LIVE FROM TRIPOLI (HANDS OFF LIBYA 2) - Marcel Cartier

[WiwiTrables]

LONG LIVE LIBYA FREE C★

[owilson2]

I love Marx, Lenin, Trortsky, Luxemberg and Gramsci

[glorydproductions]

WOW PAC WOULD BE PROUD

ITS STILL REAL RAP ARTIST OUT THERE

[massarde9591]

★★★★★ WONDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDERRRRR­RRRRRRRRRFULLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL.



[waladlibya]

HANDS OFFFFFFF LIBYAAAAAA :) IMAZING SONG ..

[Revmind84]

HANDS OFF LIBYA PART 3 TO COME SHORTLY.... THE ICC'S HISTORICAL ROLE NEEDS TO BE SPOKEN OF. WHY ISN'T GEORGE W. BUSH THE ONE FACING TRIAL FOR MASS MURDER? HOW IS IT THAT AN ARREST WARRANT CAN BE DRAWN UP WITH NO ACTUAL EVIDENCE? WHAT IS THE IMPORTANCE OF GADDAFI'S ATTEMPT TO CREATE AN AFRICAN CURRENCY BASED ON GOLD IN THE CURRENT ASSAULT ON THE COUNTRY?

[DESINFORMEZoVOUS]

good

[tyberzann378]

Shame! Neo-Stalinists artists like this will only delay their own agenda, not the Libyan Revolution. Real leftists stand with Benghazi & Misrata. Drive the regime into the sea!

[Revmind84]

@tyberzann378 So you're saying that "real leftists" support the imperialist countries, and that the imperialist countries support "real leftists"? Something is strikingly incorrect about that picture. Oh wait, history contradicts it.

[surj33t]

Viva Gaddafi! Long live the REAL Libyan revolution since 1969! Fuck NATO and their murderous CIA "rebels".

[alphasex5]

Excellent!! Thank You! ♥ Viva Gaddafi! Truth & Victory! Always!! ♥

Exposing the LIARS!! The MASS MEDIA!! NATO TERRORISTS!!

[Liberator27]

Bad track, message even worse! Go rebels!

[Revmind84]

@Liberator27 Then your name should be changed from "Liberator" to "neo-colonialist"

[Liberator27]

@Revmind84 Colonialism is dead. Gaddafi is the oppressor, he wages a war against his own people! How much does Gaddafi give you for supporting him? If you don't get money from him, you are even more stupid...

[Revmind84]

@Liberator27 I see you removed your comment where you threatened me physically. I do not receive funding from Ghaddafi. It is my responsibility as a revolutionary to oppose my government's continued plunder of the world, which at this moment manifests itself most visibly through the occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan, and the bombing of Libya. I call you a neo-colonialist because that is clearly what the so-called rebels are. They are in an alliance with imperialism to sell the country to them.

[Liberator27]

@Revmind84 The freedom figthers - Its their country... how can they colonialize their own country?

I'm sorry that I even have to challenge your views on US policy, but what is the imperialist interest of the Us in Afghanistan? There is nothing to loot, even if they wanted to.

Oh yeah they have some oil in Iraq, strangely they can sell it to whoever they want now, also China as they do for example, not just to the Us or Uk

[Revmind84]

@Liberator27 They are not "freedom fighters" or "revolutionaries", they are COUNTER revolutionaries. This can be clearly stated because of who they have aligned themselves with. NATO is their air force. When has France, Britain, or the U.S. ever not acted out of its own interests? Do you understand history? You do not understand NEO-COLONIALISM. Was Libya REALLY independent under King Idris I? When it was the poorest country in the world and the largest US base in the world was there?

[Liberator27]

@Revmind84 Responding to: "They are not "freedom fighters"

Well, I do not believe in neo-colonializm; as I said, I think you draw your conclusions from somewhere in the last century, not from a today's viewpoint.

Are you saying the rebels fight to become less independent? Who could they have chosen as ally if not Nato? Nobody else was around; you cannot be too picky if you want to topple a dictator like Gaddafi.

[Revmind84]

@Liberator27 Do you even "believe" in imperialism? It isn't something to be "believed" in an abstract way, it clearly exists. Do you not see that the majority of the African continent continues to be pillaged by the very same powers that colonized it to begin with? We can look at South Africa as a clear example. Apartheid is "politically" over, but continues to exist in practice because there was never a real break with the exploiters after the ANC came to power. Hence, today's ugly reality.

[Revmind84]

@Liberator27 NATO can never be an ally of oppressed people! It's function, its historical role, is in diametric opposition to the will of the exploited of the earth. When the struggle in Libya first broke out, I reserved any judgement. It wasn't clear initially if the rebels took on a revolutionary or counter-revolutionary character. The CIA being involved ON THE GROUND in Libya sealed it for me. Not to mention the first oil deals being made and the slaughter of black Africans....

[Liberator27]

@Revmind84 What slaughter of black africans do you talk about? How about the ppl Gaddafi slaughtered in Chad and Uganda? So if the CIA comes to your house, does that makes you an imperialist?

[Revmind84]

@Liberator27 If the CIA came to my house, it would likely be to have me murdered. I'm very clear about where I stand. But, the Libyan opposition has been working with the CIA for DECADES, make no mistake about it. This is not really a new development. Gaddafi was never forgiven by the priveleged elite (who were essentially slave owners/parasities) and the GLOBAL parasites (the same forces who are using this opportunity to re-colonize the country)

[Revmind84]

@Liberator27 Just because a state has its own flag, national anthem, etc. does NOT make it independent. Read Kwame Nkrumah's "Neo-Colonialism: The Highest Stage of Imperialism". Libya was NOT independent under Italy (obviously), but only quasi-independent under King Idris I (the fact that the "rebels" are flying the flag of a FEUDAL MONARCHY shows their reactionary character). It only became truly independent because the Gaddafi government engaged in NATIONALISATION of its own resources.

[Liberator27]

@Revmind84 You talk about the past, I talk about the present. Yes, Libya is independent now, and the nationalisation 40 years ago by Gaddafi was OK. But today, Libyas independence is not endangered, but the life of many of its citizens is, 'thanks' to Gaddafi.

Yes, the rebels use this flag, it has been used by those who fought the italian fascists. And they do not fight to reintroduce a feudal monarchy even if you like to portray them as reactionaries.

[Revmind84]

@Liberator27 Imperialism is not strictly based on accumulation of human and material resources. What is equally important is GEO-POLITICAL positioning. Are we really to be that shocked by the fact that Libya sits next door to Egypt, which was a U.S. puppet state for the past 30 years? Look at where Afghanistan is positioned globally. As far as Iraq's oil supply, this is where neo-colonialism differs from colonialism, in not just being under the control of one state, but open to multi-nationals.

[Liberator27]

@Revmind84 Gaddafi's 'independent' state was also open to multi-nationals, wasn't it?

[Revmind84]

@Liberator27 Yes, after the demise of the socialist bloc and the fact that it looked very feasible for George W. Bush to lanuch an attack on not only Iraq, but also possibly on Syria and Lybia as part of his larger game plan. However, taking a step back in rapproachment with imperialism is not the same as becoming a "PROXY STATE". What the Libyan National Council is doing at the moment clearly shows that if it comes to power it will become a puppet. You know about their meetings in D.C/Europe?

[Liberator27]

@Revmind84 Response to: "Yes, after the demise..." Gaddafi will fall soon, Libya will be free and independent. A good opportunity to travel there then, you might have to change your mind. Wouldn't you hope so, too?

[Revmind84]

@Liberator27 No, Libya will NOT be independent. Libya will be reduced to a neo-colony of the same forces that held its people in misery and poverty before 1969. I don't know how often I must re-state the basic fact that Libya has the highest standard of living in Africa today. In fact, its literacy rate is higher than that of the United States! But, before the people held the power, the country was the poorest on the planet. A few got rich while millions suffered.

[Liberator27]

@Revmind84 'highest standard of living in Africa' What does that mean, after all? With all the wealth from oil exports (to the imperialists, one could add), even a thug like Gaddafi couldn't mess up completely. And since the uprise he has shelled cities and towns in the hands of freedom fighters indiscriminately, not the best way to raise living standarts...

You should inform yourself better on the freedom fighters, many are well-trained professionals. There will be be no 'return' to 1969

[Liberator27]

@Revmind84 Well, let's put one of your previous arguments on the contrary:

What if the rebels would not have 'sided' with Nato, CIA or whatever appears in your nightmares?

Would you have supported them then?

What would you have said if Gaddafi had turned Benghazi into a second Srebrenica? (And he would have done so)

I almost guess you would have said: 'See, the imperialists does not care about the people of Libya, they just want the oil deliveries from Gaddafi to arrive in time!'

[blacktjack101]

@Liberator27 ur either a stupid traitor or a US military fagot spreading propaganda, either way, FUCK YOU bitch.

[Liberator27]

@blacktjack101 Thats exectly the kind of response I would expect from a Gaddafi thug.

At this point I would like to thank Revmind84, even as I don't think that I can convince him, he is 'at least' a worthy debate counterpart.

One more thing to add: The world is not just black and white; even if one is suspicious of the rebels and doesn't trust Nato, there is still no point in supporting Gaddafi...

[blacktjack101]

@Liberator27 a few reasons why Gaddafi deserves support

1- he was set-up and is not guilty of the lies and false accusations against him

2-Gaddafi (and Saif) mean a safe and free Libya

3-the feb17 revolt was a foreign plot and not a genuine popular revolution

4-change needs time and Libyans would suffer under any quick change in the political system

5-opposition figures are idiots and no match for Gaddafi's experience

6-Libya needs a strong leader to protect it from Western terrorists..etc

[Liberator27]

@blacktjack101

1. Of course. He is black jesus.

2. A safe Libya, where ppl are shelled, raped and tourtured by their 'own' government

3. It is a foreign plot by martian imperialists who want to enslave the human race, I guess

4. Libya has already suffered enough under Gaddafi in recent month; the 'political system' is nothing other than a most inhuman dictatorship

5. Gaddafis experience in supressing ppl is hard to top

6. Democracy is needed (believe it or not), no dictator like Gaddafi

[blacktjack101]

@Liberator27 Well if you're going to believe the controlled media and the real killers of millions of innocent people, your choice. Or do you want the truth? That's the difference.I never was a Gaddafi supporter or anything like that, but these events have proven that he is one of the greatest leaders of our time, without exaggeration. If you're interested, research the facts and you will be shocked. But stick to facts not rumours and fake videos. You'll be surprised and perhaps thank me 1 day.

[Liberator27]

@blacktjack101 A great leader? He cannot win, and he still sacrifices his ppl and prolongs the bloodshed... If he is one of the greatest, then Adolf Hitler was one, too.

What facts? Haven't we talked them through already?

[Revmind84]

@Liberator27 Lastly, before I depart for the day, thank you for being able to debate in a civil fashion, and refraining from any type of threats. Even if that type of behavior comes from someone who agrees with me, it is incorrect.

[Revmind84]

@Liberator27 How do you define "democracy"? Does it differ depending on what class holds state power? Do you wish for Libya to have a "western" style parliamentary system? What exists in Europe and the United States? The workers in these countries are beginning to see that elections are meaningless. There is no such thing as "democracy for all" in class society. If you have capitalism, you have a democracy of the bourgeoisie (or bourgeois dictatorship). This is whether or not you have elections.

[Liberator27]

@Revmind84 Democracy is not "just" elections, it also includes freedom of speech, the right to gather, seperation of powers (Legislative, Executive, Judicative), equality before the law, civil liberties and last but not least human rights.

Marx lived in 19 century europe, when most states there did not even claim to be democratic, he had no actual idea about it.

[Liberator27]

@Revmind84 Well, it is neither me or you to decide what the people of Libya want, isn't it? I think they strongly will favor democracy, every democracy is different, there is no unified "western democracy". I dont believe in with communist theory, so it is hard to convince me this way. Fact for me is: "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." Winston Churchill

[Revmind84]

@Liberator27 You're right, it isn't up to me, you, and certainly not an outside power like NATO! This is exactly the point, my friend. How are the Libyan people to have self-determination and sovereignty when bombs are raining down on them day after day? NATO is essentially the air force of the rebels at this juncture. Also, quoting Winston Churchill? You do realize he is the same man who sat on the throne of the "empire upon which the sun never set", right? That says alot...

[Liberator27]

@Revmind84 How are the Libyan people to have self-determination and sovereignty when they are attacked by Gaddafi? Nato takes only action because of Gaddafi attaks his own, take Gaddafi out and Nato leaves. Guess you won't believe me, so watch even more closely what will happen soon.

Churchill hasn't created this empire; and you could hardly expect from an Englishman at his time to give it away willingly. Luckily, times change...

I would suggest we use private messanges for further discussion...

[lxathos]

@Liberator27 ma pusi ku.. majmune!! you know very well the propaganda. only this you know.

[Liberator27]

@lxathos I do not understand your first 'sentence'. In war times, both sides rely on propaganda. It is the cause that matters; for the freedom fighters, its freedom, for Gaddafi, it is to upheld his bloody rule over the country.

[Revmind84]

@Liberator27 In the days that the so-called "uprising" began (which is now clear that it wasn't a mass popular uprising, but an outside job), I did not rush to judgement. Had it been a genuine movement of working-class people under revolutionary leadership, it likely would have been a movement to STRENGTHEN the state of the masses (i.e to reform it). The fact that the rebels began to operate in cahoots with the imperialists was the first sign of their orientation being bourgeois.

[Revmind84]

@Liberator27 There is one post you made where you speak of the Libyan opposition being comprised of "professionals". All states need men and women who are highly trained in many different fields, that is correct. But, the striking thing about the profile of these Transitional Council leaders is that their fields reveal alot of what they aim to do with the country (as well as WHERE they were trained). How is it even possible to have a degree in privatization???

[Revmind84]

@Liberator27 This is the NATO line-- that they have to bomb Libyans to save Libyans. It is not really different at all from the colonial mentality when the Europeans said it was their obligation to civilize Africans, so they carved up the entire continent for the taking. Humanitarian intervention is a sly lie. It was in Iraq, Somalia, Vietnam, Panama, Cuba, and every other country in the world where they have intervened. It simply provides a "moral justification" to get exactly what they want.

[Revmind84]

@Liberator27 Also, many "human rights groups" have now retracted their statements, saying indeed that there was no evidence whatsoever of Gaddafi forces shelling Misrata, Benghazi, or any other place in the eastern part of the country, for that matter. In Iraq, it was "weapons of mass destruction". In Libya, it is the government's "war crimes". You should read up more on the history of Yugoslavia, as well.