Real Utopia-Left Forum '08: Michael Albert (1/3)

[nocturnezero]

CLIFFHANGER.

[SweetDissident]

The idea that "people should have a say in decisions in proportion to the degree we're affected by them." Sounds like freedom to me.

[SweetDissident]

I don't think socialist ideals are bad, per se, perhaps it is "state socialism" that you refer to, which isn't really a solution. The problem with capitalism is: it creates a hiearchy based on wealth, doesn't it? Well, that's classist, and wrong. It's wrong because people suffer, as they suffer now. There is no denying that corporate greed, and governmental complicity w/ it, are culpable for many societal ills. The idea that capitalism is democratic is false. Capitalism is oligarchical.

[SweetDissident]

Thank you Chomskyan for posting these videos re: the Real Utopia!!! Thank Goodness for You Tube! I was just looking at this on ZNet, way to go, man!

[immanent]

Prefaced by "an alternative to oppression..."

"central institutions"

[immanent]

I can't watch anymore. Every sentence is an affront to the basic principles of freedom and the ideals that the country was founded on.

I reject this type of rhetoric. Sure there are countless avenues, implementations, and instruments to struggle for socialist utopia.

Newsflash: it doesn't work. Incentive based markets and free people represent the most humane and efficient distribution of goods/wealth.

None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.

[SweetDissident]

(re: immanent's comment that the Real Utopia is an affront to freedom)immanent, that is simply not true. It is, perhaps an affront to capitalism, which is an affront to freedom. And we have all been lied to for so long, by the two percent of people that capitalism truly rewards, that we believe lies as truth. You are an apt pupil of propaganda (our news media, and inbred acceptance of "there is no alternative"), my friend, wake up!

[immanent]

The capitalism I desire is one in which free markets are predominate. The most disturbing lie I've been told by mainstream media is that we LIVE in a country with free markets.

This absolute distortion allows for blame on corporations and profits, while dumbing people into thinking more regulation is necessary. ultimately the end result is corporatism/fascism sold under the auspices of socialism. NONE of which I want, and were never meant for this country.

[SweetDissident]

True, that. (I'm not proposing state socialism, either, but a Participatory Society). But what about "fair trade," as opposed to so-called "free trade?" Free trade in itself isn't bad; but the un-fair free-trade agreements made with some developing countries don't help anyone, nor are "free" to anyone, but the Greedies.

[immanent]

Precisely. Free Trade Agreement is a misnomer and distortion, like so much else. Theres nothing evincining anything free about agreements such as NAFTA, CAFTA, etc. that are passed off as "open/free." They are government managed trade deals designed to benefit large international corporations.

Once again, we are bitten by corporatism.

Government assumes a regulatory role counter to free market capitalism, corporations allied with government write the regulations, and we lose.

[SweetDissident]

True, it's fair trade, not "free" trade, which will save the day, so to speak. =)

[immanent]

why not try truly free trade, which treats individuals and small business on equal footing as large internation corporations?

Thats the route we haven't tried. Fair trade sounds like more government managed trade, but somehow more equitable.

Allowing the government to decide anything is inviting the influence of monied interest to decide what is "fair" and what is not.

[Crustanarchy]

@immanent We tried "truly free trade", ever hear of child labor, disgusting poverty, and the rise of wage-slavery? Where do you think the 8-hour day came from? "Truly free trade" means truly unaccountable trade in reality.

[blaziermissy]

@Crustanarchy True..free trade has also never guaranteed "fair" trade.

[johnkfitzpatrick63]

"incentive" = suffering

[immanent]

incentive = suffering when you buy the big lie that we live in a free market environment.  In a truly free market, everyone who even half-asses it can make it, while those who work harder and smarter are rewarded. Sure some people will fall through the cracks, but Americans are uniquely compassionate; charity and volunteerism will take care of those as every one will be much wealthier.

What you are saying is:

egalitarianism > freedom

I couldn't disagree more.

[SweetDissident]

Dear Immanent, "fair trade" isn't an idea in my head, it exists, and it's not government managed to my knowledge. It considers the foreign countries we trade with, their workers, all of it. Our so-called "free trade" agreements are not always fair, and more than once, the U.S. has overthrown democratically elected leaders in foreign countries for "not playing ball" with us. Allende and Aristide, to name two. We're now going great guns after Chavez in Venezuela, maligning him in our press.

[immanent]

my problem with "fair" is that it is open to interpretation. What is fair to some isn't fair to others. There is no such argument about "free." It has a very singular definition, "to be unincumbered." Truly FREE trade, that isn't just regulation to constrain small/individual enterprise, is the truly fair way to have it. You don't tell me how to barter and transact business with anyone in the world, and I won't tell you how to run your business either.

[immanent]

And while I am no fan of Chavez restraining the free speech and entrerprise of his countrymen, I could understand some paranoia and suspicion about his opposition in Venezuela being truly free maket advocates.

The U.S. govt. is indeed hypocritical in the mainstream media coverage, diplomatic stance, and covert operation departments. Its hard for me to guess if Chavez is truly well-meaning, but as a non-interventionist, I'm all for getting our freakin' noses out of Venezuelan affairs.

[SweetDissident]

immanent, fair trade has been interpreted and is a working policy. I would love to give you the link, but i can't here on comments. For example, there are fair trade products one can buy, etc. Chavez is maligned in our press, and so we misunderstand a great deal. His horrid crime is wanting to keep the resources (petroleum)of his country for the people there to prosper from, instead of handing it over to us, at our demand. He does not want his free country to end up a "colony of the u.s."

[jumpnjza2]

Need is the most imperious of masters.

[silversalvo]

Interesting. Thanks for posting.