Jehovah's Witnesses: Jesus and the Trinity

[MrNorwayboy20]

I am that I am - I am the beginning and the end - I am alfa and omega, the beginning and the end. Who says that? Jesus said the first one, Jesus said the second one and Jesus my loving God said it to his disiples after the death, the last one.. He is God. God bless you! (Jesus bless you!)

[MrNorwayboy20]

What when Jesus says F.eks "Yes, MY child" or "No MY child" We are Gods children arent we?

[Kidplunk]

And the most famous accounts of near death experience reveals that Jesus and God are separate beings. Jesus on the cross: "MY GOD< MY GOD, WHY HAST THOU FORSAKEN ME!!" Oh, Jesus was just speaking to his other self?

[tonyschmoeredux]

Yes.  So we agree that the captivity was 70 yrs. You just add that to 537.

[tonyschmoeredux]

The WT didn't invent the 70 years.

[wight69star]

Jeremiah 25: 10-12 "and these nations will have to serve the king of babylon seventy years"

what does the bible say the 70 years were for?

[tonyschmoeredux]

That was the captivity. Thats how yo9u get to 607.

[wight69star]

you not reading the scripture "these nations" all the nations fell around that time. because you are uphold the watchtowers version you can't see what the scripture is saying.

[wight69star]

and you could say it was captivity of the nations to babylon as the jeremiah sciptures are saying. you see the watchtower apply's it to jerusalem, the bible applys it all the nations and that would include jerusalem

[wight69star]

Jeremiah 29 :10 on the NIV interlinear hebrew-english old testment says "year seventy FOR babylon" it was for 70 years for babylon rule over the nation.

[tonyschmoeredux]

If 607 is wrong, then it logically follows that 1914 would have to be wrong.

However 607 is correct.

[tonyschmoeredux]

the 537 date is not contested by anyone and all you do is add 70.

[wight69star]

by going that way you are fall in the organization hands and what they want you to believe. you got to go by the facts then try and apply the 70 years. it was 70 years of servitude, nations under the rule of babylon, this started under the rule of nebuchadnezzar around year 605.

one book that goes into details about these dates is the gentile times reconsidered. you need to find the facts first then consider where the other dates fit.

[wight69star]

but can't you see that by the rulers dates all backed by the watchtower it falls on 587. this the lie they are telling you. what I am saying that what ever proof one gives one tries to cover the organization on it. by proveing this date to yourself, then you have to question the organization on the others.

[tonyschmoeredux]

537 is an uncontested date though. There is no argument about 537.

JW simply accept the Biblical number of years (70) to be added to that.

[wight69star]

537-539 is right, then the watchtower tells you to apply their interruption of 70 years, so it can fit their end times dates and end up on the key date they want you to believe 1914. if they went by the facts they can not uphold that date, so they can't tell you that jesus came in 1914 and then chose them in 1919. then that would mean that they are not gods organization.

[tonyschmoeredux]

607 is not false. Some things about 1914 were mistaken, and others not. Ray Franz's book was designed to attack the WTS. By fixating on it you arent having a balanced view. Your mother problems aside. JWs have the purest version of Bible doctrine you are going to find of any religion, worts and all.

[wight69star]

607 not false you say?

nabonidus ruled 17y (it-2 p458)

labashi-marduks 9 months(w65 1/1 p29)

neriglissar 4y (w65 1/1 p29)

evil merodach 2y (w65 1/1 p29)

nebuchadnezzar 43y (dp chap 4, p50 par 9) 17+(9 months)+4+2+43 =66 539 + 66

=605 bce nebuchadnezzars rule start - 18 he went into jerusalem in his 18th year (it-2 p481)

=587

if date is wrong so is the next 1914

[tonyschmoeredux]

Russell was influenced by independent study of the Bible. Same with the other millenialist ideas you sited. That is what the free exercise of religion and independence from the authority of european christendom was about in those days, the GreatAwakening etc.

You have fallen for post hoc ergo proper hoc. SDA still believe in Jesus-Michael and the trinity. JW beliefs about Jesus-Michael and what he is, is incompatible with that. Your "info" is old news.

[wight69star]

From raymond franz book page 259, in a meeting with governing body members, Lyman Swingle said "but at least you know that as for 1914 is concerned Jehovah's witnesses got the whole thing lock, stock and barrel from the second adventists" so russell took some of the beliefs that he liked from the adventist like end times and michael the arch angel and mixed them his own ideas.

this should ring alarm bells!

what have russell, smith, white have in common?

They all started a CULT

[tonyschmoeredux]

Well there you go like I said centering you entire way of thought around anti JW-basher talking points. "Cult" is just a prejudicial term for anybody you don't like. What in fact one finds is that the JWs accepted beliefs based on how they stacked up with the Bible and not any personality. You may never get past your fixation which makes you indifferent the the broader history of these events. All these religious movements are a consequence of greater freedom to read and interpret theBible.

[wight69star]

Sorry I could not help myself on that one, the problem is all were started around the same time, all got a connection, all are the wrong in their interpretation of the bible. but point is that even Swingle a loyal and respected governing body member had the facts and pointed that it came from the adventist.

[tonyschmoeredux]

We only have Ray's word on that. You use Ray because he is a sourse for JW bashers. I choose to rely on a broader understanding of events. Even if SDA were the first to publish the idea naming Michael specifically, the idea of Jesus as an angel was ancient already. You'd know this if you valued history. There was also trniitarians who embrace this idea.

The only intelligent statement you have made on this subject is "all are wrong in their interpretation of the bible". You should argue that.

[tonyschmoeredux]

The reason you have not argued that is because you don't have a case. You only seek to bash JWs personally because you cannot logically refute their positions.

[wight69star]

no I don't argue because arguing with JW just does not get anywhere I know because I live with one, my mother is one, many on my family are ones, do I get through with on even one point NO sir, the facts are there if you want them, I said to you to read apocalypse delayed, it gives more info on russell and adventist more than I can get through using youtube, I said to what your own governing body said, I pointed you adventist video and a debates, what more can I say.

[wight69star]

also the fact I not good at writing letters

as you lot, you want to know why! because I followed crap watchtower advice on education in the 70's there was no point education as he end was going to come, we had forever to learn afterwards.

you keep saying about raymond as he is a JW basher, well I think you have never read the book, he came across humble and with love towards the witnesses and every thing he said was with proof and with proofs from other source's.

[wight69star]

also you say I can not logically refute there positions you defend them

false 607 date

false 1914 date

false 1919 date matt 24: 45-47 what food were they giving out at that time.

speaking in gods name, in all awakes before 1995 saying it's god's promise that the generation of 1914 with see the end.

Deut 18:20

false end time dates 1874, 1914, 1925, 1975 and more in between. Deut 18:20

these are just some that are built on ground of sand. one blow and it all comes down.

[blkBBW]

Just wondering... is it Jehovah witnesses or Seven day adventist that also believe Jesus is not only the son of God but an angel made into a man & the brother of satan???

[tonyschmoeredux]

The 7th Day Adventists believe Jesus is the second person of the trinity in the God. JW's believe Jesus is the divine son of God and that his father alone is almighty God. Also that Jesus was angel of God before being a man on earth.

Angels are refered to as sons of God, and sons of God who rebelled are Satan and the demons. It is in that sense that they would have been brothers.

[wight69star]

Jehovah's witnesses and seven day adventist believe that jesus is michael the arch angel, there's a video on youtube that has a talk buy a 7 day on it (michael the arch angel-a title of jesus christ-bingolly1-part 1) the JW took this belief and many others from the seven days in the late 1800's

[tonyschmoeredux]

This belief came from an independent study of the Bible. If you did your own reading you would find that JWs/CTRussell did not get their/ posiion on Michael from the SDA. Their beliefs on Michael as Jesus are different. TheSDA believe that Jesus-MIchael is the second person of the holy trinity, while Russell rejected the trinity and held that Jesus-Michael is a lesser being and that only the Father is almighty God.

[wight69star]

Ellen G White preached the non deity of christ from the start, this may have changed in later years but the fact is that russell was influenced by this movement, does barber ring a bell. he took this and other beliefs like jesus coming at 1874 and end times 1914 and started his bible study. I think you should read Apocalype delayed which has a indepth look at what influenced ressell in his early years.

youtube video 1-3 seventh day adventist vs christianity debate proves the deity belief.

[bajojohn]

Google Arianism. While the JWs are not directly linked to them, this is an old debate arguably settled by the early church. You may also be thinking about Mormons. They also do not believe in the divinity of Christ and teach that Jesus and Satan are brothers.