Mormon Coffee Tabletalk #1 - Andrew G. and Aaron Shafovaloff

[Ldb29corn]

i thought mormons don't drink coffee...

[brandimartin5]

Thank you both for your honesty.

[littlemas2]

Fascinating discussion. Please find a way to continue them.

[nathanielmacrae]

bethinking org

[muncastro]

Here we see a profound difference between Joseph Smith Mormonism and mainstream Christianity. JS assumed that the universe was infinite and that God was no more than a fellow denizen of the universe. JS taught that God is an exalted man; that we are of the same species as God; that God has a body; and that we have the potential to become a god. He even identifies where God lives and governs from (nigh Kolob) M* Christians believe God exists apart from the universe, calling it into existence.

[muncastro]

"we only know a visible universe." Nope, I disagree. From a super empiricist standpoint we only know perceptions or ideas in our mind. For example, I see a table before me but the color and the feel of the table are categories in my mind and do not belong to an external table. Our minds live in a large sea of flowing ideas. Perhaps that larger sea of ideas is the mind of God. So are you sure that things around you exist external to the ideas in your mind? Are you sure? Why?

[muncastro]

We know that the universe is finite because, since Einstein, this lies at the heart of modern physics. See Stephen Hawking THE UNIVERSE IN A NUTSHELL. Aristotle said that each thing in the universe is cause by something else until you go back to the first cause of the universe. This first cause must be greater than the universe itself and must at least be intelligent or something beyond what we call intelligent. You could probably read up on Aristotle yourself.

[muncastro]

Ok. I'll bite. Philosophically, I am sure that there is a God because I buy Aristotle's first cause argument plus argument from design. Aristotle's argument is even more valid today since we now know that we live in a universe whose dimensions (including time) are finite. Therefore, the universe's first cause must be an intelligence existing outside the dimensions of the universe (including time). I disbelieve that a simple big bang could have designed the universe as we know it.

[aaronshaf2006]

For starters, there is absolutely only one God for all worlds and all universes who should be worshiped. Eternal life is given as a gift, and the whole scope of salvation (not mere resurrection) is designed so that God gets all the credit, and it has nothing to do with somehow fulfilling a prerequisite worthiness or merit or earning. Christians have had all their sins forgiven, are justified, and spiritually adopted, and are automatically sealed to all Christians forever.

[thenephite0305]

Kumbaya my lord, kumbaya...and i forget the rest.

if it makes you feel any better i think youre apostate too and all that good jazz.

i do commend you for your refusal to compromise your beliefs.

you know, i have read the Miracle of Forgiveness, ive also read the Book of Mormon, ill let you guess as to which i consider more binding as far as doctrine goes.

of course i dont know what forever means, im inside this temporal existence. do you really know what forever means?

trust Jesus =)

[dimtry19]

The true gospel,proclaimed once and for all 2000 years ago NEVER needed to be 'restored" or "another "testyament' but only our reconciling to it..God got it right the first time through the Church he founded and to whom he made a solemn vow to NEVER abandon it to the "gates of hell" (falsehood)in Matt.16:18-19.. Withit the KEYS to discern biblical truths under the guidance of the Holy Spirit CORRECTLY ..INDIVIDUALS thru the years may have been corrupt but the Word of God remains forever.

[dimtry19]

..Just because Joseph smith took words and verses from the Bible, making it appeal to the spiritual "senses" does not make it a true religious document...the muslim prophet, mohammed did the SAME thing in putting together his own "other testament, the Koran... in fact, BOTH used the SAME story-line and arguments to justify starting the "religions": ..visits from an "angel" ( Gabriel/ Moroni)..that ALL the churches were "false"... that another "testament" (Koran/ book of mormon) existed....

[dimtry19]

..Sorry, dudes..you trivalise true othodox christian doctrine in the name of religious "correctness" and "kumbaya".. A church which at its VERY inception was steeped in such falsehood whose founders, Jos.Smith, Brigham Young et alt.distorted old testament narrative to justify immorality (polygamy) and racism CANNOT be of God no matter how much the mormon church 'retracts", spins, tweaks its doctrines years later out of political or religious "correctness"..

[aaronshaf2006]

dimtry19, I sincerely apologize if I have trivialized the important issues. I also believe that the Mormon Church is of the devil, and that Smith was a false prophet. I for one see no realistic expectation of the Mormon Church reversing its direction of heresy and I pray that my interactions, which are a mix of assertive preaching and unassertive conversation, can help people come to know the truth.

[j2mnorcal]

The prayer was actually for Andrew - got the names mixed up. But I am praying for you too Aaron. Stay strong and keep up the conversations with our Mormon friends.

[j2mnorcal]

I think you summed it up when you admitted that you don't know what you mean when you say "from Forever to Forever". Ask God NOW what that means and you will find a different God and Jesus than that of Mormonism. I will pray that for you now. Lord Jesus, there is a heart for you in this man, Aaron. Reach into his life, God, and take his heart for Your glory - that he will come to walk in Your Grace. Use him to reach our brothers and sisters in the Mormon faith to be salt and light for you.Amen.

[j2mnorcal]

Andrew - I am on minute 8:40 and already your representation of Mormon doctorine regarding salvation is contradictory to the teachings of your prophets. Have you ever read Miracle of Forgiveness by Kimball?

[newbirth35]

Good to see your face!

[novaflarex]

lol youll have that.

BTW aaron is me novaflare from carm

[aaronshaf2006]

Did you mean "it's me"? Hi!

[novaflarex]

lol oops :\

[thenephite0305]

nuts, cant see the diagram i drew on the page =p. i shouldve brought a marking pen =p. oh well, its still somewhat visible by watching my hand movements