Luftwaffe BF109 attacking Soviet Ships (Jul 1941)

[Rautaristi86]

Smash the reds!!!88

[mybluebelly]

Steamboat willie!

[DrHavoc1]

Burn in hell for all eternity, nazi whores.

[MrOhaiMark]

@DrHavoc1

Have fun knowing Russia killed more innocent people :)

[MrZapas123]

Go Luftwaffe!!!

[SantaBremor]

Гады

[KirbyComicsVids]

yay the soviets die, and the Germans prevail!

[the82spartans]

I believe Marshall Zhukov was a good commander for what he had to work with in Soviet Russia.

Motherland was too important to worry about the high number of commrads killed in action.

The original "human wave"?  Maybe not...

Still, crude but effective if the enemy starts to run out of bullets.

[pacman5213]

didn't he say quantity was a quality in it's own.

[the82spartans]

I don't know, but I would bet he did!

I guess then that is true for the number of Sherman tanks in WWII.

Just produce more of tanks, even if they are not the best tank in the field of battle.

Numbers do count for something, especially in war.

[11month11day11our]

And don't forget that the US had great problems defeating the japs, for the Soviet the jabs was a walkover,,,, in the thirties, as well as in the Manchurian war in 1945

[MetaVita]

Except one small thing: The Pacific was a NAVAL war, not a ground war. Even though there was some ground fighting, it was the sea battles which determined the victor.

This is a completely different conflict, and difficulty with a sea war should not be equated with difficulty in a land campaign.

That being said, I think the US did a very impressive job against what was considered to be the best navy in the world at the time.

[Boblekonvolutt]

Having been at war for almost 5 years, the Japanese military was running short on just about everything. The navy was hampered by lack of fuel, and the production of aircraft and new ships could not keep up with the losses.

In 1942, the US built more new aircraft carriers, battleships and destroyers than Japan did through the whole war. By the beginning of 1943, the US navy was superior in just about every way.

I think the US underperformed, at least compared to their potential.

[MetaVita]

What losses? The Japanese had been at war for 5 years against completely incompetent opponents (China Manchuria) in a non-naval theater. Where were they losing ships and airplanes? The cactus air force, although they did a great job, hardly ruined Japanese air power.

I think it would be foolish to claim that the Japanese military at the onset of Pearl Harbor was anything less than a formidable opponent and a fully capable fighting force.

[MetaVita]

And as far as how the US performed post '42, beyond this point the Americans defeated the Japanese at every battle and basically routed them back to the mainland. How more effective can you be? The Japanese never really even mounted any successful counter attacks.

[Boblekonvolutt]

Losses against the US. And underestimating the problems with fighting in China is the same as underestimating the problems with invading the USSR. It's a huge logistical process to keep it going.

In 1942 and 1943, the US built a staggering 14 times as many aircraft carriers as Japan. Along with a dozen times the cruisers and destroyers it was enough to outnumber and outgun the japs.

Yet it took close to 3 years, I call that underperforming.

[MetaVita]

Really, if we are to look at a force that squandered it's technological advantages, man power, and personnel, you need look no further than the soviets in World War 2.

It's very fortunate that they have such a big country with an inexhaustible supply of cannon fodder. Yet even with this, they still needed American production to prop them up because they were so incompetent.

Sure, the soviets learned some "tactics" after '43 only after being beaten for 2-3 years by the same opponent.

[Boblekonvolutt]

Quit with the faux-expert style.

The Soviet Union during the war was hardly a country united under Stalin. Great purge and all? An army is as good as its leaders, and if three quarters of them suddenly disappear, you're gonna be in some trouble. Especially if you don't expect war.

I think you missed the whole scorched earth thing, that was the whole point. Faced with a superior enemy, make them overreach and then fight.

And what technological advantages did the USSR have over Germany?

[MetaVita]

If a military decides to equip it's soldiers with bb-guns and darts for weapons, it shows incompetence. If it's leaders make a massive strategic mistake and lose 50% of it's fighting forces from stupidity, it shows incompetence. Likewise, if they are stupid enough to kill 80% of the officers, it shows incompetence. So yes, my comment still stands that the Russians in WW2 were largely incompetent and were saved by the swarm of humanity, T-34's, and American made equipment.

[MetaVita]

I mean honestly, how can you criticize American effectiveness in the pacific, and then laud the Russians in WW2.

The Germans despite being outnumbered, under-supplied, using outdated small arms, out-tanked for most of the war, using sparse air support, and lacking artillery en-masse still managed to constantly out smart and out soldier Russians throughout the war. I mean honestly, without American supplies, it could have been a very different picture.

[MetaVita]

If American Generals today used the same tactics as the Russians, they would be tried for war crimes and negligence of duty.

Hell, at best Zhukov probably would have been fired if he were American. Good thing Stalin didn't care about human life.

[Boblekonvolutt]

Wow, what an incompetent post.

You can't compare any situation the US has ever been in to four million pissed off Germans invading your country. Also, modern warfare is incredibly different from that of 70 years ago.

But please, do go ahead and tell about the Russian generals war crime tactics.

[MetaVita]

You can certainly compare the level of tactics, strategy, professionalism, soldiery, "espirit", and effectiveness of a force possessed by a given military regardless of circumstances.

I certainly agree warfare is different today, I was just trying to make a general point that Zhukov was, at best, a mediocre commander that employed only the most basic principles of warfare predominantly learned from the Germans.

[Boblekonvolutt]

Normally you don't try to make points by supporting them with unrelated claims that you in turn can't support.

If you must compare them, at least factor in said circumstances. Avoiding them makes for a useless comparison. The US has NEVER fought a war like that.

Also, the Germans invaded the Soviet union well equiped in every way, the USSR being the opposite. 2 dead russians for every german.

Zhukov had been a successful officer for 20 years before the Germans invaded and did well in WW2.

[DmitriyUA]

To remind you, it were 2 dead soviet (to be more precise 1.8) to every axis on eastern front. Not 2 russian to every German, that ratio was 1.3/1 in favour of the Germans.

And Metavita, don't talk shit.

[Boblekonvolutt]

You strip away the other (non-german) axis losses, and come up with a lower ratio?

Or is it a distinction between soviets and russians?

[DmitriyUA]

No not a lower, I said 1.3 russians dead for 1 german dead. That's definatly in disfavour for the Russians in this case.

So in total

Soviet-axis dead: 1.8/1.

Russian-German: 1.3/1.

Soviet army wasnt purely Russian, but i guess you knew it already.

[Boblekonvolutt]

Yeah, it wasn't called the (Soviet) Union for nothing. I have no good info on casualties from different parts of the Soviet Union, so more about that would be appreciated.

[DmitriyUA]

Ok, i''l send you some info. You know the problem is that the cold war helped to create many myths and disformation about eastern front. I'll send you details a guy posted (he said it very well).

[kugellehr]

neither was the German. at one point it had up to 30 or so % non germans in its ranks...not including axis nations like romania or hungary

[DmitriyUA]

And that point would have been when? at the end, when every one that could hold a rifle was conscripted for the last defence of Germany?

[kugellehr]

actually no. Germans recruited many ukranians, russians, as well as Norweigians, dutch, french, etc etc etc. Like I said at one point large chunks of German forces were non German...either units made from Ukrainians, Russians, latvians and lithuanians and basically anyone else willing to fight the communists. Not to mention SS divisions raised in France, Netherlands, Scandanavia, Yugoslavia...it was not just a German effort.

[DmitriyUA]

If we speak ethincly, than in the Russian army alone there were many sodiers with another ethnicity tha Russian. I'm not gonna name then, cause there are just too many.

But that what you said only sthrenges my point, since then the ratio would be closer to 1/1 (R/G) then 1.3/1 (R/G).

[pocketsurfer]

I feel they didn't have the time to train those wast amounts of troops to any sophistication, they did not have an option for elaborate tactics

Mass vs Quality,, two different means to an end.

I read that before the war German officers and NCOs where trained one grade above their own

making it easier later keep up the quality of command as losses grew.

Compare that to Stalin who purged his army of any talent.

But, Stalin learned to let his Commanders fight the war, Hitler never did.

[kugellehr]

well said

[DmitriyUA]

You don't have to feel, you have to know what you're talking about.

[pocketsurfer]

just by answering me with that attitude tells me you are not even worthy of this answer.

[DmitriyUA]

Please don't come with such phrases. You haven't got the slightest idea with whom you are talking now.

This can be rude but : you are not worthy of this discusson, if you are only going to tell us things based on what you feel. Come with decent statements, proof, sources, ... and write something with decent chosen words. And we can speak and listen

You might know what you're talking about, but please don't start with "I feel that...". That's already a bad start. No offence buddy.

[pocketsurfer]

Proof?,, what proof? by whom? oooh you mean other people except me.. i see, ok.

read Anabasis by Xenophon after that i might be able to communicate with you.

[DmitriyUA]

If you are only capable to communicate with people that have to proof something to you... then only god may help you.

Man, i've studied on Ancient Greece myself. And i might surprise you but i did read Xenophon (though not anabasis neither katabasis (-Thalassa, thalassa! inside joke...:)), Herodotos, Demosthenes, Homeros (Ilias and Oddyseus), Platon, Pythagoras, Anaxagoras, Demokritos, Zenon, Sappho, Aeschulos, Sophocles, Euripides, and so on and so on,... from proza to epic, poetry and drama.

[pocketsurfer]

man, how the hell can you then talk to me about having to KNOW what i was talking about if you now are a historian, YOU MUST know that we can only do educated guesses,, knowing that was the kicker for me, if you think you know anything i cant help YOU. I feel, i take all what i know up to that point and make an educated guess, then i write, i feel,, and you jump me for it, insisting in KNOWLEDGE, when there really is no such thing,

Goodbye.. im done with you.

[ww2footage]

@pocketsurfer people beleive , gods know

[11month11day11our]

I don't think the US forces have had chance against the Soviets in 45, unless they have used nuclear arms. US forces had in the ending month of the war 2:1 losses against the German forces, on the ground as well as in the air.

And actually, the red air force had fighters who could challenge the US ones, like the La-7 as well as more combat experienced pilots, who later kicked yankee ass in Korea.

But that said, I am very! great full to the US, for helping the Europeans defeating Hitler.

[MetaVita]

Russian pilots kicked yankee ass in Korea? Uhm... no.

Korea was one of the most lopsided air wars of the 20th century. The F-86 downed 6-8 times their number in Migs. the F-86F in particular was king of the skies for that time period.

[MetaVita]

And again, in WW2 the Americans had far superior planes than Russians. the P-51 and lightning would tear apart any equally skilled Russian pilot. Not to mention that we had a heavy bomber fleet that could completely flatten a 20 mile squared zone day or night. The Russians had no heavy bombers... Air power > All. And the US had the best air power.

[MetaVita]

Russian artillery was allocated at I think the company or battalion level to each army division. Therefore the ground troops were unable to call down artillery when they needed it. It had to be controlled by the Captains on up. Americans basically had artillery armies that could be utilized by ANYONE sergeant level and up to knock out any position of resistance when needed... this is a very important distinction which made our artillery VERY deadly (as the Germans well know).

[MetaVita]

Also, our artillery support was so good that each platoon commander could call down "saturating" fire within 10 minutes of spotting the enemy. This could destroy entire companies.

Combine that with the atomic bomb and an air force with thousands of "super heavy" bombers, and I think the Russians numbers quickly become less and less significant.

[retardedspacealien]

well the soviets were good at massing arty aswell 10000 of arty guns they had firing at berlin + those superheavy bombers couldnt reach the russian industries deep in russian territory

[MetaVita]

Good point, however such concentrations of artillery took the Russians a long time to build up. Furthermore, artillery of this scale was only devoted to especially large and important operations (Berlin).

American artillery operated with a distinct advantage in that every platoon commander had a primitive wireless radio. Our artillery network was also much more coordinated and integrated to the needs of our soldiers.

[retardedspacealien]

yes well depends really because mobile arty is far easier to set up and move with the troops (katusyahs,hummels,priests) but arty isnt everything you need good spotters to it work effectively because at normandy the germans camo`d almost all there heavy guns and tanks and only moved @ night

[MetaVita]

Well, that's kind of my point. In the American army, essentially every platoon operated as a spotter "in force" for the artillery...

And as far as mobility and flexibility: Americans were always number 1 in this category. We had more trucks, SP guns, ships, and planes than we knew what to do with. In fact, so many that we gave tens of thousands to the Russians.

[retardedspacealien]

but think realistic i dont think the allies would be able to conquer the ussr no1 ever did,well the germans almost did if it wasnt for hitlers interferences. and yes the soviet airforce sucked in 1945 i mean the soviet airforce was almost wiped out in 1941 and @ kursk the soviet airforce suffered huge losses but there numbers were too great for the luftwaffe to keep up with and in 1945 the soviet airforce had almost no competition from the luftwaffe

[MetaVita]

Well, I don't think the allies would ever really want to "conquer" the USSR. What they would have wanted to do was limit their influence in Eastern Europe. And in this capacity, I think it was well within their power to do so.

[retardedspacealien]

well yeah but if they wanted to secure eastern europe they would be at war with the soviets so they either had to go defend or go on over to the attack not to mention former east bloc countries in europe are a bloody mess if you compere them to western europe and scandinavia

[Makedonwow]

"The secret of politics? Make a good treaty with Russia."

O.V.B.

[agumon12]

we shouldve turned our guns against the russians with the help of the german POW's after the war.

[nolifemerc]

yes its to bad germania ost the war, i bet u regret that now.

[agumon12]

not really, no. im glad the nazis lost, but you know what, we shouldve joined forces with the POW's and the remainder of the Allies and fought the Soviets. the world would be so diffrent now.

[retardedspacealien]

soviets had a better army in 1945 then the americans

[MetaVita]

I wouldn't say that. The Soviets may have had more veteran units and better tanks, but the Americans had a far superior air force (emphasis), artillery (emphasis), small arms, navy, and logistics coordination than the soviets.

Not to mention that our green soldiers were better trained and equipped than the regular soviet infantryman. Also our tank technology was quickly approaching that of the Soviets and by 1945 we were already building tanks that could stand up to soviet armor.

[retardedspacealien]

yes that might be true but i mean west allies still used the sherman as main battle tank how can a sherman even stand up to a t34 ? let alone josef stalin tanks and the soviets had far more soldiers not better trained but we all know numbers>quality and yes germans and west allies should have joint together and fought the soviets i mean look at eastern europe nowadays... its a fucking mess.

[MetaVita]

Oh yes,

well, the Sherman actually could "stand up" to a T-34. Both tanks used a 76 mm gun. And a 76 was enough to take out a T-34. Just not any of the other larger tanks you mentioned.

That being said, I can't stress how effective our air power and artillery was. Give me an armada of close support P-47s and P-51s and you can turn an entire Russian tank army into burning metal. and the P-51 was 10 times greater of an aircraft than any the Russians had.

[gravelandx88]

The soviets were pretty much fucked without ally support.

[Draious]

it was more the other way around ;)

[gravelandx88]

what do you mean?

[Draious]

The americans where pretty much fucked if germany wheren't focused on invading russia

[rossandzach]

so, after alot of russia being invaded, the only thing that saved them was d day that brought a lot of german attention

[unkowndrunkenfrankli]

r u stupid? soviet army was the largest army in the world...larger than all armies combines together at the time....it had almost endless supply of troops- and materials..their desire for revenge and sheer manpower is what won the war..what ally support did we have when we pushed u germans out of our homeland and back into germany?

[Hayreniq5]

FUCK =hitler

[Dogmeat7]

like the Soviets were any Better lol.

[pp12021]

another great footage! thanks, 5 stars