GOP also "opposes" the public option because they claim that "it's just the beginning of a single payer system".
That argument defies common sense for this reason: if partisan politics makes it so difficult just to get an optional public insurance plan, how does any rational person believe that the gov't could somehow "sneak in" so massive and fundamental a change as going to a single payer system?
It's just another bogus "scare tactic" by the GOP.
ObamaCare plans on adding in the monetary value of the government's plan to each individual's yearly income as per their federal income taxes. At the end of the year 2010, 48% of Americans are exempt from federal income taxes. (Obviously those are the ones taking ObamaCare as well because it is bad quality).
This means the rest of Americans not exempt pay for all thsoe who are to go through ObamaCare which by definition = socialism. That is simply a fact, not a debate.
What's a fact is that a necessary social program is not socialism. It's a social program.
The free market and "for-profit" system is an efficient economic model, but is just an economic model & not applicable to all goals. Don't elevate it to the position of an exact science or a "GOD".
yeah that is B/S.. It's not right to make me pay for someone elses healthcare plans. My family struggles as it is. Look into Australia, UK and Canadian health care systems (i.e. how poor the quality is).
That's the beauty of spreading the risk pool - the basic principle of "insurance".
Everyone pays, & the young & healthy in their peak earning years pay more so that if the get a debilitating illness or injury, or lose their job - they still have access to affordable health care. Self-centered buggers like you are too narrow minded & self-centered to think outside the box.
It's United States of America, not Socialist States of America. There is much better ways to give affordable health care than creating a government monopoly. Tort reform and interstate policy buying would alone fix the system and allow for the same -- great -- health care that America provides.
You need to think for yourself -- don't agree with everything Hussein Obama tells you.
You do realize, don't you, that the h.c. reform bills set up an "exchange" that effectively allows cross state competition between private insurance company plans?
Of course you don't, because Fox News & the GOP don't like to talk about that.
Don't tell me about the Canadian system. Though I have lived for periods in the U.S., I have lived most of my 62 years in Canada, in 6 cities in 3 different provinces. I wouldn't trade the Canadian system for that of the U.S. in a million years. I have always had excellent h.c. & it disgust me listening to U.S. anti-h.c. videos & comments that completely inaccurately describe the Canadian system.
Well as it happens, Canadians in general feel the American health care system is better. In fact, we have seen an increase of 11% more Canadians using American health care this year.
And your country's health care research organization said that there is a 3 month wait period for most Canadian health visits. When I want to go see the doctor (top educated doctors here) I call the day of.
You say "Can.'s in general feel the U.S. h.c. syst.. is better". You are full of it: .
2009 poll by Nanos Research:86.2% of Canadians surveyed supported or strongly supported "public solutions to..health care. 2009 Harris/Decima poll: 82% of Canadians preferred their h.c. system to the one in the U.S., more than ten times as many as the 8% stating a preference for a US-style h.c system.. Strategic Counsel survey in 2008: 91% of Canadians preferring their h.c. system to that of the U.S
UHC was first introduced in Canada in the early 50's, but anti-h.c reform propaganda in the U.S. loves to smear the Cn'd system by exaggerating the more recent increases in wait times & ignoring all the advantages of the Cn'd system.
Canada, like most countries, could use more doctors, but both the problem & the solutions are independent of the universal health care financing system.
@megarational I do watch Glenn Beck, but I also listen to Rachel Maddow (for balance) and Russia Today/France24 (for foreign perspective). The truth lies somewhere between all these views
.
One major reason I want to keep U.S. Private Care is the same reason I want to have 30 different carmakers, not just one. We have some sucky hospitals here (run by KaiserP), and I want to be able to choose the better non-KaiserP hospitals. I don't want a monopoly where all hospitals are run by Congress
@electrictroy2010 Your argument about "choice of caregiver" makes no sense. Do you not understand that the issue is a public non-profit INSURANCE system versus a private "for profit" insurance system?
Also, your eg runs counter to the facts. In Canada I choose my doctor and no bureaucrat, gov't or insur. corp, interferes with the treatment my Doc prescribes.
In your syst HMO's often dictate what doc you can see, what hosp to use, what treatments are allowed, what lab your hosp has to use etc
@megarational I admit I don't know much about Canada, because I've mostly studied the UK's health system. They have multiple doctors, but all answer to the same boss - a government agency called NICE which routinely says "no" to procedures (to save money). It's essentially a monopoly
.
I have to deal with the Comcast monopoly and don't like it. I prefer as many choices as possible. Right now I can choose any of ~30 hospitals - it's better than 'one choice for all' like UK has
@megarational It is so great in Canada, the 10`s of thousands of doctors moved to the US. Per 100K people, 388 angioplasties in the US, only 81 performed in Canada, coronary bypass in the US is 203, only 65 performed in Canada, 87 dialysis in the US, only 46 per 100K performed in Canada. It is free though! You know, the service you dont get is at a reasonable price.
@luvcheney1 The comparisons of the Canadian & US h.c. systems was already beat to death in page after page of comments earlier in this thread. Go back & read them. I don't have time for some goof like you.
@megarational Ya know insurance really isn't that expensive. I get "catastrophic" health insurance for $1300 a year. Basically I pay all costs below $20,000 and they cover the rest (like if I get cancer or heart attack or other major illness)
.
So basically I pay the same amount for healthcare as most people for Cable TV+Cellphone. All this stuff about government health is unnecessary
@electrictroy2010 1.b) It also found that policyholders with breast cancer, lymphoma and more than 1,000 other conditions were targeted for rescission and that employees were praised in performance reviews for terminating the policies of customers with expensive illnesses.
@megarational Sure, who wouldnt praise an employee for catching some lying motherfucker who pretended to be healthy, so they can steal from an insurance company?
An investigation by the House Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations showed that h. insurers WellPoint Inc., UnitedHealth Group and Assurant Inc. canceled the coverage of more than 20,000 people, allowing the co's to avoid paying more than $300M in med claims over a 5yr period.
@electrictroy2010 The Senate commerce committee released a report that confirmed health insurers have been robbing consumers by forcing them to pay for billions of dollars worth of treatment they weren't supposed to pay for.
They do this, witnesses including former industry executives said, by using artfully complex documents meant to thwart and mislead consumers about their own benefits and by peddling "junk" policies that don't cover what they claim to.
@electrictroy2010 "$20,000 deductible? Holy shit. Want to know what my deductible is? Zero.
No claims to file, no paperwork hoops, no HMO dictating what treatment I can have, what hospital go go to, no "caps", no fear of losing coverage if I lose my job or develop health issues. And the great thing about it is that the amount extra I pay in taxes is less than what you fools pay in premiums, deductibles, co-payments etc.
You idiots have a Stockholm syndrome attachment to insur corp's.
@electrictroy2010 One other point. It's not "gov't health care". It's only a public hc FIANANCING system, as opposed to a private "for profit" financing system. Doctors & hosp's are still private.
"Health care reform is government takeover of the health care system" rated politifacts 2010 "lie of the year".
The corp whore GOP & their propaganda arm Fox was again successful in using propaganda to get people to vote against their own best interests and vote instead in the interests of corp's.
@electrictroy2010 Me too. I pay for my wife and myself ( I`m 60 though) , $360/ mo, for $8,300 annual deductible between my wife and I together. And, my health wasnt so great, and I pay 150% of the healthy rate.
CNN time would have been better spent explaining that the GOP is opposing the public option for three manufactured "reasons". 1) "It wouldn't be fair because the gov't would be both player & umpire". Answer: It's a bogus argument since any rules or reg.s would apply equally to private plans & the pub. option insur. plan. 2) "It would drive private insur. co.s out of business". Answer: It has not done so in any other nation., Plans still differ in coverage & not eveyone would chose same plan.
these people are so slick.what's alarming is that we're even talking about it.obama and all of his cabinet belong in straight jackets.
mindrapeart 2 years ago
GOP also "opposes" the public option because they claim that "it's just the beginning of a single payer system".
That argument defies common sense for this reason: if partisan politics makes it so difficult just to get an optional public insurance plan, how does any rational person believe that the gov't could somehow "sneak in" so massive and fundamental a change as going to a single payer system?
It's just another bogus "scare tactic" by the GOP.
megarational 2 years ago
ObamaCare plans on adding in the monetary value of the government's plan to each individual's yearly income as per their federal income taxes. At the end of the year 2010, 48% of Americans are exempt from federal income taxes. (Obviously those are the ones taking ObamaCare as well because it is bad quality).
This means the rest of Americans not exempt pay for all thsoe who are to go through ObamaCare which by definition = socialism. That is simply a fact, not a debate.
MaskedPope 2 years ago
What's a fact is that a necessary social program is not socialism. It's a social program.
The free market and "for-profit" system is an efficient economic model, but is just an economic model & not applicable to all goals. Don't elevate it to the position of an exact science or a "GOD".
megarational 2 years ago
We're talking about the public option you twit.
Gov'.t can offer subsidies with or without the public option.
Gov'.t can tax you with or without the public option.
And by the way, anyone who uses the term "Obamacare" is just a propaganda slinger, not a person interested in rational debate.
megarational 2 years ago
yeah that is B/S.. It's not right to make me pay for someone elses healthcare plans. My family struggles as it is. Look into Australia, UK and Canadian health care systems (i.e. how poor the quality is).
jrl787 2 years ago
That's the beauty of spreading the risk pool - the basic principle of "insurance".
Everyone pays, & the young & healthy in their peak earning years pay more so that if the get a debilitating illness or injury, or lose their job - they still have access to affordable health care. Self-centered buggers like you are too narrow minded & self-centered to think outside the box.
megarational 2 years ago
It's United States of America, not Socialist States of America. There is much better ways to give affordable health care than creating a government monopoly. Tort reform and interstate policy buying would alone fix the system and allow for the same -- great -- health care that America provides.
You need to think for yourself -- don't agree with everything Hussein Obama tells you.
MaskedPope 2 years ago
You do realize, don't you, that the h.c. reform bills set up an "exchange" that effectively allows cross state competition between private insurance company plans?
Of course you don't, because Fox News & the GOP don't like to talk about that.
megarational 2 years ago
Don't tell me about the Canadian system. Though I have lived for periods in the U.S., I have lived most of my 62 years in Canada, in 6 cities in 3 different provinces. I wouldn't trade the Canadian system for that of the U.S. in a million years. I have always had excellent h.c. & it disgust me listening to U.S. anti-h.c. videos & comments that completely inaccurately describe the Canadian system.
megarational 2 years ago
Well as it happens, Canadians in general feel the American health care system is better. In fact, we have seen an increase of 11% more Canadians using American health care this year.
And your country's health care research organization said that there is a 3 month wait period for most Canadian health visits. When I want to go see the doctor (top educated doctors here) I call the day of.
MaskedPope 2 years ago
You say "Can.'s in general feel the U.S. h.c. syst.. is better". You are full of it: .
2009 poll by Nanos Research:86.2% of Canadians surveyed supported or strongly supported "public solutions to..health care. 2009 Harris/Decima poll: 82% of Canadians preferred their h.c. system to the one in the U.S., more than ten times as many as the 8% stating a preference for a US-style h.c system.. Strategic Counsel survey in 2008: 91% of Canadians preferring their h.c. system to that of the U.S
megarational 2 years ago
UHC was first introduced in Canada in the early 50's, but anti-h.c reform propaganda in the U.S. loves to smear the Cn'd system by exaggerating the more recent increases in wait times & ignoring all the advantages of the Cn'd system.
Canada, like most countries, could use more doctors, but both the problem & the solutions are independent of the universal health care financing system.
megarational 2 years ago
@megarational If Canada has the same problems as the US system, why should we switch-over to Canadian-style gov't run care? It doesn't solve anything
.
electrictroy2010 4 months ago
Comment removed
megarational 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@electrictroy2010 Apparently you can't even read one paragraph. Go back & read the advantages of public hc coverage in my comment.
To that I'll add some more relative disadvantages of the US system
- costs a whopping 7% of GDP more.
- tens of thousands dying from lack of h.c. coverage
- 50 million uninsured & tens of millions more underinsured
- hc. costs a major cause of personal bankruptcy, and a great many of those were people who thought they had hc coverage.
megarational 4 months ago
@electrictroy2010 I apologize for any "snarkyness" in my comments to you. On reading your comments, you included no insults, just questions.
However I am used to dealing with foul mouthed brain dead trolls parroting Fox Fiction sound bites as if they thought of them themselves.
You may be one of them, but I shouldn't make assumptions, hence the apology.
megarational 4 months ago
@megarational I do watch Glenn Beck, but I also listen to Rachel Maddow (for balance) and Russia Today/France24 (for foreign perspective). The truth lies somewhere between all these views
.
One major reason I want to keep U.S. Private Care is the same reason I want to have 30 different carmakers, not just one. We have some sucky hospitals here (run by KaiserP), and I want to be able to choose the better non-KaiserP hospitals. I don't want a monopoly where all hospitals are run by Congress
:-)
electrictroy2010 4 months ago
@electrictroy2010 Your argument about "choice of caregiver" makes no sense. Do you not understand that the issue is a public non-profit INSURANCE system versus a private "for profit" insurance system?
Also, your eg runs counter to the facts. In Canada I choose my doctor and no bureaucrat, gov't or insur. corp, interferes with the treatment my Doc prescribes.
In your syst HMO's often dictate what doc you can see, what hosp to use, what treatments are allowed, what lab your hosp has to use etc
megarational 4 months ago
@megarational I admit I don't know much about Canada, because I've mostly studied the UK's health system. They have multiple doctors, but all answer to the same boss - a government agency called NICE which routinely says "no" to procedures (to save money). It's essentially a monopoly
.
I have to deal with the Comcast monopoly and don't like it. I prefer as many choices as possible. Right now I can choose any of ~30 hospitals - it's better than 'one choice for all' like UK has
.
electrictroy2010 4 months ago
@electrictroy2010 Canada's doctors are private practitioner professionals, who answer to neither HMO"s nor gov't.
megarational 4 months ago
@megarational It is so great in Canada, the 10`s of thousands of doctors moved to the US. Per 100K people, 388 angioplasties in the US, only 81 performed in Canada, coronary bypass in the US is 203, only 65 performed in Canada, 87 dialysis in the US, only 46 per 100K performed in Canada. It is free though! You know, the service you dont get is at a reasonable price.
luvcheney1 4 months ago
@luvcheney1 The comparisons of the Canadian & US h.c. systems was already beat to death in page after page of comments earlier in this thread. Go back & read them. I don't have time for some goof like you.
megarational 4 months ago
@megarational Ya know insurance really isn't that expensive. I get "catastrophic" health insurance for $1300 a year. Basically I pay all costs below $20,000 and they cover the rest (like if I get cancer or heart attack or other major illness)
.
So basically I pay the same amount for healthcare as most people for Cable TV+Cellphone. All this stuff about government health is unnecessary
.
electrictroy2010 4 months ago
Comment removed
megarational 4 months ago
@electrictroy2010 1.b) It also found that policyholders with breast cancer, lymphoma and more than 1,000 other conditions were targeted for rescission and that employees were praised in performance reviews for terminating the policies of customers with expensive illnesses.
megarational 4 months ago
@megarational Sure, who wouldnt praise an employee for catching some lying motherfucker who pretended to be healthy, so they can steal from an insurance company?
luvcheney1 4 months ago
@electrictroy2010 1.a) Los Angeles Times June 17, 2009|Lisa Girion
WAshington ...
An investigation by the House Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations showed that h. insurers WellPoint Inc., UnitedHealth Group and Assurant Inc. canceled the coverage of more than 20,000 people, allowing the co's to avoid paying more than $300M in med claims over a 5yr period.
megarational 4 months ago
@electrictroy2010 The Senate commerce committee released a report that confirmed health insurers have been robbing consumers by forcing them to pay for billions of dollars worth of treatment they weren't supposed to pay for.
They do this, witnesses including former industry executives said, by using artfully complex documents meant to thwart and mislead consumers about their own benefits and by peddling "junk" policies that don't cover what they claim to.
megarational 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@electrictroy2010 "$20,000 deductible? Holy shit. Want to know what my deductible is? Zero.
No claims to file, no paperwork hoops, no HMO dictating what treatment I can have, what hospital go go to, no "caps", no fear of losing coverage if I lose my job or develop health issues. And the great thing about it is that the amount extra I pay in taxes is less than what you fools pay in premiums, deductibles, co-payments etc.
You idiots have a Stockholm syndrome attachment to insur corp's.
megarational 4 months ago
@electrictroy2010 One other point. It's not "gov't health care". It's only a public hc FIANANCING system, as opposed to a private "for profit" financing system. Doctors & hosp's are still private.
"Health care reform is government takeover of the health care system" rated politifacts 2010 "lie of the year".
The corp whore GOP & their propaganda arm Fox was again successful in using propaganda to get people to vote against their own best interests and vote instead in the interests of corp's.
megarational 4 months ago
@electrictroy2010 Me too. I pay for my wife and myself ( I`m 60 though) , $360/ mo, for $8,300 annual deductible between my wife and I together. And, my health wasnt so great, and I pay 150% of the healthy rate.
luvcheney1 4 months ago
CNN time would have been better spent explaining that the GOP is opposing the public option for three manufactured "reasons". 1) "It wouldn't be fair because the gov't would be both player & umpire". Answer: It's a bogus argument since any rules or reg.s would apply equally to private plans & the pub. option insur. plan. 2) "It would drive private insur. co.s out of business". Answer: It has not done so in any other nation., Plans still differ in coverage & not eveyone would chose same plan.
megarational 2 years ago