I think it is great that you are finding all of these fantastic races that I read about years ago. Do you happen to know if there is a recording of Walker breaking the WR for the mile in '75?
@inmanmark It definetely exists...I've got a clip of the home stretch (in B/W).Who owns the originals and how you get to see them is a mystery! Normally blame the BBC,but who knows!!?Hopefully before I croak it all these races will be available online in high quality. You can only dream....
Glad you're enjoying the old footage.Keep thinking I've nearly run out and then find a few more!
yes your right, is there really a benefit at this speed drafting i know in cycling its huge but running also eh, i never ran to anywhere near this level so im seriously asking probably obvious question. ovett was drafting coe in moscow but couldnt come close, seb was too fast last 100 i know, but ovett never got close even drafting
@markgregamy Drafting benefits at this level are supposedly (according to several experts on LetsRun and other boards) worth about 0.5 secs every 200m! To get full drafting benefit, the athlete should be directly behind (not running wide on the athlete in front's shoulder) and within about 2-3m. Anything more than about 4m and the benefit is almost gone. That is why Coe's 3:31.9 Stockholm run was worth so much faster, notwithstanding the ridiculous pace.
A record attempt at 1500/mile wouldn't expect drafting on the last lap, but certainly up to 1100/1200m. Coe had no drafting or pacing after 200m in that race, so you can straight away take 2.3secs off his end time. When Ovett ran his 3:48.8 Mile in 80, he had no drafting from about 1000m, so we can knock 0.5 off his final time had he been paced to the bell.
@deano27671 Good to see these discussions...got to say,the more various pacemaking patterns are discussed the more I appreciate Bayi's '74 run.Who else could you compare?Landy or Keino,maybe?Walter George?!!:)
Ovett i always sensed never really killed himself, he had lots left there, Coe sometimes looked as though he was bambi at finish, legs gone total exhaustion , as he gave every ounce. Im Ovett fan more than Coe but as i get older and check these races, coe looked to give more energy always. ovett eased off many times, coe left it all on the track like Bannister did. ovett more talent than Coe but coe worked harder is my opinion.
@markgregamy I agree Ovett never really went "all out" in many of his races, but I think he was giving it his all in the closing stages in most of his world records; e.g the Mile in 81. The problem with Ovett is that he lacked the focus of Coe went front running from a long way out. He didn't seem to have the desire to dig that bit deeper, as Coe did at times. I disagree with what you say about Coe. He was hardly about to collapse a la Bannister, even in his WR runs.
Most of the time, even in fast races, he hardly looked even winded at the end; e.g 81 Mile WR in Brussels or LA final, which was almost WR time. The other factor that skews comparisons between them is the fact that Ovett usually made his kick 200m out, and had got a gap by the home straight, and then was able to "coast it" somewhat. Coe usually left it to the last 100m (which was more often faster than Ovett's last 100m) and sometimes would give more than Ovett in effort to the end.
I don't think, IMHO of course, that this meant Coe was "all out" either. A good case in point is the World Cup 800m, where he ran the last 100m in 12.0, despite coasting through the line with a wry smile and hardly breathing. Another is the 2nd Mile Wr in 81, where he kept getting faster and faster in the last 120m. His last 100m was 13.1, but his last 40m was 5.09, which is 12.7 pace for 100m, meaning he had untapped reserves at the end and could have been giving it more from further out.
Ovett's last 100m in his 3:48.4 Mile Wr was 14.3, over a second slower than Coe's corresponding last 100m, and Ovett looked pretty strained at the end. Don't get me wrong, both were capable of much faster overall times than their pbs.
Great race. Goes to show how much faster Ovett & Coe should have run. If Wessinghage could run 3:31.58 and Hudak 3:31.96, even if that was their absolute limit, then Ovett & Coe should have been in the 3:27-3:29 range.
@deano27671 coe had a bit of help from boit, but he wasnt truly pushed ever in his records, hard for anyone to keep up with him main reason, coes 800 metres and 1000 in oslo and florence are some of the most amazing
blast it out from the front races you will ever see, as the great david coleman always said " REMARKABLE"
@markgregamy But Boit was always behind Coe in both his Mile WRs. If anything, Boit used Coe to help pace and draft him! The physical and psychological benefits of someone leading you and drafting you on the 3rd lap of a Mile Wr pace is quite considerable.
I think it is great that you are finding all of these fantastic races that I read about years ago. Do you happen to know if there is a recording of Walker breaking the WR for the mile in '75?
inmanmark 4 months ago
@inmanmark It definetely exists...I've got a clip of the home stretch (in B/W).Who owns the originals and how you get to see them is a mystery! Normally blame the BBC,but who knows!!?Hopefully before I croak it all these races will be available online in high quality. You can only dream....
Glad you're enjoying the old footage.Keep thinking I've nearly run out and then find a few more!
ARRISIPPY 4 months ago
yes your right, is there really a benefit at this speed drafting i know in cycling its huge but running also eh, i never ran to anywhere near this level so im seriously asking probably obvious question. ovett was drafting coe in moscow but couldnt come close, seb was too fast last 100 i know, but ovett never got close even drafting
markgregamy 4 months ago
@markgregamy Drafting benefits at this level are supposedly (according to several experts on LetsRun and other boards) worth about 0.5 secs every 200m! To get full drafting benefit, the athlete should be directly behind (not running wide on the athlete in front's shoulder) and within about 2-3m. Anything more than about 4m and the benefit is almost gone. That is why Coe's 3:31.9 Stockholm run was worth so much faster, notwithstanding the ridiculous pace.
deano27671 4 months ago
A record attempt at 1500/mile wouldn't expect drafting on the last lap, but certainly up to 1100/1200m. Coe had no drafting or pacing after 200m in that race, so you can straight away take 2.3secs off his end time. When Ovett ran his 3:48.8 Mile in 80, he had no drafting from about 1000m, so we can knock 0.5 off his final time had he been paced to the bell.
deano27671 4 months ago
@deano27671 Good to see these discussions...got to say,the more various pacemaking patterns are discussed the more I appreciate Bayi's '74 run.Who else could you compare?Landy or Keino,maybe?Walter George?!!:)
ARRISIPPY 4 months ago
Ovett i always sensed never really killed himself, he had lots left there, Coe sometimes looked as though he was bambi at finish, legs gone total exhaustion , as he gave every ounce. Im Ovett fan more than Coe but as i get older and check these races, coe looked to give more energy always. ovett eased off many times, coe left it all on the track like Bannister did. ovett more talent than Coe but coe worked harder is my opinion.
markgregamy 4 months ago
@markgregamy I agree Ovett never really went "all out" in many of his races, but I think he was giving it his all in the closing stages in most of his world records; e.g the Mile in 81. The problem with Ovett is that he lacked the focus of Coe went front running from a long way out. He didn't seem to have the desire to dig that bit deeper, as Coe did at times. I disagree with what you say about Coe. He was hardly about to collapse a la Bannister, even in his WR runs.
deano27671 4 months ago
Most of the time, even in fast races, he hardly looked even winded at the end; e.g 81 Mile WR in Brussels or LA final, which was almost WR time. The other factor that skews comparisons between them is the fact that Ovett usually made his kick 200m out, and had got a gap by the home straight, and then was able to "coast it" somewhat. Coe usually left it to the last 100m (which was more often faster than Ovett's last 100m) and sometimes would give more than Ovett in effort to the end.
deano27671 4 months ago
I don't think, IMHO of course, that this meant Coe was "all out" either. A good case in point is the World Cup 800m, where he ran the last 100m in 12.0, despite coasting through the line with a wry smile and hardly breathing. Another is the 2nd Mile Wr in 81, where he kept getting faster and faster in the last 120m. His last 100m was 13.1, but his last 40m was 5.09, which is 12.7 pace for 100m, meaning he had untapped reserves at the end and could have been giving it more from further out.
deano27671 4 months ago
Ovett's last 100m in his 3:48.4 Mile Wr was 14.3, over a second slower than Coe's corresponding last 100m, and Ovett looked pretty strained at the end. Don't get me wrong, both were capable of much faster overall times than their pbs.
deano27671 4 months ago
Great race. Goes to show how much faster Ovett & Coe should have run. If Wessinghage could run 3:31.58 and Hudak 3:31.96, even if that was their absolute limit, then Ovett & Coe should have been in the 3:27-3:29 range.
deano27671 4 months ago
Having Wessinghage pace and draft him from 1000m to 1350m certainly helped "jack" the time up there. Coe never had that help in his WR attempts.
deano27671 4 months ago
@deano27671 coe had a bit of help from boit, but he wasnt truly pushed ever in his records, hard for anyone to keep up with him main reason, coes 800 metres and 1000 in oslo and florence are some of the most amazing
blast it out from the front races you will ever see, as the great david coleman always said " REMARKABLE"
markgregamy 4 months ago
@markgregamy But Boit was always behind Coe in both his Mile WRs. If anything, Boit used Coe to help pace and draft him! The physical and psychological benefits of someone leading you and drafting you on the 3rd lap of a Mile Wr pace is quite considerable.
deano27671 4 months ago