On Being a Skeptic--motives & manners (response to Veritas48's "On Being a Christian Apologist")

[garciaalvin3]

SKEPTICISM SUCKS!

[Esandero]

Veritas speaks of reaching out to people to "save" their souls from a certain future in his opinion.

His whole idea is to offer hope.He is not "against" something. He has a message of hope. If someone doesn't accept that its still a "saving" message.

All skeptics are confined to being "against" something. And one is free to be "skeptical!"

But you can't compare the two. like someone has built an engine an another thinks its poorly built but the "skeptic" has not built one of his own.

[ToddAllenGates]

> you can't compare the two.

Veritas asked theists on YouTube to question their motives, and then to question their manners / behavior—namely, does their approach help them achieve their goals?

My aim in responding was not so much to compare theists to skeptics, but only to take this as an opportunity to raise the same questions for YouTube's skeptics. What are our motives, and do our manners (or sometimes lack of manners!) help or hinder our goal?

[Esandero]

Well I shouldn't have comented on veritas since I didn't watch his video I suppose.

[Dudex58]

@ToddAllenGates

wow pretty Good I believe in God but a person like yourself could make me turn atheist. I don't know why the amazing atheists when obviously u have a more superior tung, and way with both sides. Please keep making vids. I like this nice format u are instilling.

[ToddAllenGates]

@Dudex58

> I like this nice format u are instilling.

Thank you!

> Please keep making vids.

I'm a bit preoccupied with other projects, so I probably won't be making any new videos for the next couple months ... if you're interested in watching older videos of mine, the central one is a video series called "Using the Socratic Method with Christian Proselytizers."

[andretaff]

"All skeptics are confined to being 'against' something."

Not true. Being skeptic is, above all things, a commitment to truth, even if it's uncomfortable. If we conclude that all that is is this universe and nothing more, that's what we'll try bringing to you.

I try to be as commited to truth as I can, learning both sides of the arguments and listening to everyone while trying to keep an open mind. (Maybe sadly,) Like many other skeptics, I don't find the theistic arguments compelling. Sorry.

[Esandero]

So you're saying virtue is you're motive ie truth. We need now to examine you're beliefs further to see if there is consistency correct?

Also one does not have to rid themselves of religion to practice virtue correct?

[andretaff]

"We need now to examine you're beliefs further to see if there is consistency correct?"

I try always to exam my 'beliefs'. I'd say 'positions', instead of beliefs.

"Also one does not have to rid themselves of religion to practice virtue correct? "

No, not at all. And one does not have to get himself into religion to act morally neither.

BTW, great video, Todd.

[Esandero]

This is incoherent.

[unassumption]

I started studying religion (not too long ago) to try to defend my agnosticism against seemingly far more intelligent theists and athiests. I also wanted to quell my moral confusion.

[ToddAllenGates]

> I started studying religion (not too long ago) to try to defend my agnosticism against seemingly far more intelligent theists and athiests.

I was somewhere in between an agnostic and a Deist until I read "The Blind Watchmaker," which pushed me into the atheist camp (which I define as believing that the existence of God is much more improbable than probable). It wasn't exactly the answer I was looking for, but now, life is much more coherent!

[unassumption]

Surprisingly, that book was what delivered the final blow to my agnosticism.

[SolMaster]

You are very articulate and calm in your presentation... it's very refreshing, to be honest. There's so many angry atheists and christians out there who argue just out of spite of each other, rarely employing actual techniques in their analysis but rather filling their videos with bias, abundant fallacies, and personal attacks.

Keep on making these great videos!

[ToddGates]

> You are very articulate and calm in your presentation... it's very refreshing, to be honest.

Honored and grateful to hear that—thanks!

[daddyleon]

Suberp!

I like the way you talk, it's (certainly with the music that I heard in FFreeThinks mirror... you should do that too! ;-P) soothing and friendly/iness.

More than just 'educating and name-calling', open for friendly talks instead of debates of animosity, that's what I hear.

[daddyleon]

lol, I meant: "Superb!" :$ / xD

[ToddAllenGates]

> More than just 'educating and name-calling', open for friendly talks instead of debates of animosity, that's what I hear.

Thanks! Die-hard fundamentalists still get offended by my videos—for the audacity to question God's Word—but I find that for more moderate theists, and especially "on the fence" theists, the non-confrontational approach is the most effective.

[daddyleon]

>Thanks!

No! ty. :P

>Die-hard fundamentalists still get offended by my videos

Some people get offended just by hearing other people say atheist (let alone: I'm an atheist). Mostly because of the attacks that were made against them, I think .And of course "for the audacity to question God's Word".

[RDJim]

What a great video. The tone and message makes me want to watch more of your stuff.... and I will.

[ToddAllenGates]

> What a great video.

Thanks!

> The tone and message makes me want to watch more of your stuff.... and I will.

It *looks* like I have a lot of videos (namely, 80), but really, I only have 20 or so long ones: most are just broken up into multiple series.

[Invaishir]

Wow, just fucking wow.

These are the words of a true person, so wonderfully spoken. Definitely subbed, and I'm even giving a shoutout to my audience about you.

Keep making videos.

[ToddAllenGates]

> wonderfully spoken. Definitely subbed, and I'm even giving a shoutout to my audience about you.

Thank you—much appreciated!

[SuperAtheistBrothers]

Great video, but what is that music... Sounded familiar, but I can't put my finger on it... But yes very nice video.

[ToddAllenGates]

> Great video

Thanks!

> but what is that music... Sounded familiar, but I can't put my finger on it...

This video doesn't have any music on it, but Ffreethinker's mirrored version does. He inserted two different background songs: I don't know the first one, but from 5:42 to 8:54 (on his video that is), it's my piano version of Korn's "Freak on a Leash." (That video is posted on my "ToddGates" channel, which I reserve for my piano & blues harp videos.)

[1140Cecile]

For the most part, I don't believe a debate, discussion, argument, etc. on matters such as the origin of the universe between a religious person and a rationalist can be won by either side. Rather, it is certain members of the audience to such debates who can be influenced one way or the other. If this premise is true, then either of the debators can be as insulting to the other as they wish, as the goal is not to win them over. In any case, I always find it best to let my opponent insult first.

[ToddAllenGates]

> I don't believe an argument [etc] . . . between a religious person and a rationalist can be won by either side

I agree—but I also would like to attract "on the fence" theists to my book and videos: particularly those who accept religion mainly because they were raised on it, but are suffering from cognitive dissonance as they try to reconcile their religious beliefs with real life. For that audience, I think the subtle approach can be effective.

[1140Cecile]

I think the subtle approach is best in almost all cases. If, however, the religionist, lacking a viable argument, resorts to insulting language or ad hominem attacks it can be quite useful to then unload the weight of evidence indicating the ludicrousity of their position. Some in the audience will unreasonably be swayed by the confidence of the "mocker" and if the regionist chooses this weapon then it is fair ball to unleash the armory of mockery available to the rationalist position.

[ToddAllenGates]

> if the religionist chooses this weapon then it is fair ball to unleash the armory of mockery available to the rationalist position.

As the good book (Ecclesiastes 3) says, "To every thing there is a season!"

(A time to break down, and a time to build up; ... a time to embrace, a time to refrain from embracing; ... [etc.])

[Domzdream]

You are so diplomatic. I could never be this fair. To me, religion is basically a dumbass's way of life, though shown the errors of their philosophy and morals. It amazes me how in control you can be, whereas myself, I cannot help but judge these silly childish minded people accordingly.

You know, 2 and 2 is 4. If you keep argueing that it's 3 after countless times of me proving to you that it's 4, then you're a dumass in my books.

I like your vids.

[ToddAllenGates]

> You know, 2 and 2 is 4. If you keep arguing that it's 3 after countless times ...

Yes, it does take a lot of patience!

> I like your vids.

Thanks!

[GalaxySmith18]

I'm a christian and I am a very open minding person. To me, I believe people should question about religious and their ways of life, but not in a disrespectful way though.

[Thanat0s67]

The problem is that religion is afforded a special kind of protection.

If I call someone's political stance "nonsense" then they won't be that offended and we could discuss pro's and con's of their political stance.

If I call your religion "nonsense" then I suspect you would be offended, and refuse to discuss your views.

[GalaxySmith18]

I never said you can't discuss with me. You're just assuming what would happen when in fact, it's not. I'm always willing to be open to other people when talking about religion...

[Thanat0s67]

I wasn't implying that you won't discuss religion, I was saying that religion is afforded a special protection

[GalaxySmith18]

Ohhhh okay. Sorry for getting the wrong idea here. Yeah, unfortinally.

[Veritas48]

A very interesting video my friend.

[ToddAllenGates]

> A very interesting video my friend.

Thanks!

[hilbert54]

A number of people have recommended that book to me. It seems I have little awareness of other peoples motivations. Perhaps you have inspired me to finally read it.

[ToddAllenGates]

> Perhaps you have inspired me to finally read it.

As I mentioned to someone else in the comments section, I first read "How to Win Friends and Influence People" as a teenager, and it had a big impact on my life. Certain section, I must confess in retrospect, are arguably a bit cornball, but it also contains much simple but timeless wisdom.

[hilbert54]

Yes sorry I seemed to have missed your point there, I didn't in fact and I agree with you. I was responding in general to the idea that Dawkins "aggressive" approach wasn't working.

Great video by the way.

[ToddAllenGates]

> I was responding in general to the idea that Dawkins "aggressive" approach wasn't working.

For his purposes, I agree that his approach *does* work.

> Great video by the way.

Thanks!

[hilbert54]

When I was a child Sundays were dead. No shops were open, except the pubs. Although this was partly cultural and actually a good thing for a lot of the working class, it was clearly of biblical in inspiration. As a child I found it laughable and scary that the thousands of adults around me went along with this. You simply were not allowed to criticise religious institutions.

[hilbert54]

I think Dawkins, apart from making a lot of money, was just trying to challenge the undeserved respect that Christianity still demands. He is addressing the masses that just go along with it, not the converted.

[ToddAllenGates]

> I think Dawkins ... was just trying to challenge the undeserved respect that Christianity still demands.

I actually agree with Dawkins as far as that goes. And this video acknowledges that there is such a variety of reasons for criticizing religion that there's no one "correct" way to go about it. The passages I read from "How to ... Influence People" are directed only to those skeptics who are interested in changing theists' minds.

[cowboycoco]

Another reason for outspoken skepticism is no doubt that we would like people to stop wasting time on meaningless religous activity and frivolous prayer and actually do some good. - A pair of hands at work can do more good than a thousand clasped in prayer.

[ToddAllenGates]

> we would like people to stop wasting time on meaningless religous activity

Well, I must confess to liking certain religious activities, namely, going to a nearby church to listen to their great gospel band. (I just sneak out once the service starts!)

[juggaloryan3]

Fantastic points! So very eloquent

[ToddAllenGates]

> very eloquent

Thanks juggaloryan3!

[mooxim]

I knew the rude aproach practiced by Dawkins and fans wasn't working but you just explained it a lot better than I ever could. Hopefully your advice will rub off on some people and we'll see a little more diplomacy and a little less childish mockery.

[ToddAllenGates]

>I knew the rude approach practiced by Dawkins and fans wasn't working but you just explained it a lot better than I ever could

I saw an interview recently with Christopher Hitchens where he said he *wanted* theists to hate him. Which I guess suits his purposes ... but clearly his purpose is not to win, as they say, "hearts and minds"!

[SelfTaughtPrimate]

Most impressive video, if I might say so myself. I will definitely try to get a hold of your book. Can you also send me details of the book you were quoting in the video? Sounds really good.

[ToddAllenGates]

"Most impressive video, if I might say so myself."

Thanks!

"I will definitely try to get a hold of your book."

Double thanks! (BTW, it's only sold online: amazon, etc.)

"Can you also send me details of the book you were quoting in the video?"

It's called 'How to Win Friends and Influence People,' by Dale Carnegie. I first read it as a teenager, and it had a big impact on my life.

[ToddAllenGates2]

> I really like the asteroid analogy.

Thanks ... I had second thoughts about comparing Christianity to "pending destruction"--but because "eternal torment in hell" is indeed a part of *most* sects of Christianity, I thought the analogy was fitting (and perhaps not even extreme enough, as destruction-by-asteroid is comparatively quick and painless compared to Christianity's version of "the end").

[ProfMTH]

Very nicely done, Todd. It's not easy to make present the complexities inherent in the art of persuasion in a simple, easy-to-understand manner, but you've managed to do so here. As one who teaches argumentation, I find that quite impressive.

[ProfMTH]

"It's not easy to make present the complexities...."

Strike 'make'. Sorry. I have no future in the typists' pool. ;-)

By the way, I meant to mention that one of the reasons I chose "ProfMTH's Thoughts On" for the opening of (most of) my videos was because I thought those words helped to send a non-hostile signal to viewers who might disagree, thus encouraging dialogue. I'm not sure I'm always so successful in the substance of my stuff here, but as you note, this is complicated business.

[ToddAllenGates]

1 of 2:

> Very nicely done, Todd. . .. As one who teaches argumentation, I find that quite impressive.

Thanks!

> one of the reasons I chose "ProfMTH's Thoughts On" for the opening of my videos was because I thought those words helped to send a non-hostile signal to viewers who might disagree, thus encouraging dialogue.

Yes, I noticed—it strikes me as a goodwill gesture that *should* help (your many wacky commentators notwithstanding)!

[ToddAllenGates]

2 of 2:

> I'm not sure I'm always so successful in the substance of my stuff here, but as you note, this is complicated business.

It seems to me that among the most complex subjects to tackle are creationism and Intelligent Design. Theists are so deeply attached to the notion that they were purposefully created by God that logic has little hope of penetrating that emotional force field. (This is one reason I leave these subjects to others!)

[Care4alot]

I like your non threatning and well informed way of talking

Looking forward to see more

Thanks :o)

[ToddAllenGates]

> Looking forward to seeing more

More on the way soon: thanks!