Why Not Land Your Fokker Triplane in a Crosswind?

[ebach1]

protect your ears guys :)

hearing loss is not fun 

[aleks070777]

Rotary engine, cool replica

[4ucarlosmurphy]

The DR-1 is notorious for bad ground handling hence the "AXE HANDLES " on the bottom wing tips.

I usta fly a 1/4 scale Zeroli DR-1 with a US-41 gasser in it, it was the strangest flying R/C plane I ever flew and it cost me many a prop.

[BigWolfBoy50]

A large quantity of the French LeRhone engines were also built under contract in the US, many found there way on to air-boats, that is where the Golden Age Air Museum in Bethal got theirs for their full to scale DR1

[CSnakeV]

Modern pilots are Noobs if we compare them to WW1 pilots.

[morningstomper123]

@CSnakeV What makes you say that? A romantic view of days gone by? The secrets of flying these machines has not been lost with time. So, again, I ask you, what makes you think that WW1 pilots were, in general, superior to modern pilots? I suspect you will fail to produce a salient point.

[CSnakeV]

@morningstomper123 WW1 pilots had to fight with these planes, witch were bassically made of leather and wood, the MG was behind the propeller, so the bullets could hit the propellerm pilots didn`t had Parachutes, they could be shot down from earth (Yes, i Know that there may be special guns now that can shoot down a Jet, but biplanes could be shot down with Rifles and SMG`s) And In those days they werent computers that helped to aim against enemies like HeatSeekers and Jet pilots have parachutes

[ToreDL87]

@CSnakeV These planes werent made out of leather and wood, they were made out of canvas and wood, the first fighter aircraft with MG behind propeller was a Morane with metal plating on the propeller to deflect the bullets, not too long after the synhcronizer gear was invented. Not too many SMG`s were used in WW1, ammunition for those was scarce, they used MGs, German fighter pilots had parachutes as well, the British RFC did not as they believed the pilot would bail out from a unharmed aircraft.

[leforumdesulm]

Looking for french speaking persons to speak about ultralight replicas in this forum :

w w w . forum-ulm-ela-lsa . net

[brickman409]

LAND THE FOKKING PLANE

[Bravo21]

Ground loops in Tail draggers are not all that uncommon. It is a function of the basic design and CG, not wind.

[Arminiushoff]

What a beautiful scene!

[winterka100]

That was one mother fokker of a landing!

[Wiktormotra]

This is exactly why Fokker added little skids at the tips of the lowest wing.

[michaelpilot1000]

Best part about comments here is the overwhelming knowledge of the aircraft, pilot skills and the flying conditions of that moment at the field. I am so glad that my seat has been planted in a Real airplane, my hands have worked on my airplane and my mind is not stuck behind the safety of a computer screen writing foolish comments .

[terryjohn]

that's why they where fitted with wing skids ..

[MrWhatname]

What you see here at the end (break out to left) is a ground loop, not necessarily due to a crosswind (certainly helps). Happens to all tail draggers. Had he released the blip switch in time while applying right rudder it would [maybe!) not have broke out to the left.

Anyway good show, and thanks for posting !

[ysflightman]

A WWI aircraft with a legitimate Rotary Engine.

That's how it's done right there. :)

No wussy Radials.

[niflap]

"Wheel" landing. Shallow flare.

[Poopingbotham]

Isn't it wonderful to see a Fokker Dr1 that isn't painted red? This one's got a rotary engine, too!

[KingCrumbdenfroft]

@Poopingbotham Say, isn't that Werner Voss's paintjob on that bird? The face on the cowling looks like the one that Voss had.

[Poopingbotham]

@KingCrumbdenfroft Werner Voss's plane had lots of sky blue paint on it, I believe, though that's subject to interpretation, as there was no colour photography back then. But yes, it's supposed to be a representation of Voss' plane

[XXXblackgoatXXX]

i thought it was rlly huge rc plane lol

[xvoy2002]

Ì`m curious from a response from anyone from this club. Looking at this video it seems this plane i built from the original plans, including a rotary engine that actually rotates unlike modern rotary engines. Do clubs not update these planes to make them safer to fly, or do they just like flying the old ones for the thrill of it. Looks like a lot of fun.

[vintagepropnut]

@xvoy2002 We are dedicated to building/restoring the aircraft collection of the Pioneer Flight Museum. These are museum pieces not movie props. We want visitors to experience the authentic sight, sound motion and, yes, even the smell of these old airplanes, many of which used castor oil lube. We do sneak in a few changes that are not so obvious, such as better adhesives and paints where the payoff in durability is large.

[niksarass]

@vintagepropnut props for that. Nice work.

[KingCrumbdenfroft]

@xvoy2002 I typically lose interest and move on any time I see a replica using a radial engine when it should have a rotary.

[mutantroosta]

@xvoy2002 i think you mean radial engine mazda rx.. cars have the rotary engine

[spentacle]

@mutantroosta Wankel engines have a rotor. The rest of the engine stays still. The ORIGINAL use of Rotary engine is typically these old aircraft engines where the cylinders and prop rotate about the crankshaft. LOOK IT UP.

[mutantroosta]

@spentacle oh come on im not that dumb.. i know wankel engines have a rotor... anyone who enjoys watching mad mike in the new zealand drifting champs knows what a rotary engine is...

[ejlister]

@xvoy2002 The pilot in the video has a business making WW1 replicas, and he does them as authentically as the customer wants. Original instruments, engine, cotton fabric, etc. This particular plane was built by museum volunteers and has some modern considerations (such as the fabric), but in other ways, is very accurate to the period (rotary engine, tailskid). There are very few original or authentic ww1 planes surviving, so any ww1 plane you see today is likely to have many modern options.

[ejlister]

@xvoy2002 The pilot in the video has a business making WW1 replicas, and he does them as authentically as the customer wants. Original instruments, engine, cotton fabric, etc. This particular plane was built by museum volunteers and has some modern considerations (such as the fabric), but in other ways, is very accurate to the period (rotary engine, tailskid). There are very few original or authentic ww1 planes surviving, so any ww1 plane you see today is likely to have many modern options.

[jrcadet4]

WW1 aerodromes didn't really have runways---they were square or circular, w/ everyone taking off/ landing into the wind. They also had a ground crewman on each wingtip helping them to taxi. Evidently it was a great cardio workout; Frank Tallman and Cole Palen both interviewed a lot of those old blokes who were still hale and hearty, pumping them about their ground-handling techniques. "Vat ve used to haff", recalled one elderly German vet, "vas a LOT of accidents."

[nighthawk0077]

error 404. No crosswind found

[Sergeantsteamer]

Man...that's one BEAUTIFUL, BEAUTIFUL plane right there now.! Thumbs up for the pilot to. :)

Thanks for sharing a part of OUR History!

[ChuckH55]

Who's plans were used to build the DRI? I enjoyed the video and really like seeing something other than a Red DRI.

[Amongoeth1946]

therefor are the skids made...

[heliarche]

Is that an original or a reproduction?Anyways glad to see that both pilot and his machine are safe.And the pilot just got a little bit better.

[MrOUTMAN99]

P factor is defined as a combination of forces, differences in lift from ascending vs. descending prop LE, prop wash on the vert. stab and gyroscopic forces from the prop. I should clarify that I am talking about the gyroscopic precession of the prop & motor as the tail is lowered. As a pilot, I've experienced them all, too! The DR1 has one hell of a gyro in the prop & rotating engine, as the tail is lowered - resulting force on the aircraft swerves it to the left. google gyro precession

[MrOUTMAN99]

As follow up..still a very good landing for this aircraft! And a beautiful recreation! The skids are there for a reson, like every other aircraft part!

[MrOUTMAN99]

There is no cross wind. The windsock, it's hanging dead. Look at the controls and track on final & roll out...no crab and straight track! The pilot "wheel lands" fast - as the tail comes down, the p factor induces a swerve to the left. The massive wood prop, rotating engine, short nose...that's the result. A pilot unaware of the physics of P factor on landing. The only thing to do is go into the swerve with aileron and hope adverse yaw will help. Why never build toe in on a tail dragger.

[vintagepropnut]

@MrOUTMAN99 The day had variable, gusty winds which kept the Dr.1 grounded most of the morning. The wind can be heard in the camera microphone at the moment of landing. It is irrelevant that there was a lull minutes later as the Dr.1 taxied past the windsock. With the engine/prop essentially freewheeling when landing, no differential thrust is developed and hence no P factor. The short thick fuselage does however blank out the small rudder upon landing causing loss of rudder authority.

[WarCowboy]

@vintagepropnut

Ha, thats exactly what I was thinking when I watched the video and read the first comment before I seen you had already replied.

I have not had the chance to see one of the real deals in person, however I do have a 1/5 scale R/C version.

Its funny how my model version has the exact same characteristics with rudder loss at low speeds.

Anyhow thanks for the video, awesome piece of history!

[BigKahuna96740]

@MrOUTMAN99you are correct about the presence of gyroscopic precssion, especially with such a heavy rotating mass attached to the firewall, however this force acts 90 degrees from where it is applied and in the direction of rotation of the gyro. in this case the engine rotates clockwise from the pilots point of view. therefore the lowering of the tail would cause a rearward force on the top of the engine, rotated 90 degrees that equates to a rearward force on the RIGHT of the engine. not left.

[WailingFungus]

@MrOUTMAN99

I thought toe-in was desirable on conventional gear, and toe-out desirable for tricycle gear?

[TheBuckerJungmann]

@MrOUTMAN99

The P Factor has nothing to do with swerving to the left when the tail goes down, the gyroscopic precession does...And it will swerve right when the tail goes down, and left when the tail goes up.

For info the P Factor is the uneven thrust of an up going prop blade vs the down going prop blade when the aircraft is in a climb.

[theguy0013]

That's Voss's plane!!! =)

[tuca999]

...only we germans can land these aircrafts....

[PistolPete2]

Them Fokkers is hard to land in a strong crosswind!

[vintagepropnut]

The LeRhone engines were mostly collected in the 20's and 30's when they were practically being given away by the Army. Now, of course, they are very valuable. Many were from Thomas Morse Scouts.

[madcapromanian]

At first i thought this was a model kit. Awesome to see a real reproduction in action!

[wildswine07]

Because of it's extemely short tail moment, this thing was a ground looping bastard. It must have been really wierd to fly, also. The gyro-scopic forces of that great big wood prop attached to the rotatry engine made for weird re-actions to control inputs. I Gotta love that thing, though. Thanks so much for this wonderful replica!! Has always been one of my favorites. The pilot has big, brass ones.

[mazdarodi]

Wow great landing! Do you know what the wind speed was? Sounds like 15 kts at least! Yikes! Thanks for posting this video!

[nallepuh6969]

But that kind of tilting and wobblin' is normal if not usual when landing one of these acemakers. That's why the original dr's had those same rods at the wing tips. If something was broken during this landing, the plane is poorly built... You just can't land a plane with wheels 1,5 metres apart without some havoc. Not to mention that bumpy field.

[ctguy1955]

I ran across this video, never even saw any guns, and was wondering if Thomas the Tank engine had anything to do with front paint job. When I got down to the comments section and started reading about machine guns, I flipped out that I wasn't just reading stuff about thanks for the upload, its so nice seeing a part of history in the air, and nice things. My God people, get a life !!!!!! I would like to thank the owner of the plane and the person who took the video 4 treat

[wilhelm2ss]

@ctguy1955

Actually there are two mock up of Spanda machineguns. A person can buy mock up machineguns from aerodrome aircraft of Missouri.

I'm building a 3/4 scale Eindecker, sort of a lead machine of this Dreidecker. The reproduction machines are 600 hours of work with $15,000 of money. This machine is a full reproduction. I have no idea where he found the rotary engine, most reproductions use radials.

Vanepico's comment pissed me off. He thinks the USA is still the wild west..

[ctguy1955]

I wish you every bit of luck in your efforts to building your plane, and I hope to see your

videos on here in the future. I have a buddy in

the air force who can get you a couple of

saw machine guns for it, if you would like? I

know they wont be "classical" and of the time period, but it sure will make for some interesting comments on here!

[silverberber]

The triplane is painted in Werner Voss colors, hence the face on the cowl. He was a very good pilot. If I remember correctly at the time he was shot down he exceeded Von Ritchfen in enemy aircraft shot down.

[ctguy1955]

Thank you so very much for the information on the colors on the front of the plane. I was not familiar with the name Werner Voss and will now do research into his history.

[N7618U]

YIKES! I just peed a little.

[sylwesterp]

Jasta 2 nice

[SAMJK456]

The guns couldnt be timed WITH the propeler because this would mean that the guns could only be fired at the RPM they were timed at. Sycronising them meant that they could be fired wahtever the RMP. Pilots of ME-109s would often decrease their Propelers blade pitch and open the throttle as this gave them a higher RMP and a higher rate of fire from their machine guns. Done. Nice aeroplane. Love DR1's. Good to see its not in red too.

[redskins5605]

What a awesome plane. I would love to see one fly!

[vanepico]

Very simple but very effective idea the gun synchronisation gear!

As Guns are legal in america, do vintage aircraft guns need deactivating?

[fjb425]

Absolutely! You must have a VERY special license to even possess a machine gun, but even then NEVER on an aircraft. Most or all WWI planes have fake guns, real ones practically nonexistent these days. The WWII planes often are real but are permanently disabled and can never fire again. That's the law.

[vanepico]

Yeah i think the ones at shuttleworth are real but disabled

[ctguy1955]

FJB425. I dont know anything about the rules and regs governing ships nor aircraft as far as weapons on board.....but when it comes to owning a machine gun or silencer, its not a special licence. Its a Tax Stamp, You need a permit to carry a concealed pistol, but anyone of proper age and having a clean arrest felony record can buy shotguns or rifles or machine guns. Mounting them on things is an area I am not familiar with and each state is probably different.

[wilhelm2ss]

@vanepico

It is a 15 year prison sentence for putting a machinegun on an aircraft. It is another 15 years in jail for illegally owning a machinegun.

You're kind of ignorant and you post is one of the most stupid things I've ever read on this site.

[vanepico]

Excuse me? i have no idea what the US regulations for guns on aircraft are, and that my friend was why i was asking. I am not ignorant, i am uneducated on the regulations of US aerospace

Oh and there are a lot stupider things on youtube than i said right here...

This is getting blown way out of proportion :)

[MaTtLc2008]

used to own a nieuport 23 build

[tomar5e101]

sounds like my model RC plane :) nice video

[SpeedyNeutrino43]

This brings back memories of the '41 Stearman I owned for about 6 years...Yes I groundlooped it twice...in a crosswind...but on grass. Just put a grass stain on the lower left wing, nothing broken except my pride. With a Stearman it's not IF you'll ground loop it but WHEN you'll groundloop it. The brakes were practically non existent and no help at all.

[RoninTXBR549]

Beautiful plane... 5/5

[nz3rdsqr]

good to see one running old school with a rotary instead of radial

[itsumonihon]

must be a real bitch to fly with one of the old fashioned rotaries. totally counter intuitive control inputs on those things at low speeds.

[fsxgamer101]

i have a question, how would you shoot without shooting out the propellers, can someone help me?

[STUKAMIKAZE]

The wave is running the propeller and has a chain which is bound by a "trigger-stopper" it means, when you shoot, and the shoot will hit your own propellar, the shooting mechanism stops, and when theres no propellar on the way, it shoots automaticly. (because youre holding the trigger).

there just millisecunds between the propellar and the gunfire.

[rvateg]

Theres a mechanism that makes sure you shoot between the propellors, so If the proppellor is in the way it wont shoot.

Best to check wikipedia on it I guess.

[JediMasterKyp]

The guns were timed with the propeller.

[wngcdr1]

There was a synchronization gear, which would stop the firing of the guns, when a prop came in front of the shooting barrel.

[singleproppilot]

All German fighter planes starting with the Fokker Eindecker utilized a gear mechanism that synchronized the guns to fire in between the blades.

[Paddymcwhoop]

fantastic.

[charliepippin]

Beautiful - amazing to think this design is nearly a century old.

[whizbang47]

That's a great looking bird! A super effort and some skilled flying there! Glad you're sharing it here with all of us.

[sixmagpies]

Just glue that rudder in place...does nothing anyway.

[berkelusa]

Hickory Axe Handles off the bottom wing-tips to prevent damage right? - LOVE that plane.. -Rob

[ProudAviator]

But wouldn't it be easier to do a three-point?...

[marvinf14]

Awesome!!!!!

[tocamadera]

this engine its a big mass rottating that create a tremendous gyroscopic system ¿ AmI right? ¿ doesnt make impossible to turn the plane? ( obiously not , but...) Sorry for my poor english

[GGigabiteM]

In the air, it has a noticeable effect on the aircraft. On the ground, it has somewhat of an effect, but not nearly as pronounced as in the air.

[ToreDL87]

Yh take off`s killed some DR.1 pilots because of the sudden torque effect, the DR.1 was not the average beginner`s plane!

[ChopstickBrando]

The rotating mass effect actually HELPS turn the plane -- that is, if the turn is taken in the same direction as the engine rotation. This of course works against a turn in the opposite direction. These handling properties affected fighter tactics of the era for radial-powered aircraft. The Sopwith Camel was another design with notoriously intense engine torque -- which skilled pilots used to great advantage and which saw the end of many an unskilled pilot's career...and life!

[Quercusalba2]

That's what wingtip skids are for!

[cobrachoppergirl]

Shouldn't the DR1 be the easiest plane in the world to land in a crosswind. (1) Entire rudder turns for awesome slideslipping (2) Super low stall speed. On the bad side, you've got lots of wing lift that the wind will catch after you land and tip you like in the video if you're not heading into it.

[vintagepropnut]

Excellent rudder in a dogfight, but on ground the short, fat fuselage blocks the airflow as the tail comes down and rudder stops working. Our exceptional pilot does two wheel landings to remove any skid/slip before allowing the tail to fall He sometimes needs DOWN elevator to keep tail high until plane until it is running true and it is safe to let the tail.

[itsumonihon]

@vintagepropnut where do you guys get these ancient rotary style engines? they seem interesting but i have to admit i'd be freaked out to stand anywhere near them, vibration and what not while spinning the whole engine at 2000rpm, a bolt or nut coming off the engine would kill a guy

[canadianmaple09]

Those planes look great in the air and goofy as hell on the ground. They seem so tall because of the spacing between the wings.

[alterman156]

Thank goodness that you didn't ground loop. I have seen it happen a couple of times at the Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome.