Nicholas Humphrey Interview (2/4) - Richard Dawkins

[macsm]

I can see the psychologist point, but not too convinced on his argument. You'd have to verify his claims first...

[TheEggBeast]

This guy is like a modern-day Gandalf!

[Kan2209]

Some would spend too much of it, and die off, leaving the smart people who didnt over do it.

But the more plausable thought might be that if there ever was a time where people could heal themselves by thought, the people who couldnt ruled, as they used their resources in a more balanced way. This was all ridiculous banter, but evolution truly is magical.

[akrulla]

I don't get ill.......because I don't get ill. I have a huge immune system ego!

[MrBabs12345]

Why do all richard dawkins interviews take place while standing up???

[mistereveready]

@MrBabs12345 They don't. there is an interview with a bishop where he and the bishop are sitting nicely. either way, probably doesnt matter. maybe it is a time limiter or he's tired of sitting and arguing against stupid creationist and needs to stretch his legs.

[MrBabs12345]

@mistereveready I like your reasoning at the end, :) but in general i do stand corrected.

[drongovids]

this shit is blowing my mind.

[10dmartin10]

no... he is saying that the placebo effect has a measurable medical effect, and effect that is confounded in all drugs.

[kid29a]

This guy doesn't know that drugs are always tested in comparison to placebo effect. If something works just like placebo it means it doesn't work.

[Bobstew68]

@kid29a The drug itself doesn't provide the placebo, the context does. As far as I understand, the tests you're speaking of have a control group which is given a sugar pill (or similar unimportant drug) separate from the group that is given the real drug we're testing. Both groups are told something neutral like "this is a drug meant to combat X", and the control group usually has a bit of placebo because of the suggestion. Humphrey is arguing that suggestions can be made in more effective ways.

[Hufflewaffle]

People are social animals. Why is it so difficult to understand that positive social connections between people generally (not just doctors and patients) enable and encourage healing and maintain good health. Its not magic, its the fundamental human experience of living a life that includes such things as love, friendship and trust. We require positive social connections. Science is by its very nature, suspicious and skeptical but a life lived alone and in suspicion is really a life not lived.

[AtheistBrit]

I don't think anyone said that it's "magic" or disputed the benefits of love, friendship, trust etc. They are real, measurable effects that scientists would advocate and "believe" in as much as the next person.

[Ryosuke1208]

Yes, happy people who get less stressed are much less likely to get a diseas than depressed people.

[kurtilein3]

"its sometimes not safe to take painkillers"

yeah. when you are an athlete competing at the olympic games, for example. no, seriously, this is bullshit. pain sucks, and a constant high level of pain also consumes a lot of the resources the body might have. ever tried to sleep with a pain level way too high for sleeping?

this philosopher has no idea what he is talking about. pain causes people to go to the doctor when they should, but apart from that signaling function it just hurts you.

[bbsonjohn]

You should know what "sometimes" means.

[DSAhmed]

nice connection to the economic meltdown.

[dalinean]

Sounds like a load of flim flam to me.

Certainly, the placebo effect is real.

So is chronic disease.

How do you tell the difference between a self curable disease and one that causes real physical problems?

Where to draw the 'line'?

[analubalitious]

Sense a placebo only behaves in a neutral or positive way, there is not much harm in trying it first ( only for conditions that COULD be psychological in nature - a broken leg or failing heart need real medicine ).

When he says 'pain in a natural defense' he's technically right, but that doesn't mean the source of the pain is psychological. If the machinery of the body shutting is down, you can train yourself not to feel the pain, but that's probably not a sufficient cure to save your life.

[dannyboy15]

where did you read about these studies?

[bboychoco]

Really? That is exciting.. Is that why homeopathy and other stupid forms of medicine are so popular?

[furyofbongos]

So now that I know that I might be able to get my knee cured by a skin incision only, will it still work?

[dannyboy15]

...i sometimes take vitamins for the placebo effect of taking a pill lol

[erther2]

I hope that's meant to be irony.

[dannyboy15]

it isn't , it works because i think it does because i believe in the power of the placebo effect. ha.

[bboychoco]

umm, I guess you dont understand placebo

[dannyboy15]

of course i understand placebo, it's not exactly a hard concept.

but consider this:

If a subject is shown the results of some studies, showing the 'startling' effectiveness of placebos and then is given what he/ she knows is a placebo, will it have an effect greater than observed in subjects not given anything?

(continued)

[dannyboy15]

It's patently obvious that if a person is a perfectly logical machine, the answer will be no

- but we know that people aren't that simple. Its not hard to see how the 'empty' pill could have an effect on the more unconcious, superstitious part of a persons brain, and therefore on their recovery.

I don't know whether you would strictly call this the placebo effect, but i would like to see evidence for or against it before you insult my understanding..!

does anyone know of such a study?

[bboychoco]

well, isnt giving water to a person and asking him if he feels better a nice way of doing it? Essentially that is what Homeopathy is. But that doesnt justify the use of it.. I mean seriously do you want a study to justify that it is ok to give out water to dying and ailing people cos well they are brought up to believe that it works? (cont.)

[bboychoco]

(if you havent been brought up to believe(or been in close proximity of someone who has experienced it) in Homeopathy or other such superstitious practices, I doubt you can appreciate it, let alone pay a *doctor* thousands of dollars to *treat* you)

[Gorguruga]

Interesting but nothing new I think, other than recent empirical research. The connection to Yoga is beyond coincidental.

[bdf2718]

Very interesting. Reminds me of a New Scientist article some years ago about marathon runners who husbanded their resources. But if they could be fooled into thinking the situation was other than they thought then they could bring forth reserves they would have sworn weren't there.

[IdleGod]

Oh god... Using placebo only for anti-depression? Thats a massive mistake. The psychological reason that suicide rates increase is that they take the drug, it doesn't work, and go "nothing can help me". If there is no actual drug, that rate will skyrocket.

[Mjhavok]

I might have to read that Darwinian medicine book because this guy sounds kooky in this video. Is he really suggesting subterfuge and deception should be a doctors trade?

[torus2]

No, not at all...

He states several times that he thinks the HEALING power of alternative medicine comes from a social, Darwinian source. He's saying that real (non-quack) medicine should adopt certain aspects of these alternative medicines, because they have a real effect (placing patients in a comforting environment, giving them a psychological license to use their immune system. That's what he's saying.

[uk997]

never under estimate the healing power of a placeo.

[Mjhavok]

Allowing us to cure ourselves? What is he talking about? I don't care how nice a doctor is to you it won't cure Malaria without medication.

[StevIestallion]

That's a good point, but not everything is in the same group as malaria. At the other end of the scale are things like pain, depression, high blood pressure which will be responsive to the placebo effect.

[Mjhavok]

An immunologist watching this would be cringing themselves to a nub.

[Pentero]

Full support to prof. Dawkins but...this is SO NOT UNCUT.

[Theologikos]

Very interesting conversation!