Ruby Payne Does Not Understand Poverty

[rawthoughts]

I repeat, there is not one reputable scholar supporting Ruby Payne's book on poverty.

[rawthoughts]

The young man in the video is accurate on his assumptions. 

[rawthoughts]

Ruby Payne has not produced any scientific data to her claims. By the way, I'm a reading instructor in postsecondary education and her book is swiftly discredited by literacy scholars.

[rawthoughts]

Please read the scientific article, "Miseducating teachers about the poor: A critical analysis of Ruby Payne's claims about poverty."

[Morningcoffee300]

Part 1: I read the article and I can honestly say that it is filled with opinions that I find common among some people who know nothing about the reality of poverty. For example, questioning the validity of how Formal Register can assist one experience success and isolating “truth” statements when they are to be considered a part of a “possible” pattern and never an absolute.

[Morningcoffee300]

@rawthoughts Part 2: I have nothing to gain by supporting Payne or anyone else for that matter. The way I see it, some things work and some things don’t. Payne’s research works. Her critics often point to flaws with little to no regards to actual suggestions or strategies that I find actually work. The day I find a more complete approach, I will use it. However that day has yet to arrive.

[rawthoughts]

@morningcoffee300 You stated, "More and more research has been done by a wider range of professionals and Dr. Payne’s work has gained support from both practitioners and theorist." Would you mind providing the literature? I'd like to view it.

[Morningcoffee300]

@rawthoughts Some is mentioned in Two books are Teaching Boys Who Sturggle in School, and Poverty is Not A Learning Disability. There are just to many to mention. However, speak to people who grew up in poverty and read Dr. Payne's book.You will find the very best in profound insight.

[rawthoughts]

@Morningcoffee300 I sincerely doubt Ruby Payne's (non-scholarly ) book was cited in a positive manner in any empirical research literature. In fact, there exist no literature that support her book as evidence-based. I am wondering, Did you read these suggested materials? And if so, please provide cited page numbers for Payne's book endorsements. Cheers,

[Morningcoffee300]

@rawthoughts You asked for examples of research that supported Payne’s work. I gave it to you. You still downplay the significance of the work. I have nothing to offer beyond proof. Move on. 

[rawthoughts]

@Morningcoffee300 Sir, your submission of articles do not denote factual evidence. Frankly, the theoretical literature refuting Payne' assertions are overwhelming. I would simply ask that you submit Payne's scientific data. Thus, if you cannot present such a material you are only speculating. As such, you're correct, I am moving on from a person unwilling to produce theoretical evidence from the author (i.e., Payne).

[Morningcoffee300]

@rawthoughts Part 1 After 24 years of working with people in poverty, I think my practice trumps theory alone. Experience has taught me that articles written by professors who are pressured to perform under a “publish or perish” environment do not impress me when they simply attack someone’s work without practical application.

[Morningcoffee300]

@rawthoughts Dr. Payne puts practical action to the work of Reuven Feuerstein, Eric Berne, Daniel Goldman, Maria Montoya Hammond and other well respected masters in their perspective fields.

[Morningcoffee300]

@rawthoughts Again I stress, if you talk to people who grew up in poverty (not just financial poverty) an overwhelming number of them identify with Dr. Payne’s descriptions. To date I have worked with over 4000 families who live in poverty or have a intimate background in poverty. To NOT honor their words and experience over theorist would be to exercise arrogance and tremendous ignorance.

[rawthoughts]

@Morningcoffee300 Sir, I grew up in poverty (i.e., social, academic, affective characteristics, psychological) in Chicago, Ill. My mother also grew up with similar poverty tenets in Memphis, Tennessee, as well as, her parents. And also, our distinct relatives were slaves who died in such poverty. In fact, the neighborhood for which I was raised since the early 60's continues to rest in poverty. Why imply such negative terms (i.e., arrogance, tremendous ignorance) to my character?

[edom7]

Hmmmm, the work of numerous professionals with education and experience, or the rantings of someone who lacks both, and is not capable of significant degrees of rational intellectual thought, who should I listen to?

[Morningcoffee300]

I agree that describing the poor as "beggars always in need of charity" is insulting. But you said she said that. She did not say that. Again, did you read the book?

[jct19122]

I had a good initial impression when i started to watch your video but then as you rambled on and I back tracked into Payne's book. You are picking and choosing clauses and phrases and using them out of context and use them to push your own agenda. If consider yourself so well versed on the issue of poverty (not) why don't you write a paper to disprove Payne's book and put your money where your moth is. I bet you are a selfrighteous student at your school isolated and held in low regard.

[jct19122]

I had a good initial impression when i started to whatch your video but then as you rambled on and I back tracked into Payne's book. You are picking and choosing clauses and phrases and using them out of context and use them to push your own agenda. If consider yourself so well versed on the issue of poverty (not) why don't you write a paper to disprove Payne's book and put your money where your moth is. I bet you are a selfrighteous student at your school isolated and held in low regard.

[Sychotic1]

@jct19122 I wonder where is "moth" is. Actually this book is crap and full of prejudice. I don't understand why it is marketed to teachers.

[Morningcoffee300]

If you read the book and listen to this guy, it shows that he does not know what he is talking about.

[JohnWittle]

@Morningcoffee300

You have been posting comments on this video since October 2009. It is now August 2011. You have made some arguments which are legitimate and I am totally okay with those comments, but now it seems like you are trying to simply discredit me through immense volume.

[Morningcoffee300]

@JohnWittle I still work with people who live in poverty and still find your video offensive and based on ignorance and inexperience. More and more research has been done by a wider range of professionals and Dr. Payne’s work has gained support from both practitioners and theorist. As long as this video is posted expected criticism.

[eeeeeeeli]

(cont.)There is a landmark study published in book form as "Meaningful

Differences" which collected amazing data on child development across

class groups based on language and cognitive development.

I have taught in many school districts, in many classrooms, and have

seen this dynamic play out. I saw it directly as a kindergarten

teacher, and at the high school level. (cont.)

[eeeeeeeli]

(cont.) So essentially you have neighborhoods with incredibly high levels of social capital, which inevitably results in high levels of human capital. And then you have neighborhoods with incredibly low levels of social capital, which result in low human capital.

Ruby Payne doesn't back her writing up with data. But there is actually a ton of data on the process of human and social capital, and how this determines development from birth (even before birth) through old age.(cont.)

[eeeeeeeli]

(cont.) So for instance drug addiction -a deficiency in human capital - can be much more devastating to someone with low social capital; the support systems that would allow one to overcome it simply do not exist.

Of course, these forms of capital exist within larger institutional frameworks. One of the most powerful, I would argue, is our system of property markets. Neighborhoods are defined by housing values. This creates highly segregated class structure, especially in education.(cont.)

[eeeeeeeli]

(cont.) Everyone in society can be placed on this spectrum. It is a highly empirical phenomenon, and is very predictive of life success. Most importantly, just as financial capital can be leveraged into more financial capital, so too can human and social capital, with exponential results. The more you have, the easier it is to get more, the less you have, the harder it is to get more. (cont.)

[eeeeeeeli]

(cont.) Well, firstly I think the better way of framing the discussion is in terms of human and social capital. Human capital is essentially everything we learn how to do in the world - our intelligence and cognition, our social skills, our knowledge, etc. Social capital is that which we have access to that allows us to leverage social advantage, such as stable parents, nurturing, positive role models, access to health care, nutrition, libraries, schooling, etc.

(cont.)

[eeeeeeeli]

First off, bravo for an excellent critical examination of Ruby Payne and her influence in American education. I have come across her at various points in my educational career and while quite put off by her slick self-promotion, am somewhat conflicted about her general message.

I actually think much of what she says is very true, but at the same time it is overly broad, simplistic and - as you rightly point out - dangerously unscientific.

So, what do I agree with? (cont.)

[Morningcoffee300]

It is increasable how arrogant someone can sound when they are displaying their ignorance. We actually used this video at our school to show how some people don’t get it. It was great.

[BJLNchannel]

@bairdg3 Didn't know being a douche helped you at all.

[BlazeOrangeHornet]

Another 'youtube expert' wasting bandwidth.

You have completely misunderstood her book, you have clearly never worked with low SES people, and you have no idea what you are talking about.

[bairdg3]

I think your argument is weak at best. Your interpretation of the information in her book is, well, wrong. She is not saying that poor people are stupid, just that socio-economic status impacts a child's behavior, attitudes, and performance. I am a child of poverty who made it. Most of my friends from the projects did not. Why? I don't know. Now that I teach students from poverty, I see many of the attitudes and behaviors that she describes in SOME poor students. Not a RP backer btw.

[PlaygroundsWillLaugh]

"Only the poor can understand the shame of poverty, greater than the shame of the greatest sinner. For the sinner, vanquished by his own other self, is in one sense the victor. But the poor are truly vanquished: by their world, by their padrones, by fortune and by time. They are beggars always in need of charity. To the poor who have been poor for centuries, the nobility of honest toil is a legend. Their virtues lead them to humiliaton and shame. " - Mario Puzzo; Fortunate Pilgrim

[JohnWittle]

Describing the poor as "beggars always in need of charity" is insulting.

[PlaygroundsWillLaugh]

Oh, I see, you attend Ravenscroft, which is almost $20,000 a year for high school. (I was a St. Mary's girl for a while and send my son to private school; I'm not critical of private school.) You probably do many of the things she says someone like you would do without having any idea at all that you are doing them. But the poor kid knows you do. "You can just tell," someone told me once. A lot of poor people might not be so grateful for your pity, even if it is well-intentioned.

[JohnWittle]

@PlaygroundsWillLaugh

Actually, I attend no longer. See, even though I'm rich, I got fed up with this one situation where an extremely intelligent poor black male, with SAT scores in the 2300s and a GPA that would choke a wide-necked animal, was put into special ed when he transferred into Ravenscroft because he was black and poor. I and others dropped out in protest when they wouldn't move him into the top track based on his scores.

[JohnWittle]

@JohnWittle

this is anecdotal of course, but looking back on it it is clearly still *potent* anecdotal evidence.

[Morningcoffee300]

You have yet to prove your point. You are wrong about the book and the research. You are not different than any other attention hungry armature who rides on the coat tails of those who are in the trenches and do the work. Your comments are nothing more than the noise of a spoiled child saying, “Look at me”.

[BJLNchannel]

I'm doing a research paper on Ruby Payne at the moment. If you're not even slightly offended by some of the things she says and writes, you're obviously not effected by her generalizations and judgements.

[bairdg3]

@BJLNchannel "affected" I tthought knowing which word to use might come in handy for that research report.

[megankt798]

After reading this book cover to cover, I know for a fact that the author has never even seen an impoverished community in which very few of the 1,000 sq ft houses in which approx. 7-10 people live have indoor plumbing AND electricity, which you can find right here in the U.S. Maybe she should take a trip to south Texas and spend some times with kids from one of these communities before she decides to put poverty in a little box and explain it with unproven assumptions.

[investingsuccess]

I have found her theories of particular help when explaining to middle class managers why front line staff who may come from generational poverty will choose relationships over promotion - perhaps not wanting to be in a position of authority over colleagues they consider friends.

[investingsuccess]

I have worked with people in middle class and poverty in many workplaces as a human resources professional over the past 20 years and found that Payne's conclusions are dead on. In Canada, poverty often lands on those who are marginalized who are often of colour, but are sometimes also caucasian. Her research is applicable to anyone of generational (not situational) poverty, regardless of race.

[mschettl]

Payne is recycling "culture of poverty" arguments from a more racist time in academia when people of color were considered inherently different from whites, and white academics built "scientific" arguments around that racism. Kudos to this young man for recognizing the shallowness and weakness of her arguments!

[drkirby12]

Someone sounds a little jealous. I just finished reading the book and while I thought there were some weaknesses, I think she has described the hidden rules of poverty accurately. As a counselor how has worked with numerous individuals from impoverished backgrounds and as a community college administrator whose school serves many low SES students, her insight into poverty is more accurate than not. If you have a better framework for describing class, turn off the webcam and start writing.

[uteanne]

You would have to be able to understand that each of the characteristics you cite (out of context) are generalizations. As a sociologist, generalizations are useful for understanding various groups of people, however they cannot be applied to individuals.

Fortunately you are going to continue to learn and grow. Maybe you'll keep an open mind and actually have a discussion with Ruby Payne one day, or attend a talk...instead of tearing her down with absolutely no evidence of your own...

[Morningcoffee300]

The data search you seek is NOT under empathy. It is under achievement, building relationships, brain research, economic diversity, Registers of language, and many other topics. You over simplify the knowledge you seek. Another example of how you don’t get it. Look at the work of Ron Clark and Erin Gruwell for more popular examples. I don’t believe you work for a research firm.

[yarnies4]

Ruby Payne states in her book that the book is based on PATTERNS and all patterns have exceptions. She does not say that all of these characteristics are true of all poor people.  I felt like she wrote this book after observing a few days in my own school. This book was extremely enlightening. Anyone working with students from poverty will be able to identify with what she has to say and will be a better teacher after implementing her techniques.

[JohnWittle]

@yarnies4

The book is based on patterns. Patterns have exceptions. Alright, I can agree that this might be true; where is the *scientific evidence* that shows that these patterns actually have value? Where is the *research*? She admits she has done none. Perhaps she is right, but she doesn't deserve tax payer dollars.

[Morningcoffee300]

@JohnWittle What do you mean she doesn’t deserve tax payer dollars? Her company social workers, government agencies, and educators better understand, educate, and improve the quality of life for people in poverty. And… you misread or misunderstood her not doing research. Early on she did not but had done tons of research since. Contact Aha! Process Inc. They have lots of research to share. Or, do you just want to continue to point a finger with blatant ignorance?

[ac2317]

Payne is a genius! One of the best college texts I,ve ever read- totally pertains to some of the students that I work with, and with many of the characteristics Payne speaks about. Almost spot-on. I think critics misunderstand her. Payne is not saying everyone in poverty, but only pointing out characteristics of a culture- they are true. I'm not really interested in a study from the 60's (Gorski), I see what is happening today! Payne speaks many truths of the culture of poverty, like it or not!

[JohnWittle]

@ac2317

If you disagree with the 60's study, then before I give you my tax dollars, I'd like you to conduct some *new research* before proposing an entirely new theory that contradicts as-of-yet unchallenged research.

[Morningcoffee300]

The data search you seek is NOT under empathy. It is under achievement, building relationships, brain research, economic diversity, Registers of language, and many other topics. You over simplify the knowledge you seek. Another example of how you don’t get it. Look at the work of Ron Clark and Erin Gruwell for more popular examples. I don’t believe you work for a research firm.

[greybirdy]

Thank you.... awesome video

[IntelThief]

This video is the shit. Keep up the critical analysis!

[humanrightslover1]

John Wittle, you will go *far* in life! I am very impressed by your video, and even *more* by the way you have handled yourself in this comment section.

Sincerely,

A teacher, and mother

[mjsolomon]

Awesome. Your biggest and strongest point is that she has done no research to support her claims. She had to slow down in Texas once the state required "scientifically-based" professional development to work in the school districts here. Her ideas are anti-science. Way to go. I couldn't have said it as well.

[spyderkat]

Ruby found a gold mine speaking for a small subset of those who suffer from poverty- only her presentation makes it seem that she speaks for everyone in poverty. Teachers needing to feel that they are working towards greater empathy might read Ruby and feel they are well on their way....but its probably well on a way into more sterotypes.

[Morningcoffee300]

I keep asking what company you work for. Why is there no response?

[janisnowak]

It is sad John that you can't read Dr. Payne's work for the helpful content that contains. She certainly does not believe that poor people are less smart that rich people. She helps individuals from different economic classes understand each other - which is very helpful. Getting rid of stereotypes requires communication. I'm sorry for the experience that you are having in your school system. And I congratulate you on the video that you have created. But I don't think you understand.

[JohnWittle]

@janisnowak

How is saying that poor people cut things with knives, while rich people cut things with scissors, getting rid of stereotypes, instead of doing the exact opposite?

[Morningcoffee300]

What about not affording scissors do you not understand?

[Morningcoffee300]

@JohnWittle What is it about not affording scisssors do you not understand? And... She NEVER mentioned "Rich White People". You did that. Did you actually READ the book?

[PlaygroundsWillLaugh]

@JohnWittle I think you are reading it all far too literally without understanding the broader picture. I genuinely can't tell from your video exactly what your complaint is, either. Are you angry about stereotypes or angy that some children in your school sytem are getting special treatment? Reading her work and assuming that the viewer will grasp your intent isn't good debate, nor is sarcasm. Keeping working on it, though.

[PlaygroundsWillLaugh]

@JohnWittle P.S. If you figure out why poor people are more likely to hang their pictures close to the ceiling let us know. (From another one of her books.) I couldn't figure that one out at all.

[JohnWittle]

@PlaygroundsWillLaugh

they hang them the same distance from the floor, and their ceilings are lower? just a guess. can you link me to a study which has proven that?

[lifeasatrucker]

@PlaygroundsWillLaugh because the ceilings are usually lower

[teachersrock1231]

Dude, with all due respect, have you been in the classroom? Do you work with at-risk youth, that would be, no - I am assuming. Until you do the research, have taught for many years, or work with kids from economically disadvantaged homes, you can have an opinion - but you obviously don't know what you are talking about.  Her company, philosophy, and books are based on hard data. Please put yourself in other's shoes before you make assumptions. I agree completely with Morningcoffee300 - below.

[JohnWittle]

@teachersrock1231

There is no research. I have read every article in every AERA, Education Researcher, and Edweek for the past two years, and every article related to class demographics in the past many years, and there simply *isn't any* hard data supporting "empathizing" with students when the empathy is aimed at a stereotype rather than actual culture.

[DABreault]

@teachersrock1231 Her research is NOT based on data - it's classist and racist garbage, and she repeatedly refuses to answer to real scholars who challenge her.

[PopdaddysBBQ]

...are some people, knowing well how they think or view the world, I would NEVER put in a classroom for a couple of years to observe then ask them to write a book about what they think is wrong with education. Think about that for a moment. Payne's contribution is noted, and I am disappointed that some scholar somewhere trying to earn a masters or PhD. has not chosen either to write another work elevating or destroying her work with real data. Bewildered would be my choice over "disgusted."

[PopdaddysBBQ]

Finally, in seeing this argument, that Payne's contribution is solely anecdotal, a very dangerous pillar in which to ground an entire theory; mostly due to the experiences being subject to the arguers own cultural cognitivity or the bias of the person's experiences, in considering this book, it is a shame Payne could not take a break off speaking engagements, or EVEN hire someone to do actual research for a second book. This would give her credibility. There are some people I know I would ....

[PopdaddysBBQ]

This young man does the first thing we all do as educated scholars when handed a book that would be considered as a primary or secondary source for some kind of research; at least we better or rather for some of us failing to do so only happened once - then our professors corrected us.

WE look the the back of the book at its indexing, then its notes and sources and find whether it is good data, because it doesn't matter what is said within, if there is no adequate back up; right or wrong.

[akc3577]

During my eight years in the classroom, I've found that Payne's "formal vs. informal" register to be the most difficult aspect of her work to explain to students and parents. It has been a racial minefield to tip-toe through. Formal register is often seen as "talkin' white" and is scoffed at. I explain that neither register is right or wrong, better or worse - they both have their time and place. Taking the racial element out of it (for those I serve) is really hard to do.

[mcpeakpd]

Dr. Ruby Payne has it right.  You, obviously don't know what you are talking about. Go get a life.

[auroraslaugh]

Familiar w/ Payne (but will interloan her book to read it in its entirety to make a better judgement) thru my "work." From what I know, Payne's work more likely (albeit perhaps unintentionally) constructs additional (sanitized) barriers while creating the illusion that it knocks down others. MUCH prefer Dr. Donna Beegle's (gen pov up & outer) extraordinary work because it helps me as a middleclasser princess figure out how the hell to accomplish anything cross-culturally in my rural area.

[Morningcoffee300]

@auroraslaugh I read Dr. Beegle's work and I have attended her workshop. She and Dr. Payne say the same things. I don't see a difference.

[auroraslaugh]

@Morningcoffee300 It's interesting that you think they're identical, since their life experiences couldn't be more different. Beegle's work is, therefore, a redundancy & offers nothing orginal or of increased relevance to the work of helping people emerge from poverty? Should Beegle step aside or merely advocate that Payne's work be declared all-conclusive? The definitive and only true narrative of poverty and how to help people emerge? I'd have to read Payne's entire book and/or attend...

[auroraslaugh]

...one of her workshops to identify specifically what gives me such a strong impression that Payne is condescending & presumptuous. Perhaps it's how others (middle class professionals) are presenting their interpretations of Payne's work in their own workshops I've attended. Or perhaps it depends on whose work one has experienced first. I'm partial to Beegle because she lived in & emerged from...

[auroraslaugh]

... white gen rural pov. I would also give more respect to the work of someone who emerged from urban pov. I'd consider their work to be more relevant & credible than someone like Payne who has only ever known a middle class existence.

[olelzac]

I would have to agree with you that Payne's work seems to be a series of anecdotal stories and observations about what SHE has seen of poverty, and not necessarily basing her conclusions on data-driven studies or empirical evidence. I do find you, however, to be oversimplifying HER work a little bit, just as she tends to oversimplify the behaviors, attitudes, and values of those in poverty. Her observations do have value, just not the value that so many people attribute to them.

[Morningcoffee300]

What company do you work for and where is the research you done? I would like to see it.

[Morningcoffee300]

I am impressed that you are doing something but your posting only puts down someone else. What company do you work for? May I have a link to their research? I understand how companies measure value added. My question is how the value is actually added.

[JohnWittle]

@Morningcoffee300

Sorry. Edstar, Inc. Google "edstar publications", first hit, to see our research.

[Morningcoffee300]

@JohnWittle If you read page 10 of YOUR 07-08 report, you will find that your company, Edstar, recomends the EXACT same types of support (resources) as the ones Dr. Payne mentions. Your research supports Dr. Payne. However, your data is about what happens in class not in the homes of your students.

[Morningcoffee300]

I am impressed that you are doing something but your posting only puts down someone else. What company do you work for? May I have a link to their research? I understand how companies measure value added. My question is how the value is actually added.

[Morningcoffee300]

You do a GREAT job of attacking, judging, and defaming others yet you contribute nothing just like all the others. ALL of Rubys critics start off by saying what is wrong with her work. Then give their solutions. Result is that they repeat what Ruby says: build relationships, know your students, find their strengths, offer choices, dont confuse economic diversity with cultural diversity Gorski, Michie, and even Kunjufu dont differ from Ruby Paynes advice. They repeat what she says to do.

[JohnWittle]

@Morningcoffee300

What makes you think I don't contribute? I work for a company that is working with SAS to develope EVAAS, a system that uses real, actual statistics to predict success in various rigorous math classes. Instead of teachers being able to take a Level 4 Math EOG "black" or "poor" kid and saying "oh, they don't have enough family resources, they need remedial work", this system puts them in the top track. More than you've ever done, I guarantee that.

[Morningcoffee300]

I apologize. However, you dont refer to them. I only saw the criticism. What company do you work for? Do you have a link to their research? I am curious as to how this compares to Paynes model. I understand measuring added value but now does your company actually add value? FYI, your reference to Black is a common misconception. Paynes reference to poverty is not about culture. People who confuse the two often get angry. Much of her research is with White communities.

[Morningcoffee300]

@JohnWittle who do you work for and where is the research?

[Morningcoffee300]

@JohnWittle You still don't answer my question. Where is the research you and the company have done?

[dmartin8199]

@JohnWittle

Great insight from a middle class white boy who writes programs for struggling math students. Wow! A math system to put low SES "back on track". I'm so glad nobody has ever thought of that before! I mean... I'm not bombarded computerized math material to help struggling students. Your contribution is designing some sort of math system? Really? That's sad.

Please volunteer to be a Big Brother to a low SES boy. Invest in his life, then you can write your own book.

[ViolentOrchid]

@Morningcoffee300 Do you understand the concept of punctuation and grammar? You can't just throw some symbols in where ever you want and call it a sentence.

"Then give their solutions, " is a sentence fragment. You meant to type "Ruby's," not "Rubys." This would have been the correct manner in which to show possession. "Result is" should have been, "The result is." "You do a GREAT--others yet you contribute," would have been written as, "You do a great--- others; yet, you contribute." Et cetera.

[iceiiw]

@Morningcoffee300

this is a stupid book imo but stupid video at the same time

[TheLharper]

Thanks John! As a 20 year educator, Ed.D. what I find a amazing is that so many educators don't get it. Yes you get it! Read Paul Gorski's articles on her work! Bravo Son!

[JohnCVermont]

Well Done & Bravo, John Wittle!

Keep up your obvious penchant for respectfully and thoughtfully challenging commonly held assumptions and questioning the dominate paradigm.

[PeterTheis]

bravo!

[Tranksdofuturo]

OMG is she crazy?

for the love of god, she discrived a student with no education... Not a student that is poor! Is it really possible for scools to use her book has rool modles?

I changed my mind, I love portuguese scools, people shold theach then to be educated a not feed steriotps...

really sorry for my ingles

[edger2006]

I gave you 5 stars because you have very beautiful eyelashes. You are so middle class. heh heh. At the U, we were read Payne and we took the good parts away from the bad. The things you read about surviving in the classes were just an example to be taken lightly so that you could ease your mind into grasping the main idea of the entire piece. There are some things all people should know to function in middle class America. You must take the good away from the bad. I really enjoyed your video

[MarjoJimbo]

You just don't get it.

[simplyletgo]

You can consider determinism, the 'scientific method' and other ideologies as means of 'understanding the world'. The weird part is that the 'scientific method' is so often considered the best way to 'obtain truth' that everyone feels they must reconcile their own ideas with 'science'. So even though Ruby Payne has no desire to include the 'scientific method' (controlled, unbiased experiments), she wants to present her ideology as 'scientific truth'.

[simplyletgo]

How can she get away with it? The same way mainstream media news can reshape 'truth' to be a mirror image of what we (the viewer) want to believe the truth is. It doesn't matter so much about whether its 'scientifically correct' or 'logically correct', so much as it matters whether it will conjure up emotional reactions and also 'sits well' with our preconceived notions. Then again, the claim I'm making now has about as much credible 'research' behind it as Ruby Payne's book.

[gstaats8397]

thanks for making this clear to everyone...i know a lot of teachers or educators think that she is a gift to everyone (those are the teachers that want an excuse to blame it on other than themselves)...but the this whole book is just racist...not classism....and if anyone can tell me the url for the research she has done to get her information in this book please let me know...i cant find any

[JohnWittle]

As she says on the first page of her book, she has been "researching" all her life, via her personal experiences, collecting allegedly objective "data" just by being around people of a lower class. In Wake county, teachers who took Ruby Payne training sessions (whether the content of the workshops taught this or not) usually used the list of Free Lunch (and therefore poor) students to determine math tracking. This is now illegal, so they have documentation on how to guess if someone is poor.

[1C7Z3H5X]

heypuffpeach,everything you rattled off is almost entirely true in most cases.and the rest,instances are quite common but perhaps not the rule.if you have the ability to not be a gay liberal and in a few years maybe still have open eyes you too will see commonalities in poor fucks and rich people

[agbenscoter]

I wish more teachers and administrators understood correlation and didn't base their arguments on anecdotal evidence. . . the certainty in ignorance of people like this kids wouldn't abound.

I teach Soc. Sci in a low-SES school and have read the book several times. Much research supports the book (almost half of the book is research or notes regarding the research).

Her philosophy isn' t a panacea, but is sorely needed in schools, churches, and other orgs that are helping professions

[vkaramazov]

I've also worked in low-SES schools for years and am pursuing a PhD to continue serving those schools. A number of scholars have gone ahead and fact checked Payne's citations. Many of her claims are either misinterpretations of the literature, or purely contradictory to the author's message. Other claims come with no citations, and are contrary to entire bodies of research. Check them out for yourself.

[JohnWittle]

You understand that your experience in a low-SES school is also anecdotal evidence. Likewise, as Ruby Payne reveals on page one of this very book, her "objective data" is little more than her own experiences dealing with her husband. She is being treated like Freud is; almost all of Freud's concepts of psychology were based off of experiments done on his daughter (small sample pool) and were later refuted. The difference is that ruby payne didn't even do any research; she just lived her life.

[Amy1349]

You don't have to agree with RP, but she does speak from some personal knowledge: She married a man who grew up in generational poverty, became close to his mother and spent a lot of time in the neighborhood. Her book is distilled from what she saw there and what her husband and mother-in-law told her about the way life there worked. I thought her book was very respectful of people in generational poverty. Her point is that they do things that make perfect sense given their circumstances.

[souprgirl1]

John, I think you are wonderfully insightful for a 14-year-old. Way to think carefully and examine the claims of a book instead of taking it all at face value.

[banchukita]

Ruby Payne has carved an industry out of ideas she's passing off as sociological, when she is not a sociologist and her 'culture of poverty' ideas were discounted decades ago. Kudos to this young man for pointing out the nakedness of the empress, and to anyone who still supports Ms Payne, please refer to the increasing number of scholarly articles in education and sociological publications that thoroughly dismantle her precepts and discredit her self-imposed 'authority.'

[kikabird]

You nailed it! RP is an elistist who makes money pushing the "poverty pimp" ideaology.

[Neanda56]

You are a Very smart young man. I don't like ruby either. I first heard of her in grad school :( . When i finished all of my studies I think I'm going to address her and her "studies" in my own series of books. You're a smart 14 year old!

[DeepTchr13]

Good critique - the only thing I really appreciate about Ruby Payne's work is it has provoked some good discussions about class issues - discussions that weren't always finding a platform. Fortunately, people who care about these things can have spirited an meaningful debate about what a load of malarkey Payne's irresponsible and dangerous generalizations are. Keep posting!

[megjoanna]

I wonder why a 14 year old can see through this so easily and yet teachers and administrators are so easily taken in.

[RodneyShaneRuss]

@megjoanna Well said. 

[LonnieAthens]

What a smart kid! This video is awesome! I do think it's amazing that the intellectual standards for material used by school teachers and social service professionals is lower than would be applied most professions. There are many works which involve actual data: why not use those?

as if the administrators are saying, "These people are just moderately intelligent, so lets give them one very dumbed down view on a complex issue, and then insist that they adhere to it unquestioningly!"

[jesswieds]

i think you are awesome! i hate ruby.

[crankkinder]

Read something interesting - a upper-middle class white neighborhood in Detroit got hit hard with layoffs from the auto industry. Suddenly there was a rise in alcoholism, abuse, violence - the "culture of poverty" markers. What if it's not "culture", but access to resources and dealing with the resulting stress?

[Jastor00]

Based on my 9 minutes of experience with this video, I think I dislike you and Ruby Payne approximately equally.

[JohnWittle]

I love how all the teachers agree with me while the general public do not.

[LittleOne8810]

I'm so sure you knew you were an athiest at the age of 5. You couldn't even read, yet you knew there was no God? Right...

[JohnWittle]

I could read at age 5.

Also, children are born atheists, and then religion is taught to them, so your argument is irrelevant.

[edger2006]

@JohnWittle Where did animals learn to worship? I mean, were did the idea of religion start? Are there other species of animals that do this type of behavior?

[JohnWittle]

Only humans worship. Our embedded belief in a creator comes from our incessant desire to find agency everywhere. We evolved this pattern of behaviour over millions of years. If we see something that might have a will of its own, or agency, it is always better in a survivalistic sense to assume it does, because agents are threats. Because of this, we now tend to see agents everywhere, even (and especially) where agency simply doesn't exist, vis-à-vis God. How is this related exactly?

[etherorr]

you are amazing.

i was a teacher for two years, and the school district that i taught for used Ruby Payne.

i read the book.

it is horrible.

BRAVO!

[cddull]

You should actually read the book, "This work is based on patterns, all patterns have exceptions"

[mckrunkjuice]

Hello john i'm sure you have a few comments like this but please explain to me why you are atheist and ur outlook upon such things as how we (humans) have came about

[JohnWittle]

Uhm. Go watch "Not Just Jesus" by Mac The Caster.

[nbm34]

williamfis. Fuck you you arrogant peice of shit.Obviously you are nothing but a Facsist prick, who in fact is more concerned about my politics than my spelling.

[SimonBorgert]

John as an Australian educator I have to congratulate you for an entertaining and inspiring post. I can only hope that the American education system is producing many more students such as yourself with the inclination to constructively critisise anything!

[calvamom]

As a teacher with several advanced degrees, I think you are fabulous. Keep doing actual thinking in spite of what school is probably throwing at you. True, your ideas will evolve as you experience more, but I think you are on the right track.

[endafax]

John... you missed what you read - she did not say rich are smarter she said different wealth classes have different knowledge basis'. I grew up lower middle class and my father in law grew up poor. He worked his tail off and became "wealthy". He and I have had conversations on these topics many times. Ponder this, the poor barter over used tvs while the wealthy negotiate business deals. Not dumb or smart - just different games/rules. Just like Ruby said. See you in 15 years.

[gofg467]

Some Ruby Payne quotes from A Framework:

"Also, individuals in poverty are seldom going to call the police, for two reasons: First the police may be looking for them..." pg 37

"The typical pattern in poverty for discipline is to verbally chastise the child, or physically beat the child, then forgive and feed him/her" pg 37

"If students in poverty dont know how to fight physically, they are going to be in danger on the streets" p100

[rivkad]

Endafax - if your father-in-law grew up poor and ended up middle class, he is probably white. Payne has no intention of appreciating a different (i.e. non-white) culture, just in stereotyping them so we can all feel sorry for them -- and feel superior by virtue of the luck of our birth.

[endafax]

rivkad - How do you explain the large # of blacks I grew up with that are now "upper class"? Have you heard the story of crabs in a bucket? You don't need a lid because as soon as one starts to climb out the others will grab it and pull it back in. As soon as I started succeeding beyond my "class" I was called a sell-out. My "friends" who had low expectations of themselves were doing all they could to project those onto me. It is not luck that picks us - it is persistence that drives us.

[onamtench]

John- As a teacher (a once poor teacher), I agree with you totally. I too am horrified that other teachers and administrators are buying in to her load of bull.

[theperfectblack]

when you do some social work and deal with a range of people from day to day, i think you will better understand where she is coming from, not agree but understand

[ntiego]

ijsut read her book yesterday..i thought it was great and having spent a lot of tine on skid row and other places...so true.

[wasserkopf61]

I am 47 and grew up in poverty.... i.e. situational poverty. I grew up with people who were from generational poverty. I married a woman who was from generational poverty. I don't know how scientific her theories are, but this woman has given the only accurate description of generational poverty I have ever read. You might want to do some additional research. Or better yet, when you are of age marry a woman from this class and do a follow up video...

[Perez3001]

It's obvious you are 14 and not poor. You don't work with people in poverty. I do. Ruby never said that people in wealth are smarter. She says that people in poverty show it differently due to life styles and therefore schools must change how they teach and identify intelligence.

[Perez3001]

Ruby never said that people in wealth are smarter. Read the book again.

[nbm34]

This stupid bitch said the middle class repair their homes the poor dom not. No question apparently that the poor can not sfford repairs like to their cars as well for example.

The so called diferences in the cultures for want of a better word is the position of class and aceess to education and wealth.

This young man has more intelligently EXPRESSED in ten minutes, REALITY than the facist neo con with the usual Dickensian claims that the poor are poor out of choice, without other factors.

[MrWilliamsfis]

You might trying learning how to spell.

[edger2006]

@nbm34 There is a range behavior as there is in poverty or classes.

[tazru333]

Agreed.

Ruby Payne is just another Neo-Calvinist Reaganite, I wonder if she is a "member" of "The Family" as well.

I will take advice from MIT, and others on the Progressive end of the spectrum. Please check out the work of Deming and others like Peter Senge who use Science in the field of Organizational Development.

The Society for Organizational Learning:

solonline(dot)org

[ajbdjm]

I know how to bail people out of jail. Is that something weathly can't do? How hard is it? I tried to understand her work but without putting the money up front the information available is very vague--and since I can bail people out of jail--I don't have enough money to buy her material. Wait, is that logical? Hmmm?

So I'll have to take your word for it.

[ThatChristian]

Just from my general observations: There are a lot of reasons why people are poor, none of which have anything to do with being able to read a menu in Greek.

[alv7494]

Careful you don't fall into your own black hole of cynicism--you might not get a chance to see if everything you know is right or not!

[JohnWittle]

I find your comment oddly unrelated to Ruby Payne. Perhaps you could more specifically point out instances that I could improve on?

[alv7494]

You're right--its not really about the Ruby Payne video. But your condescending (as former commenter described it) presentation got me to follow a couple of links...Im no philosopher, and can't debate on those areas--but athiesm, determinism...these can lead to some pretty dark places, and its possible to get lost in that darkness...thats what I meant. btw, my comment had plenty of attitude too...sorry.

[JohnWittle]

It's spelled "Atheism".

If by "dark" you mean "truthful", then sure. I will explore the truth, no matter how "dark" it may be. If newtonian determinism turns out not to be true, then that's that. I don't care whether its dark or not.

[alv7494]

thanks for the correction

[sleestack]

slightly condescending

[deitamarie]

Wow! You have wonderfully announced " but the Emperor is wearing no clothes!" Out of the mouth of babes comes the truth. I, as an educator who was once in poverty, have found Ruby to be a fake from the start. Thank you for revealing the truth of her facade so eloquently. Keep up the good work. I agree that when school districts realize what a racist fake she is, they will be embarassed by their own ignorance at giving her millions of dollars for the snow job. Thanks for getting the word out. :)

[JohnWittle]

Thanks for the comment, it's people like you who I actually make videos for.

Well, that and to read the funny comments. Like on my Pruane2 reply video. "jOHN wITTLE YOU HAVE MY hEARt <3 HRHREHEH"

Now whenever I laugh, I always think of "hrhreheh".