Did Jehovah send Jehovah? Amazing

[victoriousihope]

I don't see any two Jehovah there. There is the chief messenger of the Lord Jehovah (the Logos, the future Messiah), who spoke to the young prophet and he present his coming as Jehovah's promise. Is no second God there.

[21crosscheck21]

@victoriousihope He calls Him "Jehovah" so..... I'm not sure what you do with that.

[7777dmith7777]

The only thing I have witnessed Is annoying wierdos knocking on my door....

[peteduel1]

@7777dmith7777 Those wierdos are trying to save your life. They are trying to warn you that if you dont change your ways, you will be executed at armegetton which is so very close.

[7777dmith7777]

@peteduel1 Save my life ? Everybody dies dude..some go to heaven, some go to hell. Me and the big guy are pretty tight and I have all the faith I need.. I have taken his word as written. God does not care if i am a Witness or not . Pushing the belief that if you are not a Witness and that we will meet some impending doom is a crock of shit, also twisting his words out of context ( Witnesses are proven pros for doing such) will only mislead you from the truth...Don't fool yourself.. PEACE

[CaptainArrrgh]

@peteduel1 Yeah, closer than yesterday for sure, and closer than 1913, 1914, 1975 too.

[mstruthseeker11]

Awesome! Huge eye-opener... more evidence that I've been misled my whole life...

Zech 2:10-13

NWT: Jehovah = Jesus, Jehovah of armies = Jehovah (the father)

NIV: Lord = Jesus, Lord Almighty = Jehovah (the father)

[ashemone]

ya coolpassage but revelation 13 verse 18 is a good one 2 jus count the repeated words

[manasseh41]

The NWT ,

IS NOT SCRIPTURE!

[21crosscheck21]

amen

[Justaguy1986]

You have the scripture and the thought out of context. When other prophets of God came to deliver a message or council a person or nation, he came in the name of God. In essence Jehovah was in the midst of the nation or person, meaning that the prophet was his representative. In essence when Christ came to earth he was coming in the name of his Father, thus in essence Jehovah was in the midst of his people. Its like saying Chase is going to visit you and sends someone to "represent" the company

[WorldlyJW]

jws this is 4 u: the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the christ, who is the image of God might not shine through" .2cor 4:3-4)

JW MEN has deceived many 2 blieve jesus/god r separate gods. THE BIBLE IS TRUTH! ISAIAH 43:10-11. 1 god is savior!

jesus is savior!

[Justaguy1986]

Uve said it urself here: "the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers...2cor 4:3-4)"......Notice the begining "the god of this system of things" Satan here is refered as a god....is this indicating that he was part of the Trinity and didn't make the cut and was kicked....no....he is referred as such bcuz he has a sort of authority over ungodly men of this world....being their god....ruler...if you will...

[Justaguy1986]

So to answer your initial question yes God is Savior and so how can there be two saviors....well easy because there is only one...Jehovah. John 3:16...Without him giving him to the world there wouldn't been no savior just like if he never sent Moses to save the Hebrews from slavery...

[Justaguy1986]

So the thought expressd toward Satan, can it not be in the same matter since Christ been given a measuer of authority over the Earth, given by God Almighty? 1 Corin. 15....N why would he give something to himself that already belongs to him? N Christ bein image of God, how about us? R we not image of God too?

[robotwookie]

The problem my friend is that you have been mislead. If you only know how the NWT has twisted scripture, you would become sick to your stomach. I am an ex-JW. The history: Russell used pyramids to decode bible prophesy, they have been in contact with angels for information, they are false prophets and so much more. You could not know this because you cant read old material. Why is that? Would Jehovah approve of leadership that lies to you about this? Cults of the last days my friend.Mormons JW's

[peteduel1]

@robotwookie As an ex-JW you should also know that God uses whom or what to acomplish his will.

[robotwookie]

@peteduel1 Sure, but what is obvious is the he never used TWBATS.

[indigochild79]

Well this would not come as a surprise to a non JW christian right? If you believe in trinity, god actually sent himself down to earth as Jesus..

No im not a JW!! Im just a guy not believing in trinity.

[poginard89]

VERY TRUE!!!

[HappyHolyJoe]

Not all JWs are true believers. Many are in the Watchtower organization for other reasons, such as fellowship/socializing, sadomasochism, not wanting to lose contact with family, etc.

For the sincere, the true believers, the ones who really believe God works only through Watchtower Jehovah Witness, and that all others claiming to be Christians are evil, to stay in that sect, they must be really, really dumb and stupid and obtuse.

[trikker01]

Yes it is amazing and true that Jehovah sent Jehovah!

[poginard89]

you know the answer!! dnt believe in trinity! thats all i can say

[Arrsht]

Isa. 48:16 also has Jehovah speaking and has him saying that Jehovah has sent him and the Spirit.

The NWT also puts quotes there as if Isaiah is speaking but this will not do since the one speaking says he has been here from the beginning.

Isa. 48:16 Come you near to me, hear you this; from the beginning I have not spoken in secret; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord Yahweh has sent me, and his Spirit.

Also Gen. 19:24 has Jehovah raining fire from Jehovah in the heavens.

[Larsguy1992]

In defense of JW and the NWT, again the QUOTE ends Jehovah's speaking and thus reverts to Zechariah speaking after that. It NORMALLY would not have been confused since Jehovah wouldn't send himself, and certainly is no movement toward Jehovah being Christ. So you are presuming JWs and the NWT has Jehovah still speaking but they don't and wouldn't. The end quote distinguishes Jah speaking vs Zechariah speaking. So you've created a classical "straw man" here. But nice passage, nice try! I'm a fan!

[clintjordan]

@Larsguy1992 No, you fail largely to understand the argument set forth. Let's take a look:

[clintjordan]

@Larsguy1992 Zecharirah 2:8-10, "For thus says the LORD of hosts, 'After glory He has sent me against the nations which plunder you, for he who touches you, touches the apple of His eye. For behold, I will wave My hand over them so that they will be plunder for their slaves. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me. Sing for joy and be glad, O daughter of Zion; for behold I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,' declares the LORD."

[clintjordan]

@Larsguy1992 Verses 8 and 10 identify the speaker as YHWH, "For thus says the LORD of hosts..., " (v. 8) and "...for behold I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,' declares the LORD" (v. 10).

Who said, "...for behold I am coming and I will dwell in your midst"? It's obvious, v. 10 gives the answer, it was the LORD.

[clintjordan]

@Larsguy1992 It's all too commonly argued that v. 11 is Zechariah speaking when it says, "Many nations will join themselves to the LORD in that day and will become My people Then I will dwell in your midst, and you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you."

Let's say the Unitarian assumption is correct, that Zechariah is speaking in v. 11.

However, they fail to look just two verses up, where YHWH said that He Himself would dwell amongst the Jews.

[clintjordan]

@Larsguy1992 It's not really v. 11 that should be pointed to, but vv. 9-10:

"'For behold, I will wave My hand over them so that they will be plunder for their slaves. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me. Sing for joy and be glad, O daughter of Zion; for behold I AM COMING and I WILL DWELL IN YOUR MIDST,' declares the *LORD.*"

[clintjordan]

@Larsguy1992 So given vv. 8-10, where YHWH is speaking, it's theological suicide to assume Zechariah is speaking in v. 11. Stick with the context.

[Larsguy1992]

Wow 21cc, just when I was so impressed with your understanding. My take is that the final reference is Zechariah himself saying that he is being sent and this is not a reference to Jehovah sending HIMSELF, since that makes no sense. The beginning of the chapter is in the context of Zechariah talking about himself. The QUOTE ends and does include the last statement. So technically the NWT does not have Jehovah saying he is sending himself, but that reference belongs to Zechariah to himself.

[stonewallgregg]

ditto. another day in the life of a trinitarian.

[stonewallgregg]

Same thing back at vs 6. Jehovah of armies has sent me. This is with reference to Zechariah, not Jehovah sending Jehovah. In addition, this is a restoration prophecy after the Babylon exile, not a messianic prophecy. I clicked on the audio preview and stephen hawking read my comment so i know its correct.

[zero2hero12]

interestingly hebrews2:2,3 seems to indicate that none of the angels moses communicated with was the logos

[21crosscheck21]

Zero, I don't see how those verses indicate that the angel of Jehovah was not the Logos. Can you elaborate?

[zero2hero12]

I also believe that the logos appears in the O.T as Jehovah's angel what the verses in hebrews2:2,3 are suggesting is that none of the angels used to communicate the Torah to moses would have been him note the contrast between the angels in verse2 and our lord{the logos]in verse3

[21crosscheck21]

Thanks for the clarification Zero, I will look at that.

[21crosscheck21]

In any plain reading of this text Jehovah sends Jehovah.

[zero2hero12]

exodus3:2 according to the A.S.V "and the ANGEL of Jehovah appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush...,Exodus3:4 "and when JEHOVAH saw that he turned aside GOD called unto him out of the midst of the bush...Exodus3:6 "moreover he said,I am the God of thy father,the God of Abraham,the God of Isaac,and the God of Jacob" its a very commonly used metaphor in scripture to speak of the angel of Jehovah as if referring to Jehovah himself.

[21crosscheck21]

"the angel of Jehovah" is often referred to as Jehovah and worshipped as Jehovah beacuse he is the pre-incarnate Jesus who is God (Jehovah)

[zero2hero12]

Jesus the angel?which one of us is the Jehovah's witness again?the angels are Jehovah's servants/representatives,worsh­ippers not Jehovah psalms104:4 also consider john1:18 it plainly states that no one has ever seen Jehovah,exodus33:20 tell us why this is so.

[21crosscheck21]

"Jesus the angel?which one of us is the Jehovah's witness again?" Good one Zero That was funny"

Christians generally view "the angel of Jehovah" as the pre-incarnate Christ. He is viewed as an angel in the sense of "function" and not "nature." And as Jesus is God, he is rightly called Jehovah in this capacity and rightly worshiped as well.

[zero2hero12]

the word 'malakh'basically means messenger and can even be applied to humans mal2:7 so all malakh are such in the sense of function but if one is personally present one does not require a messenger so Jehovah cannot be his own malakh that is why the malakhim are called his ministers psalms104:4 also the fact that men have seen the malakh of Jehovah and lived reinforces the point that a representative of Jehovah is what was seen and not jehovah himself ex33:20,john1:18,judges13:21,2­2

[21crosscheck21]

These verses and many others indicate that Jesus, as the one who reveals God, at certain points prior to becoming flesh had at times taken on some sort of form that man can see and interact with. And as God is Father , Son and Spirit Jesus can function a unique messenger of God and be worshiped as God without contradiction.

[zero2hero12]

of course the the two concepts are in contradiction the scriptures plainly tell us that no human has ever literally seen the eternal creator Jehovah John1:18 and can ever see him ex33:20 this idea is expressed in forceful absolutes how can we contend then that humans have indeed literally beheld the eternal Jehovah and not be in contradiction.A metaphorical understanding of any reference to seeing Jehovah in scripture is the only sensible interpretation of such occurrences job42:5

[21crosscheck21]

Zero, I love that phrase you used: "this idea is expressed in forceful absolutes" Well said!

Anyway...for God to take on a "form" and appear to a man , the man does not "see" God in the literal sense of the word, he sees the "form" that God has used to make himself visible.

I agree Job 42:5 is metaphorical but the context is different (v-6)Job understanding the Holiness of God saw himself as the sinner he was and repented.

[zero2hero12]

regardless of what form Jehovah took he would remain Jehovah the form he took would in this context be literally Jehovah's form if men then literally saw this form then they would have literally seen Jehovah's form a clear contradiction of john5:37,also at gal3:19 it is indicated that several angels were used to convey the torah they all could not be the logos.so most of the time moses would have been speaking an angel other than the logos ex:25:22,acts17:24

[21crosscheck21]

Zero, in John 5:37 it also say that they never "heard his voice'" How do you view that statement?

[zero2hero12]

as accurate john17:17

[21crosscheck21]

Just to be clear I am not saying that every time an angel speaks in the OT it is the Logos.

[stonewallgregg]

If Jesus is the angel of Jehovah, no doubt he is the highest of all the angels, right?

[Djaejn]

Sorry... please read comments from the bottom! WOOPS.. this one is the last one, promise;)

Besides that, Jehovah has in many occasions used his son to represent him, which is why he is the mediator for our prayers, the perfect example in deeds -- he does everything accordingly to his will and ways -- just like Jehovah would have done himself, if it wasn't for the fact that he takes so much pleasure in sharing life and deeds with others, in this case his son.

All about grammar. Made sense??

[Djaejn]

Have you noticed "the utterance from Jehovah"-part in verse 10? In verse 9 (just as in verse 11) this angle refers to himself again, and if you read your cross-reference to Jeremiah 28:9, you will see, that it is referring to 'the prophet who speaks of peace'... who will be 'known as the one Jehovah has send'.... Jesus Christ.

[Djaejn]

This second angle speaks on Jehovahs behalf throughout the whole 2nd chapter of Zachariah. The speaker and the one being sent is Christ Jesus.

Of the scriptures you are mentioning, if you don't take them out of their context, you will then be able to see, that he refers to Jehovah in the first part of verse 11 and to himself in the latter part of verse 11.

[Djaejn]

This second angle speaks on Jehovahs behalf throughout the whole 2nd chapter of Zachariah. The speaker and the one being sent is Christ Jesus.

Of the scriptures you are mentioning, if you don't take them out of their context, you will then be able to see, that he refers to Jehovah in the first part of verse 11 and to himself in the latter part of verse 11.

[Djaejn]

I'll have to spread my reply over a few "comments" here, bear with me: Read in the context (the whole 2nd chapter), Zachariah lifts up his eyes and watches a "man" whom he starts a conversation with. This man is then introduced as an angle, and another angle joins them to tell the first angle to let Zachariah know about the future Jerusalem, where Jehovah himself will reside in the midst of them, his loyal people. The 2nd angle then refers to what Jehovah had instructed him to pass on.