Derren Brown: friend or enemy of skeptics?

[dumpsky]

you simply look at it the wrong way... D. Brown is 1. a Mentalist/Entertainer 2. a Sceptic. so explaining his tricks would have nothing to do with debunking anything. his point is that he guarantees that it's a trick and that it has nothing to do with magic at all. an excellent way to demostrate how "non-magic" can easily appear as "magic". he leaves enough hints to send you on a "knowledge acqusition tour" that you just have to do by yourself. he surely is not a fraud.

[scepticchristian]

Ctd. but how many times does an audience (ethically or legally or to satisfy you) need to say or justify this? Most magicians do not say they will deceive you and all (by definition) lie, as Randi says. I think you are squabling over minor issues. He is absolutely a sceptic and he is very cool and calm about challenging woo hoo. He has said himself that he has to be a bit careful about confronting psychics as he doesn't yet want an all out battle. We are all very fortunate to have him.

[scepticchristian]

Derren is a 100% sceptic. His many TV specials (e.g. Seance, Messiah, Miracles for sale, Derren Brown investigates series, His association with Andy Nyman) demonstrate this as do his books, interviews (e.g. Richard Dawkins), websites such as his, 'science of scams' one, wikipedia. He's done more for scepticism in the UK than any other magician and still does. He's an ex evangelical Christian too. You may not like his honest opening to his programmes (I will deceive and entertain you) but (ctd)

[pixie631]

I should also add I think he's a great entertainer and a clever guy I've been to his live show an I really enjoyed it but I'm disappointed that he is also patronising his audience in this way after all I'm sure he would hate to be patronised like that himself

[pixie631]

Btw thanks for this video I had my doubts about Derren's ethics and this has helped confirm them for me

[singularnost]

He is a performer who again and again said that paranormal doesnt exist and has debunked supernatural things, over and over again, and he very nicely explained it all in his book for the nice literate people that can read and on a lot of his shows. Do you expect him to repeat it every second during every show he is making just becouse some people are not that bright to get that message loud and clear?

[gilbertghoule]

Magic performance is the art of fraud.

[agnes1stowable]

you're a moron, wisdom of crowds would work.

and he's not a fraud, he's a very clever performer and a cracking showman

[OptLtges]

@agnes1stowable HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Arkesus]

Sorry, but just need to correct you on one thing, it's not fraud. Magical entertainers have been doing this for years, apparently explaining how the effect is performed, when in fact it's not. This often is to facilitate another phase of the routine for the entertainment of the spectators

[iamrorschach]

I agree with dogwheezes point. It's just a shame he had to sound like an idiot to make it. HouseofHeathens seems like a nice intelligent guy. And I was hoping to actually discuss this trend of snide intellectual elitism that has sprung up in skeptics circles rather than descend into a shouting match. I know that goes against years of youtube tradition but we can always try.

[dogwheeze]

its what magicians do you moron, its for ENTERTAINMENT - whats the matter with you people? you can 'claim' anything you like because you're there to entertain...people pay to hire you, or pay to go to the THEATRE to see you PERFORM... its like an interactive play in some ways - what do you expect people to do? perform magic or mentalism and then show you the damn instructions? spastic...

[ElGeecho]

@dogwheeze I totally disagree with you. I don't necessarily expect magicians to show how their tricks are performed -- although some magicians like Penn and Teller sometimes do -- but giving bullshit, pseudoscientific explanations is really no different than claiming to have actual magical powers. It's just nonsense.

[iamrorschach]

I would like to respectfully point out that this video epitomises the problem I have with the atheist/skeptic movement. My point is going to be to long to post here and I hate squabbling in youtube comments but I'd like to ask what harm Derren has done with this magic trick that makes him an 'enemy of skeptics' and therefore okay to reveal his methods? Why do have to make non skeptics our enemy?

[willwak]

He's an entertainer. He's not on this planet to please pedantic obsessives. Get over yourself.

[ranshire]

@willwak I would like to point out that Penn & Teller are also entertainers, and have consistently shown have integrity when they tell you when it's an act and when they're being honest. Also, do we not want to correct people like Jenny McCarthy when they're wrong and spreading lies. Not *exactly* the same thing as she really *believes* the lie, but I trust you see my point

[willwak]

@ranshire

Who cares?

[ranshire]

@willwak Ah. A troll. Got ya. No longer feed you, I will.

[Trollerbladez]

He doesn't need to explain all his tricks, it's part of the showmanship. Sure, perhaps it is a false explanation and he shouldn't have done that, but he did.

How does not fully explaining something make him less of a skeptic?

[ranshire]

@Trollerbladez In my mind, it makes him less trustworthy. When you say you're going to give and explaination for something, and then give a false answer, trust kind of goes out the window.

[willwak]

@ranshire

Less trustworthy? What planet do you live on? You can't even trust your banks. Goldman Sachs sent toxic loans all over the world, yuor military invaded country after country since WW2, the CIA has overthrown elected governments and killing their leaders and annexing territory they have no business in and you are concerned about the scruples of a man who does tricks for a living?

Why don't you grow the fuck up son.

[SUPAHOSS]

@willwak

I second that.

[DogmaFight]

Derren is definitely a skeptic. But he is also a performer. I have heard him reiterate in the past his disclaimer about using "misdirection and deception," pointing out that this is OFTEN STILL BEING EMPLOYED when he explains how he did a trick! It's still part of the performance.

[gonadsgo]

so i herd u like jelibeens?

[NoJohnDoe]

pls get a tripod or something.

[HouseOfHeathens]

@NoJohnDoe Have one. Didn't need it so I didn't use it.

[LeafInTheStream]

This is at least the second time that Brown has been dishonest with his audience (the first being his Russian Roulette stunt, where he later admitted that no, the gun wasn't actually loaded after all). Such a shame, given what Derren Brown has to offer, that he has made himself into the boy who cried wolf.

[HouseOfHeathens]

@LeafInTheStream Yeah, it's a shame when a reliable source of information turns out to be not so much. I felt that way when Thunderf00t started making political videos.

[Samgurney88]

Second time? He's a magician, lest I risk repeating myself, deception is a teeny tiny part of the job discription

[LeafInTheStream]

@Samgurney88 There's a context in which deception occurs. After all, another part of a magician's job description is making certain disclaimers, such as "no stooges are being used", etc., and these must be trustworthy. If they aren't, then I (with no experience) could perform spectacular mentalism feats (after lying about not using stooges), and meanwhile the genuinely impressive feats of Brown are greatly undermined because the audience is left thinking "maybe he's using stooges."

[jbdtaylor]

@LeafInTheStream Derren has not admitted to any such thing, and that wasn't even the rumour. The (unconfirmed) rumour was that the gun was loaded with blanks, which makes it quite humorous when people think that if it was loaded with blanks it was not dangerous. A blank can kill a human just as well as a regular live round at the proximity Derren was holding it to his head.

[Samgurney88]

areas in life where our beliefs are manipulated in ugly ways. Meanwhile, the performer in me enjoys the balance of drama and mystery to compensate for that scepticism, so the audience has a belief in my skills which hopefully conflicts with the first reaction and creates an interesting ambiguity.'

[Samgurney88]

I suppose you'll be wanting evidence (other than the fact I have read his magic manuscripts and understand most of his magical doings) I shall quote his book which he wrote for the public: 'for a while now I have concerned myself with engagin people's beliefs. A large part of me wishes people to retain a scepticism about what I do and apply that to other

[Samgurney88]

The purpose of 'explaining' the lottery trick was to show people that when there is a lot of hype and extraordinary claims, they more often than not turn out to be bullshit. Everyone knows his explanation's a load of crap, but thats the point, he wants people to be more cynical of hype and 'life transforming secrets'. He is a magician- his magic is only the surface, beneath it is meaning and message. He is not stupid.

[shanedk]

Thanks for the mention! Incidentally, I've got a video coming up on the WoC.

[ranshire]

Wonderful! Can't wait to watch.