@awolLDSasap I am positive that if you had done and experienced that which I have, your belief would be the same as mine. Granted, the same could be said of me when it comes to your view. I have reasons why I believe what I believe and those reasons cannot be disgarded by anyone, including you. But this debate is pointless. I was just bored when I responded to you. Sometimes I like to get into religious debates becuse it is fun but I have lost the mood for it recently.
@awolLDSasap Hmmm, you still have yet to show any evidence for all your accusations. The fact of the matter is that you cannot prove that he was a part of it just as I can't prove that he wasn't. I imagine we both have evidence to support our view. I have faith that he was a prophet of God and therefore God would not allow a prophet to do such a thing. Now my belief has come from much study, pondering, prayer, and countless personal experiences.
Brigham was not responsible, he never instructed any person commit murder. The Danites, who was disbanded by Joseph Smith have been recreated by some pretty rotten people who wish only evil for mormon but there is no evidence to support the wild stories out there, its all just pure speculation.
This tendency to cover up the dirt of leaders is seen in sufficient evidence, in the here and now, to lead an ordinary person to conclude that, in 150 years "nothing has changed", at all, in Mormon-dumb!
Case in point: when Paul H. Dunn's lying douchebag dirt came to light, guess who rushed in, and tried to cover up that dirt? ANSWER: The First Presidency, through their "broom sweep", Elder Boyd K. Packer!
Brigham Young, Blood Atonement Sermon: Journal of Discourses Vol. 3, p. 243-249 "Suppose you found your brother in bed with your wife, and put a javelin through both of them, you would be justified, and they would atone for their sins, and be received into the kingdom of God. I would at once do so in such a case; and under such circumstances, I have no wife whom I love so well that I would not put a javelin through her heart, and I would do it with clean hands".
This is a certifiably true statement, from Brigham Young, as found in The Journal of Discourses, as you have given it, here! I testify that I know your quote to be true!
Brigham Young ordered the death of the members the wagon train, 120 human beings, men, women and children. The treachery of the leaders of the church had no bounds. The "principles" of the Mormon religion were abhorrent to the population of the U.S. Their church was directly responsible for the murders of two Federal Judges in the Utah territory . President Buchanan was moving an army in their direction to bring justice to the Utah territory. To this day the Mormons honor Brigham Young??
They "watched Brigham Young like a hawk", from all the way out in Washington, D.C.
The President of the United States needed to match the strength of the Mormon Batallion, in order to ensure that when they stripped Brigham Young of his secular powers, as Governor of Utah Territory (and installed a "Gentile", in his place) that there would be no reprisals from that nefarious-bastard, "Mormon Empire Builder"!
Fox News built up Mr. Cain, because he was new, because he's black. O'Reilly said Mr. Cain couldn't win, that the GOP has promised Romney the nomination already. Fox ignored Dr. Paul completely. Now, I see Fox TEARING DOWN Mr. Cain! Build him up, just to tear him down? That's dirty of Fox. When O'Reilly comes on tv, I switch the channel to Fox Business News "Freedom Watch." to learn about the news of the day and the CONSTITUTION.
@decoy256...John D. Lee was promptly executed so Brigham could be absolved of blame. Do you really think the most powerful man in the Mountain West didn't know what was going on? What you know is what your (biased) leaders have told you. I personally spoke with Lee's great-grandaughter before she died and got the real story. Brigham mandated "no gentile would set foot in Zion" and took steps to keep it that way. Believe you me he answered God for it after his death!
@bumperstickerguy No. I'm sorry but this is incorrect. This was not ordered by any leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. This was an independent group of mormons who did this out of paranoia. The movie does not mention mormons were driven out of their previous homes because of what they believed in. An extermination of the mormons was also ordered by a governor. All of those who participated were excommunicated from the church and suffered consequences of the law.
The Mormon Church continues to immortalize Brigham Young, one of history's most base defilers to this day. The members of this sick cult should be outcasts from all the decent people of the world they infect. The doctrine of the Mormon Church is death to all Gentiles and has not changed since the lowdown treacherous massacre at Mountain Meadows in 1857
I will share a little story that I'm sure you know nothing about: In 1941 or 1942, during World War II, then Mormon Prez., Heber Grant, told the "good German & Austrian Mormons" to follow Article of Faith #12: Grant told them to "subject themselves to Hitler, and obey, honor, and sustain Hitler'". MOST of them followed and "obeyed" their stupid-ass Mormon Leader Dog: even to the point of joining the Nazi Party, as a show of LOYALTY, to rulers.
And, Briggy, the pig, went to Southern Utah, to the Mountain Meadows area, two years after the deaths of those people: and, the U.S. Corps of Engineers (or, perhaps, it was the U.S. Geological Survey team) had already found all those corpses, lying on the ground and mere skeletons, by that point, and gave them a decent burial, and put up a Christian cross, on top of the common grave.
Brigham said, "Vengeance is mine.. & I have taken some."
NO ONE was excommunicated, from the Mormon Crutch, for their part, in the Mountain Meadows Massacre! The only person to have been punished, was the adopted son of Brigham Young, himself: a man named John D. Lee, who was executed, for his part, in it. The grandfather of now-dead apostle David B. Haight (viz., Isaac O. Haight) was a captain, or other high-ranking personage, in your Mormon Legion, back then. Haight was never punished
@orlovna2 They were all in fact excommunicated. There are records of this. You can not believe every hollywood movie that comes along and every story your family or friends tell you of how mormons are awful people. We own one of the largest charities in the world, and we send more help to other countries than any other religious group in the world. Yet no one hears about this because we do not advertise ourselves and show off. I just get sick of people thinking they know something when they dont
@carsonkfranklin Yep, excommunication is punishment for murder. What are you talking about? The church brags about charity. Omiolo brags about lds charity every day here on youtube.
Your interview with that descendant of John D. Lee would make for interesting reading material. I, too, had an interview, with an interesting person: this was one of the granddaughters of Brigham Young: her father was one of BY's sons who took a plural wife (Sister Young's mother), in 1902. It seems that if you WERE somebody, you could secretly get a plural wife, after the 1890 Manifesto!
When I asked Ms. Young about her childhood, in a polygamous home, she got very sad.
Another comment: Brigham Young "needed" to live in a "compound", in Salt Lake City: he was paranoid enough to think that people were "out to get him". His home had a very high wall, all around it, and he had guards that he hired, to keep people out.
But, he didn't count on the fact that, in expressing a desire to take wife #57 (a 16-year-old girl), he set in motion events that led to his death, by poison.
It was a member of his own household that killed the bastard!
@yazooize No. You seem to think you know more than you really do. This was not ordered by any leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. This was an independent group of mormons who did this out of paranoia. The movie does not mention mormons were driven out of their previous homes because of what they believed in. An extermination of the mormons was also ordered by a governor. All of those who participated were excommunicated from the church and suffered consequences of the law
Brigham Young showed a callous disregard for the sanctity of human life, by having people like Bill Hickman, Opie Rockwell, and even Orson Hyde, as his personal (and real) henchmen who were willing to follow Briggy's orders to kill people who the latter wanted to get rid of.
(Bill Hickman tells his "memoirs", which is a tell-all confession, of sorts, in a book that was published, in the 1860s, at a time when he, Hickman, was also under indictment, by the U.S. government.)
I read the expression of this two and how they almost have the balls to tell the context of the season events. They was afraid to mention how the religious fanatics from other churches and city authorities expel Mormons from many places and kill several thousands of Mormons including women children , rape etc. rob their possessions(no body mention this on history) and finally they hide in Utah. Some members did this crime NOT the church as a whole. O'Reilly like always is partial onhis comments
Nope. Sorry. You are being fed this bullspit from your leader dogs, in the Mormon Crutch! I read the whole account of how The church membership--almost as though they were a solitary person--altogether refused to testify, at the grand-jury hearings, in 1862, and covered up any hint of wrong-doing by Brigham Young by refusing, en masse, to tell what they knew, about the event!
Even Hitler, of the ensuing century, would have been amazed at such LOYALTY, to such a "ruler", as BY.
I agree with this actor George bush is not a bad guy if we are imperialist then why did give money to the countries in world war 2 we did not want to be in the war
This church is deceiving I testify to you it is a man centered religion I was in this cult and now happy that I'm out but take my word for it look it up look at history and read the bible and book of Mormon just because they say they are Christian doesn't mean they are Christian johova witness they are not Christians but they believe Christ wasn't our savior
If Jon Voight believed George Bush was the leader of the free world (while leading an illegal invasion of Iraq), then his heart might be heavy, but his brain is very light.
Mormons were openly racist against blacks until the gov't threatened to take their tax-exempt status in 1978.
Mormon founder Joseph smith was arrested for conning people in 1826 by putting his face in his hat and pretending he could seek hidden treasure by looking at seer stones. He then 'translated' the book o'moron doing the same thing in 1827-1830.
Smith was actually secretly married to many women before he claimed an angel threatened him with a sword telling him to be a polygamist or die.
You are "partly right and partly mistaken", on some of the details.
I read the entire History of the Church (the 7-volume paperback edition), in 1978.
It is interesting that LDS church historians, in that complete work, were defending Joseph Smith's liaison with Fanny Alger (from circa 1832), as though she were one of Joe's polygamous wives, from that period of time! The "revelation on plural marriage" was recorded in 1842. So, Smith shagged Fanny for the booty, 10 years prior
@nir085 One might want to assume he knew what they were planning, but there is no evidence that he actually did. I am nothing more than a skilled attorney who can easily point out the flaws in assuming knowledge absent proof. Condemnation should be based on proof, not conjecture.
So if it wasn't "greatly encouraged," then what was it (not that I am agreeing)? I think that Young knew that he did not know who those people were, did know what was going on with his militia-men's plans, but let it play out anyway. He let a massacre happen without knowing who they travelers were! And I am not saying that Gov. Boggs and those who killed the Mormons were justified by any measured. Those men were definitely wicked and deserved punishment!
@miljo34 he had no idea what they were doing.. they did this independently.. on their own. he didn't let it happen.. they broke the law and the churches rules by doing this.. They did this on their own just as people like hitler (who was a catholic) did terrible things on their own. llewellleo is right. If you met a normal mormon family im sure you would have trouble finding terrible faults in them.. We are generally nice people..
@carsonkfranklin Ha Ha, I am a Mormon (well, technically), but the church did a lot of messed up stuff back in the day. I've looked into this quite a bit and it is very controversial meaning that there is evidence both ways. And considering Brigham's historical personality, I don't doubt it. I am actually doing my Master's thesis on religion.
When you do your master's thesis on religion, don't forget to use The Journal of Discourses, as resource material, on your treatise of your own religion: members simply cannot deny what Brigham Young said, in those volumes of material.
He was a "crackpot of the highest order": and, this is easily seen, when one diligently reads what that bastard wrote!
I, myself, "do justify Governor Boggs", of Missouri. His executive order was not an "Orkin Bug Exterminating Order". Through that executive order, the good people of Missouri were empowered to "shoot any Mormon, on sight" (without having to call in the local peace-keepers, for help). This served the purpose of exonerating citizens if they shot and killed a trouble-maker.
Mormons were justifiably expelled, from Missouri, after they formed a secret "Gadianton band", with hooded faces.
@decoy256 Correction: my understanding is that Brigham Young did not engage in the battle, but that in fact, he greatly encouraged another man to spear-head the deed. Coming from the prophet, this man put his heart into it. Young gets off scotch free.
"Greatly encouraged" is a bit of an exaggeration. Young certainly did give fiery sermons (getting driven out of numerous states can do that to a person). But there is nothing to suggest that Young ordered anyone killed, let alone women and children.
As opposed to Gov. Boggs who actually DID instruct the killing of Mormons. And it took more than 100 years to get an apology for that. At least someone paid for the deaths in the MMM... tell me, who was punished for all the dead Mormons in Illinois?
Saturn are you aware that the Church has a lay ministry? Also we are very much normal people who are not discouraged to interact with others. Concerning the movie it is not historically correct and controversial because it goes against recorded history. It tries to demonise a man who had no part to play in the massacre, in fact a man who discouraged such action.
A member of the church was there, with Brig Young, when the latter visited the place where the Baker-Fancher Party were all killed. The member heard (and later recorded) what Brigham Young said, at that place where a crude stone monument was erected.
Breed'm Young said, "Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord...and I have taken some."
(The phrase "I have taken some" is what B.Y. added, to the scripture. Clearly, this is a veiled confession.)
@orlovna2 Which member was it? What was his name?. I doubt Brigham would have made such a statement but rather its surely a product of some fiend who hates Mormons, claimed to be a Christians. but never knew what it truelly meant to be one. Those close to Brigham painted a different picture of the man, a man filled with compassion and nothing like the monster you wish him to be.
@saturnsongs Look at almost any regular mormon family.. They are polite and respective. Studies show mormons live longer than any other religious group there is.. They are Christians. Don't take word from other people who surely know nothing of the church. Read the book of mormon and pray about it. In the bible it says, "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God."
LDS Article of Faith #12 is the basis for the control-freak nature of this cult.
"We believe in being subject to kings...."
Really? WHY? If that is true, then mormons would have been good loyal subjects of King George, during the Revolutionary War, in the late 1700s, instead of champions of true liberty. (But, mormons want to HAVE IT BOTH WAYS, at the selfsame time!)
Addendum: "We believe in being subject to...mormon-church presidents...in...sustaining them (without question)."
@decoy256 Even if Young didn't tell them to do it, his fiery anti-outsider rhetoric set up conditions that made the murder of outsiders seem like the right thing to do.
@chug20 Not unlike the fiery anti-outsider rhetoric that led to LDS persecution in Missouri... again, an offense that was never apologized for until more than a century and a half later. No matter how you slice it, the Mormon leadership handled this situation better than comparable leadership of their time. Boggs was never punished.
Now, I'm not saying that this was excusable, but look at the whole context and Mormons did a fair bit better than others at the time in similar situations.
You go and read the testimony of David Whitmer, now!
Both David and John Whitmer were threatened with eviction from their own homes by "other" mormons wearing hooded faces and threatening people.
This led David Whitmer to compare this secret "Danite" group with the Gadianton (band of) robbers, from the Book of Mormon. The two Whitmers fled, and Joseph Smith approved of the Danites' actions.
If I were Boggs, I would have done the same thing: to keep the violent mormons OUT of Missouri
What kind of mormon funeral potatoes have you been eating, lately, there?
Prosecuted and excommunicated? How about EXECUTED, instead?
The only one executed for his role, in the Mountain Meadows Massacre, was Brig Young's adopted son, John D. Lee, who wrote (while in prison) that his father was using him as a scapegoat: as he was the only one put to death: while all the others went free.
(Note: In Southern Utah, J.D. Lee is a "heroe", whose town statue is there, for all to see!)
@orlovna2 Well, in the United States people are prosecuted BEFORE being executed.
I'd say that the "Mormons" have dealt with Mountain Meadows far better than, for instance, how the Catholics have dealt with the Inquisition. How many inquisitors were executed for the people they killed?
At least Brigham Young denounced the act during his lifetime and someone was executed. The Catholic church didn't denounce the Inquisition for CENTURIES.
Brigham Young did NOT denounce the Mountain Meadows Massacre! There is a ton of ancillary evidence to support this conclusion! Young never visited the site of the massacre, until the murdered people had been reduced to skeletons! NONE of the mormon militia were ordered to bury the remains of those they had killed.
The Corps of Engineers, passing through the area, gave those skeletal corpses a proper burial, and piled up a mound of stones, with a christian cross at the top.
Voight doesn't know Mormon history like he thinks he does - a reflection of the misinformation portrayed in the movie (this movie flopped horribly by the way).
Voight doesn't have to know Mormon history. The script showed how "religious fanatics used their religion as a rationalization, for murder". That's all!
What are YOU going to do? Rush in and defend (and give aid to and abet those murderers, as an accessorry after the fact?
By the way, the late Elder David B. Haight's own grandfather was part of the massacre. But, did he get punished (and executed) for his role? Also, Jacob Hamblin, and many others.
@orlovna2 Read the book of mormon then come tell me that. And yes all the members of that attack were excommunicated from the church by Brigham young.. They were also punished by law.. This was a group of mormons that acted independently.. The same as hitler, a Catholic.. There are mormon fundamentalists who are different that members of The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Later Day Saints. they are the ones who still believe in polygamy and other things. do better research before you judge us.
I love how people "forget" that the mormons were forced out of several states, hundreds were murdered, they were raped, beaten, persecuted and even had an extermination order placed on them. When they finally found a place to call their own, the US government sent an army to contain them due to lies that were spread. I'm glad people forget that because that wouldn't work.
You have been fed your pablum by leaders full of bullspit!
The U.S. President sent a whole "army" (larger than a battalion), to Utah, in preparation for taking away from Brig Young the "keys to the secular government" of Utah Territory! And, that is the SOLE reason for sending in the troops: to make sure that bastard Brigham did not order reprisals from his Mormon Battalion, at the setting up a non-Mormon governor, to replace B.Young, as leader of the territory.
It's our job to question our elected officials, and to honestly hold them accountable for their actions. The President is not above being questioned by anyone, be it a celebrity, a politician, or simply a voter. That is an UPSIDE of free speech sir, not a downside.
But, of course, you probably know that mormons believe in being subject to....presidents. How is that even possible, in a democracy (or republic)? Mormons have a king-man mentality which dictates to them to be "loyal subjects" of the crown: Obama's Crown, maybe?
@orlovna2 how lame you are to think that we would want sympathy, the church has grown not because of sympathy, of course you would not know that. It is ignorant people like yourself that ran Mormons out of every State, and persecuted them until the only way they could be left alone, was to build a state of their own. Even then, people like you could not leave them alone. You are a bigot and a self-righteous idiot, get off Youtube and do something good for your neighbor.
@orlovna2 Fact:most mormons are conservative and our beliefs are more conservative as well. Example:we are pro life and are against gay marriage.. Get your facts straight before you judge something you know nothing about.. honestly you look stupid when you say something completely false.. We do not look at it as being "loyal" to our leaders, but have faith in them. the reason you never hear of the good work mormons do in the world is because we dont take credit for it.. Cant saythat about others
@carlasue88 This was not done by our church leaders but of a separate group of mormons who did this independently.. Lets look at what the mormons do.. We are one of the worlds largest completely non profit charities. We are constantly aiding people in need in many countries. Studies show we live longer than any other religious group. Why judge mormons on actions by what a independant group of them did.. its not like people blame other churches because people like hitler (a catholic)
@Museite It would be dumb linking the two events for that reason alone, but there are other reasons, such as, y'know, they're both religious acts of terrorism on U.S.oil against innocent people who could not care less about their expanded Abrahamic crap. It is important to point out the fact that it is 9/11 because when people say "9/11" they think the Muslims alone have the potential for murder, when evangelical types (i.e. Mormons) have the same capacity if they are not put in their place
@Museite Mormon founder Joseph Smith looked at magic stones in a hat to con people, he used this same con to write the book of mormon. The records, affidavits, and other data show conclusively that in 1826 Joseph Smith was arrested, went to trial, was found guilty as an imposter in the Stowell matter of "glass-looking." It is not a matter of debate, opinion or religious preference. It is a proven historical fact. He used this same 'magic' to 'translate' the book o'moron from 1827-1830.
cont; "The charge that Joseph was known to hunt treasure with 'peep' or 'seer' stones, etc, was serious enough that Mormon scholar Francis W. Kirkham stated that if the court record could be found, it would show that the Mormon Church was false:'If any evidence had been in existence that Joseph Smith had used a seer stone for fraud and deception, four years before the Book of Mormon was printed, and this confession was in a court record, it was impossible for him to organize a restored church'
Even though you wrote your comment 10 months ago, I will add to what you said.
Joseph Smith, Junior, used the EXACT SAME BROWN STONE WITH HOLES IN IT, to "look for" buried treasure, as well as to "translate ancient writings", the year after he was arrested, for "glass-looking".
anyone that follows a religion like the mormons did in September Dawn needs to be hung on a cross while it is set on fire. I believe pple should be punished for their sins but there needs to be proof not bc of some bullshit vision someone has. The sins that pple commit that im talking about are rape, murder, etc...
Well then I guess everyone in a religion should receive the same punishment then, because all mainstream stream religions are guilty of persecuting people that did not believe in their way of thinking at some point in time.
One cannot ascribe (nor adjudicate) guilt, to a whole religion: unless murder and mayhem are (or were) "planks of the credo" of that religion. There are very few "religions of violence" (who are underpinned, by violence and hate).
Your answer is very wishy-washy. You want EVERYBODY to be guilty. That is what you want.
@orlovna2 I think you are missing the point. the point i was making is the vast majority of religions in their history aren't guilt free of violent acts to some degree. Like the old saying goes don't throw stones inside glass houses.
i highly doubt that the emigrants would have threaten the mormons, secondly pple that are extremists with their religion would go and murder pple for their religion like they did in september dawn and lastly angelina jolie needs to stay the fuck out of other pples countries and let them live their lives. People need to mind their own business when it comes to other countries.
tonyzwlu on the other hand is a rare and honest Mormon if he is being forthright, not because it agrees just with my point but it is in concert with documented truth. My personal take is that alot of Mormon persecution did not have to happen but Mormons seemed resolute to practice plural marriage AFTER the Manifesto so in essence they lied many years to the federal government.
Real common Brian Terrill for a Mormon to pick on a christian when it threatens the church or fellow Mormons, funny how in Ensign Mormons portrays that Joseph is translating the Book of Mormon under candle light with the Golden plates next to it, but truth is he had a chocolate colored rock he looked at in a hat he called the Urim Thummin, i learned Mormons only love truth when it is suiting their personal or church or Josephs benefit. As you men worshippers say "Praise to the MAN".
Nobody points out that those innocent Christians going through Utah were making death threats to the Mormons as they moved their wagon train through Utah. Just ironic. This guys knows more on the facts of this innocent wagon train of Christians than he knows his daughter.
More accurately: The leader of the Fancher party told the mormons that he would tell the Clifornia government to attack the mormons from the west. The mormons were being threatened by an attack from the east by the federal government. The reason the Fanchers made this threat is Brigham Young told the church members they were not to do business with outsiders. And according to 2 of Brigham Young's wives and his neice, he did order the massacre.
I am a Mormon and I think this films brings a dot of the truth of the Mountains Meddows, I like it because there are so many events that happened in out church that are not published by our religion.
I am extremelly sorry for the loss the world had in 1957, 120 lives are matchless and I am deeply sorry for those who survived and had to live with what the mormons suffered for more than 20 years in the hand of those who jugded the mormons and whom never who judged those who killed the mormons
BoyMixer, I'm right there with you. Grew up in the SLC area not as a Mormon, and I know more about their history than so many of those in the LDS faith do. Mountain Meadows is a fun one to discuss (in a very respectful and educational manner because of the misinformation often taught about it...even in public school)
There IS ONLY ONE JESUS; The JESUS of The BIBLE. The Jesus of the Jehovahs Witnesses was tortured on a STAKE, with ONE nail driven through both hands, over his head. The mormon Jesus is a POLYGAMIST, from Adam God having sex with Virgin Mary. NEITHER PREACH the CROSS. 1Corin1:18"For Preaching of The CROSS is to them that PERISH, FOOLISHNESS, but to US that are SAVED, it is the POWER of GOD.Eph2:8"For by GRACE are you SAVED through FAITH; & NOT of YOURSELVES. It's The GIFT of GOD...NOT BY WORKS
A mormon that was VERY well versed in lds HISTORY, ADMITTED to me, '...Yes, i KNOW what you're saying is TRUE.. I KNOW that joseph smith is a FALSE PROPHET.. BUT, I just can't BELIEVE that GOD could send ANYONE to HELL, that LEADS A CLEAN LIFE." The PROBLEM with that, is that "ALL have SINNED", and "By the WORKS of the LAW, shall NO flesh be JUSTIFIED..Gal2:16,Rom3:23. JESUS PAID for our SINS on the CROSS, because there was NO other WAY, for US to get to Heaven. We're SAVED by GRACE, NOT WORKS
George Bush is to 911/WTC what Brigham Young was to 911/MMM. With the exception B. Young had more Direct of a hand in MMM than G. Bush. 911 was in inside job and a media job. we were fed false video. this is provable. The mormons also were very good at spreading a lie about innocent people.
people need to get into the whole story! We were being killed and pushed from state to state and we had a militia to protect ourselves and this event occured so we did not use religion to justify murdering anyone!
The Massacre was done because of a the militia of Ceder City believed it was "divine justice" for the murder of Parley P. Pratt by a husband of one of Pratt's "wives".Top that with the fact that many in southern Utah where abit on the "Fundamental" side (Same as it is today. ever been to Hilldale. I have, YIKES).
You had a powderkeg that went off killing 120 innocent Americans in the name of god . I grew up around Mormons (even FLDS Morons) and know their history better then I really should.
Yeah Obama is the Anti-Christ you are just blinded by your ignorace and lds propaganda. A black man is your master thats and you are his servent. He is living the good life thanks to your tax money. Lds did not give blacks the pristhood now the dude is your master.
Yeah I am the racist? The white american mormons are the racist that think that Jesus visted america back in the day and all the laminaites and negros where cursed by god! The book of mormon with its white all powerfull dudes in row boat who reached america is a hero comic book hahahahah!
Actually there were black men who held the priesthood way back in the day. Joseph Smith saw past racism. He was on a whole nother level then some of his followers. But there were others who did bring slaves with them on there journey. And I say some not all, because there were some that were not racist and treated the blacks the same as the white members. It was until after Joseph Smith death that the priesthood was taken away. But you what, God is gonna have it out with them for what they did
Prove it, no facts mormons where racist like most of america at the time but don't bull shit me and god has nothing to do in this world with justice! He would of had Hitler have a heart atack but he just looked on like he looks on all the injustice in the world! God is not great
"God" isn't going to have anything out with anybody unless it's in their mind! "God" is imaginary, a straw man created by humans to make themselves more important.
Brigham Young was hundreds of miles away. Explain to me how BY knew everything. This was before cars, planes, and trains. The logistics just don't make sense.
I am so amazed at how you people literally believe everything you are spoon fed by tv or movies...how do you make it through life...I can see how you would go about trying to kill whatever holywood says to kill..or do what they say..are you robots...think for yourself...people make mistakes...these people did...but that doesnt convict everyone who is a member of that religion...people are people...so get a grip and try to be more CHRIST LIKE...that should be your goal..
with all that..name one person from any religion that you know of that is perfect...I dont think you can name one...only the Savior Jesus Christ was perfect..He lives...the Savior lives...now...Holywood...would have you believe lies...and mitt romney was running for pres. then..they wanted him out of the way..so...they attacked his religion..also...BIG LOVE.. suddenly came out..cant you see what is going on..make you hate mitt..so you vote for someone else..it worked.obama won.holywoods choice
as a matter of fact the leader then had a search party to find who was coming and found it was a wagon train of reg people and sent a message to let the wagon train go through..it never got there..one man in that town took over who wasnt a good person ..and drove the people in that town to do this..when they realized what they did..they did try to cover it up..because of the persecution that they had already encountered..so much for religious freedom..
boy do I hear bigotry here..why dont you go get your guns and kill all mormons...is that what its coming to..it happened before..an extermination order was put out by our own gov ...even though we have freedom of religion..and utah wasnt a state then..so..the people in that tiny town went crazy when they heard a militia was sent out to exterminate them..many mormons had already been murdered..men women and children..it was done before the leader did find out..
there needs to be a new crusade..........against the mormons.............the pope could endorse military action againsrt these heretics..........salt lake city 2009 = jerusalem, 1099.
we need a new godfrey of boullion to lead the true christians against the mormon heretics........
I just viewed "September Dawn." The very sad thing about it is that Brigham Young knew EVERYTHING that happened in HIS territory and bragged about it. He was an American Moses....problem: He seized on an opportunity to lead a group of people who were inherently good....but leaderless when Jos .Smith died. Mormons will never really account for what happened in that massacre and other mishaps. They have simply invested too much of their lives to deal honestly with the past. Yes, it is sad.
That is what made me so mad about this event. It is questionable whether he ordered the attack, but he covered it up and bragged about the 120 murders. It is sicking.
man, some of you guys need to get a hobby or something. Look at all the good the church and its members, and leaders do every day. Talk about something you know. It's just too easy to tear something down that you think you know about. WHO ARE YOU TO SPEAK ABOUT THE CHURCH? Talk about something you know, like Dungeons and Dragons, or chat rooms, or whatever you might actually know about. I love people like you - a "know-it-all" that's got something to prove. Sweet!
so, just because you dont like the fact that some people have a negative opinion about a religion started by a schizophrenic man, you think we are not allowed to voice that opinion because you do not agree with it? typical mormon response is to cry persecution and stomp their feet when someone someone doesnt buy into their false religion and magic underwear
I like how GodLovedjosmith keeps cutting/pasting the same crap onto here. I invite all of you to go se his "evidence". It's a real hoot! Looks like Dr. Nibley couldn't find anyone but other mormons to back up his claims that his little rag is true. Real scientists looked at it and laughed their asses off. Way to perpetuate the lies godlovedjosmith! Way to perpetuate the lie.
Dr. Hugh Nibley commenting on our research (Nov 7, 2003), "...After this, those who challenge the Book of Mormon will have some heavy explaining to do."
jefflindsay . com
fairlds . org
All the new evidence pointing to geography and physical evidence found since 2003 makes the Smithsonian Institutes Statement of 1996 about obsolete.
All organized religion has to be subject to the rational mind. Not in terms of what you believe about God(s) but what your level of participation is to be and what you are asked to give up.
Mormons have a pretty rocky start but then again the Jews committed genocide in Canaan and the Christians committed pograms across Europe.
Not only is that not true, it is down right mean and disrespectful. No matter what I thought about you or your religion, I would never disrespect you like that.
The movie is good but nevertheless very unchristlike to Mormons who ever since been so persecuted and denied justice.Leaders of Missouri has admitted though.Complete and fair investigation should have been done first.Unrighteous relay of information is not pro human and above all not a Christian practice.We should be peacemakers and treat each other as real people regardless of religion, race etc. In the end we can't deny God's wisdom on the judgment day.Pray for the truth
Um...fully half the continental United States was seized by force from Mexico. Most of the rest was seized by force from the Native Tribes who called it home. Within the last 25 years, the USA has invaded Panama, the former Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Iraq (twice) and others. Likewise nearly half the military budget of all of planet Earth right now is that of the United States alone.
At the least, the claim is NOT insane. It can pretty easily be defended.
Why don't they do a movie about the Haun's mill massacre, or how the mormons were driven barefoot in the middle of winter out of Nauvoo, Illinois, and all the terrible things that were done to the mormons in early church history by people who professed to be ChristianS?
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If that history were written it would be ugly for all the players. it would expose the occult murders of people. not just Mormon, or Methodist,etc. an honest history would show ALL players at JS murder,MMM, P. Pratt and more, were FREEMASONS> all of 'em. it is a dark deep game. it wouldnt surprize me if B. Young was involved in JS death. regardless, ALL this history is Systematic FREEMASONRY
because no one feels bad for a group of religious nuts who molest children and oppress women. They just want them gone. Mormons are one of the worst things ever crapped out of our country's bowels. We should expose them for what they are. Liars. Cheaters. Oppressors. Charlatans.
@awolLDSasap shove another one in your gob and shut the fuck up that will do it fucking dumbass pig snort snort IMFAO
saltnpeppa10 1 month ago
@saltnpeppa10 What exactly are you hiding from, a brain? Grow up saltpeter. Stop playing with yourself.
awolLDSasap 1 month ago
@awolLDSasap and what are you hiding from u fat ass prick? cos ur a fat pig stop eating all the pies hahahahahaha u larder fat ass
saltnpeppa10 1 month ago
make sure you wipe your fucking dirty mouth after eating all the pies you fat prick haha
saltnpeppa10 1 month ago
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awolLDSasap 1 month ago
@awolLDSasap yeah I got one and u sit on yours u fat prick
saltnpeppa10 1 month ago
@awolLDSasap I am positive that if you had done and experienced that which I have, your belief would be the same as mine. Granted, the same could be said of me when it comes to your view. I have reasons why I believe what I believe and those reasons cannot be disgarded by anyone, including you. But this debate is pointless. I was just bored when I responded to you. Sometimes I like to get into religious debates becuse it is fun but I have lost the mood for it recently.
catmani2 1 month ago
@awolLDSasap Hmmm, you still have yet to show any evidence for all your accusations. The fact of the matter is that you cannot prove that he was a part of it just as I can't prove that he wasn't. I imagine we both have evidence to support our view. I have faith that he was a prophet of God and therefore God would not allow a prophet to do such a thing. Now my belief has come from much study, pondering, prayer, and countless personal experiences.
catmani2 1 month ago
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EastwoodForJudge 2 months ago
@EastwoodForJudge Feeling persecuted? Do a body count.
awolLDSasap 2 months ago
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EastwoodForJudge 2 months ago
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EastwoodForJudge 2 months ago
Brigham was not responsible, he never instructed any person commit murder. The Danites, who was disbanded by Joseph Smith have been recreated by some pretty rotten people who wish only evil for mormon but there is no evidence to support the wild stories out there, its all just pure speculation.
llewellleo 2 months ago
@nir085
This tendency to cover up the dirt of leaders is seen in sufficient evidence, in the here and now, to lead an ordinary person to conclude that, in 150 years "nothing has changed", at all, in Mormon-dumb!
Case in point: when Paul H. Dunn's lying douchebag dirt came to light, guess who rushed in, and tried to cover up that dirt? ANSWER: The First Presidency, through their "broom sweep", Elder Boyd K. Packer!
orlovna2 2 months ago
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Brigham Young, Blood Atonement Sermon: Journal of Discourses Vol. 3, p. 243-249 "Suppose you found your brother in bed with your wife, and put a javelin through both of them, you would be justified, and they would atone for their sins, and be received into the kingdom of God. I would at once do so in such a case; and under such circumstances, I have no wife whom I love so well that I would not put a javelin through her heart, and I would do it with clean hands".
TheSoulamore 3 months ago
@TheSoulamore
This is a certifiably true statement, from Brigham Young, as found in The Journal of Discourses, as you have given it, here! I testify that I know your quote to be true!
orlovna2 2 months ago
Brigham Young ordered the death of the members the wagon train, 120 human beings, men, women and children. The treachery of the leaders of the church had no bounds. The "principles" of the Mormon religion were abhorrent to the population of the U.S. Their church was directly responsible for the murders of two Federal Judges in the Utah territory . President Buchanan was moving an army in their direction to bring justice to the Utah territory. To this day the Mormons honor Brigham Young??
AsilandNefer 3 months ago
@AsilandNefer
you are so right, in your assessment!
They "watched Brigham Young like a hawk", from all the way out in Washington, D.C.
The President of the United States needed to match the strength of the Mormon Batallion, in order to ensure that when they stripped Brigham Young of his secular powers, as Governor of Utah Territory (and installed a "Gentile", in his place) that there would be no reprisals from that nefarious-bastard, "Mormon Empire Builder"!
orlovna2 2 months ago
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Fox News built up Mr. Cain, because he was new, because he's black. O'Reilly said Mr. Cain couldn't win, that the GOP has promised Romney the nomination already. Fox ignored Dr. Paul completely. Now, I see Fox TEARING DOWN Mr. Cain! Build him up, just to tear him down? That's dirty of Fox. When O'Reilly comes on tv, I switch the channel to Fox Business News "Freedom Watch." to learn about the news of the day and the CONSTITUTION.
vechorik 4 months ago
@decoy256...John D. Lee was promptly executed so Brigham could be absolved of blame. Do you really think the most powerful man in the Mountain West didn't know what was going on? What you know is what your (biased) leaders have told you. I personally spoke with Lee's great-grandaughter before she died and got the real story. Brigham mandated "no gentile would set foot in Zion" and took steps to keep it that way. Believe you me he answered God for it after his death!
bumperstickerguy 4 months ago
@bumperstickerguy No. I'm sorry but this is incorrect. This was not ordered by any leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. This was an independent group of mormons who did this out of paranoia. The movie does not mention mormons were driven out of their previous homes because of what they believed in. An extermination of the mormons was also ordered by a governor. All of those who participated were excommunicated from the church and suffered consequences of the law.
carsonkfranklin 4 months ago
The Mormon Church continues to immortalize Brigham Young, one of history's most base defilers to this day. The members of this sick cult should be outcasts from all the decent people of the world they infect. The doctrine of the Mormon Church is death to all Gentiles and has not changed since the lowdown treacherous massacre at Mountain Meadows in 1857
AsilandNefer 3 months ago
@AsilandNefer The members of this sick cult should be outcasts from all the decent people of the world they infect.
You sound like a Nazi
jferristube 3 months ago
@jferristube
Your mormon leaders are the Nazis.
I will share a little story that I'm sure you know nothing about: In 1941 or 1942, during World War II, then Mormon Prez., Heber Grant, told the "good German & Austrian Mormons" to follow Article of Faith #12: Grant told them to "subject themselves to Hitler, and obey, honor, and sustain Hitler'". MOST of them followed and "obeyed" their stupid-ass Mormon Leader Dog: even to the point of joining the Nazi Party, as a show of LOYALTY, to rulers.
orlovna2 2 months ago
@AsilandNefer
I couldn't have said it better, myself !
And, Briggy, the pig, went to Southern Utah, to the Mountain Meadows area, two years after the deaths of those people: and, the U.S. Corps of Engineers (or, perhaps, it was the U.S. Geological Survey team) had already found all those corpses, lying on the ground and mere skeletons, by that point, and gave them a decent burial, and put up a Christian cross, on top of the common grave.
Brigham said, "Vengeance is mine.. & I have taken some."
orlovna2 2 months ago
@carsonkfranklin
Who told you all of your baloney, young man?
NO ONE was excommunicated, from the Mormon Crutch, for their part, in the Mountain Meadows Massacre! The only person to have been punished, was the adopted son of Brigham Young, himself: a man named John D. Lee, who was executed, for his part, in it. The grandfather of now-dead apostle David B. Haight (viz., Isaac O. Haight) was a captain, or other high-ranking personage, in your Mormon Legion, back then. Haight was never punished
orlovna2 2 months ago
@orlovna2 They were all in fact excommunicated. There are records of this. You can not believe every hollywood movie that comes along and every story your family or friends tell you of how mormons are awful people. We own one of the largest charities in the world, and we send more help to other countries than any other religious group in the world. Yet no one hears about this because we do not advertise ourselves and show off. I just get sick of people thinking they know something when they dont
carsonkfranklin 2 months ago
@carsonkfranklin Yep, excommunication is punishment for murder. What are you talking about? The church brags about charity. Omiolo brags about lds charity every day here on youtube.
awolLDSasap 2 months ago
@bumperstickerguy
Your interview with that descendant of John D. Lee would make for interesting reading material. I, too, had an interview, with an interesting person: this was one of the granddaughters of Brigham Young: her father was one of BY's sons who took a plural wife (Sister Young's mother), in 1902. It seems that if you WERE somebody, you could secretly get a plural wife, after the 1890 Manifesto!
When I asked Ms. Young about her childhood, in a polygamous home, she got very sad.
orlovna2 2 months ago
@bumperstickerguy
Another comment: Brigham Young "needed" to live in a "compound", in Salt Lake City: he was paranoid enough to think that people were "out to get him". His home had a very high wall, all around it, and he had guards that he hired, to keep people out.
But, he didn't count on the fact that, in expressing a desire to take wife #57 (a 16-year-old girl), he set in motion events that led to his death, by poison.
It was a member of his own household that killed the bastard!
orlovna2 2 months ago
I find it funny that people say how it "incorrectly depicts" events. Were you there? Did you see it happen?? No..........
tattoodfreeek 5 months ago
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@tattoodfreeek I find it funny that people say how it "incorrectly depicts" events. Were you there? Did you see it happen?? No...
Were you there LOL
Nobody denies it happened.It did happen.But it was not ordered by Brigham Young.Those resposible were dealt with.
jferristube 3 months ago
I Love you.He feels sorry for Mitt Romney and not 4 the innocence wagon trian of christians whom The moronmen ruthlessly massacred
yazooize 8 months ago
@yazooize No. You seem to think you know more than you really do. This was not ordered by any leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. This was an independent group of mormons who did this out of paranoia. The movie does not mention mormons were driven out of their previous homes because of what they believed in. An extermination of the mormons was also ordered by a governor. All of those who participated were excommunicated from the church and suffered consequences of the law
carsonkfranklin 4 months ago
@yazooize
Brigham Young showed a callous disregard for the sanctity of human life, by having people like Bill Hickman, Opie Rockwell, and even Orson Hyde, as his personal (and real) henchmen who were willing to follow Briggy's orders to kill people who the latter wanted to get rid of.
(Bill Hickman tells his "memoirs", which is a tell-all confession, of sorts, in a book that was published, in the 1860s, at a time when he, Hickman, was also under indictment, by the U.S. government.)
orlovna2 2 months ago
I read the expression of this two and how they almost have the balls to tell the context of the season events. They was afraid to mention how the religious fanatics from other churches and city authorities expel Mormons from many places and kill several thousands of Mormons including women children , rape etc. rob their possessions(no body mention this on history) and finally they hide in Utah. Some members did this crime NOT the church as a whole. O'Reilly like always is partial onhis comments
hombregato2 8 months ago
@hombregato2
Nope. Sorry. You are being fed this bullspit from your leader dogs, in the Mormon Crutch! I read the whole account of how The church membership--almost as though they were a solitary person--altogether refused to testify, at the grand-jury hearings, in 1862, and covered up any hint of wrong-doing by Brigham Young by refusing, en masse, to tell what they knew, about the event!
Even Hitler, of the ensuing century, would have been amazed at such LOYALTY, to such a "ruler", as BY.
orlovna2 2 months ago
I agree with this actor George bush is not a bad guy if we are imperialist then why did give money to the countries in world war 2 we did not want to be in the war
bobbyraejohnson 10 months ago
This church is deceiving I testify to you it is a man centered religion I was in this cult and now happy that I'm out but take my word for it look it up look at history and read the bible and book of Mormon just because they say they are Christian doesn't mean they are Christian johova witness they are not Christians but they believe Christ wasn't our savior
bobbyraejohnson 10 months ago
@bobbyraejohnson huh? then you haven't been wholehearted in entering u just had fun ur not sincere then
ayakashizen 8 months ago
@ayakashizen
Quit being presumptuous about people, mor(m)on !
orlovna2 2 months ago
If Jon Voight believed George Bush was the leader of the free world (while leading an illegal invasion of Iraq), then his heart might be heavy, but his brain is very light.
ORCA4312 11 months ago
Mormons were openly racist against blacks until the gov't threatened to take their tax-exempt status in 1978.
Mormon founder Joseph smith was arrested for conning people in 1826 by putting his face in his hat and pretending he could seek hidden treasure by looking at seer stones. He then 'translated' the book o'moron doing the same thing in 1827-1830.
Smith was actually secretly married to many women before he claimed an angel threatened him with a sword telling him to be a polygamist or die.
solomanspaming 1 year ago
@solomanspaming
You are "partly right and partly mistaken", on some of the details.
I read the entire History of the Church (the 7-volume paperback edition), in 1978.
It is interesting that LDS church historians, in that complete work, were defending Joseph Smith's liaison with Fanny Alger (from circa 1832), as though she were one of Joe's polygamous wives, from that period of time! The "revelation on plural marriage" was recorded in 1842. So, Smith shagged Fanny for the booty, 10 years prior
orlovna2 2 months ago
@nir085 One might want to assume he knew what they were planning, but there is no evidence that he actually did. I am nothing more than a skilled attorney who can easily point out the flaws in assuming knowledge absent proof. Condemnation should be based on proof, not conjecture.
decoy256 1 year ago
@decoy256
You are certainly a dumb-ass, run-of-the-mill type of lawyer: if you are one, at all!
orlovna2 2 months ago
So if it wasn't "greatly encouraged," then what was it (not that I am agreeing)? I think that Young knew that he did not know who those people were, did know what was going on with his militia-men's plans, but let it play out anyway. He let a massacre happen without knowing who they travelers were! And I am not saying that Gov. Boggs and those who killed the Mormons were justified by any measured. Those men were definitely wicked and deserved punishment!
miljo34 1 year ago
@miljo34 he had no idea what they were doing.. they did this independently.. on their own. he didn't let it happen.. they broke the law and the churches rules by doing this.. They did this on their own just as people like hitler (who was a catholic) did terrible things on their own. llewellleo is right. If you met a normal mormon family im sure you would have trouble finding terrible faults in them.. We are generally nice people..
carsonkfranklin 3 months ago
@carsonkfranklin Ha Ha, I am a Mormon (well, technically), but the church did a lot of messed up stuff back in the day. I've looked into this quite a bit and it is very controversial meaning that there is evidence both ways. And considering Brigham's historical personality, I don't doubt it. I am actually doing my Master's thesis on religion.
miljo34 3 months ago
@miljo34
When you do your master's thesis on religion, don't forget to use The Journal of Discourses, as resource material, on your treatise of your own religion: members simply cannot deny what Brigham Young said, in those volumes of material.
He was a "crackpot of the highest order": and, this is easily seen, when one diligently reads what that bastard wrote!
orlovna2 2 months ago
@carsonkfranklin
You are so arrogantly ignorant of your church's past!
Self-justification is as much a sin, as anything else: maybe worse!
orlovna2 2 months ago
@miljo34
I, myself, "do justify Governor Boggs", of Missouri. His executive order was not an "Orkin Bug Exterminating Order". Through that executive order, the good people of Missouri were empowered to "shoot any Mormon, on sight" (without having to call in the local peace-keepers, for help). This served the purpose of exonerating citizens if they shot and killed a trouble-maker.
Mormons were justifiably expelled, from Missouri, after they formed a secret "Gadianton band", with hooded faces.
orlovna2 2 months ago
@decoy256 Correction: my understanding is that Brigham Young did not engage in the battle, but that in fact, he greatly encouraged another man to spear-head the deed. Coming from the prophet, this man put his heart into it. Young gets off scotch free.
miljo34 1 year ago
"Greatly encouraged" is a bit of an exaggeration. Young certainly did give fiery sermons (getting driven out of numerous states can do that to a person). But there is nothing to suggest that Young ordered anyone killed, let alone women and children.
As opposed to Gov. Boggs who actually DID instruct the killing of Mormons. And it took more than 100 years to get an apology for that. At least someone paid for the deaths in the MMM... tell me, who was punished for all the dead Mormons in Illinois?
decoy256 1 year ago
Saturn are you aware that the Church has a lay ministry? Also we are very much normal people who are not discouraged to interact with others. Concerning the movie it is not historically correct and controversial because it goes against recorded history. It tries to demonise a man who had no part to play in the massacre, in fact a man who discouraged such action.
llewellleo 1 year ago
@llewellleo
There you go, again: spewing out bullspit !
A member of the church was there, with Brig Young, when the latter visited the place where the Baker-Fancher Party were all killed. The member heard (and later recorded) what Brigham Young said, at that place where a crude stone monument was erected.
Breed'm Young said, "Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord...and I have taken some."
(The phrase "I have taken some" is what B.Y. added, to the scripture. Clearly, this is a veiled confession.)
orlovna2 2 months ago
@orlovna2 Which member was it? What was his name?. I doubt Brigham would have made such a statement but rather its surely a product of some fiend who hates Mormons, claimed to be a Christians. but never knew what it truelly meant to be one. Those close to Brigham painted a different picture of the man, a man filled with compassion and nothing like the monster you wish him to be.
llewellleo 2 months ago
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MORMONS WORSHIP SATAN..........
eitoobmiz 1 year ago
Mormonism is stil very much a radical cult controlled by a conspiracy of secrecy and wealthy men who play on the weak.
saturnsongs 1 year ago
@saturnsongs Look at almost any regular mormon family.. They are polite and respective. Studies show mormons live longer than any other religious group there is.. They are Christians. Don't take word from other people who surely know nothing of the church. Read the book of mormon and pray about it. In the bible it says, "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God."
carsonkfranklin 3 months ago
@saturnsongs
LDS Article of Faith #12 is the basis for the control-freak nature of this cult.
"We believe in being subject to kings...."
Really? WHY? If that is true, then mormons would have been good loyal subjects of King George, during the Revolutionary War, in the late 1700s, instead of champions of true liberty. (But, mormons want to HAVE IT BOTH WAYS, at the selfsame time!)
Addendum: "We believe in being subject to...mormon-church presidents...in...sustaining them (without question)."
orlovna2 2 months ago
@decoy256 Even if Young didn't tell them to do it, his fiery anti-outsider rhetoric set up conditions that made the murder of outsiders seem like the right thing to do.
chug20 1 year ago
@chug20 Not unlike the fiery anti-outsider rhetoric that led to LDS persecution in Missouri... again, an offense that was never apologized for until more than a century and a half later. No matter how you slice it, the Mormon leadership handled this situation better than comparable leadership of their time. Boggs was never punished.
Now, I'm not saying that this was excusable, but look at the whole context and Mormons did a fair bit better than others at the time in similar situations.
decoy256 1 year ago
@decoy256
You go and read the testimony of David Whitmer, now!
Both David and John Whitmer were threatened with eviction from their own homes by "other" mormons wearing hooded faces and threatening people.
This led David Whitmer to compare this secret "Danite" group with the Gadianton (band of) robbers, from the Book of Mormon. The two Whitmers fled, and Joseph Smith approved of the Danites' actions.
If I were Boggs, I would have done the same thing: to keep the violent mormons OUT of Missouri
orlovna2 2 months ago
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@decoy256
If you choose self deception while oxford scholars contradict your claim. You have a God given right to do so LOL!!!!
SnakeCIA1 1 year ago
@decoy256
What kind of mormon funeral potatoes have you been eating, lately, there?
Prosecuted and excommunicated? How about EXECUTED, instead?
The only one executed for his role, in the Mountain Meadows Massacre, was Brig Young's adopted son, John D. Lee, who wrote (while in prison) that his father was using him as a scapegoat: as he was the only one put to death: while all the others went free.
(Note: In Southern Utah, J.D. Lee is a "heroe", whose town statue is there, for all to see!)
orlovna2 1 year ago
@orlovna2 Well, in the United States people are prosecuted BEFORE being executed.
I'd say that the "Mormons" have dealt with Mountain Meadows far better than, for instance, how the Catholics have dealt with the Inquisition. How many inquisitors were executed for the people they killed?
At least Brigham Young denounced the act during his lifetime and someone was executed. The Catholic church didn't denounce the Inquisition for CENTURIES.
decoy256 1 year ago 2
@decoy256
Brigham Young did NOT denounce the Mountain Meadows Massacre! There is a ton of ancillary evidence to support this conclusion! Young never visited the site of the massacre, until the murdered people had been reduced to skeletons! NONE of the mormon militia were ordered to bury the remains of those they had killed.
The Corps of Engineers, passing through the area, gave those skeletal corpses a proper burial, and piled up a mound of stones, with a christian cross at the top.
orlovna2 2 months ago
Voight doesn't know Mormon history like he thinks he does - a reflection of the misinformation portrayed in the movie (this movie flopped horribly by the way).
CollegePreacher 1 year ago 2
@CollegePreacher
Voight doesn't have to know Mormon history. The script showed how "religious fanatics used their religion as a rationalization, for murder". That's all!
What are YOU going to do? Rush in and defend (and give aid to and abet those murderers, as an accessorry after the fact?
By the way, the late Elder David B. Haight's own grandfather was part of the massacre. But, did he get punished (and executed) for his role? Also, Jacob Hamblin, and many others.
orlovna2 1 year ago
@orlovna2 Read the book of mormon then come tell me that. And yes all the members of that attack were excommunicated from the church by Brigham young.. They were also punished by law.. This was a group of mormons that acted independently.. The same as hitler, a Catholic.. There are mormon fundamentalists who are different that members of The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Later Day Saints. they are the ones who still believe in polygamy and other things. do better research before you judge us.
carsonkfranklin 3 months ago
I love how people "forget" that the mormons were forced out of several states, hundreds were murdered, they were raped, beaten, persecuted and even had an extermination order placed on them. When they finally found a place to call their own, the US government sent an army to contain them due to lies that were spread. I'm glad people forget that because that wouldn't work.
catmani2 1 year ago 3
@catmani2
You have been fed your pablum by leaders full of bullspit!
The U.S. President sent a whole "army" (larger than a battalion), to Utah, in preparation for taking away from Brig Young the "keys to the secular government" of Utah Territory! And, that is the SOLE reason for sending in the troops: to make sure that bastard Brigham did not order reprisals from his Mormon Battalion, at the setting up a non-Mormon governor, to replace B.Young, as leader of the territory.
orlovna2 2 months ago
It's our job to question our elected officials, and to honestly hold them accountable for their actions. The President is not above being questioned by anyone, be it a celebrity, a politician, or simply a voter. That is an UPSIDE of free speech sir, not a downside.
carlasue88 1 year ago
@carlasue88
But, of course, you probably know that mormons believe in being subject to....presidents. How is that even possible, in a democracy (or republic)? Mormons have a king-man mentality which dictates to them to be "loyal subjects" of the crown: Obama's Crown, maybe?
LMAO
orlovna2 1 year ago
@orlovna2 how lame you are to think that we would want sympathy, the church has grown not because of sympathy, of course you would not know that. It is ignorant people like yourself that ran Mormons out of every State, and persecuted them until the only way they could be left alone, was to build a state of their own. Even then, people like you could not leave them alone. You are a bigot and a self-righteous idiot, get off Youtube and do something good for your neighbor.
novarone72 1 year ago
@novarone72
I encourage you to do the same, hypocrite!
orlovna2 2 months ago
@novarone72
P.S: Your persecution complex is "showing", again! Cry, cry, cry a river!
orlovna2 2 months ago
@novarone72
You are like dead-dog Hinckley was: when it "suited him", he played the "persecution card", too: just like you! You're pathetic!
orlovna2 2 months ago
@orlovna2 Fact:most mormons are conservative and our beliefs are more conservative as well. Example:we are pro life and are against gay marriage.. Get your facts straight before you judge something you know nothing about.. honestly you look stupid when you say something completely false.. We do not look at it as being "loyal" to our leaders, but have faith in them. the reason you never hear of the good work mormons do in the world is because we dont take credit for it.. Cant saythat about others
carsonkfranklin 3 months ago
@carlasue88 This was not done by our church leaders but of a separate group of mormons who did this independently.. Lets look at what the mormons do.. We are one of the worlds largest completely non profit charities. We are constantly aiding people in need in many countries. Studies show we live longer than any other religious group. Why judge mormons on actions by what a independant group of them did.. its not like people blame other churches because people like hitler (a catholic)
carsonkfranklin 3 months ago
Comment removed
awolLDSasap 1 month ago
BUT, along comes Dallin H. Oaks, who says the following:
"Don't criticize THE BRETHREN: even if they are wrong!"
These two ideas are certainly diametrically opposed.
(What Oaks is saying is this: your leaders cannot be held to account by you, the members of the Crutch).
orlovna2 2 months ago
@decoy256 not much is known actually. it's possible he had a hand in it, but there's no affirmative evidence either way.
carlasue88 1 year ago
Hey Jon please crawl back in your hole and stop spreading lies about the Mormans.
jlberenyi 2 years ago
It's pretty dumb linking the Mountain Meadows massacre to New York/DC attacks simply because they both occured on the same date in different years.
Museite 2 years ago 9
@Museite senseless mass murder of unarmed adults and children I think is the connection here - the date is simply another part of the coincidence.
carlasue88 1 year ago
@Museite It would be dumb linking the two events for that reason alone, but there are other reasons, such as, y'know, they're both religious acts of terrorism on U.S.oil against innocent people who could not care less about their expanded Abrahamic crap. It is important to point out the fact that it is 9/11 because when people say "9/11" they think the Muslims alone have the potential for murder, when evangelical types (i.e. Mormons) have the same capacity if they are not put in their place
nir085 1 year ago
@nir085 I'm afraid I laughed at your final sentence.
Museite 1 year ago
@Museite it was the mormons behind the WTC attack?
solomanspaming 1 year ago
@solomanspaming Yawn
Museite 1 year ago
@Museite Mormon founder Joseph Smith looked at magic stones in a hat to con people, he used this same con to write the book of mormon. The records, affidavits, and other data show conclusively that in 1826 Joseph Smith was arrested, went to trial, was found guilty as an imposter in the Stowell matter of "glass-looking." It is not a matter of debate, opinion or religious preference. It is a proven historical fact. He used this same 'magic' to 'translate' the book o'moron from 1827-1830.
solomanspaming 1 year ago
cont; "The charge that Joseph was known to hunt treasure with 'peep' or 'seer' stones, etc, was serious enough that Mormon scholar Francis W. Kirkham stated that if the court record could be found, it would show that the Mormon Church was false:'If any evidence had been in existence that Joseph Smith had used a seer stone for fraud and deception, four years before the Book of Mormon was printed, and this confession was in a court record, it was impossible for him to organize a restored church'
solomanspaming 1 year ago
@solomanspaming Not now, Bernard.
Museite 1 year ago
@solomanspaming
Even though you wrote your comment 10 months ago, I will add to what you said.
Joseph Smith, Junior, used the EXACT SAME BROWN STONE WITH HOLES IN IT, to "look for" buried treasure, as well as to "translate ancient writings", the year after he was arrested, for "glass-looking".
orlovna2 2 months ago
@Museite
On the same date, in DIFFERENT CENTURIES!
orlovna2 2 months ago
anyone that follows a religion like the mormons did in September Dawn needs to be hung on a cross while it is set on fire. I believe pple should be punished for their sins but there needs to be proof not bc of some bullshit vision someone has. The sins that pple commit that im talking about are rape, murder, etc...
zangetsudx1 2 years ago
Well then I guess everyone in a religion should receive the same punishment then, because all mainstream stream religions are guilty of persecuting people that did not believe in their way of thinking at some point in time.
SteelCity1981 2 years ago
@SteelCity1981
One cannot ascribe (nor adjudicate) guilt, to a whole religion: unless murder and mayhem are (or were) "planks of the credo" of that religion. There are very few "religions of violence" (who are underpinned, by violence and hate).
Your answer is very wishy-washy. You want EVERYBODY to be guilty. That is what you want.
orlovna2 1 year ago
@orlovna2 Ah no i didn't just the church to acknowledge it fully in which most morons and the church itself still deny it.
SteelCity1981 1 year ago
@orlovna2 I think you are missing the point. the point i was making is the vast majority of religions in their history aren't guilt free of violent acts to some degree. Like the old saying goes don't throw stones inside glass houses.
SteelCity1981 1 year ago
i highly doubt that the emigrants would have threaten the mormons, secondly pple that are extremists with their religion would go and murder pple for their religion like they did in september dawn and lastly angelina jolie needs to stay the fuck out of other pples countries and let them live their lives. People need to mind their own business when it comes to other countries.
zangetsudx1 2 years ago
tonyzwlu on the other hand is a rare and honest Mormon if he is being forthright, not because it agrees just with my point but it is in concert with documented truth. My personal take is that alot of Mormon persecution did not have to happen but Mormons seemed resolute to practice plural marriage AFTER the Manifesto so in essence they lied many years to the federal government.
nashaunconwell 2 years ago
Real common Brian Terrill for a Mormon to pick on a christian when it threatens the church or fellow Mormons, funny how in Ensign Mormons portrays that Joseph is translating the Book of Mormon under candle light with the Golden plates next to it, but truth is he had a chocolate colored rock he looked at in a hat he called the Urim Thummin, i learned Mormons only love truth when it is suiting their personal or church or Josephs benefit. As you men worshippers say "Praise to the MAN".
nashaunconwell 2 years ago
Nobody points out that those innocent Christians going through Utah were making death threats to the Mormons as they moved their wagon train through Utah. Just ironic. This guys knows more on the facts of this innocent wagon train of Christians than he knows his daughter.
BrianTerrill 2 years ago
More accurately: The leader of the Fancher party told the mormons that he would tell the Clifornia government to attack the mormons from the west. The mormons were being threatened by an attack from the east by the federal government. The reason the Fanchers made this threat is Brigham Young told the church members they were not to do business with outsiders. And according to 2 of Brigham Young's wives and his neice, he did order the massacre.
tumormeister 2 years ago
I am a Mormon and I think this films brings a dot of the truth of the Mountains Meddows, I like it because there are so many events that happened in out church that are not published by our religion.
I am extremelly sorry for the loss the world had in 1957, 120 lives are matchless and I am deeply sorry for those who survived and had to live with what the mormons suffered for more than 20 years in the hand of those who jugded the mormons and whom never who judged those who killed the mormons
tonyzwlu 2 years ago 4
12 was 1857
fanofdavidsfarm 2 years ago
i mean it was 1857
fanofdavidsfarm 2 years ago
BoyMixer, I'm right there with you. Grew up in the SLC area not as a Mormon, and I know more about their history than so many of those in the LDS faith do. Mountain Meadows is a fun one to discuss (in a very respectful and educational manner because of the misinformation often taught about it...even in public school)
gracefultxn 2 years ago
This is a case of Liberal hollywood trying to stop mitt romney from becoming president.
skitmarx 2 years ago
Voight looks really uneasy during the whole interview.
jasedotcom 2 years ago 3
the president is the leader of the free world? If you are being lead are you really free?
B92MURS 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
There IS ONLY ONE JESUS; The JESUS of The BIBLE. The Jesus of the Jehovahs Witnesses was tortured on a STAKE, with ONE nail driven through both hands, over his head. The mormon Jesus is a POLYGAMIST, from Adam God having sex with Virgin Mary. NEITHER PREACH the CROSS. 1Corin1:18"For Preaching of The CROSS is to them that PERISH, FOOLISHNESS, but to US that are SAVED, it is the POWER of GOD.Eph2:8"For by GRACE are you SAVED through FAITH; & NOT of YOURSELVES. It's The GIFT of GOD...NOT BY WORKS
reverendluke 2 years ago
A mormon that was VERY well versed in lds HISTORY, ADMITTED to me, '...Yes, i KNOW what you're saying is TRUE.. I KNOW that joseph smith is a FALSE PROPHET.. BUT, I just can't BELIEVE that GOD could send ANYONE to HELL, that LEADS A CLEAN LIFE." The PROBLEM with that, is that "ALL have SINNED", and "By the WORKS of the LAW, shall NO flesh be JUSTIFIED..Gal2:16,Rom3:23. JESUS PAID for our SINS on the CROSS, because there was NO other WAY, for US to get to Heaven. We're SAVED by GRACE, NOT WORKS
reverendluke 2 years ago
THOU SHALT NOT LIE REVEREND.......... no references at all
skitmarx 2 years ago
God is not great! Ouch dam lightning!
juliodiego 2 years ago 3
Didn't mention the 1000's of Mormons who were slaughtered back in the day.
Jon Voight, you are messed up in the head - you need to be more like your daughter.
jbrabec22 2 years ago
George Bush is to 911/WTC what Brigham Young was to 911/MMM. With the exception B. Young had more Direct of a hand in MMM than G. Bush. 911 was in inside job and a media job. we were fed false video. this is provable. The mormons also were very good at spreading a lie about innocent people.
IExposeMormonism 2 years ago
people need to get into the whole story! We were being killed and pushed from state to state and we had a militia to protect ourselves and this event occured so we did not use religion to justify murdering anyone!
dollface0907 2 years ago 4
Yeah I print my own currencey today and I wont get procecuted and I am the messenger to god too! How many time was Jhon Smith procecuted for fraud?
juliodiego 2 years ago
The Massacre was done because of a the militia of Ceder City believed it was "divine justice" for the murder of Parley P. Pratt by a husband of one of Pratt's "wives".Top that with the fact that many in southern Utah where abit on the "Fundamental" side (Same as it is today. ever been to Hilldale. I have, YIKES).
You had a powderkeg that went off killing 120 innocent Americans in the name of god . I grew up around Mormons (even FLDS Morons) and know their history better then I really should.
BoyMixer 2 years ago
Jon Voight is so naive!
Lmotion 2 years ago 5
This movie is to peddle Hollywood's propaganda...in supporting Brad Pitt's secret cousin Obama.
tfwaters 2 years ago
Yeah Obama is the Anti-Christ you are just blinded by your ignorace and lds propaganda. A black man is your master thats and you are his servent. He is living the good life thanks to your tax money. Lds did not give blacks the pristhood now the dude is your master.
juliodiego 2 years ago
juliodiego you're a racist prick!
wdgeo 2 years ago
Yeah I am the racist? The white american mormons are the racist that think that Jesus visted america back in the day and all the laminaites and negros where cursed by god! The book of mormon with its white all powerfull dudes in row boat who reached america is a hero comic book hahahahah!
juliodiego 2 years ago
well I certainly can't argue with that! But just because all sorts of American-made religions are racist, is that any reason for you to be?
wdgeo 2 years ago
Actually there were black men who held the priesthood way back in the day. Joseph Smith saw past racism. He was on a whole nother level then some of his followers. But there were others who did bring slaves with them on there journey. And I say some not all, because there were some that were not racist and treated the blacks the same as the white members. It was until after Joseph Smith death that the priesthood was taken away. But you what, God is gonna have it out with them for what they did
chattenbox702 2 years ago
Prove it, no facts mormons where racist like most of america at the time but don't bull shit me and god has nothing to do in this world with justice! He would of had Hitler have a heart atack but he just looked on like he looks on all the injustice in the world! God is not great
juliodiego 2 years ago
Don't bring up hitler. He was an antichrist.
philk02 2 years ago
God? Seriously? Get a clue!!
"God" isn't going to have anything out with anybody unless it's in their mind! "God" is imaginary, a straw man created by humans to make themselves more important.
wdgeo 2 years ago
chattenbox702 yeah were did you hear that it sounds like a mormon to me just making stuff up as you go along
crowofdeath2 2 years ago
Brigham Young was hundreds of miles away. Explain to me how BY knew everything. This was before cars, planes, and trains. The logistics just don't make sense.
alethiaaeterna 2 years ago 4
I am so amazed at how you people literally believe everything you are spoon fed by tv or movies...how do you make it through life...I can see how you would go about trying to kill whatever holywood says to kill..or do what they say..are you robots...think for yourself...people make mistakes...these people did...but that doesnt convict everyone who is a member of that religion...people are people...so get a grip and try to be more CHRIST LIKE...that should be your goal..
gratefulmouse 3 years ago
with all that..name one person from any religion that you know of that is perfect...I dont think you can name one...only the Savior Jesus Christ was perfect..He lives...the Savior lives...now...Holywood...would have you believe lies...and mitt romney was running for pres. then..they wanted him out of the way..so...they attacked his religion..also...BIG LOVE.. suddenly came out..cant you see what is going on..make you hate mitt..so you vote for someone else..it worked.obama won.holywoods choice
gratefulmouse 3 years ago
as a matter of fact the leader then had a search party to find who was coming and found it was a wagon train of reg people and sent a message to let the wagon train go through..it never got there..one man in that town took over who wasnt a good person ..and drove the people in that town to do this..when they realized what they did..they did try to cover it up..because of the persecution that they had already encountered..so much for religious freedom..
gratefulmouse 3 years ago
boy do I hear bigotry here..why dont you go get your guns and kill all mormons...is that what its coming to..it happened before..an extermination order was put out by our own gov ...even though we have freedom of religion..and utah wasnt a state then..so..the people in that tiny town went crazy when they heard a militia was sent out to exterminate them..many mormons had already been murdered..men women and children..it was done before the leader did find out..
gratefulmouse 3 years ago 2
methinks gratefulmouse is a robot complaining about how robotic other people are
sweetelesue 2 years ago
there needs to be a new crusade..........against the mormons.............the pope could endorse military action againsrt these heretics..........salt lake city 2009 = jerusalem, 1099.
we need a new godfrey of boullion to lead the true christians against the mormon heretics........
bremenlegation 3 years ago
Jon Voight is delusional in some of the things he says.
Right wing propaganda has ruled over for to long.
Listen to JF Kennedy's last speech.
Listen to ML Kings last speech.
Listen to Edward Murrow.
bobbybaner 3 years ago
I just viewed "September Dawn." The very sad thing about it is that Brigham Young knew EVERYTHING that happened in HIS territory and bragged about it. He was an American Moses....problem: He seized on an opportunity to lead a group of people who were inherently good....but leaderless when Jos .Smith died. Mormons will never really account for what happened in that massacre and other mishaps. They have simply invested too much of their lives to deal honestly with the past. Yes, it is sad.
stuartjohnstonsr 3 years ago
That is what made me so mad about this event. It is questionable whether he ordered the attack, but he covered it up and bragged about the 120 murders. It is sicking.
thelight84 3 years ago
Yeah man, that's sooo true!!! this movie opened my eyes!
Maybe you believe in the matrix as well, or Batman, or that Iron man will save America.
Lmotion 2 years ago 4
man, some of you guys need to get a hobby or something. Look at all the good the church and its members, and leaders do every day. Talk about something you know. It's just too easy to tear something down that you think you know about. WHO ARE YOU TO SPEAK ABOUT THE CHURCH? Talk about something you know, like Dungeons and Dragons, or chat rooms, or whatever you might actually know about. I love people like you - a "know-it-all" that's got something to prove. Sweet!
rachaeladam 3 years ago
so, just because you dont like the fact that some people have a negative opinion about a religion started by a schizophrenic man, you think we are not allowed to voice that opinion because you do not agree with it? typical mormon response is to cry persecution and stomp their feet when someone someone doesnt buy into their false religion and magic underwear
spydernyne983 2 years ago
I was raised LDS and it's retarded. I stopped going when I was 14. Nice people dumb religion.
giacomord 3 years ago 2
I like how GodLovedjosmith keeps cutting/pasting the same crap onto here. I invite all of you to go se his "evidence". It's a real hoot! Looks like Dr. Nibley couldn't find anyone but other mormons to back up his claims that his little rag is true. Real scientists looked at it and laughed their asses off. Way to perpetuate the lies godlovedjosmith! Way to perpetuate the lie.
cowdragon 3 years ago
"the down side of free speech"???????????
press1500 3 years ago
Dr. Hugh Nibley commenting on our research (Nov 7, 2003), "...After this, those who challenge the Book of Mormon will have some heavy explaining to do."
jefflindsay . com
fairlds . org
All the new evidence pointing to geography and physical evidence found since 2003 makes the Smithsonian Institutes Statement of 1996 about obsolete.
GLJS
GodLovedJosephSmith 3 years ago
All organized religion has to be subject to the rational mind. Not in terms of what you believe about God(s) but what your level of participation is to be and what you are asked to give up.
Mormons have a pretty rocky start but then again the Jews committed genocide in Canaan and the Christians committed pograms across Europe.
HelplessAutomation 3 years ago
Not only is that not true, it is down right mean and disrespectful. No matter what I thought about you or your religion, I would never disrespect you like that.
cruxx54 3 years ago
The movie is good but nevertheless very unchristlike to Mormons who ever since been so persecuted and denied justice.Leaders of Missouri has admitted though.Complete and fair investigation should have been done first.Unrighteous relay of information is not pro human and above all not a Christian practice.We should be peacemakers and treat each other as real people regardless of religion, race etc. In the end we can't deny God's wisdom on the judgment day.Pray for the truth
bastanla 3 years ago
great movie.yet still lacked investigation and ended up being not Christlike to the Mormons. Very unfair.
bastanla 3 years ago
calling america imperialist is about the most INSANE thing ever...
m074h3u5 4 years ago
Um...fully half the continental United States was seized by force from Mexico. Most of the rest was seized by force from the Native Tribes who called it home. Within the last 25 years, the USA has invaded Panama, the former Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Iraq (twice) and others. Likewise nearly half the military budget of all of planet Earth right now is that of the United States alone.
At the least, the claim is NOT insane. It can pretty easily be defended.
zahir13 3 years ago
calling america imperialist is REALLY insane...
m074h3u5 4 years ago
Evidence is in the book of Mormon that it is a religious fictional book! L.D.S. turn to Jesus and the bible and expose the Mormon lies.
scottymac702 4 years ago
amen dude
JtBonds 3 years ago
Why don't they do a movie about the Haun's mill massacre, or how the mormons were driven barefoot in the middle of winter out of Nauvoo, Illinois, and all the terrible things that were done to the mormons in early church history by people who professed to be ChristianS?
imnvrgvnup 4 years ago 17
Go ahead and make such a movie, you fuckwit!
fukprc 4 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
If that history were written it would be ugly for all the players. it would expose the occult murders of people. not just Mormon, or Methodist,etc. an honest history would show ALL players at JS murder,MMM, P. Pratt and more, were FREEMASONS> all of 'em. it is a dark deep game. it wouldnt surprize me if B. Young was involved in JS death. regardless, ALL this history is Systematic FREEMASONRY
hypnotstcollector 4 years ago
because no one feels bad for a group of religious nuts who molest children and oppress women. They just want them gone. Mormons are one of the worst things ever crapped out of our country's bowels. We should expose them for what they are. Liars. Cheaters. Oppressors. Charlatans.
cowdragon 3 years ago