We Make No Pretence - An Anarcha-Feminist Critique

[edtastic]

Feminist can't be anarchist because they are obsessed with controlling other men which can only be done through the state. If men are free your agenda would be uninforcable and you would have to rely on free people making their own choices which is clearly the last thing you want. Feminist rely on other men to get their way, but free men won't oppress themselves to so women can feel good about themselves.  Women would have to rely on their own abilities instead of male coddling and support.

[TommyLongstockings]

@edtastic If you are assuming that change can only happen through the state, then that makes YOU the non-anarchist. Anarcha-feminists are anarchists exactly because we want change to happen from the bottom up, NOT through the state. In fact, we view the state as an inherently patriarchal institution. And mind you, feminism is NOT about female control, in spite of what you might think, but about an equal power balance between all people regardless of sex, gender, race, class, etc.

[TommyLongstockings]

@edtastic Your opinions are clearly based on some very elaborate misconceptions.I recommend reading Peggy Kornegger's essay 'Anarchism: The Feminist Connection'. It should be freely available online.

[edtastic]

@TommyLongstockings None of the things you speak of make women cattle, they are jobs women choose to do in trade for other things, you are only complaining because you think it's yucky which makes you a immature judgmental prude. Nobody needs to care about your petty feelings so get over yourself and your moralizing.

[TommyLongstockings]

@edtastic I don't think it is yucky, and you assuming that that is my position makes you the immature and judgmental one. I am not against the sex, but against the power imbalance that capitalism brings to sexual relationships. There is nothing yucky about sex and there is nothing yucky about a woman, who sells herself for money. My beef is not with sex or with sex workers, but with the people and the system, who take advantage of both. If you like being a sex worker, then I won't stop you!

[MartyredxMaiden]

Great video! What power! This inspired me alot when I read about Rote Zora on RANCOM blog. Very cool! I want to start a feminist art&writers collective that focuses on improving women's self confidence by endorsing body and self acceptance, and thus leading to higher confidence and higher chance of standing up for herself and being active and intelligent and influencial. Good luck RZ! I will follow your activity.

[DoctressJulia]

@TommyLongstockings THIS, A MILLION TIMES. THANK YOU. I wish I could hug you.

[HorrorHiro]

I'm behind Anarcha Feminism 110% but I still have yet to see any distinctively Anarchist Feminists and vice versa bring up solutions to this "issue in the Anarchist movement". Now I believe that all Anarchist are inherently Feminist (because all Anarchist inherently believe in human rights). But what kind of "issue" is this? And what exactly is the proposed solution? Is this an issue of encouragement? Is this an issue of recognition? Is it an issue of patriarchy(no)?

[a2tis]

@TommyLongstockings

prostitution and pornography are not institutions and do not treat women or men like cattle. these types of activity/work/business are not uniform. exploitation is possible there like anywhere else but not unavoidable.

[TommyLongstockings]

@a2tis Because such things as prostitution and mainstream pornography are bound within a capitalist framework, they are by their very nature exploitative. Capitalism = Exploitation.

[a2tis]

@TommyLongstockings

is there any activity which a person can get paid/retributed for that is not exploitation?

[TommyLongstockings]

@a2tis You write "paid/retributed" as if it's the same thing!?!

[a2tis]

@TommyLongstockings

ok, sorry, i misused word retribution.

lets say you do work and you get food for it, or you do work and you get money for which you buy food. can you answer both questions: is there such an activity for which you get food and its not exploitation? and is there an activity for which you get money and its not exploitation?

[jk1423]

Excellent video, I support you all the way... I almost v0m!t3d when I saw that ultra-sexist anarchist magazine cover! Da*m...

[ola6861]

feminazi bullshit...

[ThePintsizeslasher]

Is it sexist to compliment someone's smile? in what way? I'm not being antagonistic, I really don't know, new to feminism.

[DoctressJulia]

@ThePintsizeslasher Yes, it is. You are buying into the patriarchal idea that women are public property, and exist only for you to look at and be pleased by. We aren't, and we DON'T. Get it?

[ULFHEDNNIR]

@Ilikenumen What stopping them is also what make you gave to girls advice. It's Patriarchy .

[ULFHEDNNIR]

@crossoldman Anomie dos not equal Anarchy (order without) power. You should read a bit more on a subject before commenting, it's just a suggestion. 

[ULFHEDNNIR]

We are socially constructed, Anarchist ideas promote gender equality but Anarchists are individuals who are also socially construct by this society. Their a kind of star system in all group and for a majority of those group you will find many males ready to be the spokesperson and few females. We males are socially made to control, and female are socially construct to serve. At least in the Anarchists groups tend to be more open to self-criticism. Tend to be not always are....

[crossoldman]

Under true anarchy men get all the women they want, young ones too.

[Ilikenuman]

If more women wanna get involved in the anarchist movements then whos stopping them? I personally think emmo goldman was a brilliant writer and i loved her critique of soviet russia

[DoctressJulia]

@Ilikenuman MEN are stopping them, with threats and actual acts of violence.

[Ilikenuman]

@DoctressJulia

why would any anarchist want to stop people from joining a movement thats small and fragmented enough as it is?

[dubified89]

If women aren't participating and stepping up to the plate in the anarchist movement, couldn't it actually be their fault?

[knowthingman]

"be careful what you wish for, you just might get it"

have you ever been to a region of the world which is without government or effective authority? have you ever seen how women fare under conditions of lawlessness? just remember its the same gov you hate that allows you to slap a man and if he hits you back the policeMAN will take him to jail for you if you call :)

[juegas]

What are women complaining about again?

[orcgoat]

Anarchist Conference? any one else spot the irony in that?

[DeathBringer9000]

all organization of any kind can be considered opressive if you look at it hard enough. but without organization, humanity never would have made it out of the trees.

[ButherLi55ett]

Good vid, points made very well. Linked from Ian Bone blog comment.

[ThePythagoran]

wow...little suggestion, if you want to sway this status quo...how to put it... say something useful you stupid bitch

[BillTheWaterDrinker]

Women are only good at two things: takin a dick and makin a baby.

[zammmerjammer]

@BillTheWaterDrinker Jealous?

[jdugmar]

we have this sort of patronizing way to go about it'- 'lets let the female of our group speak so we don't come off as sexist". even though its not directly stated that way, that's what happens. Theres alot of subtle intricate forms of machismo we never barley recognize. No offense to serious anarchist who do think about these things, im also guilty of this shit.

[jdugmar]

This video makes sense. Ive been in and out of anarchist collectives for a long time and have definitely noticed (as a male) the sort of machismo "tough guy" attitude that persist within radical circles. there seems to be an underlying (romanticized) theme of having men dressed in black confronting the state. Even in its desire to engender equitable roles between gender/sexes,

[DoctressJulia]

@jdugmar What 'desire'? NEVER SEEN IT. That's BS. Men want to preserve the patriarchy, in whatever form they can. This hinges on KEEPING WOMEN ENSLAVED AS THE SEX CLASS.

[jdugmar]

@DoctressJulia I guess "stated desire" would have made more sense? But I do think there are collectives of anarchist where there are individuals who are genuinely concerned about patriarchy and really do try to understand it. Though I guess its hard to judge because men (a lot of the time) will act in ways that are oppressive cause its just so natural and than you can never quite tell if they were listening or not.

[edtastic]

@jdugmar Feminist act in a way that's oppressive by constantly telling men what to do. You hate their sexuality, you hate their masculinity, you hate the strength of their voice and even the fact external genitalia makes rape possible. Let's be honest it is a man hating agenda and free men have no reason to support feminist. Gender equality on the other hand can be had without the stupidity of trying to destroy male power and influence as a whole.

[edtastic]

@DoctressJulia Women are no more slaves than the men in society. You only know how to pity yourself and have empathy only for women. What kind of entitled arrogant fool would demand men to support of those they seek to subjugate. Your ideology is no better than the oppressive state it would replace because you would form it to make men behave in the service of women alone without regard to what male prefences might be.

[HiAdrian]

I don't see how Anarchy and Female-Rights can go together. Unless you have a very different, dare i say, romanticized view of nature.

[DuffmanIRL]

@HiAdrian: What a ridiculous thing to say. Anarchism and Female Liberation are inseperable. Anarchism is impossible without feminism.

[HiAdrian]

@DuffmannIRL: How do you define Anarchism then; is it not a self-organizing, voluntary system of individuals?

Female-Rights, Human-Rights, Animals-Rights, are political movements that require a hierarchical structure to enforce them.

I'm not arguing that these couldn't come about spontaneously (though human history hints otherwise), but any kind of "Rights" require a considerable control structure.

[DuffmanIRL]

You are saying that good behaviour needs to be imposed by an external authority, that without control people will not respect each other.

That is just not true, it resembles the argument that without the police to regulate my behaviour I would immediately go out and murder people at will.

Behavioural control is something that comes from within, it is shaped by past experiences and interactions. External authority does little to control delinquency, take prisons as an example, they don't work.

[visionontv]

really good points! and as far as my personal experience goes often the authority infringes those rights that they should protect!

[DuffmanIRL]

Authorities are more often than not an obstacle to progress as they are static hierarchies with an interest in keeping the current order intact.

Meaningful progress only comes from democratic organisations who not only challenge visible oppression but also subtle internal attitudes.

Its not enough to say that we are anarchists so feminism is automatically covered. We have to take a look at ourselves and make sure we are not reproducing female oppression. All of us need critical female views.

[HiAdrian]

Yes, i believe that what we call humane behavior requires a state-structure. I think that only at the very end of the bell-curve of intelligence, can primal urges be overcome. Tribalism, sexism and racism are very alive, and i don't see a system being responsible for this.

I don't love my neighbor and i don't expect him to treat his wife well, though i would hope so.

As i said in my first post, i think you have a very different view of (human) nature, that leads you to your anarchist stance.

[DuffmanIRL]

I'm going to jump to the conclusion that you think people are inherently bad and I believe people are inherently good.

The fact that you think humans need to be disciplined by an external authority implies this.

Interestingly though, that same authority is a human authority and is subject to the same flaws by being human.

I convinced a friend of mine that people are bad as a result of the conditions in which they live, which in turn are caused by a system, Capitalism.

[a2tis]

@DuffmanIRL

" people are bad as a result of the conditions in which they live, which in turn are caused by a system, Capitalism" - wishful thinking that is - the facts speak otherwise: people behaved just as bad (or a lot worse) when there was no capitalism and no state - and that went on for about 95% of all homo sapiens history. states are natural product of dealing with what we are, with what evolution made us.

[DuffmanIRL]

@a2tis People are intrinsically caring and social creatures. Our very nature is hostile towards unfair social systems. A lot of the horrible shit we do to each other is a result of those systems. Some promote profit ahead of all else (capitalism, oligarchy), while some (democracy, anarchism) promote values we know are fundamental to our nature. We are capable of being selfish bastards, that's why democratic structures are built upon distrust. History shows our progress in defeating evil structrs

[a2tis]

@DuffmanIRL

people are not intrinsically caring about everyone. people care about those who participate in moving their genes into the future.

"A lot of the horrible shit we do to each other is a result of those systems." - i'll repeat myself: all the horrible shit that people do to each was happening all the way through about 150 000 years when there were none of the systems you are talking about.

[DuffmanIRL]

@a2tis We have evolved socially to become less violent and to tolerate less violence against others, the power structures we are a part of are just a destructive as ever and perpetuate violence even when the vast majority of people oppose their actions. The war in Iraq was a good example of this, a power structure overrules peoples better nature through manipulation, violence and simply being powerful enough to ignore them. If people are not inherently good, what spurred our moral advance? God?

[a2tis]

"If people are not inherently good, what spurred our moral advance? God?"

it's like asking if our ancestors were primates without civilization what spurred us becoming homo sapiens? God?

[HiAdrian]

There's a wide spectrum of people and behaviors, and clearly not all is based on the environment.

If one wants to take sides, the peaceful people need to be protected from the violent. For this, government institutions seem to be a viable tool, despite the many evident shortcomings and risks of corruption. Government by the people, for the people, the democratic ideal.

(cont.)

[HiAdrian]

A hindrance to female equality is the stronger male sex drive. This invites men to coax women into social roles and structures where they're sexually available, the "harem" is a classic emergence of this natural tendency. Only through mental developments in the past millennia, with regards to empathy and abstraction, could these primal urges be channeled.

(cont.)

[HiAdrian]

This capability varies strongly in individuals, and i think only though bio-technological progress can we reach a state in the forseeable future, where a moevement towards anarchist lifestyles is possible.

Like you i rejoice in the idea of anarchist freedom and self-determination, i don't feel at home in globalized capitalism. All i'm saying is that i don't think we're there yet, it requires a different brain.

[zammmerjammer]

@HiAdrian Bollocks. The male sex drive isn't stronger. Our society has let men get away with irresponsible sexual behaviour, lauded them for it even. Many women have very high sex drives but find hetero sex unsatisfying. How often does a hetero couple have "sex" that is over after the male cums? Female orgasms are not difficult or complicated but it's not seen as important. It is fear of female sexual power that creates repression and violence.

[HiAdrian]

@zammmerjammer If you're saying that men fear a kind of sex that they wouldn't enjoy, then ok, that could be a reasonable argument. In the realm of conventional sex practices however, the male has everything to loose, hence a reluctance to give up the status quo.

Could you give me your idea of what a female kind of sexuality might look like? It has to at least resemble sexuality in the brain to justify calling it that.

I agree with you on female orgasms, not a very contrived view.

[zammmerjammer]

@HiAdrian Why wouldn't men enjoy sex that also gives their partner pleasure? Are men that selfish? Wouldn't they enjoy that MORE than having the woman pull out a copy of Newsweek to peruse until he finishes? Women all over the world have unenjoyable sex all the time, I don't think they fear it... bored by it perhaps.

I think it's the woman who has everything to lose due to the sexual double standard and the fear of STIs and pregnancy.

"Female" sexuality would be, y'know, FUN.

[HiAdrian]

@zammmerjammer So you are talking about basic physical sex, but without attention to the women's needs. Completely justified criticism; i wasn't sure whether you had a problem with penetration et al, in general.

Really, it's hard to estimate in today's times, with freely available sex-ed everywhere, how many men are still unaware about the female sex organs and the proper way to attend to them. I would assume most young couples today are quite aware of it, but that's a blind guess of course.

[zammmerjammer]

@HiAdrian Unfortunately, I think our culture is still so squeamish about sex it's still very hard for people (men & women) to talk about it openly with each other. People will brag on the subway that they got laid last night but find it hard to tell their partner what specifically turns them on.

I figure sex can and should be whatever the people involved want to do. Speaking as a woman at the end of my 20s I think lots of guys are still woefully ignorant, but so are women, unfortunately.

[HiAdrian]

@zammmerjammer

On a sidenote: It's curious that while western (hetero!) pornography appears to gravitate around the penis, japanese pornography exclusively eroticises the female body and sexual response. So while this aspect is suddenly fulfilled, it remains in the realm of objectification and power-imbalance.

[zammmerjammer]

@HiAdrian The only japanese pornography I've seen is hentai and that shit is so violent and fucked up I couldn't deal with it. It still seems very much outside in, and not so much about female pleasure & sharing pleasure as about male domination.

Unfortunately most porn makes sex look "exciting" but not very fun. Nobody ever friggin smiles. Some guy is getting a bj from two blondes but he looks angry almost. Boring!

[dubified89]

In all the Asian porn I've seen the women cry the whole time and it really sucks

[DoctressJulia]

@dubified89 STOP WATCHING IT. STOP BUYING AND CONSUMING PORN. IT HURTS WOMEN. AND YOU.

[edtastic]

@DoctressJulia Get your head out of our pants. We can watch all the porn we want and controlling women like you need to respect the freedom of others. We really don't care how it makes you feel and we don't have to. Women are not hurt by porn as much as men are hurt by evil feminist like yourself with your sick twisted views of gender. You hate male sexuality and are scared of it. Your cowardice and paranoia is your own problem. You deserve no pity, you are just hateful bigot who hates men.

[skepsis11]

@edtastic men hurt by evil feminists...really? speaking of self-"victimhood".... feminism does not ask for your "pity". please write more of such bigotry, it will only prove the point of feminists, nothing else.

[DuffmanIRL]

To respond to your points I am going to PM you as there is not enough room in the comments section.

[CrawdaddyJoe]

Viva la Third Wave!

[uglyenema]

Ok anarchy. Feminism... If you hate "the establishment" so much what do you suggest we do? As social creatures there will always be a hierarchy. I agree capitalism is flawed but it is better than the present alternatives. If you dont like it maybe you should come up with a better idea. I am down for equality but this anarchy shit is juvenile.

[aewester]

"maybe you should come up with a better idea."

Okay...

free self-determination through the dismantling of coercive institutions and the redirecting of their resources. Nobody should have authority over me, and as a result i will participate in society as i please; NOT as i am "required", whether by necessity or mandate.

[a2tis]

@aewester

so in case someone self-determines to rape and kill me and people around me self-determines to not give a fuck about it (situation that was possible and often common in all known history of stateless societies) - my chances of survival really depends on my ability to acquire enough wealth to buy enough weaponry. state with it's compulsion system and law seems a lot more attractive.

[TommyLongstockings]

Anarcha-feminists, you rock!!!!

[peaceful0tiger]

My view of prostitution is one that feminists can probably all agree to its bad their are specific reasons why it is bad. basically it is the policy of you rent a person male or female to have sex with them with or without their will if any protections are offered it is only to not return damaged goods. Considering child prostitution the risk of STDs and other such problems its bad even if you ignore that philosophical point that I do consider it slavery.

By the way Anarchofeminism Rock on

[a2tis]

@peaceful0tiger

if prostitution is "you rent a person male or female to have sex with them with or without their will", then

housekeeping is you rent a person to clean your house with or without their will?

basketball is you rent persons to perform a game with or without their will?

etc.??

[ninjastyle6]

Trash.

[seqizz]

if the woman can't say "hey! why me!" in anarchy or in the state. What would you expect?

[Decomposingcomposer]

Yes! lets be against everything!

everything except women!

Hurray for anarcha-feminism!!! so constructive and so not hatefull at all

Hurray! :)

[worriedaboutlife]

wow the lovely friendly music fills me with confidence that these are balanced friendly and forgiving people....

[JayceThePunk]

Look at it blatantly, people treat women particularly worse because they have a different kind of p.p.. Feminism isn't just for womens. Anyone can see the repercussions of sexist society by the naked (no pun intended) eye. I see how pornography and advertisement based solely on the female body leads to sexism, but alternately, if a woman (or a man) decides to become a pornographic model for whatever reason, they should be able to. /running out of space kthnxbai

[RookhKshatriya]

In fact, men are far more political because they HAVE to be. Men have to fight to defend their interests because men bear the brunt of oppression (conscription, gendercide, homelessness & other discrimination). Women are apolitical because their essential human rights are guaranteed in the western matriarchies while oppressed men have HAD to fight to maintain their very existence. Women have little biological instinct for politics since they never needed to evolve one. That's how it is.

[peaceful0tiger]

Such bullshit save it for the machoist videos I don't plan on watching. wait was I a bit blunt I meant what I said.

[RookhKshatriya]

Men are more prominent in all political movements simply because men are more interested in politics. This is a well-demonstrated psychological fact. Women are largely interested in marrying up, painting their faces and conforming to the media. Women are also racist and right wing, further well-attested facts. Western societies are matriarchies, which is why women are shown preferential treatment by the media, law, education and everywhere else. You are just a relic from the Seventies.

[AnarchistOpposition]

On the contrary, the anarchist movement has had its female leaders, generally it has been about 70% male and 30% female, which isnt fair by any means, but it is to expected of any movement that occurs in a society such as ours where women are seen as insufficient to men. In the anarchist movement, women read the same potential as men, women are less likely to due so due to upbringing factors and social engineering, but there are still many female anarchist leaders, emma goldman for example.

[nikkicraft]

excellent critique. thank you!

[DJWelfare]

Brilliant video

Very well made,great message

Solidarity!

[NEDM77]

Get back in the kitchen you useless whores.

[typowriter]

HAHAHA!

[Immortalgrim]

LOL!