IronCharrioteer Debunks a creationist animation (part 2)

[WWZenaDo]

Aaaargh! Part II ISN'T WORKING!!!

[pillowbugg]

Let's say the christian god is real.  Who would want to spend eternity worshipping something like that; petty, jealous, angry, conceited, murderer, sexual predator, slave master, tormentor, torturer, game player.....I mean, what kind of morality coming from a god?? There is no consistency with their god. I was raised Lutheran. Since I began to focus on the subject with rationale and reason; how could someone with any intelligence take this seriously. I'm truely happy I'm a "born again atheist

[YesForHope]

Repent of your sins or burn in hell is the same as Bush saying you're with us or you're with the terrorists.

[wimpyshrub]

Not a single one of us even deserves life. We're all sinful. Thus we all deserve death and eternal suffering. It's because of God's mercy that you're even alive and have the choice to follow Him. Just living a good life isn't good enough to escape hell. Gandhi knew about Jesus. He just refused him. That right there is damnation to hell. No matter how good you are. Gandhi was still a sinner.

[JonathanClement140]

Can you please elaborate on how being imperfect deserves to be tortured forever?

[wimpyshrub]

Because being imperfect means we're disobeying God. You don't HAVE to be tortured forever. He gives us a choice. He gave us Jesus. Jesus came to die for us so we don't have to experience hell for eternity. See, our minds just don't understand it. We're used to our justice system. In our society, eternal torture, no matter what the crime, is just ridiculous and no one deserves it. That's not the way God sees it though. Either you're with God, or against him. You make the choice willfully.

[WhiteDragon103]

@wimpyshrub

You're a joke. Go back to sucking on Jesus' penis, plzkthxbai.

[wimpyshrub]

Why do you feel the need to be so rude? I'm sure your reasoning for our existence is much better than mine. You're extremely ignorant, so you must know all the truth. You seem so very positive that God isn't real, so what do you believe in? Why don't you share that with us instead of spouting insults for no good reason. You're giving a bad name to the rest of your atheist friends.

[JonathanClement140]

And yet, you're not making Christians look back by saying they deserve to be tortured forever?

[WhiteDragon103]

@wimp Oh, yeah. Totally. I'm giving my rational friends a bad name by calling you out on your loyalty to an arrogant, overinflated lord tyrant who thinks that all of humanity deserves to be horrendously tortured for not meeting up to his standard.

I am not going to claim that nothing vaguely simmilar to a god does not exist, however I'm sure that such a supreme being would not have such a spiteful, bigoted, fallous and *evil* way of looking at us humans. You respect God for this? Shame on you

[JonathanClement140]

And who MADE us imperfect in the first place? GOD! And does somebody have to die at all? What's the point of that?

Your mind doesn't understand it because it's BULLSHIT! Bullshit made to control you! Why can't you see that?!

Eternal torture is NOT justified ever and if God thinks otherwise, then God is wrong! Infact, he's an insane psychopath who's not worthy of any kind of worship! He's a murderous, insecure, vain, petty, jealous, bully!

[wimpyshrub]

Our free will made us imperfect. Eve chose to eat the fruit and share it with Adam. Jesus was the sacrifice. Our sins died with him. How is it made to control me? I believe it because it's truth, not because I'm brainwashed. And if you're saying it's controlling me by trying to make me a good person, then it's controlling you too, because you have morals. How do you tell God he's wrong? You're opinion doesn't matter to God. He is just. End of story. Keep saying that. You'll regret it in the end.

[JonathanClement140]

And who GAVE us that free will? How can God punish us for being the way he created us?

And no, religion is just controlling you, period. Religion doesn't make you a good person! If it weren't for religion, you would have good people doing good things, and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. If the only reason you don't do bad things is because you're afraid of being punished, then you're a horrible person. (Cont'd)

[JonathanClement140]

Also, MIGHT DOESN'T MAKE RIGHT! Just because he's the most powerful being in the universe, doesn't mean he's GOOD or JUST! Why do you have such a blatantly stupid idea?! God is NOT just! You know this, but you're too much of a coward to admit it! Let go of your faith! It's the best thing that ever happened to me! When I realized Christianity was false, It was like a huge weight had been lifted off of my shoulders because the world made SO much more sense without it!

[JonathanClement140]

And stop thinking your parents and everyone around you is infallible, too! Just because the majority believes something, doesn't make it true! Just because your parents believe something, it doesn't make it true! Your faith is a product of your culture. It's pushed on you from birth and daring to leave it results in ostracism from your society. You've invested so much into it all your life, that you don't want to admit it's wrong! (Cont'd)

[JonathanClement140]

Furthermore, if you admit Christianity is wrong, then you also have to admit that you don't have all the answers! Of where you come from or what the meaning of life is or what happens after you die! They're all unknowns, and unknowns are scary! But that's no reason to believe in something that you know deep down is false! You just have to accept life for what it is and live it the best you can!

[wimpyshrub]

I pity you. That's all I can say. Satan has scored again. Congratulations on your new life. I hope you fulfill all your dreams in this life because your nightmares will come true when you die.

[JonathanClement140]

No! Satan doesn't exist! Satan was created by the church to control you with fear! You didn't even address my points! You just jumped straight to Supernatural threats! Why the fuck would you lie and say you love a God that you know you don't! Seriously! Stop following everybody around like a sheep and THINK FOR YOURSELF!

Answer me this, if YOU were God, would YOU torture somebody for eternity for ANY reason?

[wimpyshrub]

Again, I pity you. Satan does exist. Satan was not created by the church. I didn't address your points because this box only allows 500 characters. If I were in person with you I would probably carry on for a good long while. You obviously don't know me at all. I DO love God. I'm not lying. I'm a sheep to God. I do think for myself. With my ability to think for myself, I trust in God.

I'm not God, so how is that question even slightly relative?

[JonathanClement140]

Then, refresh the page and continue it in another box of 500 characters until you've given a sufficient amount of information.

You don't love God. You're just scared of him. I know because I used to be a Christian. I thought for myself and realized the Christian God was evil.

And it's relevant because it shows you what YOU think about hell, so just answer anyway. If you were God, would you create hell and keep people there for eternity for any reason?

[wimpyshrub]

How are you going to tell me I don't love God? I do fear God. Why would someone NOT fear God? It's a respect kind of fear, though. I know God loves me.

Why would you turn away from God when thinking for yourself? The theories of Scienctists for our existence are so ridiculous and flawed that it blows my mind that people actually believe them.

How is God evil?

My mind doesn't function the same way, and can't think the same way as God. I can't answer the question.

[JonathanClement140]

Wimpy, look at yourself! You're cowering in fear about what's written in an ancient book! Tell me! What reason do you have to believe that anything in it is actually the word of a god?

Second, Scientists only postulate what we KNOW! Scientists don't believe the big bang came from nothing! They don't KNOW what caused the Big Bang and they freely admit this! All they DO know is that it happened!

[wimpyshrub]

I have reason to believe it's the word of God because the Bible says so.

Then what do they believe it came from? Was it just there? It just always was? Hmmm... That sounds alot like something else... God maybe? Who's to say God didn't create the big bang? You can't say that's not a possibility, because scientists don't know.

[JonathanClement140]

"I have reason to believe it's the word of God because the Bible says so."

...............WHAT THE FUCK?! PLEASE tell me you're just joking!

[wimpyshrub]

I'm not joking.

[JonathanClement140]

Oh, GOD... WHY?! You believe in it JUST because it says it's the word of God?! Do you have any idea how moronic that is?! The Quaran says it's the word of God, too! Why don't you believe in that?

I call a troll!

[JonathanClement140]

Well, of COURSE it's possible, BUT then you have to admit that it's not the bible because science says it happened 14.7 billion years ago and the bible says it happened 6000 years ago.

[wimpyshrub]

Umm... Science is wrong. It's that simple. Why do you think they're CONSTANTLY changing their theories? Because they keep finding out that they're wrong.

[JonathanClement140]

ARGH!!! FUCK! That's how science WORKS! It adapts itself to new information! Science looks for answers! Religion doesn't because it thinks it already has the answers, but it doesn't!

If science is wrong, then where did your computer and every piece of modern technology that you use today come from?

[JonathanClement140]

Also, how is God NOT evil? HE TORTURES PEOPLE FOR ETERNITY after CREATING THEM IMPERFECT! All because they won't bow down and kiss his ass! Honestly! What makes more sense? A God torturing people for eternity, or a church who wants to scare you into obeying and giving you their money?

And I'm asking what you would do if YOU were omnipotent! Would YOU torture people for all eternity? Nevermind what GOD thinks! What do YOU think?

[wimpyshrub]

He didn't creat us imperfect. Adam and Eve were perfect. They chose to disobey. That's when we become imperfect.

A God torturing people for eternity makes more sense to me. By the way, that's why I'm a follower of Christ. I'm not a huge fan of the church. The church has become too corrupt and is extremely judgemental.

Yes. If I was God, I would torture people for all eternity. If our God does it, I would too. If you're just so willingly ignorant, it serves you right.

[JonathanClement140]

No! When you're perfect, you don't MAKE mistakes!

"Yes. If I was God, I would torture people for all eternity."

THEN YOU ARE IMMORAL! Why on earth would you do that as opposed to REFORMING THEM somehow?

[wimpyshrub]

You do when you're given free will.

How is he immoral for that? He's God! He created morals! He did give us an option. It's your own dang fault if you don't accept Jesus. No one is to blame but yourself for ignoring him. He's merciful.

[JonathanClement140]

No! If you're perfect, you wouldn't USE your free will to make mistakes! Perfect being don't make mistakes! God didn't create morals! Moral or immoral is a label we put on actions that either harm or benefit society! And it is IMMORAL to torture people for eternity, so my morality obviously isn't from the God of the bible!

[wimpyshrub]

Why are you always yelling?

[JonathanClement140]

Cause you say the most ridiculous things and it drives me nuts!

[wimpyshrub]

Do I? I'm just curious, what have you gained? Okay, hypothetical situation. You're right and God doesn't exist. I die, and I'm dead. The end. I don't exist. I'm in the grave. Game over. There's no next life for me to regret this one anyways, so what have I lost? But what if I'm right? What if God exists? Is being an atheist on this earth really worth hell for the rest of eternity? What have you got to lose? Why not trust in the Lord?

[JonathanClement140]

"I'm just curious, what have you gained?"

The satisfaction that nobody will suffer in hell for eternity, the freedom to look at women all I want, the freedom from having every little aspect of my life controlled by a book.

Also, stop using pascals wager already1 Fuck, it's just one flawed cliche argument after another with you! What if islam is true? Then you'll go to hell for being a Christian! Also, if I'm right, then you've wasted the only life you know you're gonna get!

[wimpyshrub]

But I won't know I wasted it because my mind is gone. I don't think anymore. Same way that, if you're right, you won't remember looking at women. You won't remember not being "controlled by a book."

If Islam is true, then yes. I will burn in Islamic hell. But Islam is not true because Islam rejects Jesus as the Saviour.

[JonathanClement140]

Your life matters NOW! For God sake if this is all you get, then ENJOY IT! What's the point of making about how "bad" life is and yearning for a savior that will never come? Go and enjoy what you KNOW is true!

Also, about your reply about Islam:

Oh, for FUCK SAKES! There's no way you're a real person! But in the off-chance that you are, why does that automatically make Islam false? How did you get "Islam reject Christ, therefore it's false?"

[wimpyshrub]

I do enjoy my life. I find joy in bringing more people to my Saviour.

My Saviour will come and that's one of the truths I enjoy.

I am a very real person. Because Jesus said "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6.

Islam rejects that. Because they reject that, they can't get to the Father.

[JonathanClement140]

And what if it's not true? Then you know you're doing it all for nothing. Making an ass of yourself for no reason. And let's not forget limiting the rights and freedoms of others by trying to legislate who they can and can't marry, and blocking scientific progress, and filling peoples heads with fear of hellfire.

Also, how do you know that John 14:6 is even the truth? It's just words on a page and can't be verified on it's own. How do you know it's true?

[wimpyshrub]

Your last statement is ridiculous. How do we know the Battle of Hastings even happened? It's just written. There's no evidence right now. All the knowledge we have of the battle is written in books. How do you know it's true?

[JonathanClement140]

With the battle of hastings, we generally have multiple, independent sources that are reliably consistent. But for all we know, THAT could have been made up, too. But, with the bible, all we have is the bible which can't even keep a consistent story. There were many historians living in, or around the area during or shortly after the time of Christ, but NONE wrote anything down about him.

Also, if it's books you need, why don't you believe the Quaran as well?

[wimpyshrub]

We have much more than the Bible. You don't realize how historically accurate the Bible is.

Saying no one wrote anything about him shows your lack of knowledge. Ever heard of Tacitus? He was a Roman historian. He wrote of Jesus. The census of Caesar Augustus. This contains information on Jesus. Flavius Josephes wrote of Jesus. Many more people, alive at the time, wrote of Jesus.

Because, as I stated before, Islam rejects Jesus.

[JonathanClement140]

None of those are contemporary! They came GENERATIONS after Christ's time! Furthermore, Josephus is a forgery.

And SO WHAT? Rejecting something doesn't mean it's not true! You just don't want to accept that Islam might be right because it will make you think that maybe you'll go to some other religions hell! You just can't BEAR the thought of there being no giant man in the sky watching out for you!

[wimpyshrub]

The census was taken while Jesus was a baby. Tacitus was born 20 years after Jesus had ascended. The fact that he was still talked about and was still a popular topic 20 years after should be even more proof.

Rejecting Jesus means that Islam is not the true religion of God. Accepting is not an option, since Islam is false. Why would I ever think that? The evidence is abundant.

[JonathanClement140]

The gospels themselves weren't written until 30 or 40 years after after the supposed death of Jesus! Furthermore, I'd like to see these so called records you have!

[wimpyshrub]

What does the amount of time between Jesus' death and the writing of the gospels have to do with anything?

What records do I claim to have?

[JonathanClement140]

Because the desciples during that time period would be very unlikely to have lived to be that old! Second, Why would they wait that long? Wouldn't they write it RIGHT AWAY? And third, it looks more like it was all conjured up on the spot, considering the way they contradict eachother so much.

And by records, I mean the evidence you have of Christ. Where is it? What exactly does it say?

[wimpyshrub]

Where do you get your information stating the years the gospels were written?

"Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius"

Annals 15.44

That's a historical document outside the Bible, written by the Roman historian Tacitus.

[JonathanClement140]

Again, Tacitus was not a contemporary, not did he mention any of the miracles or Jesus Christ, nor does he mention Jesus Christ by name. (Yeshua). Only "Christus" which is a title, not a name.

Also, google it.

[wimpyshrub]

"Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate"

Really...? You think someone else by the name Christ was put to death by Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius?

He didn't mention miracles for the same reason news reporters only mention what they want to mention. Why would someone that worships and believes in the Roman gods report something that would make the Christian religion true? That would be admitting that his religion is false.

[JonathanClement140]

EXACTLY! So why would you keep following a religion you know is false?!

[wimpyshrub]

What? I don't know it's false. Because it isn't.

[JonathanClement140]

Also, how the hell does torturing people for eternity make more sense?!

[JonathanClement140]

Also, answer me this: If YOU were God, would YOU torture ANYBODY for eternity for ANY reason?!

[Skantaq]

Jesus wants to save us from himself.

That's just fantastic.

[WhiteDragon103]

I'm glad that you didn't write anything about Eternal life being a curse and death giving purpose, or some nonsense like that.

[RaustBD]

I don't understand what your problem is with that.

of course you'll eventually get bored out of your mind with pretty much everything. good things can't last forever. otherwise they wouldn't be so special.

[WhiteDragon103]

It's very pessimistic, and honestly, also very irritating to me that people have such a belief because I think that it is destructive.

Also, psychologically, technologically, and in general, is also very false.

Check out AgnosticDragon103's channel and watch "Who Wants to Live Forever?"

[RaustBD]

that's your channel, isn't it?

my point: life is only worth living while there are enjoyable things to do. if you get bored of everything, even if it takes several million years, what are you going to do for the rest of eternity?

[WhiteDragon103]

AgnosticDragon103 (Not the same as WhiteDragon103)

Even if becoming inevitably bored with everything was a realistic hypothetical, you have to think of what logic would be involved with chosing suicide: Would it be better to have a cup that is half full/empty, or have no glass at all? Hmm. My point: no logic is at play when making a decision like this, it is purely emotional, genetically hardwired, as is our instinct of fight or flight - both are not useful, at least in most of modern life.

[Afriboy2007]

I respectfully disagree. Immortality within society would render reproduction, a function which all living organisms use to pass on genes to the next generation would be rendered moot. Immortality within society does not simply extend to personal consequences but halts innovation and removes potential. Aside consuming resources that humans need to survive faster to meet needs of an eternal existence, to find new ways of existing with any meaning will follow. Mortality is the best way to exist.

[WhiteDragon103]

Ugh. Well, have fun not existing since that's your thing.

[Afriboy2007]

My argument doesn't suggest I don't like life. It merely suggests I'm comfortable with my own mortality, and am nnot selfish enough to cling on to it like a baby, instead of give own kids and their kids a chance to live it. I'm not one of those emo, Nietzsche wannabes who think everything is pointless. I'm just saying having eternal life doesn't really bring much meaning or purpose, if any.

[WhiteDragon103]

Perhaps the idea of eternal life is not appealing to you. Perhaps to die and to spend an eternity of non-existence is what blows your hair back. Whatever, I'm not going to try to change your mind. But that way of life is not for everyone.

You know, I personally prefer that there not be, like... a point when I'd be taken from all the family and friends, and never, ever see them again. Yeah, well... But that's just me. *Shrugs*

(Hope you caught onto the sarcasm there.)

[Afriboy2007]

*sigh* Okay, whatever. Despite the fact that everyone has experienced the same thing as far back as the beginning of the human race, in particular myself. I'm just very interested to see what you plan to do for an eternity, being that you would achieved the pinnacle of existence. I'm saying that the memory of the individual who has impacted friends, family or even society in general would be enough. Having existed at all, and did something with your life would be sufficient.

[Afriboy2007]

Finally, I'm certain a lot of people who don't believe in the afterlife are extremely comfortable with being dead, and not living again. That is the inevitability of death. While I could argue that you're very uncomfortable with your own mortality, hence your speculation that I apparently don't like living and knowing it will end at some point gives me joy. However, I will stick to my point that one's mortality is irrelevant as long as the person is remembered, and yes pain comes with loss.

[Afriboy2007]

However, pain and loss are as much part of this world as pleasure and gain. This is what life is. While I could accept life extension since they would improve the lives of millions but eternal life in my opinion imply that the dreamers of such an existence are far too concerned about their deaths and haven't found meaning to their lives yet. Eternal life robs the uniqueness that came with life in the first place.

[WhiteDragon103]

Life's full potential for meaning, prosperity and happiness can only be unlocked when we defeat the force that haunted our kind since the beginning; at force that strips us of all our freedoms: The freedom to walk, the freedom to feel, the freedom to think... the freedom to be people. Life is magnificent. We spend our lives growing, learning, establishing connections with loved ones... and then it is all destroyed. Without a face to smile, without a voice to laugh, without a thought to ponder.

[WhiteDragon103]

You think eternal life would rob us of purouse? Death strips our right to realize our dreams. Death had done so for billions of people. But now, having matured as a species the amount that we have, we can fight back, taking back what's ours. And fight I (we) shall. It will happen whether or not you think it shouldn't.

[WhiteDragon103]

I'm not the kind of person who wishes to live a humble life. On the grand scale of things, one may as well consider himself nonexistent. I'm not happy with that. I don't want that.

This lifetime is the only lifetime I have... perhaps one could say that this lifetime is the only thing I've ever had, and ever will have, in that everything is a part of life:

[WhiteDragon103]

From the vivid crispness of a sunlit afternoon walk through a park, to the fluttery, warming feeling in your chest when your in love... simply the enriching fullness and aesthetic complexity of life.

(/cheesy) I cannot treat that which is infinite to me so finitely. And I resent that others would, and have been forced to.

I have big dreams. I want to make the world the kind of place where anything you can imagine will happen if you wish hard enough.

[WhiteDragon103]

An infinite life is simply that - infinite. In all directions. Having all the time one wanted to explore what infinite really means is all anyone could really fathom at this point. If I were granted immortality, I'd be able to enter all the doors that are open to me now, and all that will open to me in the future. Instead, however, I am forced to chose only one of them. What a waste.

[WhiteDragon103]

Furthermore, the fact that our very births were so infinitely improbable is just further reasons to not underestimate the worth of our existence. Perhaps if conditions were different, my consciousness would have been a mere blip of some obscure sensation that lasted for an instant. Instead, we are blessed with 5 immersing senses, and perhaps more. (Technically, there ARE more.)

[JonathanClement140]

Fucking agree!

Also, hey! You don't have MSN where you are, eh?

[WhiteDragon103]

I do, but I MUST get offline when my parents get back from their visit to the neighbors.

[Afriboy2007]

That is exactly the point I'm making. Our births are improbable and fantastic enough as it is. I still do not understand why it would be a good idea if people lost sight of that and strove for an eternal existence. Let me put to you this way: If a single individual had eternal life, the person would have to feel the pain of losing a family and friends over and over again, unless the person decides to live reclusively.

[Afriboy2007]

If the society gains and eternal existence, then it brings several issues, for example: 1. resources. If we can assume that we still need the necessities which ensure our survival yet are otherwise eternal, it would mean that more resources would be consumed to simply to ensure our survival. 2. Reproduction/Overpopulation. (This should have been 1. since it's an obvious issue) At some point the birth rate has to decrease for reasons relating to 1.

[Afriboy2007]

The point of reproduction is to ensure that the genes of the individual survive in the next generation in some form. One method to takle this issue since if people are eternal this won't be an issue, biogerontologist Aubrey De Grey suggested that to mantain the population, (sorry if it's a paraphrase) people who are satisfied can elect to die, so points 1 and 2, would in his view, not be much of a problem. 3. Ethics. A maintainable society has eternal life (continued...)

[Afriboy2007]

An individual with eternal life has a severe accident and now is in a persistent vegetative state. Would it be ethical to end the person's life, or allow the person to continue living? May I point out that this still an issue in our mortal lives. Now times that by infinity. 4. Urgency. Since you are an intelligent individual, you could find several things to do for your eternal life, although I doubt you'd continue doing things up until the inevitable heat death of the universe. (continued...)

[Afriboy2007]

While you probably could do countless things for an eternity, you cannot speak for everyone else. After all many people would think, "If have an eternity to do x so I don't have to do it right now" Now that all the things you could possibly do are open and can do it that whatever time they please they don't have to do them A.S.A.P. because they always have an eternity to do them. This is why I feel that one should take their brief, yet wonderful life as they can and not waste it.

[Afriboy2007]

A limited life regardless of whether it's 50 years, a hundred or even a thousand always brings urgency. An eternal life does not. I'd imagine those that do believe in the afterlife rationalize that since they're with God, they are already experiencing the ultimate pleasure so this isn't a problem. Somehow, I don't find an eternity bored and/or doing nothing very exciting even if you did spend a million years doing something.

[Afriboy2007]

The miracle of life, albeit relatively brief is arguablythe most fantastic miracle the universe had to offer this is why in my opinion, those you long for life times infinity have lost sight of how spectacular it really is, and have gotten greedy. I'll tell you in advance before you reply this is the penultimate point I'll ever point to you on this since, we haven't agreed on the worth of eternal life. However, you show a brilliant mind which had thought this through to my suprise. It was fun.

[WhiteDragon103]

You made the point that an eternal life would be a sad life in that you'd continuously re-experience the loss of any friends or family members you'd have. Then a few paragraphs down, you mentioned that one would be better off living for only a thousand years than forever. Either of these statements may be true, but the point here is a lack of consistency:

[WhiteDragon103]

If one was to have a life extension of a thousand years, he too would have to frequently cope with loss. Perhaps a simmilar issue could be made against any one's gain, like perhaps someone moving to a wealthy country and leaving his starving family and friends behind. This issue you mention here isn't one of immortality but rather class separation defined by different standards of living.

[WhiteDragon103]

The reason I call this a lack of consistency is because I'm assuming you are an advocate of improving standards of living - other than immortality.

Also, as you said yourself, the issue with euthenasia is an issue we have to deal with regardless of immortality. It is an entirely separate topic and it follows the same pattern; you can multiply the problem by infinity, by a thousand, or by 10.

[WhiteDragon103]

I've divided my response in four parts. This is part one. I will gradually post all the parts once I find time to.

[WhiteDragon103]

Actually, make that five.

[WhiteDragon103]

I've enjoyed coming up with possible ways an immortal society would cope with overpopulation. I dislike the idea that in order to allow birth one must first die. However, I understand the strategic value in that - it balances population with the earth's capacity for human life. But what is that capacity?

[WhiteDragon103]

To cope with overpopulation there are two things one can do:

- Decrease the consumption of resources.

or

- Increase the resources.

There are two ways to decrease resource consumption:

1) Reduce the population size - quick, effective, but with obvious moral drawbacks.

2) Reduce the amount of resources consumed per member of the population.

The most effective way to do this would be to convert the population into energy-efficient microchips that are jacked into a virtual universe.

[WhiteDragon103]

But obviously, that is a long ways into the future. It would be a very dramatic change and perhaps not everyone would be comfortable with it. Perhaps humans could be genetically engineered to need less food?

I think the most comfortable and practical solution would be to allow people to have a child only if they own the resources needed to give that child a reasonable standard of living. They could aquire these resources from deceased relatives, or they could create them.

[WhiteDragon103]

The technicalities, loopholes and what-if's of such a policy could be worked, no doubt. In fact, I think a system based around this concept should be in place already.

With such a system, however, it would ensure that Earth's full capacity for life is reached.

Keep in mind though, that as our technology grows we will have new strategies to make better use of resources. Here are some examples:

[WhiteDragon103]

- Increased land cultivation. Perhaps in the future there will be ways to make land more fertile.

- Agricultural skyscrapers. Allow more food to be grown on the earth's surface by growing food upwards. (This is already in practice.) Perhaps in the future, we will have a second or third "crust" hovering above the earth.

- Solar energy. Making earth a one-way system. That is, energy from the sun may enter, but not be reflected into space where it is useless.

(Etc.)

[WhiteDragon103]

By the time we have exhausted every possible way to increase earth's capacity for life, we would have probably found another planet to live on. And by then, perhaps most of the population would be microchips that only need an apple's worth of energy per day to keep running.

Overpopulation shouldn't be a concern if we give our technology time to grow, and if we are open minded to change.

(Continued later...)

[WhiteDragon103]

(Keep in mind that if one's right to have children depends on earth's capacity for life, technology that would increase earth's capacity would be in high demand and would probably develop rapidly because of this.)

[laservius]

It's interesting, the things that you stated are exactly like what I have thought. The point about Gandhi is what caused me to stop being a Christian. It wasn't Gandhi exactly, but any peaceful loving person who wasn't Christian would suffer for eternity. That is an all loving god? Humans have higher moral standards than that. What crime would ever justify an eternity of suffering? Just because I picked the wrong religion, or grew up in the wrong part of the world? What a truly sick god.