I think it's notable that Atheists keep coming back to listen to apologetics... you'd think if they were really SURE of their beliefs that they would have better things to do.
BUT: The truth is WAY DEEP DOWN they want to believe in God, and to know Him, because that's what they were created for - though they vehemently deny it.
It is interesting that you are using presuppositional apologetics to defend the Christinity worldview, and yet hate calvinism, which gave birth to presuppositional apologetics.
@caffy1976 Huh? So, because people like Van Til and Bahnsen, who are Calvinists, made presuppositional apologetics popular, you conclude that Calvinism "gave birth" to it? That souds like fallacious reasoning to me.
I'd like to see a Calvinist use presuppositional apologetics in a debate on Calvinism. They'll lose ever time, if their non-Calvinist opponent uses it back on them. I use presupp. on Calvinists all the time and it reduces them to adsurdity. My other channel: /RefutingCalvinism
@skellys3 "So, because people like Van Til and Bahnsen, who are Calvinists, made presuppositional apologetics popular, you conclude that Calvinism "gave birth" to it? That souds like fallacious reasoning to me."
How is that a fallacious reasoning?
Unlike you, both Van Til and Bahnsen apologetic method can't be separated from their theology, which is God-centered, rather than man-centered.
@caffy1976 If you can't figure out how that is fallacious reasoning, then I don't think that I can help you. Please tell me ONE REASON WHY the person using the presuppositional apologetic method has to believe in Calvinism in order to engage in it?
Calvinism is "God-centered"?! Yeah, that is laughable! Your "god" decrees/ordains ALL things, even every little sin! Such a system of theology does NOT glorify God (unless you are talking about the devil) and is NOT "God-centered"...
@caffy1976 Are you saying that my theology is "man-centered"? Please tell me how saying man has sinned by choice instead of "by nature" or because of what Adam did long ago, is "man-centered". Please tell me how making man FULLY accoutable for ALL of his sin (because he has free will) is "man-centered". I'd like to hear some REAL, LOGICAL answers to such questions...
@caffy1976 Van Till's apologetic is only 'God centered' insofar as it lays the blame for sin on God's tyrannical decree, rather than man's poor choices.
@PostITnoteGUY Sorry, but the atheist worldview can't account for an absolute standard of morality at all. Only the Christian worldview can do such a thing.
Doesn't the Bible tell slaves to be obedient to their masters? Didn't God order men, women, children and animals to be killed in the Bible? Doesn't the Bible tell women to keep silent in the Church? Did we need a law giver to tell us that these teachings are outdated? Modern humans did not need a God to teach us to strive for higher legal, social and moral values than what these biblical teachings advocate.
Sure, the Bible says those things. Are you saying that those things are "wrong"? What standard are you using to say that those things are "wrong" and "outdated"? Who or what gave you that standard. If someone said that those things were right and you said they were wrong, who would be right? How do you figure out who is right?
Speaking as a woman, I will say this. Not speaking in church refers to women not taking on a pastoral leadership role. It was laid out in Gen 3. A man is to be leader, protector, & provider, & a woman's role is that of helpmate & mother. It's the natural order. Usurping men of their God-given roles has been the basis for much of the chaos we see in society today. Combine that with a man's failure to come under the will of God & rise up & BE the Godly leader of his home exacerbates the chaos.
Expounding upon what I have said, to be the "protector" is not just physical in nature, but includes protecting a woman's emotional well-being & guarding her heart by a man guarding his own eyes from the purveyors of porn & the sin of lust. Mental adultery. Isn't that a prime example of God's wisdom in higher social & moral values? Men have failed miserably in this role. There would be no product if there were no market for it. True Godly men rise above it & we women truly honor them for it.
Carl~ An excellent explanation of slavery in the Bible can be found at gotquestions(dot)org. It exceeds the 500 word limit here a bit, so use the search box there and type in, " "Does the Bible condone slavery?" You might be surprised that it does not - at least not what YOU think of as slavery. A very helpful site that includes text references.
Ahhh - just another "doulos" here. (A slave; a willing "bondservant" - - - for Christ's sake.) Those of us who know Christ, know freedom.
Also, it was the application of Biblical principles that ultimately led to the overthrow of slavery, both in ancient Israel & in America. Israels liberation from slavery in Egypt became the model for the liberation of slaves in general. It is my prayer that the world will wake up to the liberating biblical truth that all people are created by God with innate equality. (Genesis 1:27; Acts 17:2628; Galatians 3:28)
In answer to "Didn't God order men, women, children & animals to be killed in the Bible?"
Animals - again go to gotquestion(dot)org and type in ""Why did God require animal sacrifices in the Old Testament?"
Killing of people? No. "Thou Shalt Not Kill." But much ado has been made over Obama's reference to the stoning of a "child." He misunderstood the meaning of the text. A closer examination turns his moral pretensions upside down. Again, too long to post here. Want Pvt. Msg.?
In the Gospel of Luke, (4:14-22) Jesus entered the synagogue in Nazareth and read from the book of the prophet OT Isaiah, citing, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because He anointed me to preach the Gospel to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim the release to the captives, and recovery of sight to the blind, to set free those who are oppressed, to proclaim favorable the year of our Lord. All eyes were fixed on Him. He then said, Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing."
To say that logic can't exist in a world without God is ridiculous.
I think you're mistaken in believing that logic is transcendent. Logic is based on the uniformity of nature, not the other way around. We are able to say that a is a because that is how the universe works. In a world where this was not so, logic could not possibly have any ground to stand on. The logical absolutes do not preceed the consistent nature of the reality that they are based on.
Did you even watch the whole video? Your comments give evidence that you didn't. If you haven't then please watch the whole thing before making another comment...
If you are referring to Bahnsen and Van Til, then sure I am. It's just too bad that they didn't use it on their own theology or at least get their doctrine straight. It really is a shame...
Really Mr. Fool (Psalm 14:1)? What standard are you using to say that this is "Total & utter delusion"? Where or perhaps even more important, WHO did you get this standard from? All an atheist can really say is "I think this is total & utter delusion" or "It is my opinion that this is total & utter delusion". No atheist can EVER say ANYTHING with any kind of absolute authority. They have no absolute standard or standard giver by which to base their claims...
Excellent teacher and teaching. I hope everyone will view this more that once. These concepts are so important for the Christian to realize as we witness and preach to the lost.
That's right, unless the Christian God exists, absolute right and wrong doesn't exist. He is the precondition for morality. Yahweh doesn't arbitrarily decide what is right and wrong. He uses his infinite intelligence and the intrinsic value of Himself and humans to decide what is right and wrong. I know, you would just love to tell Yahweh that He was wrong for killing large amounts of people, but you can't! When Yahweh directly kills people or allows them to be killed, He is just in doing so...
You still aren't getting it. Read the other comment I just made in reply to you other comment. Yes, Yahweh is the ONLY proper precondition for morality, logic, reason, science, uniformity of nature, love, the principle of induction, etc.
You're not getting it. Why is something moral or immoral? Who decides what is moral or immoral? Where are you getting your concept of morality and immorality from?
What a coward you are! You removed all of your comments that prove how futile, illogical and wrong atheism is?! And then you come on here and post under a different name? Your actions show enough...
Of course you can. I am neither a Calvinist, nor an Arminian. A disciple of Christ is what I am as well, although I do prefer the name Biblinian. By the way, being a Calvinist or an Arminian doesn't automatically make someone a heretic on their way to Hell...
I didn't say it, I just agreed with someone who did say it. In my interactions with Calvinists over the past 3 years or so, here are some cult-like characteristics that I have found:
1) Unwillingness to challenge how Biblical their "orthodox" doctrines are
2) Always quoting "theologians" such as Augustine, Calvin, Luther, etc. when I am discussing the Bible with them
3) Orthodoxy is built upon councils from the past
4) Exaltation of certain modern-day preachers above the Word of God
6) Always using fear by calling people "heretics" and "pelagians" instead of just discussing the Scriptures
7) Only reading books by certain people and the refusal to read the "other sides" books
These are just a few of the things that I have seen time and again. Now, this doesn't mean that all Calvinists do all of these things or even any of these things. BUT, these are the characteristics that lead me to believe that Calvinism is "cult-like."
So, near the beginning of the video you ask how non Christians can justify their belief in logic, essentially sugesting that it needs a foundation.
But at about 43 min you give us the punch line: belief in God is justifed by, "the impossibility of the contrary." - a logical statement. If belief in God is the starting point, why bother giving it a logical justification?
Which is it: is belief in God the starting point or belief in logc?
Yes, using logic consistently requires the proper foundation or preconditions. What is your epistemology?
I don't think you understand my statement at about the 43 min. mark. Because the Christian God is the only proper foundation/precondition for using logic, I am able to make a logical statement such as that.
Belief in the Christian God is definitely the starting point, but making a logical statement in order to state why belief in the Christian God is the starting point is not inconsistent.
Would have rather of me used an illogical statement to prove my point? By the way, how do you know that my statement at about the 43 min. mark was "logical"?
I don't. I'm really trying to understand. You claim "God is the starting point" yet I don't see how logic follows from "God exists." Any justification of logic begs the question. As an example, please critique the following...
It's really quite simple. Logic is immaterial, abstract, universal and absolute. The atheistic worldview can't account for it, since they only believe in what they can experience through their five senses or empirically. However, those who believe, "in the beginning the Christian God", can account for these things since their worldview allows for abstract, immaterial, universal and absolute entities. Hence, the Christian God is the ONLY proper precondition for logic, morality, science, etc.
Logic is necessary; it is not possible to have a universe in which A and ~A would both be true. It was not created by god; it exists independently of god. What you are really taking issue with is an epistemology that denies that things can be known apart from direct experience. I agree with you that things can be known apart from experience, or at least before we can know things from experience, we must accept certain things as existing, such as logic or the uniformity of nature.
I think it's notable that Atheists keep coming back to listen to apologetics... you'd think if they were really SURE of their beliefs that they would have better things to do.
BUT: The truth is WAY DEEP DOWN they want to believe in God, and to know Him, because that's what they were created for - though they vehemently deny it.
lastdaysguitar 1 year ago 5
It is interesting that you are using presuppositional apologetics to defend the Christinity worldview, and yet hate calvinism, which gave birth to presuppositional apologetics.
caffy1976 1 year ago
@caffy1976 Huh? So, because people like Van Til and Bahnsen, who are Calvinists, made presuppositional apologetics popular, you conclude that Calvinism "gave birth" to it? That souds like fallacious reasoning to me.
I'd like to see a Calvinist use presuppositional apologetics in a debate on Calvinism. They'll lose ever time, if their non-Calvinist opponent uses it back on them. I use presupp. on Calvinists all the time and it reduces them to adsurdity. My other channel: /RefutingCalvinism
skellys3 1 year ago
@skellys3 "So, because people like Van Til and Bahnsen, who are Calvinists, made presuppositional apologetics popular, you conclude that Calvinism "gave birth" to it? That souds like fallacious reasoning to me."
How is that a fallacious reasoning?
Unlike you, both Van Til and Bahnsen apologetic method can't be separated from their theology, which is God-centered, rather than man-centered.
caffy1976 1 year ago
@caffy1976 If you can't figure out how that is fallacious reasoning, then I don't think that I can help you. Please tell me ONE REASON WHY the person using the presuppositional apologetic method has to believe in Calvinism in order to engage in it?
Calvinism is "God-centered"?! Yeah, that is laughable! Your "god" decrees/ordains ALL things, even every little sin! Such a system of theology does NOT glorify God (unless you are talking about the devil) and is NOT "God-centered"...
skellys3 1 year ago
@caffy1976 Are you saying that my theology is "man-centered"? Please tell me how saying man has sinned by choice instead of "by nature" or because of what Adam did long ago, is "man-centered". Please tell me how making man FULLY accoutable for ALL of his sin (because he has free will) is "man-centered". I'd like to hear some REAL, LOGICAL answers to such questions...
skellys3 1 year ago
@caffy1976 Van Till's apologetic is only 'God centered' insofar as it lays the blame for sin on God's tyrannical decree, rather than man's poor choices.
LothairOfLorraine 1 year ago
@caffy1976 I didn't think that you could actually answer my questions...
skellys3 1 year ago
@PostITnoteGUY You obviously don't understand that nature of the argument...
skellys3 1 year ago
@PostITnoteGUY Sorry, but the atheist worldview can't account for an absolute standard of morality at all. Only the Christian worldview can do such a thing.
skellys3 1 year ago
@PostITnoteGUY Because the Bible says so...
skellys3 1 year ago
@PostITnoteGUY The standard given to us by the absolute ruler of the Universe- the God of the Bible...
skellys3 1 year ago
Doesn't the Bible tell slaves to be obedient to their masters? Didn't God order men, women, children and animals to be killed in the Bible? Doesn't the Bible tell women to keep silent in the Church? Did we need a law giver to tell us that these teachings are outdated? Modern humans did not need a God to teach us to strive for higher legal, social and moral values than what these biblical teachings advocate.
carl6188 2 years ago
Sure, the Bible says those things. Are you saying that those things are "wrong"? What standard are you using to say that those things are "wrong" and "outdated"? Who or what gave you that standard. If someone said that those things were right and you said they were wrong, who would be right? How do you figure out who is right?
skellys3 2 years ago
Speaking as a woman, I will say this. Not speaking in church refers to women not taking on a pastoral leadership role. It was laid out in Gen 3. A man is to be leader, protector, & provider, & a woman's role is that of helpmate & mother. It's the natural order. Usurping men of their God-given roles has been the basis for much of the chaos we see in society today. Combine that with a man's failure to come under the will of God & rise up & BE the Godly leader of his home exacerbates the chaos.
Passiflora101 2 years ago 2
Expounding upon what I have said, to be the "protector" is not just physical in nature, but includes protecting a woman's emotional well-being & guarding her heart by a man guarding his own eyes from the purveyors of porn & the sin of lust. Mental adultery. Isn't that a prime example of God's wisdom in higher social & moral values? Men have failed miserably in this role. There would be no product if there were no market for it. True Godly men rise above it & we women truly honor them for it.
Passiflora101 2 years ago 2
Carl~ An excellent explanation of slavery in the Bible can be found at gotquestions(dot)org. It exceeds the 500 word limit here a bit, so use the search box there and type in, " "Does the Bible condone slavery?" You might be surprised that it does not - at least not what YOU think of as slavery. A very helpful site that includes text references.
Ahhh - just another "doulos" here. (A slave; a willing "bondservant" - - - for Christ's sake.) Those of us who know Christ, know freedom.
Passiflora101 2 years ago
Also, it was the application of Biblical principles that ultimately led to the overthrow of slavery, both in ancient Israel & in America. Israels liberation from slavery in Egypt became the model for the liberation of slaves in general. It is my prayer that the world will wake up to the liberating biblical truth that all people are created by God with innate equality. (Genesis 1:27; Acts 17:2628; Galatians 3:28)
Passiflora101 2 years ago
In answer to "Didn't God order men, women, children & animals to be killed in the Bible?"
Animals - again go to gotquestion(dot)org and type in ""Why did God require animal sacrifices in the Old Testament?"
Killing of people? No. "Thou Shalt Not Kill." But much ado has been made over Obama's reference to the stoning of a "child." He misunderstood the meaning of the text. A closer examination turns his moral pretensions upside down. Again, too long to post here. Want Pvt. Msg.?
Passiflora101 2 years ago
In the Gospel of Luke, (4:14-22) Jesus entered the synagogue in Nazareth and read from the book of the prophet OT Isaiah, citing, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because He anointed me to preach the Gospel to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim the release to the captives, and recovery of sight to the blind, to set free those who are oppressed, to proclaim favorable the year of our Lord. All eyes were fixed on Him. He then said, Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing."
Passiflora101 2 years ago
To say that logic can't exist in a world without God is ridiculous.
I think you're mistaken in believing that logic is transcendent. Logic is based on the uniformity of nature, not the other way around. We are able to say that a is a because that is how the universe works. In a world where this was not so, logic could not possibly have any ground to stand on. The logical absolutes do not preceed the consistent nature of the reality that they are based on.
Humpipe 2 years ago
Did you even watch the whole video? Your comments give evidence that you didn't. If you haven't then please watch the whole thing before making another comment...
skellys3 2 years ago
Are you actually utilizing an idea formed and refined by...Calvinists?
Wired4Truth 2 years ago
If you are referring to Bahnsen and Van Til, then sure I am. It's just too bad that they didn't use it on their own theology or at least get their doctrine straight. It really is a shame...
skellys3 2 years ago
Total & utter delusion.
Ontologistics 2 years ago
Really Mr. Fool (Psalm 14:1)? What standard are you using to say that this is "Total & utter delusion"? Where or perhaps even more important, WHO did you get this standard from? All an atheist can really say is "I think this is total & utter delusion" or "It is my opinion that this is total & utter delusion". No atheist can EVER say ANYTHING with any kind of absolute authority. They have no absolute standard or standard giver by which to base their claims...
skellys3 2 years ago
No, it's addressed to the person above the comment that I made...
skellys3 2 years ago
Hey is that Kalie taking the video? She is always cocking her head to the side. Har, har!
johnmcglone4 2 years ago 3
Hahaha!
skellys3 2 years ago
Excellent teacher and teaching. I hope everyone will view this more that once. These concepts are so important for the Christian to realize as we witness and preach to the lost.
johnmcglone4 2 years ago 3
Comment removed
gusb232 2 years ago
That's right, unless the Christian God exists, absolute right and wrong doesn't exist. He is the precondition for morality. Yahweh doesn't arbitrarily decide what is right and wrong. He uses his infinite intelligence and the intrinsic value of Himself and humans to decide what is right and wrong. I know, you would just love to tell Yahweh that He was wrong for killing large amounts of people, but you can't! When Yahweh directly kills people or allows them to be killed, He is just in doing so...
skellys3 2 years ago
Comment removed
gusb232 2 years ago
You still aren't getting it. Read the other comment I just made in reply to you other comment. Yes, Yahweh is the ONLY proper precondition for morality, logic, reason, science, uniformity of nature, love, the principle of induction, etc.
skellys3 2 years ago
Comment removed
gusb232 2 years ago
You're not getting it. Why is something moral or immoral? Who decides what is moral or immoral? Where are you getting your concept of morality and immorality from?
skellys3 2 years ago
Comment removed
gusb232 2 years ago
Now that you are moving from decent dialogue to ignorant conjecture, I think I will stop wasting my time and end the conversation. Good bye...
skellys3 2 years ago
Comment removed
Greathiway 2 years ago
What a coward you are! You removed all of your comments that prove how futile, illogical and wrong atheism is?! And then you come on here and post under a different name? Your actions show enough...
skellys3 2 years ago
Of course you can. I am neither a Calvinist, nor an Arminian. A disciple of Christ is what I am as well, although I do prefer the name Biblinian. By the way, being a Calvinist or an Arminian doesn't automatically make someone a heretic on their way to Hell...
skellys3 2 years ago
Calvinism is a cult.
calvinismisacult 2 years ago 3
Amen, it sure is...
skellys3 2 years ago
Why do you say that.
the13thof12 2 years ago
Why do I say what?
skellys3 2 years ago
Why do say that Calvinism is a cult?
the13thof12 2 years ago
I didn't say it, I just agreed with someone who did say it. In my interactions with Calvinists over the past 3 years or so, here are some cult-like characteristics that I have found:
1) Unwillingness to challenge how Biblical their "orthodox" doctrines are
2) Always quoting "theologians" such as Augustine, Calvin, Luther, etc. when I am discussing the Bible with them
3) Orthodoxy is built upon councils from the past
4) Exaltation of certain modern-day preachers above the Word of God
skellys3 2 years ago
5) They consider Calvinism "the gospel"
6) Always using fear by calling people "heretics" and "pelagians" instead of just discussing the Scriptures
7) Only reading books by certain people and the refusal to read the "other sides" books
These are just a few of the things that I have seen time and again. Now, this doesn't mean that all Calvinists do all of these things or even any of these things. BUT, these are the characteristics that lead me to believe that Calvinism is "cult-like."
skellys3 2 years ago
you are boring. please remove video tags that don't apply to your video, thanks
laggynewbie 2 years ago
I'm not trying to excite you. All tags I have put on this video apply to the video...
skellys3 2 years ago
Thanks for the video. Helpful. God bless Brother.
BurningHearts70 2 years ago 4
Glad it was helpful to you Brother Joey. Keep earnestly contending for the faith once for all delivered to the saints...
skellys3 2 years ago
So, near the beginning of the video you ask how non Christians can justify their belief in logic, essentially sugesting that it needs a foundation.
But at about 43 min you give us the punch line: belief in God is justifed by, "the impossibility of the contrary." - a logical statement. If belief in God is the starting point, why bother giving it a logical justification?
Which is it: is belief in God the starting point or belief in logc?
Are you a Coherentist? Do you believe that...
urbanelf 2 years ago
Yes, using logic consistently requires the proper foundation or preconditions. What is your epistemology?
I don't think you understand my statement at about the 43 min. mark. Because the Christian God is the only proper foundation/precondition for using logic, I am able to make a logical statement such as that.
Belief in the Christian God is definitely the starting point, but making a logical statement in order to state why belief in the Christian God is the starting point is not inconsistent.
skellys3 2 years ago
Would have rather of me used an illogical statement to prove my point? By the way, how do you know that my statement at about the 43 min. mark was "logical"?
skellys3 2 years ago
Thanks for the response.
"What is your epistemology?"
Internalist Foundationalism
"I don't think you understand my statement..."
I don't. I'm really trying to understand. You claim "God is the starting point" yet I don't see how logic follows from "God exists." Any justification of logic begs the question. As an example, please critique the following...
premise: God exists, therefor...
conclusion: God does not exist
urbanelf 2 years ago
It's really quite simple. Logic is immaterial, abstract, universal and absolute. The atheistic worldview can't account for it, since they only believe in what they can experience through their five senses or empirically. However, those who believe, "in the beginning the Christian God", can account for these things since their worldview allows for abstract, immaterial, universal and absolute entities. Hence, the Christian God is the ONLY proper precondition for logic, morality, science, etc.
skellys3 2 years ago
Logic is necessary; it is not possible to have a universe in which A and ~A would both be true. It was not created by god; it exists independently of god. What you are really taking issue with is an epistemology that denies that things can be known apart from direct experience. I agree with you that things can be known apart from experience, or at least before we can know things from experience, we must accept certain things as existing, such as logic or the uniformity of nature.
ssbchic71 2 years ago
Are you asserting that logic is "a priori"?
skellys3 2 years ago
Yes.
ssbchic71 2 years ago
Please tell me how that works. That is impossible...
skellys3 2 years ago
presuppositional apologetics LOL!
CognosSquare 2 years ago