(14 of 14) ITS WRONG TO PAY FOR SEX DEBATE - RESULTS

[GirlonFilm1969]

YES! People who get informed think it's wrong too!

[GirlonFilm1969]

It's wrong to pay for sex. There's my vote.

[Dbfisokay]

Paying, with money, for sex infers sex and a bag of sugar have similar status; both can be purchased. The question is; Is it wrong to equate sex with a bag of sugar? If yes; paying for sex is wrong. If not; paying for sex can be not-wrong. So are sex and sugar equal?

[bjerge]

@Dbfisokay it is ok to buy a bag of sugar, and thus anything unlike buying a bag of sugar is wrong?

[paulchiuk]

Puritanical rubbish..., One way or another, everyone pays for sex. What is it to be human? World-wide, the observable definition of what it is to be human is inextricably linked to what its wrong to pay for; sex, drugs, weapons, oil...Sadly, it is normal for us to exploit, pollute and destroy. We are all involved in this and the first thing we can do is to stop being mean-spirited. Both the puritans and the prostitutes could lighten up a bit and make it easier for people to get their needs met!!

[Ecdysiast96]

wow, I can't believe people changed their opinions based on any of that. Most of it was terribly off topic

[iMaDeMoN2012]

The real questions are:

when is right to have any sex?

marriage? love? horny? consenting?

when is sex not rape?

never, sex=rape

[ActaNonVerba71]

the feminists' pals fixed the results by lying and saying they were undecided before the debate. so obvious.

[Markohoppis]

Didn't you say 1 in 6 women would be raped or the victim of an attempted rape according to the DOJ? Was it 1 in 4 or 1 in 6? Come on, Did this statistic really come from the DOJ because I only found it on websites like Rainn and other advocacy sites that inflate their statistics.

I smell femprop.

[Markohoppis]

I don't try to discredit the Koss study, it is discredited. The 1 in 4 figure is false, to my knowledge the DOJ hasn't produced the 1 in 4 factoid. It is a rather absurd figure, femicunt.

[Markohoppis]

I am not aware of a study performed by the DOJ that shows the 1 in 4 women statistics, it doesn't exist?

multiquantum is a man hating troll that has many accounts including prettysallygirl, her free time is spent on Youtube harassing and stalking users such as vogter2100 (of which blocked her) and iamcuriousblue. Her favorite hobbies include spamming by copying and pasting bad studies, statistics, and quotes taken out of context in an attempt to commit ad hominems.

[multiquantumcheck]

For the motion wins, unsurprisingly.

If sanity were contagious, the world would be a better place.

[multiquantumcheck]

I must conclude from what I see here that Markohoppis is deranged and dangerous. Keep your children away from him. He also laughs at rape victims and writes that "Swedish men deserve nothing but hatred and violence".

The results of the Koss study you try to discredit were replicated with

U.S. Department of Justice research.

Fisher, B. S., Cullen, F. T. & Turner, M. G. (2000). The sexual victimization of college women (NCJ 182369). Bureau of Justice Statistics, National Institute of Justice

[multiquantumcheck]

As for research on sexual coercion:

Research shows that AT LEAST one-third of men ADMIT they would rape a woman if they could escape detection (Malamuth 1986, 1989a, 1989b; Knight & Sims-Knight 2003; Seto & Kuban 1996).

Imagined sexual aggression is the key factor predictive of actual sexual aggression (Dean & Malamuth 1997; Kenrick & Sheets 1993).

99% of U.S. rapists are men (U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics 1999).

[Markohoppis]

The Koss study has been found to be unsound due to ambiguous questions and ambiguous definitions on rape.

[Markohoppis]

Koss and her colleagues counted as victims of rape any respondent who answered "yes" to the question "Have you had sexual intercourse when you didn't want to because a man gave you alcohol or drugs?" That opened the door wide to regarding as a rape victim anyone who regretted her liaison of the previous night.

[Markohoppis]

"Koss and her colleagues counted as victims of rape any respondent who answered "yes" to the question "Have you had sexual intercourse when you didn't want to because a man gave you alcohol or drugs?" That opened the door wide to regarding as a rape victim anyone who regretted her liaison of the previous night."

[Markohoppis]

Utterly pathetic. New Zealand shows successful regulation, and the madam shows that women choose it. You'd have to be a moron to fall for these strawman tactics of trafficking myths, class bullshit, and child prostitution, button pushing to provoke emotion, and bad research that should had been discredited and challenged by the other team.

If you choose to make prostitution illegal, it will be driven underground and never regulated. Prostitution will never go away.

[sulljoh1]

I feel like it's got to be wrong to turn sex into a commodity. But it's so hard to come up with a good reason why consenting adults shouldn't be allowed to. The supporting team did a terrible job coming up with any good reasons. What s disapointing debate.

[watermelonygoodness]

How did the side for the motion win?! These people must have voted based entirely on emotion and not on logic. God bless America.

[B1ueGravey]

I'm an old gay man and I prostituted myself when I was younger. I'm glad I did it. I really enjoyed it and I put myself through school. Prostitution is better than my current job.

I have a lot of sympathy for heterosexual men. Those feminist hypocrites want men to tell them what they want to hear in order to have sex. A prostitute has more to offer them than those cold hypocrites.

[PotheadPundit]

I guess the results show that undecideds are easily swayed by emotion.

[fjfjvmvm]

The funny thing is that I agree with the proposition as long as a narrow exception is made for paraplegics and similarly troubled people. But they were also implicitly debating criminal sanctions against prostitution. Here the pro-side bemoans the woeful conditions that often produce prostitution and then advocate wiping out the one alternative many have.

Also ad hominem attacks are sometimes valid. For instance, to establish a source as untrustworthy or to elicit rightful scorn.

[fjfjvmvm]

Both of which apply to MacKinnon, who is a truly loathsome woman. She was involved in (amongst many other atrocities) the "1 in 4 women are raped" fraud. The "methodology" behind that study was asking women if they had had sex after drinking and then saying that that constituted rape.

My question then are; 1) Do you find the pro sides extended sophistry about how prostitutes never make the choice to be prostitutes offensive? Esp. where they equate voluntary prostitution with rape?

[fjfjvmvm]

2) Didn't I establish through basic logical reasoning that MacKinnon is making claims to absolute knowledge (i.e. precisely how many prostitutes enter the trade as minors) that she simply cannot have? Don't her claims to have such absolute knowledge reveal her to be at best incompetent or more likely a fraud? Do you think people that put out ludicrous frauds still merit the effort of going through their studies line by line to debunk them?

[CanadianQueer]

@fjfjvmvm The study isn't 1 in 4 women have been raped, it's 1 in 4 women have been sexually assaulted in their life time. That would include groping, grabbing, or any other form of forced or non-consentual sexual contact. Personally, I don't find that statistic unbelievable at all.

With all their talk about the abuses in prostitution, they can't deny that it earns a living, which is something a lot of women wouldn't be able to do without it.

[Markohoppis]

"The Koss study, released in 1988, became known as the Ms. Report. Here is how the Ms. Foundation characterizes the results: 'The Ms. project-the largest scientific investigation ever undertaken on the subject-revealed some disquieting statistics, including this astonishing fact: one in four female respondents had an experience that met the legal definition of rape or attempted rape.'"

[fjfjvmvm]

You're right the argument against the prop was quite weak - but the argument for the proposition was brain dead emotional drivel. Anyone who would accept it is an idiot. Claiming some establishment credentials does nothing to change their stupidity. It only shows how dumb the elite in this country can be.

BTW the pro-argument was almost nothing but anecdotes surrounded by a simulacra of objective social science in the form of surveys with self-evidently ludicrous methodologies.

[fjfjvmvm]

The idea that a researcher could establish that it is a "fact" that 75% (or whatever the number given was) of prostitutes started as children is absurd. They can report that that is what is said the surveys they take.

The survey sample is obviously totally skewed towards the most dysfunctional prostitutes. But more to the point these especially troubled prostitutes know the answer MacKinnon et al want. They know how to elicit the maximum amount of sympathy. In all likelihood they know the

[fjfjvmvm]

lies to tell themselves in order to rationalize their own behavior. So if they say that were forced into prostitution when they were 10 it may be true and sadly it no doubt sometimes is. But it is also no doubt sometimes invented in order to gain sympathy and provided MacKinnon and her ilk with the answers they want.

It is this type of idiotic anti-scientific methods that had MacKinnon championing that ludicrous survey claiming 1 in 4 women are raped at some time. They're frauds and charla

[tailgunner2]

Normally, I simply post comments, but replaying to an existing comment would pose a greater chance of a response. It was mentioned in an earlier segment the example of the "19 year old drafted to fight in Europe" plus, "Those who don't have time for a woman". I happen to fit both catergories. I am a construction worker, that is also in the military, and attend night school. I do not have the time nor energy to persue a relationship. What other recourse do I have but to hire a woman's time?

[bighitter42]

Agreed.

[bighitter42]

I'm not convinced that it's reprehensible behavior. And I don't think there was any collaboration.

Perhaps I just think they were wrong.

[bighitter42]

Favoritism. Rooting for the team you want to win.

There's no incentive to lie for anonymous polls regarding drug abuse, sex, and so forth either but it happens all the time.

[Ironzealot7531]

what a stupid audience

I can't believe they were actually moved by the ludacris assertions of the side favoring the motion. Assertions supported by nothing other than feminist ideology.

*sigh*

this is why western civilization as doomed, we are moved more by sentiment than reason

[Dakej]

Also, the woman dismissed the question about whether prostitution minus abuse and slavery would be alright by saying that is only true in 3% of cases. She should have answered for those 3% of cases. This is not about whether prostitution is always right or wrong, it's about whether it is inherently wrong.

[Trikkie87]

@Dakej And thus you must look at the cases that contain the most relevant information. Something that only counts for 3% doesnt weigh as heavily as something that counts for 97%.

[Dakej]

The side arguing that it is wrong basically established that abuse is wrong, not that the act of prostitution itself is wrong. I also noticed the lack of discussion about male prostitutes, who I would imagine have less psychological fallout from the act (although I could be wrong).

[leggytv]

The debate got hijacked into a discussion of exploitation an victimization. However, the real question of 'is it wrong to pay for sex when prostitutes have a choice' never got answered.

[jill198751]

@leggytv you are so stupid... I guess you didn't really pay attention to the entire debate! There is no "when prostitutes have a choice".... they have been arguing that "prostitutes have never had a REAL choice" !!

Even if there are 5% at the top of the prostitute population pyramid who have all the economic, ethnic and social privileges, it is wrong to pay for sex because the institution of prostitute institution needs to be abolished in order to protect the 95% who are very vulnerable.

[DelinquentBilly]

@jill198751 I personally know prostitutes and yes, most have a choice in the US

[Trikkie87]

@DelinquentBilly I qoute: "In the US 92% of women engaged in prostitution said they wanted to leave prostitution, but couldn't because they lack basic human services such as a home, job training, health care, counseling and treatment for drug or alcohol addiction."

Yeah sure, most prostitues have a choice. Keep believing that.

[DelinquentBilly]

@Trikkie87 Way to site a source 

[DelinquentBilly]

@Trikkie87 "Some of the nicest men I've ever met were my clients. We must move beyond cartoonish depictions of villainous, lustful men victimizing vulnerable women." - Charlotte Shane - Why I'm Happy I Became a Prostitute

[Tuckercrew]

@DelinquentBilly yeah, but she is a minority.Duh.

[DelinquentBilly]

@Tuckercrew Insightful, intelligent, well researched comment. Kudos. I'm sure you know what you're talking about and lack any bias

[Hogbeast6]

They way this debate went down, with the emphasis on prostitution, it was almost as if they were arguing whether it is wrong to CHARGE for sex, instead of whether its wrong to pay for sex.

[WurmimSturm]

Clearly Opposition won. They got 25% to change their opinion towards opposition, while the proposition managed to lose 4% of their initial supporters.

[knowledge198405]

you got it backwards...for the motion won

[creepiestdani]

2/2

Uncoerced prostitution when at the limit of subsistence is not much of a choice really. It only becomes a choice when one can earn a decent living by regular means. So I've distinguished between three categories of prostitutes: those coerced into prostitution, those uncoerced but at the limit of subsistence, and those uncoerced who have a genuine choice in the matter. I'm very curios what percentage of women there is in each category.

[didles123]

@creepiestdani How about you replace prostitution with labor. Many people do not enjoy labor but they must do it to make ends meet. Prostitution is just another form of labor. There are in fact much worse forms of labor than prostitution. Anyone who is poor can be put in a bad situation where they have to do a job they don't like. If such would justify the abolition of prostitution, then I don't see how it wouldn't justify the abolition of all low-skill labor.

[DelinquentBilly]

@didles123 I've been trying to point that out too

[creepiestdani]

1/2

I think there's an important distinction to be made between coerced and uncoerced prostitution, of which the former does indeed imply the utter lack of choice. Uncoerced prostitution is that which one chooses at her own volition. But what kind of choice are we talking about? As I see it, a choice between getting a regular job and earning a certain amount of money in a certain amount of time, or prostituting oneself and earning more money, with less work, in a less amount of time.

[bighitter42]

Feminazis cheering. :(

I always question how many people vote honestly pre-debate.

[ActaNonVerba71]

@bighitter42 exactly. feminiists and deception are synonymous. it's just everyone is afraid to say it cause 1) women don't care cause feminists don't hurt them (directly anyways) and 2) men don't wanna lose their jobs feminists are evil