Paschal's Wager

[Temptuous2112]

Pascal had no understanding in him. To merely say "I believe in Jesus" is nothing! If you believe in truth, honor, decency, respect and kindness and scripture then you believe in Christ. This is Christ Jesus personality, the essence of him. How do you know a person except by their ways, by their personality? Even if a man becomes deformed beyond recognition he is still the same man even if he cannot not be recognized outwardly. Too many see Christ as a photograph as a single word.

[Rawk4Life]

I pose this question to you: If there is no God, and we just happened upon Earth by accident, then WHY are we here? Why try to accomplish good things on Earth if there's nothing to look forward to beyond the grave? Atheists disclose any notion that gods of any kind can exist without proof. There's no point in arguing "what if some other religion is correct?" to an Atheist if they have already rejected the doctrines of Christianity since it claims to be the most infallible of belief systems.

[RedBooster]

Because we believe there is no reason, we try to accomplish good things because a simple thing called empathy. We don't force ourselves not to believe in the Christian God, it's because there is a deficit of evidence that force us to be persuaded to the contrary. The idea that you only do good things because there is something beyond the grave is a selfish, narcissistic view of reality.

[Rawk4Life]

So what are you living for if there is nothing left when you die? If life ends after you die, then NOTHING you accomplished on Earth will have any significance to you personally because you won't be alive to see if whether or not it impacted others. If there is no God, how are you living a better life than I am and why is there need for debate on the matter?

[RedBooster]

I don't live for personal gain. I do good things to live up to a personal quota. I don't need to see results to know what I have done is right.

[rocksoli4]

I love Jesus because he gives me life forgiveness of sin a purpose to live and a friend to have confidence For the last 23 yrs He has never let me down. he is not natural but supernatural Knowing I have eternal life and if my family die I will see them again fills me with a peace that surpasses all understanding. Jesus said You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. Its a good deal.

[rocksoli4]

. Hell is for eternity because what God has made cannot be destroyed , you will live on after death but in regret that you never made it to the presence of God and all that is good in life. Simple equation God is all around us, He came in human form to die for us and heal us from sin. When we realise this it changes our perception of God He loves you he died for you that you may have life forever.

[rocksoli4]

If I lived on a disease free island inhabited by healthy people it would be totally irresponsible of me to allow anyone who has a deadly disease access to the island. God is saying that all have sinned and all will die that is fact Jesus has found a way through death and is crying out to people to take the cure. If you accept Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that he was raised from the dead you will be saved you will be healed.

[rocksoli4]

That's the old chesnut of "If it's true for you fine but I have my own truth".

How do you decide what is right and wrong in a relationship.

The best definition of love I know is in the bible 1 Cor 1:13. Have a read I would be interested in what you think of it.

[rocksoli4]

Jesus dealt with sin on the cross, your sin my sin the sin of everyman so that no one would suffer hell (separation from God in fact anyone who has not handed over their sin/cancer are the living dead you are actually separated from God by your sin).

7.Jesus said If you believe in me even though you die you shall live again now thats radical Im sticking with Jesus who people from the dead.

[rocksoli4]

If there was a cure for cancer and the guy who found the cure said you must take the antidote between the hours of 12pm and and8pm or else you will die. is he threatening you or is he trying to save you. He has discovered the cure thru many years of knowledge maybe he knows a bit more about the subject than you maybe the fact that many have already been cured is a testimony to the truth of what he is saying.

[freetaught]

Did the discoverer of the cure for cancer actually give me cancer? This would make quite a difference.

Christians believe that God is like a loving parent; but a loving parent doesn't just pull you out of the way of an oncoming car, they'd stop the harm from coming if they could.

Your treating the notion of God as if you believe that he found us in a state of illness rather than causing it. A god that would throw one in hell as a matter of opinion isn't a being of love.

[rocksoli4]

6. One can look at God's laws in two ways i.e. The negative that God want's to spoil all the fun with rules or the positive i.e. A loving father who instructs his children in the ways that bring life to relationships. Don't commit adultery why? because it destroys relationships do not steal, do not lie. If God created us He is entitled to try and protect us.

[freetaught]

The end of relationships should not be considered sins. Frienships end all the time. But this is not what Christians believe anyway. What about swinger couples? They remain together despite their activities. Or how about divorce in the event of unhappiness? Forced relationships seem terrible to me. Who can promise to love for life? If you fall out of love can you force yourself to love again? Or can you just walk up to a stranger and say "you're a nice enough person, lets marry"?

[rocksoli4]

@freetaught Love by definition is faithful. Jesus himself said The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. The flesh(our base human instinct) is in direct opposition to the things of the spirit. We know the right thing to do but we dont always do it ,example

. Its a good thing to give money to a starving childrens fund or disaster fund but we prefer to buy a new CD.

[rocksoli4]

@freetaught You seem to be saying that it is impossible to stay in love with someone that falling in and out of love is akin to falling in and out of bed.

Freetaught if you live your life on your feelings you will be sadly disappointed, they change daily with circumstances and pressure but when I said to my wife on our wedding day For better for worse forsaking all others I wed thee I meant what I said.

[rocksoli4]

@freetaught And because of my Christian teaching and my parents example of being faithful thru thick and thin and the spirit of God in me I will be a man of my word. This is the essence of manhood, faithfulness, kindness , gentleness honour ,self control. Many people believe that they are being honest with themselves if they succumb to how they feel. This is a counterfeit type of freedom.

[rocksoli4]

@freetaught Whereas the only way to really feel good about yourself is to be faithful and gentle and be a tender warrior. Your wife will love you for this your family will be there for you because you were there for them. Be a tender warrior not a whimpish modern man whose word means just for today, tomorrow I might feel different .

[freetaught]

When did I suggest that people cannot remain in love or suggest that falling in and love was like jumping in and out of bed? I appreciate the complexity of all relationships, be they romantic or otherwise; we each have the capacity and the right to define the perameters of such relationships. When our needs are not being sufficiently met we must move on. The end of such relationships can be painful but should not be considered sinful.

[rocksoli4]

In your comment below you say, Who can promise to love for life? If you fall out of love can you force yourself to love again.

If you say you love a football team you will stay loyal to your team. There may be days when you don't feel like even watching your team but you will always be loyal to them. Therefore one quality of love must be loyalty this is an easy concept. I disagree with you on your statement that we have the right to define the perameters of such relationships cont.

[freetaught]

The very notion that one must stay loyal to a "football team" is absurd! Just speaking for myself, I would never claim to love such a thing, especially if I must remain loyal to it.

And yes we do define the perameters of our own relationship, you included. Did you not select a mate that was attractive, interesting, funny, with values that may or may not be consistant with your own? Or dod your parents arrange your marriage for you?

[freetaught]

If your wife were to become an atheist, muslim, or satanist, this would not affect you or your decision to stay with her? What if she was physically abusive to you, your family, others? These would be your perameters.

[freetaught]

What is the benefit of keeping someone you desire with you based on a contract? If your wife/girlfriend didn't want to be with you would you pull the you-promised card?

[freetaught]

I must admit that I don't know where to come in with regard to what you have to say about "feelings". In one vain you seem to want to segregate them from your word, in another you suggest that only living in accord with qualifications that you've prescribed can you "feel good about yourself". In truth, our feelings compell us to all things we do, as they are always with us.

[freetaught]

What you may be attempting to do is suggest that people who end romatic relationships would only do so because they have succumbed to perhaps base animalistic desires? I don't know. If that is what you are saying (again,I'm not saying that you are) then I do not agree!

[freetaught]

As far as your definition of love goes--look a little deeper; the concept of love is so profound and complex that myriad books have been written on the subject; it has taken different forms, meanings and applications transculturally, socio-economically, religiously and philosophically. You may well define what love is for you, but not for the rest of us.

[rocksoli4]

5.The wonder of Gods creativity is all around usbut atheists have believed the lie of the big bang(i.e. we al came from a dot that spun round so fast that it exploded and all the galazies and stars and planets came from this dot. Boy you need a lot of faith to believe in that fairytale..Still we are all free to believe in whatever!!!

[rocksoli4]

When one experiences the washing of the soul it is like the cleansing of blocked arteries, you know a new vitality, a new joy of living life to the full and because of this you want to serve Jesus who has given given his life for you. My own experience of this joy has never left me in 23 yrs, its not natural it sounds crazy but its why Christians can never just work things out in logic alone.

[rocksoli4]

4.Just a thought. If God made all these rules and we break them why does he forgive us when we ask Him to forgive us. Its as obvious as the nose on your face that The rules are not to punish (the actions do the punishing i.e. Aids ,broken relationships, unwanted children etc.) The rules are a standard that enhances great relationships. God hates sin NOT SINNERS. HE LOVES EVERYMAN, thats why he died,His precious blood coverscures/washes away all sin.

[freetaught]

Why would any one be punished for any crime? This depends on what kind of outcome is intended. Punishement may function as a deterrent for that criminal, or as a deterrent for others. Punishments do not, however, correct wrongs that have been done. What would be the point in causing one to suffer for eternity? Many of God's alleged rules are arbitrary, they hurt no one. The punishement is too extreme for any offence; and it's logically inconsistant with the notion of a merciful God.

[nataliesilva07]

Hey I'm Natalie...

I'm skeptical, doubtful. But also a follower of Jesus. I chose to believe. Belief in itself is so powerful. It opens a door to see the answers to hopes and desires. Anyhow, eternal punishment has often been a pondering of mine. Jesus talks about Sheol(the Jewish grave, or hell) as a place of weeping, gnashing of teeth. When He died, He bridged this constant separation from God humans have chose over the centuries. Jesus offers new life here on Earth and for eternity.

[PhysicsGuerrilla]

@nataliesilva07 There were several scholars that lived during and soon after the alleged time of 'Jesus'. These scholars recorded history from Rome to Greece to Egypt and in the surrounding Hebrew lands. Now what would cause these academic scribes and historians to totally miss out on the 'King of Mans' entire life? Because there never was a 'Jesus'; thats why. Please wake up, life is not a placebo with an afterlife, it is real, and now. Live your life to its fullest and stop dreaming....Peace:)

[rocksoli4]

2. How do you know you won't catch some STD IF NOT AIDS. Telling kids to wear a condom is like telling them to play Russian Roulete with a crash helmet on.

3.Its a beautiful thing to keep pure for the one you are to marry.

[rocksoli4]

You miss the whole point of God's love. For example I would tell my children out of love for them not to have sex outside of marriage for 3 reasons.

1. Sex does not equal love a lot of it can be lust. If you have sex with someone casually you can think youre in love with them marry them and 2/3 years later discover your with the wrong person.

[freetaught]

I presume the comment with the other two reasons didn't post, so I must be contented with adressing the first.

I have never heard anyone claim that sex is equivicable to love. There are many people who we love who we would not even think of having such relations with.

Sex is, however, a great pleasure; orgasms are perhaps the greatest pleasure in the world, at least according to my experience.

I don't find that discouraging pleasure when it doesn't hurt another, is a good thing.

[czorbin]

buy a tripod please. very valid points but I can't watch anymore.

[JLinnst]

Pascal's wager is still strong and interesting. You cannot put up a satisfying reputation of it. That is why you call it bullsh*t. You have to resort to profanity to fight its strength. The first part of your argument was interesting. What about Islam and its guarantee of paradise by being a muslim - and hell for non muslims. Ok. But take a look at Islam. Take a look at Mohammed the rapist and pedophile. Do you really think that guy has anything to do with God??

[pcwildcat]

@JLinnst hahaha, he just spent 4 minutes dismantling pascal's wager and then he says one curse word and you go apeshit about it. And what's this nonsense about mohammed being evil? Take a look at the christian god and get rid of your double standard, moron.

[JLinnst]

Mohammed was a very evil guy. He was the founder of deadly cult called islam.

[pcwildcat]

@JLinnst you are an example of the intolerance christianity breeds

[JLinnst]

You gotta study what Mohammed was like, dude. The fact is that you just can't handle the truth - or simply ignorant. Have you read any biography of Mohammed??

[pcwildcat]

@JLinnst no, and i don't intend to. my point is that you can easily disregard all of the bad things your god did but at the same time point out everything wrong with other religions

[JLinnst]

You should study Islam in detail - including the life of Mohammed 'the prophet'. You will understand the world issues like Islamic terrorism better. Ask me any question about islam. I will explain and back it up with historical facts.

[pcwildcat]

@JLinnst Even if Islam is 'evil' like you claim, it doesn't make christianity any better. Besides, I don't care to learn about Islam, just like I don't care to learn about other religions

[JLinnst]

You are wrong about Christianity. Christianity is a lot better than Islam. Because Jesus is a lot better person than Mohammed.

Mohammed will KILL you because you do not worship his stupid Allah god. Jesus will heal you if you have any sickness. See the difference?

[pcwildcat]

@JLinnst i don't give a fuck. you keep comparing christianity and islam when thats not the point at all

[JLinnst]

You accused me of being 'intolerant' because I am opposed to Islam. I have been explaining to you why I believe Islam is dangerous.

[pcwildcat]

@JLinnst thats true, but i don't want to learn about it so lets just drop this and stop hogging the comment section to ourselves

[JLinnst]

I am just telling you things you are not aware of.

[caw2caw]

Who says god must be good?

[JLinnst]

Some gods are real bad. Aztec's killer god for example. And Islam's Allah has some real problem the way he tells muslims to terrorize non muslims. We must oppose these bad gods.

[caw2caw]

Yes, but my point was, why must THE god necessarily be good? A god being good or bad has no bearing on whenever it exists or not.

What if the true god is an evil s o b, who wants us to be bad, and if you're good you'll get no reward/heaven/etc.

[JLinnst]

I apologize for missing the point. Yes, you need to have real encounter with God to realize that He is good. You have to interact with God ( like hearing His voice ) and find out that God is indeed love. This was a great discovery for Christians.

[DancingInChains]

Uhm... that hat makes you look like VenomFangX plus 10 or so years *lol*

luckily, unlike him, what you say actually makes sense. I was just struck by the optical similarity in some frames :D

[standinstann]

Yeah, if Atheists are wrong they go to hell so let's all be dishonest, lie to our selves, and pretend to believe in and worship God to cover our ass.

If God exists, I'm sure that's how he wants us to think, behave, and know him.

*sigh*

[XsmashX1]

If users know who you are and what you look like, they'll know who ABC is...

[Corinthians1510]

Wait, are you saying it's not risky to be an Atheist? Atheism is the riskiest choice because if ANY of those religions are RIGHT you are going to hell. Christianity is just the safest because the smartest countries in the world accept it as their primary religion for the most part.

[freetaught]

What you seem to be saying is that religion should be treated as a lottery:

rather than assume the Paschal approach that Christianity vs Atheism's consequences are 50-50 (which is demonstrable false) you are asserting that at least one religion must be true, or is likely to be so, so just pick one to increase your chances of a positive post-life outcome. This is irrational. What kind of deity would reward such conduct?

[freetaught]

This life that I am living has value. And as long as I am living it, and I will not compromise my opportunity to live a happy and fulfilling life by randomly choosing one of the irrational religious dogmas to live by. It's also worth noting that all religions do not teach that there is a hell, so based on your position, as I understand it, I should also dismiss these religions along with atheism because if they're wrong I will go to hell.

Is there no virtue in pursuing the truth?

[freetaught]

Is it fair to assume that you are religious for the love of the love of God or fear of consequences. If the former is why you are religious, then why do you appeal to me with the latter?

[freezingstill]

Cor, I'm not sure athiesm is a 'choice' in that sense, ie. thinking something is false and not being convinced of it isn't a choice, is it? Just curious, do you believe that Jesus, who is supposed to be a god of Grace, will punish people for not believing messengers and preachers who are known liars, and uncredible? Does God judge us for not belieing hearsay? And if I reject preachers who are human and falliable(or liars), is that the same as rejecting God?

[JLinnst]

Excellent point, Corinthian. Atheism is the riskiest position. Agnosticism is a far safer and reasonable choice.  And if one is an open minded agnostic, he is likely to become a Christian after reading the Bible carefully.

[richardshortfan]

what about God is supposed to be all knowing? Wouldn't he realize that the person isn't sincere in their belief, but just did it out of fear? Oh wait, God does want us to believe in fear.

[InReasonWeTrust]

Far more disquieting than Pascal's Wager is Falwell's Wager ....

If you believe in a Christian God(s) and there is a heaven, you end up spending eternity with Jerry Falwell; but if you're wrong, eternity is infinitely better (whether it's simply gnashing of teeth or simple separation from Scary Jerry and his left-hand God).

[InReasonWeTrust]

A simple choice.

[Parazitas999]

Pascal lived in middle ages. I don't think he devalued life - it really was not that valuable. No medicine, poor education, each day a struggle for a lot of people - I thin it really was of little value to a lot of people. And also in those times individuality was not a virtue. People valued global goals more not individual achievements, so naturally individual life was not valued.

[freetaught]

I think that it's easy to place Paschal in the enlightenment period but this is inconsequential.The people did have medicine (albeit not as sophisticated as we have today), education was not "poor" in the sense that it was inefficent, but rather was not as valued as it is in contemporary society. I do not believe that these things caused people to place little value on their lives. I don't think that Paschal believed life was worthless but for the purpose of his argument he potrayed it as such.

[shadyvista]

If belief were subject to ones will, then our faculties of reason, observation and experience would be arbitrary. If humans really want to know things, they have to compartmentalize the emotional reflex from the rational and reasonable abilities. Religion with its fear and guilt system of dogma shows its true motives. Remove the infinite threat of hell from the system, and see how many would still profess belief. I would "Wager" very few.

[juliohopscotch]

fuck yeah. free taught you need to post more.

[freetaught]

I may just do that. Thanks!

[HaleyMary]

the problem I have with Pascal's wager is it focuses on the Christian God, right? Why would Christians think their wager for believing in Jesus as the son of God is right when there are many many different religions in the world?

great video, keep up the great work. :)

[freetaught]

Theists usually give their own God preferential treament. I've had many discussions with theists in which I heard them say something to the effect of "I've experienced all of the religions but Cristianity makes the most sense." How fortunate for all of these people that they just happened to be born into a faith that is just as lacking in evidence as any other but still happens to be true.

[AncientAtheist]

Flaw # 3 -

How does one accept the wager if one doesn't believe? By *declaring* that one now believes? Wouldn't god know that the person is faking?

[OnTheFritz602]

"By *declaring* that one now believes? Wouldn't god know that the person is faking? "

------

When this *wager* was posed to me some 15 years ago before I even knew what it was called, that's the first thing that popped into my head!

Then of course all the other religions, which makes perfect sense to the non-believer, but to the believer that's just preposterous to suggest another religion might trump their own!

[AncientAtheist]

Yes, it's funny how they are as atheistic as we are when it comes to every other religion.

[stevepalmerssolid]

Depends on how shallow the judgement is. I don't think most christians would accept P. wager nor would any other religion come to that. It would not be official doctrine anyway.

[onlywhenprovoked]

well put.

it amazes me that people think this is a good argument for believing in one of 1000s of reality defying deities.

[philhellenes]

Firstly, Shock is 100% pure sociopath (slime).

Secondly, and far more importantly, I agree about Blaise Pascal. I'm always highly suspicious when a remarkable mind says something so utterly dumb and devoid of reasoning, and at odds with the obvious capacity of the mind concerned. Smart people does NOT mean honest people.

[iconoclastic23]

That Shock fellow is unctuous and creepy. People who embrace Pascal's Wager with such zeal just come off as bullies and psychological terrorists. I'm thankful that I don't have to deal with any in my daily life, all the "wagerers" I've seen have been on the internet where I can simply choose not to have anything to do with them.

[farvision]

A direct link (full url) in your video description would help. Thanks for putting out such a clear argument.

[Saukko31]

Yeah, and I would like to add that why is the faith a deciding factor here, why does Christianity teaches anything about morality if in the end those don't even count.

Another thing is sincerity, can you say that your faith is sincere if you only believe because of fear?

Pascal's wager fails at so many levels.

[SmtrPhilosopherRedux]

I think you did a better job with your response than I did with mine...in fact I'm sure of it... lol

Keep up the good work.

[GoMetricToday]

When in the course of conversation with a faith based person, they throw out Pascal's Wager, then I will end the conversation. From that point on it will be apparent that they aren't willing to listen to anything I have to say.