment) because of low demand, and a desire to save (pay off debt) in the private sector.
If the gov't reduces its deficit, the private sector *necessarily* will take on more debt. Debt can't hurt the govt. But it can hurt people.
@jstncbllr I will also recommend to watch clips of Niall Ferguson: /user/ContrarianInvestor#p/u/3/loUUVhibkOQ; Peter Schiff: /watch?v=EgMclXX5msc; Marc Faber: /watch?v=H0sS6a9RW2E
@blaavass I'm familiar with the Austrian school. I find it to be more philosophical than reality-based. Most proponents are anti-govt ideologues. There's plenty of discussion between Austrians/MMTers out there, I won't go into it here. For more on Murphy see:
bit. ly/uPPDOc
P Schiff is a boob.
I watched some of the Faber. He conflates private/public debt (typical). Minsky's theory of instability is deeper than his fixation solely on interest rates.
@blaavass "[MMT] conclusion [is] that the US should run wild deficits"
No, read deeper. This is a common mischaracterization.
MMT acknowledges that deficits can sometimes cause inflation. But it dispels the myth that a "balanced budget" is always desirable *for its own sake*. Overall gov't spending should be based on current levels of private savings and investment, and the trade deficit.
Given a trade deficit, it is *impossible* for both private and gov't sectors to run surpluses.
@jstncbllr I guess we won't agree on this, but thanks for the debate. To me, Austrian Economics makes perfectly sense in understanding the real economy and I have discovered that it is austrians that have actually been able again and again to predict what is going to happen in the economy.
the best way to create jobs is to start massive infrastructure projects like the North American Water and Power Alliance. Estimated to create 6 million jobs. The only way to fund it is to End the FED and replace it with a national system of credit through the treasury.
Occupy Wall Street better hires Bob Pollin as Chief Economic Advisor (C.E.A ^.^) before they get caught up by fuckers such as Jeffrey Sachs (nicked The Butcher of Tharsis or The Butcher for short).
Jeffrey Sachs (The Butcher) was already addressing OWS in NYC using "the human microphone" (hearing a human crowd repeating The Butcher's utterances loudly was deeply traumatic for my anarchist friends -- they are now incontinent, traumatized for life).
i don't like bob pollin too much. he's too much talk. this and that, blablabla. 16 minutes to tell us what we already know and to state his opinion, which basically amounts to "well, we could either do this or that. what we should ACTUALLY do, that i don't know either. lol"?
End the fed already..... btw pal, Private sector doesn't want to to invest because of the political instability Obama has caused and this federal gov has caused. I haven't hired nor am I planning on expanding to another location like we were talking about with all this tax talk going on. I'm in coast mode right now and don't plan on changing until see stability... why give our tax to gov who will only piss it away. Keep your greedy paws off my labor criminals. I am not your slave
As far as demands go I'd only have one: the Financial elite willingly surrenders ALL of it's power to the people. We redistribute not the money, but the POWER. Call me back when that happens.
And the big subject: how do we want our economy to work? Who owns the means of production and how do the people benefit from the economy. We certainly don't want to continue to be slaves to the oligarchs.
We need these basic assurances especially since corporate needs to be more competitive and is renigging on their benefit promises to their employees. We cannot go through life and find out that our employer has folded and they don't have any money for our pensions, etc. I don't think 401k's are a solution, this was a plan that was put in place for Wall Sts benefit and profits and as we see now most people have lost their investments.
The existing system that you promote is seriously broken. We need to create a system that serves US, the 99%. My suggestion is that we make our basic operating principle be that each American has, as a birthright, a share of the land and resources they need to be self sustaining. I believe that we have PAID IN FULL for America through bailouts & decades of usurious interest. We no longer need this system of wage slavery. We need land and resources, not jobs.
Rothschild Bank of London, Warburg Bank of Hamburg, Rothschild Bank of Berlin, Lehman Brothers of New York, Lazard Brothers of Paris, Kuhn Loeb Bank of New York, Israel Moses Seif Banks of Italy, Goldman, Sachs of New York, Warburg Bank of Amsterdam, Chase Manhattan Bank of New York
Want to build infrastructure for clean, green energy & efficiency? Tax carbon. This serves multiple purposes: Brings gov't revenue; protects our environment by weaning us from fossil fuels; & incentivizes green energy development & efficiency improvements. Win-Win-Win.
Eh, on Robert Pollin. Address LOANING MONEY AGAIN AS OPPOSED TO CONTINUE THE FED'S PONZI SCHEME to Small Businesses. Industrial manufacturing is dead. He assesses it but with nothing new suggested. There is no safe deal for a business or the bank's investing.
Ironically, sitting money is still money and no one makes money on still money. He does point out that it is the large mega corporate banks that have access to the money. Solar Energy was killed by Reagan in 1981 so his example is a decoy.
2) Is the lack of participation and representation of the 99% in fixing the problems of this country because of number 1.
3) The lack of accountability of the 1% due to 1 and 2.
We want the 1% to have 1% of the decision making power.
Once power is restored to the people we can start cooperating and arguing and looking for solutions to the may other problems we face instead begging the 1%'s permission to do things that make sense.
The one and only 'demand' or 'goal' should be that the POTUS, the Senate, the House of Representatives, the SCOTUS, et al, go back to following the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and keep Big Brother out of the lives of its citizens
Begin with repealing the Patriot Act, the TSA, the DHS, the EPA & other agencies & regulations that are detrimental to the common citizen
ermmmm, you 'do' realize I said nothing (yet) about private property, right ? Or are you one of those Canadians that, like many US liberals, attempt to put words into others mouths or statements?
Just as you infer that my posting is from Fox ^_~
Surely you're not that lonely and are able to do better?
0 - FORCE MAJEURE! – Call Void All Bankster Bogus Derivative Debts! Because paying off these trough fraud induced debts have become a technical and practical impossibility.
FROM: THE REAL PROBLEMS & SOLUTIONS BY YOURI CARMA, 29 December 2008, (Blogs.Reuters – The Great Debate)
Nothing Occupy Wall Street can accomplish can be met without a constitutional change, and that will only happen with a revolution. And we all know nothing will happen.
US has a debt problem which has come about by profligate spending of the federal government. And this guy's demands (solutions) is more spending. US debt is already 100% of GDP; when does he think there will be enough spending? (However, I do agree with him about letting the banks fail).
@lordblazer Please think about the fact that the US must not get into debt further, regardless of how worthy government programs are perceived. There are real repercussions for every citizen when the debt becomes unmanageable. Take a look at Greece. The US will default on its debt when the rest of the world decides that it's no longer willing to accept US dollars which has no inherent value. The answer to your question: increasing government bureaucracy, two wars etc.
@jonesr227 Greece defaulted because they do not have control over their own currency. That is not the case with the US. Generally speaking, countries that control their own currency cannot default. The fundamental mistake a lot of people make is in assuming that the US government "spends" money, and therefore has to stay within a budget. But this is wrong. The US government ISSUES money, and can do so (if need be) indefinitely. It can run up as large a debt as it wants and cannot default.
@GohanMH1 During the downturn of 1921, government did not step in and the recovery was quick . However, if government intervenes a la Roosevelt and Obama then the recovery is protracted.
the recovery was quick because households were less indebted. with housing prices down 40% and gloomy expectations private sector is not likely to spend, be it for investment or consumption. there has to be a debt jubilee or dramatic spike in exports to get this going, imho
@kawaiigardiner Here's a tip, try never to buy anything on credit. Houses, a business and an education are the exceptions, but even those are better bought cash.
@1971SuperLead Agreed. if I can't afford something I either save up or decide not to buy it - to be in debt is to sign ones life into slavery. Far too many people are propelled by instant gratification of having a shiny cool new toy than standing back and firstly asking whether it is necessary to have it in the first place and if so whether it is a good idea to borrow for that said item. I look at the private debt in NZ and it is unsustainable but few are willing to admit that cold hard reality.
@kawaiigardiner Long ago I realized that toys don't bring me much happiness. Money buys food, shelter, transportation and a computor, and that's about it. The rest is best used for freedom. Let your money work for you.
Oh, never invest in anything you don't fully understand, e.g. stocks, bonds, annuities, etc. Never trust anyone with your money. Never own a lot of money. Always use it to buy real estate, antiques, ammo, etc.
Lastly, never live alone. At least have a cat, so life has purpose.
this talk is all very sterile and bloodless...it doesn't begin to address the fact that the 1% are settling their crimes out of court and returning to work, nor of the collusion that's been fostering this super-villain bullshit.
The biggest corporations are getting cash for free thanks to the Federal Reserve's magic printing press. The problem is that when the currency becomes completely devalued and ends up dropping near zero, then the corporations will have very little value. The cash reserves the corporations are saving up will be useless.
It's not Demands, it's Goals -- please stop using the language the Corporate Media wants us to use. Demands can be decapitated too easily, goals are deeper and gain more traction. Thanks for covering OWS and helping to bring thoughts to the table.
I will take it a step further and say that demands makes the protesters look like criminals holding a hostage, and asking for some kind of ransom. It just doesn't suit my style to hear that word. Goals is the perfect word of choice. Corporate media knows exactly what its doing.
While Bob Polin made good short term solutions, we need deeper structural changes to our political system than Bob Pollin suggests. What's going to stop the 1% from using its wealth to corrupt our political system? None of his suggestions would change that.
The occupy wallstreet movement needs to be a movement that relies on taking the public areas back and creating our own general assemblies. We cannot rely on corrupt institutions for demands because they serve the elites.
Fuck the Federal government. End it. End the welfare system. Teachers should make 20k a year and rent apartments in the local community like they did in the 1920s. End the Federal Reserve, end the department of education, end the wars, end the empire by closing ALL military bases. Education in the USA is Indoctrination. Let the weak and dumb die. The USA is controlled by parasites - those that live off the government and those the WORK FOR THE GOVERNMENT. I look forward to the complete collapse.
@HeavyMP You're right. The U.S. is controlled by parasites. It's called the entitlement class of Corporate CEO's, board of directors, bankers, attorneys, brokers & politicians; & the idle rich & their trust fund brats; & riding those coat tails are the celebrities, spin doctors & upper management of organizations of true consequence. They gorge themselves at the public trough w/o having contributed and suck the profit marrow out of legitimate businesses. They're bloated leaches about to burst.
Protect the Public Sector? That is a terrible idea. The government would do well to destroy itself. But they won't ever cut the public sector. Obama will "protect" the public employees even at the expense of the private. We must reject the notion that government is the source of wealth and jobs. I don't worship God or Government. Analyze reality
At least the government is somewhat democratic (however corrupt and subservient to corporations it may be). The private sector is completely totalitarian. You want to abolish our only democratic institution, so that the private sector may do whatever it pleases. In other words, corporations would become the state, with their own private military.
@JackofOneTrade567 Okay. The government is not democratic. Then lets make corporations democratic institutions. Let the workers control the means of production. Or is that too radical?
@woostopalypse Corporations are already democratic institutions. Your money IS your vote. Communism is a failed and draconian system, so don't even start with that.
@woostopalypse Influence over what? Companies need to keep their customers satisfied, or else they lose money. They may have money, but their customers have numbers, not to mention companies need a continuous flow of money from said customers. Govt is the exact opposite - the more unhappy their citizens, the more money they make.
Corporate communism doesn't exist, it's contradictory. You're thinking of fascism, where big business and the govt collude to oppress citizens.
@JackofOneTrade567 Those with the most money will have influence over the entire political system. By bribery, buying out competitors, rewriting laws, etc... What you are describing is only a form of consumerism. You honestly think consumerism is the best form of democracy? Civil Rights, Women rights, environmental laws id not come through consumerism. People getting together and protesting for changes is democracy!
@woostopalypse Your money is your vote. If a company pollutes or discriminates, don't buy their products. How is that not democracy? You're right, those with the most money can influence govt the most. You're again making my argument for me. If you want a fair and prosperous economy that encourages innovation, get rid of govt. Democracy though govt is a very weak, if not no-existent, form of democracy. It requires the least amount of knowledge and effort, and yields the least favorable results.
@JackofOneTrade567 Your ideas are too "micro". You see the trees but not the forest. It's the typical free-market fundamentalist, fallacy of composition viewpoint.
Markets have their own set of failures. Externalities, monopoly, information asymmetry, unequal bargaining power, etc. Markets left alone can easily produce results that are not in the public interest.
@jstncbllr wrote : "... There is no free market fairy."
Balony. Free market is the way that Wall Street et al work ; NOT fair market, but freely, neoliberally doing what they wish, and, so far, they're ahead.
Whether it's free market or not depends on what each person considers this to be. Some people might use some arbitrary rules, or maybe not so much arbitrary, but still applying limits to freedom, freely committed acts. Who pays for wars? Taxpayers? Who profits? Wall Street et al, freely
1 a small imaginary being of human form that has magical powers, esp. a female one."
Guy, by invoking the "free market fairy", what I'm saying is that free market fundamentalism is utopian thinking. Markets have their purpose, but are far from a panacea. I'm sure you agree.
@jstncbllr I never promoted free market anything. I know what free market business is today. It's why, fe, many US jobs have been offshored. It's also why the H-1B program was created by Pres. GHW Bush, a program for importing foreigners for hi-tech jobs in the US, where US citizens and legal residents would be increasingly, while gradually, denied job opportunities and which caused some of us, including myself, to become totally bankrupted.
@mikecorbeil I'm not sure why you're telling me this. I never suggested you promoted anything at all, much less laissez faire markets. I told some other guy that the "Free Market Fairy" does not exist, to which you interjected "balony" (sic). I think you simply missed my point. The dictionary definition of "fairy" was meant to clarify.
You might want to re-read my comments (as well as your comment agreeing with me two weeks ago).
@mikecorbeil You just gave an example of govt intervention and then blamed it on the free market, and you call me moronic. Way to put your foot in your mouth.
What stands out in my mind is, "Can 2 wrongs make anything right?" I do not believe that it will change much in the way things are run. It is sad, but Man will only lead men to disastrous outcomes! The question is: "In what man could we put our trust in?" Do people not realize how hypocritical America and other nations are? "In God We Trust?" But does anyone know what THAT means? Do not put your trust in earthling man, for in his ways he cannot lead himself! More so an entire nation!
sweetnseksi 3 months ago
If we wanna be more effective about the "occupy" movement, remember this at election time. Ask the running candidates: "Do you support or are you against the intentions of the Occupy movement?" If the say they are against it, or they use their pre-briefed doublespeak skills and sound optimistically, but still don't really give any real answer, or even if they don't replay at all, then DO NOT elected that running candidate. Let's getting their greedy asses out of office!
HanafudaMASTER 3 months ago
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Here’s a lesson in economics for OWS. Explain to the “99%” that they are actually in the 5% of richest people on the planet. Then take their wealth and redistribute it to the 95% of the world that is poorer than them. See how they feel about wealth redistribution then.
RoboSlater 3 months ago
halcyon0830 3 months ago
@halcyon0830 Citizens United was a great decision. Bribery is already a crime. Politics only functions with money. Patriot Act should always be re-examined periodically, but not repealed in toto. term limits is a good idea. Ending war isn't logical. Decriminalizing drugs is wise. prosecuting Wall Street criminals is a good idea. The other stuff is weird.
RoboSlater 3 months ago
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FREEDOM is ROB by ELITE CRIMINALS
GOVERNMENT = CRIMINALS IN CONTROL
kopellhinex 3 months ago
Here is one: When I loan (deposit) money to my bank, I get around 0.00001% in interest. Now, when the bank loans me money, I have to pay 15%-30% interest.
Of course, what I'm suggesting implies radical changes in the financial system, but if banks loaned at 1% and gave more than 0.00001% they would still make money. Speculation and exotic financial products need to go.
81PARADIS81 4 months ago
How do we deal with doctors fucking us over just to keep making a profit? They dint want to cure problems they want to maintain them.
Jioxer 4 months ago
Talk doesn't change much, it just makes people comfy."One day....everything will be better....just cast your vote! Make a change..! Look, I held up a sign, so I'm validated! I don't have to DO anything now!"
Talk is cheap. If talk leads to action then great, but this stupid crisis has been going on for years because no one has "done" anything.
Start boycotting,sitting in, and creating larger protests that urge NOT PAYING the "pigs" and you might have something but protest then spending...nah.
Decapoe 4 months ago
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Who Owns and Operates the Federal Reserve Banks?
Rothschild Bank of London, Warburg Bank of Hamburg, Rothschild Bank of Berlin, Lehman Brothers of New York, Lazard Brothers of Paris, Kuhn Loeb Bank of New York, Israel Moses Seif Banks of Italy, Goldman, Sachs of New York, Warburg Bank of Amsterdam, Chase Manhattan Bank of New York
ISRAEL DID 911
ISRAEL DID 911
ISRAEL DID 911
Wrothchild 4 months ago
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mikecorbeil 4 months ago
@Wrothchild I removed the spam flag on your post, but when you say, "Israel did 911", you illustrate that you've done little study and possibly are associated with some fanatical cult.
Israel doesn't control Washington, regardless of how much some people pretend that the opposite is true. NONE of these people present sufficient proof, and until there is sufficient and necessary proof, learn to properly study, investigate, question, and communicate.
Bias is real, but not the needed proof.
mikecorbeil 4 months ago
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I guess I missed all of you posting intellegent comment on Keynesian Economics. It seems the Republicans are trashing this well proven theory, because none of them probably understand it. Only the truly ignorant believe in Supply Side or Trickle Down Economics.
Mahayani 4 months ago
@Mahayani I removed the spam flag that someone placed on your post because I don't see anything wrong with it. Too many jerks go around flagging other people's posts or comments as spam ; totally ridiculous and criticizable conduct by any Web user!
You surely know more about Keynesian Economics than I do, but while I've read some negative criticisms against it, I've also read some positive words about it at globalresearch[dot]ca.
There's nothing wrong with your post as far as I can see.
mikecorbeil 4 months ago
@mikecorbeil Thank you Mike, I am still waiting for jobs and economic growth proposal from all of those duped by the Koch brothers and Americans for Prosperity. The Republican House has offered nothing for jobs, only tax cuts for the rich. Taxes are already lower than they have been for over 60 years. SO WHERE ARE THE JOBS? Giving the rich more money does not make them hire. GREED IS BAD, not just morally.
Mahayani 4 months ago
@Mahayani Thumbs up!..."For the love of money is the root of all evil"...1 Timothy 6:10
"Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will."...Frederick Douglas
NotNearlyNormalProd 4 months ago
@Mahayani Yah, because you're not greedy. rofl.
JackofOneTrade567 4 months ago
@Mahayani Definitely. It's very easy to show or argue that greed is bad in more than only moral terms. It can be proven mathematically that greed is very unhealthy for any society.
mikecorbeil 2 months ago
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Mahayani 4 months ago
Excellent interview! Thank you, Paul Jay and Bob Pollin. Too many people don't understand these points.
pjkilmer 4 months ago
For fuck sakes! Demands should have been worked on from the get go! Many political experts have been saying this all along. It's great that you are protesting, but what the fuck do you want!
theman4130 4 months ago
@theman4130 wrote : "... It's great that you are protesting, but what the fuck do you want!"
Demands should've been coming from the start and they were! Ever hear or read of the "Jersey Girls", who're part of "9/11 Families" and were active BEFORE Oct. 7, 2011, due to 9/11, fe? They weren't alone to have spoken up very promptly, either.
And I pretty much wholly agreed with D.-Calif. Rep. Barbara Lee's official opposition following 9/11, tho not wholly with her current views about Obama.
mikecorbeil 4 months ago
@theman4130 wrote, I repeat : "... It's great that you are protesting, but what the fuck do you want!"
What do you prefer to do, sit on the couch?
mikecorbeil 4 months ago
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i DEMAND A RESOURCE BASED ECONOMY
Bluedash3r 4 months ago
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why do you keep interviewing this guy? All this guy ever says is keeping printing more money.
zephyrsimon 4 months ago
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zephyrsimon 4 months ago
One demand, very simple... end government corruption in all it's forms. Do not complicate it, please.
usexoticsltd 4 months ago
If state and local governments are the biggest employer in the country, then I think you've identified the economy's problem.
rctube1958 4 months ago
As much as it is important to demand for single payer health care or eliminate student loans as well as increasing public jobs, I think these demands should be made along with other demands like decreasing military budgets and signficant decrease of all aid for Israel. U.S. is aiding Israel more than rest of countries in this world combine. WE need those money to fix the problem HERE!!!!
unorthodoxtrotsky 4 months ago
@unorthodoxtrotsky How about we stop all foreign aid? Hosni Mubarak said it best when it comes to foreign aid 'Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people in a rich country, and giving it to the rich people in a poor country' I agree with you about Israel, but I think we should stop all foreign aid from the government. There is plenty of independent aid/NGO/charities that help out in other countries. The Saudi regime is even more brutal than the Zionists, death to all of em
MadXMax187 4 months ago
@MadXMax187
Oh I am definitely with you. Ultimately I will support for ending all foreign aid. But I want to be more realistic. We never had movement like this in the States for long time and this is definitely a momentum. I don't think we can go from being a regime that aids all the repressive reactionary regimes in the world to society that ends all the foreign aids. Especially when one consider the fact that we have corporate parties running the show.
unorthodoxtrotsky 4 months ago
@MadXMax187
I think objective for now should be what we can establish in maximum. And that's reduce the significant amount of foreign aid to all those repressive regimes. I think ending foreign aid entirely is more realistically possible if people make significant control of this society but we are not even close to some of European countries where they had working class parties. And some of them were eventually inclining more toward the interests of capital.
unorthodoxtrotsky 4 months ago
@unorthodoxtrotsky True, but most of the so called "labor" and "socialists" of Europe are mostly a sham. Look at Greece, they are ran by a so called "socialist" regime and all that has been on the table is austerity. We need to rethink the entire political process because as of now, worldwide: the game is rigged
MadXMax187 4 months ago
@MadXMax187
I definitely agree. That was my point when I wrote "some of them were eventually inclining more toward the interests of capital." But I think establishing working class party itself is indication of progress considering we never had one. The issue is how working class as well as rank and file union members interact with party who's class basis is organized labor and unions. I think their leaning for neoliberalism and austerity for 1% shows the limitation of social democracy
unorthodoxtrotsky 4 months ago
@MadXMax187
This is why I divided objective from ultimate goal and what can be maximum in current situation. I chose reform because I felt that this country is still backward when it comes to having militant movement in grass root level. But you are right about the fact that we "need to rethink the entire political process" because propaganda of "progressive" is useless when corporations have greater power to influence parties and parties rely on these same parasites at same time.
unorthodoxtrotsky 4 months ago
@unorthodoxtrotsky Yeah I see what you mean, progressive reform will do nothing but prolong this system's inevitable downfall. I see what you mean tho, society is not ready for a revolution, because the revolution is not only physical but mental. Revolution today, could mean fascist dictatorship tomorrow. We need to continue to inform the public about the true enemies and debunk those who seek to shift the blame on minorities etc.
MadXMax187 4 months ago
It's also important to note that people can become more radicalized by actual struggles. And actual struggles can be mobilized when there are actual demands. I think it is also very important to note that even if demands are met, those demands aren't going to be enough and that mobilization must continue to win the greater demands. But people's confidence can only be elevated when demands are made and won.
unorthodoxtrotsky 4 months ago
I think what OWS activists are concern about is the possibility of demoralizing the participants of Occupy movement through actual accomplishment of concrete demands. Many don't want this to be just another "negotiation" that will cause people to return home after demands are met. But the fact of the matter is ongoing struggles without any accomplishment of any demands may demoralize many people as well. While activists may stay militant, desperate people can get exhausted.
unorthodoxtrotsky 4 months ago
What one should resist at this stage is precisely such a quick translation of the energy of the protest into a set of concrete pragmatic demands. Yes, the protests did create a vacuum-- a vacuum in the field of hegemonic ideology, and time is needed to fill this vacuum in a proper way, as it is a pregnant vacuum, an opening for the truly new.
BoStevoD 4 months ago
Paul, OWS is not making demands because they do not expect the current government to do anything. OWS is creating a new system that will eventually replace the current corrupt system. The federal government is much too powerful and needs to be cut down to size by giving states more power.
Devilock79 4 months ago
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emotionalinvalid 4 months ago
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emotionalinvalid 4 months ago
1. perp walk the criminals of wall street/washington
2. get wall street lobby money out of washington
3. END THE FED
4. Term limits
thats just a start...that would fix ALOT
1x93cm 4 months ago
anyone notice 6:06 black classroom and 6:16 white classroom with one black kid lol
djmx82 4 months ago
Let's cut the Gordion Knot and KISS. We need an infrastructure bank that does two things, resolves the bad debts and issues contracts for infrastructure. We finance it with agency loans funded by agency bonds sold to banks to absorb the cash held on deposits. Check out our rebuild America plan at mikeballantine2012 org
McamelyneII 4 months ago
Search Pastebin for "New Common Sense" - this should be the demands on thr 99%
wyrwich 4 months ago
public banking as suggested by publicbankinginstitute DOTT org' has a solution to the issue behind the issue.
"Returning to the Constitution" will not solve the banking fraud nor the national debt.
Also, declare fraudulent all "debts" owe to the Fed owners.
AOZXRAY 4 months ago
3:08, The education system, the health care and the protection of the ecology are very important.
Oh yeah, tax more the 'upper strata'. Rough the banks up.
dewinthemorning 4 months ago
"The stimulus worked exactly as predicted."
If that's the case why are more democrats including the ones that come on this network still talking about putting in another trillion dollars in stimulus?
wolfengheist 4 months ago
@wolfengheist he was referring to that particular point of the stimulus.. however, stimulus won't work if banks sit on the money
brianestoll 4 months ago
"The green jobs proposals are working."
Ah where is that?
"WE need more infrastructure programs"
We had them during the Clinton tne Bush eras yet still unemployment going up
This PERI guy is a total ignoramus.
wolfengheist 4 months ago
lol... couldn't disagree more with this guy 1) arrest some bankers and jail them for fraud 2) outlaw corporate lobbying, 3) end bank control of our economy.
etzel33 4 months ago
Ive heard nothing but pure BS from every single PERI segment on TRN
fight2Bfree 4 months ago
Don't make specific demands. Make them propose how they are going to solve the problems. The demands should not define very much further than: Make the system just, representative, and transparent, with accountability and recourse for all. Let them propose how while we say when they have done enough.
ginesdepasamonte 4 months ago
What a genius, more spending and going even deeper into debt is the solution. Great.
blaavass 4 months ago
@blaavass "genius, more spending and...debt is the solution. Great."
You should look into national income accounting, a very basic aspect of macroeconomics.
Imagine an economy with only 2 people: Bob and Sally. If Bob net spends (ie runs a deficit) then that means Sally is net saving (ie has surplus).
Macroecon examines two sectors: the gov't and the non-govt. Essentially, if the gov't runs a surplus, then private debt increases. Right now, we need less private debt, not less public debt.
jstncbllr 4 months ago
@jstncbllr Sorry, but both Bob and Sally are broke. Let's say they are the two only persons living on an island and they are fishing for a living. They have been taking too much holiday lately (consumer spending) so both of them have no more fish stored. They will have to get back to work and replenish their savings or start starving. If they create a currency of sea shells or start doing accounting, the reality won't change. Borrowing fish from the neighbour island (China) won't help either.
blaavass 4 months ago
@blaavass My analogy was flawed, but you've made it more so I fear :/
The point is: imagine a closed economy w/ two parties; all transactions are between those two. Thus one person's spending is the other person's income.
The US economy can be similarly divided into "govt" and "non-govt". It's not an symmetric relationship because gov't is the sole *supplier* of the currency.
Gov't spending adds financial assets to non-govt. Taxes destroy non-govt assets. So a gov't surplus is often a bad thing.
jstncbllr 4 months ago
@jstncbllr I guess we won't agree on this. Do you see that there is a great difference in Bob and Sally's wealth if they pay each other seashells for doing each other services like cutting each others hair, compared to paying each other to work on increasing their productivity in catching fish? The latter will provide them with the opportunity to actually start doing each others services without starving. Modern economists just stare on the GDP numbers without thinking through what's in it.
blaavass 4 months ago
@jstncbllr Let's say you put one more person on the island, Robin, and he acts like a government. He can tax Bob and Sally and spend their money. He can buy fish from them, eat it and and provide some services in return, massage now and then. He will also pay them for building some infrastructure etc. By the way, Robin is extremely wasteful since he has not worked for the money himself, and he has gone deep into fish-debt to the neighbour island "China".
blaavass 4 months ago
@jstncbllr The reason for Robin having borrowed from China is that he is paying Bob and Sally to to services instead of fishing. Of course, Robin is never fishing himself since he is the goverment. Do you see that Robin is a burden on the island's economy? China observes that the other island has depleted their stock of fish and their are not focused on fishing. China gets worried that the other island will not be able to repay the borrowed fish.
blaavass 4 months ago
@jstncbllr At the same time China don't want any of the other island's services like a massage or a haircut. China decides to stop lending any more fish to the other island and Rob and Sally starts to starve (lower living standard). However, Robin comes up with a great idea. He starts infrastructure spending by paying Rob and Sally with seashells for building many extra bridges on the island and for making the roads extra nice. Do you think the island becomes more wealth or poorer of this?
blaavass 4 months ago
@jstncbllr Without telling anyone Robin even goes down at the beach and collects more seashells so he can keep paying Rob and Sally, who becomes filthy rich on seashells, but still starves since they spend so little time on fishing. Hm, the fish prices are starting to pick up on the island too, since there is a lot of sea shell money competing for a very limited amount of fish.
blaavass 4 months ago
@jstncbllr Do you think Bob and Sally should kick Robin off the island, bite the bullet, underconsume, devote all their time towards fishing again and do work that will increase their productivity in fishing, and replenish their stock of fish? Do you think they then would be able to repay their debt to China? Do you think they in this way will eventually be much more wealthy with nicer houses, roads and bridges? Or should they rather put their trust in Robin's stimulus program....?
blaavass 4 months ago
@jstncbllr Do you think "USA" or "The Western World" would be a good name on Bob and Sally's island?
blaavass 4 months ago
@blaavass Yes, it matters how we allocate our resources. There's lots of debate on how to do that, but not the topic I'm on.
China has a lot of US bonds simply because we import a lot of their crap (paying them in $US). The US doesn't *need* them to buy US bonds.
The US can service any debt denominated in $US. It cannot default.
Your original point was "more debt is bad". You should distinguish between public/private debt. Gov't spending = private saving. A gov't surplus increases private debt.
jstncbllr 4 months ago
@jstncbllr Governments have defaulted again and again throughout history, either by not being able to pay or through inflation. Wonder which way US will go? Your idea seems to be that the FED can print all the money they want and buy up all of the US debt that others don't want for zero interest rate? This will make (chinese?) private sector rich and it doesn't matter that the goverment has more debt? It seems you should prepare for a tough awakening some time in the rather near future...
blaavass 4 months ago
@blaavass Governments that have defaulted in the past did not have currency sovereignty, they had convertible and/or fixed-rate currencies. Argentina for example was pegged to $US. Greece is similar: it's a *user* of the euro, not the *supplier*. Big difference. Gov'ts w/ a sovereign currency *cannot* default.
US debt issuance is a monetary tool that influences the fed funds interest rate. That's all it does. The US does not need to issue debt to "finance" the govt.
Read: bit [dot] ly/nfU2ns
jstncbllr 4 months ago
@jstncbllr I obviously don't agree that the FED don't need to issue debt to finance the US government. I know there are all sorts of wishful reasoning around this just like in the dotcom bubble, the housing bubble and now in the US debt bubble. Things always look fantastic from inside the bubble, but all bubbles come to an end. That's the awakening. I guess we'll not be able to agree here and the coming few years will anyway reveal who of us that got it right. Thanks for the debate:-)
blaavass 4 months ago
@blaavass Economic health is a matter of real world circumstances: jobs, production, etc. The debt, per se, doesn't tell you much.
For the US gov't, money is not scarce. Real resources are. Worrying that the US gov't will "run out" of money is like worrying that a stadium will run out of points to put on its scoreboard.
This is how a soft currency works. It's not opinion or ideology, it's simply the nature of a modern monetary system.
Read the link I gave, it's a bit long, but lays it all out
jstncbllr 4 months ago
@jstncbllr You are literally saying that US can print its way to prosperity since they have their debt in own currency and that the debt don't count. I would recommend you to read some austrian economics or read the piece on coming hyperinflation by Shadowstats(dot)com. I don't worry that US govt will run out of money, on the contrary, I think they will keep printing and borrowing. What I worry is that the US dollar will loose its value and that it will start to do so in a disorderly manner.
blaavass 4 months ago
@jstncbllr The article you reference is to me hilarious. The author of the article, Warren Mosler, belongs to what is called Chartalism or Modern Monetary Theory. To me, the essence of the article is that fiat money represents a "new era" defying gravity laws and that a goverment with its own currency can spend whatever they want. The effect of the government deficits is that private sector will get rich, building up their financial assets.
blaavass 4 months ago
@jstncbllr Also, Mosler's law is "There is no financial crisis so deep that a sufficiently large tax cut or spending increase cannot deal with it." Well, to me this sounds exactly like statements under the dot-com bubble and the housing bubble; "house prices can never fall". The natural conclusion will be that the US should run wild deficits and employ everyone by the government, give them good salaries, and everyone will be rich and the country prosperous. To me, this logic falls on itself.
blaavass 4 months ago
@jstncbllr My views are consistent with this article by Robert P. Murphy: mises(dot)org/daily/5260/The-UpsideDown-World-of-MMT; which concludes "The MMT worldview is intriguing, if only because it is so different from even the way conventional Keynesians think about fiscal and monetary policy. Unfortunately, it seems to me to be dead wrong. The MMTers concentrate on accounting tautologies that do not mean what they think."
blaavass 4 months ago
@jstncbllr I will recommend you to read "How an economy grows and why it crashes" by Peter D. Schiff and "Meltdown: A Free-Market Look at Why the Stock Market Collapsed, the Economy Tanked, and Government Bailouts Will Make Things Worse" by Tom Woods. Both books are easy to read and understand.
blaavass 4 months ago
@blaavass To repeat: given a trade deficit, it is *impossible* for both private and gov't sectors to run surpluses.
This is why the distinction between private debt and gov't debt is important. Currently we have a big trade deficit, a lot of idle resources (unemployment) because of low demand, and a desire to save (pay off debt) in the private sector.
If the gov't reduces its deficit, the private sector *necessarily* will take on more debt. Debt can't hurt the govt. But it can hurt people.
jstncbllr 4 months ago
@jstncbllr I will also recommend to watch clips of Niall Ferguson: /user/ContrarianInvestor#p/u/3/loUUVhibkOQ; Peter Schiff: /watch?v=EgMclXX5msc; Marc Faber: /watch?v=H0sS6a9RW2E
blaavass 4 months ago
@blaavass I'm familiar with the Austrian school. I find it to be more philosophical than reality-based. Most proponents are anti-govt ideologues. There's plenty of discussion between Austrians/MMTers out there, I won't go into it here. For more on Murphy see:
bit. ly/uPPDOc
P Schiff is a boob.
I watched some of the Faber. He conflates private/public debt (typical). Minsky's theory of instability is deeper than his fixation solely on interest rates.
jstncbllr 4 months ago
@blaavass "[MMT] conclusion [is] that the US should run wild deficits"
No, read deeper. This is a common mischaracterization.
MMT acknowledges that deficits can sometimes cause inflation. But it dispels the myth that a "balanced budget" is always desirable *for its own sake*. Overall gov't spending should be based on current levels of private savings and investment, and the trade deficit.
Given a trade deficit, it is *impossible* for both private and gov't sectors to run surpluses.
jstncbllr 4 months ago
@jstncbllr I guess we won't agree on this, but thanks for the debate. To me, Austrian Economics makes perfectly sense in understanding the real economy and I have discovered that it is austrians that have actually been able again and again to predict what is going to happen in the economy.
blaavass 4 months ago
First you need to restore Glass-Steagall banking laws to reign in the mega banks
HR 1489
slade420 4 months ago
the best way to create jobs is to start massive infrastructure projects like the North American Water and Power Alliance. Estimated to create 6 million jobs. The only way to fund it is to End the FED and replace it with a national system of credit through the treasury.
slade420 4 months ago
Occupy Wall Street better hires Bob Pollin as Chief Economic Advisor (C.E.A ^.^) before they get caught up by fuckers such as Jeffrey Sachs (nicked The Butcher of Tharsis or The Butcher for short).
Jeffrey Sachs (The Butcher) was already addressing OWS in NYC using "the human microphone" (hearing a human crowd repeating The Butcher's utterances loudly was deeply traumatic for my anarchist friends -- they are now incontinent, traumatized for life).
akkonburike 4 months ago
i don't like bob pollin too much. he's too much talk. this and that, blablabla. 16 minutes to tell us what we already know and to state his opinion, which basically amounts to "well, we could either do this or that. what we should ACTUALLY do, that i don't know either. lol"?
Diosukekun 4 months ago
RAND corp at its best! Revolution in military affairs.
Globalization agenda = Green is Red = Global technocorporatism = Total control
OrgonVpH7 4 months ago
End the fed already..... btw pal, Private sector doesn't want to to invest because of the political instability Obama has caused and this federal gov has caused. I haven't hired nor am I planning on expanding to another location like we were talking about with all this tax talk going on. I'm in coast mode right now and don't plan on changing until see stability... why give our tax to gov who will only piss it away. Keep your greedy paws off my labor criminals. I am not your slave
NYredwhiteandblue 4 months ago
End socialism for the rich, begin socialism for the poor and middle class.
epsilon8998 4 months ago
I'm a wealth creator. When I have nothing to create, what need, money?
carefulcarpenter 4 months ago
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As far as demands go I'd only have one: the Financial elite willingly surrenders ALL of it's power to the people. We redistribute not the money, but the POWER. Call me back when that happens.
NoCommentChick 4 months ago
And the big subject: how do we want our economy to work? Who owns the means of production and how do the people benefit from the economy. We certainly don't want to continue to be slaves to the oligarchs.
cityguyusa 4 months ago
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@cityguyusa Watch Real footage of Real banks causing Real problems at UmotionS.com.
See the trailer at my channel with the link in it’s description.
DedmanUmotionS 4 months ago
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NoCommentChick 4 months ago
Medicare for all
Pensions for all
Living Wage for all
We need these basic assurances especially since corporate needs to be more competitive and is renigging on their benefit promises to their employees. We cannot go through life and find out that our employer has folded and they don't have any money for our pensions, etc. I don't think 401k's are a solution, this was a plan that was put in place for Wall Sts benefit and profits and as we see now most people have lost their investments.
cityguyusa 4 months ago
The existing system that you promote is seriously broken. We need to create a system that serves US, the 99%. My suggestion is that we make our basic operating principle be that each American has, as a birthright, a share of the land and resources they need to be self sustaining. I believe that we have PAID IN FULL for America through bailouts & decades of usurious interest. We no longer need this system of wage slavery. We need land and resources, not jobs.
rootcause123 4 months ago
Why not interview someone who is actually in the OWS demands working group?
binhthanhvo 4 months ago
Communism is a spiritual disorder
Armando7654 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Who Owns and Operates the Federal Reserve Banks?
Rothschild Bank of London, Warburg Bank of Hamburg, Rothschild Bank of Berlin, Lehman Brothers of New York, Lazard Brothers of Paris, Kuhn Loeb Bank of New York, Israel Moses Seif Banks of Italy, Goldman, Sachs of New York, Warburg Bank of Amsterdam, Chase Manhattan Bank of New York
ISRAEL DID 911
ISRAEL DID 911
ISRAEL DID 911
Wrothchild 4 months ago
bring back gold standard
OrdoMallius 4 months ago
Want to build infrastructure for clean, green energy & efficiency? Tax carbon. This serves multiple purposes: Brings gov't revenue; protects our environment by weaning us from fossil fuels; & incentivizes green energy development & efficiency improvements. Win-Win-Win.
lanscot 4 months ago
DEBATES WE WANT DEBATES
OCCUPY WALL ST DEBATERS VS MAINSTREAM DEBATERS
THUM UP SO PAUL CAN KNOW WHAT WE WANT
StraussBR 4 months ago 18
This has been flagged as spam show
bankers+lawyers+police+judge+politicians+criminals+terrorist+gamblinglords
+rebelnarcopolitician+dictators+rulers+etc = DIRTY CAPITALIST SCAM PIGS.
BANKERS & DRUGLORDS screwed life & society in human history.
BURN THE BANKS. BURN DRUG LORDS ALIVE & OCCUPY THE WORLD...!!!
BURN THE BANKS. BURN DRUG LORDS ALIVE & OCCUPY THE WORLD...!!!
"GOD dont SAVE the PIG CAPITALIST QUEEN"
SAVE the ANIMALS & NATURE. END THE DEBT.
kopellhinex 4 months ago
@StraussBR wrong
DecentralizedByGuilt 4 months ago
CAFR School - OWS Wake Up! - What Is A Commingled Fund?
watch?v=nml1pfB9tzM
911truthncDotOrg 4 months ago
Eh, on Robert Pollin. Address LOANING MONEY AGAIN AS OPPOSED TO CONTINUE THE FED'S PONZI SCHEME to Small Businesses. Industrial manufacturing is dead. He assesses it but with nothing new suggested. There is no safe deal for a business or the bank's investing.
Ironically, sitting money is still money and no one makes money on still money. He does point out that it is the large mega corporate banks that have access to the money. Solar Energy was killed by Reagan in 1981 so his example is a decoy.
Beadbud5000 4 months ago
1) Is the corruption of government by big money.
2) Is the lack of participation and representation of the 99% in fixing the problems of this country because of number 1.
3) The lack of accountability of the 1% due to 1 and 2.
We want the 1% to have 1% of the decision making power.
Once power is restored to the people we can start cooperating and arguing and looking for solutions to the may other problems we face instead begging the 1%'s permission to do things that make sense.
michalchik 4 months ago 8
Fucking idiot loonatic capitalfascists, without even knowing it :(... Ron Paul is their "Führer".
noprofitmaximierung 4 months ago
@Searching4Truth1 -_- You must have such a high literate knowledge. Read a book... !
noprofitmaximierung 4 months ago
It's not just three issues. How about unethical even criminal business practices for starters.
Nieves57 4 months ago
The one and only 'demand' or 'goal' should be that the POTUS, the Senate, the House of Representatives, the SCOTUS, et al, go back to following the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and keep Big Brother out of the lives of its citizens
Begin with repealing the Patriot Act, the TSA, the DHS, the EPA & other agencies & regulations that are detrimental to the common citizen
And bar the lobbyists, the porkbarrels, et al
Searching4Truth1 4 months ago in playlist More videos from TheRealNews 2
The OWS socialists, communists, radicals, anarchists & activists should watch some documented history
By Searching-
[ The Bloody History of Communism (3 of 14)
But then perhaps not, they would only deny it as propaganda by the west; especially the US govt ^_~
Communism was the bloodiest ideology that caused so many millions of deaths in the 20th century
Communism & its underlying philosophy; from Marx to Lenin, Stalin, Mao or Pol Pot - theorists of violence & masters of cruelty
Searching4Truth1 4 months ago
@Searching4Truth1 You do realize that no one in OWS is advocating the end of private property, right?
Or do you just believe everything Fox News tells you, instead of actually Searching for Truth?
BoredomCorner 4 months ago
@BoredomCorner
ermmmm, you 'do' realize I said nothing (yet) about private property, right ? Or are you one of those Canadians that, like many US liberals, attempt to put words into others mouths or statements?
Just as you infer that my posting is from Fox ^_~
Surely you're not that lonely and are able to do better?
Searching4Truth1 4 months ago
0 - FORCE MAJEURE! – Call Void All Bankster Bogus Derivative Debts! Because paying off these trough fraud induced debts have become a technical and practical impossibility.
FROM: THE REAL PROBLEMS & SOLUTIONS BY YOURI CARMA, 29 December 2008, (Blogs.Reuters – The Great Debate)
YouriCarma 4 months ago
Nothing Occupy Wall Street can accomplish can be met without a constitutional change, and that will only happen with a revolution. And we all know nothing will happen.
LeathermanFan2 4 months ago
US has a debt problem which has come about by profligate spending of the federal government. And this guy's demands (solutions) is more spending. US debt is already 100% of GDP; when does he think there will be enough spending? (However, I do agree with him about letting the banks fail).
jonesr227 4 months ago
@jonesr227 what has the fed been spending that cost the most and add to the debt? please think about this.
lordblazer 4 months ago
@lordblazer Please think about the fact that the US must not get into debt further, regardless of how worthy government programs are perceived. There are real repercussions for every citizen when the debt becomes unmanageable. Take a look at Greece. The US will default on its debt when the rest of the world decides that it's no longer willing to accept US dollars which has no inherent value. The answer to your question: increasing government bureaucracy, two wars etc.
jonesr227 4 months ago
@jonesr227 Greece defaulted because they do not have control over their own currency. That is not the case with the US. Generally speaking, countries that control their own currency cannot default. The fundamental mistake a lot of people make is in assuming that the US government "spends" money, and therefore has to stay within a budget. But this is wrong. The US government ISSUES money, and can do so (if need be) indefinitely. It can run up as large a debt as it wants and cannot default.
poopnoodle3000 4 months ago
@jonesr227
there is an aggregate demand problem, private sector is overleveraged, so the logic is that gvt. has to step up to make up for it
GohanMH1 4 months ago
@GohanMH1 During the downturn of 1921, government did not step in and the recovery was quick . However, if government intervenes a la Roosevelt and Obama then the recovery is protracted.
jonesr227 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@jonesr227
the recovery was quick because households were less indebted. with housing prices down 40% and gloomy expectations private sector is not likely to spend, be it for investment or consumption. there has to be a debt jubilee or dramatic spike in exports to get this going, imho
GohanMH1 4 months ago
Comment removed
GohanMH1 4 months ago
spend more on education
IDontDoDrumCovers 4 months ago
Banks are lending money! at 28%! Who doesn't have a credit card?
1971SuperLead 4 months ago
@1971SuperLead
I don't. I'm not even in credit card debt.
lordblazer 4 months ago
@1971SuperLead I don't - I have a Visa debit card, I pay everything cash with the only debt I have is a student loan ($27K).
kawaiigardiner 4 months ago
@kawaiigardiner Here's a tip, try never to buy anything on credit. Houses, a business and an education are the exceptions, but even those are better bought cash.
1971SuperLead 4 months ago
@1971SuperLead Agreed. if I can't afford something I either save up or decide not to buy it - to be in debt is to sign ones life into slavery. Far too many people are propelled by instant gratification of having a shiny cool new toy than standing back and firstly asking whether it is necessary to have it in the first place and if so whether it is a good idea to borrow for that said item. I look at the private debt in NZ and it is unsustainable but few are willing to admit that cold hard reality.
kawaiigardiner 4 months ago
@kawaiigardiner Long ago I realized that toys don't bring me much happiness. Money buys food, shelter, transportation and a computor, and that's about it. The rest is best used for freedom. Let your money work for you.
Oh, never invest in anything you don't fully understand, e.g. stocks, bonds, annuities, etc. Never trust anyone with your money. Never own a lot of money. Always use it to buy real estate, antiques, ammo, etc.
Lastly, never live alone. At least have a cat, so life has purpose.
1971SuperLead 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@1971SuperLead Watch Real footage of Real banks causing Real problems at UmotionS.com.
See the trailer at my channel with the link in it’s description.
DedmanUmotionS 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@kawaiigardiner Watch Real footage of Real banks causing Real problems at UmotionS.com.
See the trailer at my channel with the link in it’s description.
DedmanUmotionS 4 months ago
this talk is all very sterile and bloodless...it doesn't begin to address the fact that the 1% are settling their crimes out of court and returning to work, nor of the collusion that's been fostering this super-villain bullshit.
GobblerTalk 4 months ago
He left out weeding out corruption!
JasonVladimir 4 months ago
"WHAT DEMANDS"?
DO PEOPLE NOT KNOW WHAT IS FAIR AND RIGHT?
If government does not what is right and fair, then they are retarded.
1971SuperLead 4 months ago
The biggest corporations are getting cash for free thanks to the Federal Reserve's magic printing press. The problem is that when the currency becomes completely devalued and ends up dropping near zero, then the corporations will have very little value. The cash reserves the corporations are saving up will be useless.
burnindownthehouse 4 months ago
i was right, this guy has no idea what he's talking about. just someone with socialist ideas.
JackofOneTrade567 4 months ago
It's not Demands, it's Goals -- please stop using the language the Corporate Media wants us to use. Demands can be decapitated too easily, goals are deeper and gain more traction. Thanks for covering OWS and helping to bring thoughts to the table.
Aiden057 4 months ago
@Aiden057 I like that!
JasonVladimir 4 months ago
@Aiden057
I will take it a step further and say that demands makes the protesters look like criminals holding a hostage, and asking for some kind of ransom. It just doesn't suit my style to hear that word. Goals is the perfect word of choice. Corporate media knows exactly what its doing.
lordblazer 4 months ago
i knew before watching this video that this guy would have nothing but bad advice. lets see how i feel afterwords . . . .
JackofOneTrade567 4 months ago
While Bob Polin made good short term solutions, we need deeper structural changes to our political system than Bob Pollin suggests. What's going to stop the 1% from using its wealth to corrupt our political system? None of his suggestions would change that.
The occupy wallstreet movement needs to be a movement that relies on taking the public areas back and creating our own general assemblies. We cannot rely on corrupt institutions for demands because they serve the elites.
woostopalypse 4 months ago
Fuck the Federal government. End it. End the welfare system. Teachers should make 20k a year and rent apartments in the local community like they did in the 1920s. End the Federal Reserve, end the department of education, end the wars, end the empire by closing ALL military bases. Education in the USA is Indoctrination. Let the weak and dumb die. The USA is controlled by parasites - those that live off the government and those the WORK FOR THE GOVERNMENT. I look forward to the complete collapse.
HeavyMetalPedal 4 months ago
@HeavyMP You're right. The U.S. is controlled by parasites. It's called the entitlement class of Corporate CEO's, board of directors, bankers, attorneys, brokers & politicians; & the idle rich & their trust fund brats; & riding those coat tails are the celebrities, spin doctors & upper management of organizations of true consequence. They gorge themselves at the public trough w/o having contributed and suck the profit marrow out of legitimate businesses. They're bloated leaches about to burst.
FriedDaisy 4 months ago 3
@HeavyMetalPedal go smell a donkey's ass you parasite! Fuck Ron Paul
DrShitandStank 4 months ago
Protect the Public Sector? That is a terrible idea. The government would do well to destroy itself. But they won't ever cut the public sector. Obama will "protect" the public employees even at the expense of the private. We must reject the notion that government is the source of wealth and jobs. I don't worship God or Government. Analyze reality
mjbarrowful 4 months ago
At least the government is somewhat democratic (however corrupt and subservient to corporations it may be). The private sector is completely totalitarian. You want to abolish our only democratic institution, so that the private sector may do whatever it pleases. In other words, corporations would become the state, with their own private military.
woostopalypse 4 months ago
@woostopalypse that has never, and will never happen. reality isn't a hollywood movie.
JackofOneTrade567 4 months ago
@JackofOneTrade567 what other democratic institutions are left once you eliminate the government?
woostopalypse 4 months ago
@woostopalypse the government, especially the US govt, is not a democratic institution.
JackofOneTrade567 4 months ago
@JackofOneTrade567 Okay. The government is not democratic. Then lets make corporations democratic institutions. Let the workers control the means of production. Or is that too radical?
woostopalypse 4 months ago
@woostopalypse Corporations are already democratic institutions. Your money IS your vote. Communism is a failed and draconian system, so don't even start with that.
JackofOneTrade567 4 months ago
@JackofOneTrade567 That's not democratic. Those with the most money will have more influence than those who do not. That encourages corruption.
We already have communism. Corporate communism. Corporations are the biggest welfare recipients.
woostopalypse 4 months ago
@woostopalypse Influence over what? Companies need to keep their customers satisfied, or else they lose money. They may have money, but their customers have numbers, not to mention companies need a continuous flow of money from said customers. Govt is the exact opposite - the more unhappy their citizens, the more money they make.
Corporate communism doesn't exist, it's contradictory. You're thinking of fascism, where big business and the govt collude to oppress citizens.
JackofOneTrade567 4 months ago
@JackofOneTrade567 Those with the most money will have influence over the entire political system. By bribery, buying out competitors, rewriting laws, etc... What you are describing is only a form of consumerism. You honestly think consumerism is the best form of democracy? Civil Rights, Women rights, environmental laws id not come through consumerism. People getting together and protesting for changes is democracy!
woostopalypse 4 months ago
@woostopalypse Your money is your vote. If a company pollutes or discriminates, don't buy their products. How is that not democracy? You're right, those with the most money can influence govt the most. You're again making my argument for me. If you want a fair and prosperous economy that encourages innovation, get rid of govt. Democracy though govt is a very weak, if not no-existent, form of democracy. It requires the least amount of knowledge and effort, and yields the least favorable results.
JackofOneTrade567 4 months ago
@JackofOneTrade567 Your ideas are too "micro". You see the trees but not the forest. It's the typical free-market fundamentalist, fallacy of composition viewpoint.
Markets have their own set of failures. Externalities, monopoly, information asymmetry, unequal bargaining power, etc. Markets left alone can easily produce results that are not in the public interest.
There is no free market fairy.
jstncbllr 4 months ago
@jstncbllr wrote : "... There is no free market fairy."
Balony. Free market is the way that Wall Street et al work ; NOT fair market, but freely, neoliberally doing what they wish, and, so far, they're ahead.
Whether it's free market or not depends on what each person considers this to be. Some people might use some arbitrary rules, or maybe not so much arbitrary, but still applying limits to freedom, freely committed acts. Who pays for wars? Taxpayers? Who profits? Wall Street et al, freely
mikecorbeil 4 months ago
@mikecorbeil "fairy |ˈfe(ə)rē|
noun ( pl. fairies)
1 a small imaginary being of human form that has magical powers, esp. a female one."
Guy, by invoking the "free market fairy", what I'm saying is that free market fundamentalism is utopian thinking. Markets have their purpose, but are far from a panacea. I'm sure you agree.
jstncbllr 4 months ago
@jstncbllr Yes, I agree.
mikecorbeil 2 months ago
@jstncbllr I never promoted free market anything. I know what free market business is today. It's why, fe, many US jobs have been offshored. It's also why the H-1B program was created by Pres. GHW Bush, a program for importing foreigners for hi-tech jobs in the US, where US citizens and legal residents would be increasingly, while gradually, denied job opportunities and which caused some of us, including myself, to become totally bankrupted.
Fair market is what's needed.
mikecorbeil 2 months ago
@mikecorbeil I'm not sure why you're telling me this. I never suggested you promoted anything at all, much less laissez faire markets. I told some other guy that the "Free Market Fairy" does not exist, to which you interjected "balony" (sic). I think you simply missed my point. The dictionary definition of "fairy" was meant to clarify.
You might want to re-read my comments (as well as your comment agreeing with me two weeks ago).
Cheers!
jstncbllr 2 months ago
@mikecorbeil You just gave an example of govt intervention and then blamed it on the free market, and you call me moronic. Way to put your foot in your mouth.
JackofOneTrade567 2 months ago