@Lebkoang2009 "You can now respond to the public" I answered your comments because you called me out. Why must reply to the public when it doesn't ask me nothing ? You can be more ill mannered because you prove again to be thoughless.
The music by WVDV is either inspired by Rudel or antiphon, or both. Whether it is at all of him is not known. Neither Rudel nor WVDV say the music is just by themselves in total. WVDV claimed nothing!!! Without claim, there is only a copy or inspiration.
And you will not read correctly. I did not say they had no notation, I said that they had no adequate notation. Neumes, for example, "are not an adequate notation.
Most of the compositions of the time have no information on timing, rhythm, or phrasing, or instrumentation. The rhythm, we can usually only be inferred from the words. Therefore not adequate notation. All we perform is pure fantasy in this regard.
@Lebkoang2009 Yes That's a stupid assertion because their notation was sufficient to be read and transcribed nowadays. More, the neumes disappeared in the 10th and 11th centuries when the stave was created by Guy d'Arezzo (see Messine notation). Neumatic notation isn't legible due to the lack of linemark for the note pitch but it had yet time note values (porrectus, scandicus, torculus,...). This imperfection was fulfilled by the invention of the first linemarks of the stave from the year 1000
@Lebkoang2009 "they had no adequate notation. Neumes, for example" I looked for the book by musicologist Mertens but i found only the book "Lierberspaare des Mittelalters" by Volker Mertens. Unfortunately this book isn't available to be consulted on Books Google. Though, in another of his book, he wrote about Hildegarde von Bingen (1098-1172). Could you explain me how today we know and can perform numerous of her works with the inadequate neumatic notation such an anonymous composer used ?
To me it does not matter who has composed the music before Perotin.
To me it does not matter whether a composer was inspired or not.
The composers before Perotin had no adequate notation options for their works. Most of the music was improvised.
What we hear today on CDS are products of our imagination. The simple melodies of the time for me are not great works of art. However, I like the music and who we play it today very much!!!
@Lebkoang2009 "The composers before Perotin had no adequate notation"
what a stupid assertion and an ignorance about medieval music history.
Of course before Perotin there were all the troubadours, trouvères composers and the Gregorian school. These musical categories knew well how to write music. The notation history began from the early 9th century and evolved progressively up to the 19th c. Who is really the retarded ?
@Lebkoang2009 "What we hear today on CDS are products of our imagination"
That's clear we could never play on the same way the music was performed originally. This would not mean medieval music isn't "great works of art". Indeed they are and it is an evidence but for you. There are a fundamental step of our musical history and its development. Now, I wonder why you spent a full time just to conclude medieval music isn't important for you ?
A few days ago I had a mind to listen to some medieval music. And I found several places on Youtube where you penetrantly acused Vogelweide a plagiarist. You did such things, I do not!
The reason why I answered, is, Walther is my favorite poet
@Lebkoang2009 "What you are doing is twisting the facts, cause and effect"
Why must I do a projection ? This isn't my theory but an explanation universally admitted all over the world because of the fact accordance. Let consult many other source not exclusively french supporting this theory.
Yes I've said on other YT videos, the "Palastinalied" melody plagiarised the Jauffré "Lanquan li jorns"'s and I'll continue to do without to be ashamed because related to the period it wasn't an insult.
@Lebkoang2009 At least, the similarity isn't on the lyrics and the poetic theme but on the melody and ilt remains undoubtfully a very close similarity between Jauffré Rudel song melody "Lanquan li jorns" and Vogelweide song melody "Palastinalied". However, despite the melody some other elements seem to indicate the WVDV song could be inspired by the Jauffré one (verses number, metrical exactly adapted to the melody rythmic caesura, ...). German musicologist Rieman noticed it first.
That is all true! I have no problem with that. It also doesn't matter wether WVDV did that or the people who made the Münstersche Fragment 100 years later.
It also doesn't matter whether Rudel was inspired by the antiphon. I never would insult them therefore as plagiators, like you did it on Youtube. The two places where i did that were a reaction on you insulting WVDV
@Lebkoang2009 Plagiarise isn't an insult ; Here is the definition you never consult "Plagiarise = Copy the work of someone and claim the authorship for its own". isn't it the case ? The insulting meaning is in the current sense or in your mind; I've told yet it was a normal practice in those times until the authorship rights creation. This melody borrowing didn't reduce WVDV merits. I don't know whether WVDV borrowed himself this melody or not but it remains a plagiary, a borrowing or a fake
@Lebkoang2009 "It also doesn't matter whether Rudel was inspired by the antiphon."
I ignore whether Jauffré could be inspired by the antiphon you told about and have no proof to do. But the fact accordance seems to indicate this couldn't be the case. Jauffré Rudel was dead when the Notre Dame School was created after the Paris Cathedral building finished and such school didn't existed during his lifetime. More the geographical and cultural differences forbad a Jauffré opportunity to know it..
@Lebkoang2009 Third, Walter Kern (Salzburg university), statements are very unprecise and aren't founded on well documented sources.
The date he gave " nach der um 1100" "around the 11th century" is very vague. "Antiphon „Ave regina coelorum“ aus der Schule von Notre Dame"
Either, it was in the early 1100, so, the Paris Cathedral Notre Dame School didn't exist yet, or it was a Notre Dame School Antiphon from the late 11th c and Jauffré couldn't knew it because he was still dead.
@Lebkoang2009 I don't know whether Vogelweide was only a poet or if his song melodies were added later. This is a highly risked estimation which is impossible to prove. First, the troubadour learnt music and poetry near the religious composers. So, it isn't abnormal their songs looked like the religious antiphons. Twice, the troubadour invented the poetical song forms (Rondeau, Virelai, ...). So, it isn't strange Jauffré or Volgelweide used those forms. Where is the proof ?
I didn't say that the troubador songs are mostly from unknown authors!
I said most "composers" of that time didn't subscribe with their name. We have countless works
from anonymous at the time before Leonin and Perotin. Both, for me, are the first serious "composers"
The music of Vogelweide is almost unknown. Only one (some sources 3) tune of him has come over. The tune to his Palästinalied was added 3 generations later!
@Lebkoang2009 You said that the main part of troubadour songs are fom unknown author because the composers didn't write their name on the score. You are absolutely wrong because at the opposite the main part of troubadour or minnesanger songs are from known composer Apparently you ignore what is a "Vida" in which troubadour themselves wrote their own biography.
@Lebkoang2009 Yes, you try to get the listener confused when you assert finally this is just a banal melody Jauffré Rudel could had compose from a tune whistled by a kid in the street. As everyone knows the kid of the street are fabulous composers, so Bach, Telemann, Pachebel, Beethoven ....used their help. You try constantly to discredit the Jauffré Rudel theory by inventing incerttain and unfounded hypothesis.
i don't think particularly it was just a fun but a way to discredit the melody importance and the merits of the composers. There were few examples of popular melodic borrowings and the main part of music is composer personnal inventions
Guillaume naquit à Champeaux près de Melun. Après avoir étudié avec Anselme de Laon, Manegold et Roscellinus, il enseigna la rhétorique, la dialectique et la théologie à l'école de la cathédrale Notre-Dame de Paris dès 1098 et dont il fut fait chanoine à partir de 1103
@blackdiamondYY I- This USA hypothetic and undemonstrated theory from 1978 is now out of validity. I suggest you better to consult german modern researches published by Christoph Effenbergen from the Dresden University, in his 2004 book "Walther Von Der Vogel weide: Palästinlied" (available in Google digitalized books). From this time researches evolved.
@blackdiamondYY II- It proves now the Palästinalied tune derived from the troubadour Jaufré Rudel song "Lanquan li jorn" but this melody yet existed in a previous form "Kalenda Maya" composed by troubadour Rimbaut de Vaqueiras at request of his master Boniface de Montferrat around 1190. Some jongleurs of Nothern France had performed this estampida at Boniface's court in Sicily.
@blackdiamondYY III- Palästinalied is the single song of WVDV to reach modern times with lyrics and music. Other of his works had kept only their lyrics. Concerning "Unter der Linden", it is a literal translation of the french song lyrics on the same theme by an anonymous trouvère "En Mai au douz tens novel" or "Salderaladon". This analogy led modern musicologists to copy the same french tune on the WVDV lyrics.
@TheFrancoGerman Yes, Palëstinalied is really a franco german song because Walter Von der Vogelweide plagiarised the melody on the french troubadour Jaufré Rudel's song "Lanquan li jorn" as he done in other of his songs (Unter der Linden / En Mai au douz tens novel)
@Lebkoang2009 This is absolutely untrue, fanciful and anachronistic. Jaufré lifetimes were: b 1113 - d 1170; The Cathedral of Paris Notre Dame building began in 1161. The earlier composition of Notre Dame School dated from 1190 (manuscrit de Saint Etienne) long after Jaufré's death. The two leaders of musical school Notre Dame de Paris were Leonin and Perotin. Their lifetimes are placed between the mid 12th and the mid 13th centuries. It neither coincided and were later Jaufré's life
@frenchiecocorico1 Das war leider etwas schlampig formuliert. Selbstverständlich kenne ich die Daten der Notre-Dame-Schule. Das Datum 1100 bezieht sich auf die Gebrauchszeit des Antiphons. In dieser Zeit war Wilhelm von Champeaux einfacher Kanoniker und Lehrer an der Domschule von Notre-Dame, dem Vorgängerbau.
Das ändert aber nichts an dem Fakt, dass die Melodie aus diesem Antiphon stammt.
@Lebkoang2009 III- However, this is an interesting hypothesis but it needs to be justified. As I said previously, some scholars assumed the "Lanquan li jorn" song melody could came from the previous song "Kalenda Maya" from an earlier troubadour of the same region Raimbaut de Vaqueiras.
@Lebkoang2009 II- Then, it's very difficult believing this assumption for an important reason. At this period the antiphonals were created by local composers only for a local use. They never had a wide circulation. Secondly Champeaux and Jauffré Rudel belonged at two dictinctive and very different civilizations. Occitanie was considered as culturally and politically independant from Northern France
What you write about on Champeaux and Rudel of their very different geographical and cultural affiliation is, the more for Walther. However, the widespreaded antiphon at that time could be the source of the simple melody.
This is to be seen by some researchers. In general, it is in this context rather inappropriate to use the word plagiarism. This is insulting.
At that time it was not unusual pick up an existing melody. No one would therefore have had a sense of wrongdoing. Most of the "composers" of the time not even write their names on their works (anonymous!). Perhaps the melody comes from a song whistled by a child on the street, heard by Rudel or other ...:-)
@Lebkoang2009 You try to get the people confused with the informations about the relationship between Jauffré Rudel and Walther Von Der Vogelweide songs. You didn't succeed to demonstrate another theory than the normal one. The current german musicologist Christoph Effenberger confirmed this theory by the study of the melodies, of the lyrics structure and the historical context. Many german,interpreters as Corvus Corax agreed this assumption because the melody similarity is evident .
@Lebkoang2009 Yes it's just a melody. So, every song is just a melody. What's the matter? Is it a proof, a reasoning or a foolish remark ? The most part of the french troubadour songs aren't from unknown authors and neither those of Walther Von Der Vogelweide or german minnesangers. So this statement is untrue. You show us an hideous crisis of chauvinism. The fame of the french troubadour is not based on this occasional borrowing. Culture is always an exchange phenomenon. Do you ignore it ?
@Lebkoang2009 There a common factor between Jauffré Rudel and Walther Von der Vogelweide despite their geographical and cultural differences, That's the Crusades where the knights of every chritan euopean nations met together and shared their culture. It was probably here Vogeweide learnt Jauffré Rudel song. In another hand, in those times, plagiarise had no the same current meaning and was widely allowed whithout any consideration to be an offence to the copyright as it's the case today.
@Lebkoang2009 I bis- So it's difficult to know what is the origin of the antiphonal you told about (place of preservation, catalog reference, ...). There are a lot of french antiphonals of this period and catholic mottetum entitled "Ave Regina Coelorum".
@Lebkoang2009 Unfortunately You don't speak french and I don't speak german; So english is our only possible language, (al meno que se habla espanol tambien). Champeaux's being didn't prove the existence of a musical school at Notre Dame de Paris Cathedral in this time. Effectively, Paris wasn't yet a great musical center such as Metz or Reims During this era, music was more a monastic job because only monasteries had scholarly composers and scribes to copy antiphonal.
@Lebkoang2009 I - Despite the fact that I couldn't speak German a word, nevertheless I understood quite right what you said thank to the Google automatic translator.
Ja, diese seltsamen Pausen zwischen den Interpreten, sind auf meiner CD nicht zu hören. Muss am Überspielen liegen! Schade, da kommt das sonst so runde Werk ein wenig ins Wackeln.
@KristNovoselik "Vergessen" wurden sie wohl nicht, da sie nicht im Zuge des "Palästinalied-Projektes" entstanden und auf entsprechender CD gelandet sind. ;) Das Video oben beschränkt sich - soweit ich das sehe - lediglich auf diese CD - und klammert damit SaMo, Qntal und InEx aus... ;)
@XwendigoX Könnte es nicht eher sein, dass dein CD-Laufwerk zwischen den Tracks ein wenig hakt? Macht meines auch. Fällt halt nur bei durchgehenden Aufnahmen auf. Spiel sie doch mal in einem normalen Player ab. Ich glaub nämlich kaum, dass bei der Aufnahme derart gepfuscht wurde.
M. van Langen hat verschiedene Projekte, rein traditionell unter dem Namen Des Teufels Lockvögel und Marcus van Langen. Unter Van Langen macht er mit Band Mittelalter-Rock.
III
You can now respond to the public. I'm interrested no longer at your answer. I'm not used to such ill-mannered people free to discuss.
Lebkoang2009 2 weeks ago
@Lebkoang2009 "You can now respond to the public" I answered your comments because you called me out. Why must reply to the public when it doesn't ask me nothing ? You can be more ill mannered because you prove again to be thoughless.
frenchiecocorico1 2 weeks ago
II
The music by WVDV is either inspired by Rudel or antiphon, or both. Whether it is at all of him is not known. Neither Rudel nor WVDV say the music is just by themselves in total. WVDV claimed nothing!!! Without claim, there is only a copy or inspiration.
You understand therefore not what is plagiarism.
Lebkoang2009 2 weeks ago
Now these are my last comments. I'll stop arguing with you, because you have no manners. Sorry, but you're a lout.
The musicologist Mertens showed the evident similarity of Rudel work with the antiphon. Google books.
bye
Lebkoang2009 2 weeks ago
@Lebkoang2009 signed
The lout of the german medieval music.
frenchiecocorico1 2 weeks ago
"Stupid assertion"!:-(
You are absolutely insulting.
And you will not read correctly. I did not say they had no notation, I said that they had no adequate notation. Neumes, for example, "are not an adequate notation.
Most of the compositions of the time have no information on timing, rhythm, or phrasing, or instrumentation. The rhythm, we can usually only be inferred from the words. Therefore not adequate notation. All we perform is pure fantasy in this regard.
Lebkoang2009 2 weeks ago
@Lebkoang2009 Yes That's a stupid assertion because their notation was sufficient to be read and transcribed nowadays. More, the neumes disappeared in the 10th and 11th centuries when the stave was created by Guy d'Arezzo (see Messine notation). Neumatic notation isn't legible due to the lack of linemark for the note pitch but it had yet time note values (porrectus, scandicus, torculus,...). This imperfection was fulfilled by the invention of the first linemarks of the stave from the year 1000
frenchiecocorico1 2 weeks ago
@Lebkoang2009 "they had no adequate notation. Neumes, for example" I looked for the book by musicologist Mertens but i found only the book "Lierberspaare des Mittelalters" by Volker Mertens. Unfortunately this book isn't available to be consulted on Books Google. Though, in another of his book, he wrote about Hildegarde von Bingen (1098-1172). Could you explain me how today we know and can perform numerous of her works with the inadequate neumatic notation such an anonymous composer used ?
frenchiecocorico1 2 weeks ago
III
Back to the Thread:
To me it does not matter who has composed the music before Perotin.
To me it does not matter whether a composer was inspired or not.
The composers before Perotin had no adequate notation options for their works. Most of the music was improvised.
What we hear today on CDS are products of our imagination. The simple melodies of the time for me are not great works of art. However, I like the music and who we play it today very much!!!
Lebkoang2009 2 weeks ago
@Lebkoang2009 "The composers before Perotin had no adequate notation"
what a stupid assertion and an ignorance about medieval music history.
Of course before Perotin there were all the troubadours, trouvères composers and the Gregorian school. These musical categories knew well how to write music. The notation history began from the early 9th century and evolved progressively up to the 19th c. Who is really the retarded ?
frenchiecocorico1 2 weeks ago
@Lebkoang2009 "What we hear today on CDS are products of our imagination"
That's clear we could never play on the same way the music was performed originally. This would not mean medieval music isn't "great works of art". Indeed they are and it is an evidence but for you. There are a fundamental step of our musical history and its development. Now, I wonder why you spent a full time just to conclude medieval music isn't important for you ?
frenchiecocorico1 2 weeks ago
II
I will explain to you what I'm doing here at all!
A few days ago I had a mind to listen to some medieval music. And I found several places on Youtube where you penetrantly acused Vogelweide a plagiarist. You did such things, I do not!
The reason why I answered, is, Walther is my favorite poet
Lebkoang2009 2 weeks ago
I
What you are doing is twisting the facts, cause and effect, on our discussion
You are doing something, what the psychologist called projection. You are trying to conduct me to insinuate and criticize what you do yourself.
Lebkoang2009 2 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Lebkoang2009 "What you are doing is twisting the facts, cause and effect"
Why must I do a projection ? This isn't my theory but an explanation universally admitted all over the world because of the fact accordance. Let consult many other source not exclusively french supporting this theory.
Yes I've said on other YT videos, the "Palastinalied" melody plagiarised the Jauffré "Lanquan li jorns"'s and I'll continue to do without to be ashamed because related to the period it wasn't an insult.
frenchiecocorico1 2 weeks ago
VI
Of course, this argument contradicts your thesis, and thus provides a simple-minded and chauvinistic comment for my part.
This thesis is just another foolisch remark of mine. Sorry for that!
Lebkoang2009 2 weeks ago
VI Fortsetzung
Der schon öfters genannte Trobador Jaufre
Rudel hat ihn für sein berühmtes Lied der „Fernminne“ (‚Lanquand li jorn son lonc en mai’,
„Wenn die Tage lange sind im Mai“) verwendet und an eine dem Reimschema nach gleiche
Kanzonenform angepasst. Walther hat somit eine Kontrafaktur veranstaltet, in der
mittelalterlichen Lyrik keine seltene Praxis. Ob er sich dabei an die Antiphon oder an Jaufre
oder an beide gehalten hat, ist nicht eindeutig zu erweisen"
Lebkoang2009 2 weeks ago
@Lebkoang2009 At least, the similarity isn't on the lyrics and the poetic theme but on the melody and ilt remains undoubtfully a very close similarity between Jauffré Rudel song melody "Lanquan li jorns" and Vogelweide song melody "Palastinalied". However, despite the melody some other elements seem to indicate the WVDV song could be inspired by the Jauffré one (verses number, metrical exactly adapted to the melody rythmic caesura, ...). German musicologist Rieman noticed it first.
frenchiecocorico1 2 weeks ago
@frenchiecocorico1
That is all true! I have no problem with that. It also doesn't matter wether WVDV did that or the people who made the Münstersche Fragment 100 years later.
It also doesn't matter whether Rudel was inspired by the antiphon. I never would insult them therefore as plagiators, like you did it on Youtube. The two places where i did that were a reaction on you insulting WVDV
Lebkoang2009 2 weeks ago
My last posting refers to the answer below!
Lebkoang2009 2 weeks ago
@Lebkoang2009 Plagiarise isn't an insult ; Here is the definition you never consult "Plagiarise = Copy the work of someone and claim the authorship for its own". isn't it the case ? The insulting meaning is in the current sense or in your mind; I've told yet it was a normal practice in those times until the authorship rights creation. This melody borrowing didn't reduce WVDV merits. I don't know whether WVDV borrowed himself this melody or not but it remains a plagiary, a borrowing or a fake
frenchiecocorico1 2 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Lebkoang2009 "It also doesn't matter whether Rudel was inspired by the antiphon."
I ignore whether Jauffré could be inspired by the antiphon you told about and have no proof to do. But the fact accordance seems to indicate this couldn't be the case. Jauffré Rudel was dead when the Notre Dame School was created after the Paris Cathedral building finished and such school didn't existed during his lifetime. More the geographical and cultural differences forbad a Jauffré opportunity to know it..
frenchiecocorico1 2 weeks ago
V
Hier ein Auszug eines Textes von Walter Kern, Universität Salzburg, bezüglich des Palästinaliedes!!
"Die Melodie ist allem Anschein nach der um 1100
entstandenen Antiphon „Ave regina coelorum“ aus der Schule von Notre Dame nachgebildet,
ein weitverbreiteter marianischer Wechselgesang...
Lebkoang2009 2 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Lebkoang2009 Third, Walter Kern (Salzburg university), statements are very unprecise and aren't founded on well documented sources.
The date he gave " nach der um 1100" "around the 11th century" is very vague. "Antiphon „Ave regina coelorum“ aus der Schule von Notre Dame"
Either, it was in the early 1100, so, the Paris Cathedral Notre Dame School didn't exist yet, or it was a Notre Dame School Antiphon from the late 11th c and Jauffré couldn't knew it because he was still dead.
frenchiecocorico1 2 weeks ago
III
I do not know whether Walter was even a real composer.
Maybe he just had a couple of tunes from him or by others, in tune with the verse structure to accompany his poems. Walther was a poet.
Lebkoang2009 2 weeks ago
@Lebkoang2009 I don't know whether Vogelweide was only a poet or if his song melodies were added later. This is a highly risked estimation which is impossible to prove. First, the troubadour learnt music and poetry near the religious composers. So, it isn't abnormal their songs looked like the religious antiphons. Twice, the troubadour invented the poetical song forms (Rondeau, Virelai, ...). So, it isn't strange Jauffré or Volgelweide used those forms. Where is the proof ?
frenchiecocorico1 2 weeks ago
II
I didn't say that the troubador songs are mostly from unknown authors!
I said most "composers" of that time didn't subscribe with their name. We have countless works
from anonymous at the time before Leonin and Perotin. Both, for me, are the first serious "composers"
The music of Vogelweide is almost unknown. Only one (some sources 3) tune of him has come over. The tune to his Palästinalied was added 3 generations later!
Lebkoang2009 2 weeks ago
@Lebkoang2009 You said that the main part of troubadour songs are fom unknown author because the composers didn't write their name on the score. You are absolutely wrong because at the opposite the main part of troubadour or minnesanger songs are from known composer Apparently you ignore what is a "Vida" in which troubadour themselves wrote their own biography.
frenchiecocorico1 2 weeks ago
Oh come on!:-(
I don't try to get people confused!
I didn't want to succeed in any demonstation!
I didn't show an hideous crisis of chauvinism! Your are insulting me! I think it is problem of yours!!
You don't read exactly!
I. unfortunately, can not find places in my last comments that would justify such an aggressive and almost insulting answer. You are very rude:-(
However I will still post some statements
Lebkoang2009 2 weeks ago
@Lebkoang2009 Yes, you try to get the listener confused when you assert finally this is just a banal melody Jauffré Rudel could had compose from a tune whistled by a kid in the street. As everyone knows the kid of the street are fabulous composers, so Bach, Telemann, Pachebel, Beethoven ....used their help. You try constantly to discredit the Jauffré Rudel theory by inventing incerttain and unfounded hypothesis.
frenchiecocorico1 2 weeks ago
@frenchiecocorico1
The whistling childwas just a fun example of how melodies can be created. This was not a statement about Rudel. Projection!
Lebkoang2009 2 weeks ago
@Lebkoang2009 "The whistling child"
i don't think particularly it was just a fun but a way to discredit the melody importance and the merits of the composers. There were few examples of popular melodic borrowings and the main part of music is composer personnal inventions
frenchiecocorico1 2 weeks ago
Wilhelm von Champeau = Guillaume de Champeaux
Wiki:
Guillaume naquit à Champeaux près de Melun. Après avoir étudié avec Anselme de Laon, Manegold et Roscellinus, il enseigna la rhétorique, la dialectique et la théologie à l'école de la cathédrale Notre-Dame de Paris dès 1098 et dont il fut fait chanoine à partir de 1103
Lebkoang2009 2 weeks ago
Not sure if anyone made a playlist of this yet, so here's one: youtube.com/playlist?list=PL519BCA6D90ADAD76
Onisuzume 6 months ago in playlist Palästinalied
Gibt es das Lied, in der Fassung, auch käuflich irgendwo?
Für hilfreiche Antworten DANK im Voraus.
Mofti2208 7 months ago
Warum haßt du ausgerechnet InExtremo vergessen???
FANinextremo 8 months ago
@FANinextremo Glaub nicht alles was du dir denkst! :)
FANinextremo 8 months ago
@blackdiamondYY I- This USA hypothetic and undemonstrated theory from 1978 is now out of validity. I suggest you better to consult german modern researches published by Christoph Effenbergen from the Dresden University, in his 2004 book "Walther Von Der Vogel weide: Palästinlied" (available in Google digitalized books). From this time researches evolved.
frenchiecocorico1 10 months ago
@blackdiamondYY II- It proves now the Palästinalied tune derived from the troubadour Jaufré Rudel song "Lanquan li jorn" but this melody yet existed in a previous form "Kalenda Maya" composed by troubadour Rimbaut de Vaqueiras at request of his master Boniface de Montferrat around 1190. Some jongleurs of Nothern France had performed this estampida at Boniface's court in Sicily.
frenchiecocorico1 10 months ago
@blackdiamondYY III- Palästinalied is the single song of WVDV to reach modern times with lyrics and music. Other of his works had kept only their lyrics. Concerning "Unter der Linden", it is a literal translation of the french song lyrics on the same theme by an anonymous trouvère "En Mai au douz tens novel" or "Salderaladon". This analogy led modern musicologists to copy the same french tune on the WVDV lyrics.
frenchiecocorico1 10 months ago
@TheFrancoGerman Yes, Palëstinalied is really a franco german song because Walter Von der Vogelweide plagiarised the melody on the french troubadour Jaufré Rudel's song "Lanquan li jorn" as he done in other of his songs (Unter der Linden / En Mai au douz tens novel)
frenchiecocorico1 11 months ago
@frenchiecocorico1 Jaufré Rudel "plagiarised" the melody on the Antiphon „Ave regina caelorum“ l'école de Notre Dame ca. 1100
Lebkoang2009 2 weeks ago
@Lebkoang2009 This is absolutely untrue, fanciful and anachronistic. Jaufré lifetimes were: b 1113 - d 1170; The Cathedral of Paris Notre Dame building began in 1161. The earlier composition of Notre Dame School dated from 1190 (manuscrit de Saint Etienne) long after Jaufré's death. The two leaders of musical school Notre Dame de Paris were Leonin and Perotin. Their lifetimes are placed between the mid 12th and the mid 13th centuries. It neither coincided and were later Jaufré's life
frenchiecocorico1 2 weeks ago
@frenchiecocorico1 Das war leider etwas schlampig formuliert. Selbstverständlich kenne ich die Daten der Notre-Dame-Schule. Das Datum 1100 bezieht sich auf die Gebrauchszeit des Antiphons. In dieser Zeit war Wilhelm von Champeaux einfacher Kanoniker und Lehrer an der Domschule von Notre-Dame, dem Vorgängerbau.
Das ändert aber nichts an dem Fakt, dass die Melodie aus diesem Antiphon stammt.
Lebkoang2009 2 weeks ago
@Lebkoang2009 III- However, this is an interesting hypothesis but it needs to be justified. As I said previously, some scholars assumed the "Lanquan li jorn" song melody could came from the previous song "Kalenda Maya" from an earlier troubadour of the same region Raimbaut de Vaqueiras.
frenchiecocorico1 2 weeks ago
@Lebkoang2009 II bis- So, it's seems very difficult to believe that Jauffré Rudel could had the opportunity to know the Notre Dame Antiphonal.
frenchiecocorico1 2 weeks ago
@Lebkoang2009 II- Then, it's very difficult believing this assumption for an important reason. At this period the antiphonals were created by local composers only for a local use. They never had a wide circulation. Secondly Champeaux and Jauffré Rudel belonged at two dictinctive and very different civilizations. Occitanie was considered as culturally and politically independant from Northern France
frenchiecocorico1 2 weeks ago
@frenchiecocorico1
What you write about on Champeaux and Rudel of their very different geographical and cultural affiliation is, the more for Walther. However, the widespreaded antiphon at that time could be the source of the simple melody.
This is to be seen by some researchers. In general, it is in this context rather inappropriate to use the word plagiarism. This is insulting.
Lebkoang2009 2 weeks ago
II
It's just a simple melody.
At that time it was not unusual pick up an existing melody. No one would therefore have had a sense of wrongdoing. Most of the "composers" of the time not even write their names on their works (anonymous!). Perhaps the melody comes from a song whistled by a child on the street, heard by Rudel or other ...:-)
Lebkoang2009 2 weeks ago
III
What is more important though!
The earliest source of Walther's Palästinalied, along!! with the melody is from the Münstersche Fragment, created about 100 years after his death!
We do not know what tune Walther even related.
We do not know how he sang his song at all, with or without music.
Wather was rather a poet than a musician.
Lebkoang2009 2 weeks ago
@Lebkoang2009 You try to get the people confused with the informations about the relationship between Jauffré Rudel and Walther Von Der Vogelweide songs. You didn't succeed to demonstrate another theory than the normal one. The current german musicologist Christoph Effenberger confirmed this theory by the study of the melodies, of the lyrics structure and the historical context. Many german,interpreters as Corvus Corax agreed this assumption because the melody similarity is evident .
frenchiecocorico1 2 weeks ago
@Lebkoang2009 Yes it's just a melody. So, every song is just a melody. What's the matter? Is it a proof, a reasoning or a foolish remark ? The most part of the french troubadour songs aren't from unknown authors and neither those of Walther Von Der Vogelweide or german minnesangers. So this statement is untrue. You show us an hideous crisis of chauvinism. The fame of the french troubadour is not based on this occasional borrowing. Culture is always an exchange phenomenon. Do you ignore it ?
frenchiecocorico1 2 weeks ago
@Lebkoang2009 There a common factor between Jauffré Rudel and Walther Von der Vogelweide despite their geographical and cultural differences, That's the Crusades where the knights of every chritan euopean nations met together and shared their culture. It was probably here Vogeweide learnt Jauffré Rudel song. In another hand, in those times, plagiarise had no the same current meaning and was widely allowed whithout any consideration to be an offence to the copyright as it's the case today.
frenchiecocorico1 2 weeks ago
@Lebkoang2009 I bis- So it's difficult to know what is the origin of the antiphonal you told about (place of preservation, catalog reference, ...). There are a lot of french antiphonals of this period and catholic mottetum entitled "Ave Regina Coelorum".
frenchiecocorico1 2 weeks ago
@Lebkoang2009 I bis - As you precised Guillem de Champeaux (1070-1121) was a theologist, a rhetorician and a bishop, not a musician.
frenchiecocorico1 2 weeks ago
@frenchiecocorico1 Dear Christian, first please excuse my bad englisch!:)
I didn't told that Champeaux was a musician. I just wanted to name a famous person to proof the existence of a school
Lebkoang2009 2 weeks ago
@Lebkoang2009 Unfortunately You don't speak french and I don't speak german; So english is our only possible language, (al meno que se habla espanol tambien). Champeaux's being didn't prove the existence of a musical school at Notre Dame de Paris Cathedral in this time. Effectively, Paris wasn't yet a great musical center such as Metz or Reims During this era, music was more a monastic job because only monasteries had scholarly composers and scribes to copy antiphonal.
frenchiecocorico1 2 weeks ago
@Lebkoang2009 I - Despite the fact that I couldn't speak German a word, nevertheless I understood quite right what you said thank to the Google automatic translator.
frenchiecocorico1 2 weeks ago
Ja, diese seltsamen Pausen zwischen den Interpreten, sind auf meiner CD nicht zu hören. Muss am Überspielen liegen! Schade, da kommt das sonst so runde Werk ein wenig ins Wackeln.
vrouwenlop 1 year ago
Du hast die Versionen von Saltatio Mortis, Qntal und In Extremo vergessen!
KristNovoselik 1 year ago
@KristNovoselik "Vergessen" wurden sie wohl nicht, da sie nicht im Zuge des "Palästinalied-Projektes" entstanden und auf entsprechender CD gelandet sind. ;) Das Video oben beschränkt sich - soweit ich das sehe - lediglich auf diese CD - und klammert damit SaMo, Qntal und InEx aus... ;)
LG
RokhMarosch 1 year ago
Irgendwie hast du Qntal vergessen
Xariarch 1 year ago
Tolle Idee, man kann schön die Interpretationsstile erkennen. Doppeldaumen :-)
hoover1945 1 year ago
@XwendigoX Könnte es nicht eher sein, dass dein CD-Laufwerk zwischen den Tracks ein wenig hakt? Macht meines auch. Fällt halt nur bei durchgehenden Aufnahmen auf. Spiel sie doch mal in einem normalen Player ab. Ich glaub nämlich kaum, dass bei der Aufnahme derart gepfuscht wurde.
Ostfriesenhasi 1 year ago
@Ostfriesenhasi Mein Fehler! Diese Unterbrechungen sind im Original natürlich nicht vorhanden. Wird wohl, wie du sagst, am Laufwerk liegen.
XwendigoX 1 year ago
Sind eigentlich diese Cuts bzw. Schnitte auch im Original? Das stört irgendwie...
AndreR241 1 year ago
@AndreR241 Würde mich jetzt auch interessieren...
Ostfriesenhasi 1 year ago
@Ostfriesenhasi Ja sind sie. Ich habe die CD so hochgeladen wie sie ist.
XwendigoX 1 year ago
Oh super, jetzt mit Untertiteln, wer wann singt. Super!
dingomusiktheater 2 years ago 8
@The Franco German
M. van Langen hat verschiedene Projekte, rein traditionell unter dem Namen Des Teufels Lockvögel und Marcus van Langen. Unter Van Langen macht er mit Band Mittelalter-Rock.
PassatPamir 2 years ago
Grüße. Der Herr heisst "van Langen".
XwendigoX 3 years ago 3
Und doch hat sich bis heute keiner gefunden, der das Preislied Walthers so schön umsetzt.
SamHawkens 3 years ago
Preislied? Ich habs immer als Propagandalied verstanden, was aber nichts an der Schönheit desselben ändert.
XwendigoX 3 years ago
Das Preislied "Ir sult sprechen willekomen". Ich habe bisher keine wirkliche Vertonung desselben gefunden.
SamHawkens 3 years ago
Das kannte ich bis jetzt noch gar nicht. Hab mir grade mal den Text durchgelesen und muss dir zustimmen. Das müsste echt mal vertont werden.
XwendigoX 3 years ago
guck mal hier bei youtube nach der band ougenweide und dann das lied "willkommen"....das müsste es sein
burkardheike 3 years ago
Das Lied von Ougenweide ist erstens nur eine Hommage an Walthers Preislied und nicht dasselbe Lied, und zweitens ist es ein neuhochdeutsches Lied.
Ich suche einfach eine Vertonung des originalen mittelhochdeutschen Textes.
Trotzdem danke für den Hinweis!
SamHawkens 3 years ago
ist mir klar dass das von walther auf neuhochdeutsch ist,aber ich finde die version von ougenweide triffts ziemlich
sind zu dem original überhaupt neumen erahlten?
burkardheike 3 years ago
GREAT! Van Langen ty!
AndreLuff666 3 years ago