I say this as a Devil's Advocate, given that I no longer believe in Divine Command Morality. If there is a God, and that God does command you to sacrifice your child, how could you justify disobeying? Isn't He the God who created you, your child, and morality itself? Doesn't that mean that He gets to make the rules? And wouldn't the same apply if He issued a command not to use medicine? How can you disobey God when God is the one who decides what is good and what is bad?
To clarify, my point is that Divine Command Morality is the only logical approach to morality in light of the existence of God, assuming that e exists. And most truly religious people, certainly the ones who deprive their children of medical care, do believe in DCM. From their perspective, they really didn't do anything wrong. And you can't convince them otherwise, without either convincing them that God permits the use of medicine, or that God does not exist and is not the source of morality.
Well what if this God actually is a giant asshole with omnipotence? Like a dictator on steroids, he demands you be his bitch for life, and he'll think about not screwing with you for eternity. If that's the case, we could not worship on principle, but many might consider paying the protection fee worth it just to avoid the consequences.
wouldnt getting a transplant of any kind or having any life saving measures performed on a believer be against gods will? if the person dies they say it is gods will.......but what if man brought them back to life? that wouldnt be a miracle if a trained medical professional did their job....
doctors and medicines are tangible proof that prayer and gods are fake.
@C0nc0rdance It's not my Interpretation over another person or group. Besides the 10 commandments regarding man, the Bible is not meant to give an objective moral answer to everything. Like the Bible says, 2 ppl can be in disagreement but if 1 does what they know isn't right, they sin. So let the JW do as they please. Christians are Christians bc they in Jesus Christ as their savior. Period.
I think you confused the original point. The JW ARE doing what they please, and children are dying as a result. They DO believe in Jesus as their savior, and they follow the Bible, as they see it. That prevents them from receiving life-saving transfusions and insulin.
Are you okay with that? How can we persuade religious people who put the safety of their children in jeopardy that God wants them to disregard the scriptural commandments they were taught?
@C0nc0rdance No, I understand your point on JW & their children unnecessarily dying. Several groups claim Christianity and have a completely radical interpretation of the Bible that I strongly disagree w/. From my understanding, JW don't believe in the divinity of Jesus & if this is true, they would not be Christians.
Here is what I'm not ok w/: Unlike what you siad, there is no scriptural command for objective morals as far as medical care. If there were, they would be right.
@ladyEulaelie I'd love to tell you I was also a JW. However I do not think you have ever been in a situation where death is right around the corner. Here is my point though, how exactly may a creator love you if he plans for you to die even when there is a 100% possibility to save you. Now here is to your point. There may be no scriptural command but, may you please explain this to me, why does every human feel sorrow when a person or especially his child dies?
@Inventor672 We all have personal experiences w/ death in some way. I actually have been in a situation where death was right around the corner for a very close love one. Your question to me is like asking if God loves creation so much why does he allow fish to get wet all the time. This world is not ideal & to think it should be if God exists is incredibly naive. You are looking for a epistemology type answer so here goes: We all die & feel sorrowful of death b/c of sin.
@ladyEulaelie Wouldn't it feel right to let a JW die when he could ost certainly be saved. This is with what I disagree. I'd also like to ask why you feel an obligation to do this? Is it because you are 100% sure this is right? Also, why does blood have such meaning in your opinion? As far as it goes, I have never seen a JW caring about what happens to the body besides it being buried and getting over it. Is it that JW not mind what happened to him?
You & I may disagree w/ other ppl's religions, but to this extent, we have to allow ppl individual freedom to themselves out of freedom of religion. We can't force CPR, blood transfusions or cancer radiation therapy if ppl refuse it.
Why do I feel obligation to do what?
Personally, I believe there is life in blood. Everyone has an opinion about everything. To that, I have to ask, why do you personally care? You should ask the remainder of your questions to a JW.
The content of the video wasn't about adults making decisions for themselves... it was about the parents of children making choices for them that led to their death. Religious freedom comes into conflict with the right of a person to life-saving medical care. Why is religious freedom superior to a right not to die through neglect?
Yes I understand that. Your child is an extension of yourself. You have rights over them. Like I stated in another comment, until you have the right to tell someone that they can not abort their kid, you certainly don't have the right to tell them they can't refuse medical treatment. I don't at all agree w/ what JW do in this matter but Its their way of life & I don't see any way I or anyone else can reasonably force a different belief to take place if circumstances permit.
Do you see the implications of saying that a child has no rights independent of the parent? What about in the case of sexual or physical abuse? Exploitation? Endangerment? Neglect? The parent has a right to do what they want?
Are you prepared to follow your argument all the way through?
A child has some rights independent of the parent, but exactly what are those rights, isn't always clear cut. Just like with abortion, I personally think every life has the right to live, but I can't force women to not abort their unborn children. I think abortion is murder...let alone abuse, endangerment and neglect. Their religion is apart of their lifestyle. Every parent has the right to refuse consent for medication or medical treatment of their child.
@ladyEulaelie So what are your views on spontaneous abortion? If, as you think, abortion is murder, then who "murdered" the baby when a spontaneous abortion occurs? On a related note, if abortions are murder, would that make ectopic pregnancies a cruel joke?
Spontaneous abortion? What are you views on SIDS? What is your view on people dying in their sleep. Death happens, even in the womb. That is just life. If you died in the womb or died in your sleep or nobody murdered you.
@ladyEulaelie And no, you can't default rights of a child's access to proper medical treatment simply because two adults are their parents - that's ignorant to the highest degree, and you're arguing from authority. If I had a child who required life-saving, or any other medical attention, I would NOT deny them that simply because I have some religious opinion to uphold. That's just self-serving and utterly callous.
I absolutely agree, but it's not my child. Everyone has different values and in my personally opinion, I don't think I should cross that line, not when those type of reasons are given.
How about parents who refuse their children life altering drugs? In some instances, isn't that worst than life saving drugs? It's like the child is buried alive instead of being dead.They have parental consent forms, like in this case, for a reason. Death occurs in every culture & will happen to everyone. We're various cultures in need of living in harmony w/ ea. other who all deal w/ death differently. I realize this & if that's self-serving, so be it.
In other words...If a parent who is competent to make medical decisions for their kid genuinely feels compelled to deny their child to receive certain medical treatment for personal, strong reasons, cultural or religious religious, I personally don't see their decision as going against an objective moral value. I think that is where I'm drawing the line as far as dipping into other people's business...is it a violation of an objective moral value.
@C0nc0rdance But that doesn't mean I agree that a parent should refuse their child medical treatment like blood transfusions that can be life saving. Simply, my argument is that people should be allowed that freedom of operation to refuse medical treatment especially in the mist of the laws we have regarding the life of their unborn child. It's either got to be one way or another. I can't say nothing to those ppl. I think we have to allow ppl that freedom for their born children.
@ladyEulaelie If it were like you said I would be satisfied. But if those are your beliefs, than thats okay by me. I was just curious either way. However I was a JW so I know what you mean. Still I find this to be an opinion of an adult and not a child who has a long life still ahead of them. However do not respond to this comment any more as I do not want to hear any more "reasons" for this. Either way JW's shunned me out of being a JW for this and I will never forgive them and their beliefs.
Sorry, I also agree with you in some sense about the matter, but It's someone else child. Until you have the right to tell them to abort their child and give them a chance to live or what not, you are a long ways from forcing this type of belief on someone else or their child. I don't agree with JW on this issue but I certainly don't think my opinion should matter to them. It's their way of life and I'm over it.
You were done wrong by ppl who once shared your beliefs but be revitalized in the truth; don't forsake what you know only to let bitter Christians be a stubbling block to you make you bitter too. My family & I have been wronged & were done wrong for yrs & yrs, going back before my birth up until I was 16 but I will forever be uplifted & encouraged in the truth. There is only God...yes the 1 Atheist are obsessed w/ & can't live w/o. He gives me the strength to do that. Run to God.
@C0nc0rdance I know the difference bc I take into account the context of an entire chapter and along with other verses. Patients don't receive spilled blood...they receive insuline, a hormone isolated from blood. The meat was also isolated from the blood...that was acceptable. I don't see why it can not also be with insulin
There are no theists in hospitals? Maybe 5% of religious people don't use medicine or hospitals. Aren't a large portion of well-trusted doctors, outspoken theists? There's nothing new in this video. People do cruel, stupid, horrible things in the name of religion. They've been malconditioned. It's sad. It's been happening for thousands of years now.
The title is in the same vein as "There are no atheists in foxholes". In a hospital, we all put faith in human technology, rather than relying on divine healing a la Jesus. Which is perfectly rational, reasonable behavior. It's the people who refuse to compromise that little bit that are causing so much harm.
@C0nc0rdan I hear ya. And the faith or "belief" in the medical procedure has a huge role in whether the person is going to get well or not. The placebo and nocebo effects are amazing. This is how miracle, divine or "faith" healings work as well. The simple act of belief is what healed the problem. Faith and doubt are interesting concepts.
I'd never trust the life of my love one to a minister over a MD. I also wouldn't trust the repair of a missing button on a blouse to a minister over a seamstress. This does not speak for non belief in power of prayer. It's not man I trust in, but God. If I prayed for God to help me and he sent a man in boat to rescue me is that not answered prayer?
Works w/o faith is useless & prayer w/ faith but w/o works is as equally useless.
You want God to snap his fingers, but he works through ppl.
Ok. Now how are you going to address that argument to a faith healing believer? A Jehovah's Witness?
They put their faith "completely in God". They trust His will. They live by His scripture. How do you persuade them to take insulin, or treat a fever with antibiotics? This is not an academic exercise.
I don't know what Jehova's Witnesses believe. I'm going off the Bible and no where in the Bible are people condemn ppl to take insulin or to follow modern medicine. One of the 12 apostles was like a modern medicine physician in his day.
I believe in going to doctors, but what is wrong with faith healing? I put my faith completely in God and Iive by the scripture, but that is not the same as saying that I don't go to doctors or I would never send my dying love one to a MD.
@C0nc0rdance Insulin is a hormone that regulates glucose in the blood. You find it in the blood, but it is not blood itself. Insulin can be isolated and extracted as a separate thing away from blood.
Even then, nobody says, eats or ingests insulin...insulin is usually rejected. Those verses are about eating/drinking blood.
*Even then, nobody says, "I'm going to eat insulin for breakfast." Insulin can be received through an insulin pump straight to the stomach, but it is almost always injected. These verses are about people commonly drinking or eating blood.
So how do you know that the Bible's commandment to discard blood once it leaves the body doesn't apply to medical applications? If spilled blood is unclean by definition, how can injecting it be okay?
You understand that I reject these teachings as well, but your interpretation has no privilege. Therein lies the problem. Why do Jehovah's Witnesses not realize how in error they are, since yours is the one true interpretation?
I also find it ironic that the father of bacteriology, (some ppl refer to him as the father of modern medicine), Luis Pasture, came about the germ theory, leading the sterilization of surgical instruments and surgical rooms, saving thousands of lives...all inspired from reading the book of Leviticus.
@sngcoach Your reason for making the video should be all the more reason to pay attention if someone rejects it off-hand. It's called "there are no theists in hospital waiting rooms," which is holding Christianity accountable for its radical fringe (and we know it's not theism in general, because that's the only religion covered). You called logical fallacy on someone pointing that out. If they meant that it's not in line with Christian principals, Jesus is love, etc., that's another thing.
@C0nc0rdance of course, have you heard of the "people don't lie to themselves and others" fallacy?
on a completely unrelated note, dawkins must be a christian because like jehovah's witnesses he is a human being with ideas and even though those ideas are contrary to what the bible actually says a christian must believe in order to be a christian he must be a christian because he has things on common with christians (even though those aren't things that actually make a christian a christian).
@C0nc0rdance The No True Scotsman fallacy relies on changing a universal's scope each time an example doesn't support a claim about the universal. That's actually what you're doing when you ignore the fact that only these few sects of Christianity could be used as the definition of Christianity in general if your argument is to be used as a universal claim about Christianity. Furthermore, you're going from particular to universal by using an argument only valid for these sects against the whole.
@anonazero Over 2 billion members across the world, spanning over 38000 sects and denominations, all claiming to be of the "true Church", yet none can agree on what a "true Christian" is.
im a christian but go to doctors god gave them their knowledge to do their job and their job is to treat us for whatever illness we have thats why it was given to them
@duffyc64 but the bible has lots of medical treatmints in it deliverd by god... have you never read it? docters use sientific descovires made by man, so whos hands do you put your life into when you go to the docters god or man?
That is just about the stupidest video I have seen. Very few Christians deny medical care to people but, for the sake of argument 194 children compared to the thousands of children who die each year due to medical malpractice and mis-diagnosis of the medical system, not to mention those who die because they have no access to medicine. Moral Authority of the Bible has no correlation to medical treatment just look at the # of hospitals which were started or currently operated by Christians.
What makes this so tragic is that these children died while their parents actively prevented simple procedures from saving their lives because of their beliefs. This was the intentional act of a parent torn between faith and their love for their child.
I hope you see the special tragedy here. It's not about numbers, although there are many more kids at risk than you may think, and most religious medical neglect goes unreported. It's about caring for these lost lives.
@C0nc0rdance I would agre 100% Any child who dies from any preventable illness is a tregedy. But the purpose of your video, IMO, is to suggest that the actions of those people invalidate the Moral authority of the Bible. This starts right from the title. It is not a biblical principle to deny health care to people, quite the opposite. Christian groups are actively bringing health care to the world. Bad parents come from all backgrounds.
There are probably even more examples of people who were brought to doctors and suffered or died because of it. But we're not able to number these because we don't know what 'could' have happened otherwise, but it's probably in the billions. George Washington?
In fact, i have a few examples within my own family. I know a woman who was being treated for diabetes and after going to a doctor was later diagnosed with severe brain damage. The doctors ruined her.
Not to mention that many of the illnesses that exist now, did not exist in the past, nor are they as common in other counties.
Atheists today are really saying is let the scientists cure you illnesses since they were the ones who caused many of them in the first place. You know that this is exactly how modern medicine works don't you? You take one pill to combat the illness and another for the side effects, and to no end. Spend your whole life on a diet of pills then make your whiny video.
Thirdly, just to drive my point home. The woman i mentioned was a university teacher who came over from the Philippines a healthy smart beautiful woman, when she got to America she turned into a fat retarded slob. What caused this? A change of attitude?...
By the way, it has nothing to do with the hospitals. It is the pharmaceutical companies that produce all these chemicals that ruin people who have not 'evolved' to them. You and i are healthy because we have adapted to this chemical plant.
Hospitals didn't begin with religion, they began with someone understanding an illness or injury and knowing how to treat it. Hospitals began with science.
@Davin404 Funny, Scientologists would probably be Athiest as they don't really believe in God (IMO it is a business) and the JW are not Christian (they don't worship Christ) I never said they begin with religion I said that most hospitals were STARTED by Christian orders (that is why they carry the names ST. ...) Also, historically, Christians have been providing medical care for the pop. since it's inception, Luke was a Doctor.. Christians stayed behind and took care of Plague victims.
@Jonathan2342 The plague is an awful example. Look up Plague Doctors. They were typically religious, and believed in so many useless treatments. Begin and start are synonymous, by the way. The issue you're bringing up is funding. Fine, some hospitals were funded by religion. That doesn't mean religion has any place in a hospital. If it wasn't for medical science, we'd still be dealing people in bird masks and black coats.
@Davin404 And you just proved my point, this vid attempts to build a correlation between the denial of medical care to children and religion, clearly a false correlation, by your admission. We can discuss the impact of reliigion on hospital care if you want (separate discussion) but it is clear that religion and Christians in particular, have been involved in medicine for over 2000 years. look up the history and you will see that many of the breakthroughs were done by Christians.
@Jonathan2342 I haven't proven anything. There is a correlation between religion and denying medical care to children. The only thing that's been proven is that not ALL religions deny children of medical attention. Whether or not you choose to accept the truth is not my problem, but the correlation is there. Breakthroughs from Christians are a moot point. Christianity didn't discover penicillin, nor did it have anything to do with the discovery.
@Davin404 Not liking something doesn't make it true. There is no correlation between Christians (he uses the bible) and denying medical care. To prove such a point you need more than 165 children for the millions of Christians in North America. You would also need to show that.
A) Christians are not involved in medical care of people
B) Christians have historically not used or supported medicine
C) The MAJORITY of Christians deny medical care to their children.
@Jonathan2342 I'm afraid you fail, bud. The video in itself isn't to prove that Christians deny health care, it's to show a correlation between religion and the denial of health care. Whether you like it or not, it's there. The title of the video is, "There are no theists in hospital waiting rooms," is true. The bible makes claims that faith alone will heal the sick, yet Christians still rely on medical science. Christianity has retarded progress, regardless of any other arguments.
@Jonathan2342 And to argue your first little point... If Cold Hard facts are your reason for not liking something, then it is completely true.
Unlike Christianity. Just a reminder: Liking something doesn't make it true, no matter how popular the idea is. Remember that idiot jock from highschool that everyone thought was popular? The guy was a douche. Popular opinion didn't change that.
@Davin404 As stating before, you need FACTS, you have yet to provide any. Saying you have facts is different than actually having them. How about providing them. Show me this correlation, show me that christians deny health care to their children, show me that they are not involved in providing medical care to the world. You have yet to provide anything!!
@Jonathan2342 You're an idiot. The argument isn't directed at Christians in general. You keep saying it is, but it's not.
You still want an example? Fine. AIDS. AIDS runs rampant through the world, and the Pope says condoms are immoral. They've been proven time and time again to prevent the spread of AIDS, and the Pope denies the people of Africa the use of them. Children, who have no choice, are born with AIDS because of this.
@Davin404 Allright, lets use that, the Pope promotes Abstinance, a much safer way to avoid the transfer of Aids than Condoms (the HIV virus can penetrate some types of condoms, they can break etc.) Also, I personally know that the Church is involved in the care and feeding of those kids who are orphaned by AIDs. Sorry dude, name calling doesn't change reality.
@Jonathan2342 Neither does denying reality. The Pope can claim abstinence is the best prevention, but he is doing a terrible job at it. Instead of taking the higher path and saying, "If I can't stop you, at least be safe," he says, "If I can't stop you, we will have to watch you die."
As for the church taking care of orphans? And? The state does that just fine. The church is merely cleaning it's own mess. Further, they do nothing for children WITH AIDS. Science is trying to clean that mess.
@Davin404 The only 100% way of preventing the spread of AIDs is abstinance, that is the high path. Plus condoms are not medical care. Maybe they should give condoms to Sudanese Rebels as well so they can wrap their jimmy before they rape. The state cares for orphans fine ???? that is the stupidest thing you have said yet, go to Africa / Southeast Asia / South America and say that. Often, families send their children to the Christian Orphanages because the care is better than they can provide.
@Jonathan2342 Whether or not you like it, people in Africa are going to have sex. Because the pope can't stop them, he condemns them to an life with AIDS. That is not now, nor will it ever be the high road.
You fucking people say Atheists are the ones without morals. You make me sick.
@Davin404 What they are going to do anyway is not the point, the fact still remains that the safest way to prevent transmission of AIDS is abstinance and that, rightly should be taught, not rolling the dice with a condom. There is no morality to say, screw away and hope the rubber doesn't bust, I would suggest that the "they will do it anyway" position is the immoral one. Also, I don't see Athiests going down to Africa and taking care of those people, but that is a different discussion.
@Jonathan2342 It's not rolling the dice. Condoms have been proven to work. By your awful logic, we shouldn't be teaching abstinence because people can get AIDS other ways. You will never be able to stop people from having sex. They are always going to have sex.
Condoms are not "rolling the dice." They work more than 99% of the time, this is FACT.
And Atheists DO go and help these people. Atheists the world over are helping people. We're just not attributing it to imaginary friends. Fuck off.
@Davin404 And by your logic, we should be sending condoms home with playschool students because there would always be those people who molest kids. We don't because what people do is irrevelant to what is best. Condoms are 85% effective when used properly and when they don't break or fall off or are misapplied, I will go with the 100% of abstinance, especially when dealing with something like STD's.
@Jonathan2342 Sex isn't illegal anywhere in the world. No one will ever make sex illegal. Raping children is illegal. Don't ask Christianity, though, they'll only quiet the children and move the perpetrators. Condoms work more than 85% of the time. They can break, yeah. So you grab a new fucking condom. The only way you can "misapply" a condom is if you're not sticking it on your fucking dick. It's not rocket science.
I agree with you. You shouldn't have sex. Your seed shouldn't go on.
@Davin404 Hey it's your logic, they will do it anyway is the standard we should use, not legality. Thats why people like you siggest giving needles to drug addicts (Illegal activity) so legality doesn't seem to metter. 85% is the effectiveness rate of a condom to guard against AIDs, through google. 99% is the effectiveness rate for pregnancy. Simple FACTS. AIDs rates have increased in Africa since people have shipped condoms over there for them. do some research
@Jonathan2342 Fine, lets apply your logic to the world. To begin, we should stop children from riding bikes. Helmets aren't 100%. We shouldn't allow cars because seat belts aren't 100%. We shouldn't have planes, because all of their safety measures aren't 100%. Do you see how stupid this is?
There's nothing illegal about consensual sex. We should hand out fresh needles to these people. Why? I don't want them to DIE. That's the difference between the two of us. I have empathy and you don't.
@Davin404 It is about the most effective means available, I would rather see a person not get AIDs or be released from addiction than condoning their actions, that is empathy. Your methods have actually been shown to increase disease. Education and Treatment has been shown much more effective. The issue has never been about what is legal, it is addressing your notion that the pope is responsible for AIDS deaths because he teaches abstinance and not throwing condoms at people.
@Jonathan2342 Your stats are both biased. Science doesn't allow for bias, and neither will I. Science doesn't set out to disprove religion, it never has. It only sets out to find what is real and true. Both of your articles are based in religion, therefore cannot be neutral in the argument.
I wouldn't present an article that says, "Ha ha, God does not exist," and I'd hope you'd have the same respect to present one that doesn't say, "God says it, so it must be true."
@Davin404 They are bias because they don't agree with you? If you don't like the numbers, provide alternatives! It is such an easy way to try to discredit somebody to say they are bias because it doesn't require any real information. Am I bias, OF COURSE!! and so are you, and so is every scientist out there, to say they are not is absolutely ignorant. It doesn't mean that the stats are not valid. If you don't like them, then do some brainwork and try to disprove them.
@Jonathan2342 They're biased because they have a personal, emotional stake in religion. Just like you do. They have a reason to lie. If you can't see the bias in your argument, then you've already lost. I'm not saying I am not biased, I'm saying that the evidence can't be. You're providing biased evidence.
If I provided results from, say, the Trojan Condom company, would you accept it? They'd support my side, but they're biased. They want to sell condoms. Your evidence wants to sell God.
@Jonathan2342 But hey, if you really want to be an idiot, look up the CDC. They'll tell you how good condoms are. I mean, they are only controlling and preventing diseases. I'm sure their bias is acceptable, since they don't want people to get sick.
@Davin404 Once again you have yet to offer anything of value up. You did not like the stats offered but you have yet to come up with anything other than unsubstantiated rhetoric. Here is a quote from the CDC
It should be noted that condom use cannot provide absolute protection against HIV. The surest way to avoid transmission of HIV is to abstain from sexual intercourse or to be in a long-term mutually monogamous relationship with a partner who has been tested and you know is uninfected.
@Jonathan2342 Okay, your point? It doesn't have to be 100%. The point is that it works. It works better than your idiotic pop says it does. If the condom isn't defective, it will be 100%. HIV particles are too large to move there the nuclei of the molecules in the condom.
Further, you are not going to stop people from having sex. It's going to happen whether you like it or not. The best course of action is the use the BEST form of protection against the disease.
@Davin404 And even by the CDC, the BEST course of action is Abstinance. If you can PROVE 100% protection from HIV/AIDS then you are even better than the CDC.
The point has always been the morality of teaching abstinance as opposed to condom use in the prevention of AIDS transmission. I have shown over and over again with facts that there is no responsibility of the Vatican for 3rd world AIDs as they teach the best way to avoid transmission. I'm through arguing with you, have a nice life!
@Jonathan2342 There IS responsibility, you cad. They are not saying, "Use condoms if you like, but abstinence is better." They're saying, "Don't use condoms at all," then denying these people the use of condoms.
Get a fucking life and stop living vicariously through a crusty old man who knows NOTHING about the world.
@Davin404 I'm not Catholic, dumbass, but what he says is that sex only should be in marriage between two adults. It was your example. The CDC (your example) says the same thing as the Pope, that Abstinance is the safest method of protection against STD's. You have yet to come up with anything sensical to show accountability but, even so, accountability would only happen if condoms were more effective than abstinence. read the stats, your position is nonsense.
@Jonathan2342 The Pope doesn't say it's the best way, he says it's the only way. He denies that condoms work at all. Further, nothing about Christianity says you can't have sex if you're not an adult. It says you can't have sex if you're not married. It says you shouldn't waste your seed, which is why the Pope is against condoms in the first place.
You're arguing from religion, which means you lost at the beginning. Religion knows nothing of evidence, and you're brainwashed.
@Davin404 If I lost and am brainwashed, you should have been able to handle this discussion easily but you have yet to come up with anything to prove your position, that the Pope is responsible for the AIDS epidemic by not condoning condom use. There are Athiest Abstinance groups as well. If you want your kid to screw everything in sight, all the power to you. Most people don't though because they know the risks. I'm through entertaining your ignorance, maybe when you have kids youll know.
@Jonathan2342 I already have. Several times. You haven't accepted it because you're brainwashed. If the condom is not defective, it works 100% of the time. As I've already stated, HIV cannot physically penetrate latex. I have also stated that the Pope is not just saying condoms are ineffective, he is preventing access to them. That makes him, personally, responsible.
Further, I am not saying abstinence is wrong, I'm saying good luck forcing it. The Church fails, and then condemns people to AIDS
World Health Organization Vol 82 No 6 Dated June, 2004 First, consistent condom use among heterosexual couples in which one partner was infected with HIV reduced the risk of HIV transmission from men to women and vice versa... They estimated that compared with no condom use, consistent condom use resulted in an overall 87% reduction in risk of HIV transmission, wit...ranging from 60% to 96%. In an update of this analysis, ...a revised estimate of an 80% reduction in risk
@Jonathan2342 You still haven't addressed the main issue, you've just been dodging it over and over. Why does the Pope prevent people from access to condoms? Why does he sow distrust in condom use? Why does he sow distrust in masturbation, for that matter? Masturbation has been shown to lower stress, prevent over stimulation, aid in proper cardio health, etc. Even if I were to accept your "proof," again, helmets for bike riding aren't 100%. Why don't we get rid of them?
@Jonathan2342 Chemotherapy isn't 100%, and is very dangerous. Organ transplants aren't 100%, and when they fail they almost always mean death of the patient. Hell, even science can't be 100% sure of anything. Are you saying that we should toss out and deny anything that isn't 100%? That's absurd. When you eat, are you 100% sure you won't choke and die? Your obsession with 100% is stupid. Get it out of your head. A treatment is a treatment, and as long as it works at all, that's enough to keep.
@Jonathan2342 Seems to me that you can't accept your own personal faith which cheers you up in this big bad world causes harm like this. Irrational thinking and beliefs are dangerous (remember 9/11?) The better understand of reality a person has and the more informed they are then the smarter choices they will make in life.
@rex786 no, I don't agree with the statement as it is completely unfounded. There is a difference between people using religion as a means of control and an assertion that religion causes suffering in the world. To say that theism denies health care as this video suggests is to ignore thousands of years of history showing the contrary. Health care and spirituality has been linked since the stone age. Even now, there is a large # of theists in the med. system. Reality is not subjective
@Jonathan2342 People do terrible things in the name of gods, fact. I don't think the video is suggesting theism = no medicine ever. Just that some people do deny their children healthcare for no good reason and as a result the children suffer and sometimes die. Which is a shame and is the result of irrational beliefs from the parent, fact. These things are happening, no history changes that and theists being doctors does not change that. Reality isnt subjective but its interpreted differently.
@rex786 People do terrible things period, God has little to do with it Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot Etc killed more people than all of Christian History. I acknowledge, as practically all Christians (or theists) do that anybody denying medical care on religious grounds is probably not acting in the best interest of their child or acting on a correct interpretation of their faith. When you say "No Theists in Hospital Waiting Room" the implication is pretty clear.
@Jonathan2342 lol i think you are taking that title too seriously. I doubt the maker of the vid things there are literally no theists in any hospitals. People do terrible things and god has nothing to do with it because he is made up. But people are motivated to do terrible things because they think its what their god wants and religion can be used as a tool to brainwash people into blowing themselves up or flying planes into buildings. Which is why videos like this need to be made.
@rex786 I guess truth is a secondary objective then? People don't need god to do terrible things, the worst atrocities of the 20th century came from athiests! I guess I could say that faith in God actually minimizes our perpensity to do evil. Athiests did not invent genocide, they just perfected it. And regarding medicine, as I stated before scientologist would be considered athiest as they believe in the ghosts of dead aliens possessing our bodies, not in God.
@Jonathan2342 Nobody will do bad things for the SAKE of atheism, why on earth would you? atheism is just a lack of belief in gods. The religious socities and governments in the world are the third world countries generally, coincidence? 9/11....religion made them do it. Ireland...catholics vs protestants, India/Pakistan....muslims vs hindus, holocaust....so many soldiers schooled and trained to hate jews and blame them for jesus. Nigeria...parents killing babies due to "demon possesing"
@Jonathan2342 Afghanistan...blowing up girls schools cos islam says women should stay at home. America....blowing up abortion clinics, genitial mutilation all over the world, uganda gay people being sentenced to death cos of religious text and belief. Hitler was a roman catholic; even if he was athiest all his soldiers werent. And Stalin was an athiest but didnt kill people in the name of atheism lol. People might do a bad thing cos they think god wants them to, if you deny this youre insane
@rex786 I did not even brig up Hitler because it is the only genocidal maniac that you try to pin on Christianity, even though the evidence regarding him and his top officers being Athiest / Satanists is overwhelming. I will never condone or defend islam. Christian fundamentalists are a very small group that is widely condemmed by every denomination. But still numbers don't lie. Mao 43.7 M, Stalin 23 M, Pol Pot 1.7M, Kim il Sun 1.6M - # killed by Pro-life fanatics? maybe a couple dozen?
@Jonathan2342 Lol my point is nobody will ever do anything wrong because they are athiests. There are bad people who happen to be athiests but there is no logical pathway leading from atheism to doing terrible things. Very small group? Does not matter if its a small group; its still wrong and its still because of the religion that they are doing those things. If you read your bible from cover to cover we wouldnt need to have this convo cos that will turn you into an athiest.
@rex786 I have read the bible numerous times from cover to cover and that is one reason why I believe. I actually research and seek answers when there is something I don't understand, I don't dismiss everything. Do you not see the double standard you impose? religious fanaticism = Religion's Fault where Athiest Murders & Genocide does not come from their beliefs. You cannot have it both ways. Either people do bad shit on their own or it is from the worldview they hold.
@Jonathan2342 The point is Atheism is not a belief system. I am not imposing a double standard; its just a known fact that people go to war over religion. Never ever has anybody gone to war FOR atheism, Stalin was a vegetarian does that mean he went to war because he was a vegetarian? NO. Cant you just understand that atheism is not a belief system and there is no reason what so ever why anybody would kill just for the sake of lacking belief in something theres no good reason to believe.
@rex786 Stalin and Mao did go to war to perpetuate an Athiest belief system. The communist system is an Athiest system and imposed athiest ideals on those groups they conquered. Conquering in the name of athiesm. Athiesm is a belief system whether you like it or not and it persecutes better than any religion. It believes that God doesn't exist, it believes that there is a naturalist explaination for everything, Regarding Stalin, he did not force people to become Veg. hi did force athiesm.
@Jonathan2342 All I can do at this stage is ask you to read what atheism actually means (google it). I'm an athiest and i strongly disagree with communism; watch the athiest experience on youtube and see what the hosts say about their views. Just because someone is rejecting claims about gods existence does not mean they are offering up a theory of their own. Theism is the positive belief in god so (A)theism is simply lacking such belief. This is my last word on this, nothing more i can say.
@rex786 And, As a Christian, I disagree with people who deny their children medical care. That is not the point. You blame the religion for actions of a few people then try to hide behind a definition. Mussolini was Fascist and Russia & China are more socialist but still promote state athiesm. It is a worldview and can even be called a religion as there is an organizational structure. " I don't know" is the lack of belief where "there is no God" is a statement of belief.
@Jonathan2342 I don't know is agnosticism and its a statement that concerns knowledge not belief. I'm an athiest and I will never say "there is no god" or "there are no gods" because none of us can be 100% sure. Not even Richard Dawkins has ever said that; he puts himself as a 6 on a scale of 1 to 7 (1 being 100% sure there is a god and 7 being 100% there is not). Theres a video called "lack of belief in gods" by qualiasoup. I think you should watch it. Cant hurt to hear a point of view can it?
@Jonathan2342 The problem here is that children die of pure neglect. Children that would have EASILY lived if the parents had sought medical help. EASILY treatable conditions and such.
This is not a matter of morality, but of neglect because of religious indoctrination.
@Sanquinity As stated before one example (Scientology) would be considered athiest as they don't believew in God so I guess Athiest indoctrination causes those people to die then. I am not defending the actions of some bad parents who do not bother to educate themself in their religion but the premis that religion caused those deaths, the clear allegation of the video. It would be like blaming all Athiests for what scientologists do
@Jonathan2342 The children in this vid specifically died because the parents chose religion over medical care. So it was religion's fault in the end. Also, scientology isn't the same as atheism. It's a thing of it's own. A category of it's own. Neither theist nor atheist. So don't group atheists with scientologists please.
@Sanquinity They (scientologists) don't believe in God meaning they are athiest. You cannot change the definition when it doesn't work for you. It's not religion's fault as then you are holding the 5.9 billion thiests in the world accountable for the actions of a few misguided people
@Jonathan2342 Scientologists aren't theists, no. But they are religious. Scientology is a religion after all. There's the difference. As atheists aren't religious either. But it really depends on your definition of god. I have no doubt that in some definition or form, an alien in the Scientology 'bible', could also be seen as god.
@Sanquinity Scientology became a religion for the sole purpose of avoiding taxes and employment standards. It is a scam & a con. Regardless of definition a god is worshipped (ascribed worth) as the ghosts or dead aliens are negative and scientology seeks to get rid of them, they would not be considered gods by any definition. As Atheism is defined as the disbelief or denial of God, Scientology is an atheist religion.
@Jonathan2342 I've read up on it a little. And according to the site Scientology does believe in a supreme being. A god. Not the Judean god, but still. So, I'll turn it right back to you. You even have Scientology on 'your side' of the equation. Another minus for theists.
@Sanquinity They believe that our spirit is an immortal dead all-knowing alien ghost that was killed 10,000 years ago. The scientology apologists say that their "religion" is all-denominational meaning that it will not conflict with any religious belief which, in practice is incorrect, even by their founders own words and higher level scientologists aim to remove all "false teachings" (religion). A God, is not a ghost of a dead aliensinside the body. There is no God in scientology.
@Jonathan2342 It's a supernatural higher power, aka a god. Or are you going to claim that Zeus, Loki, Nyarlathotep etc aren't gods because they're part of polytheistic systems?
The only difference between Scientology and Christianity is the time period in which they were invented.
@Jonathan2342 Yeah, this comment is old, so I hope you did some research about what being an atheist really mean... A question though: do you speak from your imagination or are you playing the etymologist with "a" and "theist"?
Atheism is a position held when someone reject the evidence presented to him for a particular god or supernatural phenomenon as being unsufficient. So now you can take back your insulting little game of putting atheists and scientologists together
Let me just say when the doctor tells you they don't know if you'll live or die there is no one to turn to not mom not dad not your spiritual leader but to GOD and only GOD and if you don't believe me there will come a day GOD forbid!
@Cleatusbodean Why do Christians always point out that Science doesn't know everything? That's the point, it's supposed to progress over time as we learn more. The truth is that God doesn't help you, humanity helps you. When you're sick, you need a doctor, not God. How people cannot believe/know this is preposterous and absurd. Religion is complete insanity
@TheRationalist76 Listen to me sonny boy! There have been recorded incidents where doctor don't have a clue ! Patients have been told they terminal and some how survive. It is called a miracle! WHAT I DON"T UNDERSTAND IS WHY YOU WOULD WASTE YOUR PRECIOUS TIME TRYING TO CONVINCE ME THERE IS NO GOD! I you ask me I think atheist are preposterous and absurb! There will come a day when you will think of the LORD JESUS CHRIST!
@Cleatusbodean Doctors can make mistakes and the human body can do miraculous things, no God involved. And you have to expect that if YOU'RE the one coming on this video posting your message about God, so i feel the need to give the opposing view, or else YouTube wouldn't be very fun, would it? Nonetheless, Atheists aren't the ones that come up to my door, preaching the "good news" about the "good Lord", when really, that is a waste of time! Get out of the dark ages, there is no God and noChrist
@TheRationalist76 Docs can and do make mistakes mister! Who are you to tell me no god involved? You can post anything you want BUT I have no need for someone to preach to me that there ain't no god! No athiest do not go door to door they just blog on youtube. It's a waste of time for you ! You get your head outta of the dark ages! Sorry I DO love GOD and not you or your hoard of non believers will change that! PING!
@Cleatusbodean There weren't many Atheists during the Dark Ages, and those who were, were persecuted by the Oh-so-great Church. So no, in no way am i stuck in the Dark Ages. My point was to say that you're stuck in an age of irrationality and a time when religion dominated, causing one of the worst points in European History. And it is not a waste of time. The internet is where people go to ask these questions because society condemns it. Atheism is on the rise my friend, and for a reason
@Cleatusbodean And if you don't want to hear the Truth about your God, get off the internet. This is where people come to discus such topics, and if you don't want to talk about it, don't comment on the video. And to reply to your "Docs can and do make mistakes mister!", of course they do. But Doctors have done more for the benefit of the health of the Human race than religion ever has or can do. People aren't healed because you pray for them, they're healed because someone knows the condition
@TheRationalist76 Well look at you talking about truth and taking over the internet! Man you moved in pretty fast there slick! Look truth is you don't the mysteries of life and niether do I but they are there wheather you want to see them or not they happen. As far as discussing I thought I was playing that game with you. You got everything down to a science damn you good boyeeee! I'm not talking against doctors but when they can't help.......all you got is GOD!
@Cleatusbodean So you replace the gap of not knowing things by adding in fairy tales made by dehydrated Jews in the desert? Wow, impressive. And no, you don't just have God, he doesn't exist. You have sheer probability or natural phenomenon, no "God" involved "boyeeee". And you can continue to attempt to put down Atheism because we are on the internet, when who else is here right now arguing with me? Oh yeah, you. But nothing new, a Theist being a complete hypocrite, following your history well
@TheRationalist76 This is the reason why I get tired of half witted atheist. you bore me with the schtuff over and over again. You fight for your so called intellect and wit. Where as I fight for JESUS and GOD above. You have nothing to prove but yourselves ( and that ain't much). I in turn protect my LORD and GOD! You people are all belligerent and obnoxious and obviously self centered! NEXT!
@Cleatusbodean You're a fool. I fight for humanity, not a made up sky God who sends people to eternal life in clouds or burning forever. I fight to give freedom to humanity while you continue to enslave people with your totalitarian "God". I fight to help the poor and sick, because there is no afterlife, and they are in need of help, and as my fellow human, i must help them. You, my sir, are the belligerent one. I am attempting to speak my opinion and share my views and YOU are the one attacking
@TheRationalist76 And your my hero! You sound like some kina mighty mouse or something HA! You insult the LORD you insult ME! Now show some respect and you'll get like wise. Hey buddy we're all humans here. My line work deals with the sick and poor don't feel like the super justice lone ranger here ok.
@Cleatusbodean I don't care if it insults you. I could care less if it hurts your feelings that i insult your fairy tales. I just want a society filled with rational and reasonable minds that allow for helping one another. Religion builds a society on irrationality and no proof, which leads to dumb action. And i'm glad you help the poor and sick, good. We all should be doing it. Not because of God, but because of what's right. Respect is given where respect is due, and you are not due of it
@TheRationalist76 SO what do you want? you're barking about being civil then you turn around and act like a nut job ! Go take your meds and leave me alone! You want a society and REASONABLE MINDS thats a joke! GET OUTTA MY LIFE ALREADY I"M SICK OF THIS!!!
@Cleatusbodean We're on the internet...you're the one that CHOOSE to come on to this Atheist video and comment endorsing your religion. I'm not being uncivil, I'm just speaking from the mind on a place where free speech is encouraged (which the Church did not allow for for centuries). Now you can yell how you want me to get out of your life, when once again, who comes up to doors converting? Who came on this video? See because you can't be happy knowing you believe, everyone else has to also
@TheRationalist76 YOUR DONE WHACK JOB! What you say doesn't matter any more! Youtube put these stupid videos on my recommended list. And so I put my statement, after all that what it's about right ! You said it yourself or did you forget that too! So go create your nazi genocide and have fun doing it! Geeze! Now I understand why GOD brought on the flood! And it'll happen again!
@Cleatusbodean What kind of deluded world do you live in in which you believe that i am a "whack job"? I never said your initial statement was correct, i said there is no God, and that yes, sometimes doctors don't know everything. Surprised? Next, there was no flood. There is no evidence for their ever being a mass flood of the Earth less than 6000 years ago. Last, i don't understand how you could call me a Nazi, most Nazis were Christian. 98.5% to be exact. cont.
@Cleatusbodean Nonetheless, i am a leftist if anything. Yet i find it very disturbing that you would ever call me a Nazi believing in Genocide, when i have clearly stated my intent was to help all of humanity. But then again, shouldn't i be turning the tables on you? God has killed more than Hitler and the Nazi Regime ever could imagine. Now in reality, Christianity (through the years) is closer to Nazism then my believes. Jesus calls the Jews the spawn of Satan, which led to mass murders
@TheRationalist76 You have all the traits of an atheist alright! Your views are warped son! I a bit touched! You want a perfect world where people are reasonable ? YOU should learn to accept people the way they are that includes christens. If you are telling the truth that you serve the sick and poor(not) then amoung those sick and poor are christens. RESPECT son thats what it boils down to ! That"s the only way you will find peace in this world.
@Cleatusbodean I do accept Christians, i just don't agree with what they have to say
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
-François Mari Arouet, Voltaire (a large criticizer of the Church)
I am sorry that you find it hard to believe that an Atheist doesn't help the poor, quite sad actually. Now i believe you disrespected the medical profession without your statement. God never appears to help those without doctors, does he? You are the warped one
And what is it that you want? See, the problem with Christians is, they can't be happy knowing they believe, everyone else has to also, right? I'm okay that you believe in God and your Holy Book, but stay out of everyone's business. You can discuss God with your friends and such and discuss him all you want, but just quit trying to get everyone else to believe it. I "pray" for a day when everyone can just love each other. We can have theoretical debate, but still tolerate
@TheRationalist76 Hey pay attention! look at my first statement it doesn't require and answer! Typical atheist try to turn things around! I am not push it on anybody but morons like you have to reply! You quote the bible why? You don't believe it exist right? But you're ready and willing to point out whatever you can use against me. You talk about love ? Man you ARE dangerous to people! I DON"T CARE WHAT YOU BELIEVE!!!! U PRAY TO WHAT?????
@Cleatusbodean So when you post a comment on YouTube, you would rather someone not look at it and point out their opinion or disassemble what you have to say to be false? Wow, you should probably stop posting comments then. I do believe in love but i also can appreciate a theoretical debate, and i wish you could too. Why do i quote the Bible? Because you believe in it, and i would like to point out some flaws in your belief system. I'm beginning to think your page is a joke though, it's scary
@TheRationalist76 It didn't require an answer numbnuts! It's just a statement I made take or leave it. I'm not forcing religion on you. You're the one that took the bait. CAPICHE! You people are so paranoid it's funny to toy around with you guys. Keep it coming though you entertain me. It's interesting to read your statement . Very cynical and dark. It's a love I have for the LORD and GOD above that no one will take from me! your turn.
@Cleatusbodean Well i'm glad to be a source of entertainment for you mate, yet i haven't used anything beyond rational defenses. Now you're right, it did not require a response. Yet isn't that what you wanted. I mean, you made the comment because you wanted skepticism, correct? Now it wasn't your comment that made be think your forcing religion on me, its elsewhere. It's people coming to my door trying to convert me, it's the Religion that fills my politics, cont.
I say this as a Devil's Advocate, given that I no longer believe in Divine Command Morality. If there is a God, and that God does command you to sacrifice your child, how could you justify disobeying? Isn't He the God who created you, your child, and morality itself? Doesn't that mean that He gets to make the rules? And wouldn't the same apply if He issued a command not to use medicine? How can you disobey God when God is the one who decides what is good and what is bad?
Imitorar 1 month ago
To clarify, my point is that Divine Command Morality is the only logical approach to morality in light of the existence of God, assuming that e exists. And most truly religious people, certainly the ones who deprive their children of medical care, do believe in DCM. From their perspective, they really didn't do anything wrong. And you can't convince them otherwise, without either convincing them that God permits the use of medicine, or that God does not exist and is not the source of morality.
Imitorar 1 month ago
Well what if this God actually is a giant asshole with omnipotence? Like a dictator on steroids, he demands you be his bitch for life, and he'll think about not screwing with you for eternity. If that's the case, we could not worship on principle, but many might consider paying the protection fee worth it just to avoid the consequences.
ddrddrddrddr 1 month ago
Well said/done C0nc0rdance ★★★★★
Katalyzt
Katalyzt 1 month ago
wouldnt getting a transplant of any kind or having any life saving measures performed on a believer be against gods will? if the person dies they say it is gods will.......but what if man brought them back to life? that wouldnt be a miracle if a trained medical professional did their job....
doctors and medicines are tangible proof that prayer and gods are fake.
wideosvatcher 1 month ago
if you want to let yourself die, that's fine by me, but if you wanna push your stupid fucking religious shit on your kids, too bad.
CHAOSin8bits 1 month ago
@C0nc0rdance It's not my Interpretation over another person or group. Besides the 10 commandments regarding man, the Bible is not meant to give an objective moral answer to everything. Like the Bible says, 2 ppl can be in disagreement but if 1 does what they know isn't right, they sin. So let the JW do as they please. Christians are Christians bc they in Jesus Christ as their savior. Period.
ladyEulaelie 2 months ago
@ladyEulaelie
I think you confused the original point. The JW ARE doing what they please, and children are dying as a result. They DO believe in Jesus as their savior, and they follow the Bible, as they see it. That prevents them from receiving life-saving transfusions and insulin.
Are you okay with that? How can we persuade religious people who put the safety of their children in jeopardy that God wants them to disregard the scriptural commandments they were taught?
C0nc0rdance 2 months ago
@C0nc0rdance No, I understand your point on JW & their children unnecessarily dying. Several groups claim Christianity and have a completely radical interpretation of the Bible that I strongly disagree w/. From my understanding, JW don't believe in the divinity of Jesus & if this is true, they would not be Christians.
Here is what I'm not ok w/: Unlike what you siad, there is no scriptural command for objective morals as far as medical care. If there were, they would be right.
ladyEulaelie 2 months ago
@ladyEulaelie I'd love to tell you I was also a JW. However I do not think you have ever been in a situation where death is right around the corner. Here is my point though, how exactly may a creator love you if he plans for you to die even when there is a 100% possibility to save you. Now here is to your point. There may be no scriptural command but, may you please explain this to me, why does every human feel sorrow when a person or especially his child dies?
Inventor672 1 month ago
@Inventor672 We all have personal experiences w/ death in some way. I actually have been in a situation where death was right around the corner for a very close love one. Your question to me is like asking if God loves creation so much why does he allow fish to get wet all the time. This world is not ideal & to think it should be if God exists is incredibly naive. You are looking for a epistemology type answer so here goes: We all die & feel sorrowful of death b/c of sin.
ladyEulaelie 1 month ago
@ladyEulaelie Wouldn't it feel right to let a JW die when he could ost certainly be saved. This is with what I disagree. I'd also like to ask why you feel an obligation to do this? Is it because you are 100% sure this is right? Also, why does blood have such meaning in your opinion? As far as it goes, I have never seen a JW caring about what happens to the body besides it being buried and getting over it. Is it that JW not mind what happened to him?
Inventor672 1 month ago
@Inventor672
You & I may disagree w/ other ppl's religions, but to this extent, we have to allow ppl individual freedom to themselves out of freedom of religion. We can't force CPR, blood transfusions or cancer radiation therapy if ppl refuse it.
Why do I feel obligation to do what?
Personally, I believe there is life in blood. Everyone has an opinion about everything. To that, I have to ask, why do you personally care? You should ask the remainder of your questions to a JW.
ladyEulaelie 1 month ago
@ladyEulaelie
The content of the video wasn't about adults making decisions for themselves... it was about the parents of children making choices for them that led to their death. Religious freedom comes into conflict with the right of a person to life-saving medical care. Why is religious freedom superior to a right not to die through neglect?
C0nc0rdance 1 month ago
@C0nc0rdance
Yes I understand that. Your child is an extension of yourself. You have rights over them. Like I stated in another comment, until you have the right to tell someone that they can not abort their kid, you certainly don't have the right to tell them they can't refuse medical treatment. I don't at all agree w/ what JW do in this matter but Its their way of life & I don't see any way I or anyone else can reasonably force a different belief to take place if circumstances permit.
ladyEulaelie 1 month ago
@ladyEulaelie
Do you see the implications of saying that a child has no rights independent of the parent? What about in the case of sexual or physical abuse? Exploitation? Endangerment? Neglect? The parent has a right to do what they want?
Are you prepared to follow your argument all the way through?
C0nc0rdance 1 month ago
@C0nc0rdance
A child has some rights independent of the parent, but exactly what are those rights, isn't always clear cut. Just like with abortion, I personally think every life has the right to live, but I can't force women to not abort their unborn children. I think abortion is murder...let alone abuse, endangerment and neglect. Their religion is apart of their lifestyle. Every parent has the right to refuse consent for medication or medical treatment of their child.
ladyEulaelie 1 month ago
@ladyEulaelie So what are your views on spontaneous abortion? If, as you think, abortion is murder, then who "murdered" the baby when a spontaneous abortion occurs? On a related note, if abortions are murder, would that make ectopic pregnancies a cruel joke?
tandooriconnection 1 month ago
@tandooriconnection
Spontaneous abortion? What are you views on SIDS? What is your view on people dying in their sleep. Death happens, even in the womb. That is just life. If you died in the womb or died in your sleep or nobody murdered you.
ladyEulaelie 1 month ago
@ladyEulaelie And no, you can't default rights of a child's access to proper medical treatment simply because two adults are their parents - that's ignorant to the highest degree, and you're arguing from authority. If I had a child who required life-saving, or any other medical attention, I would NOT deny them that simply because I have some religious opinion to uphold. That's just self-serving and utterly callous.
tandooriconnection 1 month ago
@tandooriconnection
I absolutely agree, but it's not my child. Everyone has different values and in my personally opinion, I don't think I should cross that line, not when those type of reasons are given.
ladyEulaelie 1 month ago
@tandooriconnection
How about parents who refuse their children life altering drugs? In some instances, isn't that worst than life saving drugs? It's like the child is buried alive instead of being dead.They have parental consent forms, like in this case, for a reason. Death occurs in every culture & will happen to everyone. We're various cultures in need of living in harmony w/ ea. other who all deal w/ death differently. I realize this & if that's self-serving, so be it.
ladyEulaelie 1 month ago
@tandooriconnection
In other words...If a parent who is competent to make medical decisions for their kid genuinely feels compelled to deny their child to receive certain medical treatment for personal, strong reasons, cultural or religious religious, I personally don't see their decision as going against an objective moral value. I think that is where I'm drawing the line as far as dipping into other people's business...is it a violation of an objective moral value.
ladyEulaelie 1 month ago
@C0nc0rdance But that doesn't mean I agree that a parent should refuse their child medical treatment like blood transfusions that can be life saving. Simply, my argument is that people should be allowed that freedom of operation to refuse medical treatment especially in the mist of the laws we have regarding the life of their unborn child. It's either got to be one way or another. I can't say nothing to those ppl. I think we have to allow ppl that freedom for their born children.
ladyEulaelie 1 month ago
@ladyEulaelie If it were like you said I would be satisfied. But if those are your beliefs, than thats okay by me. I was just curious either way. However I was a JW so I know what you mean. Still I find this to be an opinion of an adult and not a child who has a long life still ahead of them. However do not respond to this comment any more as I do not want to hear any more "reasons" for this. Either way JW's shunned me out of being a JW for this and I will never forgive them and their beliefs.
Inventor672 1 month ago
@Inventor672
Sorry, I also agree with you in some sense about the matter, but It's someone else child. Until you have the right to tell them to abort their child and give them a chance to live or what not, you are a long ways from forcing this type of belief on someone else or their child. I don't agree with JW on this issue but I certainly don't think my opinion should matter to them. It's their way of life and I'm over it.
ladyEulaelie 1 month ago
@Inventor672
You were done wrong by ppl who once shared your beliefs but be revitalized in the truth; don't forsake what you know only to let bitter Christians be a stubbling block to you make you bitter too. My family & I have been wronged & were done wrong for yrs & yrs, going back before my birth up until I was 16 but I will forever be uplifted & encouraged in the truth. There is only God...yes the 1 Atheist are obsessed w/ & can't live w/o. He gives me the strength to do that. Run to God.
ladyEulaelie 1 month ago
@ladyEulaelie
Before you start referencing the Ten Commandments as moral guidelines, you should read them for yourself. They're in Exodus 34, not in Exodus 20.
rkyeun 1 month ago
@rkyeun
The 10 commandments are in Exodus 20 starting in verse 7all the way through 17.
ladyEulaelie 1 month ago
Comment removed
rkyeun 1 month ago
@ladyEulaelie
Nope. Exodus 20 does have some commandments in it. And there are ten of them. But they are not The Ten Commandments.
Exodus 34.10-11: I'm making a covenant with you. Here's some commandments to obey.
Exodus 34.12-26: Ten commandments.
Exodus 34.27: That was the covenant, write it down.
Exodus 34.28: That covenant he wrote was totally The Ten Commandments.
Apologists like to add "The Ten Commandments" as a chapter heading to Exodus 20 specifically to draw attention.
rkyeun 1 month ago
@C0nc0rdance I know the difference bc I take into account the context of an entire chapter and along with other verses. Patients don't receive spilled blood...they receive insuline, a hormone isolated from blood. The meat was also isolated from the blood...that was acceptable. I don't see why it can not also be with insulin
ladyEulaelie 2 months ago
There are no theists in hospitals? Maybe 5% of religious people don't use medicine or hospitals. Aren't a large portion of well-trusted doctors, outspoken theists? There's nothing new in this video. People do cruel, stupid, horrible things in the name of religion. They've been malconditioned. It's sad. It's been happening for thousands of years now.
lightbrownpoop 2 months ago
@lightbrownpoop
The title is in the same vein as "There are no atheists in foxholes". In a hospital, we all put faith in human technology, rather than relying on divine healing a la Jesus. Which is perfectly rational, reasonable behavior. It's the people who refuse to compromise that little bit that are causing so much harm.
C0nc0rdance 2 months ago
@C0nc0rdan I hear ya. And the faith or "belief" in the medical procedure has a huge role in whether the person is going to get well or not. The placebo and nocebo effects are amazing. This is how miracle, divine or "faith" healings work as well. The simple act of belief is what healed the problem. Faith and doubt are interesting concepts.
lightbrownpoop 2 months ago
I'd never trust the life of my love one to a minister over a MD. I also wouldn't trust the repair of a missing button on a blouse to a minister over a seamstress. This does not speak for non belief in power of prayer. It's not man I trust in, but God. If I prayed for God to help me and he sent a man in boat to rescue me is that not answered prayer?
Works w/o faith is useless & prayer w/ faith but w/o works is as equally useless.
You want God to snap his fingers, but he works through ppl.
ladyEulaelie 2 months ago
@ladyEulaelie
Ok. Now how are you going to address that argument to a faith healing believer? A Jehovah's Witness?
They put their faith "completely in God". They trust His will. They live by His scripture. How do you persuade them to take insulin, or treat a fever with antibiotics? This is not an academic exercise.
C0nc0rdance 2 months ago
@C0nc0rdance
I don't know what Jehova's Witnesses believe. I'm going off the Bible and no where in the Bible are people condemn ppl to take insulin or to follow modern medicine. One of the 12 apostles was like a modern medicine physician in his day.
I believe in going to doctors, but what is wrong with faith healing? I put my faith completely in God and Iive by the scripture, but that is not the same as saying that I don't go to doctors or I would never send my dying love one to a MD.
ladyEulaelie 2 months ago
@ladyEulaelie
Leviticus 17:10-14. Deuteronomy 12:20-27. Acts 15.
Insulin is a serum protein, derived from blood.
C0nc0rdance 2 months ago
@C0nc0rdance Insulin is a hormone that regulates glucose in the blood. You find it in the blood, but it is not blood itself. Insulin can be isolated and extracted as a separate thing away from blood.
Even then, nobody says, eats or ingests insulin...insulin is usually rejected. Those verses are about eating/drinking blood.
ladyEulaelie 2 months ago
@C0nc0rdance
*Even then, nobody says, "I'm going to eat insulin for breakfast." Insulin can be received through an insulin pump straight to the stomach, but it is almost always injected. These verses are about people commonly drinking or eating blood.
ladyEulaelie 2 months ago
@ladyEulaelie
So how do you know that the Bible's commandment to discard blood once it leaves the body doesn't apply to medical applications? If spilled blood is unclean by definition, how can injecting it be okay?
You understand that I reject these teachings as well, but your interpretation has no privilege. Therein lies the problem. Why do Jehovah's Witnesses not realize how in error they are, since yours is the one true interpretation?
C0nc0rdance 2 months ago
@C0nc0rdance
I also find it ironic that the father of bacteriology, (some ppl refer to him as the father of modern medicine), Luis Pasture, came about the germ theory, leading the sterilization of surgical instruments and surgical rooms, saving thousands of lives...all inspired from reading the book of Leviticus.
The irony kills me.
ladyEulaelie 2 months ago
Why would people want to hurt their own child? Knowing my dad, it is kinda strange to think of someone that is your parent would put you in harm.
brongarago 3 months ago
@sngcoach Your reason for making the video should be all the more reason to pay attention if someone rejects it off-hand. It's called "there are no theists in hospital waiting rooms," which is holding Christianity accountable for its radical fringe (and we know it's not theism in general, because that's the only religion covered). You called logical fallacy on someone pointing that out. If they meant that it's not in line with Christian principals, Jesus is love, etc., that's another thing.
LokiClock 3 months ago
Ham & cheese sandwiches
dave474c 4 months ago
P.S. christian science, catholicism, JWism isn't christianity
anonazero 4 months ago
@anonazero
Ah. Well, that's good to know.
Hey, on a completely unrelated note, have you ever heard of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy?
C0nc0rdance 4 months ago
@C0nc0rdance of course, have you heard of the "people don't lie to themselves and others" fallacy?
on a completely unrelated note, dawkins must be a christian because like jehovah's witnesses he is a human being with ideas and even though those ideas are contrary to what the bible actually says a christian must believe in order to be a christian he must be a christian because he has things on common with christians (even though those aren't things that actually make a christian a christian).
anonazero 4 months ago
@C0nc0rdance The No True Scotsman fallacy relies on changing a universal's scope each time an example doesn't support a claim about the universal. That's actually what you're doing when you ignore the fact that only these few sects of Christianity could be used as the definition of Christianity in general if your argument is to be used as a universal claim about Christianity. Furthermore, you're going from particular to universal by using an argument only valid for these sects against the whole.
LokiClock 4 months ago
@anonazero Over 2 billion members across the world, spanning over 38000 sects and denominations, all claiming to be of the "true Church", yet none can agree on what a "true Christian" is.
Akira625 3 months ago
your make the mistake of assuming that God doesn't use doctors and medicine.
its called "common grace".
anonazero 4 months ago
im a christian but go to doctors god gave them their knowledge to do their job and their job is to treat us for whatever illness we have thats why it was given to them
duffyc64 5 months ago
@duffyc64 but the bible has lots of medical treatmints in it deliverd by god... have you never read it? docters use sientific descovires made by man, so whos hands do you put your life into when you go to the docters god or man?
Willnash666 5 months ago
@Willnash666 I ran a good google search on "biblical medical advice" and came up very much short. Care to point me to a few verses?
StrikaAmaru 5 months ago
@Willnash666: "the bible has lots of medical treatmints in it deliverd by god"
Yeah, and none of them work. That's why real doctors don't use the bible as a medical reference.
mikefromwa 4 months ago
I used to think saying religion kills is a huge overstatement, I was wrong
hypercannon1 5 months ago
is it wrong for me to say i wanna beat every parent mentioned in this video to death? cause i do
wolfboy410 6 months ago
Good thing denying help (for whatever stupid reason) is illegal in most civilized countries.
kn4llfrosch 6 months ago
That is just about the stupidest video I have seen. Very few Christians deny medical care to people but, for the sake of argument 194 children compared to the thousands of children who die each year due to medical malpractice and mis-diagnosis of the medical system, not to mention those who die because they have no access to medicine. Moral Authority of the Bible has no correlation to medical treatment just look at the # of hospitals which were started or currently operated by Christians.
Jonathan2342 7 months ago
@Jonathan2342
What makes this so tragic is that these children died while their parents actively prevented simple procedures from saving their lives because of their beliefs. This was the intentional act of a parent torn between faith and their love for their child.
I hope you see the special tragedy here. It's not about numbers, although there are many more kids at risk than you may think, and most religious medical neglect goes unreported. It's about caring for these lost lives.
C0nc0rdance 7 months ago
@C0nc0rdance I would agre 100% Any child who dies from any preventable illness is a tregedy. But the purpose of your video, IMO, is to suggest that the actions of those people invalidate the Moral authority of the Bible. This starts right from the title. It is not a biblical principle to deny health care to people, quite the opposite. Christian groups are actively bringing health care to the world. Bad parents come from all backgrounds.
Jonathan2342 7 months ago
What you're saying is really silly.
There are probably even more examples of people who were brought to doctors and suffered or died because of it. But we're not able to number these because we don't know what 'could' have happened otherwise, but it's probably in the billions. George Washington?
In fact, i have a few examples within my own family. I know a woman who was being treated for diabetes and after going to a doctor was later diagnosed with severe brain damage. The doctors ruined her.
knowwaie 7 months ago
Not to mention that many of the illnesses that exist now, did not exist in the past, nor are they as common in other counties.
Atheists today are really saying is let the scientists cure you illnesses since they were the ones who caused many of them in the first place. You know that this is exactly how modern medicine works don't you? You take one pill to combat the illness and another for the side effects, and to no end. Spend your whole life on a diet of pills then make your whiny video.
knowwaie 7 months ago
Thirdly, just to drive my point home. The woman i mentioned was a university teacher who came over from the Philippines a healthy smart beautiful woman, when she got to America she turned into a fat retarded slob. What caused this? A change of attitude?...
By the way, it has nothing to do with the hospitals. It is the pharmaceutical companies that produce all these chemicals that ruin people who have not 'evolved' to them. You and i are healthy because we have adapted to this chemical plant.
knowwaie 7 months ago
@Jonathan2342 Scientologists deny Psychology.
Witnesses deny blood transfusions.
Hospitals didn't begin with religion, they began with someone understanding an illness or injury and knowing how to treat it. Hospitals began with science.
Davin404 7 months ago
@Davin404 Funny, Scientologists would probably be Athiest as they don't really believe in God (IMO it is a business) and the JW are not Christian (they don't worship Christ) I never said they begin with religion I said that most hospitals were STARTED by Christian orders (that is why they carry the names ST. ...) Also, historically, Christians have been providing medical care for the pop. since it's inception, Luke was a Doctor.. Christians stayed behind and took care of Plague victims.
Jonathan2342 6 months ago
@Jonathan2342 The plague is an awful example. Look up Plague Doctors. They were typically religious, and believed in so many useless treatments. Begin and start are synonymous, by the way. The issue you're bringing up is funding. Fine, some hospitals were funded by religion. That doesn't mean religion has any place in a hospital. If it wasn't for medical science, we'd still be dealing people in bird masks and black coats.
Davin404 6 months ago
@Davin404 And you just proved my point, this vid attempts to build a correlation between the denial of medical care to children and religion, clearly a false correlation, by your admission. We can discuss the impact of reliigion on hospital care if you want (separate discussion) but it is clear that religion and Christians in particular, have been involved in medicine for over 2000 years. look up the history and you will see that many of the breakthroughs were done by Christians.
Jonathan2342 6 months ago
@Jonathan2342 I haven't proven anything. There is a correlation between religion and denying medical care to children. The only thing that's been proven is that not ALL religions deny children of medical attention. Whether or not you choose to accept the truth is not my problem, but the correlation is there. Breakthroughs from Christians are a moot point. Christianity didn't discover penicillin, nor did it have anything to do with the discovery.
Davin404 6 months ago
@Davin404 Not liking something doesn't make it true. There is no correlation between Christians (he uses the bible) and denying medical care. To prove such a point you need more than 165 children for the millions of Christians in North America. You would also need to show that.
A) Christians are not involved in medical care of people
B) Christians have historically not used or supported medicine
C) The MAJORITY of Christians deny medical care to their children.
Sorry dude, fail on all 3.
Jonathan2342 6 months ago
@Jonathan2342 I'm afraid you fail, bud. The video in itself isn't to prove that Christians deny health care, it's to show a correlation between religion and the denial of health care. Whether you like it or not, it's there. The title of the video is, "There are no theists in hospital waiting rooms," is true. The bible makes claims that faith alone will heal the sick, yet Christians still rely on medical science. Christianity has retarded progress, regardless of any other arguments.
Davin404 6 months ago
@Jonathan2342 And to argue your first little point... If Cold Hard facts are your reason for not liking something, then it is completely true.
Unlike Christianity. Just a reminder: Liking something doesn't make it true, no matter how popular the idea is. Remember that idiot jock from highschool that everyone thought was popular? The guy was a douche. Popular opinion didn't change that.
Davin404 6 months ago
@Davin404 As stating before, you need FACTS, you have yet to provide any. Saying you have facts is different than actually having them. How about providing them. Show me this correlation, show me that christians deny health care to their children, show me that they are not involved in providing medical care to the world. You have yet to provide anything!!
Jonathan2342 6 months ago
@Jonathan2342 You're an idiot. The argument isn't directed at Christians in general. You keep saying it is, but it's not.
You still want an example? Fine. AIDS. AIDS runs rampant through the world, and the Pope says condoms are immoral. They've been proven time and time again to prevent the spread of AIDS, and the Pope denies the people of Africa the use of them. Children, who have no choice, are born with AIDS because of this.
Fucking eat it, you stupid son of a bitch.
Davin404 6 months ago
@Davin404 Allright, lets use that, the Pope promotes Abstinance, a much safer way to avoid the transfer of Aids than Condoms (the HIV virus can penetrate some types of condoms, they can break etc.) Also, I personally know that the Church is involved in the care and feeding of those kids who are orphaned by AIDs. Sorry dude, name calling doesn't change reality.
Jonathan2342 6 months ago
@Jonathan2342 Neither does denying reality. The Pope can claim abstinence is the best prevention, but he is doing a terrible job at it. Instead of taking the higher path and saying, "If I can't stop you, at least be safe," he says, "If I can't stop you, we will have to watch you die."
As for the church taking care of orphans? And? The state does that just fine. The church is merely cleaning it's own mess. Further, they do nothing for children WITH AIDS. Science is trying to clean that mess.
Davin404 6 months ago
@Davin404 The only 100% way of preventing the spread of AIDs is abstinance, that is the high path. Plus condoms are not medical care. Maybe they should give condoms to Sudanese Rebels as well so they can wrap their jimmy before they rape. The state cares for orphans fine ???? that is the stupidest thing you have said yet, go to Africa / Southeast Asia / South America and say that. Often, families send their children to the Christian Orphanages because the care is better than they can provide.
Jonathan2342 6 months ago
@Jonathan2342 Whether or not you like it, people in Africa are going to have sex. Because the pope can't stop them, he condemns them to an life with AIDS. That is not now, nor will it ever be the high road.
You fucking people say Atheists are the ones without morals. You make me sick.
Davin404 6 months ago
@Davin404 What they are going to do anyway is not the point, the fact still remains that the safest way to prevent transmission of AIDS is abstinance and that, rightly should be taught, not rolling the dice with a condom. There is no morality to say, screw away and hope the rubber doesn't bust, I would suggest that the "they will do it anyway" position is the immoral one. Also, I don't see Athiests going down to Africa and taking care of those people, but that is a different discussion.
Jonathan2342 6 months ago
@Jonathan2342 It's not rolling the dice. Condoms have been proven to work. By your awful logic, we shouldn't be teaching abstinence because people can get AIDS other ways. You will never be able to stop people from having sex. They are always going to have sex.
Condoms are not "rolling the dice." They work more than 99% of the time, this is FACT.
And Atheists DO go and help these people. Atheists the world over are helping people. We're just not attributing it to imaginary friends. Fuck off.
Davin404 6 months ago
@Davin404 And by your logic, we should be sending condoms home with playschool students because there would always be those people who molest kids. We don't because what people do is irrevelant to what is best. Condoms are 85% effective when used properly and when they don't break or fall off or are misapplied, I will go with the 100% of abstinance, especially when dealing with something like STD's.
Jonathan2342 6 months ago
@Jonathan2342 Sex isn't illegal anywhere in the world. No one will ever make sex illegal. Raping children is illegal. Don't ask Christianity, though, they'll only quiet the children and move the perpetrators. Condoms work more than 85% of the time. They can break, yeah. So you grab a new fucking condom. The only way you can "misapply" a condom is if you're not sticking it on your fucking dick. It's not rocket science.
I agree with you. You shouldn't have sex. Your seed shouldn't go on.
Davin404 6 months ago
@Davin404 Hey it's your logic, they will do it anyway is the standard we should use, not legality. Thats why people like you siggest giving needles to drug addicts (Illegal activity) so legality doesn't seem to metter. 85% is the effectiveness rate of a condom to guard against AIDs, through google. 99% is the effectiveness rate for pregnancy. Simple FACTS. AIDs rates have increased in Africa since people have shipped condoms over there for them. do some research
Jonathan2342 6 months ago
@Jonathan2342 Fine, lets apply your logic to the world. To begin, we should stop children from riding bikes. Helmets aren't 100%. We shouldn't allow cars because seat belts aren't 100%. We shouldn't have planes, because all of their safety measures aren't 100%. Do you see how stupid this is?
There's nothing illegal about consensual sex. We should hand out fresh needles to these people. Why? I don't want them to DIE. That's the difference between the two of us. I have empathy and you don't.
Davin404 6 months ago
@Davin404 It is about the most effective means available, I would rather see a person not get AIDs or be released from addiction than condoning their actions, that is empathy. Your methods have actually been shown to increase disease. Education and Treatment has been shown much more effective. The issue has never been about what is legal, it is addressing your notion that the pope is responsible for AIDS deaths because he teaches abstinance and not throwing condoms at people.
Jonathan2342 6 months ago
@Jonathan2342 Put up or shut up. I want to see your tests that support your claims.
I'm done talking with you.
I'm amazed that a religion based on guilt can turn out such heartless people like you.
Davin404 6 months ago
@Davin404 The stats are easy to find. Two articles are
- godandscience (dot) org / apologetics / catholic_church_aids_africa .html
- catholiceducation (dot) org / articles / sexuality / se0089 .html
Jonathan2342 6 months ago
@Jonathan2342 Your stats are both biased. Science doesn't allow for bias, and neither will I. Science doesn't set out to disprove religion, it never has. It only sets out to find what is real and true. Both of your articles are based in religion, therefore cannot be neutral in the argument.
I wouldn't present an article that says, "Ha ha, God does not exist," and I'd hope you'd have the same respect to present one that doesn't say, "God says it, so it must be true."
Davin404 6 months ago
@Davin404 They are bias because they don't agree with you? If you don't like the numbers, provide alternatives! It is such an easy way to try to discredit somebody to say they are bias because it doesn't require any real information. Am I bias, OF COURSE!! and so are you, and so is every scientist out there, to say they are not is absolutely ignorant. It doesn't mean that the stats are not valid. If you don't like them, then do some brainwork and try to disprove them.
Jonathan2342 6 months ago
@Jonathan2342 They're biased because they have a personal, emotional stake in religion. Just like you do. They have a reason to lie. If you can't see the bias in your argument, then you've already lost. I'm not saying I am not biased, I'm saying that the evidence can't be. You're providing biased evidence.
If I provided results from, say, the Trojan Condom company, would you accept it? They'd support my side, but they're biased. They want to sell condoms. Your evidence wants to sell God.
Davin404 6 months ago
@Jonathan2342 But hey, if you really want to be an idiot, look up the CDC. They'll tell you how good condoms are. I mean, they are only controlling and preventing diseases. I'm sure their bias is acceptable, since they don't want people to get sick.
Davin404 6 months ago
@Davin404 Once again you have yet to offer anything of value up. You did not like the stats offered but you have yet to come up with anything other than unsubstantiated rhetoric. Here is a quote from the CDC
It should be noted that condom use cannot provide absolute protection against HIV. The surest way to avoid transmission of HIV is to abstain from sexual intercourse or to be in a long-term mutually monogamous relationship with a partner who has been tested and you know is uninfected.
Jonathan2342 6 months ago
@Jonathan2342 Okay, your point? It doesn't have to be 100%. The point is that it works. It works better than your idiotic pop says it does. If the condom isn't defective, it will be 100%. HIV particles are too large to move there the nuclei of the molecules in the condom.
Further, you are not going to stop people from having sex. It's going to happen whether you like it or not. The best course of action is the use the BEST form of protection against the disease.
Davin404 6 months ago
@Davin404 And even by the CDC, the BEST course of action is Abstinance. If you can PROVE 100% protection from HIV/AIDS then you are even better than the CDC.
The point has always been the morality of teaching abstinance as opposed to condom use in the prevention of AIDS transmission. I have shown over and over again with facts that there is no responsibility of the Vatican for 3rd world AIDs as they teach the best way to avoid transmission. I'm through arguing with you, have a nice life!
Jonathan2342 6 months ago
@Jonathan2342 There IS responsibility, you cad. They are not saying, "Use condoms if you like, but abstinence is better." They're saying, "Don't use condoms at all," then denying these people the use of condoms.
Get a fucking life and stop living vicariously through a crusty old man who knows NOTHING about the world.
Davin404 6 months ago
@Davin404 I'm not Catholic, dumbass, but what he says is that sex only should be in marriage between two adults. It was your example. The CDC (your example) says the same thing as the Pope, that Abstinance is the safest method of protection against STD's. You have yet to come up with anything sensical to show accountability but, even so, accountability would only happen if condoms were more effective than abstinence. read the stats, your position is nonsense.
Jonathan2342 6 months ago
@Jonathan2342 The Pope doesn't say it's the best way, he says it's the only way. He denies that condoms work at all. Further, nothing about Christianity says you can't have sex if you're not an adult. It says you can't have sex if you're not married. It says you shouldn't waste your seed, which is why the Pope is against condoms in the first place.
You're arguing from religion, which means you lost at the beginning. Religion knows nothing of evidence, and you're brainwashed.
Davin404 6 months ago
@Davin404 If I lost and am brainwashed, you should have been able to handle this discussion easily but you have yet to come up with anything to prove your position, that the Pope is responsible for the AIDS epidemic by not condoning condom use. There are Athiest Abstinance groups as well. If you want your kid to screw everything in sight, all the power to you. Most people don't though because they know the risks. I'm through entertaining your ignorance, maybe when you have kids youll know.
Jonathan2342 6 months ago
@Jonathan2342 I already have. Several times. You haven't accepted it because you're brainwashed. If the condom is not defective, it works 100% of the time. As I've already stated, HIV cannot physically penetrate latex. I have also stated that the Pope is not just saying condoms are ineffective, he is preventing access to them. That makes him, personally, responsible.
Further, I am not saying abstinence is wrong, I'm saying good luck forcing it. The Church fails, and then condemns people to AIDS
Davin404 6 months ago
@Jonathan2342 CDC:
Laboratory studies have demonstrated that latex condoms provide an essentially impermeable barrier to particles the size of HIV.
Fluid the size of HIV cannot pass through the latex of a condom. Use it right, and you're 100% protected from AIDS through sexual intercourse.
Now shut up and go away.
Davin404 6 months ago
@Davin404
World Health Organization Vol 82 No 6 Dated June, 2004 First, consistent condom use among heterosexual couples in which one partner was infected with HIV reduced the risk of HIV transmission from men to women and vice versa... They estimated that compared with no condom use, consistent condom use resulted in an overall 87% reduction in risk of HIV transmission, wit...ranging from 60% to 96%. In an update of this analysis, ...a revised estimate of an 80% reduction in risk
Jonathan2342 6 months ago
@Jonathan2342 You still haven't addressed the main issue, you've just been dodging it over and over. Why does the Pope prevent people from access to condoms? Why does he sow distrust in condom use? Why does he sow distrust in masturbation, for that matter? Masturbation has been shown to lower stress, prevent over stimulation, aid in proper cardio health, etc. Even if I were to accept your "proof," again, helmets for bike riding aren't 100%. Why don't we get rid of them?
Davin404 6 months ago
@Jonathan2342 Chemotherapy isn't 100%, and is very dangerous. Organ transplants aren't 100%, and when they fail they almost always mean death of the patient. Hell, even science can't be 100% sure of anything. Are you saying that we should toss out and deny anything that isn't 100%? That's absurd. When you eat, are you 100% sure you won't choke and die? Your obsession with 100% is stupid. Get it out of your head. A treatment is a treatment, and as long as it works at all, that's enough to keep.
Davin404 6 months ago
@Jonathan2342 Seems to me that you can't accept your own personal faith which cheers you up in this big bad world causes harm like this. Irrational thinking and beliefs are dangerous (remember 9/11?) The better understand of reality a person has and the more informed they are then the smarter choices they will make in life.
rex786 6 months ago
@rex786 no, I don't agree with the statement as it is completely unfounded. There is a difference between people using religion as a means of control and an assertion that religion causes suffering in the world. To say that theism denies health care as this video suggests is to ignore thousands of years of history showing the contrary. Health care and spirituality has been linked since the stone age. Even now, there is a large # of theists in the med. system. Reality is not subjective
Jonathan2342 6 months ago
@Jonathan2342 People do terrible things in the name of gods, fact. I don't think the video is suggesting theism = no medicine ever. Just that some people do deny their children healthcare for no good reason and as a result the children suffer and sometimes die. Which is a shame and is the result of irrational beliefs from the parent, fact. These things are happening, no history changes that and theists being doctors does not change that. Reality isnt subjective but its interpreted differently.
rex786 6 months ago
@rex786 People do terrible things period, God has little to do with it Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot Etc killed more people than all of Christian History. I acknowledge, as practically all Christians (or theists) do that anybody denying medical care on religious grounds is probably not acting in the best interest of their child or acting on a correct interpretation of their faith. When you say "No Theists in Hospital Waiting Room" the implication is pretty clear.
Jonathan2342 6 months ago
@Jonathan2342 lol i think you are taking that title too seriously. I doubt the maker of the vid things there are literally no theists in any hospitals. People do terrible things and god has nothing to do with it because he is made up. But people are motivated to do terrible things because they think its what their god wants and religion can be used as a tool to brainwash people into blowing themselves up or flying planes into buildings. Which is why videos like this need to be made.
rex786 6 months ago
@rex786 thinks*
rex786 6 months ago
@rex786 I guess truth is a secondary objective then? People don't need god to do terrible things, the worst atrocities of the 20th century came from athiests! I guess I could say that faith in God actually minimizes our perpensity to do evil. Athiests did not invent genocide, they just perfected it. And regarding medicine, as I stated before scientologist would be considered athiest as they believe in the ghosts of dead aliens possessing our bodies, not in God.
Jonathan2342 6 months ago
@Jonathan2342 Nobody will do bad things for the SAKE of atheism, why on earth would you? atheism is just a lack of belief in gods. The religious socities and governments in the world are the third world countries generally, coincidence? 9/11....religion made them do it. Ireland...catholics vs protestants, India/Pakistan....muslims vs hindus, holocaust....so many soldiers schooled and trained to hate jews and blame them for jesus. Nigeria...parents killing babies due to "demon possesing"
rex786 6 months ago
@Jonathan2342 Afghanistan...blowing up girls schools cos islam says women should stay at home. America....blowing up abortion clinics, genitial mutilation all over the world, uganda gay people being sentenced to death cos of religious text and belief. Hitler was a roman catholic; even if he was athiest all his soldiers werent. And Stalin was an athiest but didnt kill people in the name of atheism lol. People might do a bad thing cos they think god wants them to, if you deny this youre insane
rex786 6 months ago
@rex786 I did not even brig up Hitler because it is the only genocidal maniac that you try to pin on Christianity, even though the evidence regarding him and his top officers being Athiest / Satanists is overwhelming. I will never condone or defend islam. Christian fundamentalists are a very small group that is widely condemmed by every denomination. But still numbers don't lie. Mao 43.7 M, Stalin 23 M, Pol Pot 1.7M, Kim il Sun 1.6M - # killed by Pro-life fanatics? maybe a couple dozen?
Jonathan2342 6 months ago
@Jonathan2342 Lol my point is nobody will ever do anything wrong because they are athiests. There are bad people who happen to be athiests but there is no logical pathway leading from atheism to doing terrible things. Very small group? Does not matter if its a small group; its still wrong and its still because of the religion that they are doing those things. If you read your bible from cover to cover we wouldnt need to have this convo cos that will turn you into an athiest.
rex786 6 months ago
@rex786 I have read the bible numerous times from cover to cover and that is one reason why I believe. I actually research and seek answers when there is something I don't understand, I don't dismiss everything. Do you not see the double standard you impose? religious fanaticism = Religion's Fault where Athiest Murders & Genocide does not come from their beliefs. You cannot have it both ways. Either people do bad shit on their own or it is from the worldview they hold.
Jonathan2342 6 months ago
@Jonathan2342 The point is Atheism is not a belief system. I am not imposing a double standard; its just a known fact that people go to war over religion. Never ever has anybody gone to war FOR atheism, Stalin was a vegetarian does that mean he went to war because he was a vegetarian? NO. Cant you just understand that atheism is not a belief system and there is no reason what so ever why anybody would kill just for the sake of lacking belief in something theres no good reason to believe.
rex786 6 months ago
@rex786 Stalin and Mao did go to war to perpetuate an Athiest belief system. The communist system is an Athiest system and imposed athiest ideals on those groups they conquered. Conquering in the name of athiesm. Athiesm is a belief system whether you like it or not and it persecutes better than any religion. It believes that God doesn't exist, it believes that there is a naturalist explaination for everything, Regarding Stalin, he did not force people to become Veg. hi did force athiesm.
Jonathan2342 6 months ago
@Jonathan2342 All I can do at this stage is ask you to read what atheism actually means (google it). I'm an athiest and i strongly disagree with communism; watch the athiest experience on youtube and see what the hosts say about their views. Just because someone is rejecting claims about gods existence does not mean they are offering up a theory of their own. Theism is the positive belief in god so (A)theism is simply lacking such belief. This is my last word on this, nothing more i can say.
rex786 6 months ago
@rex786 And, As a Christian, I disagree with people who deny their children medical care. That is not the point. You blame the religion for actions of a few people then try to hide behind a definition. Mussolini was Fascist and Russia & China are more socialist but still promote state athiesm. It is a worldview and can even be called a religion as there is an organizational structure. " I don't know" is the lack of belief where "there is no God" is a statement of belief.
Jonathan2342 6 months ago
@Jonathan2342 I don't know is agnosticism and its a statement that concerns knowledge not belief. I'm an athiest and I will never say "there is no god" or "there are no gods" because none of us can be 100% sure. Not even Richard Dawkins has ever said that; he puts himself as a 6 on a scale of 1 to 7 (1 being 100% sure there is a god and 7 being 100% there is not). Theres a video called "lack of belief in gods" by qualiasoup. I think you should watch it. Cant hurt to hear a point of view can it?
rex786 6 months ago
@Jonathan2342 You didn't watch the video "lack of belief in gods" did you??
rex786 4 months ago
@Jonathan2342 The problem here is that children die of pure neglect. Children that would have EASILY lived if the parents had sought medical help. EASILY treatable conditions and such.
This is not a matter of morality, but of neglect because of religious indoctrination.
Sanquinity 6 months ago
@Sanquinity As stated before one example (Scientology) would be considered athiest as they don't believew in God so I guess Athiest indoctrination causes those people to die then. I am not defending the actions of some bad parents who do not bother to educate themself in their religion but the premis that religion caused those deaths, the clear allegation of the video. It would be like blaming all Athiests for what scientologists do
Jonathan2342 6 months ago
@Jonathan2342 The children in this vid specifically died because the parents chose religion over medical care. So it was religion's fault in the end. Also, scientology isn't the same as atheism. It's a thing of it's own. A category of it's own. Neither theist nor atheist. So don't group atheists with scientologists please.
Sanquinity 6 months ago
@Sanquinity They (scientologists) don't believe in God meaning they are athiest. You cannot change the definition when it doesn't work for you. It's not religion's fault as then you are holding the 5.9 billion thiests in the world accountable for the actions of a few misguided people
Jonathan2342 6 months ago
@Jonathan2342 Scientologists aren't theists, no. But they are religious. Scientology is a religion after all. There's the difference. As atheists aren't religious either. But it really depends on your definition of god. I have no doubt that in some definition or form, an alien in the Scientology 'bible', could also be seen as god.
Sanquinity 6 months ago
@Sanquinity Scientology became a religion for the sole purpose of avoiding taxes and employment standards. It is a scam & a con. Regardless of definition a god is worshipped (ascribed worth) as the ghosts or dead aliens are negative and scientology seeks to get rid of them, they would not be considered gods by any definition. As Atheism is defined as the disbelief or denial of God, Scientology is an atheist religion.
Jonathan2342 6 months ago
@Jonathan2342 I've read up on it a little. And according to the site Scientology does believe in a supreme being. A god. Not the Judean god, but still. So, I'll turn it right back to you. You even have Scientology on 'your side' of the equation. Another minus for theists.
Sanquinity 6 months ago
@Sanquinity They believe that our spirit is an immortal dead all-knowing alien ghost that was killed 10,000 years ago. The scientology apologists say that their "religion" is all-denominational meaning that it will not conflict with any religious belief which, in practice is incorrect, even by their founders own words and higher level scientologists aim to remove all "false teachings" (religion). A God, is not a ghost of a dead aliensinside the body. There is no God in scientology.
Jonathan2342 6 months ago
@Jonathan2342 Um...read their front page? It has a special section in the side bar explaining their concept of god.
Sanquinity 6 months ago
@Jonathan2342 It's a supernatural higher power, aka a god. Or are you going to claim that Zeus, Loki, Nyarlathotep etc aren't gods because they're part of polytheistic systems?
The only difference between Scientology and Christianity is the time period in which they were invented.
Kerberoz01 5 months ago
@Jonathan2342 Yeah, this comment is old, so I hope you did some research about what being an atheist really mean... A question though: do you speak from your imagination or are you playing the etymologist with "a" and "theist"?
Atheism is a position held when someone reject the evidence presented to him for a particular god or supernatural phenomenon as being unsufficient. So now you can take back your insulting little game of putting atheists and scientologists together
assalane 4 months ago
@Jonathan2342: "That is just about the stupidest video I have seen."
Then you obviously haven't seen the video showing all the children who've lost their lives due to parents denying medical care in favor of prayer.
"194 children compared to the thousands of children who die each year due to medical malpractice and mis-diagnosis"
Right, so we can just say "too bad" about those needless, pointless deaths? Horsecrap- EVEN ONE IS TOO MANY.
mikefromwa 4 months ago
@Jonathan2342: "That is just about the stupidest video I have seen."
Then you obviously haven't seen the video showing all the children who've lost their lives due to parents denying medical care in favor of prayer.
"194 children compared to the thousands of children who die each year due to medical malpractice and mis-diagnosis"
Right, so we can just say "too bad" about those needless, pointless deaths?
mikefromwa 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Jonathan2342: "That is just about the stupidest video I have seen."
Then you obviously haven't seen the video showing all the children who've lost their lives due to parents denying medical care in favor of prayer.
"194 children compared to the thousands of children who die each year due to medical malpractice and mis-diagnosis"
Right, so we can just say "too bad" about those needless, pointless deaths?
mikefromwa 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Jonathan2342: "That is just about the stupidest video I have seen."
Then you obviously haven't seen the video showing all the children who've lost their lives due to parents denying medical care in favor of prayer.
"194 children compared to the thousands of children who die each year due to medical malpractice and mis-diagnosis"
Right, so we can just say "too bad" about those needless, pointless deaths?
mikefromwa 4 months ago
Let me just say when the doctor tells you they don't know if you'll live or die there is no one to turn to not mom not dad not your spiritual leader but to GOD and only GOD and if you don't believe me there will come a day GOD forbid!
Cleatusbodean 7 months ago
@Cleatusbodean Why do Christians always point out that Science doesn't know everything? That's the point, it's supposed to progress over time as we learn more. The truth is that God doesn't help you, humanity helps you. When you're sick, you need a doctor, not God. How people cannot believe/know this is preposterous and absurd. Religion is complete insanity
TheRationalist76 7 months ago
@TheRationalist76 Listen to me sonny boy! There have been recorded incidents where doctor don't have a clue ! Patients have been told they terminal and some how survive. It is called a miracle! WHAT I DON"T UNDERSTAND IS WHY YOU WOULD WASTE YOUR PRECIOUS TIME TRYING TO CONVINCE ME THERE IS NO GOD! I you ask me I think atheist are preposterous and absurb! There will come a day when you will think of the LORD JESUS CHRIST!
Cleatusbodean 7 months ago
@Cleatusbodean Doctors can make mistakes and the human body can do miraculous things, no God involved. And you have to expect that if YOU'RE the one coming on this video posting your message about God, so i feel the need to give the opposing view, or else YouTube wouldn't be very fun, would it? Nonetheless, Atheists aren't the ones that come up to my door, preaching the "good news" about the "good Lord", when really, that is a waste of time! Get out of the dark ages, there is no God and noChrist
TheRationalist76 7 months ago
@TheRationalist76 Docs can and do make mistakes mister! Who are you to tell me no god involved? You can post anything you want BUT I have no need for someone to preach to me that there ain't no god! No athiest do not go door to door they just blog on youtube. It's a waste of time for you ! You get your head outta of the dark ages! Sorry I DO love GOD and not you or your hoard of non believers will change that! PING!
Cleatusbodean 7 months ago
@Cleatusbodean There weren't many Atheists during the Dark Ages, and those who were, were persecuted by the Oh-so-great Church. So no, in no way am i stuck in the Dark Ages. My point was to say that you're stuck in an age of irrationality and a time when religion dominated, causing one of the worst points in European History. And it is not a waste of time. The internet is where people go to ask these questions because society condemns it. Atheism is on the rise my friend, and for a reason
TheRationalist76 7 months ago
@Cleatusbodean And if you don't want to hear the Truth about your God, get off the internet. This is where people come to discus such topics, and if you don't want to talk about it, don't comment on the video. And to reply to your "Docs can and do make mistakes mister!", of course they do. But Doctors have done more for the benefit of the health of the Human race than religion ever has or can do. People aren't healed because you pray for them, they're healed because someone knows the condition
TheRationalist76 7 months ago
@TheRationalist76 Well look at you talking about truth and taking over the internet! Man you moved in pretty fast there slick! Look truth is you don't the mysteries of life and niether do I but they are there wheather you want to see them or not they happen. As far as discussing I thought I was playing that game with you. You got everything down to a science damn you good boyeeee! I'm not talking against doctors but when they can't help.......all you got is GOD!
Cleatusbodean 7 months ago
@Cleatusbodean So you replace the gap of not knowing things by adding in fairy tales made by dehydrated Jews in the desert? Wow, impressive. And no, you don't just have God, he doesn't exist. You have sheer probability or natural phenomenon, no "God" involved "boyeeee". And you can continue to attempt to put down Atheism because we are on the internet, when who else is here right now arguing with me? Oh yeah, you. But nothing new, a Theist being a complete hypocrite, following your history well
TheRationalist76 7 months ago
@TheRationalist76 This is the reason why I get tired of half witted atheist. you bore me with the schtuff over and over again. You fight for your so called intellect and wit. Where as I fight for JESUS and GOD above. You have nothing to prove but yourselves ( and that ain't much). I in turn protect my LORD and GOD! You people are all belligerent and obnoxious and obviously self centered! NEXT!
Cleatusbodean 7 months ago
@Cleatusbodean You're a fool. I fight for humanity, not a made up sky God who sends people to eternal life in clouds or burning forever. I fight to give freedom to humanity while you continue to enslave people with your totalitarian "God". I fight to help the poor and sick, because there is no afterlife, and they are in need of help, and as my fellow human, i must help them. You, my sir, are the belligerent one. I am attempting to speak my opinion and share my views and YOU are the one attacking
TheRationalist76 7 months ago
@TheRationalist76 And your my hero! You sound like some kina mighty mouse or something HA! You insult the LORD you insult ME! Now show some respect and you'll get like wise. Hey buddy we're all humans here. My line work deals with the sick and poor don't feel like the super justice lone ranger here ok.
Cleatusbodean 7 months ago
@Cleatusbodean I don't care if it insults you. I could care less if it hurts your feelings that i insult your fairy tales. I just want a society filled with rational and reasonable minds that allow for helping one another. Religion builds a society on irrationality and no proof, which leads to dumb action. And i'm glad you help the poor and sick, good. We all should be doing it. Not because of God, but because of what's right. Respect is given where respect is due, and you are not due of it
TheRationalist76 7 months ago
@TheRationalist76 SO what do you want? you're barking about being civil then you turn around and act like a nut job ! Go take your meds and leave me alone! You want a society and REASONABLE MINDS thats a joke! GET OUTTA MY LIFE ALREADY I"M SICK OF THIS!!!
Cleatusbodean 7 months ago
@Cleatusbodean We're on the internet...you're the one that CHOOSE to come on to this Atheist video and comment endorsing your religion. I'm not being uncivil, I'm just speaking from the mind on a place where free speech is encouraged (which the Church did not allow for for centuries). Now you can yell how you want me to get out of your life, when once again, who comes up to doors converting? Who came on this video? See because you can't be happy knowing you believe, everyone else has to also
TheRationalist76 7 months ago
@TheRationalist76 YOUR DONE WHACK JOB! What you say doesn't matter any more! Youtube put these stupid videos on my recommended list. And so I put my statement, after all that what it's about right ! You said it yourself or did you forget that too! So go create your nazi genocide and have fun doing it! Geeze! Now I understand why GOD brought on the flood! And it'll happen again!
Cleatusbodean 7 months ago
@Cleatusbodean What kind of deluded world do you live in in which you believe that i am a "whack job"? I never said your initial statement was correct, i said there is no God, and that yes, sometimes doctors don't know everything. Surprised? Next, there was no flood. There is no evidence for their ever being a mass flood of the Earth less than 6000 years ago. Last, i don't understand how you could call me a Nazi, most Nazis were Christian. 98.5% to be exact. cont.
TheRationalist76 7 months ago
@Cleatusbodean Nonetheless, i am a leftist if anything. Yet i find it very disturbing that you would ever call me a Nazi believing in Genocide, when i have clearly stated my intent was to help all of humanity. But then again, shouldn't i be turning the tables on you? God has killed more than Hitler and the Nazi Regime ever could imagine. Now in reality, Christianity (through the years) is closer to Nazism then my believes. Jesus calls the Jews the spawn of Satan, which led to mass murders
TheRationalist76 7 months ago
@TheRationalist76 You have all the traits of an atheist alright! Your views are warped son! I a bit touched! You want a perfect world where people are reasonable ? YOU should learn to accept people the way they are that includes christens. If you are telling the truth that you serve the sick and poor(not) then amoung those sick and poor are christens. RESPECT son thats what it boils down to ! That"s the only way you will find peace in this world.
Cleatusbodean 7 months ago
@Cleatusbodean I do accept Christians, i just don't agree with what they have to say
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
-François Mari Arouet, Voltaire (a large criticizer of the Church)
I am sorry that you find it hard to believe that an Atheist doesn't help the poor, quite sad actually. Now i believe you disrespected the medical profession without your statement. God never appears to help those without doctors, does he? You are the warped one
TheRationalist76 7 months ago
@Cleatusbodean with*
And what is it that you want? See, the problem with Christians is, they can't be happy knowing they believe, everyone else has to also, right? I'm okay that you believe in God and your Holy Book, but stay out of everyone's business. You can discuss God with your friends and such and discuss him all you want, but just quit trying to get everyone else to believe it. I "pray" for a day when everyone can just love each other. We can have theoretical debate, but still tolerate
TheRationalist76 7 months ago
@TheRationalist76 Hey pay attention! look at my first statement it doesn't require and answer! Typical atheist try to turn things around! I am not push it on anybody but morons like you have to reply! You quote the bible why? You don't believe it exist right? But you're ready and willing to point out whatever you can use against me. You talk about love ? Man you ARE dangerous to people! I DON"T CARE WHAT YOU BELIEVE!!!! U PRAY TO WHAT?????
Cleatusbodean 7 months ago
@Cleatusbodean So when you post a comment on YouTube, you would rather someone not look at it and point out their opinion or disassemble what you have to say to be false? Wow, you should probably stop posting comments then. I do believe in love but i also can appreciate a theoretical debate, and i wish you could too. Why do i quote the Bible? Because you believe in it, and i would like to point out some flaws in your belief system. I'm beginning to think your page is a joke though, it's scary
TheRationalist76 7 months ago
@TheRationalist76 It didn't require an answer numbnuts! It's just a statement I made take or leave it. I'm not forcing religion on you. You're the one that took the bait. CAPICHE! You people are so paranoid it's funny to toy around with you guys. Keep it coming though you entertain me. It's interesting to read your statement . Very cynical and dark. It's a love I have for the LORD and GOD above that no one will take from me! your turn.
Cleatusbodean 7 months ago
@Cleatusbodean Well i'm glad to be a source of entertainment for you mate, yet i haven't used anything beyond rational defenses. Now you're right, it did not require a response. Yet isn't that what you wanted. I mean, you made the comment because you wanted skepticism, correct? Now it wasn't your comment that made be think your forcing religion on me, its elsewhere. It's people coming to my door trying to convert me, it's the Religion that fills my politics, cont.
TheRationalist76 7 months ago