Lol, gfscarface is just a troll everyone, hes a cowboys fan if that helps you know why...lol, he has been doing nothing but surfing football videos, ESPECIALLY Brett Favre videos, and trolling them for about 2 years now, he is honestly the sadest excuse of a human being ever....just dont feed him guys, he goes away
Hey gfscarface: if what you saw in super bowl 24 tells you that the 49er's suck, then you are telling the world just how stupid and blind you are. Old proverb: It is better for the fool to remain silent then to open his/her mouth and revel the secret to the whole world. Learn from this. FOOL!
They were so dominate in all phases and Joe made it look so easy yes the greatest team ever and Joe broke many records that year and in this SB too !!! ;-) great memories my dad was a ram fan and I a 49ers fan !!!
@mandm916 - I was in 8th grade the year of that super bowl and a big 49ers fan, and I knew before the game started that denver had no shot of ever winning that game! It was the best day of my sports fan life.
I was in 8th grade the year of that super bowl and a big broncos fan, but I knew before the game started that denver had no shot of ever wining that game! It was the worst day of my sports fan life.
If that stupid Leon Lett wouldn't have dropped that sure touchdown for the Cowboys in SB XXVII, then THAT would've been the most lopsided Super Bowl, and my Broncos would be off the hook.
PUT BILL WALSH 49ERS IN THE 80'S AGAINST JIMMY JOHNSON COWBOYS IN THE 90'S AND WE WOULD BEAT THE FUCK OUT OF THE 49ERS. JOE MONTANA WOULD BE THRASHED BY THE DOOMS DAY DEFENSE!!
Hey, give Elway and the Broncos SOME credit. After all, the 89 49ers were one for the ages.. too much for ANY other team to handle. If you will remember correctly, the 49ers eliminated their play-off rivals with similar dispatch -- making mincemeat out of the Rams and Vikings.
dang i remember this one we got our ass literally handed to..the game ended as soon as kickoff started. brings back the worst memory in broncos SB history.
@serge014 Marino may have had a better arm than Montana, but NOBODY could perform in big games like Joe. ...if i had one big game to win, i would choose Montana over Marino anytime.
@vcrm1 You are totally correct and it is the consensus. Winning the games is what proves all around status. Montana had stats and wins and batted 1000 in super bowls 4 w -0 loss
@KingPhilip103085 I agree, I'm a Jaguars fan, but the 1980's 49ers are the best team ever, 4 super bowls in 10 years is very difficult to do, only the Steelers in the 70's were able to pull that off too, Joe Montana is my #1 favorite quarterback of all time, I like Steve Young, but Montana beat him when he was with the Chiefs, so Joe is the better quarterback, Montana all the way!!!
I went to that Superbowl...It was so boring that by mid third quarter I left the game and gave my ticket to a little black kid that was standing outside the stadium. He was in shock but I told him that it may not be worth going in to the game as the Bronco's were "stinking up the field" At least I made his day. Broncos never recovered and Montana and Rice went on to make history. 41-10..boring ass game but I could not stand that pigeon toed big chicklet toothed Elway..LOSER!!!
so your saying that joe had nothing to do with those SB wins ? let me remind you that he won 2 without jerry. so he did what Elway couldnt do and thats carry his team to SB wins. i see that your one of those could of should of guys. no matter what you say the numbers dont lie. Joe has 4 john has 2 , LET IT GO.
Next time you want to respond to someone, click on Reply. Dont be a Pussy.
Making me come back here to see if you said something behind my back & I see in your profile that you're 29 years old. Did you barely watch the NFL. And you know what I was talking about.
Switch the QB's on both teams and John Elway has 4 Rings, Maybe more.
So for you to say that Elway was not in Joe's Class is a Stupid Comment by you. Plus you respond to peoples comments without cliking on Reply.
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
all you do is cry, cry, cry. just face it Elway could not get it done until Davis came along. iam not saying he was a bad QB. he just couldnt get it done. he and Marino and every other qb/ team ran into the team of the 80's and a dynasty in the making. the 49ers. and if you cant see that then your a pussy LOL
I never said Joe had nothing to do with those SB Wins. Read my Comments carefully you Cunt. You have no Idea how the NFL & QB position works. You have been EXPOSED! prowlifik
You said in the beginning that Elway was not in Joe's league cause of this beating and I said if you switch the QB's on the team Elway would win the superbowls. Catching Up prow?
Joe was Great, the Best Ever? Thats to peoples opionion these days, there is no Cut clear Best Ever. You have to look at the whole piture.
I heard a story that Denver players refused to talk to the 49ers out in town before the game. Probably gave them extra incentive to kick the Bronco's ass!!
But I'm done with this, it's my last post. I have way more important things to do than argue with people who exalt role-players to greatness status (LOL), and have to hurl insults because they don't have valid arguments.
YouTube just seems to attract the dumbest, most misinformed people on the planet for some reason and sometimes it's funny. This time it's just sad.
I think you've made it clear to all that you're a full-fledged, babbling idiot.
You can go ahead and put your Derrick Masons and Rod Smiths in the Hall of Fame. After all, they were both more "productive" than most receivers in the HOF already.
I'll take my Bob Hayeses and Lynn Swanns and John Taylors and Freddie Solomons, guys who made an enormous impact in nearly every game they played with BIG PLAYS, as opposed to little 11 yard curl routes while their team went nowhere.
Freddie Solomon was an awesome, great great player. The people who are disagreeing with that notion in these comments are dumb cunts who don't even know what his first name was let alone how good a player he was. Shut the fuck up and fuck off.
The man was not a #1 option for most of his fucking career (that alone should tell you dumbasses how stupid you are to call him great, lol). Name ONE fucking great player who wasn't a #1 option on his own team for most of his career?
... Guess what? You can't!!! There is no such thing. You fucking morons.
#2. His production was pathetic.
#3. He won no honors in his ENTIRE career. NONE. No Pro Bowls. No All-Pro's. NOTHING. FACT!!!
EmceeNolan is just a dickhead on top of not really knowing what he's talking about. I'll give him credit for being passionate even if he's passionate about something he has no clue whatsoever about, lol.
Just the fact that he's 24 and you're like 20years older than him, yet he has the nerve to tell you you haven't seen these guys play (LOL) tells you how moronic he is. He's 24 so it's a definite that HE'S never seen these guys play!
There is nothing else to say. Let the clown think he won.
#2 LMAO. He was a 10 TD-a-season type scorer you dumb fuck. He had 7 TDs on the shitty 1979 team (in 12 games started); 8 the next two season's (in 13 and 15 games); and 10 in 1984 in 13 games. He just didn't rack up a lot of yards because he didn't get a lot of catches. We had too many other good players and not enough footballs to go around, and Walsh liked to spread it around. He maintained healthy averages every year of his prime.
LOL. He scored 10 TD's once in '84. ONCE. Do you understand what ONCE means, dumbass? Guess not. But obviously, doing it ONCE does not make him a "10-TD-a-season type scorer", lol.
What a dumbass you are.
I think that's enough for me here. You guys have no valid arguments, just useless information, incorrect information, and insults.
The only thing you've put forth is "look at his numbers," but by that same token, when you bash Freddie Solomon, you're also bashing Hall of Famers like Lynn Swann and Bob Hayes. That alone reveals the depths of your idiocy.
#3 So fucking what? Michael Vick has made 3 Pro-Bowls, as did Shaun Alexander. it's fucking meaningless. There are horrible snubs every year and overrated pieces of shit make it every year. it's irrelevant.
All those giuys made Pro Bowls because they produced well enough. Freddie never produced well enough to make a Pro Bowl. That's a fact.
Sure there are snubs, but let's be real... he didn't get snubbed 11 years in a row, lol. He just didn't produce. He wasn't a great player, and he wasn't a #1 option meaning the team he played for did not view him as a great WR. If they did he would've been the #1 WR option.
Well then your "great" receiver Art Monk wasn't "great"...because statistically-speaking, he wasn't the Redskins' go-to receiver.
Oh, and I let another idiotic comment of yours slip earlier--HAD THE REDSKINS HAD A PASS BALANCED OFFENSE? You think the Redskins were usually run heavy? How ignorant can you get?
Joe Gibbs didn't get his reputation as an offensive innovator for pounding the ball.
I read AllPro's comments and EmceeNolan took that out of context. He never actually said Jesse Solomon played for SF. He just said Jesse Solomon wasn't a great player in response to another dumbass poster, and he was right.
Don't follow EmceeNolan's stupid shit, Brett. Read for yourself, and be your own man.
I mean, how can you follow a guy that says Art Monk was overrated "numbers-wise" (LOL) considering he was the all-time leading receiver when he retired playing on a run-heavy team?
I didn't take it out of context; there was absolutely nothing in his post to indicate he had the faintest idea who the other commenter was referring to. Had he known, he either would've quoted "Jesse" (like this), written it in capital letters "JESSE," or corrected him on the guy's name. He said nothing...it just blended in with the rest of his idiotic post.
And he has absolutely nothing to back his claims. He relies on statistics like the lay football idiot (like you).
You are a FUCKING joke. All that bullshit you just said meant absolutely nothing. All you're doing now is spewing up useless information because you know you're wrong on the subject at hand.
"Oh Freddie could've been a HOF player, he REALLY REALLY COULDA!!!" LOL.
Guess what dickhead? HE WASN'T!!! End of FUCKING story. And you're the ONLY dumbass on planet earth talking about him as a great player, LOL.
Stop bullshitting. You lost. Act like a grown up and just accept it.
Oh gee, with great arguments like that, how can I possibly win?
You never saw him play and revealed the depths of your ignorance. I don't even have to do anything--you lose by default as soon as you resort to "go look up his numberz" in an argument where having seen someone play is the critical element.
Next you'll tell me to look up the numbers of Bo Jackson and Gale Sayers. I guess they weren't great either, yo!!!111
Also, Roger Craig RAVES about him in his book...but what does HE know?
Your whole lame routine consists of telling someone 20 years older than you that he never saw a player play which would be impossible as the 9ers were my favorite team at the time. But because you're a dumbass and can't read, you keep repeating a dumbass statement.
I lose nothing. I saw him play and he was not a great player. No one but you, a kid, considers him great. You have no concept of what greatness is.
I'm a 24-year-old who owns 100's of 49ers games from the era in which he played on DVD.
You're a dipshit who didn't even know what his first name was. Then on top of that, you tried to back your ignorant claim with "go look at his numberz111"
I'm far from the only one who considers him great. Bill Walsh and Roger Craig considered him great...but then, what do THEY know? Surely not as much as YOU; someone who thought his name was JESSE Solomon.
AllPro is right on this one, and it's not really a tough decision. Freddie Solomon was a decent player, but great? No. Far from it. It can be argued that if an overrated guy like Swann can make the hall why not Freddie? Thing is, Swann was actually better than Freddie and therein lies the problem for Freddie.
Rice was great. Monk was great. Solomon was just a role player, not a solid first option, low production, no pro bowls, never an All Pro.
Herein lies the problem: Like AllPro777, you are a box score stat regurgitation dolt. Football is not a sport where statistics consistently paint an accurate portrayal of what kind of player someone is. A 2 yard pass against a blown coverage that goes for 80 yards counts for more yardage than a 15 yard pass where the WR destroyed a corner one-on-one, and then broke 5 tackles for a 35 yard gain.
BTW, numbers-wise, Monk was overrated...consistency?
Stats DO matter, dumbass. There is a balance between production and intangibles. Freddie wasn't even the #1 option most of the time. That alone tells us what his own team thought of him, and that's why you have no argument here, LOL. HIs OWN FUCKING TEAM. How retarded are you?
And just stop with the name bullshit. I've already explained that.
For 24 years old you're incredibly immature, even for a 24 year old. You have a lot of growing up to do.
And it's hilarious how you continue to spew out useless information to deflect the main point, of which you're dead wrong on. Who gives a shit what Roger Craig said about Freddie Solomon? What the fuck did you think he was going to say? He sucked?
Hell Emmitt Smith gave props to Alonzo Highsmith, and Alonzo was garbage. Players on your own team are usually going to say something nice if they were friends.
EmceeNolan, all you are is a condescending asshole who thinks he knows everything.
Oh, so now it's "useless information?" You're only calling it "useless information" because it's information that proves you have no idea what you're talking about.
Roger Craig didn't just praise Freddie Solomon, he raved about him. There's a difference.
I may not know everything, but I sure as hell know more than you. But then again, pretty much everyone knows more than an unfathomable idiot such as yourself.
Yeah, "mature" people write like you and call things "retarded" and the like. LOL...are you fucking serious, idiot?
Freddie wasn't the "#1 option"--the running game was. In the Bill Walsh offense, the flanker was automatically the "go-to" guy. That's the way it was structured. Solomon was the split end because he had the rare talent required to excel at that position.
What football novices such as yourself fail to understand is that stats don't all count the same.
There's 3 catches for 43 yards and then there's THREE CATCHES for FOURTY THREE YARDS. That game could either be miserable or amazing. Or it could be ordinary.
If it's a go-to receiver who had the ball thrown his way 6 other times and he dropped 3 of those 6 passes, he had a poor performance and was basically shut down.
If the receiver had 4 balls thrown his way and he caught 3 of them, and they were for 16, 15, and 12 yards, and each of those catches came on a scoring drive in a 24-20 victory, and on two of them he broke several tackles to pick up extra yardage on 3rd down, he had a great game.
If Dwight Clark catches 8 balls for 98 yards in a 34-17 loss, and 80 of his yards are in garbage time (in the 4th quarter, down by 20+ points), did he have a better game than Solomon had in the aforementioned example?
The lay football fan doesn't understand this concept, and it's quite sad.
Additionally, both of you are obviously completely oblivious to the fact that football was significantly different in the 70's than it was in the 80's, and in the 80's than it was in the 90's, and so on.
Corners used to be able to maul receivers. Teams used to run the ball 60+% of the time. Offensive systems weren't nearly as advanced. Before 1978, teams only played 14 games in the regular season.
I don't think anyone is "oblivious" to an elementary fact that football has differences in different era's.
Bottom line is, nothing you posted negates the fact that Freddie Solomon wasn't a great player. It's just your opinion but you're alone in that opinion, and at 24 years old I can't see what your opinion could be based on since Freddie retired sometime around when you were born.
You couldn't have seen him play one live down, and if you did you were only like a few mos to a yr old.
And I don't care what era you play in. If you play 11 years and only produce 371 catches, you weren't that good. That's an average of 34 catches a year, lol. C'mon dude.
Do you realize how many receivers even before Freddie's era that had better numbers?
I love how you insult people because they don't agree with you. Very immature.
Yeah. Right. Lynn Swann wasn't that good either because he didn't have a lot of "catchezzzz."
371 catches? Guess who else had 371 catches? BOB HAYES
But I know, I know...they need to kick Bob Hayes and Lynn Swann out of the HOF because they didn't have the hollow stats for your shallow, idiotic ass.
Don Hutson only had 488 catches in his career. I guess he wasn't that good either.
Otis Taylor only had 410 catches. I guess he wasn't that good either.
Now you're comparing fucking Bullet Bob Hayes, an ALL-AROUND offensive threat to Freddie Solomon? LOL!!! WOW!!! Oh my God!!!
And you clearly don't understand what "option" means, lol. Let me put this in simpler terms for you. Freddie Solomon was not the #1 Receiving option for most of his career. If a team does not make you the number 1 receiver it's because you're not good enough. It's not by accident.
Oh GOD? Bob Hayes caught the same number of passes. According to you and WatchOS, whose entire argument revolves around stats, he couldn't have been that good.
And you think Dwight Clark was better than Freddie Solomon? LMAO. That alone is a credibility ender. There isn't a 49ers fan alive with an IQ over 60 who was around back then who would agree with that statement.
Again, Solomon played the split end position because he was the only WR on the team with speed (who didn't have brick hands).
Solomon and Clark were arranged the way they were to create an alignment designed to take advantage of each of their strengths as much as possible. Clark didn't have deep speed and would have been completely shut down at split end, which was the position that was much more difficult for a receiver to produce at in the Walsh offense.
Solomon had the speed and explosiveness. Clark had the size to run the possession routes.
"Many, including the 49ers late director of college scouting Tony Razzano, thought Taylor could do everything Jerry Rice could do, if only given the opportunity....With the right side a maze of combination routes designed to bamboozle a defense,
Taylor functioned on the backside of the play, masterfully beating the cornerback to get open. The split end in that old Walshian scheme worked alone."
This was about John Taylor, but it applies to Solomon as well (both played SE in this system).
Um, as I stated earlier, I have hundreds of 49ers games on DVD from that era.
And how do you know I'm alone in that opinion? Have you asked everyone for their opinion?
I could just as easily say that you and AllPro777 are the only two people on the entire planet who think this. But that gets us nowhere...they're sweeping statements that can never be substantiated.
Calling Art Monk overrated but praising Freddie Solomon is laugable, LOL. You've gotta be kidding.
Monk played in a run balanced offense, but retired as the NFL's all time leading receiver! What would he have done in a pass-balanced offense? LOL. The numbers would've been unreachable!
Numbers aren't everything, but that's a simple example of where numbers indicate what a player was able to do on the field.
Lynn Swann wasn't a great route runner, and he was a low producer. Overrated.
I never called Art Monk overrated. I said numbers-wise, he's overrated.
He had only 5 1,000 yard seasons in his career. He never topped 8 TDs in a season in his career. He only placed in the top 10 in the NFL in receiving yards 3 times in his entire career. Touchdowns only ONCE.
Monk's only way up there on the leader boards because he played so long.
See what we can do with the hallowed "stats?"
And LOL at "Swann wasn't a great route runner." You never saw him play. Cut the bull.
THe Redkins and doug william put over 300 yards of offense and 5 tds in just ONE QUARTER!!! not only did they set the record for passing yards but they set the record for rushing yards in a superbowl the hogs opened up holes the size of trucks the amazing thing was that it looked like denver was going to win because they had 10-0 lead but then once williams returned and Joe Gibbs realized denver's offense was totaly one demensional. THe NFC was more bigger and more powerful they all had roids.
Montana had a Dominant Defense probably the Greatest Secondary of all time Montana had great teams before Rice they had so much depth so many veterans and the greatest coach ever beleive montana wasnt the smart one because he wasnt the one calling the plays it was bill walsh the genius who invented the west coast offense. But there Talent was overwelhming. Elway's teams on the other hand sucked. The NFC was the dominant confrence since they were just simply bettter more powerful and bigger
Montana had a far better supporting than Elway anybody with a brain stem can see that Elway is far more talented than Montana but since Montana played with the greatest team in the history of the NFL. I am sure the super bowl was much easier than practice was not because it was Montana was clutch but because his own defense was much better. Terry Bradshaw won 4 super bowls does that mean he is the greatest ever? NO
Sure Montana threw 5 touchdowns that game but he played against Denver's defense and all of the sudden he was the greatest ever Doug Williams played better against them than Montana did and Phil simms was 22/25.
Montana was a below average quarterback in terms of his physical talent (but not a below average Qb he had good intangibles but they werent better than Elways were he did however had this certain kind of intangible and that intangible was called Jerry Rice and he's the best ever).
I remember watching this game. I drank a beer every time the Niners scored. I had trouble keeping up, and I was pretty drunk by the time the game ended!
You also missed the point I made about having talent around you. The fact of the matter is elway did not have talent around him in the 80's and still went to three super Bowls. And Yes talent around you is important. If it wasn't tell me exactly what Montana did in KC? Ya Exactly my point Nothing! NO Rice No Taylor in KC, no great O-line either, NO Ronnie Lott No D-line, No Super Bowl Rings in KC for JOE. I certainly you hope your cerebral Mind can comprehend the facts!
thats your response, see I knew you would come at me personally cause you have no fuckin logic or facts to back anything up, why don't you just quit talkin seriously.
You can question whatever you want, it still won't make your opinion true, nor will it change the facts that you refuse to accept.
I'll just leave it here because you've made no solid arguments to defeat my facts:
Go consult any source on who the most cerebral QB's of all time were, and I guarantee you that John Elway's name will NEVER come up. You'll hear Montana, Unitas, Manning, even Steve Young, but you will nto hear Elway. He was never considered such by anyone. You're delusional.
Dude wake up Dude seriously, You guys had a great D in 1981 and almost went perfect in 1984, so don't sit here and try to bull shit on how those teams were no good, 15-1 in 1984 is not that good? Wake up man, you make yourself sound like a fucking shmuck when you talk like that. Eric Wright and Ronnie achored a great Secondary in the early 80's not to mention you had Jesse Solomon a probowl TE in Dwight Clark and great O-line anchored by Randy Cross! Name me one Great O-lineman in Denver in 80s?
Are you even reading the responses? You sound like a fucking fool every time you post. READ!
Dude, I never said ANYTHING about defense. We're talking OFFENSIVE weapons. PAY ATTENTION. Those teams prior to Rice were nothing special offensively.
Yeah, they went 15-1 in 84. But ask yourself why no one ever talks about that team? It was a collection of hasbeen offensive players and a Roger Craig who was still developing.
Clark was overrated. He was a serviceable player, that's all.
What are you a hermit and those are the facts your are the only discrediting the15-1 84 team FAG. They had Jesse Solomon oh and a guy named Roger Craig, Clark overrated lol he was Probowler idiot go look up the facts. Now tell me one Probowler Elway had on offense from 1986-1989 which by the way is the time frame he took an average Denver teams to 3 SB's name one? You don't know shit and you have no clue who was on those either team dumb fuck, so save your propaganda dude.
You're nothing but an unintelligent fanboy asshole, and I'm won't waste anymore time beyond this post. I didn't discredit a fucking thing you illiterate fucktard. I stated a fact you fucking dumbass. Clark was NOT a great player, period. Jesse Solomon, NOT a great player, period. Neither have ever gotten CLOSE to the HOF and they never will so don't give me that bullshit you fucking moron.
Elway was a great QB, he was not better than Montana. Piss your pants forever about it, it won't change.
Elway was a better overall in every way physically statistically, and he went to more Super Bowls, bottom line is you can't comprehend facts so you try to get personal, you're just a feeble minded little guy. Clark was known for the catch, and don't sit here and BS me about you not being a fan, Face the facts I know them you don't. So just the fuck up and go on about your day cause I don't understand the game, if you did you wouldn't say shit that doesn't back up anything with the facts! Elway >
Dude, again, shut the fuck up. I'm pretty certain I'm at least 15-20 years older than you, so I doubt you've seen anything older than 1987 live and even then you were probably too young to recount anything.
I have no reasons to lie to you. Who the fuck are you?
And by the way, there was indeed a Jesse Solomon (which I'm sure you didn't know), he never played for the 49ers but I never even said Jesse Solomon DID play for the 9ers. You obviously can't read very well.
Sure you have reasons: It's obviously important to you that you look good to people on the internet...on Youtube of all places.
"Clark was NOT a great player, period. Jesse Solomon, NOT a great player, period. Neither have ever gotten CLOSE to the HOF and they never will so don't give me that bullshit you fucking moron."
From your original comment, it's pretty clear that you didn't know whom he was even trying to refer to and only "played along" so as not to look ignorant. Ironic.
Sorry, but I'm not the one who looks ridiculous. There was absolutely nothing in what you wrote to indicate that you knew the player being referred to was actually Freddie Solomon, and your insistence that he wasn't great player (he WAS a great player...not good, GREAT...you've obviously never seen him play) further establishes your lack of credibility.
The fact that you consider Freddie Solomon a "great" player proves that you are very young and have zero understanding of what greatness is, and you're just another ESPN kid with no sense of history.
NO ONE thinks Freddie Solomon was a great player. He's never received ONE HOF vote, no one has fought for it either, not even one player from his own team.
You need to stop telling me who I haven't seen play, you sound like a dumbass. I was a 49er fan longer than you've probably been alive.
Let me sit you down like the young kid you are and give you some reading resources for you to study, so someday you may be able to talk football with the grown men:
Go to profootballreference, search Freddie Solomon, and read up on his statistics. That's your first assignment, and if you understand the stats you'll learn not to call him a "great" player again, lol.
The next thing you should do is go grab the 80' 49ers history from NFL Films ($39). Watch it 10 times. Then come back to talk.
This is one of the most laughable things I've ever witnessed, and that's saying quite a bit.
You're telling the young kid who has actually seen him play to "go read his stats"...as if that's the advantage you have in being "old."
Now let me educate you (pretty hopeless because it's obvious you're a hopeless imbecile) on something:
The split end position in the 49er offense was not conducive to big numbers. That's why the 49ers have only had two 1,000-yard receivers 3 times in their history.
Additionally you poor, pathetic, ignorant moron, perhaps it would be worthwhile to educate you on exactly what kind of player Solomon was.
He was an option quarterback in college...the only player ever drafted out of the tiny University of Tampa. He was taken in the 2nd round. That's how amazing an athlete he was.
He successfully transitioned to receiver. He was timed at 4.29 in the 40. He had moves upon moves. Despite having been a QB, he had incredible hands...tbc
It was an incredible rarity to see him ever drop a pass. He was a precise route runner. He could burn you deep, he was excellent on intermediate patterns, and he could catch the short pass and absolutely kill you after the catch.
There were no flaws in his game. He was a player who was ahead of his time. Had it not been for Dwight Clark's size being desirable for the flanker role as Walsh had envisioned it, Solomon would've been a Hall of Fame player.
When has BSPN EVER talked about Freddie Solomon? They think Joe Montana, Jerry Rice, Steve Young, and Ronnie Lott are the only 49ers players who exist. They're more up your alley.
All that said, I wouldn't want John Elway on the 49ers because he wouldn't fit the personnel. Our guys would have dropped his laser passes anyway.
But Vance Johnson, Mark Jackson, and Orson Mobley were an absolute joke compared to what Montana had to work with at ANY point on the 49ers. Not to mention the SCHEME...
Also, who said Montana didn't have a some good players on the o-line? Name me one QB who has ever won a Super Bowl with a weak o-line? Give up? Good, because there isn't one.
In KC he went to the playoffs both years. The playoffs of '94 he had two comeback wins against Pittsburgh and Houston. In the '95 regular season, don't forget about the last second comeback victory over Denver. To say Montana did nothing in KC is just stupid, just as stupid as it is to think the broncos could ever win 6 super bowls.
WoW are you serious? And how many Rings did KC get with Montana?
You also forgot to mention Elway's last minute comeback in 93' when Denver won 27-21 against Joe, and My name says 6 Super Bowls and that is possible for Denver to reach, but the fact is even though we have only won 2 we have still been to more Super Bowls than your franchise, when was the last time you guys won a playoff game?
Ummmm, Montana only played KC for two seasons. In those two seasons, they made the playoffs twice and went to an AFC Championship game. And the WR's in KC were awful.
Lastly, I'm not a 49er fan, so that doesn't bother that they're no good. But I am a fan of Joe Montana.
All you have to do it switch out the QB's. Put Montana in Elways spot and vice versa. Would Montana lead the Broncos to victory? Hell no. Would Elway easily win with a rec like Rice? Of course.
I'm not a Broncos fan, but they never stood a chance against the power house NFC teams. And getting there is alot different then winning it, see 85' Patriots.
And for as great as Elway was, he NEVER had the Football IQ Joe Montana had.
Elway routinely made bad decisions in Super Bowls. All Montana did was make the right ones, and he did that before Rice since he won 2 Super Bowls before Rice was ever drafted, and his offensive talent prior to that was nothing special.
Elway was very bright and obviously a bright business man as well, so you won't shit on IQ, Elway just never had the talent Joe did until late in his career, I gurantee the 98 Broncos would have fucked up any 49er team includin the 89 team. Elway went to more SB's than any other QB in NFL history just imagine how many he would have went if he would have talent his whole career. Elway was the best By far BARE NONE
I SAID FOOTBALL IQ, not overall general intelligence, lol. WTF?
You have no debate here. Montana's numbers and overall play factually show that he was the ultimate cerebral QB. It's not even close. The man almost never made a mistake in the clutch.
If you think just having some talent around you means you'll be successful then you just don't get it. And like I said, Montana's first two SB teams were nothing special offensively at all. Check the rosters. Not much better than what Elway had.
55-10 The Niners played the most near perfect SB game ever,- destroying Elway n crew. Was actually 55-3.........until Elway's shitty short scramble after a pointless face guarding call. What hurts Elways career more is that he not only lost multiple SB's, he got Owned in them.
Also that's a bad example, because anyone knows those qb's don't hold a candle to Marino. You're comparing a hall of famer to qb's that fall under the "game manager" category, average players surrounded with loads of talent.
Teams win Super Bowls, not just a great QB, not only do you struggle to comprehend facts that I have re-hashed with you several times you also contradict your argument by telling me to look at the video above yet claim that the Marino argument is not relevant, go study the game more than just your montana who always had a team in SF and never did Shit in KC without a team.
Evidently you forgot that Terrell Davis only played the first half of that football game vs SF in 97' do you remember the half time score 17-14 not that it mattered cause if SF was so good that year they wouldn't have gotten Crushed by GB on SF's own home turf 23-3 in championship game, GB the team Denver beat in the Super Bowl that year.
Ok so the 49ers didn't win by a landslide in '81 but the point is they won. Also to call the '81 49ers defense great, is a bit of a stretch. They were solid yes, but not great. Elway took his "less talented" teams of the 80's to Super Bowls, so what? What did he do in those games? If he was as great as you claim he is, they would've won those games or at the very le
broncos sure looked like bumbling, stumbling idiots in this game, knida like last week against new england.
Sherpaful 6 days ago
Gscareface13 is an undercover fan!! Came to see the greatest football franchise ever.
GOLDNS8 2 weeks ago
@Gfscarface13 from what I hear its not the miners that suck its ur mom its niners do or die
young8ballerraps 2 months ago
Lol, gfscarface is just a troll everyone, hes a cowboys fan if that helps you know why...lol, he has been doing nothing but surfing football videos, ESPECIALLY Brett Favre videos, and trolling them for about 2 years now, he is honestly the sadest excuse of a human being ever....just dont feed him guys, he goes away
Krazykid163 8 months ago
Hey gfscarface: if what you saw in super bowl 24 tells you that the 49er's suck, then you are telling the world just how stupid and blind you are. Old proverb: It is better for the fool to remain silent then to open his/her mouth and revel the secret to the whole world. Learn from this. FOOL!
klaatoons 8 months ago
Romanowski's pick was totally legit. 55-3
2SANFRANCISCO 8 months ago
They were so dominate in all phases and Joe made it look so easy yes the greatest team ever and Joe broke many records that year and in this SB too !!! ;-) great memories my dad was a ram fan and I a 49ers fan !!!
Dannycoolbreeze 9 months ago
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Forty WHiners SUCK!!!
gfscarface13 9 months ago
Comment removed
masinquieto 4 months ago
@gfscarface13 Wait Do I RECALL GIVING YOU A SCARE BY MY 49ER POLE I THINK SO.....
Jakester409 4 months ago
Forty WHiners SUCK!!!
gfscarface13 3 months ago
1:54 Kevin Bacon
MichRockHop81108 10 months ago
Funny thing is The Broncos were not that bad a team
impassable 11 months ago
@mandm916 - I was in 8th grade the year of that super bowl and a big 49ers fan, and I knew before the game started that denver had no shot of ever winning that game! It was the best day of my sports fan life.
b017ni3 11 months ago
man when you put it to history montana has to be the greatest qb of all time because he beat elway and marino in the superbowls and is 4-0 in them
MrJonesywales 11 months ago
I was in 8th grade the year of that super bowl and a big broncos fan, but I knew before the game started that denver had no shot of ever wining that game! It was the worst day of my sports fan life.
mandm916 11 months ago
I love when Brent Jones comes to the sideline and says "Man are these guys SLOW" to joe.
bnegs521 11 months ago
Forty Whiners SUCK!!!
gfscarface13 11 months ago
was this a super bowl or a practice session for san fran?
FromSouthforkTexas 1 year ago
If that stupid Leon Lett wouldn't have dropped that sure touchdown for the Cowboys in SB XXVII, then THAT would've been the most lopsided Super Bowl, and my Broncos would be off the hook.
This is really painful to watch!
slaterms11 1 year ago
A dramatic asswhooping
pimpino 1 year ago
@vivalafiends fuck you mother fucker the cowboys suck balls
atowmom 1 year ago
@gfscarface13 GET A LIFE MAN
atowmom 1 year ago
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Forty WHiners SUCK!!!
gfscarface13 1 year ago
@gfscarface13 Your a funny guy...Niners are drinking the wine celebrating 5 superbowls.
jacobvash 1 year ago
Montana for Pope!...love that sign
NevadaWrangler 1 year ago
PUT BILL WALSH 49ERS IN THE 80'S AGAINST JIMMY JOHNSON COWBOYS IN THE 90'S AND WE WOULD BEAT THE FUCK OUT OF THE 49ERS. JOE MONTANA WOULD BE THRASHED BY THE DOOMS DAY DEFENSE!!
vivalafiends 1 year ago
@vivalafiends Didn't Wayne Fontes' Lions beat Johnson's Cowboys 38-6?
AvengingDudikoff 10 months ago
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FUCK THE 49ERS!!! GO COWBOYS!! HAHA WE OWNED YOU LOSERS IN THE 90'S POOR STEVE YOUNG COULDNT BEAT THE BOYS IN THE CHAMPIONSHIP GAME. HAHAHAHAHAHA
vivalafiends 1 year ago
@vivalafiends You like putting your 3 inch dick in your father's asshole, eh? Well, whatever...
bekki650 1 year ago
@bekki650 idiot
parkt6792 1 year ago
Hey, give Elway and the Broncos SOME credit. After all, the 89 49ers were one for the ages.. too much for ANY other team to handle. If you will remember correctly, the 49ers eliminated their play-off rivals with similar dispatch -- making mincemeat out of the Rams and Vikings.
slaterms11 1 year ago
Dramatic? Really?? It was a 55-10 blowout!
sdcazares1980 1 year ago
dang i remember this one we got our ass literally handed to..the game ended as soon as kickoff started. brings back the worst memory in broncos SB history.
beebyH 1 year ago
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Screw Joe Montana. Dan Marino was better any Sunday of the year.
serge014 1 year ago
@serge014 Marino may have had a better arm than Montana, but NOBODY could perform in big games like Joe. ...if i had one big game to win, i would choose Montana over Marino anytime.
vcrm1 1 year ago
@vcrm1 You are totally correct and it is the consensus. Winning the games is what proves all around status. Montana had stats and wins and batted 1000 in super bowls 4 w -0 loss
r1undertaker 1 year ago
@vcrm1 Nope I would choose Steelers defense. Defense wins superbowls
PhillipS5428 1 year ago
biggest kill in superbowl history
CLOC602PHX 1 year ago
The 49ers were SO GOOD in those years.
The only team to really compete with them was the Giants.
They had some great games against each other.
Joe Montana, Phil Simms, Craig, Bavaro, Taylor, Rice and on and on.
Kind of like the Celtics/Lakers.
George Vreeland Hill
GeorgeVreelandHill 1 year ago 3
I am not a 49er fan but this was the greatest dynasty in history. No one can argue with that.
KingPhilip103085 1 year ago
@KingPhilip103085 I agree, I'm a Jaguars fan, but the 1980's 49ers are the best team ever, 4 super bowls in 10 years is very difficult to do, only the Steelers in the 70's were able to pull that off too, Joe Montana is my #1 favorite quarterback of all time, I like Steve Young, but Montana beat him when he was with the Chiefs, so Joe is the better quarterback, Montana all the way!!!
JM1980s 1 year ago
The most one-sided Super Bowl ever.
NYerintransit 1 year ago
49ers cruised 2 a 55-10 win
Foxnaruto30 1 year ago
49ER TOUCHDOWN
RandomBlake2564 1 year ago 3
Dramatic???
The game was over at halftime...ha ha.
michaeld5 1 year ago
Face guarding my ass......hell of a play by Romanowski. Should have been 55-3.
2SANFRANCISCO 1 year ago 2
im guessing the broncos did not deserved to be in the sb
primusofone 1 year ago
I went to that Superbowl...It was so boring that by mid third quarter I left the game and gave my ticket to a little black kid that was standing outside the stadium. He was in shock but I told him that it may not be worth going in to the game as the Bronco's were "stinking up the field" At least I made his day. Broncos never recovered and Montana and Rice went on to make history. 41-10..boring ass game but I could not stand that pigeon toed big chicklet toothed Elway..LOSER!!!
ttiger5050 1 year ago
55-10 but either way a blowout
Joobs0917 1 year ago
Ha ha, yeah it was a yawner.
Still I was a Niner fan, so it was nice two years in a row.
michaeld5 1 year ago
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so your saying that joe had nothing to do with those SB wins ? let me remind you that he won 2 without jerry. so he did what Elway couldnt do and thats carry his team to SB wins. i see that your one of those could of should of guys. no matter what you say the numbers dont lie. Joe has 4 john has 2 , LET IT GO.
prowlifik 2 years ago
Comment removed
prowlifik 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Swith the QB's on this SuperBowl, do you still think Joe Montana and Broncos would win?
I dont think so.
Do your reasearch before you look Stupid.
WHO LOOKS LIKE THE DUMB ASS NOW ? I BELIVE THE WORD IS SWITCH NOT SWITH AND BESIDES JOE HAS 4 AND JOHN HAS 2. THE NUMBERS DONT LIE, ASSHOLE
prowlifik 2 years ago
@ prowlifik
Next time you want to respond to someone, click on Reply. Dont be a Pussy.
Making me come back here to see if you said something behind my back & I see in your profile that you're 29 years old. Did you barely watch the NFL. And you know what I was talking about.
Switch the QB's on both teams and John Elway has 4 Rings, Maybe more.
So for you to say that Elway was not in Joe's Class is a Stupid Comment by you. Plus you respond to peoples comments without cliking on Reply.
Pussy
gfscarface13 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
so your crying because i didnt hit reply ? stop being a bitch, and pull your panties up. you cocksucker.
prowlifik 2 years ago
Its common sense prowlifik.
When you respond to someone you click on Reply so the other person has a chance to respond back.
You're a Pussy for that move.
Back to the subject. Joe Montana would have never won a SuperBowl with the Great Cast and Defense.
If Elway was on the Niners he would have won the SuperBowls Montana won.
Same with Marino.
gfscarface13 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
all you do is cry, cry, cry. just face it Elway could not get it done until Davis came along. iam not saying he was a bad QB. he just couldnt get it done. he and Marino and every other qb/ team ran into the team of the 80's and a dynasty in the making. the 49ers. and if you cant see that then your a pussy LOL
prowlifik 2 years ago
Wow you have no Idea how the NFL & QB position works do you?
You just look at the numbers and say "we won 4 superbowls in the 80's so were the best, every other QB is not as good as Montana"
You do realize Elway carried those teams to the SuperBowls. He didnt have a Jerry Rice, he didn't have a Ronnie Lott ect.
You give Elway those 80's Niners Teams and I bet you Elway would have more Rings now.
Your lazy comments tells me your lack of NFL Knowledge.
gfscarface13 2 years ago
Montana did not have Jerry for his first 2 Super Bowls. Montana had poise for all 4 though. They didn't call him the comeback kid for nothing.
Joobs0917 1 year ago
I know, but thanks for dropping by.
gfscarface13 1 year ago
11 TDs, ZERO INTs 125.8 Qb rating, 4-0 in the Sb, 2x MVP 3x SB MVP, 92.3 career Qb rating says best ever.
Montana is the MASTER of being clutch. You dont think Montana carried those teams? Guess what....Joe won a Sb or 2 without J.Rice, R.Lott ect.
Montana laid 55 points on the #1 defense that year. When was the last time somebody laid 55 on a #1 defense?
Its seems that majority of opinions on this subject are mutual. Look at it this way: J.Montana has the best resume for a Qb....
YBRR88 1 year ago 3
I never said Joe had nothing to do with those SB Wins. Read my Comments carefully you Cunt. You have no Idea how the NFL & QB position works. You have been EXPOSED! prowlifik
You said in the beginning that Elway was not in Joe's league cause of this beating and I said if you switch the QB's on the team Elway would win the superbowls. Catching Up prow?
Joe was Great, the Best Ever? Thats to peoples opionion these days, there is no Cut clear Best Ever. You have to look at the whole piture.
gfscarface13 2 years ago
Comment removed
prowlifik 2 years ago
I heard a story that Denver players refused to talk to the 49ers out in town before the game. Probably gave them extra incentive to kick the Bronco's ass!!
Navdan87 2 years ago
this is proof that Elway wasnt in Montanas leauge
prowlifik 2 years ago
@ prowlifik
You are so Fucking Stupid to say that statement. You are so Stupid, you cant even spell a simple word right.
Its spelled league not "leauge" You dumb Fuck
You realized Joe Montana had one of the Greatest Supporting cast Ever. Joe Montana was part of a System.
If John Elway had his cast he would have won the SuperBowl instead.
Swith the QB's on this SuperBowl, do you still think Joe Montana and Broncos would win?
I dont think so.
Do your reasearch before you look Stupid.
gfscarface13 2 years ago
49er beat down! ole horsehead elway must cringe when he thinks about this game!
Goodoledog 2 years ago
man i remember having the golden 49ers jacket as a kid , good memories =)
reedeema 2 years ago 15
@reedeema lol I know I LOVED my gold niner jacket ...wore it everyday!
SonnyNBrenda4ever 7 months ago
49ers for life
mangos4ever 2 years ago 25
@mangos4ever Yup, Bay Area for life=Giants, 49ers and Sharks for life!
bekki650 1 year ago
But I'm done with this, it's my last post. I have way more important things to do than argue with people who exalt role-players to greatness status (LOL), and have to hurl insults because they don't have valid arguments.
YouTube just seems to attract the dumbest, most misinformed people on the planet for some reason and sometimes it's funny. This time it's just sad.
TheWatcherOS 2 years ago
I think you've made it clear to all that you're a full-fledged, babbling idiot.
You can go ahead and put your Derrick Masons and Rod Smiths in the Hall of Fame. After all, they were both more "productive" than most receivers in the HOF already.
I'll take my Bob Hayeses and Lynn Swanns and John Taylors and Freddie Solomons, guys who made an enormous impact in nearly every game they played with BIG PLAYS, as opposed to little 11 yard curl routes while their team went nowhere.
EmceeNolan 2 years ago
Oh sorry, I meant Jesse Solomon. My bad.
BrettCagwin49ers 2 years ago
Freddie Solomon was an awesome, great great player. The people who are disagreeing with that notion in these comments are dumb cunts who don't even know what his first name was let alone how good a player he was. Shut the fuck up and fuck off.
BrettCagwin49ers 2 years ago
You're a know-nothing moron just like EmceeNolan.
The man was not a #1 option for most of his fucking career (that alone should tell you dumbasses how stupid you are to call him great, lol). Name ONE fucking great player who wasn't a #1 option on his own team for most of his career?
... Guess what? You can't!!! There is no such thing. You fucking morons.
#2. His production was pathetic.
#3. He won no honors in his ENTIRE career. NONE. No Pro Bowls. No All-Pro's. NOTHING. FACT!!!
AllPro777 2 years ago
EmceeNolan is just a dickhead on top of not really knowing what he's talking about. I'll give him credit for being passionate even if he's passionate about something he has no clue whatsoever about, lol.
Just the fact that he's 24 and you're like 20years older than him, yet he has the nerve to tell you you haven't seen these guys play (LOL) tells you how moronic he is. He's 24 so it's a definite that HE'S never seen these guys play!
There is nothing else to say. Let the clown think he won.
TheWatcherOS 2 years ago
Did you not read the part about him having old games on DVD?
Ironic that your name is "TheWatcher" when you can't even pay attention to the text on the computer screen,
BrettCagwin49ers 2 years ago
He never seen them play LIVE, and that was the argument. Go back and read and try to comprehend.
Obviously, it's YOU can't pay attention to the text on the screen.
TheWatcherOS 2 years ago
What difference does it make whether I saw him LIVE or not? I saw him with emotions detached, making my observations even more reliable.
EmceeNolan 2 years ago
#1 John Taylor
#2 LMAO. He was a 10 TD-a-season type scorer you dumb fuck. He had 7 TDs on the shitty 1979 team (in 12 games started); 8 the next two season's (in 13 and 15 games); and 10 in 1984 in 13 games. He just didn't rack up a lot of yards because he didn't get a lot of catches. We had too many other good players and not enough footballs to go around, and Walsh liked to spread it around. He maintained healthy averages every year of his prime.
BrettCagwin49ers 2 years ago
#2 "He was a 10 TD-a-season type scorer..."
LOL. He scored 10 TD's once in '84. ONCE. Do you understand what ONCE means, dumbass? Guess not. But obviously, doing it ONCE does not make him a "10-TD-a-season type scorer", lol.
What a dumbass you are.
I think that's enough for me here. You guys have no valid arguments, just useless information, incorrect information, and insults.
You guys are weak.
AllPro777 2 years ago
What valid arguments do you guys have?
The only thing you've put forth is "look at his numbers," but by that same token, when you bash Freddie Solomon, you're also bashing Hall of Famers like Lynn Swann and Bob Hayes. That alone reveals the depths of your idiocy.
EmceeNolan 2 years ago
#3 So fucking what? Michael Vick has made 3 Pro-Bowls, as did Shaun Alexander. it's fucking meaningless. There are horrible snubs every year and overrated pieces of shit make it every year. it's irrelevant.
BrettCagwin49ers 2 years ago
All those giuys made Pro Bowls because they produced well enough. Freddie never produced well enough to make a Pro Bowl. That's a fact.
Sure there are snubs, but let's be real... he didn't get snubbed 11 years in a row, lol. He just didn't produce. He wasn't a great player, and he wasn't a #1 option meaning the team he played for did not view him as a great WR. If they did he would've been the #1 WR option.
TheWatcherOS 2 years ago
Well then your "great" receiver Art Monk wasn't "great"...because statistically-speaking, he wasn't the Redskins' go-to receiver.
Oh, and I let another idiotic comment of yours slip earlier--HAD THE REDSKINS HAD A PASS BALANCED OFFENSE? You think the Redskins were usually run heavy? How ignorant can you get?
Joe Gibbs didn't get his reputation as an offensive innovator for pounding the ball.
EmceeNolan 2 years ago
Um...was Art Monk the #1 option on the Redskins?
Gary Clark had the better numbers.
His "production" (term only used by the stat regurgitating internet dweebs who don't understand football) was pathetic, you say?
He was top 10 in the NFL in touchdown receptions three times. That's more than, uh...Art Monk, who only did that once.
Ray Nitschke only made one Pro Bowl in his entire career. The Pro Bowl is a joke. Always has been.
EmceeNolan 2 years ago
I read AllPro's comments and EmceeNolan took that out of context. He never actually said Jesse Solomon played for SF. He just said Jesse Solomon wasn't a great player in response to another dumbass poster, and he was right.
Don't follow EmceeNolan's stupid shit, Brett. Read for yourself, and be your own man.
I mean, how can you follow a guy that says Art Monk was overrated "numbers-wise" (LOL) considering he was the all-time leading receiver when he retired playing on a run-heavy team?
TheWatcherOS 2 years ago
I didn't take it out of context; there was absolutely nothing in his post to indicate he had the faintest idea who the other commenter was referring to. Had he known, he either would've quoted "Jesse" (like this), written it in capital letters "JESSE," or corrected him on the guy's name. He said nothing...it just blended in with the rest of his idiotic post.
And he has absolutely nothing to back his claims. He relies on statistics like the lay football idiot (like you).
EmceeNolan 2 years ago
Way to go Elway!!!! LOL
dolfangirl1 2 years ago
EmceeNolan,
You are a FUCKING joke. All that bullshit you just said meant absolutely nothing. All you're doing now is spewing up useless information because you know you're wrong on the subject at hand.
"Oh Freddie could've been a HOF player, he REALLY REALLY COULDA!!!" LOL.
Guess what dickhead? HE WASN'T!!! End of FUCKING story. And you're the ONLY dumbass on planet earth talking about him as a great player, LOL.
Stop bullshitting. You lost. Act like a grown up and just accept it.
AllPro777 2 years ago
Oh gee, with great arguments like that, how can I possibly win?
You never saw him play and revealed the depths of your ignorance. I don't even have to do anything--you lose by default as soon as you resort to "go look up his numberz" in an argument where having seen someone play is the critical element.
Next you'll tell me to look up the numbers of Bo Jackson and Gale Sayers. I guess they weren't great either, yo!!!111
Also, Roger Craig RAVES about him in his book...but what does HE know?
EmceeNolan 2 years ago
Yeah okay kid. You're corny and a phony to boot.
Your whole lame routine consists of telling someone 20 years older than you that he never saw a player play which would be impossible as the 9ers were my favorite team at the time. But because you're a dumbass and can't read, you keep repeating a dumbass statement.
I lose nothing. I saw him play and he was not a great player. No one but you, a kid, considers him great. You have no concept of what greatness is.
Go finish your homework.
AllPro777 2 years ago
I'm a 24-year-old who owns 100's of 49ers games from the era in which he played on DVD.
You're a dipshit who didn't even know what his first name was. Then on top of that, you tried to back your ignorant claim with "go look at his numberz111"
I'm far from the only one who considers him great. Bill Walsh and Roger Craig considered him great...but then, what do THEY know? Surely not as much as YOU; someone who thought his name was JESSE Solomon.
LOLOLOLOLOL.
EmceeNolan 2 years ago
AllPro is right on this one, and it's not really a tough decision. Freddie Solomon was a decent player, but great? No. Far from it. It can be argued that if an overrated guy like Swann can make the hall why not Freddie? Thing is, Swann was actually better than Freddie and therein lies the problem for Freddie.
Rice was great. Monk was great. Solomon was just a role player, not a solid first option, low production, no pro bowls, never an All Pro.
Nolan, you're delusional man. Give it a rest.
TheWatcherOS 2 years ago
And why do you think Swann was overrated?
Herein lies the problem: Like AllPro777, you are a box score stat regurgitation dolt. Football is not a sport where statistics consistently paint an accurate portrayal of what kind of player someone is. A 2 yard pass against a blown coverage that goes for 80 yards counts for more yardage than a 15 yard pass where the WR destroyed a corner one-on-one, and then broke 5 tackles for a 35 yard gain.
BTW, numbers-wise, Monk was overrated...consistency?
EmceeNolan 2 years ago
Dude, stop. No one agrees with you! LOL!
Stats DO matter, dumbass. There is a balance between production and intangibles. Freddie wasn't even the #1 option most of the time. That alone tells us what his own team thought of him, and that's why you have no argument here, LOL. HIs OWN FUCKING TEAM. How retarded are you?
And just stop with the name bullshit. I've already explained that.
For 24 years old you're incredibly immature, even for a 24 year old. You have a lot of growing up to do.
AllPro777 2 years ago
And it's hilarious how you continue to spew out useless information to deflect the main point, of which you're dead wrong on. Who gives a shit what Roger Craig said about Freddie Solomon? What the fuck did you think he was going to say? He sucked?
Hell Emmitt Smith gave props to Alonzo Highsmith, and Alonzo was garbage. Players on your own team are usually going to say something nice if they were friends.
EmceeNolan, all you are is a condescending asshole who thinks he knows everything.
AllPro777 2 years ago
Oh, so now it's "useless information?" You're only calling it "useless information" because it's information that proves you have no idea what you're talking about.
Roger Craig didn't just praise Freddie Solomon, he raved about him. There's a difference.
I may not know everything, but I sure as hell know more than you. But then again, pretty much everyone knows more than an unfathomable idiot such as yourself.
EmceeNolan 2 years ago
Yeah, "mature" people write like you and call things "retarded" and the like. LOL...are you fucking serious, idiot?
Freddie wasn't the "#1 option"--the running game was. In the Bill Walsh offense, the flanker was automatically the "go-to" guy. That's the way it was structured. Solomon was the split end because he had the rare talent required to excel at that position.
EmceeNolan 2 years ago
What football novices such as yourself fail to understand is that stats don't all count the same.
There's 3 catches for 43 yards and then there's THREE CATCHES for FOURTY THREE YARDS. That game could either be miserable or amazing. Or it could be ordinary.
If it's a go-to receiver who had the ball thrown his way 6 other times and he dropped 3 of those 6 passes, he had a poor performance and was basically shut down.
TBC...
EmceeNolan 2 years ago
If the receiver had 4 balls thrown his way and he caught 3 of them, and they were for 16, 15, and 12 yards, and each of those catches came on a scoring drive in a 24-20 victory, and on two of them he broke several tackles to pick up extra yardage on 3rd down, he had a great game.
If Dwight Clark catches 8 balls for 98 yards in a 34-17 loss, and 80 of his yards are in garbage time (in the 4th quarter, down by 20+ points), did he have a better game than Solomon had in the aforementioned example?
EmceeNolan 2 years ago
The lay football fan doesn't understand this concept, and it's quite sad.
Additionally, both of you are obviously completely oblivious to the fact that football was significantly different in the 70's than it was in the 80's, and in the 80's than it was in the 90's, and so on.
Corners used to be able to maul receivers. Teams used to run the ball 60+% of the time. Offensive systems weren't nearly as advanced. Before 1978, teams only played 14 games in the regular season.
Foreign concepts, eh?
EmceeNolan 2 years ago
I don't think anyone is "oblivious" to an elementary fact that football has differences in different era's.
Bottom line is, nothing you posted negates the fact that Freddie Solomon wasn't a great player. It's just your opinion but you're alone in that opinion, and at 24 years old I can't see what your opinion could be based on since Freddie retired sometime around when you were born.
You couldn't have seen him play one live down, and if you did you were only like a few mos to a yr old.
TheWatcherOS 2 years ago
And I don't care what era you play in. If you play 11 years and only produce 371 catches, you weren't that good. That's an average of 34 catches a year, lol. C'mon dude.
Do you realize how many receivers even before Freddie's era that had better numbers?
I love how you insult people because they don't agree with you. Very immature.
TheWatcherOS 2 years ago
Yeah Watcher. You nailed that right on the head. The whole era argument people try to use is valid, but often used in a misguided way.
Don Hutson played in a run-balanced offense in a time when the rules were even more handcuffing of offenses than any era since.
Yet, Don's numbers SMOKE guys like Lynn Swann. Hell, Don's TD record stood for nearly 50 years!!!
Either you're great or you're not, regardless of an era. Freddie Solomon couldn't have even held Don Hutson's jockstrap, lol.
AllPro777 2 years ago
Yeah. Right. Lynn Swann wasn't that good either because he didn't have a lot of "catchezzzz."
371 catches? Guess who else had 371 catches? BOB HAYES
But I know, I know...they need to kick Bob Hayes and Lynn Swann out of the HOF because they didn't have the hollow stats for your shallow, idiotic ass.
Don Hutson only had 488 catches in his career. I guess he wasn't that good either.
Otis Taylor only had 410 catches. I guess he wasn't that good either.
What a joke.
EmceeNolan 2 years ago
Now you're comparing fucking Bullet Bob Hayes, an ALL-AROUND offensive threat to Freddie Solomon? LOL!!! WOW!!! Oh my God!!!
And you clearly don't understand what "option" means, lol. Let me put this in simpler terms for you. Freddie Solomon was not the #1 Receiving option for most of his career. If a team does not make you the number 1 receiver it's because you're not good enough. It's not by accident.
EmceeNolan, dumbass, I'm done with you child.
You don't know shit about Football.
AllPro777 2 years ago
Oh GOD? Bob Hayes caught the same number of passes. According to you and WatchOS, whose entire argument revolves around stats, he couldn't have been that good.
And you think Dwight Clark was better than Freddie Solomon? LMAO. That alone is a credibility ender. There isn't a 49ers fan alive with an IQ over 60 who was around back then who would agree with that statement.
Again, Solomon played the split end position because he was the only WR on the team with speed (who didn't have brick hands).
EmceeNolan 2 years ago
Solomon and Clark were arranged the way they were to create an alignment designed to take advantage of each of their strengths as much as possible. Clark didn't have deep speed and would have been completely shut down at split end, which was the position that was much more difficult for a receiver to produce at in the Walsh offense.
Solomon had the speed and explosiveness. Clark had the size to run the possession routes.
EmceeNolan 2 years ago
"Many, including the 49ers late director of college scouting Tony Razzano, thought Taylor could do everything Jerry Rice could do, if only given the opportunity....With the right side a maze of combination routes designed to bamboozle a defense,
Taylor functioned on the backside of the play, masterfully beating the cornerback to get open. The split end in that old Walshian scheme worked alone."
This was about John Taylor, but it applies to Solomon as well (both played SE in this system).
EmceeNolan 2 years ago
sfgatecom/cgi-bin/blogs/ninerinsider/category?blogid=45&cat=1502
Add the "." before "com,"
EmceeNolan 2 years ago
Um, as I stated earlier, I have hundreds of 49ers games on DVD from that era.
And how do you know I'm alone in that opinion? Have you asked everyone for their opinion?
I could just as easily say that you and AllPro777 are the only two people on the entire planet who think this. But that gets us nowhere...they're sweeping statements that can never be substantiated.
EmceeNolan 2 years ago
Calling Art Monk overrated but praising Freddie Solomon is laugable, LOL. You've gotta be kidding.
Monk played in a run balanced offense, but retired as the NFL's all time leading receiver! What would he have done in a pass-balanced offense? LOL. The numbers would've been unreachable!
Numbers aren't everything, but that's a simple example of where numbers indicate what a player was able to do on the field.
Lynn Swann wasn't a great route runner, and he was a low producer. Overrated.
TheWatcherOS 2 years ago
I never called Art Monk overrated. I said numbers-wise, he's overrated.
He had only 5 1,000 yard seasons in his career. He never topped 8 TDs in a season in his career. He only placed in the top 10 in the NFL in receiving yards 3 times in his entire career. Touchdowns only ONCE.
Monk's only way up there on the leader boards because he played so long.
See what we can do with the hallowed "stats?"
And LOL at "Swann wasn't a great route runner." You never saw him play. Cut the bull.
EmceeNolan 2 years ago
Sorry about the typos Word isnt picking up the mistakes and i am probably the worst typer in the history of the universe
XtremeAthleticism 2 years ago
THe Redkins and doug william put over 300 yards of offense and 5 tds in just ONE QUARTER!!! not only did they set the record for passing yards but they set the record for rushing yards in a superbowl the hogs opened up holes the size of trucks the amazing thing was that it looked like denver was going to win because they had 10-0 lead but then once williams returned and Joe Gibbs realized denver's offense was totaly one demensional. THe NFC was more bigger and more powerful they all had roids.
XtremeAthleticism 2 years ago
Elway's offensive line in the 80's and early 90's was soft and really undersized and the broncos for some reason liked to get undersized players
XtremeAthleticism 2 years ago
The NFC won 12 superbowls in a row from 1984-1996 until Elway with a better team this time beat the packer in superbowl XXXII.
XtremeAthleticism 2 years ago
Montana had a Dominant Defense probably the Greatest Secondary of all time Montana had great teams before Rice they had so much depth so many veterans and the greatest coach ever beleive montana wasnt the smart one because he wasnt the one calling the plays it was bill walsh the genius who invented the west coast offense. But there Talent was overwelhming. Elway's teams on the other hand sucked. The NFC was the dominant confrence since they were just simply bettter more powerful and bigger
XtremeAthleticism 2 years ago
Montana had a far better supporting than Elway anybody with a brain stem can see that Elway is far more talented than Montana but since Montana played with the greatest team in the history of the NFL. I am sure the super bowl was much easier than practice was not because it was Montana was clutch but because his own defense was much better. Terry Bradshaw won 4 super bowls does that mean he is the greatest ever? NO
XtremeAthleticism 2 years ago
Sure Montana threw 5 touchdowns that game but he played against Denver's defense and all of the sudden he was the greatest ever Doug Williams played better against them than Montana did and Phil simms was 22/25.
XtremeAthleticism 2 years ago
Montana was a below average quarterback in terms of his physical talent (but not a below average Qb he had good intangibles but they werent better than Elways were he did however had this certain kind of intangible and that intangible was called Jerry Rice and he's the best ever).
XtremeAthleticism 2 years ago
I remember watching this game. I drank a beer every time the Niners scored. I had trouble keeping up, and I was pretty drunk by the time the game ended!
dawoool 2 years ago
You also missed the point I made about having talent around you. The fact of the matter is elway did not have talent around him in the 80's and still went to three super Bowls. And Yes talent around you is important. If it wasn't tell me exactly what Montana did in KC? Ya Exactly my point Nothing! NO Rice No Taylor in KC, no great O-line either, NO Ronnie Lott No D-line, No Super Bowl Rings in KC for JOE. I certainly you hope your cerebral Mind can comprehend the facts!
Broncos6Superbowls 2 years ago
wow you really are a sore loser.... damn you must have no life.... i got some free time and damn.... you are soooooo fuckin sorry ... puahahahahah!
derricknguyen04 2 years ago
thats your response, see I knew you would come at me personally cause you have no fuckin logic or facts to back anything up, why don't you just quit talkin seriously.
Broncos6Superbowls 2 years ago
You can question whatever you want, it still won't make your opinion true, nor will it change the facts that you refuse to accept.
I'll just leave it here because you've made no solid arguments to defeat my facts:
Go consult any source on who the most cerebral QB's of all time were, and I guarantee you that John Elway's name will NEVER come up. You'll hear Montana, Unitas, Manning, even Steve Young, but you will nto hear Elway. He was never considered such by anyone. You're delusional.
AllPro777 2 years ago
I missed no point. You've made no points to miss, lol.
We all know Elway's teams in the 80's weren't that great. And Elway was a great QB. You're beating a dead horse, and it negates nothing I've stated.
Montana's first two Super Bowl teams were no more talented offensively than what Elway had. Again, check the rosters.
Secondly, Montana did a lot in KC. Were you born then? LOL. He took them to the playoffs both seasons, AND got them to the AFC Championship.
Dude, just give up.
AllPro777 2 years ago
Dude wake up Dude seriously, You guys had a great D in 1981 and almost went perfect in 1984, so don't sit here and try to bull shit on how those teams were no good, 15-1 in 1984 is not that good? Wake up man, you make yourself sound like a fucking shmuck when you talk like that. Eric Wright and Ronnie achored a great Secondary in the early 80's not to mention you had Jesse Solomon a probowl TE in Dwight Clark and great O-line anchored by Randy Cross! Name me one Great O-lineman in Denver in 80s?
Broncos6Superbowls 2 years ago
Are you even reading the responses? You sound like a fucking fool every time you post. READ!
Dude, I never said ANYTHING about defense. We're talking OFFENSIVE weapons. PAY ATTENTION. Those teams prior to Rice were nothing special offensively.
Yeah, they went 15-1 in 84. But ask yourself why no one ever talks about that team? It was a collection of hasbeen offensive players and a Roger Craig who was still developing.
Clark was overrated. He was a serviceable player, that's all.
AllPro777 2 years ago
What are you a hermit and those are the facts your are the only discrediting the15-1 84 team FAG. They had Jesse Solomon oh and a guy named Roger Craig, Clark overrated lol he was Probowler idiot go look up the facts. Now tell me one Probowler Elway had on offense from 1986-1989 which by the way is the time frame he took an average Denver teams to 3 SB's name one? You don't know shit and you have no clue who was on those either team dumb fuck, so save your propaganda dude.
Broncos6Superbowls 2 years ago
You're nothing but an unintelligent fanboy asshole, and I'm won't waste anymore time beyond this post. I didn't discredit a fucking thing you illiterate fucktard. I stated a fact you fucking dumbass. Clark was NOT a great player, period. Jesse Solomon, NOT a great player, period. Neither have ever gotten CLOSE to the HOF and they never will so don't give me that bullshit you fucking moron.
Elway was a great QB, he was not better than Montana. Piss your pants forever about it, it won't change.
AllPro777 2 years ago
Elway was a better overall in every way physically statistically, and he went to more Super Bowls, bottom line is you can't comprehend facts so you try to get personal, you're just a feeble minded little guy. Clark was known for the catch, and don't sit here and BS me about you not being a fan, Face the facts I know them you don't. So just the fuck up and go on about your day cause I don't understand the game, if you did you wouldn't say shit that doesn't back up anything with the facts! Elway >
Broncos6Superbowls 2 years ago
The Different Is That Montana Had A Team With Him Elway Didnt And Thats A Fact
ultimator50 2 years ago
LOL...JESSE SOLOMON?
The 49ers have never had a player named Jesse Solomon. You two are hilarious going at it when you're both full of shit.
EmceeNolan 2 years ago
I know there was no Jesse Solomon. It was Freddie Solomon, I was just humoring the guy.
Shut the fuck up.
AllPro777 2 years ago
Yeah. Sure you did.
Freddie Solomon was an outstanding WR, by the way. Too bad you never saw him play.
EmceeNolan 2 years ago
Yeah. Sure you did.
Freddie Solomon was an outstanding WR, BTW. He could do it all. Too bad neither of you ever saw him play.
EmceeNolan 2 years ago
Dude, again, shut the fuck up. I'm pretty certain I'm at least 15-20 years older than you, so I doubt you've seen anything older than 1987 live and even then you were probably too young to recount anything.
I have no reasons to lie to you. Who the fuck are you?
And by the way, there was indeed a Jesse Solomon (which I'm sure you didn't know), he never played for the 49ers but I never even said Jesse Solomon DID play for the 9ers. You obviously can't read very well.
AllPro777 2 years ago
Sure you have reasons: It's obviously important to you that you look good to people on the internet...on Youtube of all places.
"Clark was NOT a great player, period. Jesse Solomon, NOT a great player, period. Neither have ever gotten CLOSE to the HOF and they never will so don't give me that bullshit you fucking moron."
From your original comment, it's pretty clear that you didn't know whom he was even trying to refer to and only "played along" so as not to look ignorant. Ironic.
EmceeNolan 2 years ago
You have a serious stick up your ass with this.
Your statement and attempt to use my quote is a massive fail. It negates nothing I said. Give it a rest, you look ridiculous.
Jesse Solomon wasn't a great player, that's a fact. Neither was Freddie. Fact. Just leave it at that and believe whatever you want.
AllPro777 2 years ago
Oh, a MASSIVE FAIL? Oh noez.
Sorry, but I'm not the one who looks ridiculous. There was absolutely nothing in what you wrote to indicate that you knew the player being referred to was actually Freddie Solomon, and your insistence that he wasn't great player (he WAS a great player...not good, GREAT...you've obviously never seen him play) further establishes your lack of credibility.
EmceeNolan 2 years ago
The fact that you consider Freddie Solomon a "great" player proves that you are very young and have zero understanding of what greatness is, and you're just another ESPN kid with no sense of history.
NO ONE thinks Freddie Solomon was a great player. He's never received ONE HOF vote, no one has fought for it either, not even one player from his own team.
You need to stop telling me who I haven't seen play, you sound like a dumbass. I was a 49er fan longer than you've probably been alive.
AllPro777 2 years ago
Let me sit you down like the young kid you are and give you some reading resources for you to study, so someday you may be able to talk football with the grown men:
Go to profootballreference, search Freddie Solomon, and read up on his statistics. That's your first assignment, and if you understand the stats you'll learn not to call him a "great" player again, lol.
The next thing you should do is go grab the 80' 49ers history from NFL Films ($39). Watch it 10 times. Then come back to talk.
AllPro777 2 years ago
This is one of the most laughable things I've ever witnessed, and that's saying quite a bit.
You're telling the young kid who has actually seen him play to "go read his stats"...as if that's the advantage you have in being "old."
Now let me educate you (pretty hopeless because it's obvious you're a hopeless imbecile) on something:
The split end position in the 49er offense was not conducive to big numbers. That's why the 49ers have only had two 1,000-yard receivers 3 times in their history.
EmceeNolan 2 years ago
Additionally you poor, pathetic, ignorant moron, perhaps it would be worthwhile to educate you on exactly what kind of player Solomon was.
He was an option quarterback in college...the only player ever drafted out of the tiny University of Tampa. He was taken in the 2nd round. That's how amazing an athlete he was.
He successfully transitioned to receiver. He was timed at 4.29 in the 40. He had moves upon moves. Despite having been a QB, he had incredible hands...tbc
EmceeNolan 2 years ago
It was an incredible rarity to see him ever drop a pass. He was a precise route runner. He could burn you deep, he was excellent on intermediate patterns, and he could catch the short pass and absolutely kill you after the catch.
There were no flaws in his game. He was a player who was ahead of his time. Had it not been for Dwight Clark's size being desirable for the flanker role as Walsh had envisioned it, Solomon would've been a Hall of Fame player.
And you said _I'm_ the BSPN regurgitator?
EmceeNolan 2 years ago
When has BSPN EVER talked about Freddie Solomon? They think Joe Montana, Jerry Rice, Steve Young, and Ronnie Lott are the only 49ers players who exist. They're more up your alley.
All that said, I wouldn't want John Elway on the 49ers because he wouldn't fit the personnel. Our guys would have dropped his laser passes anyway.
But Vance Johnson, Mark Jackson, and Orson Mobley were an absolute joke compared to what Montana had to work with at ANY point on the 49ers. Not to mention the SCHEME...
EmceeNolan 2 years ago
And if you'd seen him play, you'd know what his real first name is.
EmceeNolan 2 years ago
Oh they wish they were "Jesse's girl"
beaupeep1 2 years ago
Gay.
AllPro777 2 years ago
Also, who said Montana didn't have a some good players on the o-line? Name me one QB who has ever won a Super Bowl with a weak o-line? Give up? Good, because there isn't one.
AllPro777 2 years ago
elway lost get over it joe cool is better
lafjak123 2 years ago 3
In KC he went to the playoffs both years. The playoffs of '94 he had two comeback wins against Pittsburgh and Houston. In the '95 regular season, don't forget about the last second comeback victory over Denver. To say Montana did nothing in KC is just stupid, just as stupid as it is to think the broncos could ever win 6 super bowls.
5-0 BAYBEE!!!
blackmetalqueer 2 years ago
WoW are you serious? And how many Rings did KC get with Montana?
You also forgot to mention Elway's last minute comeback in 93' when Denver won 27-21 against Joe, and My name says 6 Super Bowls and that is possible for Denver to reach, but the fact is even though we have only won 2 we have still been to more Super Bowls than your franchise, when was the last time you guys won a playoff game?
Broncos6Superbowls 2 years ago
Your just a whiny little bitch, here's a few numbers for you
55-10 55-10 55-10 55-10 55-10 55-10 55-10 55-10 55-10 55-10 55-10 55-10 55-10 55-10 55-10 55-10 55-10 55-10 55-10 55-10 55-10 55-10 55-10 55-10 55-10 55-10 55-10 55-10 55-10 55-10 55-10 55-10 55-10 55-10 55-10 55-10 55-10 55-10 55-10 55-10 55-10 55-10
blackmetalqueer 2 years ago
Ummmm, Montana only played KC for two seasons. In those two seasons, they made the playoffs twice and went to an AFC Championship game. And the WR's in KC were awful.
Lastly, I'm not a 49er fan, so that doesn't bother that they're no good. But I am a fan of Joe Montana.
I wish you were a fan of facts, lol.
AllPro777 2 years ago
All you have to do it switch out the QB's. Put Montana in Elways spot and vice versa. Would Montana lead the Broncos to victory? Hell no. Would Elway easily win with a rec like Rice? Of course.
I'm not a Broncos fan, but they never stood a chance against the power house NFC teams. And getting there is alot different then winning it, see 85' Patriots.
Jikk 2 years ago
It's not that simple.
And for as great as Elway was, he NEVER had the Football IQ Joe Montana had.
Elway routinely made bad decisions in Super Bowls. All Montana did was make the right ones, and he did that before Rice since he won 2 Super Bowls before Rice was ever drafted, and his offensive talent prior to that was nothing special.
AllPro777 2 years ago 2
Elway was very bright and obviously a bright business man as well, so you won't shit on IQ, Elway just never had the talent Joe did until late in his career, I gurantee the 98 Broncos would have fucked up any 49er team includin the 89 team. Elway went to more SB's than any other QB in NFL history just imagine how many he would have went if he would have talent his whole career. Elway was the best By far BARE NONE
Broncos6Superbowls 2 years ago
I SAID FOOTBALL IQ, not overall general intelligence, lol. WTF?
You have no debate here. Montana's numbers and overall play factually show that he was the ultimate cerebral QB. It's not even close. The man almost never made a mistake in the clutch.
If you think just having some talent around you means you'll be successful then you just don't get it. And like I said, Montana's first two SB teams were nothing special offensively at all. Check the rosters. Not much better than what Elway had.
AllPro777 2 years ago
Comment removed
Broncos6Superbowls 2 years ago
Joe Montana was the best evr. Period. He got it done in SF, and he got it done in KC with absolute GARBAGE receivers.
AllPro777 2 years ago 3
55-10 The Niners played the most near perfect SB game ever,- destroying Elway n crew. Was actually 55-3.........until Elway's shitty short scramble after a pointless face guarding call. What hurts Elways career more is that he not only lost multiple SB's, he got Owned in them.
2SANFRANCISCO 2 years ago 4
Hey everybody let's argue on the internet!
Speegs23 2 years ago
Also that's a bad example, because anyone knows those qb's don't hold a candle to Marino. You're comparing a hall of famer to qb's that fall under the "game manager" category, average players surrounded with loads of talent.
JMullown 2 years ago
Teams win Super Bowls, not just a great QB, not only do you struggle to comprehend facts that I have re-hashed with you several times you also contradict your argument by telling me to look at the video above yet claim that the Marino argument is not relevant, go study the game more than just your montana who always had a team in SF and never did Shit in KC without a team.
Broncos6Superbowls 2 years ago
Elway won back to back super bowls near the age of 40, what did Joe near the age of 40? Exactly.
Broncos6Superbowls 2 years ago
Evidently you forgot that Terrell Davis only played the first half of that football game vs SF in 97' do you remember the half time score 17-14 not that it mattered cause if SF was so good that year they wouldn't have gotten Crushed by GB on SF's own home turf 23-3 in championship game, GB the team Denver beat in the Super Bowl that year.
Broncos6Superbowls 2 years ago
Ok so the 49ers didn't win by a landslide in '81 but the point is they won. Also to call the '81 49ers defense great, is a bit of a stretch. They were solid yes, but not great. Elway took his "less talented" teams of the 80's to Super Bowls, so what? What did he do in those games? If he was as great as you claim he is, they would've won those games or at the very le