Re: Re: Watchmen Review

[simplesnip3z]

Nice Nose Ring, Where Can I Get One?

I'm kidding, don't tell me.. I don't give a shit.. It looks gay.

[msa1985]

4:33-4:36

[Feoremar]

I liked Godzilla. :(

And the egg at the end was meant to lead into the animated series, where that Godzilla hatched, saw the main character, decided he was its mother and then protected New York.

[1iddqd]

Dude, that was the worst video I've ever seen.

[xsilexemcx]

You know, you kind of look like the Comedian.

[hazaraku]

Uhm, no?

[xsilexemcx]

You don't see the resemblance?

[hazaraku]

Well like Jeff here I didn't quite like the movie, and consequently I'v sort of forgotten what he looked like there, but he certainly looks nothing like the Comedian in the GN

[DrCruel]

Mind, this isn't to say that the underlying story was all that bad - just that it was covered withan intolerable layer of Moore's "dukkha".

I don't begrudge others for liking his stuff (unless they piss me off). But I don't like his stuff in general - not because I don't "get" it, but because I do.

Moore can be a real pain in the arse when he wants. Snyder is not nearly as bad. He does a good job of sanitizing and tightening Moores story - which may not work for everyone, but does for me.

[DrCruel]

*) The vacuous Left radical ideology slammed home at every opportunity.

*) The lame insults directed at others in the comic business (especially Ditko).

*) The allegories to 1980s politics that fall flat when taken at face value (ie, the squid).

*) The generally weak understanding of concept ramifications (ie, how precognition would affect behavior).

*) The overall obscene pretentiousness of the work throughout.

[DrCruel]

The graphic novel was crap. Snyder's film helped to make it palatable, but the underlying ideology was still just so much crap.

Maybe if the graphic novel wasn't so crappy, the movie would have done better at the box office. Even so, the film still managed to generate over $100 million in revenue within a few months. I doubt the comic has been anywhere near as successful over teh last twenty years, despite fanboys gushing with praise over its sophomoric Left-wing "elitist" crappiness.

[Sh0nin]

I'm really curious, what exactly makes you think the graphic novel was "crap"?

[Fingyfin]

The movie is shit.

If you didn't read the book (like me) your gonna wan't to chew your arm off to pass the long and boring parts all the way through the movie. The action sequences that are shown in the trailer are the only action sequences, the movie is crap.

The point where i felt most happy was the start of the movie and the end so i could finally do something worthwhile.

[thewizardofqz]

I guess I'll reply to this one too...LOL, Did to your az profile.

Jon didn't kill Adrian, to me, because he understood, he understood why Adrain did what he did, and in the end killing him would not solve anything. He was about to kill Adrian, til he relalised why he did it. I agree Jon does represent the metaphor for god, due to his ominous power and detachment from humanity. And Jon doesn't have the ego to care and seek revenge.

I do agree that they didn't do much of Adrian's backstory.

[thewizardofqz]

Rorschach's journal did reveal info and was dropped off at the newspaper company before going to antartica. Talked about the comedian deaths plus revealing his identity(edward blake), talked about the list(cancer) with Janey's slater and moloch name in it. Talked about Roy Chess(assassin) working for Pyramid delivery company(owned by Veidt), mentions that veidt is behind everything. Plus many things that probably weren't even mentioned. In the end its atleast enough to persue an investigation.

[ZebraFeet]

This movie was just garbage, plain and simple. The plot is completely retroactive and like you said the characters are either underdeveloped or broken. I actually had to take multiple breaks to get through this godawful abomination. Thank god I didn't see it in theaters because I would have walked out within the first thirty minutes.

The only way Watchmen could of been done properly is if it was overhauled and properly "adapted" like what was done for V For Vendetta.

[kyufa]

Wrong. The story could have had a bit more justice done to it if it was either a trilogy (at the very least) or an HBO series.

[mmariebored]

It's intriguing, the things you rant over, entertainment in my favorite form anyway.

Maybe the movie was designed for just that purpose. Mind stretching.

[Leekilicious]

Each person in Watchmen represents the different ways to view the world. "It's all a joke" -The Comedian. Other than that, you're totally right about Adrian.

Oh, and if pyrrho makes fun of your nosering one more time, I'm going to have to stab him in the eye with my dick D:

[Rythsaad]

Wait, you're assuming that the writer posed John as a metaphor for God just because his reaction or lack thereof at the end wasn't explained? That's not what you meant, was it?

I could argue that he didn't react just because he doesn't have much of an ego. What does he care, if someone accuses him of armageddon? He knows he didn't do it and it's not like he has to defend himself, so end of story.

[Rythsaad]

If you really need a precedent to that, go back to when he was accused of giving cancer to people he frequently interacted with. He acknowledged that and wasn't fazed by it in the slightest.

And Rorschach mailed his journal after they uncovered who was behind the costume killings, right before going to Antarctica. That moment is in the movie.

[thingthingy]

Oh, I remember that film - The Perfume. Or is it just Perfume? Any way, that was great. I wouldn't say it was my favourite film though, probably not top 5, maybe not even top 10. The Conversation is probably my favourite film, but I'm probably forgetting something.

This is important information.

[Trollschool]

Apparently comment words are now double spaced compared to what they once were.

It's giving me a headache ...

[missuscake]

this makes more sense than your first video. I get what your saying. I think the reason Jon reacts that way is still because he sees that the trick works.

The Journal is a ray of hope its a tiny sliver that maybe somebody will make the connection.

I understand that its harder to see it without reading the comic, but you got to understand this movie was made by Zack Snyder for fans of the comic. Not saying that you can't see it otherwise but that was his intent.

[marniespeaks]

watchmen was like all cool and interesting in the 1st half hour then it got stupid, boring and preachy Hollywood is like the new church of tit sucking hope - have we really fallen that far in our evolution?

[brokennarcissist]

A sign of cyclitity in a metanarrative about the continuity of comics? That would make sense in context.

Adrian is billed as 'the smartest man in the world' its more of marketing angle in the comic. His actual intellect is left ambigious.

Didn't see the moive because Watchmen has the reputation of being the comic book that could not be properly adapted for a reason.

[CelphaFiael]

0:22-0:34 = brilliance

[Ignare]

Why should caracter be consistent ? We can have a character acting inconsistantly and not look like a writer's deus ex machina if we have a justification for this inconsistancy. But John is justify to care about humanity again because he reconcile with humanity after realizing that we are a low probality physical event. Anyway my 2 cent,

[ShakespearesFool]

The book is, in actuality, a good read.

[azrienoch]

This video is hardly an argument for the movie to be interpreted as I have interpreted it. It's an explanation of my interpretation. I don't appreciate your tone, nor your presumption that this is somehow an attack on you and yours. I'm certainly not the one claiming that interpreting it my way is the only way to be considered smart in this area, so piss off. I don't deserve your rudeness.

[StevenErnest]

Az, I apologize, I was out of line. I think you know that was uncharacteristic of me.  I meant no disrespect, if I didn't respect you I wouldn't keep commenting.

I know you're not saying your view is the "right" view. I just see this like those Debate Faith discussions where no one seems to hear the other person.

Sometimes emotions cloud my reason. I'm sorry for my rudeness. I apologize.

[JustA11en]

*applauds*

[LanceDirk]

You say his reaction is unprecedented, but I say it kind of is, but in a way that kind of supports your point. When faced with his responsibility for giving cancer to people he cares about, he becomes very ashamed and angry. Now, maybe no one who he cared about died, but when he was being blamed for it by everyone, it made him angry. So, a reaction to being blamed for something is precedented, but his reaction of indifference isn't really.

[Rythsaad]

"he becomes very ashamed and angry"

Err...no he didn't.

He only displayed those emotions after his sick ex-girlfriend came in.

Which shows that the only thing that keeps John attached to humanity is pussy...

[axisapex]

I only seen the second half of this movie, i thought it was trying to imply justification of means.  As there peace relied upon falsehoods of sympathy .

[FrostyPhilosopher]

"It's not like we saw Rorschach mailing it off right before they went into the arctic..."

But, we saw him drop it off, right?

I still disagree about the movie. I think it was really entertaining. But, the book is great of course.

[StevenErnest]

Right, we see him slide it thru the mail slot in the newspaper's office door.

[Killersepp]

Sorry for the OT:

Perfume is you favourite movie?

Well, it's one of my favourite books... but till today, I haven't seen the movie, due to the fear that it might spoil it for me - even though I'm *also* a huge fan of Tom Tykwer. Have you read the book, and can you compare it to the movie?

On the other hand.... "Watchemen" is also one of my favourite books... and I liked the movie ;-)

[bucephalonius]

Character development was incredibly important in the book so if the movie screwed up on that I can see how you would be displeased with it. Though I have yet to see the move.

[woodyrimshot]

Hey Jeff! Have you ever seen "The Machinest"?

[MonkeyFinger23]

OMG, that movies crazy. Christian Bale is so damn skinny in that film.

[taliajazel]

yes, after watching it, it seemed inconsistent, and that whole "sphinx" thing did make go "wtf is that doing there?!"

still enjoyed it though.

[SameFatCrow]

i believe alan moore has asked his name to taken off of every movie adapted from his comics and refused the money as well.

[RufioJJ]

ive agreed with you since the first 'defense' video about this overly-hyped video.

it seems that certain Watchmen gurus/nerds/not-the-highest-qu­ality-of movie-critic are striking back and its so sad.

[lollygager3664]

It didn't really translate very well into the motion picture format. Some of it was great and other parts were akward.

The book was far superior.

[cozmikzen]

Karplah

[StuartGalore]

Treasure your life, count your blessings...you are blessed...

[Dadalama]

when I seen the movie, I'm starting to formulate an opinion similar to yours. I still loved the movie don't get me wrong but Moore said it couldn't be done and it really wasn't.

Comics that are more than just weird little second circuit blurbs, really don't convert well to movies.

I still didn't get the religious propaganda thing but "atheism" isn't my thing. TBH I only recently started calling myself an atheist.

[azrienoch]

My conclusion that it is religious propaganda is that it promotes that fear, and thus belief, in a higher power is how world peace is achieved.  It serves as a rhetorical gateway to God.

[Dadalama]

yeah I should've reworded that. I understood but it wasn't what I took from it.

Funny it was sympathy in the book... that's atleast how I interpreted it anyways.

[pyrrho314]

the structure of the story however, suggest there isn't really a solution, and that the superhero intervention is a net negative. We are not given reason to think otherwise when a bunch of vigilantes, already shown to be a net negative, agree it's all good. They are wrong in the end like they've been shown wrong all through the movie...

[pyrrho314]

another thing is the story is about superheroes, and also their fans, and the requisite love of violent solutions, tradeoffs about why you can kill rather than arrest a petty criminal or threatening journalist. The story makes an interpretation available to those fans that this ends well like a good superhero story. But is this a regular good superhero story? No, this is the inferior interpretation, to take it you have ignore what the movie says about your violence fandome.

[imrational]

eh, watch "Watchmen: The Motion Comic".

[PianoIsTheRemedy]

Az, you need to take a look on hulu at an old outer limits episode called "The Architects of Fear." "Scientists plan to save Earth from nuclear war by uniting it against a manufactured alien foe." LOL I'd link you if I could.

[StevenErnest]

If you wiki, Architects of Fear, it mentions a 1948 short story with this idea, and several later works post Outer Limits.

The movie's change to a Superbeing, with God-like abilities obviously puts a different spin on the alien idea.

[LilCav68]

my son read the book-graphic novel-whatever a few years ago. he's on the fence about seeing the movie. i'll pass your video onto him

[JasperAvi]

I don't know that John gets so worked up at the end because it was his fault in particular. I don't think that that was the scenario as it played out.

He felt terrible for the woman in Vietnam and was visibly annoyed with The Comedian for killing her in cold blood. Seemingly from both an ethical and empathetical point of view.

It would make sense he would express the same emotion after coming back to his love for the oddity that is humanity.

Also, this seems evidenced in his comment that

[JasperAvi]

he needs to leave the earth for a planet less complicated. He seems to realize that earth, because of pain and consciousness is not just the same as any other random rock in the universe.

[pyrrho314]

Why wouldn't he bring The Comedian to Justice. If he had, then Watergate would not have been surpressed. Had he been arrested for the sexual aussault even earlier, JFK would not have been assasinated, or.. well, maybe somone else would have done that... but you get my drift.

He built the bomb that destroys New York. Blue Dude == Net Loss. Granted, I'd love to be in his position. Personally I get the geometric 2001 play on Mars, sounds good.

But he's no hero to mankind.

[StevenErnest]

It's clearer in the book than the film, but Jon sees all time has happening at once -- now -- kind of deterministically. So he had "already" let the Comedian kill the girl. But he only sees his own life like this, so he would not have known about the Comedian's assassination of JFK and Woodward and Bernstein, etc. Although in the book he tells Laurie he knew JFK would be killed.

What do you mean by, "...geometric 2001 play on Mars..."?

[pyrrho314]

he didn't save the girl and didn't punish Comedian... yes, he saw this, meaning he saw he would not have the character to do the right thing or care enough to know what he'd done wrong. He did destroy new york, as part of being a weaponized entity employed by a militaristic goverment.

The 2001 thing I mean is the blissed out trippy joy in abstractions Jon has reminds me of Clarke and 2001.

[StevenErnest]

Jon didn't destroy NY... Adrian destroyed some of NY, LA, etc.., using Jon's technology, and "energy signature," so as to blame it on Jon. The tachyon interference kept Jon from seeing this coming. He'd always been on the U.S.'s side, so they must figure he went rogue.

Anyway, you understood the film so well, I'm probably misunderstanding you. ;)

Jon's creation on Mars was even more amazing via cgi than the book's.

There actually is a smiley-face crater on Mars, the Galle crater.

[pyrrho314]

I know I mean jon created that technology... it's like creating a bomb that the government then drops somewhere... only no one else on the planet could have made it besides you... he was culpable for working in military research and design. He thought this was for energy? Not too bright then given what he'd been doing for them vaporizing the vietnamese.

[StevenErnest]

That's a good point. Almost any technology can be used for good or ill. And Jon's naive with human affairs.

In the novel, everyone is driving around in electric cars -- there are recharging "spark" hydrants on the street corners; it's explained that Dr. Manhattan's tech advances made smaller, powerful batteries possible.

And Rorschach's mask (originally a dress!) is made of a viscous liquid material developed by Dr. M. So there's more subtext that a superbeing would influence the world.

[nicanicabad]

...and then I stopped laughing and loved the video. I need to watch this movie.

[RoomOfMusic]

Take that out of your nose.

[digiring]

Put one into yours.

[debakle001]

omg mr jeff smith luedke. you are kick ass. im getting around to reading your book. but does lulu deliver to australia. gotta read noam chomsky first

[pyrrho314]

the journal criticism is legit, it was just a close parenthesis and they didn't have an open parenthesis, like perhaps the same guy opening the book to read it, etc... and even that is a weak technique.

however, that sort of thing works better in comics, and perhaps that's the influence there.

[pyrrho314]

well, I see your point if it seems that you like some acrobatics in the work, espc I would guess in the conclusion... so you don't want to see an unexplained emotion at the end. That's like a wild card, the writer gets to do anything at the end. Is that it in my own words? I do see that.

It seems to me these heroes desire self satisfaction, and to me it seemed he could save humanity with a quick murder and taking the blame, which would require him leaving his role as planetary savior.

[pyrrho314]

That role was unwanted by him anyway... so it was all a convienience to do what he wanted, expressing his own power and fuck all else.

[jeffsmithluedke]

I don't know that it's a matter of unexplained emotion. If a character has a tendency to have unexplained emotional responses, then there's a precedent. It's a matter of good character and plot writing.

[pyrrho314]

I see that. As I said, after we have "vigilante's with super powers is a right wing distopia" I'm sold. Therefore, the rest I'm more forgiving of... in fact, willing to make continuity by choosing a possible interpretation not meant at all to represent what the author was thinking, but rather what could have been if, say the author was just one biased witness.

[pyrrho314]

I admit and agree that the places you criticize are in fact where the movie is weakest.

But I disagree that it's a religious metaphor if you mean pro-religious, I think it's critical of God as a superhero, iow, a god like that would be just as terrible as great, no boon, and over all make the world a worse place. A more violent place where even the sweet superheroes just kill people they are fighting as a matter of course.

[StevenErnest]

Jon does have unexplained emotional responses: He dumps his first major love for jailbait. He trio-fucks her whilst he's working, sees nothing wrong with it. Sees time as semi-deterministic; what happens, happens. Goes from being the U.S.'s nightmare super-weapon, to the world's nightmare super-weapon. Cares enough to shoulder this burden, cares enough to kiss Laurie, but has had it enough to leave this world and design another.

[jeffsmithluedke]

I understand that these were the intentions of the book. And really, they make the book great.  The movie is its own thing, and none of these are evident.

[Ephemerance]

maybe they weren't as pronounced as they should have been, but the implications were still there.

The tiger was even hinted toward by Adryen's fascination with Egyptians and ancient civilizations. They tried to make it resemble a sphinx.

[jeffsmithluedke]

Oh, I'll agree that there's reference to these things. But implication? Think of implication in terms of triangulation. When a scene implies something, there must be two points of reference and the implication itself, making a triangle. The problem here is that only one point of reference is in the movie. The other is in the book, which requires reading the book of the viewers. That's just poor movie-making.

[jeffsmithluedke]

The tiger... I did not get the sphinx reference at all. Probably because it looks nothing like a sphinx. The horns however look like those on Isis, so I get the reference to Egyptian shit. Nonetheless, there's suddenly this odd creature sitting there, no matter how appropriate to the environment, with no explanation or reason.

[pyrrho314]

I felt this reasoning was present in the movie, I never read the books... I'd heard of them, but not of the plot or any details of it.

[Ephemerance]

Manhattan fled to mars in the same fashion that an elephant might run away from the deep rumblings of a distant tsunami. He was gone for the duration of the explosions, and returned when it was safe (perhaps because he was weak against the influence of the tacheon emissions).

Before the explosion, he couldn't see into the future. After the explosion, he couldn't see into the past. -- as the explosion was happening (while he was chatting it up with his ex, he was blinded from his powers) cont.

[RowanFortuneWood]

Cyclicality.

Good response.

[jeffsmithluedke]

Or cyclicity.

Thanks.

[digiring]

If he was human and experienced time, you would be right. But he was not. *shrug* It seems to me that you are complaining that a potted plant didn't report a murder it witnessed.

[jeffsmithluedke]

Not at all. John's perception of time as a whole becomes irrelevant when he can't see a certain portion of his future. He can now be surprised.

[StevenErnest]

Right, Jon is suprised and allows it to stand. Laurie re-kindled his sense of wonder, but he's had it was us squabbling hairless-apes. He simply doesn't care or mind if they want to lay this burden on him -- he cares enough that it stopped nuclear war. But this Atlas shrugs off humanity, and heads out to see if he can do better.

[EVHisgodyoumuppet]

I haven't seen it, and I really don't like the sound of it.

Superhero films (except for the dark knight) are always incredibly flawed.

Sidermen is good, except for the terrible dialogue (and there's Kirsten Dunst) and X men III had the stupidest ending - just have some balls and kill of xavier, you buch of pussies (and that's another point, shouldn't it be pronounce something more like Zav-ee-ay, not Ex-ay-vee-er?)

[StevenErnest]

I've always heard it pronounced that was, as with Xavier Cugat. Obviously it's pronounced Ex-ay-vee-er to make the "X", as in X-Men, sound. Sounds cooler.

[EVHisgodyoumuppet]

True, I haven't given that much thought...

[dackjaniels555]

FURST!