P.S. I forgot to say that the lithium ion batteries in 2008 (date of the vid) really did only around 400 charges but FULL charges, not partial. Your everyday car has a flooded lead acid battery in it that only handles like 15/30 full charge/discharge cycles, but it lasts you some years using it everyday with partial charges doesn't it? Learn something more about how batteries behave and you will realize that your math is completely wrong.
@WXIIIR Actually, I use lithium batteries almost every day -- and in applications that are not too dissimilar to EV use. I was just remarking the other day that the packs I'm presently using have about 200 cycles on them (partial cycles -- I seldom discharge below about 45%) and are already showing signs of reduced capacity and increased internal resistance. These are "state of the art" packs purchased about 18 months ago. There have been no major changes to cells since then.
@xjet and how much do you think they can take up to the point where they will only store 50% of the original capacity? Are you saying that lithium batteries are less durable than lead acid? I use 2x20ah 12v SLA batteries on my electric bicycle and i only use them to half capacity every time they have around 200 partial charges and still hold around 80 to 90% of the original capacity. Also my cell phone uses lithium, 5 years charging every day it lasts 2~3 days (originally was around 5).
@WXIIIR Lithium cells work very well with low charge and discharge rates but when you start trying to push current in and pull it out quickly, you get a much lower cycle-life. That's why your mobile phone works so well with a lithium battery but higher-drain devices (like EVs) are not so good. LiFePO4 looks like the best battery technology right now for cycle-life. Even in high drain/recharge use they have cycle-lives in excess of 1000 and sometimes 2000 cycles.
@xjet Agreed, LiFePO4 is a very good technology. Nowadays EV's have a high drain for sure, i didn't factored that so you are absolutely right. But it's stupid though, because they don't need to, and shouldn't have so high drain (but unfortunately they do). What is the point in sticking a 100hp(ish) electric motor in an electric car (like prius or leaf)? I did the math once and nowadays electric cars consume almost the same amount of energy as fossil fuel cars because of being poorly engineered.
@xjet Just remembered something. Do you do fast charging? On the cell phone example charging takes around 30min (bigger the battery longer the time) and on the electric bike a full charge would take 10hours (but only around 6 because i only use half capacity). Fast charging affects batteries very much, equalization, maintenance and topping charges are required for good battery life (if you also have a state of the art charger and plug the batteries regularly it takes care of that for you)
@WXIIIR yes, as I said -- charge rate (and discharge rate) are important factors. The problem with EVs is that to be viable as anything other than a commuter vehicle, there has to be some form of quick-charge capability. Li-Ion as we currently know it is not going to cut it. New battery technology will be the answer -- and there are plenty who say "in 5 years we will...." but right now, nothing.
I agree with some stuff but, for example, you talked about the prius. Any fairly competent mechanic can build you a car on a crappy garage (or alter an already made one) to run purely on electricity that will use a lot less than a prius. Petrol companies and car companies are a mutual and dynamic conspiracy/deal, petrol companies don't have any interest whatsoever in having too many fuel guzzling cars running around if you think of it with some clarity.
@WXIIIR The current workshops who convert petrol cars into electric ones do so using the existing inefficient running gear and driveline. Most of them also still rely on lead acid batteries.
This results in lousy acceleration and lousy range, for a stupid price.
@chappy0061 I didn't even talked about conversion. A guy that lives near me converted a fiat 127 in his garage and put a 15hp brushless motor and lead acid batteries, it reaches 130km/h, has around 120km of range on 50% charge, if it had lithium instead of lead it would have around 600km range on half charge with the same weight (around 800kg). Electric production cars aren't better yet because brands don't want them to. If you do your own EV (even if its a bike) and some math you will confirm
Good vid. There is another cost factor you left out which I think is also a very important issue. I go to the pump and fill up my vehicle and with paying and all I'm done in approx. 10 minutes. Charging an electric car takes /hours/. Time is worth money too. What if you suddenly have to go out during the night ?
i doubt that power plants are running at 100% capacity, think of all the wasted electricity not being used but generated. also "Tesla expects the battery to retain approximately 70% of its initial capacity after seven years or 100,000 miles." that'd be cool, but thats comming from their website. damn shame that there isnt any plans to use electric vehicles and nuclear power plants and breeder reactors.
Funny thing people always take Tesla Roadster as the "good" example. It has HUGE and expensive battery. Not something any of us "normal people" would buy. A mere 25kWh lithium-iron-phosphate battery would work just fine in an average electric car like a Nissan Leaf. And with current prices, its about $7000. Just that you know, these large scale automotive batteries last more than 2000 full recharge cycles or around 10 years, minimum. And after that they are 97-99% recycled. Not wasted.
well you make some valid points in this vid, no doubt about that ..but what is the answer? surely battery electric cars will have a significant role to play in the future, we're just not going to be able to switch straight from petrol to hydrogen.
I notice the comments that are too hard to refute get ignored....
xjet, dude, wake up and embrace the technology.
Where in your calculations do you include the life expectancy of an ICE engine, the regular service intervals and associated running costs?
Electric cars absolutely smoke (mind the pun) ICE vehicles, they can acquire electrical energy from pig crap to wind and have less maintenance. As I commented before - "Go back to the scrap heap, you belong there".
@cmusty But you know what? 99.9% of all the vehicles on our roads are *still* using internal combustion engines! Sure, eventually EVs will become practical -- but not yeat, and certainly not when I made this video some 2 years ago.
@xjet The argument you just gave is textbook straw man. May I suggest it will be 100 years before electric vehicles are a majority - does this mean electrics are "shite" and we should continue using ICE? NO!
Your whole "certainly some day but not yet" statement is a diplomatic convenience when you realize your arguments are false and pulled from thin air.
@cmusty It's not about when "electric vehicles are a majority" -- it's about when electric vehicles are even practical. If they *were* practical right now, with oil prices soaring, why aren't people using them? Simple -- because they're *not* yet practical. Not rocket-science.
@xjet Define practical then. ICE engines have compromises but your probably so used to them that you ignore it. To answer your questions, its oil companies suppressing technology and poor old fools like yourself believing that ICE are the only way to go. Its not rocket science its not even science - its politics.
@cmusty The old "oil company conspiracy" theory again. Try Occam's Razor -- it's far more appropriate. The oil companies don't own the technology behind EVs so why haven't independent EV manufacturers like Tesla gained huge market-share then? Simple: because the technology is not yet practical as replacement for the ICE. Conspiracy theories are not a substitute for the lack of credible facts.
@xjet The old "oil company conspiracy" theory denial again. Try reality, its far more appropriate. Nuts like you spouting falsities and companies discrediting EV's are part of the reason they don't have huge market share. EV technology is practical right now, people are just too in love with oil and ICE. A conspiracy theory is only a conspiracy with out the proof - there is plenty of proof with oil companies killing off innovation.
@cmusty Okay then, tell me how the oil companies are crippling Tesla Motors. Where's your evidence? In fact, show me *any* evidence that the oil companies are suppressing EVs.
@xjet Your old enough and I would hope smart enough to use a tool like Google. Try it some time.
Check out a guy named Victor Kilimov. He has developed and scientifically proven that a device the size of a postage stamp is capable of delivering enough energy to power a vehicle like a roadster without batteries. Tesla (the man) developed this 100 years ago yet was discredited by JP Morgan when he could not slap a meter on it. Oil controls you in ways you cannot imagine.
totaly agrea with u m8 no offence to Robert but damn how many times in the uk do u see a fully electric car not much at all it rlly it more expensive dont even need to think about how much it would cosy. a nother thing for Robert top gear made there own electric car any they didnt get very far they have driven a few electric cars n theres just nothing there im a car mad type of person and i know a hell of a lot about cars electric cars will never be as good as just a normal unleaded car
-400 charge/discharge cycles is in the past. At my university research group here we are able to get thousands of charge (3000 to 4000) so this will change as well when the technology develops
-finally the doubling of electrcity consumption will not translate into a doubling of the electrical bill for everyone because most people can charge when electricity is not used and cheap (night time). This also applies to the construction of new power plants that will not double for the same reason.
Hi from Canada! I may respectfully disagree with your argument. Robert has the most sensible point of view in my opinion. Here is why:
-you mentionned rightly that Robert omitted to take into account the price of the battery which is outrageously expensive now. This is true but remember that this a NEW technology with almost no economy of scale at work. This will change sunstentially when more than a few thousands of E-car are made each year
This video (whilst years old now) ignored one crucial aspect of LiIon battery technology...
Just like Lead Acid batteries, it's actually a simple (and relatively affordable) matter to recondition a Lithium Ion battery, without replacing any cells. LiIon cells stop holding a charge because they deionize. Re-Ionizing them is VERY simple, and cheap! £200 at most! Do it for laptop cells all the time. Bob, want me to ionize your iMiev battery for you?
You make a good point about the batteries, battery life, etc... However. Do you think gas prices will go down. NO!!! Totally weakens your point mate. Every day Lithium battery technology and other battery technologies improve. The biggest problem with running on these batteries is the range per full charge. For these to really become practical at the present time, car/battery companies will have to provide a way that we can change fully charged batteries out on the fly while on the road.
@Beulzabob You are dead-right. Eventually, electric vehicles will become practical and affordable. The reality however, is that we're still a fair way out from that point and Robert is talking about *NOW* -- not 15-20 years up the track.
Thank you.. thank you!!!! I have been arguing with people for a few years about this same thing. They say "well it is more environmentally friendly than a petrol". If everyone drove electric vehicles, then we would need more power plants and plus the cost to dispose of the batteries. I could go on and on about this. Thanks again, finally someone who agrees with me.
Been investigating electric vehicles for a while now and unfortunately xjet makes a valid argument. EV technology is truly exciting but you still can't make an electric vehicle that will not ultimately cause as much harm (or maybe even more) than a gas powered vehicle. The only exceptions might be if you can power the EV via solar, hydro or wind. Even then you still have to factor in range and longevity of batteries. And where do old batteries go to die?
Whilst I'm a supporter of electric cars, I acknowledge your views. At least you do back up your points with facts. Although now the video is a little old, with the LEAF and I-MIEV rolling out...and also gas prices are going up even higher, I think electric cars are becoming more of a viable option. In regards to the conspiracy, I believe electric car technology was stifled as opposed to making vehicles more gas efficient. Anyway, it's good to hear your views in a constructive manner.
@SuperPianowizard No, no it's not. Electric power simply shifts the point of pollution from the vehicle to the electricity generation facility. In the case of the USA that's mainly coal. In the case of the UK that's a whole lot of NUCLEAR power stations. Now tell me that's a good thing? I'd rather put up with a bit of smog than the kind of pollution the people of Fukushima are facing right now.
@xjet True, we do have a lot of Nuclear Power plants in th UK. You have proven me wrong and i feel so sorry for what Fukushima have been going through and i wish them all the best and hope that they are all safe and get back to there daily lives soon.
Very interesting video, never took into consideration that batt. replacement cost. I'd rather the gas powered Elise anyway, much lighter. I'd just buy a carbon offset.
@cbcdesign If the only temperature management required is adjustment of the charging voltage, why do most manufacturers fit fans/temperature controllers to the battery systems? Quotes.... "Tesla uses what Musk described as active liquid thermal control, while the LEAF pack uses an air cooling system"
@cbcdesign When calculating operating costs you also have to consider that the battery has only a limited number of charge/discharge cycles -- whereas your petrol tank can be refilled an unlimited number of times and it'll hold the same amount each time. With the battery packs being so expensive and requiring regular replacement, the cost-savings of an EV may not be anywhere near what you think. In fact, you'll be shocked at how little you save when you do the math.
Electric cars could be the future. They could have small Jet/Gas-Turbine engines to generate the electricity. They would still have batteries or capacitors to serve as an energy buffer, but the problem of not having sufficient electric charge would be solved. The Toyota Prius is like putting sails on a paddle-steamer because the reciprocating combustion engine is so inefficient; the electric motor having to cart it around.
Wrong on so many levels, batteries are far more capable than 400 charges, did you calculate the engine replacement and servicing in the cost of an ICE age engine? Even if we were to build coal fired plants to provide 2X the electricity we would still use less carbon in a Roadster. What is your opinion of the model S? it will be affordable and land in stores soon. Go back to the scrap heap with your old technology - it suits you.
@wingpilot87 Still got that caps-lock problem eh? Try some WD40. And I invite you to shoot my arguments down in flames by pointing me to where I can buy an affordable electric vehicle off the dealer's showroom floor. What's that? There are no affordable electrics? Kind of proves my point doesn't it?
Bruce Simpson (xjet) is INTELLECTUALLY Bankrupt, COMPLETE lies!! I Don't CARE if he posted it in 2008! INCREDIBLE lithium batteries for VEHICLES have been READILY available for several years! If you are EAGER for the truth watch Jack Rickard's videos! web.me.com/mjrickard/ & on youtube... "1 A Convenient Response to an Inconvenient Truth - EV"
@wingpilot87 Thanks for your valuable feedback. I think you caps-lock key needs attention though. It's now two years since I posted that video -- and still we *still* don't see any affordable electric vehicles on sale in high-street car dealerships. Yet I guess you're right, I must be lying. Mea culpa.
Regardless of the battery technology/type, they have limited lifespan. Some mobile phones and laptops use the very latest battery technology, but you won't get 10,000 cycles out of any of them.
Anyone who has physical proof of 10,000 cycle batteries, post video proof. Not a salespersons figures.
Electric vehicles ARE the future, but not powered by rechargeable batteries - at least in the long term. They are to heavy, require temperature management and take too long to charge.
@c53204 Bruce Simpson (xjet) is INTELLECTUALLY Bankrupt, COMPLETE lies!! I Don't CARE if he posted it in 2008! INCREDIBLE lithium batteries for VEHICLES have been READILY available for several years! If you are EAGER for the truth watch Jack Rickard's videos! web.me.com/mjrickard/ & on youtube... "1 A Convenient Response to an Inconvenient Truth - EV"
@c53204 An engine lasts for a limited Time too... And here is a fact:
An engine with the Power of the teslas lasts for about 100.000 Kilometers befor it needs to be checked and or repaired... The Batteries last (in the Tesla roadster) for (200 miles * 500 (lets go with a small number just to make a point... there are Lithium Batteries today that can do about 3 to 5000 cycles) = 100.000 miles)
Think of what you're saying... (Tesla Roadster has Garantie until 100.000 miles)
you raise some very gd points, some have obvious answers. I gave thumbs down just because of errors in your facts and some what short sightedness.
How ever I agree people in the media driven world dont fully look into the facts and figures and specifics of a product or service. I have high hopes for the ev it may not be "cheaper" but if done right should be better for the world we live in.
An update to my earlier point. High Density Ultracapacitors made from graphene that store around 136 Whrs/kg or a similar amount to Nimh batteries of around ten years ago. It might not sound impressive, but when they can be charged in seconds or a maximum of 2 minutes, and can store large amounts of regenerated breaking energy. You could effectively have a small capacitor that stored energy and a back up supply of say 10-20miles of energy that could be charged in seconds for small trips
Bruce Simpson (xjet) is INTELLECTUALLY Bankrupt, COMPLETE lies!! I Don't CARE if he posted it in 2008! INCREDIBLE lithium batteries for VEHICLES have been READILY available for several years! If you are EAGER for the truth watch Jack Rickard's videos! web.me.com/mjrickard/ & on youtube... "1 A Convenient Response to an Inconvenient Truth - EV"
Bruce Simpson (xjet) is INTELLECTUALLY Bankrupt, COMPLETE lies!! I Don't CARE if he posted it in 2008! INCREDIBLE lithium batteries for VEHICLES have been READILY available for several years! If you are EAGER for the truth watch Jack Rickard's videos! web.me.com/mjrickard/ & on youtube... "1 A Convenient Response to an Inconvenient Truth - EV"
@Mrtestdrivex Bruce Simpson (xjet) is INTELLECTUALLY Bankrupt, COMPLETE lies!! I Don't CARE if he posted it in 2008! INCREDIBLE lithium batteries for VEHICLES have been READILY available for several years! If you are EAGER for the truth watch Jack Rickard's videos! web.me.com/mjrickard/ & on youtube... "1 A Convenient Response to an Inconvenient Truth - EV"
@EinBick You are not seeing the jenious of Hydrogen Internal combustion enjines, There are 0 emmisions, 50% better power output and only emmits water!! Replacing Petrolium, Shitty Diesel, and snot box electric cars. YOU WILL BE BUT IN YOUR PLACE BY THE PEOPLE OF TOMORROM THAT LIVE TODAY!!!
@Mrtestdrivex I didn't adress you I adressed the video...
and the Hydrogen has to be produced... Think about that... you can't just grab it out of the air....
Also an engine needs grease to run.... and only water doesn't do that... Yet you're right, they would be good engines too... but the process to get Hydrogen still needs to much energie..
If you are comparing running costs between conventional cars and elec cars then the debate will go on fore ever.But lets compare being totally self sufficient and being held ransom by oil companies.Total freedom where it be religious,financial,health etc... is priceless,its what millions have died for,wars have been started and finished due to freedom.Its a choice we don't have right now.People and countries make trillions annually with oil.How much is the electric car really worth?
Well, at leat Your contra-rant has got people thinking. I still prefer electrics, if only for the simple fact that ANY form of energy can be used to charge batteries.
And Your criticism of Tesla's "running-cost" is a bit beside the point. How "handy" is a Murcielago? What does it cost to maintain a 360 ferrari? Tesla's roadster is a "toy for the rich" no more, nor less. same will be true for the Fisker. Yet, it's a start.
"automobiles" started as toys for the European aristocracy.
It's true what the guy says in the video, all batteries no matter what type only have a certain life span and they are not able to hold a recharge after a while. If a replacement costs as much as what he says it's a very expensive way to save a few dollars in gas by buying a car which relies on one to operate. It's good technology but it will be a while before it's developed enough for it to be worthwhile.
Great video Bruce and totally agree with you on all points, it's nice to see someone like yourself who is not all caught up with the hype surrounding the Tesla Roadster/electric car and just looks at the up side of the idea without considering the negatives which in this case far outweigh the positives as you well point out, just because they saw it on an entertainment based show likeTop Gear! Albeit that many just don't like to hear the truth and prefer the glossy hype, keep up the good work.
@Voxson1 "...which in this case far outweigh the positives..."
I think you need to watch the video again. You seem to be misinformed, even if battery powered cars where limited to the number of cycles talked about (which they're not), there's a big difference between the handling of LiPo batteries and such in RC models and those used in electric cars.
So, that aside, and if given what is said here is true, they're still comparable EXCEPT that the EVs are still MUCH better for the environment.
@xjet lol it says hes been sucked by electric vehicles lol... keep working for bp instead of making shitty stupid hypocrat videos keep with your shitty polution because we in california are going green with our world famous tesla
@bonds911 Bruce Simpson (xjet) is INTELLECTUALLY Bankrupt, COMPLETE lies!! I Don't CARE if he posted it in 2008! INCREDIBLE lithium batteries for VEHICLES have been READILY available for several years! If you are EAGER for the truth watch Jack Rickard's videos! web.me.com/mjrickard/ & on youtube... "1 A Convenient Response to an Inconvenient Truth - EV"
Unfortunately, we need to replace fosil fuels before they run out. But bio fuels sucks too. What should we do then? I think that these electric/hydrogen technologies are good start. No, they are not flawless yet. It's the same with nuclear power plants. We are hoping to make thermonuclear fusion reactor, but still we need around 30 years. Funny thing is, that we are able to miniaturize electronics equipment, but we still sucks on batteries. The technology will come.
Bill, you are WRONG about the EV1. You can see films of people getting arrested. Even though they only had Li-on batterys.
WRONG about Tesla. They have LiFePo4 battery. 2,000 cycles to 80% value IF you totally discharge it every time. The natural cycle value of these is approx 10,000 recharges plus to 80%.
@m1aws There is a *very* interesting article on TheRegister regarding what GM are calling "range anxiety". It puts the Tesla Roadster's limitation in very sharp context. Go read it (TheRegister) is a dot-co-do-uk website.
Bruce Simpson (xjet) is INTELLECTUALLY Bankrupt, COMPLETE lies!! I Don't CARE if he posted it in 2008! INCREDIBLE lithium batteries for VEHICLES have been READILY available for several years! If you are EAGER for the truth watch Jack Rickard's videos! web.me.com/mjrickard/ & on youtube... "1 A Convenient Response to an Inconvenient Truth - EV"
id hate to see the lipo fire if one of those tesla's crashed, a 2s batt pack can do some real damage nevemind a 6000s pack, and i cant imagine they picked the cream of the lipo crop neither a 6000 cells per pack,so cycles might be well down from advertised as well if pushed hard or over drained
Good video. EVs just aren't ready yet. Here in Oxford we've got electric Mini's, made in Oxford, and whilst they look just like an ordinary Mini, they have awful range and cost a fortune to recharge. Your point about the grid being used overnight is very true - the grid now goes very quiet overnight, if everyone switched to EVs the grid wouldn't be able to cope. I'd love an EV but they're just not ready yet.
Think about our planet. Feel for it really.......We need to adopt this baby technology and grow it into a very practical and handy way of transportation.
My Tesla Sport battery has a 60k warranty. Have you ever paid for a tune-up on a V12 Ferrari or Lamborghini? With Lambo, you have to ship it to Italy every 10k mi. Sipping alone costs $15k. After my warranty expires, the Lambo with the same mileage would require 6 months in shipping cost $90k + the tune vs. $35k for my battery. Why compare my Sport to a Lambo? It's one of few cars as quick.
2) Not everyone will turn to electric cars just a small %, that's the plan. The grid can easily support the projected number of cars. (...every 3rd night charging )
3) Tesla is a bad example to use when discussing the feasibility of electric cars in general, its a high end vehicle.
4)You made a good point about cycle count/longevity of battery. This is an metric this is often overlooked.
5)What are you thoughts on peak oil? And oil spills?
@munteruk Remember that this video (mine) was posted over a year ago and was specifically directed to Robert's comments at the time he made his video. Yes, things have changed -- but even today (almost 18 months later) the EV is still not a cost-effective alternative to the ICE for the vast majority of people - and it won't be for quite some time (which was my point).
We have ample reason to stop using ICEs without carbon footprints, as I already stated, but Llewellyn gave a very competent answer in his video, if you had only stopped to watch it! And even then, he didn't even mention the full carbon impact of ICEs-- you want to point at EVs, but there is NO TECHNOLOGY that has no carbon footprint! As for gasoline use, an often overlooked carbon load is the support personnel at tanker dispatching stations! You HAVE to include them!
absolutely incorrect! There are multiple ways to refute that statement! In the documentary "who killed the Electric Car?", there are hundreds of owners of the EV-1, Toyota RAV-4 and others that had vigorous battles with the car makers when their leases were up, wanting to buy the cars out of lease. Some of them were even arrested rather than turn over the cars! GM et al towed the cars to the desert and crushed them despite very generous offers to buy the cars! Check your facts!
@billdale1 There's more "conspiracy" theory surrounding the EV-1 than 911. Don't take everything you read on the internet as fact. the EV1 was never economic and never would have been. Customers got them on leases which represented a massive loss to GM which only appeared to make them look economically viable.
@xjet That was the point of the EV-1. GM put in so much cutting edge technology to price it out of the range of the average consumer. EVs didn't fit their razor blade business model. Servicing is where the big profit is and electric cars require much less. So you are correct that the EV-1 was and never would be economically viable for GM as far as GM was concerned.
As for "conspiracies" why would Texaco/Chevron buy out NiMH patents and suppress large format packs. I wonder?
As I suggested, recent reports indicate that the resale value of today's EVs is absolutely awful. One respected UK motoring website suggests that when they reach 5-years of age, today's EVs will be worth just 10% of their original price. That's a big factor new-buyers need to consider and what I suggested in this video.
@xjet That report was pure speculation and quite a bit of nonsense. ICE vehicles only holding 25% of value after 5 years? Not even close, more like 50%. Whoever wrote that obviously hasn't tried to buy a used vehicle. As for an EV only having 10% value, more nonsense. A 5 year old vehicle stripped of the drive train is worth more than that, not to mention with an EV nothing will be even close to wearing out in 5 years. Even if you had to replace the pack the car is worth more than 10%.
You pretend that your original comments in your video are "amicable"! No way, anyone else can see that but you. Despite your condemnation of EVs as being "no solution", you offer no solution-- only roadblocks. Certainly to continue to use ICEs is no answer! Two years ago, gasoline was rising dramatically every week, and would have continued to skyrocket except for the huge economic collapse due in part to oil prices. People already began to turn to EVs and hybrids as respite!
@billdale1 I'm not saying that EVs will never be practical, simply that they are not yet practical - for all the reasons I cited and (as I just noted in another comment) one of the killers is now their rapid rate of depreciation. In 5-years time, you can expect to get no more than 10% of what you paid for a brand new EV today if you try to sell it. Add that depreciation to your per-mile running cost and see how economic they are right now!
@xjet Don't know. We eliminate the entire process of mining to machining of the ICE components, exhaust, transmission, 1.5 gallons of motor oil, and replace it with a smaller motor, controller, and batteries. Probably about the same in the end. Of course all testing of the EV is oil free as well.
@xjet Hmm I'm not sure where your coming from with this question, it's a little disingenuous. We have to draw a line somewhere. What next, how much C02 do the workers create?, how much air travel do they partake in per year whilst on holiday?.
Industry as a whole needs to wise up and cut back/save money. I think we need to concentrate on emissions first, from tailpipes and power sources.
The air quality benefits can't be ignored , even by the biggest of climate change sceptics
I have no interest in prolonging a dependence on horrendous BP and Middle East oil! With EVs and renewable energy, the hundreds of billions of dollars we currently spend on their increasingly expensive petroleum can then be spent more sanely on health, education, roads & bridges, & paying off our massive national debt. Every cent early adopters spend on EVs reduces the cost of EVs and renewable energy, reduces pollution, makes our streets quieter, & reduces congestion due to tanker trucks.
(cont'd) tremendous recent progress on EV tech to increase energy density (directly affecting cost and performance), you somehow assume progress is suddenly dead in the water! Nothing could be further from the truth! Several very promising technologies may end up making EVs even less expensive than ICE cars-- so just who do you think you are helping by such outrageous attacks? You should remove this piece of journalistic drivel from YouTube, and apologize to Bobby!
listen up, dirtbag! You start off by attacking Bobby in the most offensive terms, and then, when I force you to admit that he's not the one that is full of crap, you claim that EVs still are not "affordable", which is entirely objective, trying somehow for some reason I cannot imagine other than the fact that you're pig-headed, that EVs will be "truly in the future"... as if they will never be affordable! What's your problem, jackass?! Do you think that even though there has been (cont'd.)
@billdale1 Whereas you clearly would never use an offensive term would you (I guess "dirtback" is a term of endearment huh?). I know Bobby -- I've met him and worked with him. I doubt he's taking any offense to my comments. The thing that I've noticed in many discussions such as this is that the value of the comments being made is inversely proportional to the level of swearing and personal insult. I think that says it all.
why do U waste yr breath, maniac? You're a dilettante that has NO practical experience whatsoever with EVs (as JRP3 and I do), and until you do, you have no business making such blatantly laughable comments! You attack EVs and Bobby Llewellyn as if you actually KNOW something about batteries and electronics,, but you obviously don't! JRP3 and i have YT vids of our EVs to SHOW that we know what we R talking axouh -- do U?! My EV can outrun anything you put against it, and do so EFFICIENTLY!
@billdale1 You are so right. I have *no* practical experience at all with EVs. But, without getting into a pissing contest, I do have a lot of experience with electronics, battery technologies etc, as a result of the UAV systems that I design. EVs can be made very powerful, very efficient and very easy to use - but until they can be all that *AND* affordable, they're still stick well and truly in the future as far as the average consumer is concerned.
what you do is present the absolute worst-case scenario re: EVs, such as lead-acid battery performance, ignoring anything better such as Altair NanoSafe batteries which the Navy and Army that can be recharged tens of thousands of times without signs or degrading, and then assume that technology will never improve; then you ignore the fact that with each passing day we must go to greater and greater extremes and expense to fuel the incredibly inefficient ICE cars U are so in love with! Delusional
what you do is present the absolute worst-case scenario re: EVs, such as lead-acid battery performance, ignoring anything better such as Altair NanoSafe batteries which the Navy and Army that can be recharged tens of thousands of times without signs or degrading, and then assume that technology will never improve; then you ignore the fact that with each passing day we must go to greater and greater extremes and expense to fuel the incredibly inefficient ICE cars U are so in love with! Delusional
EV technology has advanced to the point electric cars are in fact practical for a great many people. If you don't want one, don't buy one, you've got plenty of petrol options at your fingertips. Progress always has a beginning, and adopting a sit-back-and-wait approach never got anyone anywhere. Don't want an EV? Don't buy one. But if an EV fits within your daily driving habits, technology has advanced to make that option viable. And they'll only get better, like anything else.
Facts are, oil is gonna run out, and due to that petrol will get very expensive. Fact: Batteries get better every year, and Lithium is gonna get cheaper, so the batteries will too. Fact: until governments are going to tax electric car use, electrically driven cars will run cheap as chips. Face it, between now and 20 years electricity will be the way to go in our everyday cars. Like it or not. B.T.W, I have mixed feelings; I would miss my rumbling little petrolengine very, very much!
RAV4EV's have gone over 100K miles on the original pack using NiMH. Newer LiFePO4 cells can do thousands of cycles. Look up Altairnano, A123, SE/CALB, Thundersky, etc. I'm not sure you're aware of current EV technology.
@JRP3 I'm fully aware of new technology - I've been using A123/LiFePO4 cells for a couple of years now in various applications and they're great, vastly more robust and safer than lithium-ion - but I haven't yet seen a commercially produced EV that uses them, they tend to rely on the cheaper Li-Ion cells. NiMH will handle far more charge-cycles than lithium-ion and are also far more tolerant of environmental considerations. Practical, affordable EVs are still a ways off.
@xjet Good thing no one told me that before I built mine, and drive it daily. No one told Nissan either. The Nissan Leaf will use LiMn cells, not sure what the Mitsu iMiev is using. These are all different variations of Lithium Ion cells.
@JRP3 Yeap, none of those are using LiFePO4 cells and they're all designs that will rapidly be superseded. These are vehicles for early-adopters who'll buy anything that's new. I think the battery technology that will make EVs truly practical has yet to be invented. EVs will become practical but at this stage, you can get a lot more energy out of a gallon of gasoline than the equivalent volume/weight of batteries.
@xjet But EV's are so much more efficient you don't need anywhere near the same energy density from batteries. What do you think makes a practical EV? It doesn't need to do all the same things an ICE does. Current technology can give us 200+ mile EV's right now, it just costs too much. All we need is more production volume to drive prices down and 200 mile EV's will be affordable, and at that point I think the benefits outweigh the negatives for most people.
@JRP3 EVs will happen -- that's the future. However, right now they just can't match ICE in the areas of affordability, range and convenience. Only when those factors are properly addressed and the required infrastructure is in place, will they be practical alternatives to our gas-guzzlers. It will happen but, despite what Robert Llewellyn might claim, that time has not yet come to pass.
@xjet For everyone, no, but for many of us, that time is now. I think the Leaf will bring in even more converts. Not everyone wants or needs 100's of miles of range from a vehicle, and many find it very convenient to plug in at home instead of dealing with lines and prices at gas stations. As a second vehicle, an EV is ideal, right now.
The electrical utility companies don't shut down distribution ever, unless it's a maintenance shut down. they use peak demand reserve nodes, that are in stand by mode, but even they are online.
I would also add, 40% of homes service would need upgrading. the charging system is around 30amps for a car. be like running a electric oven for 8 hrs everyday.
@WizzRacing I plug my EV into my 240V 30Amp dryer outlet. It only takes about 3 hours at most if I actually need a full charge for my 50 mile range, which normally lasts me 2-4 days.
you're delusional! Only lead-acid batteries need to be recycled as quickly as you assume... many battery chemistries last a decade or more, such as the Ni MH that Santa Monica City has used in their EVs for more than 100 K miles w/out changing cells, saving them a fortune-- & they charge their batteries by solar panels. Li Fe PO4 bats last several years without replacement, and no explosions or fires-- too mny flaws in your statements to respond! U R A DELUSIONAL CRACKPOT!
@billdale1 Sorry but just ask an RC model flier how many charge-cycles they get out of their lithium batteries when used in hi-drain applications such as those which would be experienced in an EV. I'm aware of LiFePO4 batteries - but the Tesla Roadster (and most other EVs on the market right now) are using Lithium-Ion cells which are a whole different kettle of fish. How long does a obile phone battery last?
I am surprised that an engineer is so narrow minded when it comes to new technology and its potential. If the pioneers of ICE's would have had the same mind set we would still be on horses.
Is it a generation problem? Things used to be better in the good ole days?
@advandermeer I'm not talking about potential -- I'm talking about what's available right now, and that's not really practical yet. Sure, things will improve, but at present, EV technology simply isn't ready for the big-time. There's not enough neodymium to replace the world's ICEs and battery technology isn't up to the task yet.
@xjet As I mentioned previously, AC induction motors do not need neodymium, or any rare earth magnets. It's a red herring that either the uniformed or flat out anti EV lobby keeps promoting.
@JRP3, The problem with AC induction, is the liability concern with electrical shock or electrocution. I see a 19mm wrench flash into thin air cause it got misplaced. it found its way to the inverter output leads. biggest damn explosion I seen. the pressure produced reached 50k fps and metal particles atomized into the containment cover. you have to be very careful when working on\with any AC system. it did have a GFCI, but since it was a Phase-to-Phase short it was over.
@WizzRacing You need to be careful when working on any high powered system. Drop a wrench across a high power battery pack terminals and watch the meltdown. Obviously they system will not be running while you work on it, I can grab any terminal on my motor or inverter when it's off with no problems. When I'm driving I'm not near the motor. Inertia switches can disable the pack in an accident, no matter what the drive system. It's not an issue.
The batteries in the Prius are a real-world example; they typically last well beyond the rather generous warranty period with no ill effects. You can't extrapolate from laptops and cellphones. Intelligent management of charge and discharge parameters, and temperature, make a tremendous difference. By not trying to eke out the last few percents of capacity, the life is extended. Cellphone batteries are tortured by comparison.
@NabooTheWonderDog The Prius isn't an EV -- it's a hybrid. The demands on a the batteries in the Prius are far less than those in a pure EV. NiMH packs work fine in the Prius but the lithium-ion batteries used by most pure EVs are never going to replace good old gasoline.
@xjet , the same principles apply and in fact you make my case. Battery life is strongly dependent on how the batteries are treated. As you suggest, the Prius batteries are coddled. Similarly, a well-designed EV will take great pains to not overdischarge or overcharge cells, and to maintain balance amongst the cells, in addition to temperature control. These make a huge diff. Again, don't extrapolate from old laptops. There is more to the battery story.
@NabooTheWonderDog The problem is that batteries used in a EV are likely to have quite a hard life, despite the manufacturer's best attempts to protect them. Extremes of temperature and humidity are just the start. Lithium batteries perform very poorly at low temps (your EV may be harder to start than your ICE on a cold winter's morning) and there will be a strong need for fast recharge capability, another major factor in reducing battery life.
@xjet Actually, most EV packs will be underused in the extreme. Even in the US the average daily commute is less than 40 miles per day. Even a 100 mile EV will likely be discharged less than 50%, prolonging their life. An EV will always "Start" in cold weather, it may not be as fast, or go as far. Unless of course you insulate your batteries, and use warmers while you charge, then there will be very little change at all. It may be a bit less efficient in extreme cold, just as your ICE is.
@JRP3 It's not just the low-temperature situation that is a concern -- driving an EV in the mid-west on a hot summer's day will see those batteries getting awfully hot -- unless there's a special aircon unit to keep them cool and that's just more energy wasted (ie: reduced range). Storage and operating temps make a huge difference to the life of a lithium battery. If you live in a temperate climate you may be fine -- a continental climate -- well I'd be less optimistic.
@xjet I've seen very little warming in my LiFePO4 cells on 80+ degree days so far. Small fans would likely take care of any heat in higher temperatures, unless you are really driving the vehicle hard. Common sense can keep you out of trouble, in an EV or an ICE.
@JRP3 Remember that LiFePO4 cells are not what is being used in vehicles like the Tesla. I've acknowledged that LiFePO4 chemistry is superior to lithium-Ion but the few commercial EVs that are currently on the market are presently being shipped with Li-Ion, not LiFePO4. The life of a Li-Ion is significantly reduced by high temperatures such as those which may be impossible to avoid in summer when driving on a hot freeway.
@xjet That's why Tesla uses active cooling for their cells. Yes it uses more electricity, so? Frankly I consider LiCo cells old technology already. Variations of LiFePO4 prismatics will likely take over for EV packs.
Just to add to the fossil fuel depletion debate. BP found the biggest oil reserve in the world ever found! one reason they can't stop the thing right now from spewing oil on the gulf. the pressure is off the scale to normal deep water wells!
The problem is not batteries, it's the rare earth magnets it takes to build the drive system. the total amount on this earth is not enough to build 10% of the cars on the road now! trust me when I say, I know what I'm talking about. one reason the US stopped exporting the rare ore to China. whom by the way is buying as much as they can right now.
@WizzRacing: PFFFT! you DON'T know what you're talking about! There are creative ways recently patented for getting about the same power from a motor without rare earth magnets; also, there is a trillion dollars worth of lithium and rare earth mineral deposits in Afghanistan in the US control rather than China; still more in Bolivia; and still more in the western US that have yet to begin supplying our needs. And unlike petrol, such minerals can be recycled when their life is spent!
@billdale1 Sir, I been working on projects much larger then a car! currently there is no known process to create a suitable replacement for rare earth magnets. you can't make them from other materials. the known amount to this day, will only cover about 10% of the cars on the road. that does not include hard drive's, speed controllers, electric wheel chairs, etc.. that we consume make as well.
@billdale1, Even if you could replace them and convert 100% of the cars on the road to electric. you better invest $15k+ in a solar power\wind generation system. unless you like having $600.00 electric bills every month! the cost to upgrade the electrical grid would be in the 100's of billions dollars. until they did you would have brown outs all over the country, on a weekly occurrence.
@WizzRacing , people will charge their cars mostly at night. Many power plants don't shut down at night because it takes them too long to come back on line again. So there is a very large pool of unused and currently wasted capacity. Time of day pricing is available in many areas. It's a win-win for utilities and consumers. True, if tens of millions are sold the grid will eventually need to expand. We should be so lucky!
@WizzRacing Actually China has the world's largest reserves of ores containing rare-earth elements such as neodymium and they also have huge lithium reserves - both of which are key components of any shift to EVs. China has halted the export of rare-earth ore and materials because it wants to become the world-leader in the supply of hi-power electric components such as motors and batteries.
@WizzRacing 3 Phase AC induction motors, such are used in the Tesla, and my conversion, don't use rare earth magnets, so that is not an issue at all. There are also a number of studies that show plenty of lithium world wide for millions of EVs, not to mention newer lithium technologies using nanoscale particles use even LESS lithium per battery. There are lithium mines in the US that closed because the price of lithium was so low. There is a LOT of lithium out there.
I think you are being a little unfair on Robert. What I took from his video is that we are closer to the cell phones from the late 80's than we are to modern cell phones (in his comparison). I don't think he was saying that we are "there" already at all. He took a car that was designed a few years ago and said, "Hey if we can do this already, imagine what we can do with todays current technology". As people have mentioned before tech has advanced beyond the tesla and we should support new stuff.
I think the biggest point that Rob made is his analogy to the cell phones and the change they made over time. As electric cars become more widely spread your point about batteries goes away as technology gets better and supply increases. Lithium Ion batteries have already dropped by almost 50% in the last 2 years. Early adopters of any new technology are going to pay more. But we all need to thank them because they pave the way for prices to come down.
New batteries and new tech is on the horizon, the tesla roadster and model s plan to recieve new updates.Panasonic has already increased their ah rating per cell from 2.2 to 3.1 ah tesla recently signed a deal We've got lithium silicon nanowires that will hold ten times the charge, the anode is replaced by silicon, Hitachi's new lithium batteries with a new composite oxide material — a lithium-manganese spinel (LiMn204) that will extend life, lithium air batteries that will get 200-400 miles
@eldictator1 Model Airplanes use Lithium Polymer and Li-Fe Batteries since 2004.... And they are getting lighter "fuller" and much safer... Stop arguing about stuff that was like 20 Years ago.
If somebody uses those Batteries in a Plane... -.-
Your a decent bloke, but your completely wrong. Your basing your entire arguement on one car produced by a start up company.. This is a common trap people fall into. Looking at todays tech and then saying it's useless, because it only serves the needs of 80% of the population and presuming that petrol prices will remain constant and battery tech and charging tech will never advance....Your bashing a product in it's infancy and without a hundred years of constant development.
EVs are practical NOW, the hydrogen fuel cell vehicle that the Top Gear boys hailed as the vehicle of the future still costs around a MILLION freaking dollars and has a fuel cell that could never outlast a battery. On top of all that it doesn't make any sense at all to waste electricity produced by coal fired power plants to produce hydrogen for fuel cell cars when you can simply use the electricity to charge your EV directly!
Regardless what type of car is the best, we will have to start producing more (electric) energy. The time of pumping up energy (oil) from the ground is coming to an end. We can't wait for electric cars to be better than petrol cars at everything before we start buying them. To prepare for the future we need a lot of research in the field of electric cars. Also we need people to buy electric cars to finance the research. Start looking forward!
The battery pack in your Tesla Roadster is expected to maintain good driving performance for about 100,000 miles or five years, whichever comes first. Lithium-ion batteries will degrade slightly over time. Our testing and modeling indicate that a typical Tesla Roadster owner who drives 50,000 miles over five years should have about 70 percent of initial performance levels available.
I prefer to believe independent data rather than manufacturer's hype. Fir a start, the roaster hasn't been around for 5 years so they are just extrapolating (guessing) at this figure -- right?
Do a Google search for: battery university lithium battery life
and read the article on the BatteryUniversity website as just *one* example of this independent research.
You should do some research on advances in battery technology - In particular the nanosafe from Altairnano with a purported lifespan of 25 thousand deep cycles ..... Also you seem to be reducing Roberts whole philosophy on the electric car to a question of running costs ...
Teslas data proves your point, 13p per mile adds up to a whole lot of expense, like you say an extra £32 for a fill up so to speak
I guess the mass manufacture of standardized Lithium power units would bring the price way down, but we are no where near that yet
also lithium as an element is massively abundant and 100% recyclable, it doesn't get used up as such, so there would be a value to trading in your old power unit, but that's a long way away
Actually most other lithium batts last around ten years. The Roadster's doesn't because they're applying them to an extremely high-drain application.
If you want real world figures, the NiMH based Rav4Ev has been on the road for 13 years, and drivers report getting 70% of the original range. That's an older chemistry than Li-ion.
Xjet: Mate, where the hell are you getting the figure of 400 cycles for a Lithium Iron Phosphate battery? Rubbish chinese LiFePO4 are pulling 800, and the A123 cells of the type the Tesla runs are rated at 2-3000 cycles to 80% discharge. Safety issues: You are confusing Li Polymer with Li-ion.
You can drive a nail through a LiFePO4 cell and it wont burn. Homework, squire? For God's sake, do some yourself!
The technology is coming faster than you might think. Think of nanosafe batteries and A123 systems. The altair nano batteries have around 14 000 FULL battery cycles and the A123 can have around 7 000 FULL cycles. The lightning car that is coming out soon will have nanosafe batteries.
You are the man, Bruce!
FeelinGipper 1 week ago
P.S. I forgot to say that the lithium ion batteries in 2008 (date of the vid) really did only around 400 charges but FULL charges, not partial. Your everyday car has a flooded lead acid battery in it that only handles like 15/30 full charge/discharge cycles, but it lasts you some years using it everyday with partial charges doesn't it? Learn something more about how batteries behave and you will realize that your math is completely wrong.
WXIIIR 3 months ago
@WXIIIR Actually, I use lithium batteries almost every day -- and in applications that are not too dissimilar to EV use. I was just remarking the other day that the packs I'm presently using have about 200 cycles on them (partial cycles -- I seldom discharge below about 45%) and are already showing signs of reduced capacity and increased internal resistance. These are "state of the art" packs purchased about 18 months ago. There have been no major changes to cells since then.
xjet 3 months ago
@xjet and how much do you think they can take up to the point where they will only store 50% of the original capacity? Are you saying that lithium batteries are less durable than lead acid? I use 2x20ah 12v SLA batteries on my electric bicycle and i only use them to half capacity every time they have around 200 partial charges and still hold around 80 to 90% of the original capacity. Also my cell phone uses lithium, 5 years charging every day it lasts 2~3 days (originally was around 5).
WXIIIR 3 months ago
@WXIIIR Lithium cells work very well with low charge and discharge rates but when you start trying to push current in and pull it out quickly, you get a much lower cycle-life. That's why your mobile phone works so well with a lithium battery but higher-drain devices (like EVs) are not so good. LiFePO4 looks like the best battery technology right now for cycle-life. Even in high drain/recharge use they have cycle-lives in excess of 1000 and sometimes 2000 cycles.
xjet 3 months ago
@xjet Agreed, LiFePO4 is a very good technology. Nowadays EV's have a high drain for sure, i didn't factored that so you are absolutely right. But it's stupid though, because they don't need to, and shouldn't have so high drain (but unfortunately they do). What is the point in sticking a 100hp(ish) electric motor in an electric car (like prius or leaf)? I did the math once and nowadays electric cars consume almost the same amount of energy as fossil fuel cars because of being poorly engineered.
WXIIIR 3 months ago
@xjet Just remembered something. Do you do fast charging? On the cell phone example charging takes around 30min (bigger the battery longer the time) and on the electric bike a full charge would take 10hours (but only around 6 because i only use half capacity). Fast charging affects batteries very much, equalization, maintenance and topping charges are required for good battery life (if you also have a state of the art charger and plug the batteries regularly it takes care of that for you)
WXIIIR 3 months ago
@WXIIIR yes, as I said -- charge rate (and discharge rate) are important factors. The problem with EVs is that to be viable as anything other than a commuter vehicle, there has to be some form of quick-charge capability. Li-Ion as we currently know it is not going to cut it. New battery technology will be the answer -- and there are plenty who say "in 5 years we will...." but right now, nothing.
xjet 3 months ago
I agree with some stuff but, for example, you talked about the prius. Any fairly competent mechanic can build you a car on a crappy garage (or alter an already made one) to run purely on electricity that will use a lot less than a prius. Petrol companies and car companies are a mutual and dynamic conspiracy/deal, petrol companies don't have any interest whatsoever in having too many fuel guzzling cars running around if you think of it with some clarity.
WXIIIR 3 months ago
@WXIIIR The current workshops who convert petrol cars into electric ones do so using the existing inefficient running gear and driveline. Most of them also still rely on lead acid batteries.
This results in lousy acceleration and lousy range, for a stupid price.
Not practical.
chappy0061 3 months ago
@chappy0061 I didn't even talked about conversion. A guy that lives near me converted a fiat 127 in his garage and put a 15hp brushless motor and lead acid batteries, it reaches 130km/h, has around 120km of range on 50% charge, if it had lithium instead of lead it would have around 600km range on half charge with the same weight (around 800kg). Electric production cars aren't better yet because brands don't want them to. If you do your own EV (even if its a bike) and some math you will confirm
WXIIIR 3 months ago
Good vid. There is another cost factor you left out which I think is also a very important issue. I go to the pump and fill up my vehicle and with paying and all I'm done in approx. 10 minutes. Charging an electric car takes /hours/. Time is worth money too. What if you suddenly have to go out during the night ?
ShelLuser 3 months ago
i doubt that power plants are running at 100% capacity, think of all the wasted electricity not being used but generated. also "Tesla expects the battery to retain approximately 70% of its initial capacity after seven years or 100,000 miles." that'd be cool, but thats comming from their website. damn shame that there isnt any plans to use electric vehicles and nuclear power plants and breeder reactors.
Rudywtf 4 months ago
Funny thing people always take Tesla Roadster as the "good" example. It has HUGE and expensive battery. Not something any of us "normal people" would buy. A mere 25kWh lithium-iron-phosphate battery would work just fine in an average electric car like a Nissan Leaf. And with current prices, its about $7000. Just that you know, these large scale automotive batteries last more than 2000 full recharge cycles or around 10 years, minimum. And after that they are 97-99% recycled. Not wasted.
lupzter78 4 months ago
good point on the èlectricty bill cost of these thing and the crap battery life.
deaultusername 5 months ago in playlist More videos from xjet
I really don't like McBeardy...
rock3tcat 6 months ago
well you make some valid points in this vid, no doubt about that ..but what is the answer? surely battery electric cars will have a significant role to play in the future, we're just not going to be able to switch straight from petrol to hydrogen.
tdavies456 6 months ago
I notice the comments that are too hard to refute get ignored....
xjet, dude, wake up and embrace the technology.
Where in your calculations do you include the life expectancy of an ICE engine, the regular service intervals and associated running costs?
Electric cars absolutely smoke (mind the pun) ICE vehicles, they can acquire electrical energy from pig crap to wind and have less maintenance. As I commented before - "Go back to the scrap heap, you belong there".
cmusty 6 months ago
@cmusty But you know what? 99.9% of all the vehicles on our roads are *still* using internal combustion engines! Sure, eventually EVs will become practical -- but not yeat, and certainly not when I made this video some 2 years ago.
xjet 6 months ago
@xjet The argument you just gave is textbook straw man. May I suggest it will be 100 years before electric vehicles are a majority - does this mean electrics are "shite" and we should continue using ICE? NO!
Your whole "certainly some day but not yet" statement is a diplomatic convenience when you realize your arguments are false and pulled from thin air.
cmusty 6 months ago
@cmusty It's not about when "electric vehicles are a majority" -- it's about when electric vehicles are even practical. If they *were* practical right now, with oil prices soaring, why aren't people using them? Simple -- because they're *not* yet practical. Not rocket-science.
xjet 6 months ago 2
@xjet Define practical then. ICE engines have compromises but your probably so used to them that you ignore it. To answer your questions, its oil companies suppressing technology and poor old fools like yourself believing that ICE are the only way to go. Its not rocket science its not even science - its politics.
cmusty 6 months ago
@cmusty The old "oil company conspiracy" theory again. Try Occam's Razor -- it's far more appropriate. The oil companies don't own the technology behind EVs so why haven't independent EV manufacturers like Tesla gained huge market-share then? Simple: because the technology is not yet practical as replacement for the ICE. Conspiracy theories are not a substitute for the lack of credible facts.
xjet 6 months ago
@xjet The old "oil company conspiracy" theory denial again. Try reality, its far more appropriate. Nuts like you spouting falsities and companies discrediting EV's are part of the reason they don't have huge market share. EV technology is practical right now, people are just too in love with oil and ICE. A conspiracy theory is only a conspiracy with out the proof - there is plenty of proof with oil companies killing off innovation.
cmusty 6 months ago
@cmusty Okay then, tell me how the oil companies are crippling Tesla Motors. Where's your evidence? In fact, show me *any* evidence that the oil companies are suppressing EVs.
xjet 6 months ago
@xjet Your old enough and I would hope smart enough to use a tool like Google. Try it some time.
Check out a guy named Victor Kilimov. He has developed and scientifically proven that a device the size of a postage stamp is capable of delivering enough energy to power a vehicle like a roadster without batteries. Tesla (the man) developed this 100 years ago yet was discredited by JP Morgan when he could not slap a meter on it. Oil controls you in ways you cannot imagine.
cmusty 6 months ago
totaly agrea with u m8 no offence to Robert but damn how many times in the uk do u see a fully electric car not much at all it rlly it more expensive dont even need to think about how much it would cosy. a nother thing for Robert top gear made there own electric car any they didnt get very far they have driven a few electric cars n theres just nothing there im a car mad type of person and i know a hell of a lot about cars electric cars will never be as good as just a normal unleaded car
lordi2009k 7 months ago
-400 charge/discharge cycles is in the past. At my university research group here we are able to get thousands of charge (3000 to 4000) so this will change as well when the technology develops
-finally the doubling of electrcity consumption will not translate into a doubling of the electrical bill for everyone because most people can charge when electricity is not used and cheap (night time). This also applies to the construction of new power plants that will not double for the same reason.
yrangom 7 months ago
Hi from Canada! I may respectfully disagree with your argument. Robert has the most sensible point of view in my opinion. Here is why:
-you mentionned rightly that Robert omitted to take into account the price of the battery which is outrageously expensive now. This is true but remember that this a NEW technology with almost no economy of scale at work. This will change sunstentially when more than a few thousands of E-car are made each year
yrangom 7 months ago
This video (whilst years old now) ignored one crucial aspect of LiIon battery technology...
Just like Lead Acid batteries, it's actually a simple (and relatively affordable) matter to recondition a Lithium Ion battery, without replacing any cells. LiIon cells stop holding a charge because they deionize. Re-Ionizing them is VERY simple, and cheap! £200 at most! Do it for laptop cells all the time. Bob, want me to ionize your iMiev battery for you?
RustyBinProductions 8 months ago
You make a good point about the batteries, battery life, etc... However. Do you think gas prices will go down. NO!!! Totally weakens your point mate. Every day Lithium battery technology and other battery technologies improve. The biggest problem with running on these batteries is the range per full charge. For these to really become practical at the present time, car/battery companies will have to provide a way that we can change fully charged batteries out on the fly while on the road.
Beulzabob 8 months ago
@Beulzabob You are dead-right. Eventually, electric vehicles will become practical and affordable. The reality however, is that we're still a fair way out from that point and Robert is talking about *NOW* -- not 15-20 years up the track.
xjet 8 months ago
Thank you.. thank you!!!! I have been arguing with people for a few years about this same thing. They say "well it is more environmentally friendly than a petrol". If everyone drove electric vehicles, then we would need more power plants and plus the cost to dispose of the batteries. I could go on and on about this. Thanks again, finally someone who agrees with me.
dagwood64 9 months ago
Been investigating electric vehicles for a while now and unfortunately xjet makes a valid argument. EV technology is truly exciting but you still can't make an electric vehicle that will not ultimately cause as much harm (or maybe even more) than a gas powered vehicle. The only exceptions might be if you can power the EV via solar, hydro or wind. Even then you still have to factor in range and longevity of batteries. And where do old batteries go to die?
bolognadetector 9 months ago
Whilst I'm a supporter of electric cars, I acknowledge your views. At least you do back up your points with facts. Although now the video is a little old, with the LEAF and I-MIEV rolling out...and also gas prices are going up even higher, I think electric cars are becoming more of a viable option. In regards to the conspiracy, I believe electric car technology was stifled as opposed to making vehicles more gas efficient. Anyway, it's good to hear your views in a constructive manner.
aesapphire 9 months ago
any normal thinking person can see beyond all doubt that hes right in what hes saying come on people use your noggin
ardrie 10 months ago
finally some one who knows WTF they are talking about thanks man
csgtfaught 10 months ago
Yer but its more environmentally friendly than a petrol :/
SuperPianowizard 10 months ago
@SuperPianowizard No, no it's not. Electric power simply shifts the point of pollution from the vehicle to the electricity generation facility. In the case of the USA that's mainly coal. In the case of the UK that's a whole lot of NUCLEAR power stations. Now tell me that's a good thing? I'd rather put up with a bit of smog than the kind of pollution the people of Fukushima are facing right now.
xjet 10 months ago
@xjet True, we do have a lot of Nuclear Power plants in th UK. You have proven me wrong and i feel so sorry for what Fukushima have been going through and i wish them all the best and hope that they are all safe and get back to there daily lives soon.
SuperPianowizard 10 months ago
OMG acture god! I remember scrap heat challenge very well! I thought i reconized u!
SuperPianowizard 10 months ago
Very interesting video, never took into consideration that batt. replacement cost. I'd rather the gas powered Elise anyway, much lighter. I'd just buy a carbon offset.
rhyslegge 11 months ago
why are you talking such absolute bollox mate?
jmpmcd 1 year ago
@cbcdesign If the only temperature management required is adjustment of the charging voltage, why do most manufacturers fit fans/temperature controllers to the battery systems? Quotes.... "Tesla uses what Musk described as active liquid thermal control, while the LEAF pack uses an air cooling system"
c53204 1 year ago
@cbcdesign When calculating operating costs you also have to consider that the battery has only a limited number of charge/discharge cycles -- whereas your petrol tank can be refilled an unlimited number of times and it'll hold the same amount each time. With the battery packs being so expensive and requiring regular replacement, the cost-savings of an EV may not be anywhere near what you think. In fact, you'll be shocked at how little you save when you do the math.
xjet 1 year ago
Electric cars could be the future. They could have small Jet/Gas-Turbine engines to generate the electricity. They would still have batteries or capacitors to serve as an energy buffer, but the problem of not having sufficient electric charge would be solved. The Toyota Prius is like putting sails on a paddle-steamer because the reciprocating combustion engine is so inefficient; the electric motor having to cart it around.
Sidowse 1 year ago
Hey Bruce, your correct on all accounts. No one has addressed what we are going to do with the old batteries and the cost that goes with it!
767Seatwarmer 1 year ago
Wrong on so many levels, batteries are far more capable than 400 charges, did you calculate the engine replacement and servicing in the cost of an ICE age engine? Even if we were to build coal fired plants to provide 2X the electricity we would still use less carbon in a Roadster. What is your opinion of the model S? it will be affordable and land in stores soon. Go back to the scrap heap with your old technology - it suits you.
cmusty 1 year ago
Bruce Simpson. Final Comment. You are INTELLECTUALLY DISHONEST and the babyboomer era of PROPAGANDA has come to its END.
wingpilot87 1 year ago
@wingpilot87 Still got that caps-lock problem eh? Try some WD40. And I invite you to shoot my arguments down in flames by pointing me to where I can buy an affordable electric vehicle off the dealer's showroom floor. What's that? There are no affordable electrics? Kind of proves my point doesn't it?
xjet 1 year ago
Bruce Simpson (xjet) is INTELLECTUALLY Bankrupt, COMPLETE lies!! I Don't CARE if he posted it in 2008! INCREDIBLE lithium batteries for VEHICLES have been READILY available for several years! If you are EAGER for the truth watch Jack Rickard's videos! web.me.com/mjrickard/ & on youtube... "1 A Convenient Response to an Inconvenient Truth - EV"
wingpilot87 1 year ago
@wingpilot87 Thanks for your valuable feedback. I think you caps-lock key needs attention though. It's now two years since I posted that video -- and still we *still* don't see any affordable electric vehicles on sale in high-street car dealerships. Yet I guess you're right, I must be lying. Mea culpa.
xjet 1 year ago 3
Regardless of the battery technology/type, they have limited lifespan. Some mobile phones and laptops use the very latest battery technology, but you won't get 10,000 cycles out of any of them.
Anyone who has physical proof of 10,000 cycle batteries, post video proof. Not a salespersons figures.
Electric vehicles ARE the future, but not powered by rechargeable batteries - at least in the long term. They are to heavy, require temperature management and take too long to charge.
c53204 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@c53204 Bruce Simpson (xjet) is INTELLECTUALLY Bankrupt, COMPLETE lies!! I Don't CARE if he posted it in 2008! INCREDIBLE lithium batteries for VEHICLES have been READILY available for several years! If you are EAGER for the truth watch Jack Rickard's videos! web.me.com/mjrickard/ & on youtube... "1 A Convenient Response to an Inconvenient Truth - EV"
wingpilot87 1 year ago
@c53204 An engine lasts for a limited Time too... And here is a fact:
An engine with the Power of the teslas lasts for about 100.000 Kilometers befor it needs to be checked and or repaired... The Batteries last (in the Tesla roadster) for (200 miles * 500 (lets go with a small number just to make a point... there are Lithium Batteries today that can do about 3 to 5000 cycles) = 100.000 miles)
Think of what you're saying... (Tesla Roadster has Garantie until 100.000 miles)
EinBick 1 year ago
you raise some very gd points, some have obvious answers. I gave thumbs down just because of errors in your facts and some what short sightedness.
How ever I agree people in the media driven world dont fully look into the facts and figures and specifics of a product or service. I have high hopes for the ev it may not be "cheaper" but if done right should be better for the world we live in.
stubbzie 1 year ago
P.s xjet, what do ya think of the new jag with the turbine generator
eldictator1 1 year ago
An update to my earlier point. High Density Ultracapacitors made from graphene that store around 136 Whrs/kg or a similar amount to Nimh batteries of around ten years ago. It might not sound impressive, but when they can be charged in seconds or a maximum of 2 minutes, and can store large amounts of regenerated breaking energy. You could effectively have a small capacitor that stored energy and a back up supply of say 10-20miles of energy that could be charged in seconds for small trips
eldictator1 1 year ago
this guy is just a complete ass, why doesnt he just say "Power!!!, V8, RWD, The End"
Mrtestdrivex 1 year ago
@Mrtestdrivex I am *not* a "complete" ass -- I must sadly inform you there are pieces missing.
xjet 1 year ago 2
This has been flagged as spam show
Bruce Simpson (xjet) is INTELLECTUALLY Bankrupt, COMPLETE lies!! I Don't CARE if he posted it in 2008! INCREDIBLE lithium batteries for VEHICLES have been READILY available for several years! If you are EAGER for the truth watch Jack Rickard's videos! web.me.com/mjrickard/ & on youtube... "1 A Convenient Response to an Inconvenient Truth - EV"
wingpilot87 1 year ago
Bruce Simpson (xjet) is INTELLECTUALLY Bankrupt, COMPLETE lies!! I Don't CARE if he posted it in 2008! INCREDIBLE lithium batteries for VEHICLES have been READILY available for several years! If you are EAGER for the truth watch Jack Rickard's videos! web.me.com/mjrickard/ & on youtube... "1 A Convenient Response to an Inconvenient Truth - EV"
wingpilot87 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Mrtestdrivex Bruce Simpson (xjet) is INTELLECTUALLY Bankrupt, COMPLETE lies!! I Don't CARE if he posted it in 2008! INCREDIBLE lithium batteries for VEHICLES have been READILY available for several years! If you are EAGER for the truth watch Jack Rickard's videos! web.me.com/mjrickard/ & on youtube... "1 A Convenient Response to an Inconvenient Truth - EV"
wingpilot87 1 year ago
@Mrtestdrivex Agree 100%
You are a poor guy...
In 2030 I will laugh at you because you have no more fuel xD
And robert is completely right about what he says.
if you want to bury your head... do that... have fun saying Electric cars arent there yet and Electric sucks...
It is there.... or what is the tesla roadster?
Compare it to Cars like it idiot... To a Ferrari F40 for example... or a Porsche Carrera GT... They have LESS RANGE!
EinBick 1 year ago
@EinBick You are not seeing the jenious of Hydrogen Internal combustion enjines, There are 0 emmisions, 50% better power output and only emmits water!! Replacing Petrolium, Shitty Diesel, and snot box electric cars. YOU WILL BE BUT IN YOUR PLACE BY THE PEOPLE OF TOMORROM THAT LIVE TODAY!!!
Mrtestdrivex 1 year ago
@Mrtestdrivex I didn't adress you I adressed the video...
and the Hydrogen has to be produced... Think about that... you can't just grab it out of the air....
Also an engine needs grease to run.... and only water doesn't do that... Yet you're right, they would be good engines too... but the process to get Hydrogen still needs to much energie..
EinBick 1 year ago
If you are comparing running costs between conventional cars and elec cars then the debate will go on fore ever.But lets compare being totally self sufficient and being held ransom by oil companies.Total freedom where it be religious,financial,health etc... is priceless,its what millions have died for,wars have been started and finished due to freedom.Its a choice we don't have right now.People and countries make trillions annually with oil.How much is the electric car really worth?
videokfm 1 year ago
Well, at leat Your contra-rant has got people thinking. I still prefer electrics, if only for the simple fact that ANY form of energy can be used to charge batteries.
And Your criticism of Tesla's "running-cost" is a bit beside the point. How "handy" is a Murcielago? What does it cost to maintain a 360 ferrari? Tesla's roadster is a "toy for the rich" no more, nor less. same will be true for the Fisker. Yet, it's a start.
"automobiles" started as toys for the European aristocracy.
diakrite 1 year ago
Nope Santa here's completely wrong, basing his entire argument on one car.
rock3tcat 1 year ago
It's true what the guy says in the video, all batteries no matter what type only have a certain life span and they are not able to hold a recharge after a while. If a replacement costs as much as what he says it's a very expensive way to save a few dollars in gas by buying a car which relies on one to operate. It's good technology but it will be a while before it's developed enough for it to be worthwhile.
Abreen11 1 year ago
Great video Bruce and totally agree with you on all points, it's nice to see someone like yourself who is not all caught up with the hype surrounding the Tesla Roadster/electric car and just looks at the up side of the idea without considering the negatives which in this case far outweigh the positives as you well point out, just because they saw it on an entertainment based show likeTop Gear! Albeit that many just don't like to hear the truth and prefer the glossy hype, keep up the good work.
Voxson1 1 year ago
@Voxson1 "...which in this case far outweigh the positives..."
I think you need to watch the video again. You seem to be misinformed, even if battery powered cars where limited to the number of cycles talked about (which they're not), there's a big difference between the handling of LiPo batteries and such in RC models and those used in electric cars.
So, that aside, and if given what is said here is true, they're still comparable EXCEPT that the EVs are still MUCH better for the environment.
SumoAnnoy 1 year ago
is this a fuckn bp worker fuck you tesla is fuckn up detroit and all the aut mobile industy im buyin a shitload of tocks from tesla
bonds911 1 year ago
@bonds911 Thanks for putting that English degree and huge vocabulary to work when coming up with that incredibly thought provoking reply.
xjet 1 year ago 5
@xjet lol it says hes been sucked by electric vehicles lol... keep working for bp instead of making shitty stupid hypocrat videos keep with your shitty polution because we in california are going green with our world famous tesla
bonds911 1 year ago
@bonds911 Bruce Simpson (xjet) is INTELLECTUALLY Bankrupt, COMPLETE lies!! I Don't CARE if he posted it in 2008! INCREDIBLE lithium batteries for VEHICLES have been READILY available for several years! If you are EAGER for the truth watch Jack Rickard's videos! web.me.com/mjrickard/ & on youtube... "1 A Convenient Response to an Inconvenient Truth - EV"
wingpilot87 1 year ago
Unfortunately, we need to replace fosil fuels before they run out. But bio fuels sucks too. What should we do then? I think that these electric/hydrogen technologies are good start. No, they are not flawless yet. It's the same with nuclear power plants. We are hoping to make thermonuclear fusion reactor, but still we need around 30 years. Funny thing is, that we are able to miniaturize electronics equipment, but we still sucks on batteries. The technology will come.
cortkatanakx1q 1 year ago
Bill, you are WRONG about the EV1. You can see films of people getting arrested. Even though they only had Li-on batterys.
WRONG about Tesla. They have LiFePo4 battery. 2,000 cycles to 80% value IF you totally discharge it every time. The natural cycle value of these is approx 10,000 recharges plus to 80%.
Sorry mate. You should look up the facts first.
m1aws 1 year ago 2
@m1aws There is a *very* interesting article on TheRegister regarding what GM are calling "range anxiety". It puts the Tesla Roadster's limitation in very sharp context. Go read it (TheRegister) is a dot-co-do-uk website.
xjet 1 year ago
@xjet The Tesla consumes less than 300Watts per mile. Its battery is 54KWH. They state it has a real life range of 248 miles on a single charge.
As goes recharging 54KWH's. You do not! You keep them topped up to increase the battery life. Those LiFePo4's will outlive me.
Its a rich mans sports car.You would not want to drive that for many miles with any engine!
Peeps who make their own cars do not suffer OEM pricing.
m1aws 1 year ago
@xjet Makes GM sound very shrill doesn't it. :) Typical of the media to back big business showing bias and producing no facts.
The matter of the fact is GM are embarrassingly incapable of making their car work and they will not be allowed to sell a car without an ICE.
Now where is Tesla's accessory. A towed 4KWH generator with a 50 gallon tank.
m1aws 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Bruce Simpson (xjet) is INTELLECTUALLY Bankrupt, COMPLETE lies!! I Don't CARE if he posted it in 2008! INCREDIBLE lithium batteries for VEHICLES have been READILY available for several years! If you are EAGER for the truth watch Jack Rickard's videos! web.me.com/mjrickard/ & on youtube... "1 A Convenient Response to an Inconvenient Truth - EV"
wingpilot87 1 year ago
id hate to see the lipo fire if one of those tesla's crashed, a 2s batt pack can do some real damage nevemind a 6000s pack, and i cant imagine they picked the cream of the lipo crop neither a 6000 cells per pack,so cycles might be well down from advertised as well if pushed hard or over drained
damafia29 1 year ago
Good video. EVs just aren't ready yet. Here in Oxford we've got electric Mini's, made in Oxford, and whilst they look just like an ordinary Mini, they have awful range and cost a fortune to recharge. Your point about the grid being used overnight is very true - the grid now goes very quiet overnight, if everyone switched to EVs the grid wouldn't be able to cope. I'd love an EV but they're just not ready yet.
ebyard 1 year ago
Think about our planet. Feel for it really.......We need to adopt this baby technology and grow it into a very practical and handy way of transportation.
daaa37 1 year ago
My Tesla Sport battery has a 60k warranty. Have you ever paid for a tune-up on a V12 Ferrari or Lamborghini? With Lambo, you have to ship it to Italy every 10k mi. Sipping alone costs $15k. After my warranty expires, the Lambo with the same mileage would require 6 months in shipping cost $90k + the tune vs. $35k for my battery. Why compare my Sport to a Lambo? It's one of few cars as quick.
masterskenneth 1 year ago
Hi Bruce,
1) 54 kwh on night saver remember.
2) Not everyone will turn to electric cars just a small %, that's the plan. The grid can easily support the projected number of cars. (...every 3rd night charging )
3) Tesla is a bad example to use when discussing the feasibility of electric cars in general, its a high end vehicle.
4)You made a good point about cycle count/longevity of battery. This is an metric this is often overlooked.
5)What are you thoughts on peak oil? And oil spills?
cianof 1 year ago
Just wondering if you still believe you analysis to be correct?
munteruk 1 year ago
@munteruk Remember that this video (mine) was posted over a year ago and was specifically directed to Robert's comments at the time he made his video. Yes, things have changed -- but even today (almost 18 months later) the EV is still not a cost-effective alternative to the ICE for the vast majority of people - and it won't be for quite some time (which was my point).
xjet 1 year ago
We have ample reason to stop using ICEs without carbon footprints, as I already stated, but Llewellyn gave a very competent answer in his video, if you had only stopped to watch it! And even then, he didn't even mention the full carbon impact of ICEs-- you want to point at EVs, but there is NO TECHNOLOGY that has no carbon footprint! As for gasoline use, an often overlooked carbon load is the support personnel at tanker dispatching stations! You HAVE to include them!
billdale1 1 year ago
absolutely incorrect! There are multiple ways to refute that statement! In the documentary "who killed the Electric Car?", there are hundreds of owners of the EV-1, Toyota RAV-4 and others that had vigorous battles with the car makers when their leases were up, wanting to buy the cars out of lease. Some of them were even arrested rather than turn over the cars! GM et al towed the cars to the desert and crushed them despite very generous offers to buy the cars! Check your facts!
billdale1 1 year ago
@billdale1 There's more "conspiracy" theory surrounding the EV-1 than 911. Don't take everything you read on the internet as fact. the EV1 was never economic and never would have been. Customers got them on leases which represented a massive loss to GM which only appeared to make them look economically viable.
xjet 1 year ago
@xjet That was the point of the EV-1. GM put in so much cutting edge technology to price it out of the range of the average consumer. EVs didn't fit their razor blade business model. Servicing is where the big profit is and electric cars require much less. So you are correct that the EV-1 was and never would be economically viable for GM as far as GM was concerned.
As for "conspiracies" why would Texaco/Chevron buy out NiMH patents and suppress large format packs. I wonder?
karuddell 1 year ago
As I suggested, recent reports indicate that the resale value of today's EVs is absolutely awful. One respected UK motoring website suggests that when they reach 5-years of age, today's EVs will be worth just 10% of their original price. That's a big factor new-buyers need to consider and what I suggested in this video.
xjet 1 year ago
@xjet That report was pure speculation and quite a bit of nonsense. ICE vehicles only holding 25% of value after 5 years? Not even close, more like 50%. Whoever wrote that obviously hasn't tried to buy a used vehicle. As for an EV only having 10% value, more nonsense. A 5 year old vehicle stripped of the drive train is worth more than that, not to mention with an EV nothing will be even close to wearing out in 5 years. Even if you had to replace the pack the car is worth more than 10%.
JRP3 1 year ago
You pretend that your original comments in your video are "amicable"! No way, anyone else can see that but you. Despite your condemnation of EVs as being "no solution", you offer no solution-- only roadblocks. Certainly to continue to use ICEs is no answer! Two years ago, gasoline was rising dramatically every week, and would have continued to skyrocket except for the huge economic collapse due in part to oil prices. People already began to turn to EVs and hybrids as respite!
billdale1 1 year ago
@billdale1 I'm not saying that EVs will never be practical, simply that they are not yet practical - for all the reasons I cited and (as I just noted in another comment) one of the killers is now their rapid rate of depreciation. In 5-years time, you can expect to get no more than 10% of what you paid for a brand new EV today if you try to sell it. Add that depreciation to your per-mile running cost and see how economic they are right now!
xjet 1 year ago
Here's a question for EV fans. What is the carbon footprint associated with the manufacture of the currently available EVs?
xjet 1 year ago
@xjet Don't know. We eliminate the entire process of mining to machining of the ICE components, exhaust, transmission, 1.5 gallons of motor oil, and replace it with a smaller motor, controller, and batteries. Probably about the same in the end. Of course all testing of the EV is oil free as well.
JRP3 1 year ago
@xjet Hmm I'm not sure where your coming from with this question, it's a little disingenuous. We have to draw a line somewhere. What next, how much C02 do the workers create?, how much air travel do they partake in per year whilst on holiday?.
Industry as a whole needs to wise up and cut back/save money. I think we need to concentrate on emissions first, from tailpipes and power sources.
The air quality benefits can't be ignored , even by the biggest of climate change sceptics
eldictator1 1 year ago
I have no interest in prolonging a dependence on horrendous BP and Middle East oil! With EVs and renewable energy, the hundreds of billions of dollars we currently spend on their increasingly expensive petroleum can then be spent more sanely on health, education, roads & bridges, & paying off our massive national debt. Every cent early adopters spend on EVs reduces the cost of EVs and renewable energy, reduces pollution, makes our streets quieter, & reduces congestion due to tanker trucks.
billdale1 1 year ago
(cont'd) tremendous recent progress on EV tech to increase energy density (directly affecting cost and performance), you somehow assume progress is suddenly dead in the water! Nothing could be further from the truth! Several very promising technologies may end up making EVs even less expensive than ICE cars-- so just who do you think you are helping by such outrageous attacks? You should remove this piece of journalistic drivel from YouTube, and apologize to Bobby!
billdale1 1 year ago
listen up, dirtbag! You start off by attacking Bobby in the most offensive terms, and then, when I force you to admit that he's not the one that is full of crap, you claim that EVs still are not "affordable", which is entirely objective, trying somehow for some reason I cannot imagine other than the fact that you're pig-headed, that EVs will be "truly in the future"... as if they will never be affordable! What's your problem, jackass?! Do you think that even though there has been (cont'd.)
billdale1 1 year ago
@billdale1 Whereas you clearly would never use an offensive term would you (I guess "dirtback" is a term of endearment huh?). I know Bobby -- I've met him and worked with him. I doubt he's taking any offense to my comments. The thing that I've noticed in many discussions such as this is that the value of the comments being made is inversely proportional to the level of swearing and personal insult. I think that says it all.
xjet 1 year ago
I agree that Jeremy Clarkson is a bit of a prat :)
mebirdo 1 year ago
why do U waste yr breath, maniac? You're a dilettante that has NO practical experience whatsoever with EVs (as JRP3 and I do), and until you do, you have no business making such blatantly laughable comments! You attack EVs and Bobby Llewellyn as if you actually KNOW something about batteries and electronics,, but you obviously don't! JRP3 and i have YT vids of our EVs to SHOW that we know what we R talking axouh -- do U?! My EV can outrun anything you put against it, and do so EFFICIENTLY!
billdale1 1 year ago
@billdale1 You are so right. I have *no* practical experience at all with EVs. But, without getting into a pissing contest, I do have a lot of experience with electronics, battery technologies etc, as a result of the UAV systems that I design. EVs can be made very powerful, very efficient and very easy to use - but until they can be all that *AND* affordable, they're still stick well and truly in the future as far as the average consumer is concerned.
xjet 1 year ago
what you do is present the absolute worst-case scenario re: EVs, such as lead-acid battery performance, ignoring anything better such as Altair NanoSafe batteries which the Navy and Army that can be recharged tens of thousands of times without signs or degrading, and then assume that technology will never improve; then you ignore the fact that with each passing day we must go to greater and greater extremes and expense to fuel the incredibly inefficient ICE cars U are so in love with! Delusional
billdale1 1 year ago
what you do is present the absolute worst-case scenario re: EVs, such as lead-acid battery performance, ignoring anything better such as Altair NanoSafe batteries which the Navy and Army that can be recharged tens of thousands of times without signs or degrading, and then assume that technology will never improve; then you ignore the fact that with each passing day we must go to greater and greater extremes and expense to fuel the incredibly inefficient ICE cars U are so in love with! Delusional
billdale1 1 year ago
EV technology has advanced to the point electric cars are in fact practical for a great many people. If you don't want one, don't buy one, you've got plenty of petrol options at your fingertips. Progress always has a beginning, and adopting a sit-back-and-wait approach never got anyone anywhere. Don't want an EV? Don't buy one. But if an EV fits within your daily driving habits, technology has advanced to make that option viable. And they'll only get better, like anything else.
ttrager1 1 year ago
Facts are, oil is gonna run out, and due to that petrol will get very expensive. Fact: Batteries get better every year, and Lithium is gonna get cheaper, so the batteries will too. Fact: until governments are going to tax electric car use, electrically driven cars will run cheap as chips. Face it, between now and 20 years electricity will be the way to go in our everyday cars. Like it or not. B.T.W, I have mixed feelings; I would miss my rumbling little petrolengine very, very much!
classicczech 1 year ago
RAV4EV's have gone over 100K miles on the original pack using NiMH. Newer LiFePO4 cells can do thousands of cycles. Look up Altairnano, A123, SE/CALB, Thundersky, etc. I'm not sure you're aware of current EV technology.
JRP3 1 year ago
@JRP3 I'm fully aware of new technology - I've been using A123/LiFePO4 cells for a couple of years now in various applications and they're great, vastly more robust and safer than lithium-ion - but I haven't yet seen a commercially produced EV that uses them, they tend to rely on the cheaper Li-Ion cells. NiMH will handle far more charge-cycles than lithium-ion and are also far more tolerant of environmental considerations. Practical, affordable EVs are still a ways off.
xjet 1 year ago
@xjet Good thing no one told me that before I built mine, and drive it daily. No one told Nissan either. The Nissan Leaf will use LiMn cells, not sure what the Mitsu iMiev is using. These are all different variations of Lithium Ion cells.
JRP3 1 year ago
@JRP3 Yeap, none of those are using LiFePO4 cells and they're all designs that will rapidly be superseded. These are vehicles for early-adopters who'll buy anything that's new. I think the battery technology that will make EVs truly practical has yet to be invented. EVs will become practical but at this stage, you can get a lot more energy out of a gallon of gasoline than the equivalent volume/weight of batteries.
xjet 1 year ago
@xjet But EV's are so much more efficient you don't need anywhere near the same energy density from batteries. What do you think makes a practical EV? It doesn't need to do all the same things an ICE does. Current technology can give us 200+ mile EV's right now, it just costs too much. All we need is more production volume to drive prices down and 200 mile EV's will be affordable, and at that point I think the benefits outweigh the negatives for most people.
JRP3 1 year ago
@JRP3 EVs will happen -- that's the future. However, right now they just can't match ICE in the areas of affordability, range and convenience. Only when those factors are properly addressed and the required infrastructure is in place, will they be practical alternatives to our gas-guzzlers. It will happen but, despite what Robert Llewellyn might claim, that time has not yet come to pass.
xjet 1 year ago
@xjet For everyone, no, but for many of us, that time is now. I think the Leaf will bring in even more converts. Not everyone wants or needs 100's of miles of range from a vehicle, and many find it very convenient to plug in at home instead of dealing with lines and prices at gas stations. As a second vehicle, an EV is ideal, right now.
JRP3 1 year ago
The electrical utility companies don't shut down distribution ever, unless it's a maintenance shut down. they use peak demand reserve nodes, that are in stand by mode, but even they are online.
I would also add, 40% of homes service would need upgrading. the charging system is around 30amps for a car. be like running a electric oven for 8 hrs everyday.
WizzRacing 1 year ago
@WizzRacing I plug my EV into my 240V 30Amp dryer outlet. It only takes about 3 hours at most if I actually need a full charge for my 50 mile range, which normally lasts me 2-4 days.
JRP3 1 year ago
you're delusional! Only lead-acid batteries need to be recycled as quickly as you assume... many battery chemistries last a decade or more, such as the Ni MH that Santa Monica City has used in their EVs for more than 100 K miles w/out changing cells, saving them a fortune-- & they charge their batteries by solar panels. Li Fe PO4 bats last several years without replacement, and no explosions or fires-- too mny flaws in your statements to respond! U R A DELUSIONAL CRACKPOT!
billdale1 1 year ago
@billdale1 Sorry but just ask an RC model flier how many charge-cycles they get out of their lithium batteries when used in hi-drain applications such as those which would be experienced in an EV. I'm aware of LiFePO4 batteries - but the Tesla Roadster (and most other EVs on the market right now) are using Lithium-Ion cells which are a whole different kettle of fish. How long does a obile phone battery last?
xjet 1 year ago
@xjet RC fliers abuse their cells, most rational EV drivers will not. I also believe RC fliers often use LiPoly cells where Tesla uses LiCo cells.
JRP3 1 year ago
I am surprised that an engineer is so narrow minded when it comes to new technology and its potential. If the pioneers of ICE's would have had the same mind set we would still be on horses.
Is it a generation problem? Things used to be better in the good ole days?
advandermeer 1 year ago
@advandermeer I'm not talking about potential -- I'm talking about what's available right now, and that's not really practical yet. Sure, things will improve, but at present, EV technology simply isn't ready for the big-time. There's not enough neodymium to replace the world's ICEs and battery technology isn't up to the task yet.
xjet 1 year ago
@xjet As I mentioned previously, AC induction motors do not need neodymium, or any rare earth magnets. It's a red herring that either the uniformed or flat out anti EV lobby keeps promoting.
JRP3 1 year ago
@JRP3, The problem with AC induction, is the liability concern with electrical shock or electrocution. I see a 19mm wrench flash into thin air cause it got misplaced. it found its way to the inverter output leads. biggest damn explosion I seen. the pressure produced reached 50k fps and metal particles atomized into the containment cover. you have to be very careful when working on\with any AC system. it did have a GFCI, but since it was a Phase-to-Phase short it was over.
WizzRacing 1 year ago
@WizzRacing You need to be careful when working on any high powered system. Drop a wrench across a high power battery pack terminals and watch the meltdown. Obviously they system will not be running while you work on it, I can grab any terminal on my motor or inverter when it's off with no problems. When I'm driving I'm not near the motor. Inertia switches can disable the pack in an accident, no matter what the drive system. It's not an issue.
JRP3 1 year ago
The batteries in the Prius are a real-world example; they typically last well beyond the rather generous warranty period with no ill effects. You can't extrapolate from laptops and cellphones. Intelligent management of charge and discharge parameters, and temperature, make a tremendous difference. By not trying to eke out the last few percents of capacity, the life is extended. Cellphone batteries are tortured by comparison.
NabooTheWonderDog 1 year ago
@NabooTheWonderDog The Prius isn't an EV -- it's a hybrid. The demands on a the batteries in the Prius are far less than those in a pure EV. NiMH packs work fine in the Prius but the lithium-ion batteries used by most pure EVs are never going to replace good old gasoline.
xjet 1 year ago
@xjet , the same principles apply and in fact you make my case. Battery life is strongly dependent on how the batteries are treated. As you suggest, the Prius batteries are coddled. Similarly, a well-designed EV will take great pains to not overdischarge or overcharge cells, and to maintain balance amongst the cells, in addition to temperature control. These make a huge diff. Again, don't extrapolate from old laptops. There is more to the battery story.
NabooTheWonderDog 1 year ago
@NabooTheWonderDog The problem is that batteries used in a EV are likely to have quite a hard life, despite the manufacturer's best attempts to protect them. Extremes of temperature and humidity are just the start. Lithium batteries perform very poorly at low temps (your EV may be harder to start than your ICE on a cold winter's morning) and there will be a strong need for fast recharge capability, another major factor in reducing battery life.
xjet 1 year ago
@xjet Actually, most EV packs will be underused in the extreme. Even in the US the average daily commute is less than 40 miles per day. Even a 100 mile EV will likely be discharged less than 50%, prolonging their life. An EV will always "Start" in cold weather, it may not be as fast, or go as far. Unless of course you insulate your batteries, and use warmers while you charge, then there will be very little change at all. It may be a bit less efficient in extreme cold, just as your ICE is.
JRP3 1 year ago
@JRP3 It's not just the low-temperature situation that is a concern -- driving an EV in the mid-west on a hot summer's day will see those batteries getting awfully hot -- unless there's a special aircon unit to keep them cool and that's just more energy wasted (ie: reduced range). Storage and operating temps make a huge difference to the life of a lithium battery. If you live in a temperate climate you may be fine -- a continental climate -- well I'd be less optimistic.
xjet 1 year ago
@xjet I've seen very little warming in my LiFePO4 cells on 80+ degree days so far. Small fans would likely take care of any heat in higher temperatures, unless you are really driving the vehicle hard. Common sense can keep you out of trouble, in an EV or an ICE.
JRP3 1 year ago
@JRP3 Remember that LiFePO4 cells are not what is being used in vehicles like the Tesla. I've acknowledged that LiFePO4 chemistry is superior to lithium-Ion but the few commercial EVs that are currently on the market are presently being shipped with Li-Ion, not LiFePO4. The life of a Li-Ion is significantly reduced by high temperatures such as those which may be impossible to avoid in summer when driving on a hot freeway.
xjet 1 year ago
@xjet That's why Tesla uses active cooling for their cells. Yes it uses more electricity, so? Frankly I consider LiCo cells old technology already. Variations of LiFePO4 prismatics will likely take over for EV packs.
JRP3 1 year ago
Just to add to the fossil fuel depletion debate. BP found the biggest oil reserve in the world ever found! one reason they can't stop the thing right now from spewing oil on the gulf. the pressure is off the scale to normal deep water wells!
WizzRacing 1 year ago
The problem is not batteries, it's the rare earth magnets it takes to build the drive system. the total amount on this earth is not enough to build 10% of the cars on the road now! trust me when I say, I know what I'm talking about. one reason the US stopped exporting the rare ore to China. whom by the way is buying as much as they can right now.
WizzRacing 1 year ago
@WizzRacing: PFFFT! you DON'T know what you're talking about! There are creative ways recently patented for getting about the same power from a motor without rare earth magnets; also, there is a trillion dollars worth of lithium and rare earth mineral deposits in Afghanistan in the US control rather than China; still more in Bolivia; and still more in the western US that have yet to begin supplying our needs. And unlike petrol, such minerals can be recycled when their life is spent!
billdale1 1 year ago
@billdale1 Sir, I been working on projects much larger then a car! currently there is no known process to create a suitable replacement for rare earth magnets. you can't make them from other materials. the known amount to this day, will only cover about 10% of the cars on the road. that does not include hard drive's, speed controllers, electric wheel chairs, etc.. that we consume make as well.
WizzRacing 1 year ago
@billdale1, Even if you could replace them and convert 100% of the cars on the road to electric. you better invest $15k+ in a solar power\wind generation system. unless you like having $600.00 electric bills every month! the cost to upgrade the electrical grid would be in the 100's of billions dollars. until they did you would have brown outs all over the country, on a weekly occurrence.
WizzRacing 1 year ago
@WizzRacing , people will charge their cars mostly at night. Many power plants don't shut down at night because it takes them too long to come back on line again. So there is a very large pool of unused and currently wasted capacity. Time of day pricing is available in many areas. It's a win-win for utilities and consumers. True, if tens of millions are sold the grid will eventually need to expand. We should be so lucky!
NabooTheWonderDog 1 year ago
@WizzRacing Actually China has the world's largest reserves of ores containing rare-earth elements such as neodymium and they also have huge lithium reserves - both of which are key components of any shift to EVs. China has halted the export of rare-earth ore and materials because it wants to become the world-leader in the supply of hi-power electric components such as motors and batteries.
xjet 1 year ago
@WizzRacing 3 Phase AC induction motors, such are used in the Tesla, and my conversion, don't use rare earth magnets, so that is not an issue at all. There are also a number of studies that show plenty of lithium world wide for millions of EVs, not to mention newer lithium technologies using nanoscale particles use even LESS lithium per battery. There are lithium mines in the US that closed because the price of lithium was so low. There is a LOT of lithium out there.
JRP3 1 year ago
I think you are being a little unfair on Robert. What I took from his video is that we are closer to the cell phones from the late 80's than we are to modern cell phones (in his comparison). I don't think he was saying that we are "there" already at all. He took a car that was designed a few years ago and said, "Hey if we can do this already, imagine what we can do with todays current technology". As people have mentioned before tech has advanced beyond the tesla and we should support new stuff.
josephstott 1 year ago
I think the biggest point that Rob made is his analogy to the cell phones and the change they made over time. As electric cars become more widely spread your point about batteries goes away as technology gets better and supply increases. Lithium Ion batteries have already dropped by almost 50% in the last 2 years. Early adopters of any new technology are going to pay more. But we all need to thank them because they pave the way for prices to come down.
lawnchairpilot 1 year ago
New batteries and new tech is on the horizon, the tesla roadster and model s plan to recieve new updates.Panasonic has already increased their ah rating per cell from 2.2 to 3.1 ah tesla recently signed a deal We've got lithium silicon nanowires that will hold ten times the charge, the anode is replaced by silicon, Hitachi's new lithium batteries with a new composite oxide material — a lithium-manganese spinel (LiMn204) that will extend life, lithium air batteries that will get 200-400 miles
eldictator1 1 year ago 11
@eldictator1 Model Airplanes use Lithium Polymer and Li-Fe Batteries since 2004.... And they are getting lighter "fuller" and much safer... Stop arguing about stuff that was like 20 Years ago.
If somebody uses those Batteries in a Plane... -.-
EinBick 1 year ago
Your a decent bloke, but your completely wrong. Your basing your entire arguement on one car produced by a start up company.. This is a common trap people fall into. Looking at todays tech and then saying it's useless, because it only serves the needs of 80% of the population and presuming that petrol prices will remain constant and battery tech and charging tech will never advance....Your bashing a product in it's infancy and without a hundred years of constant development.
eldictator1 1 year ago 15
EVs are practical NOW, the hydrogen fuel cell vehicle that the Top Gear boys hailed as the vehicle of the future still costs around a MILLION freaking dollars and has a fuel cell that could never outlast a battery. On top of all that it doesn't make any sense at all to waste electricity produced by coal fired power plants to produce hydrogen for fuel cell cars when you can simply use the electricity to charge your EV directly!
idontcare80 1 year ago
Regardless what type of car is the best, we will have to start producing more (electric) energy. The time of pumping up energy (oil) from the ground is coming to an end. We can't wait for electric cars to be better than petrol cars at everything before we start buying them. To prepare for the future we need a lot of research in the field of electric cars. Also we need people to buy electric cars to finance the research. Start looking forward!
Majsblandare 1 year ago
this is what it says on the tesla website:
How long do the batteries last?
The battery pack in your Tesla Roadster is expected to maintain good driving performance for about 100,000 miles or five years, whichever comes first. Lithium-ion batteries will degrade slightly over time. Our testing and modeling indicate that a typical Tesla Roadster owner who drives 50,000 miles over five years should have about 70 percent of initial performance levels available.
works out at an extra 13p per mile
watchtheskies 2 years ago
I prefer to believe independent data rather than manufacturer's hype. Fir a start, the roaster hasn't been around for 5 years so they are just extrapolating (guessing) at this figure -- right?
Do a Google search for: battery university lithium battery life
and read the article on the BatteryUniversity website as just *one* example of this independent research.
xjet 2 years ago
You should do some research on advances in battery technology - In particular the nanosafe from Altairnano with a purported lifespan of 25 thousand deep cycles ..... Also you seem to be reducing Roberts whole philosophy on the electric car to a question of running costs ...
DingoBabyEat 2 years ago
Teslas data proves your point, 13p per mile adds up to a whole lot of expense, like you say an extra £32 for a fill up so to speak
I guess the mass manufacture of standardized Lithium power units would bring the price way down, but we are no where near that yet
also lithium as an element is massively abundant and 100% recyclable, it doesn't get used up as such, so there would be a value to trading in your old power unit, but that's a long way away
watchtheskies 2 years ago
@xjet
Actually most other lithium batts last around ten years. The Roadster's doesn't because they're applying them to an extremely high-drain application.
If you want real world figures, the NiMH based Rav4Ev has been on the road for 13 years, and drivers report getting 70% of the original range. That's an older chemistry than Li-ion.
Zamboro 1 year ago
How much do we spend on petrol?
It's all about the concept. The tesla rocks when you apply it to cheaper family cars and the products evolution.
It's a solution to the fuel problem.
You're reading too much into a simple statement.
DarkKnightBob1o1 2 years ago
Xjet: Mate, where the hell are you getting the figure of 400 cycles for a Lithium Iron Phosphate battery? Rubbish chinese LiFePO4 are pulling 800, and the A123 cells of the type the Tesla runs are rated at 2-3000 cycles to 80% discharge. Safety issues: You are confusing Li Polymer with Li-ion.
You can drive a nail through a LiFePO4 cell and it wont burn. Homework, squire? For God's sake, do some yourself!
theGreenChesterfield 2 years ago
The technology is coming faster than you might think. Think of nanosafe batteries and A123 systems. The altair nano batteries have around 14 000 FULL battery cycles and the A123 can have around 7 000 FULL cycles. The lightning car that is coming out soon will have nanosafe batteries.
SamNicJohn 2 years ago