This is what religion is: a bunch of evil doers... They take votes of poverty and chastity and have you seen any real poverty and chastity in them? I've never seen it myself. If I stole an chalice from my city's cathedral and sold it in the black market I could make a decent sum to feed my family for an entire year or even more! And that's from a petty city's cathedral, think about if we took a chalice from the Vatican? The altar alone, from any church, could be thousands of USD...
@akissy ... and then all these stories about the Magdalene Asylum's and pedophile priests and now nuns.... I say we should vanish religion from such a prominent position in our society, and take all their gold and riches to be used for what they are supposed to be used!! Why the need for three story temples that could make a great hospital, school or secular orphanage? And all the money invested in the paintings, marbles and shit like that? There's kids dying every day cause of hunger...
Of course the cover up was to do with the heirarchy of the church! But the ABUSERS were fully responsible for their own actions. Rape is not a 'punishment' for sinners, it is the act of a diseased mind. But when that diseased mind is that of a priest the church cannot be held responsible for that persons actions!
You look at any abuser, they will find a position of trust in order to abuse their victim. In Ireland (and in the Catholic religion) the priest was held in very high esteem.
@LisaKee73 The church can be held responsible when it had a lot to do with shaping that person's life and beliefs. Have a read of Karen Armstrong's book 'Through The Narrow Gate'. Upon entering a convent, a novitiate was systematically dehumanised, made to live in almost total silence, hardly any normal interaction with other people. Starved of affection or close contact of any kind. Taught that almost every normal thought or action was a sin! These teenagers had to come to terms with (cont)
@boc1953 I've read 'Through The Narrow Gate' & yes, the dehumanisation of those women who chose to become nuns was horrifying. However, those men & women who followed their 'calling' always had the option to leave. They were not placed in those institutions by 'parents' who would rather their kids were abused than bring shame upon their families. Try reading 'The Light In The Window' by June Goulding & tell me the abuse dished out by those nuns was anything other than their choice.
@LisaKee73 (cont) the knowledge that they would never have children of their own and were punished with draconian methods for the slightest 'sin'. Particularly taught that any kind of sexual thoughts, never mind actions, were the worst of all sins! Even vanity was a sin!These were teenagers of the 60's. Imagine how much worse it was in the 40's, following WWII. Then add that the novice nuns were mostly uneducated and from a harsh childhood by today's standards and you have a recipe for disaster!
@boc1953 Those women knew prior to entering a convent that they would be childless, be stripped of anything that was considered vain and live a life of solitude and contemplation - that was the hole point!
So how does being taught that sexual thoughts were a sin make them think that the sexual and physical abuse of these women was right? If a priest is taught that sex outside of marriage is a sin then why would he rape a young girl. Surely he would then be as guilty as his victim?
@LisaKee73 (cont) A recipe that the Catholic church knew resulted in terrible abuses yet it did NOTHING to change or intervene on behalf of the victims, nuns, priests or those in their care! It was not until Vatican II that ANY light began to enter the dark catacombs of this organisation and change has happened so slowly that these abuses still continue to this day and will into the future. Now that it has become a public disgrace, the church is FORCED to change! But NOT of it's own volition!
I agree, the church must be held responsible for the abuse they covered up! I have never denied that. the point I am making is that, whilst these people used religion and the church as an excuse for their abuse, the fault MUST lie with them primarily. being educated in a Catholic school I am fully aware of how these archaic beliefs are drummed into you. But to wilfully abuse someone because you interpret their actions as a sin in first and foremost a CHOICE.
@LisaKee73 (cont) These unmarried pregnant girls were treated horrendously, at least in part, because the nuns had never known a normal relationship with a man and had been taught that sexual contact outside of marriage was one of the worst mortal sins imaginable. Like all religions, sex is taboo and everything to do with it is a sin. To expect a man or woman to deny their own sexuality for a lifetime and remain sexually normal is ridiculous! (cont)
@LisaKee73 (cont) Eventually, the sexual urge will find an outlet, resulting in horrific abnormality and abuse! To blame the individual entirely or to say these were 'just a few rogues' is a poor excuse. You may as well say that soldiers committing atrocities under orders in war are to blame but their superiors are not! It is a philosophy and a framework that allows this kind of systemic, endemic corruption and abuse to thrive within any organisation. Representing Jesus/God? I don't think so!!
I think we agree, but our explanation of our beliefs differ! I've said that blaming an entire religion for the acts of the individuals is wrong. And obviously a soldier committing atrocities under orders is different to him/her committing those atrocities of his own free will. But when a crime is covered up then everyone involved is guilty.
If a person is inclined towards abusing vulnerable people then they will undoubtedly find a position of trust. What better than 'in God's name'
@LisaKee73 I think we agree on certain points but I hold that a large part of the reason for these people behaving in this way IS because of church doctrine. The commitment to celibacy, the deprivation of human interaction on a normal level, the solitude, the judgemental attitude all contribute to the atmosphere of detachment and lack of empathy. Add to this the fact that the nuns and priests believe it is part of god's will and they are saving souls from eternal damnation, this is the result.
If the baby had DIED would they feed it to the pigs, as well?? Fucking sick bitch nuns, I hate them so much for what they did. Why hire a nurse if you're not gonna listen to her?!
@LisaKee73 That's not true! The nuns were victims of the system set up by the catholic church, just as the workers were! When you give over your critical thinking ability to a higher power, you are at the mercy (or lack thereof) of that power! If the nuns had spoken out, they would have been excommunicated and for them, that meant an eternity in hell! They believed it was all part of god's plan because they were indoctrinated into that belief. Don't blame the nuns, blame the belief!
ABSOLUTE RUBBISH! I went to a Catholic school and not once were we ever punished in such sadistic ways.
The actions of these nuns were solely their own choice! I'm a Catholic, but I don't batter my children! Which Catholic Bible states that a woman who get's pregnant outside of marriage, or a woman who is raped, or a woman who is abused BY PRIESTS AND NUNS should be condemned as mad and sent to an asylum??
These sadistic bastards had a choice! No nun ever abused me, why is that??
@LisaKee73 How old are you? Maybe you are from a different generation to these people? Obviously not all people in the care of catholic nuns or priests were abused. What I am saying is that religion in general and catholicism in Ireland particularly was much more powerful than it is now. Most of these people came from poor backgrounds and the Irish catholic church ruled! The whole of society was much more under it's control. What do you think would have happened to any nun who spoke out? (cont)
Did you know that the 'inmates' of the laundries were not allowed to be buried on consecrated ground? they were deemed unfit, they were paid to rest in the institution grounds. Their headstones said "Pennant". They weren't even afforded dignity in death. Institutionalised, beaten, humiliated, abused, ridiculed and abandoned because of archaic beliefs.
Myra Hindley, who murdered children, and Ted Bundy, multiple murderer and rapist were both given full Christian funerals. So so wrong
@LisaKee73 (cont) The catholic church protects itself, first and foremost.They would not have let such a scandal out and it would not be public knowledge today, if the church had not lost it's strong grip on the society.This only came out because of pressure from outside the church!Not from any soul searching or action by the hierarchy of the church. If they had their way,they would still be making an offer that could not be refused! Also, society at the time viewed unmarried mothers differently
I'm 39 years old. I am married to an Irish Catholic. My husband's aunt was placed in a Magdalene laundry for reasons outside of her control. She was horrifically abused, she was beaten black and blue, her head was shaved, she was paraded through the streets with rest of the 'pennants' and shamed! Her crime? She was made pregnant after she was raped by a family member. Her baby was taken away, she never saw her again. What's the saying.."Let he without sin cast the first stone"......?
(cont) Now correct me if I'm wrong. But didn't Jesus forgive Mary Magdalene for her sins? Didn't Jesus berate those who passed scorn upon her? Now why do these sanctimonious creatures feel that they can treat these women like criminals when the son of the man they praise condemned such treatment?
The simple explanation is that these nuns and priests took it upon themselves to pass judgement. They were wicked, evil people who used religion as an excuse for their sadism and abuse
@LisaKee73 So are you saying that the abuse and it's cover up had nothing to do with the hierarchy of the catholic church?That these were just rogue individuals who took it upon themselves to abuse tens of thousands of people under their control or influence?This was endemic institutional abuse which was widespread throughout such places. What makes it particularly awful is that it was perpetrated by the very institution suppose to represent god on Earth. How can you not make the connection?
My point is that these 'rogue individuals' were clearly people with an agenda, and that was to dole out their own 'punishment' to those they felt had sinned.
You clearly stated in your first response that the nuns were as much the victims as the inmates!! How on earth could you think that? Not every nun was an abuser, not every priest raped the inmates. these people interpreted the Bible for their own gratification.
It's like saying every muslim is a terrorist. Not true either
@LisaKee73 These people were not 'rogue individuals'. There were thousands of them! Yes they interpreted the bible for their own ends, but isn't that what all religious people do? I stand by what I said earlier. What do you think would have happened to any priest or nun who spoke out or challenged their superiors? Some did I'm sure and paid a price for it! The hierarchy of the church knew about the abuse and could have stopped it but chose not to. Some of the abusers with high connections (cont)
@LisaKee73 (cont) within the catholic church are being protected by the vatican still! Probably because they can implicate Ratzinger himself in the cover up! I don't suggest all priests and nuns were abusers. Only some of them were, but the bishops and upward covered it up and allowed it to continue and thrive, as they still do to this day and into the future! The unchallenged power of the church is the real culprit here and left to it's own solutions, the truth would still be covered up!
@boc1953 blame the belief is also ridiculous. The "belief" has nothing to do with it, otherwise this would be an exclusive phenomenon in an otherwise sane world. Look at footbinding in china. Nobody NOBODY oversaw that. It was a massive headless blunder.. a perpetual public works project with no face. Mothers just kept the tradition going because it's what their mothers had taught them. There was no rule that it had to be done but mothers wouldn't choose unbound girls for their sons.
@boc1953 it had nothing to do with footbinding as a belief. Everything is a belief but not everything causes massive abuse on a wide scale. You have to take a lot into account to find somewhere to throw a stone in a case like this. Economy, education, whether there is political or social instability, whether there is famine or plenty. In a country experiencing difficulties, unfairness abounds and groups are marginalized, regardless of belief or lack of.
@ChenStylish Footbinding was handed down through generations, like many traditions. Religious indoctrination is the same in that it is lovingly perpetuated with the best of intentions and with a sincere belief that it is a virtue. In fact it is not a force for good in our world. Faith is not a virtue any more than footbinding is. I have agreed with you on the effect of education, economy etc but this was a time in Ireland when the church could have done so much good for society but didn't!
This is what religion is: a bunch of evil doers... They take votes of poverty and chastity and have you seen any real poverty and chastity in them? I've never seen it myself. If I stole an chalice from my city's cathedral and sold it in the black market I could make a decent sum to feed my family for an entire year or even more! And that's from a petty city's cathedral, think about if we took a chalice from the Vatican? The altar alone, from any church, could be thousands of USD...
akissy 3 months ago
@akissy ... and then all these stories about the Magdalene Asylum's and pedophile priests and now nuns.... I say we should vanish religion from such a prominent position in our society, and take all their gold and riches to be used for what they are supposed to be used!! Why the need for three story temples that could make a great hospital, school or secular orphanage? And all the money invested in the paintings, marbles and shit like that? There's kids dying every day cause of hunger...
akissy 3 months ago
@akissy ppl dying on the streets because of the extreme cold or the extreme heat... ugh... it all makes me so angry... ¬¬** /rant
akissy 3 months ago
Of course the cover up was to do with the heirarchy of the church! But the ABUSERS were fully responsible for their own actions. Rape is not a 'punishment' for sinners, it is the act of a diseased mind. But when that diseased mind is that of a priest the church cannot be held responsible for that persons actions!
You look at any abuser, they will find a position of trust in order to abuse their victim. In Ireland (and in the Catholic religion) the priest was held in very high esteem.
LisaKee73 3 months ago
@LisaKee73 The church can be held responsible when it had a lot to do with shaping that person's life and beliefs. Have a read of Karen Armstrong's book 'Through The Narrow Gate'. Upon entering a convent, a novitiate was systematically dehumanised, made to live in almost total silence, hardly any normal interaction with other people. Starved of affection or close contact of any kind. Taught that almost every normal thought or action was a sin! These teenagers had to come to terms with (cont)
boc1953 3 months ago
@boc1953 I've read 'Through The Narrow Gate' & yes, the dehumanisation of those women who chose to become nuns was horrifying. However, those men & women who followed their 'calling' always had the option to leave. They were not placed in those institutions by 'parents' who would rather their kids were abused than bring shame upon their families. Try reading 'The Light In The Window' by June Goulding & tell me the abuse dished out by those nuns was anything other than their choice.
LisaKee73 3 months ago
@LisaKee73 (cont) the knowledge that they would never have children of their own and were punished with draconian methods for the slightest 'sin'. Particularly taught that any kind of sexual thoughts, never mind actions, were the worst of all sins! Even vanity was a sin!These were teenagers of the 60's. Imagine how much worse it was in the 40's, following WWII. Then add that the novice nuns were mostly uneducated and from a harsh childhood by today's standards and you have a recipe for disaster!
boc1953 3 months ago
@boc1953 Those women knew prior to entering a convent that they would be childless, be stripped of anything that was considered vain and live a life of solitude and contemplation - that was the hole point!
So how does being taught that sexual thoughts were a sin make them think that the sexual and physical abuse of these women was right? If a priest is taught that sex outside of marriage is a sin then why would he rape a young girl. Surely he would then be as guilty as his victim?
LisaKee73 3 months ago
@LisaKee73 (cont) A recipe that the Catholic church knew resulted in terrible abuses yet it did NOTHING to change or intervene on behalf of the victims, nuns, priests or those in their care! It was not until Vatican II that ANY light began to enter the dark catacombs of this organisation and change has happened so slowly that these abuses still continue to this day and will into the future. Now that it has become a public disgrace, the church is FORCED to change! But NOT of it's own volition!
boc1953 3 months ago
@boc1953
I agree, the church must be held responsible for the abuse they covered up! I have never denied that. the point I am making is that, whilst these people used religion and the church as an excuse for their abuse, the fault MUST lie with them primarily. being educated in a Catholic school I am fully aware of how these archaic beliefs are drummed into you. But to wilfully abuse someone because you interpret their actions as a sin in first and foremost a CHOICE.
LisaKee73 3 months ago
@LisaKee73 (cont) These unmarried pregnant girls were treated horrendously, at least in part, because the nuns had never known a normal relationship with a man and had been taught that sexual contact outside of marriage was one of the worst mortal sins imaginable. Like all religions, sex is taboo and everything to do with it is a sin. To expect a man or woman to deny their own sexuality for a lifetime and remain sexually normal is ridiculous! (cont)
boc1953 3 months ago
@LisaKee73 (cont) Eventually, the sexual urge will find an outlet, resulting in horrific abnormality and abuse! To blame the individual entirely or to say these were 'just a few rogues' is a poor excuse. You may as well say that soldiers committing atrocities under orders in war are to blame but their superiors are not! It is a philosophy and a framework that allows this kind of systemic, endemic corruption and abuse to thrive within any organisation. Representing Jesus/God? I don't think so!!
boc1953 3 months ago
@boc1953
I think we agree, but our explanation of our beliefs differ! I've said that blaming an entire religion for the acts of the individuals is wrong. And obviously a soldier committing atrocities under orders is different to him/her committing those atrocities of his own free will. But when a crime is covered up then everyone involved is guilty.
If a person is inclined towards abusing vulnerable people then they will undoubtedly find a position of trust. What better than 'in God's name'
LisaKee73 3 months ago
@LisaKee73 I think we agree on certain points but I hold that a large part of the reason for these people behaving in this way IS because of church doctrine. The commitment to celibacy, the deprivation of human interaction on a normal level, the solitude, the judgemental attitude all contribute to the atmosphere of detachment and lack of empathy. Add to this the fact that the nuns and priests believe it is part of god's will and they are saving souls from eternal damnation, this is the result.
boc1953 3 months ago
If the baby had DIED would they feed it to the pigs, as well?? Fucking sick bitch nuns, I hate them so much for what they did. Why hire a nurse if you're not gonna listen to her?!
SmellyCatSally 4 months ago
These nuns had no calling from God. They were simply sadists who found a place where they could inflict cruelty and abuse with fear of retribution.
They'll burn in hell
LisaKee73 4 months ago 10
@LisaKee73 That's not true! The nuns were victims of the system set up by the catholic church, just as the workers were! When you give over your critical thinking ability to a higher power, you are at the mercy (or lack thereof) of that power! If the nuns had spoken out, they would have been excommunicated and for them, that meant an eternity in hell! They believed it was all part of god's plan because they were indoctrinated into that belief. Don't blame the nuns, blame the belief!
boc1953 4 months ago
@boc1953
ABSOLUTE RUBBISH! I went to a Catholic school and not once were we ever punished in such sadistic ways.
The actions of these nuns were solely their own choice! I'm a Catholic, but I don't batter my children! Which Catholic Bible states that a woman who get's pregnant outside of marriage, or a woman who is raped, or a woman who is abused BY PRIESTS AND NUNS should be condemned as mad and sent to an asylum??
These sadistic bastards had a choice! No nun ever abused me, why is that??
LisaKee73 4 months ago
@LisaKee73 How old are you? Maybe you are from a different generation to these people? Obviously not all people in the care of catholic nuns or priests were abused. What I am saying is that religion in general and catholicism in Ireland particularly was much more powerful than it is now. Most of these people came from poor backgrounds and the Irish catholic church ruled! The whole of society was much more under it's control. What do you think would have happened to any nun who spoke out? (cont)
boc1953 3 months ago
@boc1953
Did you know that the 'inmates' of the laundries were not allowed to be buried on consecrated ground? they were deemed unfit, they were paid to rest in the institution grounds. Their headstones said "Pennant". They weren't even afforded dignity in death. Institutionalised, beaten, humiliated, abused, ridiculed and abandoned because of archaic beliefs.
Myra Hindley, who murdered children, and Ted Bundy, multiple murderer and rapist were both given full Christian funerals. So so wrong
LisaKee73 3 months ago
@LisaKee73 (cont) The catholic church protects itself, first and foremost.They would not have let such a scandal out and it would not be public knowledge today, if the church had not lost it's strong grip on the society.This only came out because of pressure from outside the church!Not from any soul searching or action by the hierarchy of the church. If they had their way,they would still be making an offer that could not be refused! Also, society at the time viewed unmarried mothers differently
boc1953 3 months ago
@boc1953
I'm 39 years old. I am married to an Irish Catholic. My husband's aunt was placed in a Magdalene laundry for reasons outside of her control. She was horrifically abused, she was beaten black and blue, her head was shaved, she was paraded through the streets with rest of the 'pennants' and shamed! Her crime? She was made pregnant after she was raped by a family member. Her baby was taken away, she never saw her again. What's the saying.."Let he without sin cast the first stone"......?
LisaKee73 3 months ago
@boc1953
(cont) Now correct me if I'm wrong. But didn't Jesus forgive Mary Magdalene for her sins? Didn't Jesus berate those who passed scorn upon her? Now why do these sanctimonious creatures feel that they can treat these women like criminals when the son of the man they praise condemned such treatment?
The simple explanation is that these nuns and priests took it upon themselves to pass judgement. They were wicked, evil people who used religion as an excuse for their sadism and abuse
LisaKee73 3 months ago
@LisaKee73 So are you saying that the abuse and it's cover up had nothing to do with the hierarchy of the catholic church?That these were just rogue individuals who took it upon themselves to abuse tens of thousands of people under their control or influence?This was endemic institutional abuse which was widespread throughout such places. What makes it particularly awful is that it was perpetrated by the very institution suppose to represent god on Earth. How can you not make the connection?
boc1953 3 months ago
@boc1953
My point is that these 'rogue individuals' were clearly people with an agenda, and that was to dole out their own 'punishment' to those they felt had sinned.
You clearly stated in your first response that the nuns were as much the victims as the inmates!! How on earth could you think that? Not every nun was an abuser, not every priest raped the inmates. these people interpreted the Bible for their own gratification.
It's like saying every muslim is a terrorist. Not true either
LisaKee73 3 months ago
@LisaKee73 These people were not 'rogue individuals'. There were thousands of them! Yes they interpreted the bible for their own ends, but isn't that what all religious people do? I stand by what I said earlier. What do you think would have happened to any priest or nun who spoke out or challenged their superiors? Some did I'm sure and paid a price for it! The hierarchy of the church knew about the abuse and could have stopped it but chose not to. Some of the abusers with high connections (cont)
boc1953 3 months ago
@LisaKee73 (cont) within the catholic church are being protected by the vatican still! Probably because they can implicate Ratzinger himself in the cover up! I don't suggest all priests and nuns were abusers. Only some of them were, but the bishops and upward covered it up and allowed it to continue and thrive, as they still do to this day and into the future! The unchallenged power of the church is the real culprit here and left to it's own solutions, the truth would still be covered up!
boc1953 3 months ago
@boc1953 blame the belief is also ridiculous. The "belief" has nothing to do with it, otherwise this would be an exclusive phenomenon in an otherwise sane world. Look at footbinding in china. Nobody NOBODY oversaw that. It was a massive headless blunder.. a perpetual public works project with no face. Mothers just kept the tradition going because it's what their mothers had taught them. There was no rule that it had to be done but mothers wouldn't choose unbound girls for their sons.
ChenStylish 3 months ago
@boc1953 it had nothing to do with footbinding as a belief. Everything is a belief but not everything causes massive abuse on a wide scale. You have to take a lot into account to find somewhere to throw a stone in a case like this. Economy, education, whether there is political or social instability, whether there is famine or plenty. In a country experiencing difficulties, unfairness abounds and groups are marginalized, regardless of belief or lack of.
ChenStylish 3 months ago
@ChenStylish Footbinding was handed down through generations, like many traditions. Religious indoctrination is the same in that it is lovingly perpetuated with the best of intentions and with a sincere belief that it is a virtue. In fact it is not a force for good in our world. Faith is not a virtue any more than footbinding is. I have agreed with you on the effect of education, economy etc but this was a time in Ireland when the church could have done so much good for society but didn't!
boc1953 3 months ago
Read the book "The Light In The Window".
It's written by June Goulding who was a midwife in the Magdalene laundries.
Heartbreaking stuff
LisaKee73 4 months ago
That nun looks awfully young to be so evil :|
GraceMartini 5 months ago
omg fuck you cunt she's having a baby! Dude, i've SEEN women in labour. I'm surprised that nun didn't die of blunt force trauma..
groovylocks 8 months ago
no guilt worse than guilt for something that wasn't your fault..
groovylocks 8 months ago 5