i dont understand why slow rolling is considered wrong. It's a game thats as much about psychology as maths and so not slow rolling to psyche out others at the table seems stupid.
Just watched a re-run of the 2011 $50k Poker Player’s C'ship, where the poker twat came second to Brian Rast. Hellmutt chased the flush draw 3 times in a row and threw away a 5:1 chip lead. Instead of congratulating Rast for winning, poker twat told Rast he should tip the dealer a $1m.
Imagine if Rast had gone all-in on a flush draw against a Hellmutt straight, hit it, and won! Imagine the shit he would have come out with!!
A masterclass on how not to behave at the table from the poker twat.
Hellmuth has to show first that the proper etiquit actually is once your called to show your hand. Hellmuth didn't want to show his hand. he just wanted to see johns hand and nobody sees his. John can throw his hand away as soon as hellmuth mucks his hand. Once john shows hellmuth can still muck and not show. Hellmuth just wanted to see and not show his hand he was actually in the wrong. He was mad he got caught bluffing and wanted to tilt john.
Almost. It would be insane for John to "throw his hand away" after Hellmuth mucked his own hand. If Hellmuth mucks his hand first, then John merely has to turn over his own 'nothing cards' and wins the pot. There's a video here on youtube where some chick rivers a straight against Tony G. She had the hand won until she mucked her cards, not realizing that she hit the straight (thinking that Tony had her beat). Tony automatically won with trips even though her straight was good.
No, you completely misunderstood my point. I support Phil's stance on etiquette here. I was just pointing out to cardshark598 that John would've NEVER thrown his hand away if Hellmuth mucked his cards 1st. The point I was making to him was that if you muck the winning hand, you automatically LOOSE when your opponent (e.g., Bellande) turns over his cards. It has happened before (e.g., Tony G). And, sometimes, opponents will trick you into mucking your winning hands (angle-shooting).
The genius in this was that Hellmuth was witty enough to put the heat on Bellande by making it look like Bellande was trying to trick him into mucking his cards. Normally, Hellmuth (or any other player in this position) just would've turned over their cards & won the pot. Hellmuth was trying to show that Bellande could've gotten away with a dirty move had Hellmuth mucked his cards. It was a great poker lesson & worth the slowroll. But, again, winning hands are mucked on occasion.
Spark notes: I never said Bellande shouldn't have exposed his hole cards. My original post wasn't about rules or etiquette, nor was it about whether or not Hellmuth should've showed his hand. It was about whether or not Hellmuth (or anyone in that same position) should've mucked his cards. It's just a sidebar to the discussion, but it's important to point out b/c ppl in Hellmuth's position HAVE mucked the winning hand before.
@weatherallc05 haha. imagine u get good hands for a while, then for once u don´t - but it´s just small raise u risk - opponent folds. -- I would show my bluff.
new age etiquette, if you bluff and get caught then just muck your hand. If you think your high card is good then turn them over. wasting the other people's time who are at the table is bad etiquette.
I love all the micro-stakes online superheroes here who don't realize that Hellmuth is absolutely right. On the recap show Bellande admits he was wrong.
search Phil Hellmuth Vs. Jean Robert Bellande: RE: Etiquette
the only way hellmuth gets to see Bellande's cards is if he shows his hand! if he mucks his hand Bellande doesnt have to show his cards! Smith is dick!
@shaggz20022002 actually the winning hand is obliged to show their hand no matter what it is, it is a basic rule of poker hand structure. you cant win with nothing, it must be shown to the camera so they can audit it for reference if needed. basic rules mate, come back when you know them
@weatherallc05 what the fuck are you talking about, you definitly have a great deal to say to everyone on here, the fact that you are completely wrong is laughable! The cards were already shown to the hole cams you fool, plus Hellmuth FOLDED after JBs bet, so he DIDNT need to show his hand asshole
They are all pretty stupid. There was a bet and a call. Bellande has to show his hand to win. As for Phil's hand, if somebody wants to see it, he has to show. However, normally people at the table don't ask to see a hand in that situation (which is where the etiquette comes in).
Source: Somebody who has played around approx. 1 million hands of poker in his career
during a showdown , if I was the button and my opponent muck his cards after i called his raise, then i automatically get the pot. There were 2 and 1 quit.. why should i need to show my hand? Phil is just a big whining poker-brat... he lacks people-skills and sportsmanship.
fuck etiquette...this behaviour isnt even etiquette...what is he trying to do ? muck his hand and see the opponents hand...basically hes beggin for an advantage...its a con trick basically...thats supposed to be etiquette ? nice...thats all sissy bullshit and needs to be banned...play by the rules and thats it..if the rule is that the winner has to show his hand thats how it goes down and if he doesnt have to show then phil has to show his damn hand first...
@BeerIsTheDevil yeah well please that to all the people berating hellmuth, at least hellmuth knows this sort of etiquette. to win a hand of poker you must show a qualifying hand that is live, and if you do not show then you are implying it dead
The rule is that hellmuth has to show his hand for bellande to show his and take the pot. But if hellmuth threw his hand in the muck then the hand is dead which leaves bellande to win the pot and doesnt have to show, when bellande calls its good etiquette to show that you have lost the hand by turning you cards over!
So Phil your wrong, have good etiquette that your bluff was called and show it!!
@lcdwales nah mate, to win a pot the winning hand must show. hellmuth implied he was about to muck, and so bellande must show to take down the pot. ur just being biased and joining the bandwagon against phil. FUCK OFF YOU NAIVE CUNT
@weatherallc05 Hey I like phil so FUCK YOU!!, and get your facts right, If phil folds before the river bellande can throw his hand in face down and win the pot like everyone else does, so if phil wants to fold his hand face down after the river then bellande wins the pot even if he has 3 high so why does he need to show his hand??? YOU DULL CUNT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@weatherallc05 Hey I like phil so FUCK YOU!!, and get your facts right, If phil folds before the river bellande can throw his hand in face down and win the pot like everyone else does, so if phil wants to fold his hand face down after the river then bellande wins the pot even if he has 3 high so why does he need to show his hand??? YOU DULL CUNT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@weatherallc05 Hey I like phil so FUCK YOU!!, and get your facts right, If phil folds before the river bellande can throw his hand in face down and win the pot like everyone else does, so if phil wants to fold his hand face down after the river then bellande wins the pot even if he has 3 high so why does he need to show his hand??? YOU DULL CUNT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@weatherallc05 Hey I like phil so FUCK YOU!!, and get your facts right, If phil folds before the river bellande can throw his hand in face down and win the pot like everyone else does, so if phil wants to fold his hand face down after the river then bellande wins the pot even if he has 3 high so why does he need to show his hand??? YOU DULL CUNT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@GadztheGreat1 ha what the fuck do you know. phil has played for over 20 years, i think hes right to school that twat bellande (bellend ) on etiquette. FUCK OFF
GUYS, YOU DONT HAVE UNDERSTOOD ANYTHING? OFC HELLMUTH HAVE TO SHOW FIRST, BUUUUUT THE ETIQUETTE OF POKER IS IF YOU OPPONENT SAYS YOU "GOOD CALL, YOU WIN" YOU JUST SHOW YOUR PAIR OF NINES AND WIN THE POT, ITS EMBARRASMENT TO SHOW A BLUFF HAND, Hellmuth is right, and its a good lesson to teach to all amateurs.
@topofladder yeahh but he declared that he bluffed, soo surely thats basic implied etiquette for bellande to show. where i play, if i call or some1 else calls against a bluff then we just show our winning hand. it is a basic rule of a hand structure, please just fuck off
phil is the first to act, he shows or folds, jean-robert shouldnt show until phil has turned his cards over or folded. phil can say im bluffing you show first then after jean shows his 9 phil flips over trip aces? jean is in the right. anyway i slow roll people because i enjoy it hahaha
I've always been under the assumption that if you bluff on the river, and a guy calls you, he's obligated to show his hand, but you aren't. The trade off is THE CALLER WINS CHIPS BUT HAS TO SHOW HIS HAND. I agree, It's not really fair that everyone else gets that information about your hand and style, but, like i said, JeanRobertBellande wins money in the end. He reveals more about his psychological approach to the game by bitching than showing his hand. . . But that's hindsight. . .
@RimRodXS2000 Hellmuth is 100% correct here. He may be the Poker Brat, and blow up at the poker table a lot, but when it comes to common poker etiquette like slowrolls, showing cards, etc., Hellmuth always does the proper thing, as does any longtime pro.
Yeah, so you can ignore his many, many "you're a moron" blow-ups when others make perfectly good plays, just because they don't conform to Hellmuth's notion of what is the right or wrong to play a hand. Whether or not he is correct here, and I don't think he is, he is the LAST person in poker to lecture on etiquette.
@RimRodXS2000 ermmm no he aint mate, he just schooled bellande and was right soo stop joining the bandwagon against hellmuth just like every1 else who is jealous of his poker talent. CUNT
Nice one Apolyon, I laughted out loud when I saw your reply. Next time, just for you, I'll put ...'said Phil, the poker twat' after the little speech. After all, it was Phil's speech, not mine.
@irishdan2007 To win a pot you MUST show your hand. The only time when you win a pot and don't have to show your hand is if all the opponents fold. If opponent has paid to stay in the whole game he gets to see your hand. That's just how it is!
@irishdan2007 yeahh but implied etiquette man, any hand you win with you just show for fuck sake. like come on , whenever a hand is played on pokerstars the winning hand is always showed. always. basic etiquette and yet you fail at it.
technically Bellande doesn't have to show it. cause phil mucked, so even if he shows it there will be no hand to compare it to. Bellande hand is the only alive hand after Phil mucked (however he didn't mucked it in this video), so he instanly wins - however Phil showed his hand in the end and forced Bellande to show his hand. However, in life poker it's proper etiquette for the winner to show his hand if the guy who bluffed mucked before him.
@skaloon Different casinos and card rooms have different rules about that. In Helsinki, Finland (Grand Casino Helsinki) you have to show your hand (even if your opponent mucks) to win the pot. In Tallinn, Estonia (Olympic Casinos) you dont have to show your hand if your opponent mucks. Also there might be different rules on cash games and tournaments too.
yes ofcourse. but in most casinos, at least as much as i know, you don't have to show your hand. and in this particular game in this video - you didn't have to show it. but again it's proper etiquette to show it. and most pros show their hands in this situation.
Looks like Hellmuth didnt muck, cause is agianst rules his cards come back from the muck for a showdown ( so he's not into etiquette asking to see first Bellande cards and then mucks the loosing hand). Then even if Hellmuth mucks cannot pretend to see Bellande cards, the only thing he can do is to appoint Bellande as a rude poker player. Bellande can answer i dont give a fuck , collect the money and muck his hand!
Bellande have to show his hand to win...but in reality Hellmuth was called and should show his hand...though some highrollers/pros do it like Hellmuth and just mucks when called with a bluff...it's just ridicilious, just show the hand Phil.
@MrLunafied yeah I think if phil isn't going to show the hand and is just going to muck....that he should be ok with bellande just mucking too and taking the pot...if phil wants to make sure a winning hand gets turned over, he just needs to show and get on with his life
I agree with Bellande too. If Hellmuth wants to see his cards, he has to show his first. Simple. If he wants to muck and not divulge the information of his own hand, he has to be happy that Bellande follows suit.
@digbydan well said exactly my thoughts....you can't muck ur hand and then expect to automatically see the other persons hand...thats not equal playing field
from the moment you muck your hand , the other player wins automatically and doesn't even have to show his hand ... if you want to avoid such situations then don't muck but show your cards !
This is bullshit. If Bellande calls, Hellmuth has to show his cards first, it's rude ettiquite for Hellmuth to muck rather than show his 8-high in shame.
Bellande can muck all he wants after Hellmuth does.
Hellmuth is right, end of story. You do not have to like him to understand what he is talking about here. Bellande is an absolute douche here and Sam said it best, "He is a cheap limit player Phil, just show your hand."
Why don't more people realize how brilliant Hellmuth is? Notice his smile at the end. He just got more tv time and generated thousands of views of this video. The man is a marketing genious on top of his 11 WSOP bracelets.
Call me crazy, but I thought when everyone finished betting on the river (ie, the hand is over in terms of players making chip decisions), the player to the left of the dealer must show his / her hand, and then players after that make the decision to show or not show their cards. In this case, it would depend on who had the dealer chip.
The big question here is did Hellmuth release his hand. It appears he did at 2:56, but if he didn't, Bellande's response is actually quite reasonable.
But given Matasow chides Bellande into showing (which is also a breech of etiquette in a showdown), I assume Matasow saw Hellmuth's hand go in the muck.
1) The closest thing to etiquette here is if Hellmuth simply shows down in turn. Mucking when you're called is at least a gray area as it slows the game down when this confusion happens.
2) Since Hellmuth mucked, even if legal, unless collusion is suspected, no player should ask to see the mucked hand in terms of ettiquette.
3) Bellande should be willing to table his once Hellmuth's hand is irretrievable.
If you make a river bet and are called and decide to muck your hand your opponent is not required to show their hand to collect the pot. This is why a proper showdown should be in enforced. First it gives the idiot river bluff better something to think about before they bluff and two it helps keep the proper flow to the game. Once the person who made the river bet is called and mucks his hand the hand is over and no other actions need to take place except raking the pot.
Actually Hellmuth is wrong, Koffe282. If you bet on the river and you are called, the person calling your bet has the right to see your hand. You can muck your hand before you turn it over but then you also forfeit seeing the other persons hand or forcing them to show a better hand. If you are going to play poker you need to know the rules of the game. A river bet and showdown isn't that advanced that people should be getting it wrong constantly.
If, during the hand, Hellmuth had moved his hand in the muck, Bellande shouldn't have had to show his hand. Same when you fold, you don't have to show it. When you call though, you call to see the hand of the opponent, and when he says "you got it", in order to avoid humiliating him by showing a missed bluff, you show your hand and take down the pot.
Bellande was just being a toolbox extraordinary here.
The Point here is: Bellande paid of to see Hellmuths' hand. like: "you wanna see? it costs you!" so Phil can NOT MUCK his hand here. If he does, he loses, JP mucks also, game over, crying out loud Phil Hellmuth and all you wankers out here on youtube.
How in the whole world can someone who plays cash for longer period not now this etiquette?! Especially playing on so high limits.. shame on You Bellande!
Even Bellande later admitted he was wrong. and say what you want about Hellmuth, but he has followed this etiquette in the past. there's a HSP hand where Todd Brunson tried to bluff him, Phil called, and he didn't make Brunson show.
Suppose Bellande had a worse hand than Hellmuth, but Hellmuth said "you got it. Now imagine e Bellande follows the poker etiquette and shows his weaker hand, would Hellmuth get paid or not?
I kept hearing about a new book called SECRET ADVANTAGES OF A POKER PRO so i finally tried to check it out and i must admit it was great! its an ebook on amazon and barns n noble! its got real techniques you can use before during and after you go play cards!
Player who was called otr, is always the first one to show his hand or muck. JPR doesn't have to show because he made a good call against a bluff. If it was me, I'd be holding my cards down all day till Phill finally desides to muck. We all know what this cry baby was trying to accompish. Phill, you suck ass and you are wrong most of the time. Stop bitching, no one gives you respect anyway. Stick with yoga donk.
@EugenKaalikas The thing is that since Phil is first to act, Phil has to do one of two things, either show or muck. One thing you have to say about Phil though: Not only did he write the book on etiquette, but he still edits it.
...In any card game, the proper etiquette is you have to PAY to see your opponents hand. If you decide to muck your hand and show it to the players, then tough shit!! You want to see your opponents hand you call the bet! Simple and quite straight forward. Simple thing is to fold and lay your cards face down, keep the opponents guessing too!
I thought the standard rule was that if Phil were to muck here, Bellande would have to show his hand to win the pot. This was a bet and call situation, not a bet and fold. If Phil mucks, Bellande mucks, and Bellande gets the pot, then that would open up huge possibilities of collusion, among other things.
The reason Bellande is supposed to show before Phil actually mucks is so that if Phil's bluff miraculously beats his call (say calling with A high), then he should still get to win.
@TarWoman well Phil was talking about etiquette. Rule wise, Bellande was right and Phil knew the rule. But he was arguing that typically when he a player says, "you got it", it tells him that "hey i was bluffing, u win". Theres no need to add to the embarrassment of getting bluffed. Bellande should be happy to win the pot and move on.
@samueljue the main problem with Phil's argument of etiquette is that he didn't even play by the rules when he mucked his hand. It seems ridiculous to expect proper etiquette from another player when you don't even respect him enough to play by the proper rules.
I'll bet you $10,000 phil that you have one of the worst attitudes at a poker table
TheAmericanDane 1 week ago
We thought you had 4 Aces.......awesome
Johnrl21 1 week ago
Good god it's a small pot with two fart hands just turn the damn cards over!
Kentmoney53 2 weeks ago
i dont understand why slow rolling is considered wrong. It's a game thats as much about psychology as maths and so not slow rolling to psyche out others at the table seems stupid.
autobot69000 2 weeks ago
Just watched a re-run of the 2011 $50k Poker Player’s C'ship, where the poker twat came second to Brian Rast. Hellmutt chased the flush draw 3 times in a row and threw away a 5:1 chip lead. Instead of congratulating Rast for winning, poker twat told Rast he should tip the dealer a $1m.
Imagine if Rast had gone all-in on a flush draw against a Hellmutt straight, hit it, and won! Imagine the shit he would have come out with!!
A masterclass on how not to behave at the table from the poker twat.
poxrider 1 month ago
Hellmuth has to show first that the proper etiquit actually is once your called to show your hand. Hellmuth didn't want to show his hand. he just wanted to see johns hand and nobody sees his. John can throw his hand away as soon as hellmuth mucks his hand. Once john shows hellmuth can still muck and not show. Hellmuth just wanted to see and not show his hand he was actually in the wrong. He was mad he got caught bluffing and wanted to tilt john.
cardshark598 1 month ago
@cardshark598
Almost. It would be insane for John to "throw his hand away" after Hellmuth mucked his own hand. If Hellmuth mucks his hand first, then John merely has to turn over his own 'nothing cards' and wins the pot. There's a video here on youtube where some chick rivers a straight against Tony G. She had the hand won until she mucked her cards, not realizing that she hit the straight (thinking that Tony had her beat). Tony automatically won with trips even though her straight was good.
MacBubbles 3 weeks ago
@MacBubbles
So you understood nothing /
The discution isn't about rules
Rules are simple - when Helmuth mucked he lost.
But etiquette says that Bellande should expose his hole cards.
TheVKilla 3 weeks ago
@TheVKilla
No, you completely misunderstood my point. I support Phil's stance on etiquette here. I was just pointing out to cardshark598 that John would've NEVER thrown his hand away if Hellmuth mucked his cards 1st. The point I was making to him was that if you muck the winning hand, you automatically LOOSE when your opponent (e.g., Bellande) turns over his cards. It has happened before (e.g., Tony G). And, sometimes, opponents will trick you into mucking your winning hands (angle-shooting).
MacBubbles 3 weeks ago
@TheVKilla
The genius in this was that Hellmuth was witty enough to put the heat on Bellande by making it look like Bellande was trying to trick him into mucking his cards. Normally, Hellmuth (or any other player in this position) just would've turned over their cards & won the pot. Hellmuth was trying to show that Bellande could've gotten away with a dirty move had Hellmuth mucked his cards. It was a great poker lesson & worth the slowroll. But, again, winning hands are mucked on occasion.
MacBubbles 3 weeks ago
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MacBubbles 3 weeks ago
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@TheVKilla
Spark notes: I never said Bellande shouldn't have exposed his hole cards. My original post wasn't about rules or etiquette, nor was it about whether or not Hellmuth should've showed his hand. It was about whether or not Hellmuth (or anyone in that same position) should've mucked his cards. It's just a sidebar to the discussion, but it's important to point out b/c ppl in Hellmuth's position HAVE mucked the winning hand before.
MacBubbles 3 weeks ago
JRB...BOSS
goforit247 1 month ago
for all you dickheads out there: never show a bluff!
jesus christ, how can you forget this
weatherallc05 1 month ago
@weatherallc05 haha. imagine u get good hands for a while, then for once u don´t - but it´s just small raise u risk - opponent folds. -- I would show my bluff.
LowStackTom 1 month ago
@LowStackTom THANKS FOR THE INSITE. YOU MUST CRUSH SOULS.
goforit247 1 month ago
As if JRB could afford to make that bet!
FreshChalk 1 month ago
new age etiquette, if you bluff and get caught then just muck your hand. If you think your high card is good then turn them over. wasting the other people's time who are at the table is bad etiquette.
win9haha 1 month ago
Who gives a F about poker Etiquette? Just obey the poker's room's rules!
dnguyen1960 1 month ago
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dnguyen1960 1 month ago
I love all the micro-stakes online superheroes here who don't realize that Hellmuth is absolutely right. On the recap show Bellande admits he was wrong.
search Phil Hellmuth Vs. Jean Robert Bellande: RE: Etiquette
mikeyanagita1 1 month ago
the only way hellmuth gets to see Bellande's cards is if he shows his hand! if he mucks his hand Bellande doesnt have to show his cards! Smith is dick!
shaggz20022002 1 month ago
@shaggz20022002 actually the winning hand is obliged to show their hand no matter what it is, it is a basic rule of poker hand structure. you cant win with nothing, it must be shown to the camera so they can audit it for reference if needed. basic rules mate, come back when you know them
weatherallc05 1 month ago
@weatherallc05 what the fuck are you talking about, you definitly have a great deal to say to everyone on here, the fact that you are completely wrong is laughable! The cards were already shown to the hole cams you fool, plus Hellmuth FOLDED after JBs bet, so he DIDNT need to show his hand asshole
shaggz20022002 1 month ago
@shaggz20022002 the hole cams arent human but the players are. they are entitled to see the hand, standard practice u cuntflaps
weatherallc05 1 month ago
@weatherallc05 You have posted at least 30 comments in the past day... get a life... no one cares...
Apolyon0 1 month ago
@Apolyon0 yeah u cant tell me to do jackshit bitch
weatherallc05 1 month ago
in a tournament john robert was reluctant to show his hand after a failed bluff (much like hellmuth here)
his opponent asked him to show first and john-robert sat there and said he had king high (still choosing not to immediately show)
yet in this video john-robert is waiting for hellmuth to show his hand. this guy is a douche
Bladen12345 2 months ago
They are all pretty stupid. There was a bet and a call. Bellande has to show his hand to win. As for Phil's hand, if somebody wants to see it, he has to show. However, normally people at the table don't ask to see a hand in that situation (which is where the etiquette comes in).
Source: Somebody who has played around approx. 1 million hands of poker in his career
zackryan01 2 months ago
@zackryan01 "Bellande has to show his hand to win." - Not if Phil mucks his hand.
"As for Phil's hand, if somebody wants to see it, he has to show." - Not if Phil decides to muck it.
"Source: Somebody who has played around approx. 1 million hands of poker in his career" - The source needs to play more poker.
achih3012 2 months ago
@achih3012 piss off, it is a basic rule that you show the winning hand
weatherallc05 1 month ago
during a showdown , if I was the button and my opponent muck his cards after i called his raise, then i automatically get the pot. There were 2 and 1 quit.. why should i need to show my hand? Phil is just a big whining poker-brat... he lacks people-skills and sportsmanship.
pitoakatheone 2 months ago
any 1 knows the real rules?
ikweetbeter 2 months ago
"we thought you had 4 aces!" lol
canuckz 2 months ago 2
fuck etiquette...this behaviour isnt even etiquette...what is he trying to do ? muck his hand and see the opponents hand...basically hes beggin for an advantage...its a con trick basically...thats supposed to be etiquette ? nice...thats all sissy bullshit and needs to be banned...play by the rules and thats it..if the rule is that the winner has to show his hand thats how it goes down and if he doesnt have to show then phil has to show his damn hand first...
tschuggggi 2 months ago
Who cares about Etiquette? If you're suppose to show your hand first then show it. Etiquete is playing by the rules.
88riddlemethis 3 months ago 2
If both players check whether the guy said you won or not, they both need to slow their hand. Bottomline.
88riddlemethis 3 months ago
Belande is a fool and completely wrong here.
BeerIsTheDevil 4 months ago
@BeerIsTheDevil yeah well please that to all the people berating hellmuth, at least hellmuth knows this sort of etiquette. to win a hand of poker you must show a qualifying hand that is live, and if you do not show then you are implying it dead
weatherallc05 1 month ago
The rule is that hellmuth has to show his hand for bellande to show his and take the pot. But if hellmuth threw his hand in the muck then the hand is dead which leaves bellande to win the pot and doesnt have to show, when bellande calls its good etiquette to show that you have lost the hand by turning you cards over!
So Phil your wrong, have good etiquette that your bluff was called and show it!!
lcdwales 4 months ago
@lcdwales nah mate, to win a pot the winning hand must show. hellmuth implied he was about to muck, and so bellande must show to take down the pot. ur just being biased and joining the bandwagon against phil. FUCK OFF YOU NAIVE CUNT
weatherallc05 1 month ago
@weatherallc05 Hey I like phil so FUCK YOU!!, and get your facts right, If phil folds before the river bellande can throw his hand in face down and win the pot like everyone else does, so if phil wants to fold his hand face down after the river then bellande wins the pot even if he has 3 high so why does he need to show his hand??? YOU DULL CUNT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
lcdwales 1 month ago
@lcdwales lad the other players are allowed to see the winning hand, its just faggot town if someone is too scared to show a winner
weatherallc05 1 month ago 2
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@weatherallc05 Hey I like phil so FUCK YOU!!, and get your facts right, If phil folds before the river bellande can throw his hand in face down and win the pot like everyone else does, so if phil wants to fold his hand face down after the river then bellande wins the pot even if he has 3 high so why does he need to show his hand??? YOU DULL CUNT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
lcdwales 1 month ago
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@weatherallc05 Hey I like phil so FUCK YOU!!, and get your facts right, If phil folds before the river bellande can throw his hand in face down and win the pot like everyone else does, so if phil wants to fold his hand face down after the river then bellande wins the pot even if he has 3 high so why does he need to show his hand??? YOU DULL CUNT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
lcdwales 1 month ago
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@weatherallc05 Hey I like phil so FUCK YOU!!, and get your facts right, If phil folds before the river bellande can throw his hand in face down and win the pot like everyone else does, so if phil wants to fold his hand face down after the river then bellande wins the pot even if he has 3 high so why does he need to show his hand??? YOU DULL CUNT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
lcdwales 1 month ago
Phil is just mad cause he got caught
KwNJn1 4 months ago
HEY PHIL, ill bet you $10,000 that it isnt proper poker etiquette to yell and swear at your opponents when you lose!
GadztheGreat1 4 months ago 20
@GadztheGreat1 ha what the fuck do you know. phil has played for over 20 years, i think hes right to school that twat bellande (bellend ) on etiquette. FUCK OFF
weatherallc05 1 month ago
GUYS, YOU DONT HAVE UNDERSTOOD ANYTHING? OFC HELLMUTH HAVE TO SHOW FIRST, BUUUUUT THE ETIQUETTE OF POKER IS IF YOU OPPONENT SAYS YOU "GOOD CALL, YOU WIN" YOU JUST SHOW YOUR PAIR OF NINES AND WIN THE POT, ITS EMBARRASMENT TO SHOW A BLUFF HAND, Hellmuth is right, and its a good lesson to teach to all amateurs.
Alephify 4 months ago
i believe helmuth is wrong in this situation just flip over your damn hand i mean its easy
topofladder 4 months ago
@topofladder yeahh but he declared that he bluffed, soo surely thats basic implied etiquette for bellande to show. where i play, if i call or some1 else calls against a bluff then we just show our winning hand. it is a basic rule of a hand structure, please just fuck off
weatherallc05 1 month ago
isnt helmuth supposed to show first because he was the last to raise?
zing9753 4 months ago
phil is the first to act, he shows or folds, jean-robert shouldnt show until phil has turned his cards over or folded. phil can say im bluffing you show first then after jean shows his 9 phil flips over trip aces? jean is in the right. anyway i slow roll people because i enjoy it hahaha
TheRealJoeSparrow 4 months ago
I've always been under the assumption that if you bluff on the river, and a guy calls you, he's obligated to show his hand, but you aren't. The trade off is THE CALLER WINS CHIPS BUT HAS TO SHOW HIS HAND. I agree, It's not really fair that everyone else gets that information about your hand and style, but, like i said, JeanRobertBellande wins money in the end. He reveals more about his psychological approach to the game by bitching than showing his hand. . . But that's hindsight. . .
mrmekone 5 months ago
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the most exersise gavin smith has ever done was standing up then
yousnotright 5 months ago
the most exersive gavin smith has ever done was standing up then
yousnotright 5 months ago 6
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VicenzoV 5 months ago
THAT WAS A GREAT CALL, WE THOUGHT YOU HAD 4 ACES LOL AHAHAH
2lucky67 5 months ago
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VicenzoV 5 months ago
Etiquette?? Phil Hellmuth talking about ETIQUETTE????
The guy is a MORON, he knows NOTHING about poker, he couldn't SPELL poker, honey this FOOL is talking about ETIQUETTE!!!
Btw if Hellmuth 'mucked' his hand saying "you win" and J-R turns over 2 3, dosen't J-R win anyway, as the poker twat had mucked his hand?
RimRodXS2000 5 months ago
@RimRodXS2000 Hellmuth is 100% correct here. He may be the Poker Brat, and blow up at the poker table a lot, but when it comes to common poker etiquette like slowrolls, showing cards, etc., Hellmuth always does the proper thing, as does any longtime pro.
Aaronmn156 5 months ago
@Aaronmn156
Yeah, so you can ignore his many, many "you're a moron" blow-ups when others make perfectly good plays, just because they don't conform to Hellmuth's notion of what is the right or wrong to play a hand. Whether or not he is correct here, and I don't think he is, he is the LAST person in poker to lecture on etiquette.
RimRodXS2000 5 months ago
@RimRodXS2000 ermmm no he aint mate, he just schooled bellande and was right soo stop joining the bandwagon against hellmuth just like every1 else who is jealous of his poker talent. CUNT
weatherallc05 1 month ago
@weatherallc05
hey shit eater, did you do a course on sounding like a bell-end, or does it just come naturally?
RimRodXS2000 1 month ago
@RimRodXS2000 yeah he won eleven bracelets knowing nothing about poker. lol
Apolyon0 5 months ago
@Apolyon0
Nice one Apolyon, I laughted out loud when I saw your reply. Next time, just for you, I'll put ...'said Phil, the poker twat' after the little speech. After all, it was Phil's speech, not mine.
RimRodXS2000 5 months ago
@Apolyon0 ermmmm obviously not you thick shit
weatherallc05 1 month ago
you know it's got out of hand when the most annoying, irritating player, gavin smith is getting upset at other players' behaviour at the table
darius595 5 months ago 2
I'm not an a genius on poker or anything, but what if bellande doesn't show his hand he will still win otherwise who will win the pot???
TheFogey17 5 months ago
@TheFogey17 If Phil folds before he sees Bellande's hand then Bellande does not have to show his hand.
bjornar83 5 months ago
why would you call and dont want to show the hand
charlsleeray 6 months ago
professional poker players...that don't know how to play poker.
teknomogul 6 months ago
lol. live players
eatasandwich101 6 months ago
Mike Matusow such a fuckin fgt at 5:54
goldenstyx 6 months ago
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goldenstyx 6 months ago
IDIOTS: A CALLED HAND MUST ALWAYS SHOW. AGAIN, IDIOTS.
TheUndertoker 6 months ago
its a called hand, the winner has to show.
leetDAWG 6 months ago
bellande is right he doesnt have to show his hand if hellmuth mucked his hand
irishdan2007 6 months ago
@irishdan2007 your retarded, its a called hand.. he has to show!
leetDAWG 6 months ago
@leetDAWG nope coz hellmuth folded his hand which means his hand is dead
irishdan2007 6 months ago
@irishdan2007 Not true.
riffdex69 6 months ago
@riffdex69 true
irishdan2007 6 months ago
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riffdex69 6 months ago
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@irishdan2007 To win a pot you MUST show your hand. The only time when you win a pot and don't have to show your hand is if all the opponents fold. If opponent has paid to stay in the whole game he gets to see your hand. That's just how it is!
riffdex69 6 months ago
@riffdex69 hellmuth folded his hand therefore his hand is dead giving bellande the win
irishdan2007 6 months ago
@irishdan2007 yeahh but implied etiquette man, any hand you win with you just show for fuck sake. like come on , whenever a hand is played on pokerstars the winning hand is always showed. always. basic etiquette and yet you fail at it.
weatherallc05 1 month ago
@irishdan2007 even if hellmuth mucks, its a called hand. the winner has to show
leetDAWG 6 months ago
@leetDAWG
technically Bellande doesn't have to show it. cause phil mucked, so even if he shows it there will be no hand to compare it to. Bellande hand is the only alive hand after Phil mucked (however he didn't mucked it in this video), so he instanly wins - however Phil showed his hand in the end and forced Bellande to show his hand. However, in life poker it's proper etiquette for the winner to show his hand if the guy who bluffed mucked before him.
skaloon 6 months ago
@skaloon technically your wrong. its a called hand, winner has to show.
leetDAWG 6 months ago
@leetDAWG
no in live poker if someone mucks before you - you don't have to show it - even if it's a CALLED HAND.
skaloon 6 months ago
@skaloon Different casinos and card rooms have different rules about that. In Helsinki, Finland (Grand Casino Helsinki) you have to show your hand (even if your opponent mucks) to win the pot. In Tallinn, Estonia (Olympic Casinos) you dont have to show your hand if your opponent mucks. Also there might be different rules on cash games and tournaments too.
kieku87 6 months ago
@kieku87
yes ofcourse. but in most casinos, at least as much as i know, you don't have to show your hand. and in this particular game in this video - you didn't have to show it. but again it's proper etiquette to show it. and most pros show their hands in this situation.
skaloon 6 months ago
like a maggot arguing with a worm....
1skullduggery 6 months ago
you got to show to win...I've never played a table that didn't follow this rule.
wizdoomb 6 months ago
Mmmk..is there COCKTAILS!?
ARNOLDGOVONATOR 6 months ago
Lol Grizzle is so right on calling Bellande a cheap limit player, soul read.
laffizzle 6 months ago
@laffizzle lol
Oreillyisthebest 6 months ago
Looks like Hellmuth didnt muck, cause is agianst rules his cards come back from the muck for a showdown ( so he's not into etiquette asking to see first Bellande cards and then mucks the loosing hand). Then even if Hellmuth mucks cannot pretend to see Bellande cards, the only thing he can do is to appoint Bellande as a rude poker player. Bellande can answer i dont give a fuck , collect the money and muck his hand!
futuroleghista 6 months ago
It's respect for looser not compel him to show the loosing hand if he gives up, but hellmuth cards looks like are not in the muck (video not clear)!
Rules: Bellande is obviously right
Etiquette: Bellande is right as far Hellmuth didnt muck his hand
Situation: If Hellmuth didnt muck and only says you win, he broke etiquette Bellande is right to stay at rules!
futuroleghista 6 months ago
Bellande is right and Hellmuth is a crybaby!
futuroleghista 6 months ago
Bellande is out of line.
zzangzzang1 6 months ago
You have to show the winning hand in tournaments also..I know you have to in cash game!?
MrLunafied 6 months ago
Bellande have to show his hand to win...but in reality Hellmuth was called and should show his hand...though some highrollers/pros do it like Hellmuth and just mucks when called with a bluff...it's just ridicilious, just show the hand Phil.
MrLunafied 6 months ago
@MrLunafied yeah I think if phil isn't going to show the hand and is just going to muck....that he should be ok with bellande just mucking too and taking the pot...if phil wants to make sure a winning hand gets turned over, he just needs to show and get on with his life
Oreillyisthebest 6 months ago
what a bunch of ego babies know-it-all(-in) dicks
fapsqpz 6 months ago
what the hell is wrong with Gavin seriously
ai3n10 6 months ago
3:36 "let me tell you how stupid you are" sheik is such a prick
brunoproducer 7 months ago
@brunoproducer thats kharma since he is proably getting deported lol
ai3n10 6 months ago
I agree with Bellande too. If Hellmuth wants to see his cards, he has to show his first. Simple. If he wants to muck and not divulge the information of his own hand, he has to be happy that Bellande follows suit.
digbydan 7 months ago
@digbydan well said exactly my thoughts....you can't muck ur hand and then expect to automatically see the other persons hand...thats not equal playing field
Oreillyisthebest 6 months ago
from the moment you muck your hand , the other player wins automatically and doesn't even have to show his hand ... if you want to avoid such situations then don't muck but show your cards !
angerfist444 7 months ago
This is bullshit. If Bellande calls, Hellmuth has to show his cards first, it's rude ettiquite for Hellmuth to muck rather than show his 8-high in shame.
Bellande can muck all he wants after Hellmuth does.
gav800 7 months ago
epic union between Sheiky and Phil
teebchee0515 7 months ago
so which is correct etiquette? i know both are aginst the rules already.
etiquette is (1) you win, other guy shows and wins or (2) you muck other guy mucks and takes the pot -- which is right?
erichiguera 7 months ago
@erichiguera To win/claim a pot you have to show your hand. In this situation, Bellande should have shown his hand and be done with it.
robnwk2006 7 months ago
@erichiguera the winning hand must be declared, it is common etiquette whether semantic or implied. its basic pragmatic action, you just do it
weatherallc05 1 month ago
"can I say one more thing?"
"NO!"
ELREndLondonRule 7 months ago
What the fuck was Matusow's "Tratatata" thing at 5:54 xD Killed me!
AikiNickAMV 7 months ago
Now i wanna see it :D:D somebody kill mike )))
PataraQartveli 7 months ago
I actually happen to agree with Bellande here
chickenbrad 7 months ago
Hellmuth is a crybaby most of the time but he is right here.
wogacelli 7 months ago
Hellmuth is right, end of story. You do not have to like him to understand what he is talking about here. Bellande is an absolute douche here and Sam said it best, "He is a cheap limit player Phil, just show your hand."
LesPaulAllStar 7 months ago
Why don't more people realize how brilliant Hellmuth is? Notice his smile at the end. He just got more tv time and generated thousands of views of this video. The man is a marketing genious on top of his 11 WSOP bracelets.
hughj34 7 months ago
Phil Hellmuth is such a prick!
Bescumberer 7 months ago
Okay, so Hellmuth talking about table etiquette is a parody, but he is right here.
missingnote 7 months ago
in the first time in my life i agree with hellmuth ahahahaha
dedezaopl 7 months ago
Jean-Robert Bellande is my least favorite of all the poker players. Even more so then Men the Master.
AnimeIntroStyles4 7 months ago
Call me crazy, but I thought when everyone finished betting on the river (ie, the hand is over in terms of players making chip decisions), the player to the left of the dealer must show his / her hand, and then players after that make the decision to show or not show their cards. In this case, it would depend on who had the dealer chip.
hydroman333 7 months ago
i love the fact that it's phil hellmuth talking about poker etiquette!
jayjaymatt 7 months ago
The big question here is did Hellmuth release his hand. It appears he did at 2:56, but if he didn't, Bellande's response is actually quite reasonable.
But given Matasow chides Bellande into showing (which is also a breech of etiquette in a showdown), I assume Matasow saw Hellmuth's hand go in the muck.
nylac100 7 months ago
Everybody is wrong here
1) The closest thing to etiquette here is if Hellmuth simply shows down in turn. Mucking when you're called is at least a gray area as it slows the game down when this confusion happens.
2) Since Hellmuth mucked, even if legal, unless collusion is suspected, no player should ask to see the mucked hand in terms of ettiquette.
3) Bellande should be willing to table his once Hellmuth's hand is irretrievable.
nylac100 7 months ago
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nylac100 7 months ago
phil is a good guy when he wants
KakashiHatakeeee 7 months ago
If you make a river bet and are called and decide to muck your hand your opponent is not required to show their hand to collect the pot. This is why a proper showdown should be in enforced. First it gives the idiot river bluff better something to think about before they bluff and two it helps keep the proper flow to the game. Once the person who made the river bet is called and mucks his hand the hand is over and no other actions need to take place except raking the pot.
spikenn616 7 months ago
Actually Hellmuth is wrong, Koffe282. If you bet on the river and you are called, the person calling your bet has the right to see your hand. You can muck your hand before you turn it over but then you also forfeit seeing the other persons hand or forcing them to show a better hand. If you are going to play poker you need to know the rules of the game. A river bet and showdown isn't that advanced that people should be getting it wrong constantly.
spikenn616 7 months ago
If, during the hand, Hellmuth had moved his hand in the muck, Bellande shouldn't have had to show his hand. Same when you fold, you don't have to show it. When you call though, you call to see the hand of the opponent, and when he says "you got it", in order to avoid humiliating him by showing a missed bluff, you show your hand and take down the pot.
Bellande was just being a toolbox extraordinary here.
zHqqrdz 7 months ago
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The Point here is: Bellande paid of to see Hellmuths' hand. like: "you wanna see? it costs you!" so Phil can NOT MUCK his hand here. If he does, he loses, JP mucks also, game over, crying out loud Phil Hellmuth and all you wankers out here on youtube.
USMHK 7 months ago
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USMHK 7 months ago
3:37 "let me tell you how stupid you are" sheik is a fucking dumbass!
brunoproducer 8 months ago
How in the whole world can someone who plays cash for longer period not now this etiquette?! Especially playing on so high limits.. shame on You Bellande!
MrMobster1980 8 months ago
Gavin Smith....LOL! Mocking Phil from the last time he blew up! classic! lol....
jimyaj 8 months ago
Even Bellande later admitted he was wrong. and say what you want about Hellmuth, but he has followed this etiquette in the past. there's a HSP hand where Todd Brunson tried to bluff him, Phil called, and he didn't make Brunson show.
larrymcg421 8 months ago
where the fuck the poker etiquette is written in anyway. I'd say it's against common sense if u want to know his cards but not willing to show yours.
lehapankov 8 months ago
phil hellmuth talking abt poker etiquette when he hasnt got any
freqe 8 months ago
Suppose Bellande had a worse hand than Hellmuth, but Hellmuth said "you got it. Now imagine e Bellande follows the poker etiquette and shows his weaker hand, would Hellmuth get paid or not?
msokol89 8 months ago
@msokol89 well, i think if a player was confident that he was up against high card he would show win or lose.
weatherallc05 1 month ago
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champions20000009 8 months ago
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I kept hearing about a new book called SECRET ADVANTAGES OF A POKER PRO so i finally tried to check it out and i must admit it was great! its an ebook on amazon and barns n noble! its got real techniques you can use before during and after you go play cards!
SuperOldwiseman 8 months ago
@Koffe382 JeanRobert is right
rksremarcable1 8 months ago
Forget poker etiquette, Jean-robert is right. He pays to see what Phil raises. and if phil mucks then Jean-robert wins even if he mucks too.
Hellmuth is NOT right and Sheik is stupid
rksremarcable1 8 months ago
Forget poker etiquette, Jean-robert is right. He pays to see what Phil raises. and if phil mucks then Jean-robert wins even if he mucks too.
Hellmuth is NOT right
rksremarcable1 8 months ago
As if anyones going to get some ridiculous read on him from showing a pretty standard hand yeah its bad etiquette but its more just stupid
FreakyGirl3333 8 months ago
Player who was called otr, is always the first one to show his hand or muck. JPR doesn't have to show because he made a good call against a bluff. If it was me, I'd be holding my cards down all day till Phill finally desides to muck. We all know what this cry baby was trying to accompish. Phill, you suck ass and you are wrong most of the time. Stop bitching, no one gives you respect anyway. Stick with yoga donk.
vybsga 8 months ago
Mike Matusow annoys the hell out of me. But He is frickin hilarious at times "Now I wanna see it, I wanna see em' both!" lol
toptoffee1 8 months ago
You can't win a hand at showdown if you don't show it. Winning hand has to be shown.
qouithhoieqth 8 months ago
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champions20000009 8 months ago
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And that Bobby Bellande is why you won't be asked back on Poker After Dark. You unethical, survivor, wannabe poker player.
pokeherdummy 8 months ago
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pokeherdummy 8 months ago
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pokeherdummy 8 months ago
am i real ?
peta238 8 months ago
What did Grizzle and Bellande say that got beeped?
gauchoamigo7 8 months ago
you donot have to show your hand when everybody else have mucked!
EugenKaalikas 8 months ago
@EugenKaalikas The thing is that since Phil is first to act, Phil has to do one of two things, either show or muck. One thing you have to say about Phil though: Not only did he write the book on etiquette, but he still edits it.
Gunman610 8 months ago
...In any card game, the proper etiquette is you have to PAY to see your opponents hand. If you decide to muck your hand and show it to the players, then tough shit!! You want to see your opponents hand you call the bet! Simple and quite straight forward. Simple thing is to fold and lay your cards face down, keep the opponents guessing too!
coltsuperocean10 9 months ago
I thought the standard rule was that if Phil were to muck here, Bellande would have to show his hand to win the pot. This was a bet and call situation, not a bet and fold. If Phil mucks, Bellande mucks, and Bellande gets the pot, then that would open up huge possibilities of collusion, among other things.
The reason Bellande is supposed to show before Phil actually mucks is so that if Phil's bluff miraculously beats his call (say calling with A high), then he should still get to win.
mrt110883 9 months ago
Bellande shouldn't have to she if Phil doesn't show him his hand, the hand being called.
Phil was wrong to muck. He should have shown when he was called.
Hellmuth giving a lecture on etiquette? HAHAHHAHAROFLLMAO
TarWoman 9 months ago
@TarWoman well Phil was talking about etiquette. Rule wise, Bellande was right and Phil knew the rule. But he was arguing that typically when he a player says, "you got it", it tells him that "hey i was bluffing, u win". Theres no need to add to the embarrassment of getting bluffed. Bellande should be happy to win the pot and move on.
samueljue 8 months ago
@samueljue He was willing to move on. It was Phil that was insistent on seeing his hand.
TarWoman 8 months ago
@samueljue the main problem with Phil's argument of etiquette is that he didn't even play by the rules when he mucked his hand. It seems ridiculous to expect proper etiquette from another player when you don't even respect him enough to play by the proper rules.